November 20, 2025 • 31 mins
What if the hardest part about healing wasn’t letting go of them but letting go of who you hoped they’d become?
In this episode, Joshua Rosa breaks down the emotional, psychological, and spiritual journey of healing after a narcissistic relationship one where your hope, loyalty, and love were weaponized against you.
This episode exposes the patterns, explains the psychology, and offers a path forward for those who’ve been gaslit, drained, or made to doubt their own worth.
Because the truth is: they might not ever change. But you can.
In This Episode:
- Why narcissists mimic change to keep control
- The psychology behind why you stayed (and why it’s not weakness)
- What trauma bonding really does to your brain
- The myth of closure and why you’ll never get it from them
- How to rebuild your sense of reality after being gaslit
- The power of “no contact” and emotional detachment
- Healing as withdrawal not failure
- How to trust yourself again after being manipulated
- Turning pain into purpose and rebuilding your identity
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So this episode actually comes by special requests and it's
actually a sadder thing to talk about. Again, I'm no
expert on anything, right, I mean, I'm an expert something
like us. But I feel like there's certain situations, certain
things that we know that we are capable of dealing
with and handling and going through, and sometimes we just
need someone to speak to us. We just need the
advice to the guidance of a person that's outside of
(00:22):
our own mind because we can't escape our own thoughts
or we don't want to believe certain things. And like
I said, you can always reach out to me on
my website made more motivated dot com, which I created
literally a place where people to share stuff. And this
is a common question that I've gotten. It's dealing with narcissists.
And before we dive into this episode, before we do anything,
(00:43):
I first need to dispel that word, because yes, are
there people who are narcissists. Absolutely, that's a clinical term.
You are diagnosed narcissists, But not everyone is a narcissist.
Just because we've become so comfortable using that word doesn't
mean that everyone and it falls under that category. Doesn't
mean that every person that we encounter or deal with
(01:04):
is that. Now, are there people who have these tendencies?
Sure are there people who don't have any regard for
our feelings or emotions. Sure are there people who care
more about themselves than anyone else. Absolutely, But we need
to be very careful in how we unpack certain things.
Why because we give some people too much credit, like
(01:25):
a person who's actually a narcissist, like that they're clinically
diagnosed a narcissist. That's an excuse. I'm not saying it's
a justified excuse. I'm not saying it's that you deserve
to be treated that way you're treated, You should deserve
to go through what you've gone through. I'm saying that
if you are giving them this out, you're saying that
they're this. We're gonna talk about this because there are
(01:45):
some people who are actually narcisists, and there's some people
that are just jerks. This is made for this mountain
with Josh Rosa or we're turning pain into purpose. For
a lot of us, we don't leave situations not because
we don't know that it's bad, but it's because we're
hoping for it to turn good. We keep hoping that
they'll be different. We keep hoping that they'll change. We'll
keep hoping that the one day they'll look at us
(02:07):
and say, man, you know what you are worth making
the effort. And that's what really makes it hard to leave.
That's what makes it so hard to let go of everything,
because you don't want to let go of that thought.
You don't want to believe who they actually are. You
refuse to believe that they're this person because the person
that you have in your mind is so much better
(02:27):
than this and the person you're hoping for, the person
you're dreaming for, the person that you've been engulfed with,
that person is so much better than what they're showing
you they are. But the truth is that for most people,
they can't change. So we have to we have to
stop allowing them to make it seem as if they're good.
And when people who have narcissistic tendencies or people who
(02:48):
are just flat out with jerks, they tend to mimic growth.
And what happens is that when you are about to
leave where you're finally about to step up for yourself
and remove yourself from a situation where you finally see
that it's not worth staying there. They act as if
they're getting better, They act as if they're going to
treat you right, They act as if they're apologetic or remorseful.
They'll put on this show just to make sure that
(03:11):
they still have enough pull on you. And what happens
mentally for us and emotionally inside of us is that
when we see that, we want to believe it because
we don't want to believe that we're wrong. We don't
want to believe that this person that they're showing us
that they are is bad. We don't want to believe
that they're not who we made them out to be.
So it keeps us in this yo yo effect, like
(03:33):
we're ready to go and we're far enough, but they
pull us back the moment they start acting different. I
need you to understand that there is nothing in them
that will change. You'll have moments of this growth, moments
of this happiness with them, and eventually what they'll do
is go back to that person they were. They want
to keep you there. They're going to say the right words,
(03:54):
they're going to do the right thing, and then they're
going to go right back. Statistics show psychological statistics at
least is a social studies show that narcissistic personality traits
are among the most stable over time. True personality change
is rare without intensive, long term therapy. So if we
are talking about a person who is actually narcissistic, right,
(04:16):
because we have people have tendencies, we have people who
are just main people. But a person who's in this
mindset will never change, like unless they really go through
therapy and they're actually going through these things and they
live in this actual choice of change, and even then
they can still revert. But unless they're actually going through
(04:38):
these things, they won't actually change. So what happens is
that for us, if we're remaining in these places, that
we have the ability to walk away. I'm not saying
that it's easy. Again, I'm not disqualifying the amount of
work and effort it takes to finally stand out for
yourself and leave. But I am saying is that if
we keep hope in them changing, we're just lying to ourselves,
Like we keep hoping that they'll be different on this
(05:00):
and what's happening is that they're just doing enough for
you to feel like there is that possibility of change.
So what your emotions, what your brain is telling you
is what you're allowing yourself to be in is that. Well,
maybe there's hope, and hope is good for so many
other things, but hope is not good for persons who's
showing you that they don't want it. We keep falling
(05:22):
for who we invented them to be. We keep coming
back to that. And again this is heartbreaking because it's
such a common conversation. It's like we deal with people
and even in situationships right, and relationships have never happened,
which is a thing now, But we have this this
emotional relationship or emotional connection to a person that we've
(05:43):
never fully created a committed relationship to. So it becomes
so much harder for us to break out of that
because we fell into that same run. We need to
understand that it's not your fault. And I think this
is the hardest part for a lot of people that
they blame themselves. They sit through this and they say, well,
why did I allow myself to be treated that way?
