Patreon Preview: Wicked Review

Divas, we're back on Patreon! Every week we drop episodes exclusively for our Patrons, and this week we're giving an in-depth review on Wicked, plus our thoughts on Emilia Pérez and Oh, Mary! Head to patreon.com/likeavirgin to subscribe and get weekly episodes from your favorite elusive transsexual podcasters.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Happy holidays, virgins. Yes this is not a glitch. As
a gift just for you, we are back in your
RSS feeds as a one time holiday special. Now, in
case you didn't get the memo, Rose and I brought
the pod back this summer, but not on your usual
podcasting platform. We are releasing weekly episodes exclusively on Patreon.

(00:26):
That's patreon dot com slash like a virgin. So if
you miss us, we wanted to give you a little
taste of what we're doing over there with that's right,
our Wicked movie review episode. This is an hour and
forty five minute episode where we discuss the amazing John M.

(00:47):
Chew adaptation as super fans of the original musical, plus
a little bonus conversation on Cole Escola's Broadway show Oh Mary,
which Rose finally saw, and some nuanced critique one might
say about the transsexual true crime Amelia Perez. Now, we're

(01:08):
only doing this once. Okay, We're only dropping a podcast
here once, So if you miss us, you can get
our weekly episodes, plus bonus episodes sometimes exclusively on Patreon
at a sliding scale. We have Agatha all Along recaps.
We have our Joker Fogle Ya do breakdown or maybe takedown.

(01:30):
You might say some musings on why people didn't understand
one of our favorite movies of the year, The Substance.
All of that on patreon dot com slash like a Virgin.
This is a platform that supports creators directly. Rose and
I get the amazing support directly from you, which is
why we do it just for you version. So if

(01:53):
you want to support us, please go on over to
patreon dot com slash like a Virgin. That's patreon dot
com slash like a Virgin. We miss you and we
hope you enjoy what is our gargantuan Wicked episode sneak
preview directly from our Patreon patreon enjoy. She's Sheen, I'm.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Me none, no name?

Speaker 1 (02:24):
What is your childhood? I am a cook?

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Shook girls, you.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Know what's going down before us?

Speaker 3 (02:35):
So round Wicked Part one, Part two. Let us be glad. Okay,
let us be glad. Let us be grateful that this
time both MIC's are recording Amma's divas. We already recorded

(02:58):
an hour and a half long Wicked recap episode yesterday
yes only to discover that one of the mics had
not been connected, so we had to fully scrap that
episode and we are re recording today. But you know what,
it's good. We our thoughts were kind of sprawled all

(03:20):
over the place yesterday.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Also very excitable, like we were kind of like the
you know, I mean, I know a lot of times
we record this podcast, we don't really like think about
the audience, but we really were just kind of fanning out.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
You're like to triple checking me audio. I'm just making
sure that yours is actually working.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
It is, But yeah, I feel like we have only
uh more context and insight to gain by going for
a round two of this discussions.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
And I even pulled out my Wicked mug. Oh I
love it. I love So before we get in to Wicked,
we're going to cover a few lingering things that two
things specific yeah, two things specifically, two different sides of

(04:14):
a queer theatrical spectrum. They're all they're all related somehow,
And this time Fran is not going to spill any tea.
It's not supposed to be said on the mic. Don't
even don't even don't even have cover your mouth like
when Kristen China with covered ari on his mouth and Wicked.

(04:35):
Sorry spoilers, just what Yeah, we're talking about O. Mary.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
First, I did accidentally say something that I wasn't supposed
to say, because you know, we're insiders, we're insider girlies.
And uh, but yeah, Rose finally saw O Mary finally saw.
I saw it like earlier this year. When you think about.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
Probably the last person in New York to see oh my,
and I loved it. It's so brilliant. Cole Scola, who,
if you don't know, wrote, directed, wrote, and stars in
it as Mary Todd Lincoln. Mary Todd Lincoln, who is

(05:19):
a Mary Todd Lincoln who is a drunk former cabaret
star who's married to gay Abraham Lincoln and just wants
to get back on the stage. It's just it's so
fucking brilliant. I was so blown away by how like
relentlessly funny. It was the fact that it never lets
up for the entirety of its hour and a half

(05:41):
runtime and only like escalates throughout, and the way that
it captivated this theater full of people who like probably
otherwise would have been seeing like The Lion King or whatever,
you know, like a mainstream Broadway audience, and they were
fucking living.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Can I I want to ask, because like there are
probably a lot of versions that like might.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
Never see the show but have heard all about it.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
You would be been hearing so much about the show
when the curtain came up and you saw like the
first scene or two. Was there anything about like the
texture of the show that you were like, this was
really surprising. I wasn't expecting this, not not really that
it was surprising, because you know, I know Cole.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
I've known them for a long time at this point, so.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
You understand the comedic dissibility is very specific.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah, I know, I know Cole's you know, vibe and aesthetic,
and I've seen them do so many different things, so
that everything that is in A Mary makes so much
sense because it's all pulling from Cole's long career, as
you know, like an erstwhile New York Cabaret, Muse and Diva.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
Cole is very like a if you know, you know,
kind of comedy girl and now every comedy many more people. No.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yeah, so I wasn't surprised that I wasn't surprised necessarily
by the content of it. I was just surprised, and
I wasn't even surprised by how good it was. I
was just so delighted to see what they've been doing
for so long on this massive scale and get so
much buy in from the audience. Well they wrote it

(07:23):
like ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, you know, and it's it's I want to know
what the fuck it took to get Broadway to buy
into a really fucking crazy idea.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
I don't know if it's like, well had a really
successful off Broadway, right, were right?

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Like, I think my one of the things that I
was most enthralled about from the show is that it
is as successful as it is because there's so many
people that my look at what the show is made
up of and be like, oh, that's so niche. It's
like absurdist, it's very faggoty, very non bindary, you know whatever,
like and I kind of loved that. It's a it

(07:57):
is the best thing on Broadway. It will the most
expensive thing. Yeah, it will sweep the Tony. It deserves,
you know, the recognition it gets. And I just hope
that like Broadway continues to like take risks like this.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
Yeah, and you watching the show, it's not in any
way pandering to the mainstream Broadway audience. It's being exactly
what it is. In this really like transgressive, hilarious way,
and the fact that it has been so successful is

(08:35):
by design of its humor, not by design of its pandering.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Right, It's like it's like transgressive, but it's like also
so stupid. It's like not interested in like it has
no commentary whatsoever, like which I love. No serious there's
no serious moment where you know, Mary Mary realizes yeah,
like deals with her trauma, her addiction, Like.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
Oh, there's there's thing like that.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
And I, I mean the other another reason why I
mean I I I think I said when we in
our last record like that, it reminded me a little
bit of like slave play, which is kind of like
that's a silly that's like a really bizarre comparison, but
like because they have nothing to do with each other.
But I think what I was kind of thinking about
is like how Jeremy O. Harris and Cola Scola are

(09:24):
now both like it girls, and when has there ever
been a play? Right girl?

Speaker 3 (09:32):
You know what I mean? Arthur Arthur Miller married married
Marilyn Monroe. Right, yeah, yeah, I was, Yeah, That's what
I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Though that's a long time ago, and it's kind of
like I it makes me hopeful for the theater, especially
since Hollywood is on the deep down decline, you know
what I mean, like they're making so much less less shit.
I just I hope that people can I hope that
Broadway producers can see novelty instead of things that are
just like adapted existing ip I mean.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Obviously linked Abraham link, it's like an existing i PA.
But also I mean, I think you said yesterday that
you know, Cole didn't do any research on Mary Todd
Lincoln going into this, which I love. It really is
just as if Countess Luanne was the first lady during
at the end of the Civil War.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, she she honestly she she would be she would
have a great run as O Mary.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yeah, I I if you're not aware.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Also, like there are snippets of of of Mary Todd
Lincoln in this show that are like taken from Cole
as a persona because Cole used to do cabaret. Cole
is like sober, they're like just they're just funny ways
that just Cole really bodied this performance. And oh my god,
the finale.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
Finale is amazing for okay, spoilers for a Mary spoilers.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Mary.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
The show ends with so Mary Todd Lincoln's gay huh been.
Abraham Lincoln has tried to distract her with acting classes
from John Wilkes Booth, who it turns out is his
secret lover. And when Mary finds all this out, she
is the one who shoots Abraham Lincoln and blames it
on John Wilkes Booth. And then the show ends with
this sort of like fever dream of a cabaret number

(11:18):
with Mary Todd Lincoln doing She'll be coming around the
Mountain when she comes low lo La. She was a
show girl, and it's like very like Carol Channing. It
is just like it's such a like a victory lap
because the whole show, Mary Todd Lincoln has been talking
about being a cabaret star, but until then it has

(11:39):
resisted the impulse to have her actually do a musical number.
And if you don't have that final number, like, the
show is still incredible, Like it could have ended with
her shooting Abraham Lincoln and it would have been fine, Yeah,
But then Cole gets to come out and do this
like essentially Encore a mashup, Yeah, and it's just so incredible.

