We're Here We're Queer We Suck (feat. Mark Indelicato)

• Actor Mark Indelicato makes Like A Virgin HISTORY by being the first person who acted IN a TV show to guest an episode about that TV show!!! 
• Mark gets into what it was like working with the whole Ugly Betty cast and crew, including America Ferrera, Vanessa Williams & costume designer and trend forecaster Patricia Field
• Plus, tidbits from the set of Hacks!! And lots of Fran & Rose audibly fangirling!!

And, there's even more of our conversation with Mark for Patreon subscribers! Buy our stupid merch! Or if you're broke follow our finsta @likeavirgin42069

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
You walked so that Kurt on Glee could grapevine.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
That's right, she's sheen.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
I'm me no ma, not ny no, No, what is
your childhood tradah? I am a cook shocker.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
You know what's going down the floor like us round.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Welcome to Like a Virgin, the show where we give
yesterday's pop culture today's takes.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm Ra's Damu.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
And I'm Fran Toronto, And I don't know why I
like that. It's your birthday, Yeah, it's birthday sing to you? No, no,
please don't. I think it would be a great gift
for you to not sing wow.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Well, but I'll let it slide with your birthday.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
Well you wouldn't let I don't know if you would
want Would you want me to sing to you on
your birthday?

Speaker 3 (01:08):
Are you like?

Speaker 2 (01:09):
This?

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Is?

Speaker 4 (01:09):
Actually? Like I feel like there are two different kinds
of people in this world. People that like happy Birthday
being sung to them and people that don't.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
No, I mean, it's always mortifying, but I would rather
it happen than not happen.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Do you find the same?

Speaker 1 (01:22):
I mean I did sing I was, I did sing
Happy birthday to you last night at your birthday party,
But I wanted to give you a private sort of
Marilyn Monroe singing, oh okay version of it.

Speaker 4 (01:33):
Oh, we were gonna sexy version. Oh I see, so
you were you were saving the sexy for this record.
I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, you looked great. Yesterday I
asked all my friends to meet me at a bar
and dress glam, and I will say not very many
people were on theme, but you were on theme. Rose.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, I did my version of glam, which was I
wore a dress, but I wore it over jeans. I'm
very much into that sort of like early two thousands
dress over jeans thing that's been happening. And Jill or
is that my dellery? Duff, it's all the girls, it is.
Even when I did my Buffy rewatch recently, there was

(02:13):
an episode where Buffy was wearing a dress over jeans
and I was like, well, wow, mother says, so, then
I suppose it's what we're doing. Did you have fun
of your birthday party last night? I really did.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
I mean my goal was to just do something that
was casual and easy and had like food and drinks,
and people could show up whenever and get a good
group picture. And you were able to sneak into the
group picture before you snuck off.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
I was.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
I literally I left, I said goodbye to you, did
not to go bye to anyone else, and went and
got in my uber that was waiting for me at
the curb.

Speaker 4 (02:47):
You were like, You're like, and that's a wrap? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:51):
How late? Did y'all stay at whatever? That place was
not that much longer? Honestly, we the night ended a
nice and early.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
I said, you know that it would end at ten
because I didn't want people to like pull up late,
and I think we stay there until ten thirty. But
like you know, I don't know how you like to
do birthdays. I always throw something for myself, like every
single time, whether it's like a vacation or a party
or a bar meat or a dinner or something. But
I like that event to be not on my birthday

(03:22):
so that I'm not stressed on my birthday because I
feel like I've learned the hard way that like coordinating
and producing my own birthday party is time consuming and
stressful and not a good way to spend your birthday.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (03:35):
Usually we go on like a vaca or something I
feel like, but we've been.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Do I know it feels weird not to be, you know,
like in the desert somewhere celebrating your birthday this year. Well,
I'm very happy that we'll be on Fire Island right
before my birthday, the.

Speaker 4 (03:51):
Simon, That's what I was just about to say. Yeah,
Fire Island is going to be that moment. I honestly
was texting folks about, like folks that are maybe staying
at her house, trying to get those rooms filled. And
I'm so excited to go back. Rose like me too.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
I do think though, I'm fiending for a vacation and
I think I'm gonna have to go away before before
the summer. I really need to go somewhere, But I
don't know what to do.

Speaker 4 (04:23):
Are you eyeing anywhere in particular?

Speaker 1 (04:26):
I don't know. I think I either want to like
fly somewhere and like do something, but that I also
I like don't necessarily want to like go by myself.
And then I was thinking maybe of driving somewhere and
going to a spa that could be nice in a
hotel and just getting Spa treatments for a couple.

Speaker 4 (04:46):
Yeah, like Boutiqui spa hotel. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
yeah that's that's sexy, that's mixy.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Are you doing anything self carry for your birthday? Are
you self carrying lo? Yeah, I'm self carrying. Laurel and
I are gonna go.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
We're gonna meet at the gym and do the hot
tub and sauna that are at my gym, and that's
what most do you go to? I will not say
on the pod I go to. We'll cut it tell
me yeah, yeah, Phoebe can bleep. I go to Brooklyn.
It's very it's pretty. It's closer to you than it
is to me, actually.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
And that's good to know because I've been looking for
a gym. Do you recommend?

Speaker 4 (05:26):
It's amazing and it's so bougie and really good vibes,
like it's a pretty like there's a there's a lot
of queers, there, a lot of lesbians. I don't see
any dolls, but I never see dolls at the gym.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
I don't really want necessarily to go to a gym
where I'll know a lot of people. Yeah, but you know,
I don't like at the gym. I want to be invisible.

Speaker 4 (05:52):
Yeah yeah, and I am highly visible in my gym,
but I don't talk to anybody like I don't like
I kind of stay in my own lane and like
mind my own business. But I am very very loud.
I'm I will Okay, I flirt.

Speaker 5 (06:10):
I know that that's a lie.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
I do flirt sometimes at the gym. It happens. I
do wear I also wear very loud clothing in the gym.
I'll be I'll like wear a T shirt that's just
like it'll be like I don't know, it'll say like
drug addict transsexual not actually, but like we should we
should sell a drug addict transsexual TA shirt?

Speaker 1 (06:30):
You should, Yeah, coming to like a virgin four twenty
sixty nine dot com. By the way, we have merch
at that website. If you want to go there and
buy some now. It would be a great birthday present
for Fran if you did that, and if you became
a Patreon at patreon dot com slash like yes, and
that is a great birthday present. Do you feel another
year older and wiser?

Speaker 5 (06:50):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (06:50):
Actually, Like I know that's kind of like a throwaway,
like sometimes it's like a throwway thing to say or
thing to ask, but like I really feel so own.
And you know, anybody that listens to this podcast, I
think knows that I've just a lot has changed in
the last year. And I think last year, during my birthday,

(07:12):
this state that I was in, I state that you
were in, the literal state that I was in.

Speaker 5 (07:19):
The state of California.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
Yes, I was a different girl. I was identifying differently.
I was not identifying differently, but like, I feel like
I was just kind of learning about who I was
and knowing who I was. And this year is just
like I really do know who I was, and I'm
comfied with who I am and like reveling in that.
And I think that that's like a very like I'm
in my thirties thing.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
You know, that's so magical.

Speaker 4 (07:43):
But I mean, no one knows where in my thirties
and no one should ever know. So don't you dare
tell it where my age is shut down?

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Fuck you better.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
We're bleeping that Phoebe, we're fleeting. We're bleeping.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
My age friend said last night that she always wants
her age to remain a mystery.

Speaker 4 (07:59):
A mystery. So if you if anybody ever asked you, like, oh,
I don't know, late twenties or something I don't know.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, I go up, I say, oh, I think she's
like early forties. Yeah, then people are like, wow, she
looks so good for her as.

Speaker 4 (08:11):
She looks so good for her age. Yeah, that is
that is the move. Yeah, but I don't have anything planned.
I'm like literally gonna run errands. I'm gonna get groceries,
I'm going to take care of Mysel'm going to clean
to my house this morning. Cut my flowers?

