Implied Rimming (feat. George Civeris)

• Comedian and host of the podcast StraightioLab George Civeris joins Fran & Rose to discuss iconic queer(?) television show Will & Grace
• And a clip from this week's Patreon episode about gay pirate erotica. Subscribe for weekly bonus episodes!

Are you a Will, Grace, Jack or Karen? Tag our finsta @likeavirgin42069

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
We're actually going to add a laugh track into this episode,
perfect so that everyone knows when we're being funny.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Right.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
That's part of my rider whenever I do a podcast,
is that I need to come laughter.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
She's sheen Ami, no ma, not my name? Yo? What
is your childhood? I am a chuck, yo?

Speaker 4 (00:30):
What's going down?

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Before one.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Round? Welcome to like a virgin. I'm rose dom you.
Fran is not here at the moment because she is
on fire Island for no know the millionth time this.

(00:54):
I was going to say this summer, but it's not
even summer anymore. It's literally fall. We took a few
weeks off, but we are back today with a brand
new episode and it's a good one. We've been holding
onto this for a while. Today we have an episode
with George Siveris, comedian and host of Stradio Lab, which
Frand and I were on a couple of months ago.

(01:15):
Definitely go listen to that. And we talked to George
all about Will and Grace. Yes, this is all about
musty TV. This is must listen podcasting. Will and Grace
is obviously, you know, very iconic and like formative gay media,

(01:38):
and we had a lot of fun talking about it.
So without further ado, here comes George to talk with
us all about Will and Grace and Jack and Karen.
I'm imagining that as one of those T shirts where
it's like, you know, the different characters listed like Harry
and Hermione and Ron. Oh, it all comes back to

(02:02):
Harry Potter, doesn't it. Do you want even more like
a virgin content? Well, you should become a patron at
patreon dot com slash like a virgin. We do weekly
bonus episodes talking about you know, the TV shows, we're watching,
the books, we're reading DBD commentaries, all that good stuff.
So become a patron now and get into the gig. Honey. Okay, George,

(02:36):
I want to know are you Are you a Will,
a Jack, a Grace or a Karen?

Speaker 3 (02:41):
I mean the deepest, darkest Before I answered, let me
just say this because I sent you guys or yeah,
what if I was like I'm a Rosario Born, you know,
like through and through, I'm actually more of a Leslie
Jordan may hear rest in peace. Okay, I sent you
guys three topic and I was sort of looking at

(03:01):
them and I was like, this is the most like
white faggot, like could.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Not be it was true.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
The three topics were literally a forgotten Madonna album, Will
and Grace, forgotten by the world maybe but by me,
and and the which I appreciate.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
And the third one was Joan.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Rivers And I was like, this is because there is
a world in which I could have tried to be
like you know, I like you know, highbrow things too.
I could have been like b York, you know Apple,
But I was like, no, I want to look into
like the depths of my depravity, of like what are
the things that truly, if I'm being honest with myself,
like affected me, even if they're embarrassing now. And and sadly, no,

(03:41):
I appreciate that. That was very brave of you.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
And when our producer texted us, I did hear the
sound of a giant fan with the words clash.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Whenever I sound on an email.

Speaker 5 (03:54):
Yes, it was giving, like it was giving like the
gay it It was like, all are the most extreme
versions of like that of the culture. But like I
actually am curious because they I thought they were great topics.
I had no I cast no judgment on that trio.
But what is aside from being gay? What is the
through line of those three cultural objects, because they said,

(04:14):
I felt like I knew I learned so much about
you just by the volunteering of those things.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
I mean there's a sort of like grotesque ye in,
sort of like the late nineties early aughts, white gay
male It's like when it was starting to peek into
the mainstream. And I feel like Will and Grace was
part of that. I feel like people like, I mean,
Joan Rivers has such a rich history without you know,

(04:41):
she's not just a gay ac on, She's many other
things and whatever. But like, in terms of my life,
it was like these female comedians like Joan Rivers and
Kathy Griffin and Margaret cho it was like people that
appealed to basically the the Jack McFarlands of the world.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Hmmm.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
I was gonna say that when you presented us with
those three options, I was thinking of them as sort
of a maiden mother Crone archetype. But Madonna and Joan
Rivers are both the Krone, and they're also both the Mother. Okay,
but I still want to know who are you of it?

Speaker 3 (05:15):
I mean again, I mean the really sort of human
If I'm being honest with myself. The humiliating thing of
it is that I am a will like I am
like a basic sort of as much as I would
like to pretend otherwise, a sort of like on the
way to assimilation, white gay guy who works a desk job.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (05:38):
Like it's I mean every I mean, yes, I sort of.
You could argue I'm a creative like Jack, but it's
with a sort of like I'm not like punk rock
doing cabaret shows like I am very much doing it.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
By the book, was Jack punk?

Speaker 4 (05:52):
Right?

Speaker 2 (05:52):
I mean, listen to many he was Jack? Jack is
Jack is the vomit artist from is.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
A performance artist. Jack is rave culture. Jack is a
yeah jacket. Jack is Byork Yeah yeah so, And and
just if I have the bravery to be a Jack
McFarland in the sense of being b York, I would,
But instead I am Katie Perry witness Era fran fran

(06:23):
I'm gonna ask you the same question, who of the
four are you? This is the sex and the citification
of pop culture.

Speaker 4 (06:32):
I think I I think I'm Debra Messing. I think
I'm I think I'm.

Speaker 6 (06:36):
Grace Oh my god, you so I think that?

Speaker 5 (06:40):
But George you know, I see Will for you in
like a more positive way.

Speaker 4 (06:43):
Like Will is the character.

Speaker 5 (06:44):
That tends to have like the bird's eye view of
like what's going on totally, like the kind of the
one that's like, hey, can we all keep it together
for like one second, you know, but also like manages
to slide into hysteria very quick, yes, which is very
relatable and human relatable.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
He's also I mean, he's a neurotic. He feels constantly slighted.
Again I'm describing both me myself and him, you know, neurotic,
constantly slighted, sort of like really loves uh, really embraces
being gay and loves being in gay spaces, but then

(07:21):
there's always something that sets him off and he's like,
I'm god, you know, like that's sort of me at
a gay bar.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
But also like but he also like there's this thing
of like he doesn't he's not like a certain kind.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Right, well, that's the dream.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
He's a very like corporate gay like Matt, like straight
passing gay in some ways interesting for any I Okay,
I know we've we've gotten pretty far into this convo,
but for the virgins listening, I do want to just
provide a little context. We are talking about Will and Grace,
the NBC sitcom which started in nineteen ninety eight, starring

(08:00):
Deborah Messing, Eric McCormick, Megan Malalley, and Sean Hayes. It's
about a duo of best friends. I think the series
starts because Grace breaks up with the boyfriend and has
to move in with her gay friend Will, who she
at one point was in love with Taylor as old
as time. She has an assistant who's wealthy and works

(08:25):
for her for some reason, Karen. And then Will's next
door neighbor is Jack, a very flamboyant gay man who
is very much the sort of like other gays that
Will is not like, and yet he absolutely is. So yeah,
that's what the show's about. It ran from It ran

(08:45):
for eight seasons in the original run, and then came
back for I think a two season revival. Okay, so George,
your Will, fran Is Grace.