(12:01):
I love to see them getting their flowers. We will
be you know, campaigning during Tony season.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Did you ever did you ever google or like look
at the Wikipedia for the lyrics of Copa Cabana.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
No, it was It's.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Literally like the Lola the Showgirl. It's like it actually
tells like a really we should look at it right now.
It actually tells like a really dark and like sad
story about like a show girl that is like, you know,
she's like past her prime and she like won't leave
the club, and she's like an alcohol It has like
bizarre similarities to like the oh Mary story. I had

(12:40):
never really listened to fucking Coba Cabana and thought, wow.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Show girls are a dark entity. Yes, that's true. I'm
excited for that, the Pamela Anderson movie, The Last show Girl. Oh,
but I also feel like it might not be good. Well,
which Copola.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Is doing it again, I'm not Sophia not so fac Cobla,
which I don't know. I've never seen any of her,
I've never heard of her before. I'm sure no offense.
I'm sure it will be bad.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
But yeah, so this so this was a very good
theatrical experience. Let's talk about a very bad theatrical experience,
which was you finally watched the second half of Amelia.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Perez Amelia Perez, I feel like, I I mean, it's
funny that we're talking about these back to back because
something that like oh Mary is. Something that's really beautiful
about the reception of oh Mary is that because it's
just like a good motherfucking story. It like hasn't been
relegated to like the LGBT like pride representation space, Like

(13:39):
people aren't talking about it like in ways that are like, oh,
like inclusivity is so important.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
It's like there's nothing tokenized about Cole or about no
Meal's identity is so secondary to them just being an
incredible creator. It doesn't show up like the text of
non binary Noess does not that doesn't show up in
the play at all. That's it's not like, I mean
other than outside of that performance itself, but like it's
not like a part of the narrative, and it hasn't
really been part of the narrative of the marketing of

(14:07):
the play, which is amazing.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
Like I love that it just gets to be itself.
I think that that actually people that market things like
don't ever want to give things with queer people in
it a chance for it to actually just be a
good story.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
I just find an audience based on its own.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Merits, and Amelia Perez like did exactly that, which is
like they they're just like, oh, trans trans trans trans
you love it, don't you? Can Film Festival and Can
Film Festival is.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
Like three awards for every single actress in this movie.
Congratulations trends, Like I do think I think Zoe Saldana
is good with what she has to work with.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
I think the actress who plays Amelia Perez is good
in a fucking awful role. I mean, this whole movie
and specifically Amelia Prez's story, which is the whole story
is huge megaflop due to Kaka.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, I mean, I have more to say about Carlo
Sevia Guescom, but let's for the virgins, Like, let's give
an overview of the plot.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
It's about a cartel leader who enlists the help of
a lawyer to disappear from the world and transition in secret,
fake her own death, and she comes back and wants
to be with her family again, so she has them
move in with her, and then she also starts this
nonprofit organization to find the bodies of people all over

(15:40):
who have been, you know, disappeared by the cartels and
why is it a musical? And then she and at
the end she dies and literally becomes a saint. They
catch her, they carry a statue of her around, which
is kind of like the I mean, the biggest problem
of this movie for me is that it's just not good.

(16:01):
But then the secondary issue is that it is such
a dangerous depiction of transness because it shows why identity
politics are so bad, and that it takes this evil
person and says that by transitioning, transitioning is an inherently

(16:23):
good act that absolves her of all the evil she's done,
and it like totally plays into everything that people who
hate trans people think about trans It's it is Kaitlyn Jenneral,
it is Caitlin Jenner.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yes, it's really, it's really and and the thing is, like,
all y'all, if you've read anything online about Amelia Press,
that's like negative. Almost all of it is about transrepresentation.
It's about the depiction of trans womanhood. It's about the
bizarreity of it. It's about all these different things that
they that are viewed as problematic. Let's just just you said,

(17:00):
let's set all of that aside. Let's pretend that none
of that criticism exists. Let's pretend the representation of transsness
is perfect in this film. It's still a bad fucking movie.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
It's a bad movie. The music is bad, the music's terrible, nobody,
the choreography isn't good. It's not a good story. It
doesn't make sense why any of the characters are acting
the way they do their desires. It doesn't look good. No,
And so then on top of it, you add this
really just like fuck ass portrayal of transness that the

(17:32):
movie would not exist without the whole the movie only
works based on this idea of this woman transitioning, and
like the way it sensationalizes it, and you know what, honestly,
if it had leaned into that more, Like I know,
we've all probably seen the clip of the surgery number
on Twitter, and like, if the whole movie had that energy,

(17:53):
it might have been a better movie. Or if it
had let Amelia Prez be the villain she should have
been instead of making her a literal fucking martyr, yeah
and saying that she was perfect, then maybe it would
have been a better movie. But it's just not interested
in doing that. If you like haven't seen the clip.
It's like literally a song about vaginoplasty and they're singing like, uh,

(18:15):
penis to vagina, man to woman. It's like it's unhinged.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
And for me, because I am who I am, I
saw that clip and I was like, I'm really excited
to see this movie. Like I was excited because I
was like, this is either gonna be so bad it's good,
or I'm gonna like find something.

Speaker 3 (18:33):
To like about it, and it was neither. It was neither.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
And like I and all that number specifically is totally
completely different from the rest of the film, which is
the rest of the film is really just like kind
of straight true crime and.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
The true melodrama.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, and to the point of like it's a bad movie,
like the the crime. The plotting of the crime on
a quality level is like law in Order. It's like
it's not that good. It's it's not interesting. It's it's
really really like like just it's you know, I don't
even understand why I'm fucking Zoe's Heldonia is the protagonist

(19:12):
of this film, as you said, like none of their
stakes in the story makes sense. I don't understand why
she even like wants to like commit to like helping
this cartel leader transition.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
I mean I get that, because I don't think she
does it for you know, like altruistic reasons. I think
she does it because she is a lawyer in this
really fucked up legal system and sees the people around her,
you know, working with bad people and becoming really rich
because of it, and so when the opportunity is presented
to her, she just decides to run with it. I
think what I have a bigger problem with is that

(19:45):
somehow she and Amelia Perez become best friends, which either
and because she is our point of view character, we're
supposed to have this buy into her idea that Amelia
Perez is this good, noble, self sacrificing woman, when in fact,
all we do is see her make terrible choices that
her people. And then I think, in my least favorite

(20:07):
scene in the entire movie, so her so Amelia Perez's
wife played by Selena Gomez, you know, moves into the
home with her. You know, she's told that she's a
cousin of her husband, and when she wants to leave
to be with her, the man that she cheated with,
Amelia like throws her down on the bed and gets

(20:30):
on top of her and threatens her in a voice
that is very clearly supposed to be masculine, and it's
supposed to be her former self. She switches coming back,
which is so disgusting because it is like trading on
this idea that trans women have that kind of masculine
violence in them and we're just shielding it with like

(20:53):
dresses and makeup. And this movie is really invested in
the idea that like Amelia pres and the cartel guy
are two different people, and that in transitioning, this woman
has been absolved of everything bad she's ever done, and
yet she can slip back into that very masculine coded violence.

(21:14):
It's just really weird. It's the you know, it's it's
it's bad. The worst thing about it is that it's
just a bad movie. And then everything else is just
like shit topping, and it's it's like, and what's hard
about that scene in particular, it's like you can tell
she was directed that way. You could tell that the
director who had literally no interest in like trans womanhood

(21:37):
at all, was womanhood at all.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Oh yeah, no, was not interested in women like period,
Like was fully just kind of like there there, this
woman did not know who she was. She had, in
my opinion, no redeeming qualities. And I think something that
I for some reason I'm not seeing anywhere on the internet,
but like I felt immediately is that she is like

(22:00):
missus doubt fired, and like the the like well.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
She missus doubt fires herself.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yes, yes, and the alignment yes, and the alignments between
these two plots kind of bizarre, like they have the
same problem where it's like Robin Williams when he becomes
Missus Doubtfire, You're like, oh my god, he's the protagonist.
He's good, Like he's like he's like absolved himself up
everything he's done in as a prior, as a parent,

(22:25):
prior to this moment, and in actuality he's the villain
and he's violating a custody agreement. He's tricking and gaslighting
his entire family. And Amelia Press is doing the same
thing and yet like she's like a saint for it.
She's a victim for some reason.

Speaker 3 (22:42):
But also we're still not We're still letting her use
her new presentation as as deceit as a way to
hoodwink her family.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes, and also like it skips like over the entire
transition by like four years, and I was like, where
was the makeover montage again? Like come on, I like,
you know, I'm again. I'm stupid. I love misstu fhire.
We love misstau fires. So when I heard the log
line like Transcartel leader like trans like she she medically
transitions and secret fakes her own death, I was like,

(23:18):
love that, you know. I love ugly Betty. I love
like really bizarre depictions of trans womanhood. I love trans villainy.
I think that's interesting. I think that's the two point
h of like how queerness can show up on screen
instead of as like what we've always been, which is
like these weird fables or these weird like morality kind

(23:40):
of like lessons.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
And this movie kind of is a morality tale. It
tries to be. It does have this element of being
like a fable or a fairy tale to it, but
it fails at it spectacularly. Yeah, but not but not interestingly.
It's not an interesting failure. It's just a huge megaflop
due to Kaka. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Well, you know who was the dud doo cock of
this entire movie was Selena Gomez she I.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
Kept an eye out for Selena and I wish I
had her.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Her acting is so bad and her Spanish is so bad,
and like she she I don't know why. I don't
know why she was cast in this movie. It feels
like star power first star power. I guess she knew
that she could like buy her way into the Can,
like I don't know if like I don't know anything
about Can, I probably shouldn't allege that, but anyways, I

(24:31):
I just I was constantly like having a hard time
figuring out what the intent of the film was because
I was hoping it would be like a good plot,
and it really wasn't. It was meandering, It was there
were so many different points of focus that were like
I thought, the fact that she opens a charity is

(24:52):
so confusing.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
It didn't. I didn't really.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Get how it folded into the like the narrative as
a whole, and why.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
I just I.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Think what something that you had said prior when we
talked about it was like that they should have just
let her be a villain, like if they had just
let her be evil, and post transition, she kept being evil,
like she kept killing people.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
She kept being a Cartellian yes, like that would have
been sickening.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yes, I mean and something else you also said was
that it wanted to be Banano.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
It wanted, which is the perfect depiction of trans villainy.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Next to Gea Gunn and the All Stars season of Drag.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
Race, those are the two.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
Like and Alexis Mead and oh of god, fuck yeah
alexis Mead and ugly Betty.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
Amelia Press should have been Alexis Mead.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
That literally, I mean, yeah, that's why part of why
I was so excited. But no, it was it didn't
want to do that. It was it was an unfun movie,
and it was a bad musical and you yes, and
they were all bad singers. And and to to make
a trans woman sing outside of her vocal register when
the whole movie is supposed to be about transnis is transphobic,

(26:05):
Like that's that was That's an awful thing to.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
Do to like Carlos Sophia. So you know what was
a good musical. We have now reached the wicked portion
of the recording. We love the transition there.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Sorry, we're just making sure that we're gooding and we
are love the audios working.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Okay, Well, first of all, we were originally going to
do a Glicked episode, but all of us mutually were like,
we have no interest in seeing Gladiator two this weekend.
It was. It was mutual.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
However, Rose very bravely initiated it by calling me a
few hours before we were supposed.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
To get up.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
I'm not feeling it, and I was like, I'm so
glad you said that, because I just watched Gladiator one
and you know, it was it was really the movie
was fine, and Wicked is enough for us to fill
a whole episode with.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah, so spoiler warning, you have been warned. We will
be going in depth talking about Wicked part one.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, we will be responding to I think that a
lot of y'all left things in the Patreon chat that
you wanted us.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
To like talk about.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
We will be talking about all of that and more.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
We're gonna go through essentially like the movie kind of
seen by seeing musical number my musical number. Yeah, yeah, number,
my number are takes. But before we get there, I
will say my my logline. You know, the lead of
the story is I loved it. I loved it. I
loved it so much. I think it I think it
is as good a blockbuster version of the first act

(27:37):
of Wicked the Musical could be, and I think it
justified being split into two.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
Movies, which is crazy you would never think like, Yeah,
I totally agree. I think my I said, I feel
like everybody making the Disney plus like live action remakes
need to take notes from John and Chew as to
how to do a mother how to do a motherfucking adaptation.