(06:05):
Why did I allow myself to spend all these years
giving effort and trying to be that Why did I
allow myself to not see who they really were? Why
did I allow myself to live in hope. And I
need you to know this that it's not your fault
that you did nothing wrong, that you're not wrong for
wanting something. But you're not wrong for hoping and seeing
(06:25):
some potential in somebody despite the fact that they're not
showing you anything back. You're not wrong for wanting to
love and be loved. That's not wrong. What is wrong
is to continue to stay in a place where they
clearly have shown you but they don't care, or they've
shown you that it doesn't matter to them. Because what's
(06:46):
wrong here again, it's not your wants, is not your desires,
is not your dreams, is the fact that you won't
believe you You won't believe the actual situation or circumstance.
You'll continue to believe their dreams put them so high
on a pedestal that even when they show you that
they're terrible to you and terrible for you, you'll continue to
(07:08):
beg them to do what they should want to do.
We'll talk a little bit more of this after this
quick commercial break. There are situations where people are have
gone through so much heartache and so much pain with
the person they fought so much, there were so much
trauma in that relationship that they've created this attachment to
feeling that issue, to feeling that anger, to feeling that fight.
(07:29):
So what happens is that when you actually move into
anything else, if you move into anything else, you are
looking for the toxicity of that trauma. You're looking to
have this reward cycle that you have these peaks of
arguing and fighting, because this is how your brain works.
Like your brain is, it tells it it's safe to
(07:50):
fight here, it's safe to argue here, this is okay,
this is good. This is giving us some type of
response because it equates fighting and arguing for care. Because
this person has not shown you actual affection or love,
that you take their anger as affection. There's a saying, right,
there's a thin line between love and hate. That's actually
a real thing in your brain. The same parts of
(08:13):
your brain that are activated when you're in love are
also very similar to the parts of your brain that
are activated when you're angry or hate because they're so
close in line with each other. But what's happening is
that we condition our brain to think this is okay,
this is normal. So you need a detox, You need
to be able to take this out of your body.
(08:34):
It reinforces this part of us. This is why people
don't heal's. There's so many reasons. I mean, we're talking
about them now, right, but we're talking about emotional. We'll
talking about the spiritual, we'll talk about the relational connections
that we have, but first of all, the physical, like
the literal physical like studies again show us that our need,
our connection to people can physical. Emotional connection can actually
(09:00):
called physical pain. Like you will feel hurt, physical hurt.
You can feel soreness sometimes because of this relationship, because
you need to detach from this particular thing. It's not
that you're weak, it's just that you've reinforced something. So
when we talk about this this physical component being able
to disconnect completely, I know this is hard, and I
(09:21):
know this is a tough one, but that that that
whole uh it's also became a trend, that whole uh
no no contact thing, right that that just completely cut
them out and don't respond, don't message, block all those things,
which is very, very hard for the first couple of weeks,
even maybe months for some people. But there is power
(09:42):
behind that because now what we're doing is that we're
reconditioning our brain. We're changing the cycle of how we
how we see things or how we respond. There are
things that we were used to doing. We create this
new dichotomy with that where ourselves with the power struggle
that we had before. You have to literally reconditioned your thoughts,
recondition your mind, and know that it's okay to let
(10:04):
go hold these things. So just diving into those conversations
that I've had with people, and I don't want to
assume and presume that everyone has the same situation or
the same mindset. So I'm gonna's gonna be very blanket
over the top and hopefully you find where you fit
in that blanket. If this relates to you whatever, Maybe
it doesn't, But honestly, this is really to everybody because
(10:25):
it's not just romantic relationships. This happens with like friendships.
Botanical relationships just happens with family members. There is a
balance even between families that it seems narcissistic. There's actually
a word that I learned recently on social media when
I talked about narcissistic relationships and how they look and
(10:46):
how when you're dating a person who is in this
time mindset. Again, narcissistic is actual clinical terms, and not
everyone fits in this blanket, but maybe people have terms
of townenities that they fit into this. But that when
you are first dating them, in the first couple of
days and weeks, they do something called love bombing, where
they oversaturate you with emotions and love and tell you
all these things and all these pretty things. And what
(11:07):
it turns out to be is that this is an
influx in your brain. It's actually out of the book
of narcissists, where you are oversaturated with what you think
is love. So your body now becomes used to It's like, wow,
that's amazing. And then what they quickly do is that
they pull the carpet. A couple of days after that
they completely shut you out from this and it creates
(11:27):
now this dependency on them. You're dependent on their emails
or their text messages or their comments or their DMS
or the A're dependent so much on them that your
brain causes you to almost have like withdrawals. There's a
word or term called slow burn that real love is patient.
It takes time, it develops, it grows, It's not perfect,
(11:49):
but it is present and persistent and too many of
us are rushing into that love bomb that we're losing
sight of what's good. This is a tool that they
use to keep you there. This is why when we
dive into situationships or we have those issues, it's so
easy to get wrapped up in them because they've over
(12:10):
and dated you with fake love. And it's impossible for
us to fully know someone without actually spending time with them,
without actually allowing ourselves to grow in that so without
actually allowing this life of ours with them to not
(12:31):
just be imaginatory, but to be real. So when we
go through this, and again this is everyone, friendships or
friendships that we have spiral out and we see how
present they are to us and how much they love
us and how often they call us and all these
important things that good friendships do, and then I don't
know where they just disappear. Now again, there's different. There's
(12:51):
obviously a staunch difference there because that's not a romantic partner.
They don't owe you a daily conversation. They don't owe
you in a type of relationship in that terms. But
there is this reality where any healthy relationships requires conversation,
It requires you to be present to them. So for
us to allow ourselves to just be fully loved in that,
(13:12):
to be fully present to that. We need to be
able to put people in the positions that they've put themselves, like,
allow people to be where they want to be. They've
made it clear that they're only momentarily with us. Cool,
you don't have to be momentarily with them either. You
don't have to give them that attention where they have to.