Speaker 6 (08:58):
And you are Rosario. Now I'm Karen.

Speaker 5 (09:02):
Yeah, I mean it's you're You're the character most capable
of murder.

Speaker 4 (09:08):
Splash has murdered probably.

Speaker 6 (09:12):
I'll never tell, just like Britney Murphy.

Speaker 3 (09:15):
But I also sort of appreciate Abou Karen is that
there's a sort of mythology around her, as though she's
kind of an otherworldly like she could be one hundred
and fifty years old. She like will talk about her
past and like imply that she was, you know, in
the civil in like World War two or something like.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
It's very.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
I don't know, it's very it's almost I mean, it's
a it's sort of on par with maybe not a Phoebe,
but like definitely a Samantha from Sex and the City.

Speaker 6 (09:41):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, she is a figure who we are meant to
understand like is kind of primordial and like has existed
since Adonic time. She also, like I mean, the thing is,
as with many sitcoms, if you go back and watch
the first season of Will and Grace, it's like a
little bit different than The characterizations especially are a little

(10:03):
bit different than what they evolved into. Like Karen is
not quite as much of a pill pop in Boozehound
as she would come to be in later seasons.

Speaker 6 (10:14):
I will never forget that.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
I think they did two live episodes and there's one
in which Karen there's a visual gag where Karen opens
up her pill cabinet and it's just like a shoot
with pills, like like shooting out of it, and it's
so credible.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
That episode also guest stars Matt Lower.

Speaker 6 (10:38):
Yeah, well it is.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
It's an NBC and in fact, I'm sorry to you know,
sort of go down this path. But a running gag
in that episode is that basically Karen is serving this
huge party that she throws every year that she has
never invited Will and Grace to because she's embarrassed with
them because it's all high profile people and celebrities, and
she accidentally, through I think a mistake of hers, invited

(11:00):
them this one year. So they're so excited to be
the well with celebrities, and the entirety of the live
episode takes place in the bathroom as they're each sort
of like going in and out of the room, and
Grace is doing this game where she's trying to touch
as many famous people's butts as possible, and so one
of the people she gets.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Not a part of part of the people she gets
is Matt Lower, ironically, and then like there's.

Speaker 3 (11:19):
A gag where she like kind of does it, she
like gets his butt, and then he like looks at
her and he's like, you already got me.

Speaker 4 (11:28):
That's kind of funny.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, a little bit of yeah, a little bit of
reverse foreshadowing. Well, you know, there's plenty of stuff that
was done and said over the course of Will and
Grace that would not fly now. I yesterday and preparation
for this and also for my own enjoyment, I watched
all of the Will and Grace Christmas episodes and there's

(11:50):
one in which, through hanging out with Grace, Will's mom
played by the incredible Blive Dianner, who gave us not
only this character but also Gena Paltrow, it learns the
word fagola, which is.

Speaker 6 (12:04):
Not something she should say. I wonder.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Fagela is a Yiddish word for gay person or it's
like saying fag in it is it is? Yeah, I
wonder did they ever say fag on Will and Grace?

Speaker 3 (12:17):
You know, I think, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but
I feel like they may have.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
It's entirely possible they can say it.

Speaker 6 (12:25):
They can say it.

Speaker 4 (12:26):
I don't think they've said it.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
I mean maybe the revival.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, there's a sort of like something that's gonna google,
something that's sort of fascinating about Will and Grace and
about a lot of like gay pop culture at the time,
is like because of a combination of the fact that
it's written by largely straight people, or by by many
straight people, not exclusively, but it's written by many straight people,
and also that people didn't have anything to compare it

(12:51):
to because there wasn't that much mainstream gay media. The
like rules of what's inappropriate and what's not inappropriate just
like had not been set in stone yet. So some
of it ends up being almost accidentally extremely subversive, just
like some of it ends up being incredibly offensive and
like transphobic and racist and whatever else. But some of
it because they were just like going blind, Like now

(13:14):
you're like, oh, this is in fact more subversive than
like the queer meat, like than Bros.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Like, I think we could definitively say Will and Grace
is more subversive than Bros.

Speaker 6 (13:28):
In almost every way.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
Although I mean, I hate to get to go this
deep this early into this conversation, but was was aids
ever mentioned in the entirety of Will and Grace?

Speaker 3 (13:40):
I know that's I don't think it was a running theme,
but it wasn't a bit, not a bit. I mean,
if they were really brave. They would just play it
for laughs, of course, But yeah, but I do think
there was sort of well, you know what, actually I
remember this one episode and actually this is sort of
like kind of a a window into the darkness of

(14:01):
the soul of Will and Grace. Is like there was
an episode where Jack and Will meet this gay elder
and he's like this guy who's maybe in his sixties
or seventies, and he wants to save this gay independent
bookstore and because they're turning it into like a luxury gym,
and so Jack and Will are very moved by it
and they help him raise money. But the sort of

(14:23):
gag at the end is that actually Jack and Will
want it to be turned into a luxury gym because
that's like more what they want than in but it's.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
Sort of like they want to cru but it's sort
of like.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
There's something almost more honest about like if it's like
if that were to happen now on like some sort
of Netflix show that my mom watches, they would all
come together and save the bookstore, you know what I mean,
or like the luxury gym owner would be this huge villain.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
And it was sort of.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Crazy that like they really did. They were honest about
the fact that Will and Jack, as urban white gay
man wanted the luxury gym more than they wanted to
support like their queer elder. Like, so that's what I'm
mean in progress, Yeah, exactly, Like that's what it's almost like,
it's almost like very honest about things like that.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Accidentally, Like I don't know, I think it is.