(28:03):
I think my kind of thesis walking out of this movie,
which we'll get into more later, is that John M.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
Chew took on the truly.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
Impossible task of adapting this show, which is in itself
an adaptation of, outside of the Bible and religious texts,
the most famous story ever told.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
Yes, like actually two different versions of it, because because
Wicked the Musical is, Yes, it's an adaptation of the
novel Wicked, The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch
in the West by Gregory Maguire, but it's also and
it's also an adaptation of the Wizard of Oz. But
it's also really an adaptation of the Wizard of Oz
the movie. And so this movie had to be all

(28:51):
of those things and somehow manages to do them all
extremely well, insanely well. And I'll say I went into
this movie essentially with no expectations because I was so
sure that this movie could never be what I have
hoped it would be since I was fifteen.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
You were like, this is going to disappoint me. You
said it many times on the podcast, like for years
on Twitter.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
I was in essentially like an expectation deficit. And then
this movie came in and so far exceeded what I
could have even hoped it would be. Yeah, and like
I was, really I was really blown away by it.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, and like again, we'll like keep talking about this,
but it's like the impossible task of adapting this in
a perfect world. What you are doing is you're taking
references and at times like kind of direct duplications of
things we already really loved about the original stories of

(29:53):
The Wizard of Oz and Wicked, sprinkling them into the
narrative will then embellishing them for the updatedness of twenty
twenty four cinema and.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
For and for a different medium, yes, than the source material,
and then creating novelty.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
I like actually creating like new parts of the world,
which a lot of times are blasphemous, like if you
do it the wrong way, right, but he I feel like,
did it the right way every time. And I actually
think that this was really really well illustrated in the
overture because.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
When I'm holding my breast, because from the moment the
overture started, I like I had this moment of like
a computer glitching of realizing as I was hearing the
score seeing the flying monkeys, I was like, oh, fuck,
I'm watching the Wicked movie, right, I mean, it's real

(30:53):
before you even see the monkeys girl, the original Wizard
of Oz font yes, in the winning credits is so
my look at my nipples, they're rock cards. And the
overture of Wicket is already so incredible.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
But then you know, you see Dorothy holding the broom,
and as the Munchkins like running through the field and
the overture is playing, you hear like like a fraction
of a melody from the original Wizard of Oz from
like the Munchkin where it's like.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
It's like the witches, Yeah, yeah, is there. There are
many melodic moments from the original movie that were woven
into the score by Stephen Schwartz when he first wrote it,
Like Defying Gravity kind of cribs a little bit from
somewhere over the Rainbow. Yeah, there's so many There's so

(31:48):
many references. And the thing that I loved about this
movie is the people who made it are so clearly
students of every piece of the source material and have
paid this loving homage to it while making something that
does really stand on its own. Yeah, while still giving
the fans endless numbers of Easter eggs. You know, So

(32:09):
No one mourns the Wicked. One of my favorite, one
of my favorite moments on the whole movie.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
It was probably my favorite song. I think it was
in the movie. I think it was my favorite song.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Arianna Grande but Terra, as she was credited in the movie,
is yeah, the woman, the actress that you are. You
know what what Arianna has to do in this opening
number is so difficult on the acting level, on the
acting level because she has to come out as you know,

(32:43):
this Glinda that we remember from the movie that we
grew up watching and fulfill that part of it. But
she also has to seed that she is a woman
who is mourning her best friend and is putting the
final nail in the coffin of her best friend's legacy
and ensuring that she will forever be remembered as a villain,

(33:06):
and that tension is on Arianna's face for the whole song,
and she only lets it out in little moments, like
I like a line in the song that I've never
really paid attention to before, is like towards the end
of No One Warns the Wicked, when Ariana sings she
died alone, died, and then she throws the torch onto

(33:30):
the effigy of the Wicked Witch of the West, and
I was I was blown away. I couldn't I couldn't
believe what I was seeing. And she manages to reference
specifically Kristen China with and a lot of the other
Glinda's who have come before, while still making it clear
that this is her version of the character, like bringing

(33:51):
her sensibility to it. I loved like when she's about
to leave in her bubble and she like kicks the
thing and she goes, well, I'm gonna go, oh I go.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
It's like sassy, It's like a little like well, it's
a little like Kristen Weggs, Eliza Manelli.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
It's a little like whoa.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
But but you know, on the acting level, Like that's
part of why this was my favorite song is like
the complexity of how this character feels in this moment
in time is so much deeper than what I saw
in the stage adaptation growing up as a kid. I
want to know if you disagree with this, but like
it in this first number, it immediately justifies itself as

(34:31):
as a film because when you, in my opinion, when
you watch the original musical, you know the ending is
supposed to be a gag. It's supposed to be a reveal.
So so Glinda's like Glinda is actually is like her
facade is completely up, Like you don't, Actually I didn't
see the cracks in the facade in that moment because

(34:52):
it's supposed to be kind of hidden from the audience
so that you get the satisfaction of the reveal.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
But because I think, I think it say in the music, Yeah,
it is in the music. That's true. That's true. It's
in the music.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
But but regardless, like the fact that Ari, the fact
that Aria has to be like a politic on the outside,
like a politician in this world, basically making streamlining propaganda
from Oz to make sure that everyone knows that Alphaba

(35:24):
was the ould timate evil while inside having all of
these complicated feelings about the fate of her friend and
her part to play in that. And and I just
did not really expect so much emotional complexity, so much
from from jump, like so immediately, I I love, love

(35:47):
love that she's like you could see on her face
that she's the only one in the room that has
the whole story.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
And and she'll never be able to tell it to anyone, no,
because Alphabet in Act two of the musical specifically asks
her not to clear her name because she understands the
that that will just continue to cause this unrest in Oz.
And I think that what this movie does really well

(36:15):
is investigate the idea of not only what is it
to be wicked, but what is it to be good?
And we see Ariana wrestling with that from the very
first moment of the film.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
I we have to come back to that. I could
talk about that for thirty minutes, like because like the original,
sorry I'm already going, But like the original, Wizard of
Oz is this crystal clear depiction of good and evil.
It's a very it's rudimentary Hollywood storytelling. One oh one.
There are good people and there are evil people, and

(36:51):
it's there's nothing more complicated than that, And what Wicked
does in the book and then in the musical is say, oh,
it's way more complicated than that, and the people that
you thought were good are bad, and people you thought
were bad might be good or maybe they're all this
kind of you know, middle this this this nuanced thing
and nobody's right.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
I thought that there was just.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
So much in that in that first moment, and when
they I also love that when they told the backstory
to Alphaba. I was talking to our friend Cherry James
about this, who pointed this out to me that the
fact that Alphaba was raised by a bear comes from
the book, so like right away they're bringing things from

(37:36):
the book in that had skipped the musical into the
movie adaptation.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
And it's so important because I think you can you
can listen to the Wicked soundtrack or have only seen
the show once and forget that the whole reason that
Alphaba becomes the Wicked Witch of the West is because
she is an animal rights activist and an eco terrorist.
From the very beginning of the movie, they are showing

(38:01):
why she becomes such a staunch defender of the animals
because when she was totally, you know, abandoned by her
father because she was born green. The only people who
showed her any sort of love and care were these
animals and sort of her sister nessa Rose and I
have beef with Yeah, I want to talk to her. Yeah,

(38:22):
it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Also, it's like this is plant like the bear raising
Alphaba is I'm gonna be I'm going to be like
annoyingly like analytical about like this in general. So if
you're not into that, this is not the place for you.
But like something that's I think I think will be
even deepened by the Part two of this story is

(38:44):
like a narrative on class and how animals exist in
class within this society, and thinking about the bear as
like a kind of like, you know, a caretaker for
a wealthy governess.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
You know, from the very beginning, the only animals we
see are you know, in domestic position, yes, serving humans, yes.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
And yet when Alphabe is raised in this world, like,
animals are still a part of society, and that becomes
less and less true by the time we get to
like the meat of the story where they're grown up. Yeah,
it's just I'm so excited for more parts of the
book to be put into the story.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
But we will. We will give our thoughts on what
we think might be coming in part two. Yes, but
for now, let's move on to Shizz Chizz, which I
think we I think essentially like I didn't get why
they had to enter on a boat, but then I
was like, Okay, so this is clearly going to be
a theme park ride and I will be there opening day.

(39:46):
Oh yeah, that's going to be stunning. And at Shiz
we see one of my first problems with this movie,
because I do have I have a couple. This is
not this is a great movie I loved. I have
a few things that I didn't like. One of them
is the over exposed backlit lighting that is carried on

(40:11):
throughout the movie and that everyone has been kind of
complaining about on Twitter since we first saw the images
and first teaser for this movie.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
And this is also something that the Virgins really wanted
us to discuss.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
Yeah, and it's really exemplified, I think in the Shizz scenes,
which are so kind of washed out and backlit. And
it also I just don't know why so much of
this movie takes place during the daytime and like really
bright daytime, like it's it's it's the wizard and I
it's popular, it's even defying gravity takes place during the day.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
I you know, I'm not like a good I don't
think I have a great trust with worthiness on this topic,
specifically because I am colorblind, but I think I could
personally see things off with like the grading and like
the contrast of the light. I like am perfectly happy
that I'm fine with the fact that things are happening

(41:06):
in the daytime, because to be honest, when things happen
at night and movies, I'm like squinting.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
I'm like, what the fuck is happening in there? Like,
you know, like it's like we can't find a happy
medium between this overexposed like really like gray scale color
grading and then like the final season of Game of
Thrones where you can't see anything on screen and you
have to turn the brightness on your TV up all
the way.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
And a big reason that people online were mad about
it is because when the first images of the Munchkin
Land were like leaked online or whatever, you see the
technic color, and then that technic color is kind of
like washed a little bit muted in the movie, Yeah,
and it's kind of like the whole like the the

(41:50):
one of the most novel, if not the most novel,
thing about the original Wizard of Oz. And why it's
one of the most famous, why it's the most famous
story over ever told, is because it represented this crossroads
in Hollywood from black and white into technicolor.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
I mean the moment where I you know, I was
watching the Original Wizard of Oz movie earlier this week
and it still gags me every time when Dorothy opens
the door into muncheon Land and it suddenly is in technicolor,
and the color is beautiful. It's so beautiful to this.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
Day, and like and like the thing is, those were
old cameras. Those are old ass cameras.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
We have the technology, yes, but.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
And so so part I was like a little back
and forth on this because I personally.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
Am not I would. I would, This is.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Very twenty four of me, But I actually would rather
something have a kind of point of view in the
in the enema, in the editing of the cinema and
the enema, then to watch something that is like garishly colorful.
I think a lot. This is an insane thing to

(43:01):
bring up, but I think a lot about when I
first watched Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland and how a
disgusting movie. A disgusting movie. And I thought the color
and the animation is so it's disgusting.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
It's a huge CGI slop. It's like that meme of
name one thing in this photo. Yeah, that is what those.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
Movies are so like, I don't know, Like part of
me feels like if they had gone full out color
with the maximum extent of technology that they had, maybe
I would have felt like this was too as you
might say, Marvel, you know, to CGI to updated.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
I do appreciate that so much of this was practically
built that the CGI is I wouldn't say it's used sparingly,
but it's used as much as it needs to be used. Yes,
and no more. But the overexposure is one of my
few problems with the movie, but it really did not
disrupt my enjoyment of it. Another easter egg that you spotted.