But if you're so desire those friendships that are have gaps, right, don't.
(13:34):
Maintenance relationships aren't bad things, but you have to allow
people to be in the places that they desire to be,
not where you want them to be. Be clear about this,
because we could want people to be with us every
single day, but where do they desire to be. It's
not enough for them to just be with us when
we want them, and when we be we're able to
(13:58):
unpack those things. We're able to really impact where people
stand with us because if we're mutual, right, if we
both understand now, no, let's be clear, because you could
also be the toxic one here. You could be the
one that's over pushing where people should be because understand,
you can't force people to be different in your life,
they will be where they need to be, and you
have to learn to adapt and accept or project that premise.
(14:22):
You have to learn to be okay with that or again,
rejection is perfectly fine. If you're not okay with it,
be very clear, that's fine. You could be there, but
I'm not going to be here either in any relationship, romantic,
for friendship, family members. But we need to be able
to also understand are we the ones that are in
the wrong. And that's the whole thing in itself. So
looking at this, this reality that you're not wrong for
(14:48):
wanting these things. You're not wrong for wanting to be
loved and to be cared for. You're not wrong for
just having a desire in your heart. What we do
next is what defines where the we're wrong or not.
Whether we continue to be in something that we know
that's clearly not for us, or we wake up and
just accept the truth. This is what changes everything. There
(15:12):
is this unneeded thought that's happening very common in our
culture too. Closure is a lie. Like closure does not
need to be a part of the relationship or the
breakup or the end. It doesn't need to be a
part of the wife because most of us are not
looking for closure. We're not looking for them to tell
(15:34):
us what's wrong. We just want them to kind of
turn back. We want them to look at the situation
and say, you know what, I'm sorry, I was wrong.
We're looking at them for them to come back into
our lives. We're not looking for actual closure. You don't
need closure. You don't need somebody to tell you that
they were wrong. Let them be wrong on their wrong.
You don't need for them to apologize to you, because
at the end of the day that apology won't mean anything.
(15:55):
You don't need for them to come back into your life.
Closure is this myth that if we tell them what
they did wrong, that they'll sit there and realize it
and come back, or that we'll be able to win.
We'll be able to make them feel bad for treating
(16:15):
us the way they treated us, because they shouldn't have
treated us that way. You don't need them to validate
your emotions like you don't need them to tell you
that it's okay to feel bad. You don't need them
to know that they were wrong. They know they're wrong,
whether they admit it or not, whether they're narcissistic or not.
They're wrong, and that's okay. And this is going to
(16:38):
pursue me to assume me that you were not in
the wrong in this situation. But you don't need to
go back to closure when you are already told the truth. Now,
I do want to be clear because there are instances
where we are the wrong. One Like I had a
conversation with someone and this person she will label every
(17:01):
access she dated as a narcissist, like every acts, like
every single access they had, they would label them as
a narcissist. And this just makes me think, it just
jogs in my mind, every single one of them. First
of all, let's just take away the fact that narcissistic again,
a real narcissist is a clinical term, right, like actually
actually diagnosed. Right, We'll ignore that just for this instance.
(17:24):
But every single one of them, like every actually you've
ever dated, is a narcissist. That is not one of
them is just a bad person or not one of
them is just not compatible with you. Why is it
that every person that you've dated is a narcissist this,
and why is it that you're the only one that's
silver lining there's all's so the connecting factor here there's
one of two things. One either you have extremely bad
(17:45):
taste like you are attracted to toxicity, to instability, you're
attracted to mental disorders because that's what it is. Or
it's easier to label everyone else as a problem because
you will don't take account of bils for yourself. I
think that the healthiest thing we will ever do in
any situation every relationship is be able to take accountability
(18:08):
for the things that we did, because it's impossible that
everyone was good. It's impossible for a relationship to fall
apart without everyone having some part of it. Now, what
I mean by that again, I don't mean that you
were evil and correct things. What I mean by that
is that there is a part of that relationship that
(18:31):
we have to take on because there is a relationship
to two people, right, it's not one person carrying all
the weight. And you might have done might have gone
the most and never done everything. You could have done
it and gave it a little bit of effort, but there
has to be something there where you didn't contribute in
your portion. And some people would say, well, I did everything,
I did all these things, and I showed up and
(18:53):
I was this, and I was that, and it's very
very possible, very true that it is a possibility that
a person just was just tired of it and want
to be in the relationship, or or has avoiding attachment
personalities or all these things. It's very very possible. But
the reality is that most cases, for most people, it's
not like that. We have to be able to look
at our flaws in that relationship. Why do I say this,
(19:15):
Why am I saying you have to look at that?
Because this is what you carry on to the next one.
Like if you know that you could have I don't know,
communicated better, that you could have called more, that you
could have shown up more, that you could have sat
with them and understood their problems a little more instead
of just telling them all of yours than in this situation,
that's what you pick up and grow with. But I
(19:36):
want to be clear, you don't go back to it,
especially if there is no need or no chance of
it being healed or recovered, because a lot of people
want to heal the relationship when it's too late, and
in some instances that's just the case. You can only
take something with you and not go back to it.
So I mentioned that in that head press because if
(19:59):
we I think that every person that we've dated or
been around with as a narcissist, and again, this is
like a personal check, check it, check your own heart.
Is that true? Or am I just trying to use
that as a scapegoat? Am I running away from something
by labeling them as bad and not labeling me as
needing to grow? Not everyone is a narcissist, Not everyone
(20:23):
is actually even clinical claim that. But the only thing
that we'll ever be able to change is not them
as ourselves. And this mountain of dealing with these people
can only come to our good when we know what
part we played it. And we'll talk about the rest
of this after this real quick commercial break. There's a phrase.