Speaker 1 (08:25):
Did you start unpacking any of your boxes? I find virgins.
I finally went to frans new place last week for
the first.

Speaker 5 (08:32):
Time, and it is lovely.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
You have so much space.

Speaker 4 (08:36):
I was gagged.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
I think probably our apartments have like roughly the same
square footage. You just yeah have walls, yeah yeah, and
I just have one off, but so much space.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
But you you do need to do.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
Some unpacking, I think the virgins I do. I'm like
really behind, but the virgins should know that we You
and I were watching with Laurel Charleston Mulin Rouge and
inducting her into that which may or may not she
had never seen it, yes, had never seen it. That
may or may not be like a virgin content later
at some point, but like God, I forgot that movie

(09:11):
is I think I I came to realize rewatching it again,
that Moonlan Bruge is in my top five movies. I
think the top five.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
I wonder it's birthday, so let's hear the.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
Okay, Mulan Rouge, Moonstruck, cats don't dance. Oh god, I
don't know. Maybe that's the three I let said five. Yeah,
we said five, yes, and Fran yes and fuck. I

(09:47):
feel like I have. I feel like when I think
about the things that define me, it's always like TV shows.
Is there anything that comes to mind for you that
we've talked about in the pod that was like a
big the Devil?

Speaker 3 (09:59):
Maybe?

Speaker 4 (10:00):
No, I mean not.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Hercules Love Herculess is definitely in the top.

Speaker 4 (10:04):
Oh my god, girl, you got Hercules is one hundred
and ten percent in my top five.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
Two of my top fives are cartoon movies. What does
that say about me?

Speaker 5 (10:13):
Parts of the Caribbean?

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Shut up.

Speaker 4 (10:16):
Wait, I'll think of the fifth. And if I think
of the fifth, then maybe it'll be you know, our
Patreon exclusives.

Speaker 5 (10:22):
Okay, great?

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Great, Speaking of which, today we have an episode that's
all about Ugly Betty, which is very exciting. It's Frans
Birthday spectacular and we are going to be talking with
Marcin Delacado, who played Justin Suarez on Ugly Betty, which
is very exciting, and we have some bonus exclusive little

(10:45):
tidbits from that conversation that will be available on our
Patreon And that's something you can come to expect from
our Patreon content is when we are doing these episodes
with guests, we will be cutting off some juicy little
tidbits and saving them for patrin On so you can
get even more of our conversation with that.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
Uh. I'm just so fucking stoked for this episode, Rose
and like for the Virgins, Ugly Betty, if you've never
seen it before, is a really a wild kind of
like rompy workplace workplace comedy. I would say it straddles
like sitcom and soap opera because it's based on a
telenovela called Betty La Fea and has a very telenovella

(11:26):
vibe in that like a lot of like the plots
and character arcs are very absurd and like ridiculous, But
the story follows obviously Betty Suarez and her family, which
includes Markin Delocado as her nephew and that she you
know is an assistant at a high end magazine called

(11:49):
Mode that's kind of like Vogue, and the whole vibe
is very like devilwars Prada as a TV show.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yeah, because it came out in fault. It came out
in fall two thousand and six, and then Double War's
product came out summer two thousand and six, so it
was definitely riding the wave of that, and the douvors
Prada had been a book sensation, so like that kind
of fashion ee workplace comedy was very in vogue, if
you will, especially with Sex and the City having wrapped

(12:16):
up just a couple of years before. Like that was
the time and pop culture where everyone was on the
hunt for the next Sex and the City and Ugly
Betty is definitely like playing in that world a little bit.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
And I will say this show is very important to Rose,
extremely important to me, and I'm happy to announce that
in this episode we are starting, you know, a platform
wide like mandate to do Ugly Betty rewatches.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
Okay, yes, you.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Can watch it on Hulu. I did a rewatch last
month and I really enjoyed myself.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
Also, excuse my language, this is not a mandate to rewatch.
This is a trend date to rewatch. It's a trend date,
it's a FRAN dated, It's a fran date. I everybody
needs to be rewatching, like you gotta Rose, You got
to push pause on the girl's rewatches. Okay, and we
need to you know, we need to. I already we
need to watch.

Speaker 5 (13:09):
I know.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
But I'm saying this because because you're one of the
primary influencers of girls rewatches, it's you and Hunter Harris
really pushing, really pushing that yes it is. And I
think that, well, it's not your fault, it's just your work.
And I think that you know, your energies could be
maybe like put behind Ugly Betty. You know, a marginalized

(13:31):
Latin trans story, you know trans story, Yes, yes, a
trans story. There's trans people in this show, and there's
Latin people in this show. And you know it's true.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
There are.

Speaker 4 (13:46):
I mean not real trans people, but at least trans characters.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Happy Birthday friend. I wait for this episode to relive
this conversation with markin Delacado, who you may know and
virgins you may know, if not from Ugly Betty from Hacks.
And this is so exciting. We've never talked about a
cultural object like this with someone who was part of it.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
That's insane.

Speaker 6 (14:38):
It's been like fifteen years. I don't think that anyone is.
I don't think that ugly Betty is going to get
me in trouble.

Speaker 4 (14:43):
When you say get in trouble, do you mean like
get in trouble in this era of your life as
in the adult part of your career? Are you talking
about like.

Speaker 6 (14:51):
Yeah, any No, I think like now, I mean I
just like I mean, when I was a kid, you know,
like I didn't really say anything that was controversial or anything.
I feel like now I have to temper myself. But
I'm sober right now, so like I think that I'll
be okay.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
Oh we love that Rose is also not not drinking.
We love we love. Oh you mean like sober in
this very moment. Sober in this very moment. You're like,
I'm sober right now? Okay?

Speaker 3 (15:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (15:18):
Yeah, yeah, cool? Cool? Cool? So can I can I
even ask? I don't know if this is the place
to start, but like, what's your so what's your relationship
to like Betty? Looking back on it, is it is it?
Like I know that it was like heat They were
like fam for you. They still are fam for you.

Speaker 6 (15:32):
Yeah, yeah, they're still fam. I mean I think that
the show, like I feel like we've because it's been
so many years since the show's been off the air,
like we've really stayed family. So like I feel like
my relationship to the cast and like especially like on Ortiz,
who's like my best friend in the whole world. She
like it's so separate from Ugly Betty now, like because

(15:53):
we've known each other longer off the show than we
have like when we were actually doing it, Like we
only did the show for four years, and I mean,
looking back at it, like I couldn't watch I still
haven't seen like a lot of the episodes. WHOA really
I've seen. I've seen three episodes. I've seen the first episode,

(16:14):
the last episode, and the wedding in season four. Those
are the only three episodes I've ever said.

Speaker 4 (16:19):
Okay, okay, back up. So you're the virgin, so we're.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
Gonna tell you. I mean, I was there, but I
was in every episode you were. You were there? Yeah,
I was there.

Speaker 6 (16:32):
I mean I remember I remember like what like the
plots and everything and the storylines, but I just never
watched it because I was so like I was so
embarrassed by being on TV, which I know sounds like
an asshole thing to say. I actually like just like
I was so embarrassed, like but like it was very

(16:54):
It was very much like that because I feel like
there they were very formative years where kids are assholes anyway,
you know, like eleven, I was eleven until I was sixteen,
So like, those are pretty shitty years for everyone.

Speaker 4 (17:09):
Everything's embarrassing, ugly beddy coming out in two thousand and seven,
A lot of not great things about that, media wize,
a lot of not great things about that for you
as a child actor. Something that's amazing about having rewatched
the show so many times, especially now in like twenty
twenty three, deliciously problematic joke, Oh problem amazing, incredible. I like,

(17:31):
and I don't say this with any facetiousness, Like sometimes
I really do not all the jokes, but sometimes I
miss this era where you could say anything, because the
thing about making jokes that are like crazy or problematic
or just feel dated now is that sometimes.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
No, I love it, and I miss that era of TV.
I mean I as you know, as a trans person,
I love every tranny she mail joke, may on ugy Betty.
I wish we were still making them today.