(44:03):
Oh so in this opening scene, you know, Elphaba's coming in.
Her sister gets like taken away from her. Also, nessa
Rose has huge tips, huge go her and then Alpaba
uses her powers in this sort of uncontrollable way and
a carving of the wizard is knocked off and you
see underneath it that there is an older carving of

(44:25):
a bunch of sentient animals, which is showing that animals
have always been these, you know, like really important members
of Ozzie and society, but in the era of the Wizard,
they have been pushed to the margin.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
And cast it over erased. Yeah, there's there's I like,
I'm so excited to rewatch it because I feel like
the John im Chew of it all and the world building.
It's like every single frame has so much in it,
and that's just like one of those moments.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Yeah. Then we get to my other one of my
other ripes with this film, which is Michelle Yoh wow, wow,
look wow. Michelle Yo is an amazing actress, and I
will say that some of her choices I don't necessarily
disagree with. I think that she really sells how sinister

(45:21):
Madam Morble is, and she does that by really taking
the character down, making her slower and more menacing. And
that's really good except for the fact that Madam Morble
is supposed to be this county diva character she supposed
we can't she supposed to be can't be. She is
a character that is performing for the people in the

(45:42):
back of the house, and that was not what Michelle
Yo was doing. And I just think it was a
real missed opportunity to cast someone sickening like Cherrilee Ralph
who played Madam Morble on Broadway. I think it would
have been so fun to have a different kind of
deva in that role, because her moments that she really

(46:04):
needs to hit, like her speech to Elfha about the
beginning of the wizard and I, or her you know,
delivery of you know, this wicked Witch, like those moments
were very lackluster for me.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, so so I did. I did I personally, and
this is honestly one of the few things we disagree
on when it comes to a wicked But like I
did not come out of the film with that take
on Michelle Yo. Like I I'm I'm a little bit
of a stand I kind of think Michelle Yo can
be in anything, and I.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
Would like it.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
I also personally feel like Madam Morble I was I
didn't have never cared about this character before. And because
Michelle Michelle Yo is like an Academy Award winning actress,
like she lends a flesh to Madam Morble that in
my opinion wasn't there before.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
And I enjoyed that.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
And I also personally like, I'm not gonna complain about
like non singer singing, like the kind of talk singing.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
I'm gonna complain about it. It was like forty seconds,
like but you need those forty sec Yeah, yeah, but
like she was, she was singing as good as Jeff Goldbloom.
In my opinion, I think Jeff Goldbloom brings his innate
Jeff goldbloomness to the part, and I don't think. I
think Michelle Ye what she brought. Michelle Michelle Yo was

(47:22):
playing Madam Morble as like Marjorie Taylor Green, and I
wanted her to and I wanted her to be Sarah Palin.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
That's well, no, that well, okay, Marjorie Taylor Green is
also a little campy. But but I see what you're saying.
I definitely feel, you know, John and Chuo like kind
of Michelle Yo kind of said no when when she
was first off of the part, she was like, I
don't know how to do this, I can't do this,

(47:48):
and John, she was right, she was like, no, no.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
I know you can. I think it was wrong.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
I think that she'll just be in like ever project
he ever does. Honestly, I I personally liked what she
gave the film, but I one hundred percent agree as
you've explained it, I personally am I'm inching toward your
slide in the fact that she definitely is in a
slightly different movie. She's she she gives more realism.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
It's a very restrained performance. It's just a Morrible's supposed
to be over the top. She is. She is supposed
to be the wicked witch that she is making Alphabet
out to Lida.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
Really, oh, that's really smart. Did you ever see like
the lists of people that like auditioned for every y
because Cherylie Ralph did audition.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
J Loo was what, my god, I'm so sorry, Well.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
Virgins, I hope they didn't like fry your ears right now,
But like.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
Jlo, that was crazy.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
That's crazy crazy, And also like, that's not a rule.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
That doesn't seem like a role Jaylo would ever go for.
I kind of want to see it. She would have been.
I want to see her tape. Okay, we got to
keep this moving forward. So I mean, I'm in no rush.
Are you in a rush?

Speaker 1 (49:07):
No?

Speaker 3 (49:07):
But I just want to talk about the Wizard and
I right, which is a really it is?

Speaker 1 (49:12):
This is so if no one warns the wicked is
when like Ari is here the Wizard and I is
when Cynthia is here.

Speaker 3 (49:18):
And I have to say, you know, we've talked about
Cynthia over the past couple of months on this podcast.
She has been kind of annoying in the press. I know,
the whole my is your pussy green thing was really
you know, kind of it definitely soured me towards her.
But even though we should just for journalistic integrity, the
Virgins should know that. Cynthia has since walked back those

(49:41):
comments and said, I, you know, maybe I should have
talked to my group chat first, but I think what
I was, what I felt about Cynthia was like all
of that aside. I knew she had an amazing voice.
I love that performance of pursoning Alphie at the Kennedy
Center Honors from last year. I think top ten best
YouTube links. I think she's incredibly talented. I thought she

(50:04):
was going to be fine. I thought she was going
to come in be fully serviceable and really know more
than that, and she proved me so wrong. From her
first song. I was absolutely spellbound, pun intended, breath taking
by her and the Wizard and I and not even

(50:26):
just because of how good she sounded. It was actually
sometimes in spite of how good she sounded, because she
took every every chance to really show us Alphaba's like
deep insecurity and she but she also showed a side
of her that was really like playful and hopeful. And

(50:47):
we talked a bit about this yesterday that you sort
of had this feeling that she was almost too innocent
in this first movie. I think she kind of needs
to be so that we to really sell her journey
into who she will become. But she is at her
softest in this number when she's thinking about this potential

(51:07):
future in which she gets degraenified. And I love the
moment where she is like playing with the colored glass
and it spins and for a moment like the colors
like cancel out her skin and we see kind of
like what she wants. And it's so heartbreaking, because I mean,
this song has always been heartbreaking because there's I want,
It's the I Want song, and there's so many direct

(51:30):
allusions to who she will become. So happy, I'm so happy,
I can melt a celebration through it alls that's all
to do with me, and you know where this character
is going to end up, but it's she so powerfully
makes you root for her. And that moment, like I
love at the very end, when she's on that cliff

(51:50):
looking out over the desert and right before her final note,
the like music stops and it becomes very quiet, and
you really like sit with this character and feel her
desire so badly, and that is such a credit to
Cynthia's performance.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
One hundred and ten percent. So I also walked into
the film with doubts about Cynthia for different reasons, though
that were solely based on the trailer, which I think
the clips of Cynthia's acting performance, her facial expressions were.
I just there were things about the fractions of what

(52:30):
we saw that felt hollow or they felt like they
were there, weren't choices, they weren't like bodied. I also
like walked into this film as an urenator, so like
the scales were kind of tipped and in my viewing,
in my preconception of like what the movie could be,

(52:50):
and just as you said, they were completely proven wrong.
I aside from the fact that Okay, did you notice
that Cynthia would not stop doing the fucking bear smile.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
It was she kept doing the like like this, like
you were just kidding. But I like the corner of
her mouth going upwards, the Mona.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Lisa smile constantly constantly bringing up one corner of her mouth. Anyways,
that's a little silly thing what Cynthia.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
Does well she does I think she kind of sings
out of the side of her mouth a little bit.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Yeah maybe, yeah, yeah, but yeah, that smart was so
it was constant throughout the film. You please watch out
for it if you go see it. But you know
something that I the way Cynthia proved it wrong to me,
just as you said, is like in this song. In
every song she sings in this movie, she shows off
her ability as an actorial singer, Like as a musical

(53:50):
a musical theater actress has a completely different task than
just someone who can fucking belt right. And Cynthia's acting
within the songs, the emotional actorial quality of her singing,
it was like better acting even than when she was
in dialogue.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
A lot of the time, like and she looked sickening,
so Alphaba's look she like comes in wearing like head
to toe like Archival issimi Aki. Yes, the huntiest boots
I've ever seen, Yes, Kanti Kunty Hunty. I would wear
her nails when she the outfit that she wears when
she has like the long bray down down the middle

(54:27):
of her back like that, I would wear that outfit
head to toe. I would low key wear everything she
wore in this movie, everything she wants except her really
ugly nightgown.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Oh yeah, and the next song on the like innocence thing.
So I've like, just like I've been thinking a lot
about what what I've what I kind of wanted from
both of these characters walking into the film, And I think,
you know, I had said to you, like Cynthia's Alpha

(54:58):
Ba in this movie is very interior. It's very, in
my opinion, restrained at times. There's a purity to Alpha
Ba that is like it kind of sits in what
I would describe as victimhood, and there's this kind of

(55:19):
like there's this demurity honestly that that that that Cynthia
brings to Alpha Ba. And I think part of and
I feel like I had originally like that was kind
of a critique I had. It was a critique I
made against Cynthia's like portrayal of Alphaba. But like, honestly
in our conversations, I think what I'm really realizing is Ari.