It's called emotional purgatory. And this is what I meant
(20:45):
when I said, you're waiting for them to admit that
they're wrong, like you're waiting for them to let you
off the hook from how you feel or what you
want to know, because you're waiting for them to take accountability.
The problem is that people who are wrong rarely ever
take accountability, Like people who are not good to you
(21:07):
rarely ever will sit back and say, man, you're right,
I'm sorry. Good people will Good people who are remorseful
for how they feel and know that they could have
done something better or change something. They'll look at you
and say, listen, I'm sorry, I am sorry I treated
you this, but I'm sorry I went through this. Even
if it's not to reclaim you or to come back
(21:27):
to you. Those people will takeccountability. But more often than not,
we're looking for a person that is not accountable to
become accountable. This emotional purgatory, this limbo of just being
stuck in something waiting for someone to be something they're not,
is going to kill you emotionally. It's going to drive
(21:48):
you to a point where you want nothing else but
that thing to change. And I need to understand that
you don't need validation from their story, like you don't
need your version of the story to match up with theirs.
It's okay for you to see this thing completely different
than they do. It's okay for you to completely detach
from them. But at some point, if we don't actually
(22:14):
make any moves, will continue to wait for them to
be different. So one thing that often happens when we're
dealing with these people, we're dealing with people that we
need to get away from. We deally with need people
that we need to change ourselves from is that they're very,
very very good at distorting what seems real. Like that again,
(22:39):
another phrase that's thrown around so loosely. It's gaslighting, but
it's true, it is a real phrase. It does happen.
I do think that not everything is gaslighting. Some people
don't want to accountable for themselves and they say you're gaslighting.
We know you were just doing poor things and picking
poor decisions. We need to be able to distinguish between
what's real and what's not. And people who are do
(23:00):
fit this bill fit this type of thing will gaslight
you into thinking that your emotions are wrong or invalid
just because you have them. They're not wrong or invalid.
And being able to really distinguish and look at this,
is is this real? Or am I just not being accountable?
Because that's a difference. Right, You should be accountable for
how you act in what you do, but you should
you should not take on things that are not yours
to take. You should not have to sit here and
(23:22):
feel like you're the worst person ever because somebody just
made you feel bad. It's okay to call them out
on their nonsense. It's okay to not need to respond
to what they're saying about you're trying to make you
feel just because they want to win. But be clear
(23:43):
that you are accountable for anything you have done, but
then not take on the weight of what they've said
to you, especially in the situation where you're fighting with somebody.
There is rarely a situation where you're fighting with somebody
where they're going to say things that are valid. Typically
it's just to hurt you, typically just to get under
your skin, typically to make you feel bad. And that's
(24:05):
where we need to cut the line. That's where we
need to just make sure that we're not attached to
these people at all and not attached to their words
at all, and not allow them to continue to pull
us there. They will try to invalidate your emotions because
by invalidating your emotions, they validate their actions. They will
try to make you feel like you are crazy, because
by making you feel like you're crazy, they will make
(24:27):
themselves feel like they're better. They're gaslighting you into these things,
and again not using that word loosely, not throwing it around.
Accountability is important, but there are people that will make
you feel as if what you're feeling and saying is wrong,
just because they want to win, just because they would
rather be little you than step up to anything else.
They would rather make you feel like your garbage and
nothing than it is to actually be good. We need
(24:52):
to learn that these people don't actually have value in
our lives, that their words should not change where we are.
But if we can take you to go back to
that and say, well, how you make me feel, or
what you are, what you do, that's who I want
to be around, you'll continue to give into this cycle
that will continue to hurt you and efforts to keep them.
(25:15):
There's no one in this world. Life is way too short.
There's no one in this world that is worth hurting
yourself so that they will stay. No one that loves you,
genuinely loves you, wants to see you hurt. The only
ones that want to see you hurt are the people
that take advantage of you. So I mentioned before this
no contact thing, and this is hard, but it's probably
(25:41):
the most powerful thing you ever do. No contact is
not punishment, it's protection. It's keeping yourself enough at a
distance that you allow yourself the freedom to not revert
to things. And this is hard because again it's so
easy with the world that we live and we're so connected.
There's so many ways and avenues and memories and things
that flush and flourish back. But as these memories come,
(26:06):
as these thoughts and processes come through, I want you
to just sit back and just think about the person.
Did they treat you right? Do they make you feel
loved and cared for? Do you actually feel valued and seen?
Or are you just connected to something of a moment
and I'm not talking about like it overall and just
(26:29):
like you're connected to a moment of happiness. We tend
to do this. We tend to bear when when we're
trying to convince ourselves otherwise right, when we're not actually
doing the right thing for ourselves. We tend to convince
ourselves that they were not always bad. And your brain,
your memory sucks, like your memory doesn't actually remember the
fullness of things. It remembers the memory of a memory.
So we'll highlight, especially when we're trying to block these emotions,
(26:52):
will highlight the good moments and will make those things magnified,
and that overshadows so much more. To just think about
it this way, We'll say, in this very simple way,
is it good for a person to be good to
you four times but bad toe you forty? Like? Is
it good that they were good here and there and
they made you feel happy here and there, and they
(27:14):
said all the right things all the way through, but
they made you feel terrible in all these other situations.
They made you feel less valued, or less seen or
less loved. But you know what, they were really good
in those few moments. I think when we remember that,
when we use that, that becomes fuel, it becomes a catalyst.
(27:34):
And I'm not saying it's healthy. I'm never one for
affirming this kind of thought pattern, right, and it's negative
affirmation for this thing, but or negative reinforcement or other.
But sometimes when we're there steep, we need those things.
(27:54):
We need to know that we're not giving these people
access anymore. But they don't have power over us because
we're not responding, we're not connecting, we're not engaging. We're
letting this toxic thing die. The only way you heal
is by getting out of the toxic pond. Like if
(28:15):
you the only way you're gonna drive from this this puddle,
this pond is by getting out of it, and if
you keep going back into it, you will never dry.