Speaker 6 (18:05):
I mean, I remember one that sticks in my mind
of like a problematic joke. I think it was Wilhelmina
that said something about Betty like and a mud hut
or something like that, like something so wild and like.
The thing is, though, is that, Like, Yeah, I think
that there are plenty of things that obviously don't hold
up now, but I think that, like it's so important

(18:26):
to have had that, Like, you can't learn from anything
unless it's like out there, do you know what I mean?
Like we can't like have like comprehensive conversations about like
political correctness and like representation and like and language, et cetera,
like without examples of it being wrong out or like

(18:46):
being out there.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (18:48):
You can't grow from something that isn't out there and
being like interrogated, you know.

Speaker 5 (18:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
And it's not like it was problematic and bad. It
was still always funny. It was the story Listen.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
It was like one of the it was like the
most popular show on.

Speaker 6 (19:04):
TV, Like, and I think that, like, yeah, I mean,
and the thing is is that, yeah, like you can't
say a lot of the things that we said on
there then, But like at the same time, you know,
I think that people are just so quick to be like,
we can't watch this anymore because they said one thing
that can be read as like transphobic or like where
it's just like girl, I mean, like take it for

(19:24):
what it is and for what it was, Like you
just let it live is what it was.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
And put it in put it in the context of
its time. You can still.

Speaker 6 (19:32):
Appreciate it exactly like Ugly Betty as it was would
never come back in the same way, do you know
what I mean? Like we we've had these discussions before.

Speaker 5 (19:41):
It would be like and just like that.

Speaker 6 (19:45):
Girl, and like I don't know about all that, you
know what I mean, and just like that it's not right.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
It's just like that.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
You know. Well, look, if you ever if you ever
hear back about the Ugly Betty rebate, you better loot me.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
In Divine we talk at it all the time.

Speaker 6 (20:01):
The thing is is that we all want to do
it and like it's it's really it's I mean, we're
all asked about it so often and literally every single
one of us says, you know, completely seriously, like we
would do it. It's just a matter of like what
is it? Yeah, you know what I mean, Like we
and we've had we've like when we get together, we
have these like kind of hypothetical discussions about like would

(20:26):
it be like of a reboot of just like one season,
like a limited series, like of like five episodes, would
it be a movie?

Speaker 2 (20:35):
Would it be? Like what would it be?

Speaker 6 (20:37):
And I think that everyone has kind of agreed that
we would like to do like four or five like
episodes and like you know, four or five like hour
long episodes and like wrap up like all of the
loose ends that were not wrapped up at the end
of the season, of the end of the series.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
Because I will say, I will say I want more
and I would love a reboot, Like I think a
limited series sounds amazing. But I also think Ugly Betty
is a great example of a show that while I
think it was gone too soon, like it never got
the chance that I think, unfortunately a lot of long
running shows had back before everything got canceled after two seasons.

(21:17):
It never got the chance to get bad. It was, oh,
it was good. It was perfect the entire time it
was on air.

Speaker 6 (21:25):
It's very like, I mean, we were so sad when
it ended, because it ended so abruptly, like they just
kind of like I mean to be honest, like the
network just fucked us and like just kept moving it
around and like so viewership was lost. And then you know,
you can argue like, well you just don't have the ratings,
and it's like, well, you moved us from Thursday to
Wednesday to Friday within the matter of a month, you

(21:46):
fucking idiots, Like are you hidding? So, like, of course
people don't know where to find it, Like when it
was on Thursdays at eight, you moved it to Wednesdays
at ten and then Fridays at nine. It's like no
one knows where to find the show. And like also
so this is before streaming services, so like there was
no like you can watch it on Hulu the day after,
Like that didn't that wasn't a thing. So like, yeah,

(22:10):
viewership was lost at the very end because we no
one knew where to find us. And I think it
was just an excuse. Again, like while when you have
things that are so revolutionary and break all of these
barriers and make people like question things and and kind
of like look inward at themselves and the ways in
which like they look at other people like there's going

(22:33):
to be backlash to all of that. And I think
that while Ugly Betty had so much, so much, so
many fans and like such a huge fan base and
inspired so many people, et cetera, you know, there's the
flip side to that, and a lot of people really
didn't like it. And I mean, I think that there's
also it's very parallel again to like the conversations that

(22:54):
we're having now about like banning drag shows and like
you know, like trans like transrites period. You know, there
there was like a lot of conversations when we were
making the show about Justin being a sexualized character of it,
like grooming children, like all of those same things and

(23:17):
rhetoric that we hear now it's just utterly hysteric that
we'd used. It's just recycled. It's just for just applying
it to different things. So it's like or to different communities.
Like Justin was considered to be this overtly sexualized child,
but like in reality, the you would only looking at

(23:39):
him as being sexualized means that you're sexualizing him, do
you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (23:44):
Like, I don't think there's a.

Speaker 6 (23:45):
Show where the writers explicitly made him a sexual.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
Now when that critique would never be applied to a
straight character ever.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Correct.

Speaker 6 (23:53):
I mean, you know two gays too, like boys kissing,
It was just be it was considered to be like
grooming and this and that and you know, all of
the language again that we hear today in reference to
like drag, trans people, gender affirming healthcare.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Et cetera, et cetera. Like it's it's it's the same ship.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
And we just want to say for the record, like
right here and now that like ugly Betty did groom me.
I am gay because.

Speaker 5 (24:18):
I love Justin. I'm so happy that perfect.

Speaker 4 (24:23):
Yeah, I'm gay because of Justin. I'm trans because of
Rebecca Romains.

Speaker 5 (24:26):
She is motherless, Meed is lord girl.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
And I'm gonna keep my mouth up.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
On one Rose Rose, And I have said before Rebecca
Romaine is Transcannan because she was also Mystique, which is
a conically trans.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Character and she and like it's right, I didn't even think.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
Of it, Yes, canonically trans, and like that's fucking fear.
We're not gonna, you know, wade into the weeds of
like you know, trans. Yeah, I'm surely try to do
all that, we're not going to do that, but we
have to say, like trans vengeance is something that is
underrepresented in media. And if I could fake my own
death in a ski accident and come back as a woman.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
And you come back and a white late and paintball people.

Speaker 4 (25:19):
And put myself on the cover of my own magazine
and be like I am here and I own fifty
one percent of this company. All of you family members
that like ousted me before.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
You didn't believe in me, You don't fuck with you,
you said.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
You would disown me. It's over for all of you, Like,
don't fuck with me.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
So I do hope I get the chance to pick
what I death one day. But then the gag will
be that I'll.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
That sounds pretty fierce.

Speaker 4 (25:42):
We'll see I so literally, like I I That's what
I was kind of getting at with the two thousand
and seven thing is like I would absolutely love to
watch a show in twenty twenty three about a trans
woman that fakes thrown death and comes back, you know
what I mean, Like that's iconic, that's amazing, Like but
it's because you know, we have these ideas of like
representation that get where we tiptoe around the stories or

(26:05):
were like we were just like too scared about what
we can happen. Like I don't know if anybody would
ever do that again, And I like.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Know, we need we need more, we need trans villains,
and like it's it's so funny because at the time
the culture had the ability to have a trans villain
because you know of mainstream transphobia and just like the
lack of representation. But it actually was because of that
that we got to have this like delicious character in

(26:33):
a way that I don't know, I don't regular exist
today because people would be too scared of.

Speaker 6 (26:39):
Being I mean, I think that like the only way
that like to in my opinion, representation is only going
to be complete and well rounded if you see people
in every in like playing every role, like everything can't
you can't. Every trans character can't be a victim or

(27:00):
we only see trans people as victims. Like there are
plenty I have met plenty of trans people.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
That sucks. Yes I'm one of them. I've met plenty
of stray people that fucking suck.