(55:39):
And we'll talk about this more. But Ari built on
a Christian Chennai performance did a ton more than just that.
But like she kind of built on a foundation. Cynthia,
in my opinion, did not build on Idina didn't have to.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
No, Adina's Alphaba is much more snarky, sarcastic, sarcastic. She's
very much like emo girl.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Yes, And I think I maybe I think that's what
it was, is I kind of wanted the emo well
emo girl in a hard edges kind of way, like
I almost wanted Elfha, but to have maybe not more
agency because that's not the point of this this act,
but like more assertion that she knows she's the smartest

(56:21):
person in the room and that society has not caught
up to that. But you, you, you really I think
pivoted me in understanding that you have to have this
arc in the character, you have to have the before
to get out.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
To see her as this vulnerable, hopeful person who even
though she has been beaten down and subjugated her entire
life so far, by her family, by the people she
lived with. When she's presented with this opportunity, she does
let herself believe in it, yes and not, and it
makes her inevitable fall or rise, divine gravity like that

(57:00):
much more powerful and heartbreaking. And that's really shown off
in What Is This Feeling? Honey? You see their two
performances collide. I love one. Is This Feeling? Is one
of the standout numbers in this movie for me. I
love the The choreography was very stompy, stop the musical,
Stop the musicals which I've seen on Broadway. It's like

(57:21):
very like Matilda the Music Hall. It's like we are
revolting children. There lots of just like stomping on the
ground with your feet. I like that, honestly, I've always
it was a definite choice, so it gave it, gave
it a style. We also get to see Bowen eat
an eight count up in this number. We forgot to
mention Fanny and Fanny and Dooley, Fanny and COOCHI I

(57:43):
can't remember the other one's name. Fanny is yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
But the two best friends are characters taken from the
book that weren't in the original musical, so the characters
taken from the book as Glinda's kind of like bitchy sidekicks.
Fanny was a girl in the book and they turned
her into a gay man because duh. But yeah, no, this,
this song is such a sleigh. I loved everything about it.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
And also this Glinda and Alphaba have never been gayer
than they are in this movie. And from this number,
like the chemistry and the repressed homosexual longing is so
evident and it's so fun and I just love this number.

(58:34):
I think I.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Can't remember if we talked about this in our like
a virgin like Wizard of Oz Wicked episode, But when
I watched Wicked or when I even as an adult,
I am stupid. I like literally never picked up on
the lesbian subtext ever.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
That's crazy. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure I was reading
Glinda Alphabe fan fiction when I was, you know, fourteen.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
You were the first person to inform me of the
Gelfy ship shipping fandom that I think, I feel personally
like the film does such a better job of deepening
the connection between these two characters in a way that
is like sapphic, in a way that is like platonically romantic,

(59:27):
but who knows how long it'll stay platonic.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
Yeah, because this movie is about many things. One of
them is compet Yeah, about these these women like thinking
they need to force themselves into you know, heterosexual desire.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Right, yeah, right, yeah, compulsory head, I didn't realize what
you're saying. Now I understand you're talking about compulsory heterosexuality,
which I love because, like I I remember, like as
a kid, like watching Wicked and being like like Fierro
and Bach are like not interesting, like in my opinion, honestly,
the way the musical is written, like the fact that

(01:00:04):
you know, the the you know, whoever winds up with
Fierro and whoever winds up with Bach, it's like such
a throwaway, like it's you know, because these two women
don't care about the men.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
They care about each other.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
They don't care about the men at Fierarro.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
Fierro is really just something for them to fight over.
He is like an externalization of the tension between them. Yeah,
because they are more important to each other than these
men are.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
Yes, yes, and and in that also like they the
men I think are more interesting and that this love
triangle kind of there's like a cuckolding kind of thing.
Like I saw someone on Twitter say that Fierro is
like challengers ing like Glenda and Helpaba, which I think
is really funny.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
I also, well, we got to talk about Bach before
we talk about Fiero.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
How did you feel about SpongeBob? I think he's so ugly.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
Cherry was also talking about how you know, you get
just like a touch of SpongeBob in some of these vocals.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
You get a little bit of.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Like Nasa, he's oh, Nasa, he's nasty.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
I think he's hot. You just think that because he
looks trans massed.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
I'm not I'm not as sham. I'm I'm not proud
to be saying this. I when Ari like home wrecked
this man.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
She did not. That has we have moved on from
that narrative, right right, Sorry, she did not a home
wrecked Sorry sorry, what what did she do?

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Then? No?

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
And that's not me challenging. I'm like, actually, this fell
in love while he was already in the middle of
leaving his wife, and he made the decision. I think
the timing was bad, but she she did not home.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Wreck Yeah, thank you for correcting, because I wasn't paying
enough attention to the tabloid, the tabloid of it all
enough to actually grasp the details. However, my point is
like this man was meme to death, and I remember
seeing all of these photos and being like, that's the
ugliest man I've ever seen, And then when he showed
up on screen, I was like, I want to sit

(01:02:08):
on your face so bad. I thought he was so cute.
I thought he was I would. I was more attracted
to him than I was.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
You should be you should be in jail. Okay, you
know who I was more attracted to than either of them.
Doctor Dilman shot up. Something Bad was the moment that
I had pre selected as when I was going to
pee during this movie, and I'm so glad I didn't.
I held my p and in fact I didn't really
have to pee, and I'm glad I didn't because Something Bad,

(01:02:41):
I think is so much better in this movie than
it is in the show. Because by having the animals
there meeting with doctor Dilmant and singing, elf, what's Alphabe's
part in the musical? You understand the stakes of you know,
the like kind of the a plot of this movie,
which is you know the tension between the animals and

(01:03:02):
the wizard and AUSI and society. And also doctor Diloman
is fucking cute. Yeah, and his with his little spectacles
and his sweater and like all the little gadgets that
are like set up for him like to use, like
how he pours his teapot with his hoos.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Yeah like he yeah he, And I mean Peter Dinklage
like as an actor, like lends such an astuteness, like
a prestige to this character, and the stakes of this
character are so important to Alphaba and like the engine
of the rest of the film. So I just I
love you know, how he was done. I would much

(01:03:39):
rather this is crazy, but I would much rather watch
a cgi animal than like an actor dressed up as
a goat, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Like sorry, I do think it still could have been
a Dina Manzell playing to doctor Dilman, but we will,
we will get to her. Also love that just like
in like the kind of like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
Uh social hierarchy of this like school and Alphaba as
like kind of the the underdog, the one that's like
hated by everyone, like the loser.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
Yeah, And what is and what is a loser at
school to.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Do but like make friends with your history teacher.

Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
That is exactly how this story goes.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
And then Alpha believes doctor Dilman's and runs into someone
in the woods. A new bombshell has entered the villa,
and that is Biero, played by Jonathan Bailey.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
And his first action on screen is jumping off a
horse mounting a horse in the craziest way. He he
he like put if you if He literally like plants
his hands on the horse and launches off of it
like a fucking rockhead, like like legs back.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
Nobody gets off of a horse like this. There's no
reason for him to get off a horse of it.
I like him to get off of me like that,
or onto me like that. I have I have never
needed to eat someone's ass more that I have needed
to eat Jonathan Bailey, as Fiera's asked, I have always
seen the vision with him. But there is just something
about a gay guy playing romantically in a musical. It

(01:05:09):
just it always hits right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Your your tweet really distilled the history very well from
y Honestly, Rose said that this is this, this is
a lineage, it's a legacy, it's a legacy for a
gay man to play a sexy heterosexual romantically in a
Broadway musical because there are virtually no straight men in

(01:05:34):
musical theater. And of course that's like how he is sexy.
He is sexy because he is attractive to all genders.
And John m cho I don't know who made the choice,
whether it was like Jonathan Bailey or John m Chow,
but like they made this character distinctly bisexual, and I
mean distinctly is maybe it's not explicit, but but he.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
Has so he flirts with all genders.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
He has vibes with multiple genders, even if it's just
like a second on screen.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
And like in the press tour there was like Fierro's bisexual.
Fierro's bisexual.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
I was like, shut the fuck up. Like I was like,
I don't know. I was like, don't do that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Unless they're gonna show Fierro's sucking box clit in the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
But the thing is like he but I like, after
seeing the movie, I was like he was by and
that made his character more interesting. Like he is like
the the original, the original portrayal of Fierro, He's kind
of just this like Jock. He's like a dumb yeah,
and he's really with a heart of gold, and he's
a cog in the in the machine of the plot.

(01:06:40):
He's he's not, he's a little inconsequential and and and
Jonathan Bailey's fierro like insists on something a little more
his He does apparently all of his own stunts. Like
there's a moment in Dancing Through Life where he literally
like steps on two books and then slides the books together,
and like he literally did that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
Yeah, the way he uses his body was incredible. He
was so commanding and sexy and like boyishly charming. His
voice sounded great. I mean, the whole Dancing through Life
number was so fun. Although again, like it was so backlit,
and yeah, I wish it hadn't been. But I thought

(01:07:24):
the parkore was really cool.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
The cylindrical like kind of there's we we get a
lot of a lot more kind of steam the kind
of steam punkification of Wicked in this.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
Scene, which I appreciated because it does give Oz a
very distinct style and makes it feel like a very
specific world that's different from other fantasy worlds like this,
you know, integration of technology and fantasy elements, Like it

(01:07:57):
has a very distinct visual style.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
And that visual style, the choice to make it like
a little steampunk is like textual, Like like the original
original Wizard of Oz has so many themes that that
translate to America in the Industrial Revolution and the apex
of technology and an industry that is kind of overtaking

(01:08:23):
a munchkin land that is overtaking farmers that's overtaking like
you know, people that live in rural areas. Yeah, that
the machine like sets and props I think were just
enough to give us something that was like true to
the original story while still being completely new and twenty

(01:08:43):
twenty four.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
The Ozdus ballroom sequence was like I think in some
ways is the emotional core of the movie, you know,
like putting aside how fun it is with like the
animals playing the instruments and stuff. When Alphaba comes in,
she has been tricked into coming by Glinda, and so

(01:09:06):
she does this dance to sort of prove that she's
like above it. But what Glinda realizes, what Glinda at
this point, what she realizes is that she actually is
not above it, and she really does care. And I
think it's that more than the fact that Alphaba has
like done this favor for her with getting her into
Madam Morble's class that like finally bridges the divide between them.