You'll drive more less and less and less each time
because you're more used to it, and going back quicker
and healing. I'm not saying it's quick, because healing isn't linear.
There are days that you're going to feel like none
of that even mattered. You think, how we're so dumb?
How did I fall into it? But there will be
(28:35):
days where you are to really depressed or serials, really
sad or missing it. Why, Because it's not linear, It
doesn't just all magically go away. Time is really the
only friend you have. And eventually it doesn't go away,
but it becomes less and it becomes less potent, and
your desire to speak to them lesson, you desire to
reach out, lesson, you desire to put yourself through it
(28:57):
less and you heal from that. And maybe for some situations,
the longevity that you were in it hurts, so it
takes more time for you to heal. But this is
the reality, this is the truth that we have to
deal with that the only way we heal is by
(29:20):
not going back into the thing that killed us. So
by not going back into the pond of the thing
that hurt us. You need to heal because you deserve
to heal, and you deserve to trust you Again, the
biggest things that we fail with is that we turn
our own trust and our own judgment and we begin
(29:46):
to lack in that, we begin to criticize what we
do when we believe because that we've allowed ourselves to
be in these situations. It's okay to go do these
things and know that you're a human, that you're desiring
goodness and love and peace, and you gave it to
the wrong person. But that doesn't diminish your power, doesn't
diminish who you are. So as we talk about just
(30:06):
changing from those people, walking away from them, we need
to realize that they won't change, but we can change.
We can change where we are, we can change our perspective,
we can change the relationship. We can change them by
moving them. So thank you for being on this episode.
(30:27):
And I really hope that this is a fruitful one
for those of a struggling in this because I know
it's a hard one. I know it's something that a
lot of people have to unpack because we've been hurt
and we've been wounded, and again, not everyone's literally a
clinically diagnosed narcissists. But we'll take it from our popular
societal understanding. And if this episode was good for you,
(30:50):
I just ask you know, typical stuff, if you could
share it and you could give it five stars or
download it. Please download the episodes. That's actually the metric
that's measured the most sharing that in there. Thank you
for being here, thinking for present, and we'll catch you
on the next one.
So this episode actually comes by special requests and it's
actually a sadder thing to talk about. Again, I'm no
expert on anything, right, I mean, I'm an expert something
like us. But I feel like there's certain situations, certain
things that we know that we are capable of dealing
with and handling and going through, and sometimes we just
need someone to speak to us. We just need the
advice to the guidance of a person that's outside of
(00:22):
our own mind because we can't escape our own thoughts
or we don't want to believe certain things. And like
I said, you can always reach out to me on
my website made more motivated dot com, which I created
literally a place where people to share stuff. And this
is a common question that I've gotten. It's dealing with narcissists.
And before we dive into this episode, before we do anything,
(00:43):
I first need to dispel that word, because yes, are
there people who are narcissists. Absolutely, that's a clinical term.
You are diagnosed narcissists, But not everyone is a narcissist.
Just because we've become so comfortable using that word doesn't
mean that everyone and it falls under that category. Doesn't
mean that every person that we encounter or deal with
(01:04):
is that. Now, are there people who have these tendencies?
Sure are there people who don't have any regard for
our feelings or emotions. Sure are there people who care
more about themselves than anyone else. Absolutely, But we need
to be very careful in how we unpack certain things.
Why because we give some people too much credit, like
(01:25):
a person who's actually a narcissist, like that they're clinically
diagnosed a narcissist. That's an excuse. I'm not saying it's
a justified excuse. I'm not saying it's that you deserve
to be treated that way you're treated, You should deserve
to go through what you've gone through. I'm saying that
if you are giving them this out, you're saying that
they're this. We're gonna talk about this because there are
(01:45):
some people who are actually narcisists, and there's some people
that are just jerks. This is made for this mountain
with Josh Rosa or we're turning pain into purpose. For
a lot of us, we don't leave situations not because
we don't know that it's bad, but it's because we're
hoping for it to turn good. We keep hoping that
they'll be different. We keep hoping that they'll change. We'll
keep hoping that the one day they'll look at us
(02:07):
and say, man, you know what you are worth making
the effort. And that's what really makes it hard to leave.
That's what makes it so hard to let go of everything,
because you don't want to let go of that thought.
You don't want to believe who they actually are. You
refuse to believe that they're this person because the person
that you have in your mind is so much better
(02:27):
than this and the person you're hoping for, the person
you're dreaming for, the person that you've been engulfed with,
that person is so much better than what they're showing
you they are. But the truth is that for most people,
they can't change. So we have to we have to
stop allowing them to make it seem as if they're good.
And when people who have narcissistic tendencies or people who
(02:48):
are just flat out with jerks, they tend to mimic growth.
And what happens is that when you are about to
leave where you're finally about to step up for yourself
and remove yourself from a situation where you finally see
that it's not worth staying there. They act as if
they're getting better, They act as if they're going to
treat you right, They act as if they're apologetic or remorseful.
They'll put on this show just to make sure that
(03:11):
they still have enough pull on you. And what happens
mentally for us and emotionally inside of us is that
when we see that, we want to believe it because
we don't want to believe that we're wrong. We don't
want to believe that this person that they're showing us
that they are is bad. We don't want to believe
that they're not who we made them out to be.
So it keeps us in this yo yo effect, like
(03:33):
we're ready to go and we're far enough, but they
pull us back the moment they start acting different. I
need you to understand that there is nothing in them
that will change. You'll have moments of this growth, moments
of this happiness with them, and eventually what they'll do
is go back to that person they were. They want
to keep you there. They're going to say the right words,
(03:54):
they're going to do the right thing, and then they're
going to go right back. Statistics show psychological statistics at
least is a social studies show that narcissistic personality traits
are among the most stable over time. True personality change
is rare without intensive, long term therapy. So if we
are talking about a person who is actually narcissistic, right,
(04:16):
because we have people have tendencies, we have people who
are just main people. But a person who's in this
mindset will never change, like unless they really go through
therapy and they're actually going through these things and they
live in this actual choice of change, and even then
they can still revert. But unless they're actually going through
(04:38):
these things, they won't actually change. So what happens is
that for us, if we're remaining in these places, that
we have the ability to walk away. I'm not saying
that it's easy. Again, I'm not disqualifying the amount of
work and effort it takes to finally stand out for
yourself and leave. But I am saying is that if
we keep hope in them changing, we're just lying to ourselves,
Like we keep hoping that they'll be different on this
(05:00):
and what's happening is that they're just doing enough for
you to feel like there is that possibility of change.