Speaker 6 (27:15):
The boys suck, like you know what I mean, Like
people like people are people, and like the thing is
is that you can't fully humanize someone or a community
without seeing all different facets of like the human like identity,
like of like the human condition. People suck period Like
people that suck. I mean, listen, I'm like, I really

(27:39):
truly like feel like you can't. It's not well rounded
representation unless you see all different facets of like the
human condition. And some people just fucking suck. It doesn't
matter what their identity or their pronouns are.

Speaker 5 (27:51):
Say say that.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Okay, you know I have to I have to ask
what was it like working with Vanessa Williams, Because I mean,
if you want to talk about the mother of mother's.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
That, let's talk about.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
I was about to be like, well that's mother.

Speaker 6 (28:04):
And then Judith's other mother will get to her. Oh man,
well Vanessa Williams. The thing is is that when we started,
I I was a huge fan of America Frearra because
sister heard of the Traveling Pants out that maybe a
year or two before and before that got to kick
it up on the Disney Channel.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Was my tea.

Speaker 6 (28:26):
So like when I met her, like that's the only
person that I knew who and I was like like gobsmacked.
But like when we went to set and my mom.
My mom was obviously with me, and Vanessa was there.
I had no idea who Vanessa Williams was, and my
mom was like freaking out by her. And I was like,
who is this and she was like, you'll you'll know someday.

(28:47):
She was like, you'll you'll understand someday. And the thing
is is that Vanessa is just a very regal individual.
Like she is she's the nicest, most caring, nurture person.
But the bitch is scary, like when you first like
just just because she like looks like that, and like,

(29:07):
is just she's established mama, Like she's just she and
she knows she she knows what she's giving.

Speaker 5 (29:13):
She knows she is the divadal herself.

Speaker 6 (29:16):
That's right, and like, but I so I think that
I was quite afraid of her for a minute. But
I think that that very quickly dissipated when I got
to work with her, because it was in the very
beginning of the show, in the first season, like it
was kind of divided, like mode family, you know whatever.

(29:37):
And then slowly but surely, as the season progressed and
then the series progressed, like they we all kind of
intertwined with each other, and my first bit was with
Michael Yuri and Becky Newton, and then that quickly went
into Justin and Wilhelmina kind of working together and kind
of talking. Like I remember shooting the bit where she

(29:59):
she was wearing a blue outfit and she had sunglasses.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
She was I knew, I knew you couldn't see I knew.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
You were going to say this episode where you were
the seeing I gay Mark or like I think Mark
was the seeing I gay Mark.

Speaker 6 (30:10):
And then you took go and then he left, yes,
and so and that was again it was crazy because
I was so intimidated by her, and it becomes so
quickly comfortable with like Anna and America and Tony Plana
that like going in and working with like like I
think at the time, Michael Ury in the first season,
Michael Ury's the age that I am now. So Michael

(30:31):
was twenty eight when we first started filming the show.
So and that's how old I am right now. So
like I think that, Uh, I think that it's also
kind of funny to think about, like me now working
with like an eleven year old. I'd be like, oh,
you know, like it could be very like ugh, you know,

(30:52):
like and I like, I get that now, and so
I think that, like, and the thing is is that
it wasn't like that at all. They were so patient
with me, you know, because you can only be so
professional as a kid. You know, like you're just stoked
to be there and like you're you have all this energy,
you're super hyper, but like there's also all of these

(31:12):
logistics to consider, Like I could only work a certain
amount of hours a day, so like I would they
would shoot all of my stuff and then the rest
of them would have to be there to finish, ok,
and like finish the scene.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
So like they were very, very very patient with me.

Speaker 6 (31:27):
And I think that that was also it it informed
the way that I kind of work now and my
professionalism now because I looked at the ways in which
these people were chipper and happy to be there to
do their job. But also like, you know, when it's
time to shut the fuck up and act, it's time
to shut the fuck up and act. Look, I mean,

(31:48):
and I learned that from Vanessa too. Like Vanessa was
very she's the first, she's the first one to want
a key, key, But when it's time to like get
the job done, mama, let's get get it done, you know.

Speaker 4 (31:59):
The someone saying you know, you'll know some day about
like Vanessa Williams is like that was definitely my experience
as well. Vanessa one, Yeah, I found.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
I I literally liked has come. I So Betty was
my first.

Speaker 4 (32:16):
Impression of Vanessa Williams, which is crazy because she's an
icon of legend, has like a whole breadth of work
that preceded it, and like, but I do. It was
retroactive for me as well, because I remember just watching
it and being like, she's an icon, She's so magnetic.
Everything she says is funny, and even as I rewatched
this past month, like every single fucking joke is so funny,

(32:37):
and and and when by the time they got to
season three and season four there were the guardrails around
the propriety of Wilhelmina were like let down a little bit,
and she got to be wackier and whackier. I'm thinking
about like when she, you know, met the drag queen
that does impressions of her and then she did like
a whole you know, song and dance about it, or

(32:59):
like she just or or in the fourth season where Betty,
I mean America is finally looking like America basically, and
she looks gorgeous and she has taste now and like
Wilhelmina notices that she has taste and it gives her
an aneurysm and she collapses and goes to the hospital.
It's like so much.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
That's the thing too.

Speaker 6 (33:18):
We I think that also, Like the great thing about
Silvio was that, and the writers, like all of the writers,
was that as we like, they really believed in everyone's
individual talent and like and and really like honed in

(33:38):
on what we were all good at and like ran
with that. And I feel like the you know, we'll
talk about it in a bit, but like Hacks is
the same exact way, like Paul Lucia and Jen is
now that we're filming the third season. From season one
to now, they you get in a groove with people
and you like working with them so closely you're like, oh,

(33:59):
why don't they do that? Because there, you know, I
saw a glimpse of that when we were like sitting
around like talking or whatever, you know, And I think
that at first, you know, the Wilhelmina character was very
intentionally cold, distant, not very silly, like not very silly,
extremely hilarious, but like not silly. And then, as you

(34:20):
you know, get to know a person like Vanessa, who
is very whimsical as an individual, You're like, oh, why,
like let's play into that, Like, let's let her do
something silly because she can.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
She's an incredibly gifted comic actress. Just the way she
uses her body, the way she uses her eyes is incredible.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
A look, I mean a literal look, you know.

Speaker 6 (34:42):
And I think that that is like they played to
all of those strengths of her being like this bitch
and this like bitchy devilwares prodra Miranda Priestley type of
like archetype, but like really expanded upon that and let
her have like a lot of fun. And I think
that that is like and they let us all do that.
I mean, Ana Ortiz is like the epitome of like

(35:06):
just comedic genius and that like more is more and
bigger is better and somehow it never Hilda never became
like gimmicky, even though she was doing the absolute most
all the time. And I think that that as like
a comedic actor, to be able to toe that line
between complete absurdity but grounding it in reality is like

(35:27):
the is truly like genius.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
And also having I mean, I was so happy earlier
when you said that the two of you are still
so close because.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
I think I have her tattooed on.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
That, because like your relationship on the show was I
think one of the emotional cores of the show. And
one of the things that I loved about Ugly Betty
and I think that endoored is that it's this like
wacky screwball comedy but it has so much heart without
becoming cloying much and it felt real and it's so

(35:59):
nice to know that it was and that that has endured.

Speaker 6 (36:03):
Yeah, Anna, Like I think that you know, we became
so close so quickly because that was her doing. Like
I think from the first table read, it was like
you're gonna play my son. We need to get to
know each other, and again like that whole feeling like
you have a seat at the table as a kid,
where like you're not being put at the kid's table,

(36:25):
Like I think that that was a little bit it.
There were moments where it was very jarring for me
to be treated like an adult, but I'm so much
better for it because they all treated me like I'm
now treated as an adult working, so like I kind
of got that education really early, and you know, there
were some times where like there was one time that

(36:47):
I forget what it was, but it was like getting late.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
It was like later.