(01:09:29):
And the moment where they're dancing and Glinda wipes the
tears off of Elviba's cheek is so beautiful, and you know,
they sell this relationship so well, and I think it's
I think it's really easy to watch the musical and
like take for granted that you know where these characters

(01:09:50):
are going to end up, and like you can, I
think actors can fall into the trap of playing the
future and not the present. But we really see their
relationship changing and crystallizing in this moment and that is

(01:10:11):
solely because of their talent as actresses.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Yes, like they're full they're going full Meisner, Like the
connection is crazy between them. You can you can see that,
like when Cynthia cries in this in this moment and
in a scene that is like sometimes a little if
you like watch a musical, like it's a little silly,
like the choreo is like a little silly, and they
totally sell it to you. They sell what is like

(01:10:36):
a really critical turn in their relationship when they kind
of realize what if not what they have in common
at least what they what they like about each other,
what they empathispathize about each other. How they've like, how
they kind of wordlessly bridge a divide.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
It's and they're they're so beautiful. They're each also making
a concession, like Alphaba is conceding like she's making she's
allowing herself to be vulnerable elf. Glinda is allowing herself
to be silly or stupid or like lame, you know,
in the eyes of their classmates. And they're really meeting

(01:11:14):
in the middle in this moment where they're doing something that, like,
on its face, is really hokey, this kind of goofy
interpretive dance, but it's about so much more than that,
and I think it's so beautiful when everyone around them
starts like, oh, doing the dance with them, So you know,
I love that analysis. It's just really lovely. And then
it leads into you know, another high point of the film.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Oh wait, wait, wait, I'm so sorry. I have to
go back real quick, because I completely forgot that the
animals like play the instruments in the Ozdesk ballroom service
workers exactly, and also like the Ozdesk ballroom in this
world is kind of like an underground club.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
So it's under the river.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
So of course in this underground like you know, DIY
party venue, queer cafe. Yeah, we have animals who have
been outcast from society as like the primary entertainment, the orchestration,
and the reason that this space is fun is like
because of the animals, which is so fucking cool.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
And you know they've got like a talking sloth sucking
dick in the bathroom.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Yeah, for like fifteen bucks of fifteen bucks a minute.
No I I and I have to say, I have
to call you in here because in this film there
is the engine, the ethos of alpha. But and why
she makes the choices she make have a lot to
do with are up against a social construct of animals

(01:12:43):
should be seen and not heard. And that is exactly
the commentary in a movie called Catstone Dance. Girl, Can
you help me understand why it's okay in this movie
and it's not okay and that movie because both are
about it's.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
A good movie and that is a bad movie. Both
are about class doing this with you again, Catstone Dance
is simply a bad movie.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
One of the things I'll say about or rather something
that that I think the Ozdest Ballroom crystallized for me,
at least talking about when you were talking about like,
you know this movie totally just watching this justified you know,
a two part film, like we get so many scenes,

(01:13:33):
you get to take so much more time, and like
the Ozdest Ballroom scene, like the choreo, it's so slow,
and I don't think we would have gotten that like
emotional Catharsis if we didn't have as much time as
we had in that scene.

Speaker 3 (01:13:48):
Yes, and yes, And my other major problem with this
film minor problem, minor problem, but maybe my biggest of
the minor problems is that it uz drag on a bit,
especially in this middle section. It kind of SAgs. And
it's not that I would cut any scene specifically, it's

(01:14:11):
just that I think it should have been tightened up
so much more, because like at the end of every
musical number, there's like a five to ten second pause
for people in the theater to clap, and you don't
need that in a movie.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
I didn't even realize that, but that's probably because I
was clapping and.

Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
It just doesn't have the pace that a musical does,
because in a musical you have to keep the audience
engaged every second, otherwise they will lose their suspension of
disbelief that they are buying into to be watching this
happening on stage, and I think some of that energy
should have been brought to the film. So the pacing

(01:14:52):
was off for me. I really felt the two hour
and forty minute runtime. But did you be I didn't,
you did. But it's a it's a it's a minor gripe.
And now we get to another high point of the film.
This is Ariana Grande's magnum opis magnum obis her Oscar
and submission clip. I will say it Golden Globe winner

(01:15:15):
and Oscar nominee, not winner nominee, Ariana Grande.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
I popular h I actually think if we look at
what happened to Chicago, if we look at what happened
in Dream Girls, I actually really think she could win it.
I think that both of their nominations for for the
Oscars are secured a locked, but I do think ari

(01:15:42):
could win that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
She certainly has the campaign power because this is the
biggest movie and they will put so much money into campaigning,
and it's it is the it is the movie of
the year.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
Like I think it's I think I personally feel like
it will be bigger than Gladiator, like by by marginally,
but like I think that people are going to be
talking about Wicked a lot longer than they're going to
be talking about Gladiator.

Speaker 3 (01:16:08):
I just I don't see her winning an Oscar for it.
Maybe for part two, who knows. But Popular, Popular or
was so perfect. It really was the moment when Ariana
stopped referencing the Glinda's who had come before her and
made the role her own. She in this movie. There's

(01:16:30):
not a second that she's on screen that she's not
using her time, that she is not fully invested in
the character, that she's not making really intentional choices, that
she's not active and activated, you know, like her comedy,
like every little line read. I love the moment of

(01:16:53):
when she like she delivers when Alphabet says popular and
arian and that goes right right, yes, so good. Yeah,
all of her movement, like her jumping onto the chandelier
or jumping onto the balcony, Yes, her high kicks, Yes, incredible,
Like she's like she's using every inch of her body

(01:17:14):
of her you know, like magnetic charisma. And it really
proves why it was so right to have a pop
star play this character.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
Yes, there's even I can't remember what riff it is,
but there's a there's a moment where she goes like
a little like she does like a second long kind
of Ari riff, or it's not even it's an Ari riff,
but it's like a pop riff, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
Like, Yeah, I don't mind the rifts so much in
this song, but I think in the movie as a whole,
there was a little too much riffing.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
Which I disagree with. I warmly welcomed all of the riffing.
I not a novel thing to say. Ari was to
me the most captivating performance in this film. I, as
you said, could not take my eyes off of her.
The entire film Popular is a perfect exemplification of that.

(01:18:05):
And in in and outside of this song, she is
doing this beautiful like amalgamation of of of what is
a Kristin Chenowitz Glinda like giving us minor like like
she gives us the perfect like she's a beautiful vocal

(01:18:26):
impression as she does, a beautiful vocal impression of Kristin
sprinkled throughout the performance, but not be labored. In my opinion,
it's like.

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
Used, So I wouldn't say it's more an homage than
an impression, right, Yes, it's an homage.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
But also if you know Ari, like she is that girl,
Like she saw this musical when she was ten years
old and it imprinted on her. And when she was ten,
that was when she started preparing for this role.

Speaker 3 (01:18:52):
You know what I mean. It's a lifetime. It's a
role of a lifetime.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
And it really shows throughout the film in this and
in this song that she was able to perfectly balance
what was an homage to Kristin Chennowitz Glinda enmeshed with Ari,
who is a true genuine theater faggot with a capital F,

(01:19:18):
like she is in her own private life going through
a rack of clothes and going you know like she
she does that, she is that girl. So we get
a little Christian and then we get a little Ari,
and then we get a little bit of this secret
third thing, which is her going right Like there's this hyperactivity.
There's a kind of like when you expect Glinta, when

(01:19:40):
you expect Glinta to zig, she's zags right Like, she's weird.
She's kind of wacky. She the way she kind of
like juts out her leg, or when she like throws
herself on the bed and does that funny dramatic thing,
or like I'm also thinking about do you remember like
inshes like right before she accidentally volunteers to be Alphaba's roommate,

(01:20:02):
when like she spotted.

Speaker 3 (01:20:03):
Like scurrying behind the scene and.

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
You hear her a little heels cluck, like those are choice, Like,
those are beautiful choices between the directing and ari that.
I just I was so I could not take my eyes.

Speaker 3 (01:20:17):
Off of her. No one could have played this part
but her, I agree. Sorry, not Lady Gaga. Not No
Gaga was supposed to be Alphaba. Oh right, we're right.
Wait there was Amanda Seyfred was right in the running,
and that would have been great. I think she's a
little too old. I read like Katy Perry auditioned. That's
crazy crazy, it is not a woman's.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
But yeah, she she she proved everything about herself in
this song. I just I will, I will not stop
listening to it. When I was a kid, this was
my favorite song in the musical.

Speaker 3 (01:20:54):
It wasn't mine, but it like almost is in the movie.
So I think of popular is the part of the
movie that SAgs a little bit for me, Like from
popular to one short day, I like, it's like I
don't remember much from it, which is how I know,
like it wasn't imprinting on me a lot. Although I
did really like the scene in Doctor Dylman's classroom, how

(01:21:16):
they changed that from the stage musical in which it's
just done through lighting in a choreography, and instead here
they bring in the poppies, which Alphabet uses to make
everyone fall asleep, which is obviously a nod to the
original film.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
And that's quickly followed by another easter egg, which is
when Alphabet gets on the bike and she's miss gulching yes,
and they put the lion cub who is going to
be the cowardly lion into the basket and the and
and the lion like pokes out of the basket in
the exact same way.

Speaker 3 (01:21:48):
And they also even use a little bit of the
do Do in the score. Oh my god, it's a
very very like subtle moment. The scene between Fear and Albaba.
I thought Jonathan Bailey and Cynthia Rievo had great chemistry.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
Which is honestly, you would not I was not ready
to believe in that no offense. But yeah, no, I
I really you you you said previous that I'm not
that Girl is kind of a dud of a song.

Speaker 3 (01:22:18):
It's a it's a bit of a snooze. It was
in the musical, so I'm fine with it being that
in the movie, and Diynthia made that song so much
better in my opinion. It's a it's a bit of
a skip for me. Wow, But it always has been,
so I don't think it's the fault of the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
But the thing is, tell me that when you were
not a teeny little baby, you would not like sit
alone in your room and think Hen's touch.

Speaker 3 (01:22:45):
I didn't. It's not in silence. It's not also the
song that really hits I actually I actually prefer Glinda's
reprise of it in act too. Oh interesting, Okay. Then
we then Alphaba and Glinda go to the Emerald City

(01:23:07):
and we go into you know, the final act of
the movie, which I think the like the last forty
minutes of this movie are like brilliant. It's Stune Ralli
King from start to finish. I love the design of
the Emerald City. It really is like visually different from
anywhere else we've seen it's so much more green. It's
so much more like tac dial Well, It's different.

Speaker 1 (01:23:28):
Instead of it being the monochromatic Emerald City, it's like
many different shades of green and then like a pop
of yellow, a pop of blue like it. It feels
more lived in, and it also feels like the book. Honestly,
it feels like like old school in a really good way.