Speaker 5 (15:10):
I think it is like you're being facetious about it
being progressed. But I actually do think that that is
like what's missing from a lot of the things that
are now correctively trying to commentate on what's going on
right now. And I think the thing that like must
be said about Will and Grace and like the climate
that it came out in, it has a lot to
do with the fact that they weren't trying to solve

(15:31):
for anything, right like with the Bros comparison, Bros And
we love all the people involved, but like Bros existed
to solve a problem, you know, like it's it's solved.
It was trying to solve a problem about the inclusion
of queer character and brom coms and Will and Grace
arrived on the scene being like we don't want to
say anything.

Speaker 4 (15:51):
And in you know, nineteen ninety eight, like.

Speaker 5 (15:54):
By this time, it's like they've gone through the AIDS crisis.
Freddie Mercury Ellen on Time saying Yep, I'm gay. Bill
Clinton was the first president to like acknowledge gay people
as like a voter base in general. Right, Like, there's
so many kind of like landmarks that had been achieved
to lay the path for it, so that by the

(16:14):
time it arrived, which like it was essentially an overnight success.
It was like by its first season it was like
prime time highest rated show.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
It was musty TV.

Speaker 6 (16:26):
Honey.

Speaker 5 (16:26):
Yes, it was all of a sudden given permission to
be as quote unquote problematic as it wants to.

Speaker 4 (16:31):
With that luxury gym thing.

Speaker 5 (16:32):
I think the luxury gym thing like kind of perfectly
encapsulates what made Will and Grace really ahead of its time,
which was that it was agnostic of a lot of
the baggage that had come before it, which is like
most people, most gay people that appeared on TV screens
dieedab ads, right, And here is like an audience of
people that are kind of sick of the whole AIDS thing, unfortunately,

(16:55):
and so of course, it makes sense that the entire
first run of Will and Grace would not mention AIDS
once during the entire Yeah, they.

Speaker 6 (17:04):
Just wanted to be the fabulous, Like that's what it
was all.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
And guess what mission accomplished, Sweetie. To your point Fran

(17:34):
about it, I think you're so like dead on that
it is. It could only have existed in late Clinton
era because it is sort of like there's a sort of.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
Post AIDS.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
And I'm saying that in quotes. I understand that we're
not actually in a post AIDS era, but for the
average viewer, like a sort of post AIDS gay life
almost gave them permission to be less serious about that
stuff in the same way that we that like earlier
Bamba era pop culture was like trying to be post
race almost. It was sort of like, well, we've like
exactly acknowledged gay people, and now we can have a

(18:07):
sitcom about it, just like you know, we have a
black president, now we can have you know, the show
Happy Endings.

Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah kind of yeah.

Speaker 5 (18:16):
And it's it's kind of like to say like something
is like ahead of its time is usually like code
for like it's really dated now, but like it was,
it was. It was ahead of its time, and like
I remember, like last decade when Biden was like, Will
and Grace probably did more to educate the American public
on the LGBTQ community than anything else. He's not one

(18:37):
hundred percent wrong.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
Well right, yeah, you know, she's.

Speaker 5 (18:42):
Because it was so massive, And I think that a lot,
because the show itself was not burdened by the weight
of quote unquote educating people. That's probably why everyone hates
the show, because.

Speaker 6 (18:53):
It was about normalized.

Speaker 4 (18:54):
It didn't stand for everything.

Speaker 5 (18:56):
But I think that and I don't really know necessarily
how the creators felt about like aids or like gay activists,
but like I could imagine that by the mid late nineties,
everyone is all gay people are sick of Larry Kramer,
sick of act up, sick of like being you know,
it's it's just it's a empathy fatigue, right, It's like

(19:16):
what we felt like in the Trump era, where it's
just like, I'm actually, I don't want to listen to
this anymore. I need something that's just stupid and sexy
and fun.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
And that's kind of okay, But I want to ask
an important question, is Will and Grace for gay people
or is it for stray people?

Speaker 6 (19:31):
And I think we I think we know the answer.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
I mean, it's funny because I do think at the
time it was for straight people, and I almost think
that maybe like it's long tail, like maybe it was.
I feel like now it's for gay people. Like I
feel like now nostalgically looking back on it, I'm like,
this is fun in a sort of it's almost like

(19:53):
watching a drag show or so, I mean, Karen is
like a drag character, like you know, it's it's sort
of like, yeah, I don't know, you can view it
through a different lens and have it be fun for
a gay audience. But I do think at the time
it was certainly sold as like, look how normal this is?
Look kind normal this is? Don't like, oh way, look
how normal this is?

Speaker 1 (20:11):
You know, and yeah, and I'm sure like growing up
as as you know, like little queer kids, there's like
at first an element of like I don't want to
like this thing because I don't want people to think
I'm gay, And then it's like I don't want to
like this thing because it's like it's lame. It's like,
you know, it's like normalizing queerness. It's first three people,

(20:33):
and now I think you're totally right that it's like
looking back on it and you're like, wait, this actually
like is absolutely for me and my sensibility, and like
is for queer people like more than anyone else, because
we are the ones who like get the references and
get the humor and like it is exactly our taste
and our point of view.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
It's also like, I mean, there's a way in which
if they wanted to really sort of do this like
respectability politics, normalizing gay people whatever, they they could have
made the characters like way.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
More respectable than they are.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
I mean Jack is still like a sereny, screechy like
sort of you know, in quote gay stereotype. And then
even Will, who's meant to be like the more respectable one,
is very like sort of like neurotic in this quintessentially
gay way. Like he certainly is someone who actual gay

(21:30):
people can see themselves in. So I think, like it
almost like it's slightly better than it needs to be,
and I think maybe that's why it has at least
a little bit of lasting power.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, well, I mean it has, like, of course it
has aged poorly in some cases, but it's still funny. Yeah,
you know, like going back and rewatching it, the jokes
still hit. It's very well written, you know, it's like
a very well crafted sitcom. I also like the but
you know, I don't see Will and Jacka's being sexless,

(22:04):
Like obviously it's not like we ever got you know.
It's like, because this was airing at the same time
as Queer as Folk, like that is a huge counterpoint.

Speaker 6 (22:13):
It's not like we ever got like rimming on Will
and Grace.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
But like Will and Jack they looked like they they
were always dating, they always had boyfriends.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
And like maybe the word rimming was not said, but
it was implied, like there were like dirty jokes.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Sure, sure.

Speaker 5 (22:27):
I always think it's interesting that when when we get
that critique, when people are always like, oh, they were
so sexless, the gay characters didn't get to have sex.
And I was like, wait, but like every other joke
is about a boy, Like yeah, I was like, what
is that?