So what your emotions, what your brain is telling you
is what you're allowing yourself to be in is that. Well,
maybe there's hope, and hope is good for so many
other things, but hope is not good for persons who's
showing you that they don't want it. We keep falling
(05:22):
for who we invented them to be. We keep coming
back to that. And again this is heartbreaking because it's
such a common conversation. It's like we deal with people
and even in situationships right, and relationships have never happened,
which is a thing now, But we have this this
emotional relationship or emotional connection to a person that we've
(05:43):
never fully created a committed relationship to. So it becomes
so much harder for us to break out of that
because we fell into that same run. We need to
understand that it's not your fault. And I think this
is the hardest part for a lot of people that
they blame themselves. They sit through this and they say, well,
why did I allow myself to be treated that way?
(06:05):
Why did I allow myself to spend all these years
giving effort and trying to be that Why did I
allow myself to not see who they really were? Why
did I allow myself to live in hope. And I
need you to know this that it's not your fault
that you did nothing wrong, that you're not wrong for
wanting something. But you're not wrong for hoping and seeing
(06:25):
some potential in somebody despite the fact that they're not
showing you anything back. You're not wrong for wanting to
love and be loved. That's not wrong. What is wrong
is to continue to stay in a place where they
clearly have shown you but they don't care, or they've
shown you that it doesn't matter to them. Because what's
(06:46):
wrong here again, it's not your wants, is not your desires,
is not your dreams, is the fact that you won't
believe you You won't believe the actual situation or circumstance.
You'll continue to believe their dreams put them so high
on a pedestal that even when they show you that
they're terrible to you and terrible for you, you'll continue to
(07:08):
beg them to do what they should want to do.
We'll talk a little bit more of this after this
quick commercial break. There are situations where people are have
gone through so much heartache and so much pain with
the person they fought so much, there were so much
trauma in that relationship that they've created this attachment to
feeling that issue, to feeling that anger, to feeling that fight.
(07:29):
So what happens is that when you actually move into
anything else, if you move into anything else, you are
looking for the toxicity of that trauma. You're looking to
have this reward cycle that you have these peaks of
arguing and fighting, because this is how your brain works.
Like your brain is, it tells it it's safe to
(07:50):
fight here, it's safe to argue here, this is okay,
this is good. This is giving us some type of
response because it equates fighting and arguing for care. Because
this person has not shown you actual affection or love,
that you take their anger as affection. There's a saying, right,
there's a thin line between love and hate. That's actually
a real thing in your brain. The same parts of
(08:13):
your brain that are activated when you're in love are
also very similar to the parts of your brain that
are activated when you're angry or hate because they're so
close in line with each other. But what's happening is
that we condition our brain to think this is okay,
this is normal. So you need a detox, You need
to be able to take this out of your body.
(08:34):
It reinforces this part of us. This is why people
don't heal's. There's so many reasons. I mean, we're talking
about them now, right, but we're talking about emotional. We'll
talking about the spiritual, we'll talk about the relational connections
that we have, but first of all, the physical, like
the literal physical like studies again show us that our need,
our connection to people can physical. Emotional connection can actually
(09:00):
called physical pain. Like you will feel hurt, physical hurt.
You can feel soreness sometimes because of this relationship, because
you need to detach from this particular thing. It's not
that you're weak, it's just that you've reinforced something. So
when we talk about this this physical component being able
to disconnect completely, I know this is hard, and I
(09:21):
know this is a tough one, but that that that
whole uh it's also became a trend, that whole uh
no no contact thing, right that that just completely cut
them out and don't respond, don't message, block all those things,
which is very, very hard for the first couple of weeks,
even maybe months for some people. But there is power
(09:42):
behind that because now what we're doing is that we're
reconditioning our brain. We're changing the cycle of how we
how we see things or how we respond. There are
things that we were used to doing. We create this
new dichotomy with that where ourselves with the power struggle
that we had before. You have to literally reconditioned your thoughts,
recondition your mind, and know that it's okay to let
(10:04):
go hold these things. So just diving into those conversations
that I've had with people, and I don't want to
assume and presume that everyone has the same situation or
the same mindset. So I'm gonna's gonna be very blanket
over the top and hopefully you find where you fit
in that blanket. If this relates to you whatever, Maybe
it doesn't, But honestly, this is really to everybody because
(10:25):
it's not just romantic relationships. This happens with like friendships.
Botanical relationships just happens with family members. There is a
balance even between families that it seems narcissistic. There's actually
a word that I learned recently on social media when
I talked about narcissistic relationships and how they look and
(10:46):
how when you're dating a person who is in this
time mindset. Again, narcissistic is actual clinical terms, and not
everyone fits in this blanket, but maybe people have terms
of townenities that they fit into this. But that when
you are first dating them, in the first couple of
days and weeks, they do something called love bombing, where
they oversaturate you with emotions and love and tell you
all these things and all these pretty things. And what
(11:07):
it turns out to be is that this is an
influx in your brain. It's actually out of the book
of narcissists, where you are oversaturated with what you think
is love. So your body now becomes used to It's like, wow,
that's amazing. And then what they quickly do is that
they pull the carpet. A couple of days after that
they completely shut you out from this and it creates
(11:27):
now this dependency on them. You're dependent on their emails
or their text messages or their comments or their DMS
or the A're dependent so much on them that your
brain causes you to almost have like withdrawals. There's a
word or term called slow burn that real love is patient.