Speaker 6 (36:51):
No, it was early in like season two or something,
and Anna said something. I forget what it was, but
like it was it was kind of harsh, and I
I like remember, I like started crying and it was
like this one thing where we and we've talked about
it like since, where she was like, I just got
so used to treating you like an adult that like
I forgot that you were a twelve year old kid

(37:14):
and like but and so while like that's just an
example of how jarring it could be as a kid,
Like I'm so much better for it, because, you know,
I feel like as I became a teenager and we
finished the series on and I you know, she made
me a better actor. Like I really wanted to impress
her and I wanted to be a good scene partner

(37:37):
for her, and I think that like I wouldn't have
gotten there if she didn't treat me like she treats
any other actor. You know, Like I wasn't given a
pass because I was a kid, and I think that
that's like that's a good thing.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
Yeah, you know, you you've only seen three episodes of
Uglybody I have. I have to tell you, you know,
just just because you haven't seen them, that in case

(38:21):
you weren't aware, you Slade like you you you are
just you Slade. You are a scene stealer, girly like
holding your.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Own against some very impressive and I must I imagine
intimidating actors.

Speaker 4 (38:37):
Yes, so whether you are like performing hairspray on the
empty a or like you know, like all of the shit,
Like you are just such a scene stealer. You are
so magnetic and so big, and yet it's not like imbalanced, right,
you were always like matching the energy of everyone around you,
and I think that's the same in hacks, Like damn

(38:58):
you were just you're so good And I'm honestly I'm
resisting like fangirling to the to the best of my
ability in in this in this year record. But like
you you have to have to know that, like like
I was justin like I'm not a gay boy anymore,
but like I was that and like I know, like
it sucks being I know so many of my friends

(39:22):
now that you know that are in the public eye,
and you know, being a role model is such like
a weird, like kind of strenuous thing. Yeah, but like I,
you know, grew up in a family that didn't understand
queerness and then didn't you know, accept and it's this
is like a very Latin thing too, righte Like there's
there wasn't a ton of like nuance or acceptance or

(39:44):
like even conversations about like queerness at all, because you know,
at least with my household, there's a lot obviously like
a lot of machismo, but it was mostly like we
don't talk about it saying and that was something that
was really beautiful about Justin and his character. And you know,
I I feel like I just grew up with Betty

(40:06):
and grew up with Justin and and had and much
like you, I also had a high school romance, like
and I had a high school romance with someone that
I was in a play with, like and our first
kiss was literally.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
On a stage, so you really were him?

Speaker 4 (40:23):
Yes, our first kiss literally was on a stage. It
was crazy crazy. But I've said this on the pod before.
I work in media because of Ugly Betty. I watched
ugly Betty pre college and I just remember watching America
Ferrera get like treated like shit in like the magazine industry,
and you know.

Speaker 5 (40:43):
You said I want to I said that.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
I was like, and I want to go do that.

Speaker 4 (40:47):
And what's like absolutely insane is like only I'm only
realizing this on my most recent rewatch. I did not
realize this in real time or even with my second rewatch.
Looking back retroactively, I went thrue so many real ass
Teyle Novela asked things that happened in media actually happened
to me, like editor rivalries, like I went to like

(41:09):
a publishing boot camp that like Betty also went to,
like transvengean stories like photoshoot drama, like booking cars from Brooklyn,
Brooklyn to Manhattan to Brooklyn to Manhattan, like you know,
getting too close to your boss, Like oh my god.
That's like Another crazy thing about the show is like boundaries,
like a boundary. The fact that Betty, like they doesn't
have boundary, did not exist, they don't have boundaries, has

(41:32):
no boundaries with her work or her family. Is like
the coming out, like the fact that they wanted to
throw justin a coming out party, like it's just like
no fucking boundaries.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Oh.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
One of my favorite lines in the show is in
that episode where Ignacio says, the guys don't have a
favorite color.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
They like them all, they like them all. We know
you're gay, and that's okay.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
I also, though, we also have to talk about the
way that I mean, we have to talk about the
fashion of Ugly and the way that it predicted literally
everything happening in fashion right now. Like I go on
TikTok and I see like tiny Jewish Girl and all
these other like maximalist girlies, and like Ugly Betty was
the pink print period.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
The thing is is like, I mean, Patricia Field girl,
what hello?

Speaker 4 (42:19):
You know?

Speaker 2 (42:20):
And people mean enough said, people.

Speaker 4 (42:22):
Are not giving pat Fields credit in this show, like
they were only thinking about sex and the city and
all this other stuff she was.

Speaker 6 (42:28):
Because the thing, well, the Devil Wars product came out
three months before Ugly Betty premiered, so and we I
remember honest saying to me like, if this movie's a success,
our show is going to be a success. Like and well, wow,
you know the rest of it. But pat was is

(42:50):
such a character, I mean, like she is an end
to work with. Her is to be like just I
mean like GOB's act. Like we would go in and
have like I would have like two hour fittings, you
know with her and and she would sit I mean
she would sit on a chair with her dogs with

(43:12):
a cigarette and just like and and she would put
me in like the I mean, you know, things that
would never get approved. Like there was a there was
I remember we had to do like an outside scene
and she had this huge black faux for like pimp
coat to the floor and was like, I think Justin
would wear this.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
And they're like like no, like no, I mean. And
the thing is too, is that, like I mean I
was were I.

Speaker 6 (43:40):
Think season three I exclusively wore Mark Jacobs, like all
Mark Jacobs and so and and the thing is is
that like Betty too. Like Betty's glasses, for example, they
couldn't find the glasses, like they just they tried on
hundreds of pairs. America tells this story, hundreds of pairs.

(44:00):
They couldn't find the glasses, and Pat took the glasses
off her face put them on America And those are
Betty's glasses.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
You're shitting me. God, they were on Pat's face. They
were Pat's glasses. That's iconic.

Speaker 4 (44:13):
That's that goosebumps.

Speaker 6 (44:17):
Those were Pat's glasses and she put them on and
they looked in the mirror and they were like, that's it.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Those are her glasses. That's the thing.

Speaker 6 (44:22):
And yeah, I mean America was also wearing like I mean,
if you really look, if you like do if there
was like an instagram like every outfit on Sex in
the City or something for Ugly Betty, that was like
breaking down these looks. Like Betty would be wearing upwards
of ten thousand dollars worth of clothing, and she was
wearing like Gucci skirts, and I mean she was wearing

(44:43):
like new fashion. Yeah, yeah, like I mean, and and
the thing is is that Pat is truly the queen
of like the high low, you know, like you would
be wearing a Versace suit but like you know, put
it with like a belt that she found on Canal Street,
you know whatever. And and her entire team like Molly

(45:03):
and Paolo and Jackie and all of them, like they
also spoke like this shorthand with each other too. That
was like so incredible to see, like from even like
are the people that would dress us like Kevin Mark,
I remember like they were all so stoked to like
work with her, and I think that like it wasn't
lost on anyone, like the legendary legend status of miss

(45:28):
pat and like no one does it like her, like no,
and no one has done it since like her. I
think that there have been very valiant attempts to try
and do what Pat Field.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Does and just it just doesn't. It's just not that
once in a generation kind truly like she was. She
was the moment.

Speaker 6 (45:48):
And and also in speaking to like this kind of
what you were saying Fran about like not of their
not being like one favorite character or like one per
I mean, of course the show was about Betty, but
like no one was also given like preferential treatment based
on like like pat never looked at one character and

(46:08):
was like this is a throwaway, like just put them
in whatever, Like she and the team had true visions
for like what each of these characters individually looked like,
even like Ignacio, you know what I mean, And like
it wasn't it's not always just about like who was
wearing like the newest designer clothing, it's like what makes
sense for this character? And it was very very deliberate

(46:29):
and very intentional. Like I think Hilda was probably one
of my favorite, like aesthetically favorite characters because she was
just so radically Hilda, Like there was no like and
only Anna playing Hilda could wear those clothes in that
way and tell the story that it was telling, do

(46:50):
you know what I mean? Like it was it would
have been if if I wasn't playing Justin. I think
Justin might have looked a little bit different.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
The clothes never wore the character. The characters were the clothes,
and it was such a like perfect symbiosis.