Speaker 3 (22:38):
And also I'm now, this is what I was gonna
say before that I forgot. There's a part I remember specifically,
there's a sort of meta joke at some point where
Will says something kind of avertly sexual and then Grace
is like, don't say that, Will America doesn't like to
see you as sexual, like, and it's just sort of
joke on the And I those are the little pockets
of not to say that that's so subversive, but like,

(23:00):
those are the little pockets of knowing this that I
think honestly make it a way more interesting show than
like a Friends.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Or something that was on at the same time.

Speaker 5 (23:08):
The show Friends, Friends did not know and I think
that they understood at the strategic level, like what they
could and couldn't do with gay identity in public exactly
in public opinion. And I think that you know, when
you ask the question is that is this for gay
or straight people? It would not have been successful if
it was for gay people, right, Like straight people writ

(23:31):
large had to give this show its massive popularity in
order for it to be platformed and successful, right, And
so like the fact that it was massive and then
had all of these select you mean Matt Lauer aside,
like all these celebrities guess starring like Madonna and Matt Damon,
Jenna Jackson, yeah, Share Jay l Brittany, like all the people.

(23:52):
And it's like that creates legitimacy, right, and like the
legitimacy and like the kind of acceptance into mainstream culture
that the show I guess laid out. It's like what
gave kids who would watch it at during during its
run permission to be themselves. You're like, Oh, if they're accepted,
then maybe i'll be accepted too. Write it's like funny

(24:12):
because like assimilation is like the number one critique of
the show, and yet like assimilation is kind of why
the show.

Speaker 4 (24:21):
Was as impactful as it was totally.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
And again, I don't know why I keep bringing up
Happy Endings, but I was thinking because I was, I
don't know, it was in the news or for some
reason recently. And if you take a show like Happy Endings,
which has have you every seen Happy Endings ever?

Speaker 2 (24:37):
No?

Speaker 4 (24:37):
What is that about it?

Speaker 2 (24:39):
So it's a show that was it's very Obama era.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
It's like probably I want to say, like twenty ten
or something, and it's like Casey Wilson's in it. It's
like a good fun cast, but there's a gay character.
And the entire sort of running joke about the gay
character is that he's kind of like the biggest slob
of all of it, but like he's like very for
lack of a better term, straight acting. He's like kind

(25:04):
of a slacker and perpetually unemployed and doesn't dress well
and is a slob and whatever, and he is part
of this friend group that is all straight people except him,
and it's like we're so post gay that they can
all joke about it and blah blah. And I almost
feel like something like that is way more pro assimilation
or conservative than Will and Grace. I mean, Will and
Grace is essentially portraying like this sort of like many

(25:26):
chosen family that's like two really oh like absolutely gay
guys and two women that are like unmarried or I mean,
I guess Karen is married, but like two women whose
husbands you don't see.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yeah at various at various times, she isn't isn't married,
and Grace isn't isn't married. But yeah, I was watching
that episode with the one of the Christmas episodes with
Blithe Danner and the four of them go to Will's
mom's house for Christmas like they are a family and
not only got more and more explicit as the show

(25:58):
went on, And I think maybe more than anything, that's
what Will and Grace like kind of presented to the
world was like one of the first real examples of
what like a queer Chosen Family could look like, because
I honestly think looking at something like happy endings, which
honestly I haven't I haven't watched enough of the show

(26:19):
to maybe like make this generalization, but I kind of
think that feels more dated than.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
No, it's one hundred percent, I think, Like, honestly, I
think sometimes Wow, not to make the biggest generalation of all,
but I do think sometimes Obama era stuff seems more
dated than Clinton era stuff in a weird way.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
Like no, yeah, no, I feel that the sort.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Of kumbaya like everyone's the same spirit of both of
those eras, it feels way more forced during the Obama era.
It's sort of like we're like not allowed to look
at anything ugly ever, whereas at least in the nineties
you were like not everything was like algorithmically calculated to
like appeal to a demographic.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Or whatever anyway. So but yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
I also, I mean in terms of the Chosen Family
of it all, Like I remember when Will and Grace
tried to have a baby together. That was like one
of the only times the show I ever sort of got
serious because what happened was Grace then met Leo played
by Harry Connick Junior, and so who is it really
is the best that I ever looked as is Woody Harrelson,

(27:21):
also playing Grace's boyfriend.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
By the way, his breakout role, Grace had some really.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
Good I mean, I want to like go back to
the guest stars because that's actually one of the most
fascinating parts of Will and Grace. But so Grace sort
of was planning on having a baby with her gay
best friend, but then met a a Jewish doctor, which
is her dream, and then she was like, wait, but
I have to see where this goes. I can't have
a baby with my gay best friend yet. And they

(27:47):
get into this real fight about it, and it's kind
of I mean, it's kind of something you would never
see on TV. And I don't even know if you've
seen it since, Like it's such a specific experience of
like that generation of you know, assimilating gay men who
still didn't have you know, domestic partnerships and gay marriage
and whatever could adopt or whatever. So I do think

(28:10):
in those ways, it was in its own way ahead
of its time. Again through this very narrow about this
very narrow.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Slipper of the game.

Speaker 6 (28:44):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Something that has always bugs me and like does seem
slightly unrealistic is the fact that Jack and Will never know.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
There is a say gag midway through where they're like
they wake up they're in like a cruise ship or
some thing, or they're in Karen's yeah, I remember, and
they wake up naked next to each other. I think
it's revealed that they ultimately that had not had sex,
but it's like it's sort of a running gag, and
I think you're so right in that, like the final
step it doesn't take is the fact that if they

(29:15):
were actually gay friends, they would have fucked and it
would have been okay.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
And I feel like that's the version of it.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
It wouldn't have had to be a whole thing that
they would have just had or or it would have
happened long before the show started. They would have had
sex once. And you know, there is a very iconic
Thanksgiving two parter flashback episode about when Will came out
to Grace and Jack is sort of Will's like entree
into gay life and like his mentor a little bit,

(29:43):
and Jack clearly has a crush on him, and I
do think that running joke is maybe brought back a
couple times. It's like probably part of the reason why
Jack is constantly nagging Will is like he probably does
have a bit of a thing for him. But yeah,
like realistically they would have one time, like at some
fucking gay club, hooked up and then been like, oh, yeah, whatever,

(30:04):
let's just put friends.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
And not just Jack. Like you don't see that dynamic
at all throughout the show. They don't have other like
because they do have a group of gay friends, but
there's never any sexual history among any of them.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
It's like this couple that has adopted a child.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, and they would all be fucking fucking together. Yeah,
they would be having group sex while Grace was on,
you know, with Leo.