It takes time, it develops, it grows, It's not perfect,
(11:49):
but it is present and persistent and too many of
us are rushing into that love bomb that we're losing
sight of what's good. This is a tool that they
use to keep you there. This is why when we
dive into situationships or we have those issues, it's so
easy to get wrapped up in them because they've over
(12:10):
and dated you with fake love. And it's impossible for
us to fully know someone without actually spending time with them,
without actually allowing ourselves to grow in that so without
actually allowing this life of ours with them to not
(12:31):
just be imaginatory, but to be real. So when we
go through this, and again this is everyone, friendships or
friendships that we have spiral out and we see how
present they are to us and how much they love
us and how often they call us and all these
important things that good friendships do, and then I don't
know where they just disappear. Now again, there's different. There's
(12:51):
obviously a staunch difference there because that's not a romantic partner.
They don't owe you a daily conversation. They don't owe
you in a type of relationship in that terms. But
there is this reality where any healthy relationships requires conversation,
It requires you to be present to them. So for
us to allow ourselves to just be fully loved in that,
(13:12):
to be fully present to that. We need to be
able to put people in the positions that they've put themselves, like,
allow people to be where they want to be. They've
made it clear that they're only momentarily with us. Cool,
you don't have to be momentarily with them either. You
don't have to give them that attention where they have to.
But if you're so desire those friendships that are have gaps, right, don't.
(13:34):
Maintenance relationships aren't bad things, but you have to allow
people to be in the places that they desire to be,
not where you want them to be. Be clear about this,
because we could want people to be with us every
single day, but where do they desire to be. It's
not enough for them to just be with us when
we want them, and when we be we're able to
(13:58):
unpack those things. We're able to really impact where people
stand with us because if we're mutual, right, if we
both understand now, no, let's be clear, because you could
also be the toxic one here. You could be the
one that's over pushing where people should be because understand,
you can't force people to be different in your life,
they will be where they need to be, and you
have to learn to adapt and accept or project that premise.
(14:22):
You have to learn to be okay with that or again,
rejection is perfectly fine. If you're not okay with it,
be very clear, that's fine. You could be there, but
I'm not going to be here either in any relationship, romantic,
for friendship, family members. But we need to be able
to also understand are we the ones that are in
the wrong. And that's the whole thing in itself. So
looking at this, this reality that you're not wrong for
(14:48):
wanting these things. You're not wrong for wanting to be
loved and to be cared for. You're not wrong for
just having a desire in your heart. What we do
next is what defines where the we're wrong or not.
Whether we continue to be in something that we know
that's clearly not for us, or we wake up and
just accept the truth. This is what changes everything. There
(15:12):
is this unneeded thought that's happening very common in our
culture too. Closure is a lie. Like closure does not
need to be a part of the relationship or the
breakup or the end. It doesn't need to be a
part of the wife because most of us are not
looking for closure. We're not looking for them to tell
(15:34):
us what's wrong. We just want them to kind of
turn back. We want them to look at the situation
and say, you know what, I'm sorry, I was wrong.
We're looking at them for them to come back into
our lives. We're not looking for actual closure. You don't
need closure. You don't need somebody to tell you that
they were wrong. Let them be wrong on their wrong.
You don't need for them to apologize to you, because
at the end of the day that apology won't mean anything.
(15:55):
You don't need for them to come back into your life.
Closure is this myth that if we tell them what
they did wrong, that they'll sit there and realize it
and come back, or that we'll be able to win.
We'll be able to make them feel bad for treating
(16:15):
us the way they treated us, because they shouldn't have
treated us that way. You don't need them to validate
your emotions like you don't need them to tell you
that it's okay to feel bad. You don't need them
to know that they were wrong. They know they're wrong,
whether they admit it or not, whether they're narcissistic or not.
They're wrong, and that's okay. And this is going to
(16:38):
pursue me to assume me that you were not in
the wrong in this situation. But you don't need to
go back to closure when you are already told the truth. Now,
I do want to be clear because there are instances
where we are the wrong. One Like I had a
conversation with someone and this person she will label every
(17:01):
access she dated as a narcissist, like every acts, like
every single access they had, they would label them as
a narcissist. And this just makes me think, it just
jogs in my mind, every single one of them. First
of all, let's just take away the fact that narcissistic again,
a real narcissist is a clinical term, right, like actually
actually diagnosed. Right, We'll ignore that just for this instance.
(17:24):
But every single one of them, like every actually you've
ever dated, is a narcissist. That is not one of
them is just a bad person or not one of
them is just not compatible with you. Why is it
that every person that you've dated is a narcissist this,
and why is it that you're the only one that's
silver lining there's all's so the connecting factor here there's
one of two things. One either you have extremely bad
(17:45):
taste like you are attracted to toxicity, to instability, you're
attracted to mental disorders because that's what it is. Or
it's easier to label everyone else as a problem because
you will don't take account of bils for yourself. I
think that the healthiest thing we will ever do in
any situation every relationship is be able to take accountability
(18:08):
for the things that we did, because it's impossible that
everyone was good. It's impossible for a relationship to fall
apart without everyone having some part of it. Now, what
I mean by that again, I don't mean that you
were evil and correct things. What I mean by that
is that there is a part of that relationship that
(18:31):
we have to take on because there is a relationship
to two people, right, it's not one person carrying all
the weight. And you might have done might have gone
the most and never done everything. You could have done
it and gave it a little bit of effort, but there
has to be something there where you didn't contribute in
your portion. And some people would say, well, I did everything,
I did all these things, and I showed up and
(18:53):
I was this, and I was that, and it's very
very possible, very true that it is a possibility that
a person just was just tired of it and want
to be in the relationship, or or has avoiding attachment
personalities or all these things. It's very very possible. But
the reality is that most cases, for most people, it's
not like that. We have to be able to look
at our flaws in that relationship. Why do I say this,
(19:15):
Why am I saying you have to look at that?
Because this is what you carry on to the next one.