Speaker 6 (47:05):
Yeah, I think that that and and I and I
think that that just lends itself to like people that
genuinely care about like their work too, you know what
I mean. Like there, I think that there was just
there's a true passion there and I and it's like
it was so inspiring to like be around too, because
I mean, you know, we would see our like little

(47:27):
outfits and then you see like Vanessa walk out of
her dressing room and like a vintage for sauce suit
and you're just like fuck, like so fierce.

Speaker 4 (47:36):
The clothes were part of this like authentication of the
characters really, and with Ignasio and Hilda, specifically, like those
two characters were archetypes in a Latin family that were
so scary close to just people in my life, people
in the lives of other folks that I know that
I've watched Ugly Betty, like I have an Ignossio in

(47:58):
my life, like I have a Hilda in my life,
and like and something that you were saying, like you know,
they didn't they didn't have to. It wasn't just like
who's wearing the hottest designer clothes. I think that's something
that's so brilliant about like the language of clothes like
in this show is that, Yeah, it would have been
too easy for you know, if Betty if like Ugly
that they were made today, she'd be like, you know,
stomping out in like a Chipova luena like skirt or whatever,

(48:22):
like you would think, but like what to actually incorporate
thrifting and to know that, like Betty would wear this
butterfly belt right, like.

Speaker 6 (48:29):
Well, that's also like telling the story of like telling
the story of how are these people getting And that
was also Pat had to has a distinct talent for that,
Like when she would fight for things for us to wear,
it would be like, well, he can wear the mark
Jacob's thing because he knows fashion and like found it somewhere.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
He found it at Beacon's closet.

Speaker 6 (48:48):
Absolutely on, like you know, so like she also had
a backstory for how we got into these outfits, like
what what the thought process was when each of these
characters gets up in the morning and gets dressed, which again,
like that's just an amount, that's just an extracurricular work,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
And not all costume designers do that, like I've been no,
most of them do not. Yeah, I've been rewatching Buffy recently,
and like they're in high school all wearing like Dulchanabana
and Prada, and I'm like, I don't know that teenagers.

Speaker 6 (49:19):
Have access to that, and unless it's like a deliberate choice,
like unless it's just like the euphoria of it all,
yeah know what I mean, Like where it's like okay,
like I get it, like you've you've made this world
like this. But like I think that with with Ugly Betty,
they obviously wanted it to be fantastical in some way,
but not necessarily like aspirational in the same way that

(49:43):
I think like fashion now kind of exists on like it,
like for in Euphoria, for example, it's like the intention
is that, like you want all like a bunch of
gen zs to like want to look like them, whereas
I feel like on Ugly Betty, like that was not
necessarily the case, Like it wasn't that you want people
to like want to dress like Wilhelmina or or Amanda

(50:03):
or Betty. But if people identified with the characters because
the clothes made so much sense to the character, then
it just tells a different story.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
I think it's just a deeper story.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
I do have such a deep spot in my heart
for Amanda. I know I love no favorites, but like
Amanda was one of the I love Amanda.

Speaker 6 (50:24):
I mean we always talk about like if we were
to do a reboot that like Amanda would still be
the receptionist at Mode like that. She's like like we
all like have changed and grown and are doing different things,
and Amanda is like just still the receptionist in the
circle desk as long as Becky Newton can play one
or two additional characters like I'm good like her, I

(50:45):
mean Amanda.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
Oh my god, wish another storyline that could not happen today,
but it's so funny, so good.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Like I'm sorry it was funny. I think it was funny.
I don't care.

Speaker 5 (51:00):
It was come for me another brilliant comic actress.

Speaker 6 (51:03):
Oh my god, it was knowing it was knowingly stupid,
you know, I mean, and like, yeah, the thing like
with like someone like Becky Newton too, is like all
of that the characterization that she did of Amanda, like
physical manifestations of it, like the way she would like
walk down the hallway with the hand on her hip
and like so exaggerated like runway like things like that

(51:26):
where you like, looking back, I'm just like, whoa. These
are such talented actors that had such a point of
view about their character. Like I just I'm like in
awe of like the just the choices that they made,
even like and the way that Anna would walk as Hilda,
like that's not the way that she like it, you
know what I mean. It's just these very small things

(51:48):
that I recall that at the time I was just like, oh,
like whatever, they're doing it. But now having matured and
like you know, thinking a little bit more critically about
like my craft and like what it is that I
do for a living looking back at some of the
choices that the Betty cast made, small choices like that

(52:10):
that just have become so synonymous with their characters as well.
Like you think of Amanda like stomping down the tube,
you know, in this very dramatic, like ridiculous way, but
it's because it's like become canon as like that's Amanda.

Speaker 4 (52:26):
Amanda slash Becky, like I think is a great example
of like just like what you can't write right, you know,
like like like her the hand of the hip like
walk swish thing that you're talking about, like immediately in
my mind, I know what it looks like and and yeah,
you can't write that, right you the character.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Well no, I mean you can't.

Speaker 6 (52:46):
And the thing is is that to take something like
you know, to take a stage direction, especially like Wilhelmina
like looks Betty up and down or like things like that,
like you know, sure that can be written into a scrap,
but like the way that that materializes is up to
you or you know and so, and no one could

(53:08):
do it the way that Vanessa Williams did it, Like
Amanda like walks away like that's very vague, you know,
she could have but the choices that Becky made are
like incredible, you know, I mean, and Michael URI's a
master at that stuff too.

Speaker 4 (53:45):
It's this it feels like it's similar to Hacks two,
where like you can tell that in the casting they
were reaching out to people that already had a kind
of way of inhabiting a set, a way of like
speaking talking, and that that helped their characters become so
specific and.

Speaker 6 (54:03):
Like I think in their world, I think that Hacks
and Ugly Betty, I think that like I have, I
immediately felt this kind of electric feeling going onto the
set of Hacks because it felt so similar to Ugly
Betty in just kind of the culture of like everyone
really got along from the jump. Everyone felt like I

(54:26):
felt like there was a real notion that like everyone
is here for a reason, no one is like as
a throwaway character, Like everyone is important, and Paul Lucci
and Jen like really hammered that home from the beginning.
But I think that like the ways in which Ugly
Betty might have told a story like the using clothing

(54:47):
a lot of the time, and like, you know, I
feel like Hacks, that story is told a lot in
like our candor each individual character's candor. I think Paul
Lucci and Jen and the writers of Hacks are like
probably the greatest writers I've ever gotten a chance to
work with. And because it's very rare that you read
a script and like laugh out loud, but we're constantly

(55:12):
all like cracking up in these table reads because the
words themselves are so fucking funny. And so I think
that it's each character has their own like, yeah, their
own candor, their own like flavor, you know, And I
that none of the other characters have, you know, like Ava,

(55:33):
you know, like Hannah Einbinder's like portrayal of Ava, and
Meg's Dalters Kayla and Poppies and Poppies, Kiki and My,
Damien and Carls Marcus are all and and Paul's Jimmy
like they all somehow meshed together, but like they couldn't
be more different. And I think that that also it's

(55:54):
really hard to do, you know, It's really hard to
kind of like flesh out characters with out actively fleshing
them out. Like I feel like one of the things
that was confusing to me when we first started Hacks
is that like Damien kind of pops in and out,
you know, and I've said this before, and I like

(56:14):
that Damien is kind of this enigma. I mean, we
learn a little bit more about him in season three,
but like not you know, but like I kind of
like the idea of him being this person that's just
like he comes to work, he does his job. He's
good at it, and he doesn't have time for nonsense,
you know, and doesn't like comedy. Yeah, And I think

(56:35):
that like there were like I think at first I
was searching for like who is he and like whatever,
and I think that I was just being a little
bit too.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Actory about it.