Speaker 5 (30:28):
Because because they're like so white and so upper class,
like there is a kind of like like odorless gass
of like conservatism that's like in some of them. And
I kind of wonder if like whoever was writing however
they were writing the show, is like maybe like rich
gays don't hook up with their friends like they maybe
there's sluts, but it's like there's some like kind of

(30:49):
emotional conservative like guardrail around sex meaning something or something
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Well, it's also the aids.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
I mean, it's also again like the late nineties post
AIGs thing where it's like, well, if we're not a
dressing that, then we're certainly not having them all, like
going around having sex with one another, Like.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, yeah, well I think also it's probably that because
there were so many straight people having their hands on
the show, Like straight people truly cannot conceptualize of a
world in which you have casual sex with your friends
and then.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
Stay ye and like it's they just and also as
accepting as they were and as accepting as straight people
can be in their hearts, they still think what every
gay person wants is to settle down and have children
in a monogamous relationship. Like it's more of a recent
thing to be like accepting of other romantic lifestyles.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
I feel, yeah, like polyamory, which, according according to TikTok,
polyamorous people are like the most you know, maligned and marginalized.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
People, and we are marching at dawn.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
I'm not marching for for polyamorous people.

Speaker 5 (32:00):
Okay, So speaking of like Will and Jack, I do
remember in the last season there is this moment that
happens that centers around the idea of a gay kiss
on TV, and I do like how Will and Grace
is continuously like meta, like you can tell like what
they're aware of, what they can get away with or whatever.
And in the actual episode, Will and Jack are anticipating

(32:21):
what is supposed to be. Isn't it supposed to be
like the first gay kiss on h on network television
or something on an episode of NCIS And then they
try to watch it and it doesn't happen, like it's
cut for cut from you know, network TV or whatever.
And I'm pretty sure that it mirrors an actual thing
that happened in like gay TV history, where in there

(32:42):
was supposed to be a gay kiss and then it
was cut. And so as a part of their last season,
they stage up protests wherein they kiss on Good Morning
America in front of Al Roker and Will and Jack
kiss on Morning TV basically the live Morning TV and
then they become the first gay kiss on TV, which

(33:02):
is like kind of genius. It's like really genius and
fun and also talks about like the first like the
first gay stuff is like that's like a that's a
joke that will like remain relevant, like jokes that are
jokes are still on SNL about that, you know what
I mean?

Speaker 3 (33:16):
Yeah, I mean even in terms of the sort of
meta the meta element of it, even when when Britney
Spears guest stars famously she plays a conservative talk show
host that the new conservative network that has bought out TV,
which is the network that Jack works at, has placed
there to make the show more conservative. And I feel
like that's also a sort of commentary on like what

(33:39):
you can get away with what the quote unquote the suits, like,
you know, want, versus what the people want people making
a show want. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's very it's
very sort of aware of the of the culture surrounding it.

Speaker 5 (33:57):
I want to rewind really quick, because we didn't get
a chance to talk about, like I guess where we
were in time when we first watched Will and Grace.
I have already sat on the pot that right around
the time, I still wasn't allowed to watch like mainstream things,
but I like was saving my own money to buy
my own shit. I did buy this season six box
set of Will and Grace and hid it under my bed,

(34:18):
and my mom ended up like confiscating it and throwing
it away, so that to me is like but I
remember loving it and being like what the fuck is this? Like,
how is this allowed to be in the culture?

Speaker 4 (34:29):
Whatever? What are y'all's memories, I guess are attachment to it.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
I distinctly remember the first the first time I was
like channel surfing and caught it on TV, and I
wish I remember the context of this scene, but it's
like a scene where I think Will is coming back
from Paris, I want to say, and he had sent
back a T shirt that has like the Eiffel Tower
on it that was meant for Jack's son that he

(34:57):
has with like the lesbian couple with Rosio done all over,
but Jack had misunderstood and thought the T shirt was
for him. So the big reveal is that he takes
off his Bathrob when he's wearing like a belly shirt
that has the Eiffel Tower on it, which is clearly
like a kid's shirt, and he's like, this wasn't for me,
and it's like, of course he's so gay that he
thought like a children's shirt was for him or whatever.
And I just remember being like almost I in no

(35:19):
way was aware that I might be gay. At the time,
I was, you know, probably like eleven or twelve or something,
and I remember being so sort of like humiliated by
the sight of that and being like, oh, God, like
men shouldn't do that, Like this is so like why
is he being so feminine? Well, they shouldn't is Let's
be real, And that's kind of the moral of the
show at the end.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
So I have that memory of it.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
But then at the same time, it was very sort
of like intrigued and titillated by it and found it
very funny, and I.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Like wanted to watch more of it.

Speaker 3 (35:49):
And the other thing is so at the time we
were living in so my parents immigrated from Greece, and
then we lived in New Jersey, and then when I
was thirteen, we moved back to Greece. So I have
sort of these two parts of my life where I
was like in America and then outside. And so this
was still in New Jersey and we went to a
Greek church that was in no way conservative. It was like,
you know, in like a blue state. It was not

(36:12):
like Catholic whatever. But for whatever reason, I remember in
Sunday school the teacher calling out specifically Will and Grace
has like this uniquely evil thing, and he had like
never talked about pop culture before or music or TV
or movies, but that was like the one thing I
remember he singled out. So from the beginning, I almost
like had caught on that it was something controversial before

(36:33):
I knew what it even was on its own, you know,
on its own. And then I think I really got
into it, probably after it stopped airing, because I started
just like watching it, like renting it, renting the DVDs,
or like watching it online. And it became sort of
like a comfort watch, like my number one comfort watch

(36:56):
throughout like high school and college that I would like
return to, or if I was like home for the
Christmas for Christmas break or something, I would just like
let it play in the background and watch like twelve
episodes in a row. And Yeah, and it's interesting because
it hasn't had the same kind of nostalgic legacy as
even even like Friends or something like yes, it was rebooted, whatever,

(37:19):
But you don't really see you know, you don't see
a lot of like gifts of it or like people
constantly quoting it.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
I mean you see some, but it's really not.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
As much as as as a lot of this other
stuff that has had like a second life on streaming.