Speaker 3 (01:23:47):
One Short Day has always been one of my favorite
numbers from the show, and it was turned up to
a hundred because so I knew. Of course, going into this,
I was sure that aDNA Menzel and Kristin China With
were going to have some sort of cameo in this movie,

(01:24:08):
and I even thought this was likely the place where
it would be oh wow, But I did not think
that they were going to have full roles and like
a whole new song written by Stephen Schwartz, written by
Stephen Schwartz, who also has a cameo in the film
as the guard Well says the Wizard will see you now.
And also there's a cameo from Winnie Holtzman, who wrote

(01:24:30):
the book of the show and helped write the screenplay
of the movie. She is the woman in the crowd
who says like, oh he could read the grimmery, he
must be a wizard. But the Kristin adena cameo. When
they came out, I screamed in the theater. I also
squealed yeah. And they were so good. They were so funny.

(01:24:52):
They're playing off the dynamic that they had in the
original show where Kristin is like the scene stealer. She's
like really fun. Any adenas like a little more like
serious and cunty. I loved Adna's yeah moment.

Speaker 1 (01:25:07):
I so it is such seopled fan service. I'll, I
know this is so un fun. But like this this
part of the film, I don't I don't want to
change it. I don't want to edit it. I don't
want to take it out. But it was like totally separate,
like they are Idna and Kristin, like they were not characters,

(01:25:28):
you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):
But that's fine to me.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
But I but I almost will it's so meta, but
I well, yeah, I like that their their function in
this is to literally be a part of the Ossian propaganda, right,
the erasure of a mythology, uh, the rasure of the
the of like why the wizard? How the Wizard came

(01:25:51):
into power. There's also another easter egg in their original
in their new song where uh, Jeff Goldbloom says oh
o maha, which is like where the Reserve is from, right, and.

Speaker 3 (01:26:04):
We get to see each of them with their new counterpart,
which is beautiful. But the handover the mouth, it's so funny.
It's like it's ridiculous, and like, I will agree, it
does take you out of the movie a little bit,
but it's in a way that I want to be
taken out of the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:26:22):
Yeah, I think for for us, for the consumers that
we are, Like there are people that are seeing this
movie that have never seen Wicked. There are people online
that didn't know Wicked was a musical, like that's great,
that's crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:26:34):
That's crazy to me, And I'm like, what the fuck
are you talking like the Wizard of Are you dumb?

Speaker 2 (01:26:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:26:40):
I mean I'd be curious to know how other people,
like people that are not die hard Wicked or Broadway
Stands like feel about that cameo.

Speaker 3 (01:26:50):
I think it's so obvious, like there might as well
be a neon sign hanging upon that says this is
a cameo. Y.

Speaker 1 (01:26:57):
Yeah, which sorry to back to this cameo, but for
me and I have to be fucking real with you,
Stephen Schwartz was the doo doo kaka of this movie.
I was infuriated, infuriated because I you know, I'm not
a standstand I didn't realize it was Stephen Schwartz. No
one told me, I don't know what this man looks like.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
I don't care.

Speaker 1 (01:27:19):
So when you have a banger of a song, the
most extravagant maximalist, Baslerminian like vision of the Emerald City
coming to a climax, giving us these beautiful moments with
like Christian and Idina and then coming to a close

(01:27:40):
in the original soundtrack where someone says the Wizard will
see you now, and yet it's Stephen Schwartz, just hollowly
kind of saying the Wizard will see you now.

Speaker 3 (01:27:53):
And I loved it, and I'm sorry, but.

Speaker 1 (01:27:55):
He he had the privilege of playing a character who
is a queen in like the original Wizard of Oz,
you know what I mean, Like the the gatekeeper with
the kind of broom for a mustache.

Speaker 3 (01:28:08):
Who was played by the actor who plays the worst.

Speaker 1 (01:28:10):
Right girla like he's such a zany can't be a
like unforgettable part of that film, and Steven's.

Speaker 3 (01:28:19):
Wortze just kind of threw it away, and I opinion,
I thought he was great whatever. I was happy to
see him kindly disagree. So then Alphaba and Glinda meet
the Wizard, which you know, the final skip, the final skip,
Sentimental Man, this song sucks. That is when you should
go for your pee break. I think this soley is
the song kind of boring. But then there's a whole
like dance break after where the Wizard like does kind

(01:28:43):
of a soft shoe routine. And then also there's this
whole bit where he's like showing them his plans for
what will be the yellow Brick road. This is when
you pee during the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:28:52):
I think, yeah, this, I think this is the worst song.
I mean, I didn't not enjoy. I still enjoy myself
because I love Jeff Golbloom, but yeah, I think that
more than something bad, more than I'm not that girl.
I think Sentimental Man is like so like not interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:29:09):
But then after that, the scene where Madame Morrible comes in,
Alphabe gets the Grimmery, which literally looks like a children's book.
It's like giving good night Moon.

Speaker 1 (01:29:18):
It's very origami, but that's like just steampunk it all.

Speaker 3 (01:29:21):
She there there is this like herculean task which in
the span of like a two to three minute scene,
Alphabet has to realize that that the Wizard is a fraud,
realize what he's doing to the animals, lose all of

(01:29:41):
the hope she's ever had for her future.

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
Her entire life completely changing.

Speaker 3 (01:29:47):
And then decide to become this rebel anarchist. And it
is a tall order for a very short scene. But
I think Cynthia Arrivo does a really good job acting
that journey, and you were there with her on every
step of the way, and you understand how she gets
from point A to point B, which I think is

(01:30:08):
a very tall order. It's devastating.

Speaker 1 (01:30:11):
Like this scene for me is like why I'm like
she has the nom like she is the alphaba, like
it is. It is like the stakes of it are
carried by her and we haven't even gotten to defying
gravity yet.

Speaker 3 (01:30:27):
Like it's so devastated.

Speaker 1 (01:30:29):
And also like the I love how growth, the growth,
how grotesque the transformation of the monkeys was, because in
the original Wizard of Oz, the monkeys are supposed to
be are the are horrifying. I was terrified of them
as a child, like and when they're like, you know,
in pursuit of her and breaking through the windows, like

(01:30:50):
it's horror, it's a horror, like it's really really good.

Speaker 3 (01:30:56):
I also think this this is where, like this leaning
into defining gravity is where we really see that tension
of what I brought up earlier, which is we're not
just examining what it is to be wicked, we're examining
what it is to be good. And we see how
Glinda is so like tied to the system, tied to power,

(01:31:20):
that even though she has seen hard evidence that what
the people are doing is wrong, she still thinks that
to be aligned with what is perceived as good is
the same thing as actually being good.

Speaker 1 (01:31:37):
Oh that is wow. I love the way you put that.
That's like, but it's the beating heart of the story.
It's this story, as you said, of like the activist
versus the institutionalist right and the institutionalist and the activists
both kind of having like this perilous relationship to what

(01:31:59):
they they previously believed in what they believe now and
the choices they then make and and then eventually split in.

Speaker 3 (01:32:09):
Having it's like and the realizations, you know. So now
we're at divine gravity, the final sequence of the movie,
and it's so heartbreaking because you have in this moment
these two women who love each other so much, maybe
just as friends, maybe not I think, I think not,

(01:32:31):
these two women who love each other. One of them
wants to disrupt the system. One of them wants to
uphold it.

Speaker 1 (01:32:38):
And you see, maybe not even wants to, but just
like this is what she she has no choice but
to hold the system. And Alphaba asked Glinda to come
with her, and you see, not not necessarily that Glinda
wants to, but that she wants to want to. Yes,
she because they are both in this moment discovering what

(01:32:58):
is at the core of them. Alphabet which is that
she will not stand for injustice and she is finally
going to accept this outcast role that has been forced
upon her whole life, and it's finally going to be
to do something that she believes is right. And Glinda,
which is that she understands that she will never be
able to let go of her desire to be seen

(01:33:23):
as right, even if that's diametrically opposed to what actually
is right to do.

Speaker 3 (01:33:27):
Yes, they're each discovering this inner truth of themselves that
they learn puts them forever at odds with each other.
And it's so heartbreaking and beautiful and they both play
it so well. Literally, like they're standing at the tower
at the top of this the Wizard's Tower, and Alphabe
is looking Aglinda and saying.

Speaker 1 (01:33:49):
Together, we could be bad bitches. And just as you said,
like it, I personally like my original. When I first
watched the musical, I thought it was much It was
not as complex as what how is portrayed here.

Speaker 3 (01:34:06):
It was just like.

Speaker 1 (01:34:07):
Glinda chooses to be an institutionalist. What Ari does in
this scene is do exactly what you said. She wants
to want it. You can see how embattled she is inside.
You can see that she wants so badly to support
her friend, and yet she's not programmed that way. Yeah,

(01:34:28):
that's it's not how she was raised. And I loved also,
like I can't remember if this was in the original
musical or not, but like Albaba asks her, she asked,
she pops the question essentially, and Glinda doesn't. Like, let's
scissor on this broomshead and Glinda doesn't answer the question.
Deflects and then like makes a fashion choice for Alba
the cap yeah, which is like exactly what her character

(01:34:50):
should do. It's it's so amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:34:54):
So the defying gravity sequence is a lot longer in
the movie than it is in the show, as it
should be, and as it should be, the stakes are
really ramped up. They give it. They they do sort
of marvel fy it in a way with the whole
hot Air Balloons sequence, not in a bad way. Not
in a bad way, because I do understand, because you again,
like it's justifying this being the end of a movie

(01:35:18):
and it's twenty twenty four. The stakes have to be
higher than they are in the stage show for you
to feel like this real sense of closure that will
get you through the next year until we get Wicked
Part two. So I think that was the right choice
to make. I think it works. I love, love the
choice to have Alphaba jump out the window with her

(01:35:41):
broom and fall for the cape to like she gets
tangled in the cape and yeah, for her to fall,
and I like that she sees her younger self. I
think it could have been a more brief glimpse. I
don't think it needed to be this extended moment. It
was maybe like ten to fifteen seconds too long. The
fact that she reaches out and to herself and imbues

(01:36:06):
that lyric it's me with a meaning that it has
never had before in any production of Wicked, feeling that
she is feeling her and her child choosing herself, and
that is how she finds her power and finally ascends
and devis gravity. And then we get her hovering in
the air, her Kate billowing out up behind her in
this direct homage to the stage musical. It's so fucking cool.

(01:36:31):
It's so powerful. The defying gravity has like there's like
four different moments where it ends, and it kind of
keeps going. I really like the chase scene with the
monkeys and that she's sort of like she is able
to use like the propulsion of the monkeys to like
take out the guards, Like there's a reason why this

(01:36:52):
is happening. She's not just hovering and flying around for
the drama of it, even though she is like, oh yeah,
they make it have a purpose in the story. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:01):
She she comes down like she when she's like, you know,
if you care to find me, look to the motherfucking
Western sky and you think she's proved her point because
she flies off and she sings some more, and she goes,
let me just turn this car around and make the
point one more motherfucking time.