Speaker 6 (56:43):
Like I was just like it's all like everything that
I need is right in front of me. Like he's
Deborah's assistant. He has no time for bullshit. He doesn't
really like Ava, and you know, Marcus is his boss,
and he has no time for people like Kayla or something,
you know, like And I think that that to have
so little but no so much is a testament to

(57:07):
like apology and jen for sure, because I think that
I was just so confused. It's like what is my
what's my motive? And they were like to do your
job and I was like that's simple. But that's but
like that that says so much.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
You know, it must be a great feeling to have,
you know, had this role an ugly Betty and like
not been sure if you were going to come back
to acting and then come back on a show like
this where it seems like there are so many parallels
in terms of like the work you're getting to do
and the community of people you get to do it with.

Speaker 6 (57:42):
Yeah, it's like, I mean, someone asked me recently, like
how do you choose such great projects?

Speaker 2 (57:47):
And I'm like, I did not.

Speaker 6 (57:48):
I don't choose projects like I'm not there, you know,
like I I mean, after I graduated college, I realized
that I didn't want to go to graduate school whatever.
And I was like, I guess I'll move back to
LA and like try and make it work. And no
one would hire me. Like I'm just going to be
like completely honest, Like no one would hire me. I
could not get a job, Like I wasn't even getting

(58:09):
like a callback for anything. Like it was really bleak
for like a few years. And then twenty twenty happened,
and you know, the pandemic, and I, you know, surely
wasn't working. And then I was like it was November
and I was like, if I don't get a job

(58:29):
by January of twenty twenty one, I'm just going to
have to like go back to school or like do something,
because I'm going to like quit.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
And then I got Hacks in November of twenty twenty.

Speaker 4 (58:38):
Wow. That's I mean, and it's so grateful for it,
like part of what you were saying earlier about just
like what actors bring to the table, and with Hacks specifically,
like I do think that you bring a specificity. I
think every character in Hacks brings a very specific comedic style.

(58:59):
And I think that someone like Meg is a really
great example of that. Someone like Poppy is a great
example of that. It's like irreplicable. I mean, everybody's gonna
try and copy what like you do or what like
Meg's aalter does. Everyone's trying to do what Meg is doing.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
But everyone's trying to do it right now, but no
one's Meg.

Speaker 4 (59:15):
Yeah, And that specificity like lent itself to y just
like the characterization and everything that makes these characters breathe.

Speaker 6 (59:23):
Again, Like that just speaks to Paul and Luccia and
Jen the and the the like vision that they had
for this show. And like again, like, you know, even
though the show is about Debora Vance and Ava and
their relationship, you know, everyone in the ensemble is extremely important.
And I mean I also like, just in terms of

(59:43):
like what I like to watch, I like to watch
shows about an ensemble.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
I like an ensemble cast.

Speaker 6 (59:50):
I mean, I love like Avid Elementary right now that
my friend Tyler's not, like, you know, I love I
love that kind of quick pace that an ensemble cast
kind of a Forde You don't spend too much time
on one person at you know, like you're jumping around,
You're getting to see different you know, and then that
opens the door too for like individuals to interact that

(01:00:14):
wouldn't necessarily interact, you know, And I think that that's
it's just fun. Like I think that it just keeps
us on our toes too, to be like, what is
Damien doing this episode?

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Who is he with?

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
I also think a good ensemble means that the world
of the show feels real.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
And that's sure.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
That's the thing I think that really does that really
sticks out to me about both of these shows we're
talking about, is they because of the specificity of the
characters and the way they interact and the fact that
none of them are siloed only with certain people, and
that they all co mingle. It does feel like a
really like fully realized, fleshed out world. And I think

(01:00:56):
that's why people love the show so much.

Speaker 6 (01:00:58):
And you can see I think that we were talking
about earlier is like applicable here is that like sometimes
these people suck, you know, like there's no universally good person.
You know, there's no universally virtuous person on hacks, you
know what I mean. We're all kind of fucked up
a little bit. And I think that that again, that's

(01:01:20):
what grounds it in the world, like because they're made
to be human, like the like the I don't know,
the peaks and valleys of the debra of a relationship
for example, that like she loves her even though she's
getting sued, even that you know, like it like the complications,
the con like how confusing human relationships actually are and

(01:01:43):
how complex human relationships actually are.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
That like you know, and and people fuck up a lot.

Speaker 6 (01:01:51):
And I think that like so like human like making
these people human, I think makes the world seem real,
I guess, and.

Speaker 5 (01:01:59):
That's a career illness.

Speaker 4 (01:02:02):
That's something that makes it I think also just fun
to watch retroactively, like we were you know, joking about
how it's problematic now or whatever. But like if we
we say on this show, I mean this is actually
kind of like the whole conceit of like like a
virgin in general, is that like we these like things
that come from the past, like and quote unquote the

(01:02:22):
past two thousand and six. You know they uh, it's
not that like we shouldn't watch them anymore because they're
problem but it's that we need to revisit them and
put them in the context of today. Like that's the
whole thing about It's like if we, as like a
culture decided to categorically like boycott slash girl cott like
anything that they caught they caught, Yeah, yeah, anything that

(01:02:45):
we if we categorically just decided we're not watching this anymore,
like canceled, like we can't watch it. It's like that
is not growth, that's not justice. It's it's about taking it,
bringing it back and then keeping it in its own context.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Yeah, what do we what did we learn here? You know,
what what did we learn here? What can we keep?
And what do we need to change?

Speaker 6 (01:03:05):
You know, like what can we bring what can we
bring into the now and what stays in two thousand
and eight, you know, and that's part of them, And
that's what I would like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
To bring a couple of Betty's outfits into the now specifically.

Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
That's right, honestly, Okay, you were saying we need in
every outfit on Ugly Betty on top Market. I definitely
looked for that handle. It's like the handle has been
kin Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
I don't know who's going to do it. It's surely
not going to be me.

Speaker 4 (01:03:33):
Yeah, I don't know if I have this to do
all of like the wardrobe research, but like it really
would be so good.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
I would be fears right I did.

Speaker 4 (01:03:42):
I recently tweeted about all like a lot of like
Betty's outfits and just how like Pat Fields like create
like really was the beginning was like kind of the
early adopter of like cluttercore, like this kind of Alessandro
Gucci kind of.

Speaker 6 (01:03:57):
I mean that's like literally what it was like no
one was wearing socks and pomps. Yeah, Like no one
was wearing socks and palms.

Speaker 4 (01:04:05):
Now every girls are now It's like in every every
product me collection is socks and kitten heels. Yeah, you know,
I I want to ask, maybe this is like a
as we're like winding down, here cameos on ugly Betty
Oh yeah, my god, just to rattle off a ton

(01:04:25):
like Adele Shakira, Victoria Beckham, Kristin Chena with Martha.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Stewart, Lindsay Lohan, Lindsay, Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
Look, don't forget about Leelo, Kathina Jimi as like the
fairy god orthodontist. Like yes, like literally like the cast.

Speaker 5 (01:04:42):
Of Wicked on Broadway, truly yes.

Speaker 4 (01:04:46):
And let it be said, tim God like Lucy Lou
Like it is just that the taste was there and
it's funny. Like something that I kind of realized as
I was rewatching now was that there's so many people
that I just didn't have in appreciation for when I
watched it as a kid, because I didn't know who
a lot of these people were. I was in a
cultural vacuum. It only retroactively. You're like, oh, like the casting,

(01:05:10):
there's such a taste level in the casting, whether it's
someone like Octavia Spencer Monique has like the funniest like bit, Like.

Speaker 6 (01:05:19):
I mean, it's just crazy like having like someone like
Octavia Spencer, who I remember working with like she was
so sweet, so kind, so good, so fucking and like
and like I just remember I remember when she was
on the show, everyone being like my god like and
and also like people had known her because she'd been
around forever and like but she wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
An Oscar winner.