Speaker 5 (37:33):
Yeah, there are no Will and Grace t shirts at
hot topic, right, Yeah, there are lots of Friends t
shirts at hot topic.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Even though it even though it is I believe, still
in syndication. Yeah, I think you can still turn on
you know, TBS and catch an episode of Will and Grace.
You were talking talking about this episode with like the
Eiffel Tower shirt. The femininity really was like a sticking
point for pretty much everyone that ever can the show,

(38:00):
and it was like a reason for people to basically
hate it, whether you were gay or straight. And like,
I think it honestly the kind of like, oh God
like terror feeling that like I.

Speaker 4 (38:11):
Definitely felt as a kid when I watched it, that.

Speaker 5 (38:13):
You felt as a kid that a lot of people
feel when they first see a flamboyant character on screen.
Like had a lot to do with like, uh wait,
what's what the.

Speaker 4 (38:25):
Guy that plays with Jack, what's his name? Sean Hayes's
physical comedic brilliance?

Speaker 5 (38:32):
Like he's such a a comedic genius as a physical comic, like.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
Insurmountable.

Speaker 5 (38:40):
And I think that his femininity and what he was
able to do with physical comedy, comedy and femininity is
why we were terrified, but also why it was radical
because I didn't get ninety percent of those jokes.

Speaker 4 (38:52):
I didn't understand a lot of the zingers, but.

Speaker 5 (38:55):
I understood what was physically funny about the show every
single character, including Sean Hayes obviously, but everybody's great at
physical comedy.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
I feel, I mean, I'm glad you brought up the
sort of backlash against that character specifically because I mean,
especially among gay people, it was like, this is so
harmful because it is perpetuating this harmful stereotype that gasp,
gay men or queenie like you know, it's like, yeah,
they are, and I think it really I notice you.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Say they and not we. Well, yeah, I'm sort of
more of a will part of that, but like, yeah,
I've met people like.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
That for sure, and I accept them. Yeah, sure, But
I do think it really overshadows the fact that it
was this like genius performance, like to reduce that to like, oh,
he's being flamboyant, when it's so much more like he's
not being flamboyant in the way that like the bitchy
assistant in a rom Com is being flamboyant he's.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Doing like.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
I mean, it's just like it's one of them, one
of them brilliant sitcom performances of all time.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Oh, I mean, honestly, every single one of them, in
a different way is giving an incredible comedic performance. Eric McCormick,
like also, I think is a great physical comedian, like
has this very sort of like gummy quality to his face.

Speaker 6 (40:16):
You know.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Deborah Messing it like kind of is in the same boat.
Megan Malally like.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Is a genius.

Speaker 6 (40:24):
And Karen is is mother.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Karen she is some mother for that she is like
she she just she is the divadal herself. They all
were were incredible and the show, I mean, you know,
we were talking about like where we all were when
this show came out, and like I like have such
a like boring context for it, because like I was
just allowed to watch whatever and like my family and

(40:46):
I definitely like watched this as part of that Thursday
night block Musty TV with Friends and Seinfeld and like
whatever other shows were on at the time, and like
somehow this show both seamlessly blended into the other sitcoms
that existed at the time because of the kind of

(41:07):
performances the actors were giving and also absolutely stuck out
and was singular for the same reason.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
Also Deborah Messing, like I know, we all sort of
roll our eyes at her now and with good reason
when you look back on her, just her as a
comedic actress, like she is giving Lucille ball like it is.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
She is, the way she uses her voice, I mean,
and and.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Also like there's a sort of not to use this
excuse mer not to use the word I'm choking up,
not to use the word brave, but there's a sort
of like bravery to like the way that she really
does just like debase herself physically. Like there's a part
there's a one episode where she's wearing this dress, this
very low cut dress without a bra, and the gag

(41:55):
is that Karen is fixing her boobs but they keep
like sacked, so she like pulls them up and then
they keep sagging, and it goes on for truly like
twenty seconds of like Grace sitting there with her moves
all but exposed and Karen like trying to pull them up,
but then they keep sagging because Grace is so disgusting.
Like that's like the joke of the and it's like,

(42:16):
you know, it's not nothing like to just sit there.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
It's very brave of her. And I think they all
you know, won Emmys and Golden Globes at various points
throughout the show's run, also thinking about okay, thinking about
the grace of it all, Like this is very Will
and Grace is.

Speaker 6 (42:33):
Like peak fag.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
I mean, Will and Grace is just like there are
gay men and there are straight women period.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Like that's I think that's like what we've been.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
Of, like because we were all very like you know,
we're being sort of redemptive about it and we're being
positive about it. But like obviously all of us are
aware of like the shortcomings of the show.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Like yeah, there's nothing. Yeah, like we're not mentioning them.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Because I assume your listeners are smart enough to like
know them already and we can sort of like ellegrated
for what it is. But like it was peak fag
hag culture. It was peak like I mean, the way
I'm not even gonna talk like the way that trans
people were like dealt with was like not even you know,
as though like not in human but even lesbians.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Well I clocked a joke with that Will made in
one of the episodes I was watching yesterday where he
was like I was the only boy who did some
kind of like gay thing. He's like, well, the only
one who still a boy, And it was like just
stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
But even les I mean, you know, even lesbians though,
were also the punchlines. Like you could argue that like,
oh we were not as close to sort of you know,
mainstream acceptance of trans people at the time. Fine, but
like what but but there was a sort of way
in which it was like, well, it's gay men's turn, now,

(43:51):
maybe lesbians will get a turn later. Like it was
it was a show about gay men, and like whenever
lesbians were on, they were like truly the butt of
the joke.

Speaker 4 (44:00):
Oh yeah, every single time.

Speaker 5 (44:01):
I mean yeah, I think that, like it's funny because obviously, yeah,
a lot of a lot of things like that are
like very reductive and all that jazz.

Speaker 4 (44:09):
And like I do think that like contemporary.

Speaker 5 (44:12):
Criticism, like people that were critical of it while it
was running, a lot of them came back to this
this thing about like homogeneity, right, like this is not
all of us, So why you know, why are these
characters so flat.

Speaker 4 (44:23):
Why don't they have sex? Why don't they have inner lives?

Speaker 5 (44:25):
And I'm like, it's a sitcom about upper or white
about upper class like white faggots, like.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
And it's also it's not all of us, but it's
so it's such a lot of us.