Speaker 3 (01:37:18):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:37:19):
It's I was kind of giggling because she does kind
of do like two or three like laps that way,
but every single time, because the song has so many crescendos,
so satisfying, it feels like that the encore. It feels
like an encore. It feels like a big, huge fuck

(01:37:39):
you to everything that she has like withstood up into
this moment, which is exactly what the song is supposed
to feel like. And just as you said, the homage
to the original musical, the expansion of the cape and
to that perfect triangle in that like like uh kind
of like menacing orangey cloud kind of like sun like

(01:38:04):
you know, the sunscape. Like it was so beautiful. It's
a frame in film to stand the test of time
for so long.

Speaker 3 (01:38:14):
My god, I was gagged. I gagged. And then the
movie ends with Alphaba zooming away. We have a year
before part two comes out. I need to see the
movie five more times. I'm seeing it again tomorrow. Oh yeah,
I'm so excited. Well, I really really loved it. Yeah,
it was stunning. Okay, Part two, here's some of my

(01:38:38):
predictions for the sequel. I think what they will do
to build the story out is, well, what I'm hoping
for is I really want an extension of the whole
Wicked Witch of the the Wicked Witch of the East sequence.
I did not love Nessa Rose in this movie. We
didn't really talk about her much, but I think it's fine.

(01:38:58):
She was kind of a snooze. That is a song
that was that is not on the Wicked soundtrack because
it's kind of like more of a refrain in the musical.
What is it? Actually, don't know? It the Wicked Witch
of the East. So it's the whole sequence where Alpha
becomes Nessa Rose uses the Grimmery to put the spell
on back that makes his heart stop. Oh and Alpha
but turns him into the Tan Man, and all the

(01:39:19):
while Nessa Rose sings this song The Wicked Witch of
the East about how she's become this like tyrant, a dictate,
a dictator in munchkin Land. So I hope we get
more of that.

Speaker 1 (01:39:30):
Well, also, like it's worth saying, like I mean, I
don't know. I obviously kept being like, what if Ali
Stoker was in this role. But like, I the thing
about Nessa in the original musical, like she's such an afterthought,
there's never any time spent with the character. She's really
a cog in the plot, and I she wasn't in

(01:39:51):
this film, but but she Yeah, just you said, there's
a real opportunity for her to be a real bitch,
and I'm that would be so much fun, especially since
she has such an important part in the lore of
the very original story.

Speaker 3 (01:40:05):
But what I think we'll mostly see in Part two.
What I'm expecting is because Part two essentially runs concurrently
with the plot of The Wizard of Oz, I think
we'll see more direct references and homages to that story.
Maybe we'll see Dorothy Moore, because she's not in the show,

(01:40:25):
She's really only featured as a silhouette and a voice
off screen. In the book Wicked, she has a slightly
more of a presence, Like she does have a couple
scenes with Alphaba in which she is like really trying
to apologize for killing Nessro's I did not know that.
So that's my prediction. I think we'll see more stuff

(01:40:48):
directly lifted from either the book or the Wizard of
Oz to build out that story. We also know we're
getting two original songs, two new songs that Stephen Schwartz
has written. I would guests, more cameos. Maybe we'll get
in Orbert lyobuts moment. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:41:05):
I So for the visions that are unaware, I think
you're the one that told me this that the second
act is kind of famously like lackluster.

Speaker 3 (01:41:13):
Yeah, it has. It has some bangers I love, Thank goodness. Uh,
their bridges you cross, you didn't know you cross them
to you cross is maybe maybe my favorite like line
of music on the whole show. No good Deed is
like really great and uh, as long as your mind
is really sexy and sensual for good it is going

(01:41:36):
to have us all you know weeping. Yeah, I well.

Speaker 1 (01:41:40):
And also if the virsions don't know, it's like it's
a in the musical, it's a big time jump, so
it jumps years and years and and all of this
kind of ossy and propaganda has been disseminated, and like
Munchkin Lenen, everybody has been like, you know, brainwash, brainwashed whatever,
like just mediafied into believing that Alpha but is the

(01:42:04):
ultimate evil public enemy number one. Glinda is this politician
in service of that message. Fierro is like the head
of the guard in pursuit of this like mass witch hunt.
It's a dystopia and it's it's all of the darkness
of the original Gregory Maguire's story that I think enriches

(01:42:25):
so much of of of Yeah, what it's gonna what's
gonna happen?

Speaker 3 (01:42:29):
Who knows, Maybe we'll get a sex scene, Maybe we'll
see if alphabus pussy is green.

Speaker 1 (01:42:33):
Well the as long what is that as long as
as long as your isn't that a sex sce a
sex scene?

Speaker 3 (01:42:37):
I mean it's a love scene. Well there's they're they're
like hooking up in a forest. And you said, I
think we discussed the see and at the end she
goes for the first time, I feel.

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
Wicked, right, I think you said this in our Wizard
of Oz episode of your But like the sex scenes
in the book are like kind of eclipsed. It's nothing graphic, right,
but there's no it's but apparently this is where like
the intersex thing, Like, yeah, it's like from Fiera's perspective,
he like has some commentary about Alphaba's like genitalia. He

(01:43:12):
sees something between her. There's literally like two or three
references in the book.

Speaker 3 (01:43:16):
I think when he says like he sees like a
scar hor something might have been removed.

Speaker 1 (01:43:22):
What Like that's crazy. Well because like from the very beginning.

Speaker 3 (01:43:27):
I was actually listening to the first chapter of the
Wicked audiobook recently, and in the first chapter in the prologue,
the Witch is like following, you know, like the the
Fabulous four around and they're all kind of like gossiping
about her, and they're like, I've heard that she is
a hermaphrodite. I heard she was she's with a married man.

(01:43:47):
I heard she is a married man.

Speaker 1 (01:43:49):
What.

Speaker 3 (01:43:50):
Yeah, they transvestigate her, they do. They transvestigate her.

Speaker 1 (01:43:55):
That's I also didn't know that in the book, Glinda
and Alphabet kiss.

Speaker 3 (01:43:59):
Yeah. It's so oh sapphic wow. I mean Gregor Gregory
maguire is gay and so like the books are very gay.
I love that. I've never read the book. I think
I might have to. It's very dense. I read it
for the first time when I was in middle school,
and like I didn't even know that it was becoming
a musical. I just saw it in a bookstore and

(01:44:19):
I saw the Witch on the cover and was like,
I need to read that because the Wizard of Oz
was like my favorite thing in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:44:26):
Yeah, I think I would love to see more more
built out in the I was gonna say animal rights activism,
but like just the the social narrative like in this story.
I would love to see more.

Speaker 3 (01:44:43):
Yeah, I would love to see Alfa but actually doing
something like I would love to see her because in
the in the book, she when she has this relationship
with Fierro, she has become this sort of like underground
eco terrorist who they like somewhere in the Emerald City.
I think, so maybe we'll see more of like her

(01:45:05):
activist journey. I would love for her to bomb. And
there's also a part where Madam Morrible dies in the
book and then Alphabe like bludgeons her dead body.

Speaker 2 (01:45:14):
What.

Speaker 1 (01:45:15):
Yeah, I cannot wait to read this. I yeah, I'm like,
I'm like, I hope it. I mean, they could only
be so dark.

Speaker 3 (01:45:24):
You reminded me.

Speaker 1 (01:45:25):
Yesterday that the Children's It has to be PG in
order for them to make the maximum amount of money.
But it is like a really dark like this is
the latter half is a really dark part of the story.
I'm really curious like your theories on Dorothy, like what
you like. So I was like actually thinking about it

(01:45:47):
on the bike right here, and yesterday you were like,
I think it could be like a sickening cameo, or
maybe it'll just be the back of her head. There
is there's like a tease photo of like you know,
the back of the four like in front of Oz.
I am thinking that because this will be probably the

(01:46:09):
highest grossing movie of the year, that it will absolutely
be a star like I think Dorothy will be played
by a star. And then this is my prediction, they
are going to announce that John M. Chew is adapting

(01:46:29):
The Wizard of Us.

Speaker 3 (01:46:30):
I don't want that to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:46:32):
I think that is what's happened with Perfection. No, you
really can't, but I think that that is what's happening.

Speaker 3 (01:46:40):
That should not happen. I agree with you.

Speaker 1 (01:46:45):
Unless no, unless their Wizard of Oz is PG. Thirteen
because the Frank L.

Speaker 3 (01:46:55):
Baum story is bomb L L. Frank Baumb It's dark
as fuck. Like it's dark if you want, but if
you want a dark adaptation, watch Return to Oz. It
already exists.

Speaker 1 (01:47:08):
Did you also see that Mombi was mentioned in this.

Speaker 3 (01:47:10):
That's one of the professors.

Speaker 1 (01:47:12):
That's crazy, like need a momby cameo.

Speaker 3 (01:47:17):
Wow, So how long?

Speaker 1 (01:47:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:47:20):
How long? Recordings? Having a long time? Holy fuck? An
hour and forty four minutes. Honestly, y'all, this this is
longer than what we recorded yesterday. You're welcome, and it's
better and it's better, yeah, really better. We hope that
you liked this very thorough analysis of Wicked. I'm sure
that as we both maybe see it again, keep listening

(01:47:42):
to the soundtrack, we will have more thoughts. I would
imagine that we'll get a trailer for part two, probably
at the Oscars. That's when the trailer for part one
came out this past year. Oh but I'm sure, like
I'm sure that by the end of the year we'll
see some like official first look images. It's insane to

(01:48:03):
think about, but it's a year away. We have a
year long intermission. I'm gonna pee for the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (01:48:09):
You will start peeing now and you won't stop next November.

Speaker 3 (01:48:14):
I am gagged.

Speaker 1 (01:48:16):
Virgins. Please get in the comments, get in the chat,
tell us everything. This is our this is the most
important episode we have made the like a virgin Patreon
thus far.

Speaker 3 (01:48:26):
Okay, so we recorded this twice for you for you
and I have fun, had so much. I mean, I
talk about we good first, Like I said, I was
going to talk about it, but I'm too tired. Like
I could get into a whole other.

Speaker 1 (01:48:40):
Section where we're talking about like constructions of class in
the original like l frank Baum, Wizard of Oz and
how they've like been brought into like they skipped the
musical and are maybe being looped back into this wicked story.
But you know, maybe we'll have follow ups next episode.

Speaker 3 (01:48:58):
Until then or if you carefund me looks in the
Western Side