Speaker 6 (01:05:42):
Yeah, well no, and and I feel like but I
just remember the the energy that she brought, like and there,
like there's a scene where she like is like MASSI
us reaching out and like I like and I remember
I remember that because we were shooting another scene that
and we were there and she like improvised that, you know,

(01:06:03):
like she's like she's I mean, I just remember her
being like so fun to be around and and and
bringing this energy and like and again like just working
with a person where you're like, whoa, they're really good
and like the choices that they make are really smart.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
I mean, I didn't know who Patty Lapone was, no idea.

Speaker 5 (01:06:24):
Yeah, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
And now someday again, the some day came for all
of these people. Who else was there?

Speaker 6 (01:06:33):
I mean there were a lot of designers, a lot
of I remember Victoria back and being very nice. Is
Isaac mus rocky Isaac ms Rockey Zach Posen was on
Area Adriana.

Speaker 4 (01:06:46):
I I feel like I'm honestly okay. The The Octavia
Spencer's last episode one of my favorites, the last reading,
like I remember that from like I've I will constantly
just like say, got a loans to.

Speaker 6 (01:07:01):
Certain things stick out in my mind of like you know,
of things that I maybe saw clips of or was
there for, like little lines, little things that were done.
I remember like when uh, when Judith Light was in
when Claire was in jail and and justin I still

(01:07:21):
have it. I think it's at my parents house. I
have the free Claire shirt. Go wow, somewhere It's like,
what do you.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
Mean somewhere my memory? It should be right there.

Speaker 5 (01:07:31):
In memory it right now.

Speaker 6 (01:07:34):
A box of Ugly Betty stuff at my parents' house.
Like when we when we got canceled, we were all
so upset that we just like went and stole everything.
So everything, honey, so everything, the box of Ugly Betty paraphernalia.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
You and I are going to back channel about that.
I'm gonna be we can buy some of that off
of you. The Octavia Spencer episode something that I just
think it's emblematic of like something that's like so juicy
with every single character came through this show is like
again and I personally am trying to like mandate Ugly
Betty Rewatches, like we as a culture need to have

(01:08:11):
the ugly Betty Rewatch the way maybe I'll watch it for.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
The first time.

Speaker 5 (01:08:15):
Start a podcast, babe, honey, yeah maybe no.

Speaker 4 (01:08:18):
No, no, no no, don't don't start a podcasts. Don't spart,
don't do that, like protect yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
I'll come back on here and talk.

Speaker 4 (01:08:25):
Okay, Yeah, that's what we want. That's what we want
part two. But Octavia does, Like I get the reason
I'm advocating for like rewatches is because there's just so
much juice that you miss, and like with Octavia specifically,
she it's like the most ridiculous character, completely deluded person
who is like kind of evil, kind of whack like
kind of unwell. And the way her, yeah, the way her,

(01:08:49):
the way Ignacio you know, brings her back into reality
and the realization on her face made me physically cry.
In twenty twenty three, I was like so cat debated
by what she does as an actress. Yeah, and everybody
on that show just like knew how to do this
lapstick and they knew how to do the heart well.

Speaker 6 (01:09:08):
I think that that also, Like I think that all
of the guest stars also kind of really quickly like
understood the assignment to like they they got it like
they I And that I think is pretty rare as well,
Like the idea of like these people coming and doing
one episode a little arc of like three, and I
feel like for the most part, every guest star like

(01:09:28):
understood the world that they were walking into, like that
it had to be a little bit irreverent and ridiculous,
but grounding it in the world, like they just really
understood and kind of entered very seamlessly, like Adam Rodriguez
coming in and playing and playing Hilda's man and like
and that whole Like I got to work with Adam
a lot, and like, you know, he's also extremely funny

(01:09:53):
and you know, kind of brought this Bobby character like
to a different place that we weren't really expecting. And
so I think that, you know, it was it was
also great to have guest stars that understood the assignment,
like the actors that came on.

Speaker 4 (01:10:07):
You know who else was that was Kristin Johnson, Oh my.

Speaker 6 (01:10:10):
God, yeah, well, I mean Kristin Johnson and anything is
just like slightly Kristin Johnson, which I love, right, you
know what I mean. It's kind of like she's got
like the Jennifer Coolidge kind of thing going. It's kind
of had that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
Like where it's like she's playing a character, but like
there's still something just her, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:10:28):
New York isn't cool anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
Yeah, New York's not cool anymore. So bored I could die.

Speaker 4 (01:10:33):
Did you have a favorite guest star that you worked
with or cameo appearance that that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
I mean?

Speaker 6 (01:10:39):
Adam Rodriguez was really really fun. I mean because we
got like he came in again, like kind of towards
the end of our run. And it was also in
the it was in the era of like, you know,
Justin's kind of coming out thing, and I just thought
that the Bobby character, like I just thought was so funny,
like the the when he comes in and they're decorating

(01:11:02):
Betty's apartment for the coming out party, and he's like,
this doesn't seem right, Like there's some I can't put
my finger on it, but this doesn't seem right. And
then Michael like Mark comes In is like take this down,
and he's like see. And I thought that that was
also a really again like the subtext of something funny
that is also making a political statement of like this

(01:11:25):
machismo Latin got coming in and being extremely like accepting
and just trying to like become friends with Justin and
trying to understand him and trying to like not even
understand him.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
I think he did understand him.

Speaker 6 (01:11:41):
I think it was more like, hey, I'm an ally
like I'm trying, I'm trying to like support you. And
I think that that also again is like a political
statement and of itself. I think that Justin being conditioned
to like kind of have his guard up, as many
queer people do, especially you know around on like Sis
had men right of like kind of having to have

(01:12:05):
your guard up at all times because you know, rightfully so,
and then having someone that like looks like Adam Rondriguez
with a name like Bobby from New York City that
is just like I won't tell your mom, but like
you got to do something about that, like you have
to like let your family know like where you're at.
Like I just thought that was a really beautiful story

(01:12:25):
and I thought that it was like like a political statement,
but like done in such a funny way, like Bobby
is silly, and.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
It was a complicated story. We're here, we're queer, we suck. Yeah,
that's powerful.

Speaker 4 (01:12:40):
Listen a very relevant ending question. I don't know if
there's tea here. I do feel we were rubbed of
a Gaga cameo, and I feel like I was like
waiting for her to be in there. She's I just
finished season I.

Speaker 5 (01:12:53):
Don't think that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
I don't think the timing was quite right, because it
was it would have been right at the beginning.

Speaker 6 (01:12:59):
Of her romance was out in season three, right, I mean,
I feel like that would have been the time to
get her.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
Was before she was on Gossip Girl. Well, well yeah
she was in season four.

Speaker 4 (01:13:11):
There's this whole arc where Justin is like going to
be on set for like the Gaga photo shoot or whatever,
and I was like, is Gaga coming?

Speaker 6 (01:13:18):
I think they wanted to get her, and I think
that it was just, you know, she was just probably
a scheduling thing or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
I mean, I'm sure that I'm sure that Lady Gaga
watched Ugly Betty Girl.

Speaker 4 (01:13:27):
Yeah, Gaga, Yeah, she she'll be in the reboot.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
I'm sure she well.

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
When we finally have her on the show, we will
make her answer for that, along with all.

Speaker 5 (01:13:36):
Of her other woor crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
Slide into our DMS at Like a Virgin four twenty
sixty nine and tell us if you're starting an ugly
Betty rewatch. Are you a Betty? Are you a Wilhelmina?
Are you an Amanda? And make sure to become a
patroon at patreon dot com. Slash like a Virgin and
get some exclusive bonus content from our conversation with Martina
Della Pato. And next week we will be back with

(01:14:10):
an episode all about Anna Wintour and then met Gala
with mikel.

Speaker 3 (01:14:15):
Street. So that's very exciting.

Speaker 1 (01:14:18):
Make sure to follow us on Instagram Like a Virgin
for twenty sixty nine. I'm your co host rose Dam.
You can find me anywhere online at rose Dam you and.

Speaker 4 (01:14:27):
I'm brand you can find me at France squishkowhere on
the Internet.

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
Like a VIRGINI is an iHeartRadio production. Our producer is
Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman and Nikki Guitour.
Until next week, See you later, Virgin