Speaker 5 (44:34):
And that's like it's it's scarcity, right, is like what
creates that? Like it's like all of us, like eating
each other alive is like a product of the oppression.
And it's like because there were only two other gay
shows out at the time, probably like we all hate
all of them, and like it's interesting that like now
in twenty twenty two, when we have like seven hundred

(44:56):
gay shows, we still.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
All, oh a hundred or yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
Yeah, it's kind of really using, I mean because yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
And again it's almost like like it goes back to
the bookstore versus Jim thing. It's like there's a certain
honesty to what it was depicting. Like it was not
depicting a diverse friend group where everyone is of a
different socioeconomic status. It was depicting a very specific group
of people, like two upwardly mobile, rich professionals and then

(45:27):
like there are two friends, one of which is like
a dumb faggot, and the other one of which is
like an you know this like wealthy, fictional wealthy woman
that exists as like an imagination of a gay man,
you know, like so housing the way I I thought

(45:47):
that was the funniest thing. Wait, God, there was like
one line where Karen goes, so Grace is talking about
something kind of lame and boring or whatever, but she's
like portraying it as interesting. I think she's talking about
like planning a game night, so it's like something really stupid,
and Karen is just like rolling her eyes, and after
every sentence Grace says, she just like expresses her exasperation

(46:09):
even more. And then the final thing she says is
which lever do I pull to be crushed by a safe?
And it's just like, I mean, it's such a perfect
Karen Lyne.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
It was jokes on jokes on jokes on jokes.

Speaker 6 (46:44):
They never stopped.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
I mean, that's what happens when, you know, in ye
olden days, when they're like twenty writers in the right
and they're all getting paid real money and get residuals
to this day, mama, yea truly, and it's wild to
think that, like Eric McCormick is still heterosexual, and like,
that's crazy, and what an interesting post Will and Grace's

(47:07):
career he's had. Because the only thing I ever the
only thing I've ever seen him in is he did
an episode on Lonard SVU where he was the villain.

Speaker 6 (47:14):
It's very creepy.

Speaker 5 (47:16):
Oh, I honestly, I'm kind of I'm depressed by the
fact that, like none of them really do much anymore.
Like I do think they all have like a sublime
ingenuity that would lend.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
Itself so well to other shows.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Like I mean, well, they've all done things like Megan
Malally what is incredible on Parks and rec like she
was a recurring but that was a guest star.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Is coming up? So do you guys know Josh Sharp
and Aaron Jackson. Yes, she's in there movie which you know,
not to brag. I've seen a cut of and oh
when I tell you, I when I tell you You're gonna die.
I mean it is like it's like all bets are off,

(48:00):
Like it is a performance unlike anything I've ever seen.

Speaker 4 (48:03):
I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Well, she has that, she has that in her and
always has and like the thing I think that the
reason why we're like they all deserve more is because
we're not like I don't think we're accurately remembering the
time when this show was such a cultural jug ornau
and these were incredibly famous people who were like winning

(48:24):
Emmys and Golden Globes every year, and like probably like
they all enjoy the fact that they only have to
work when they want to. And you know, even someone
like Sean hay Is like really like is very seems
to be very selective about what he like gets involved with,
and like he was he was in that Netflix show

(48:45):
Q Force and was a producer on it, and like,
you know, I think like they're again like they are
all making tons of residuals because like this is a
sitcom and there are a million episodes of it, and like,
of course, yes, I wish we saw more of them,
and maybe who knows, like this movie will be a
moment to like reinsert Megan Malali back in pop culture.

(49:09):
But like, I don't think it's like necessarily fair to
say that like they've done nothing.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
It's more like there aren't that many, like there aren't
that many sitcoms like that where the full range of
their talents could be yes, played like because they are. Yeah,
you're right, they are all consistently. I mean Megamali especially
has had truly I mean it's funny, like talking about
happy endings. She plays Casey Wilson's mom and happy endings
and it's like a very funny role. Or like she'll

(49:36):
be in Parkson Regg, she'll be in Oh god, she
was recently in something and she was really good. Anyway,
it's they're all doing. I mean, listen, Deborah Messing was
has done a lot of stage work, none of it,
none of it. She also she also had that show
where she was Yes Hemistry Laura and.

Speaker 6 (49:56):
She and she was she was a.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Cop in that movie Searching. Oh my god, all right,
why does she like playing cop? You? You are both reaching.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
So you forget about.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
Okay, No, here's what I'm trying.

Speaker 5 (50:15):
Here's what Here's what I'm getting at when I by
mentioning it rose, I think you're looking at it through
rose color classes to say that they are being yes,
to say that they're being selective about like I think
I think we're taking for granted just how homophobic Hollywood
is and still is.

Speaker 4 (50:31):
And I think that baby, it's not.

Speaker 5 (50:36):
And I think no, I do think that, like like
when you are known for doing one gay thing for
eight years, you'll never get any work outside of that,
Like like I mean, especially Sean and Sean and Eric,
like no one would ever ever ever cast them in
straight like major movie or TV show, like straight roles,

(50:57):
different types anything, like it's not gonna work. And with
with Deborah Messing and Megan Malalley, I would I would
wager that their reputation and their commitment to a historically
gay show is part of like what deters them from
being bookable in other places.

Speaker 4 (51:12):
And like I don't think I would say that if.

Speaker 5 (51:14):
Like Deborah Messing wasn't so desperate about like being in
the Lucille Ball biopic or like constantly pitching herself for things.

Speaker 4 (51:21):
And I'm like, girl, like you're a legend. You don't
need to be doing this.

Speaker 5 (51:24):
And I and I think part of like where I'm
going as like you know Ellen, when Ellen came out,
she did like pay like she paved the way for
Will and Grace to exist. But like when Laura Dern
played Ellen's love interest for that episode of TV of
her coming out TV show, she did not get work

(51:44):
for like what six seven eight years, she got like
death threats.

Speaker 4 (51:48):
She was like cast out from Hollywood.

Speaker 5 (51:50):
Like there's so much like residual homophobia that like makes
people associated with queer things I guess not bookable. And
if it's not a f and if it's not homophobia,
it's actually just like the limitedness of casting directors totally.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
And well, yeah, I do think a big part of
it is the sitcom of it all is that it's
probably very hard for a casting director to look at
Sean Hayes and see him as anything other than just Jack,
you know, like, and it's hard for audiences probably.

Speaker 6 (52:22):
To do the same.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
And I'm sure that, bundled with the extreme homophobia of
the world and of Hollywood, makes it hard for them.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
I mean Sean Hayes specifically, it's interesting has like rebranded
himself as a sort of power producer.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
Like if you go to his.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
He's really like produced a lot of stuff and he's
like someone people really want to work with.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
And I think he has like a good reputation.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
I mean, of course, like God will strike me dead
because tomorrow it'll reveal that like I don't know, he threw.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Someone out a window. But yeah, I wish that's mess
with the best.

Speaker 6 (52:56):
Truly.

Speaker 4 (52:56):
I want so much for her, I want so much.

Speaker 6 (52:59):
Well, she she's an icon and she.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Still got it. She's still got the comedic timing. You know.

Speaker 3 (53:05):
I do think there's a lack of focus where it's
like she shouldn't be doing She did this off Broadway
play that was like a woman aging four decades in
real not in real time, I'd say in real time,
not time, but yeah, it was like it was it
was called Birthday Candles, and it was like every like
fifteen minutes she had a new birthday or something. I

(53:26):
I'm obviously it's not exactly that, but it's essentially that she.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Did this other play.

Speaker 3 (53:31):
She shouldn't be be treating this other which people, if
you haven't seen clips of you have to google Deborah
Messing Irish accent. She did some play where she was
meant to be Irish and she's acting like alongside an
actual Irish person, and it's truly, I can't even do
it justice, Like it is unlike anything I've ever heard
of in my life. If you can find a clip
and put it here, truly like it is a treat.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Well, well, she is one of our most iconic redheads,
and I what. I had a hair appointment yesterday and
I got home afterwards I was watching Will and Grace
and I realized my hair color is like Grace.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Are you are giving Grace? I have to say.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Yeah, but I'm also but also Megan Malali in her
real life is is a redhead. So I'm gonna say
I'm still I'm still a Karen. Yeah we should Karen.

Speaker 7 (54:18):
Should all be Karen's write the book.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
Decide into our DMS at Like a Virgin four twenty
sixty nine and let us know, did you watch Will
and Grace? Are you a Will? Are you a Grace?
Are you a Jack? Are you a Karen? And we'll
be back next week with a new episode. You can
become a patron at Patreon dot com slash like a
Virgin four weekly bonus episodes so you can also buy
our march at Like a Virgin four sixty nine dot com.

(54:55):
Follow us on Instagram at Like a Virgin four twenty
sixty nine. You can follow me anywhere you want, do
you and you can find Fran at France wishco. Like
a Virgin is an iHeartRadio production. Our producer is Phoebee
Unter with support from Lindsay Hoffmann and Nikkiktor until next week.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
Au Revoir, Just Jack.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
And now a clip from our Patreon. Become a patron
at patreon dot com slash like a Virgin for weekly
bonus episodes and more.

Speaker 6 (55:28):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Last week I read a gay pirate book, Erotic Yes,
All Kidnapped by the Pirate.

Speaker 4 (55:36):
And your review.

Speaker 6 (55:40):
You're like, remember three and.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
A half stars, Yes, but I still enjoyed it. It's
about So, it's about this young twink who is moving
from England to a an island. His father has been like,

(56:02):
is going to be the governor of you know, this
is like early seventeen hundreds. It's like Pirates of the
Caribbean vibes And on their voyage they get boarded by
a pirate vessel and this this pirate kidnaps him because
the boy's father cheated the pirate years before, because the
pirate used to be a privateer and because of the

(56:24):
boy's father, he was forced into a life of piracy.
So the pirate kidnaps him and he's like, well, I'm
gonna ransom you back to your father, and so he
keeps him on him.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
He keeps him on his ship.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
He keeps him on his ship, like in his cabin.
But unbeknownst to him, this boy, his whole life has
been like I want God so badly, and the pirate
is like being really mean to him, but the boy is.

Speaker 6 (56:52):
Like turned on by it.

Speaker 4 (56:54):
He's like, don't be mean to me.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
I'll come.

Speaker 7 (56:56):
No.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Literally, like there's a scene where because he makes the
boy stay in his cabin all day, and so one
day the boy's like.

Speaker 4 (57:04):
He's like, yeah, lock my cock and the page daddy. No.

Speaker 6 (57:08):
One day, the boy's like, well, what am I gonna do?

Speaker 1 (57:09):
I guess I'm just gonna jerk off, and so he
jerks off, and right after he comes, the pirate comes
inside and the boy like hides his hand come behind
his back, and the Pirate's like, what are you hiding?
And he brings it out and his hands full of cum,
and the pirate's like he he he, well.

Speaker 4 (57:25):
He acknowledges that it's common. He's like, I caught you
jerking it.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (57:28):
Well the pirate's also gay.

Speaker 5 (57:30):
Pirate entities just tend to be gay, yeah, like they
really it comes with the culture.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
Yes, And so they do eventually start fucking and sucking
and they fall.

Speaker 4 (57:42):
In love fucking sucking too.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
And the thing that I always think in these circumstances
is their holes and other body parts would be so dirty,
so smelly, so smelly, smelly, so covered, and shit so
covered and shit, and I do you have to suspend
disbelief a little bit. Yeah, that's why I.

Speaker 7 (58:03):
The captain bent over and I saw his cleanish wish.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
I mean, there is a plot point where like the
boys like, please let me take a bath, and so
like he does bathe before the first time they have
SA so you know, he is like nice and but
we all know that baths are not very sanitary.

Speaker 6 (58:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
And it's not even a real bath. It's like a
bucket that he's cleaning himself with. It's why I do
kind of like sometimes when I read like gay fantasy,
because like with the monsters, it's like they don't eat,
so they don't shit.

Speaker 5 (58:32):
Are you do you prefer shower before sex like in
all cases or are you just does it kind of depend.

Speaker 6 (58:39):
I do prefer it.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
I had someone recently actually ask me not to shower
before sex.

Speaker 4 (58:44):
Yeah, people ask and I like the musk. Yeah, if
you want the musk, that's fine. It's just I don't
really want the musk.

Speaker 6 (58:50):
I want the musk.

Speaker 4 (58:51):
Yeah, oh, I like the musk. I don't like a
lot of musk. I only like a little musk.

Speaker 6 (58:56):
I like a I really like a musky pit.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
I couldn't handle that. I couldn't handle like dark bo.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Not like dank dank, but like I don't want to.
I like armpits and I like to lick an armpit,
and I don't want to taste deodorant.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Same.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
The ideal would be if you showered and then didn't
like put anything on and then came.

Speaker 4 (59:20):
Over yeah, or you had just like you know, an
essential oil or something.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
But there's like this guy who asked me not to shower.
He was actually like, oh, you should go to the gym.

Speaker 5 (59:30):
Oh and get your sweat. Yeah, that's coreact. I mean, look,
some girls be into that.

Speaker 4 (59:36):
Okay, I know, Okay,