Like if you know that you could have I don't know,
communicated better, that you could have called more, that you
could have shown up more, that you could have sat
with them and understood their problems a little more instead
of just telling them all of yours than in this situation,
that's what you pick up and grow with. But I
(19:36):
want to be clear, you don't go back to it,
especially if there is no need or no chance of
it being healed or recovered, because a lot of people
want to heal the relationship when it's too late, and
in some instances that's just the case. You can only
take something with you and not go back to it.
So I mentioned that in that head press because if
(19:59):
we I think that every person that we've dated or
been around with as a narcissist, and again, this is
like a personal check, check it, check your own heart.
Is that true? Or am I just trying to use
that as a scapegoat? Am I running away from something
by labeling them as bad and not labeling me as
needing to grow? Not everyone is a narcissist, Not everyone
(20:23):
is actually even clinical claim that. But the only thing
that we'll ever be able to change is not them
as ourselves. And this mountain of dealing with these people
can only come to our good when we know what
part we played it. And we'll talk about the rest
of this after this real quick commercial break. There's a phrase.
It's called emotional purgatory. And this is what I meant
(20:45):
when I said, you're waiting for them to admit that
they're wrong, like you're waiting for them to let you
off the hook from how you feel or what you
want to know, because you're waiting for them to take accountability.
The problem is that people who are wrong rarely ever
take accountability, Like people who are not good to you
(21:07):
rarely ever will sit back and say, man, you're right,
I'm sorry. Good people will Good people who are remorseful
for how they feel and know that they could have
done something better or change something. They'll look at you
and say, listen, I'm sorry, I am sorry I treated
you this, but I'm sorry I went through this. Even
if it's not to reclaim you or to come back
(21:27):
to you. Those people will takeccountability. But more often than not,
we're looking for a person that is not accountable to
become accountable. This emotional purgatory, this limbo of just being
stuck in something waiting for someone to be something they're not,
is going to kill you emotionally. It's going to drive
(21:48):
you to a point where you want nothing else but
that thing to change. And I need to understand that
you don't need validation from their story, like you don't
need your version of the story to match up with theirs.
It's okay for you to see this thing completely different
than they do. It's okay for you to completely detach
from them. But at some point, if we don't actually
(22:14):
make any moves, will continue to wait for them to
be different. So one thing that often happens when we're
dealing with these people, we're dealing with people that we
need to get away from. We deally with need people
that we need to change ourselves from is that they're very,
very very good at distorting what seems real. Like that again,
(22:39):
another phrase that's thrown around so loosely. It's gaslighting, but
it's true, it is a real phrase. It does happen.
I do think that not everything is gaslighting. Some people
don't want to accountable for themselves and they say you're gaslighting.
We know you were just doing poor things and picking
poor decisions. We need to be able to distinguish between
what's real and what's not. And people who are do
(23:00):
fit this bill fit this type of thing will gaslight
you into thinking that your emotions are wrong or invalid
just because you have them. They're not wrong or invalid.
And being able to really distinguish and look at this,
is is this real? Or am I just not being accountable?
Because that's a difference. Right, You should be accountable for
how you act in what you do, but you should
you should not take on things that are not yours
to take. You should not have to sit here and
(23:22):
feel like you're the worst person ever because somebody just
made you feel bad. It's okay to call them out
on their nonsense. It's okay to not need to respond
to what they're saying about you're trying to make you
feel just because they want to win. But be clear
(23:43):
that you are accountable for anything you have done, but
then not take on the weight of what they've said
to you, especially in the situation where you're fighting with somebody.
There is rarely a situation where you're fighting with somebody
where they're going to say things that are valid. Typically
it's just to hurt you, typically just to get under
your skin, typically to make you feel bad. And that's
(24:05):
where we need to cut the line. That's where we
need to just make sure that we're not attached to
these people at all and not attached to their words
at all, and not allow them to continue to pull
us there. They will try to invalidate your emotions because
by invalidating your emotions, they validate their actions. They will
try to make you feel like you are crazy, because
by making you feel like you're crazy, they will make
(24:27):
themselves feel like they're better. They're gaslighting you into these things,
and again not using that word loosely, not throwing it around.
Accountability is important, but there are people that will make
you feel as if what you're feeling and saying is wrong,
just because they want to win, just because they would
rather be little you than step up to anything else.
They would rather make you feel like your garbage and
nothing than it is to actually be good. We need
(24:52):
to learn that these people don't actually have value in
our lives, that their words should not change where we are.
But if we can take you to go back to
that and say, well, how you make me feel, or
what you are, what you do, that's who I want
to be around, you'll continue to give into this cycle
that will continue to hurt you and efforts to keep them.
(25:15):
There's no one in this world. Life is way too short.
There's no one in this world that is worth hurting
yourself so that they will stay. No one that loves you,
genuinely loves you, wants to see you hurt. The only
ones that want to see you hurt are the people
that take advantage of you. So I mentioned before this
no contact thing, and this is hard, but it's probably
(25:41):
the most powerful thing you ever do. No contact is
not punishment, it's protection. It's keeping yourself enough at a
distance that you allow yourself the freedom to not revert
to things. And this is hard because again it's so
easy with the world that we live and we're so connected.
There's so many ways and avenues and memories and things
that flush and flourish back. But as these memories come,
(26:06):
as these thoughts and processes come through, I want you
to just sit back and just think about the person.
Did they treat you right? Do they make you feel
loved and cared for? Do you actually feel valued and seen?
Or are you just connected to something of a moment
and I'm not talking about like it overall and just
(26:29):
like you're connected to a moment of happiness. We tend
to do this. We tend to bear when when we're
trying to convince ourselves otherwise right, when we're not actually
doing the right thing for ourselves. We tend to convince
ourselves that they were not always bad. And your brain,
your memory sucks, like your memory doesn't actually remember the
fullness of things. It remembers the memory of a memory.
So we'll highlight, especially when we're trying to block these emotions,
(26:52):
will highlight the good moments and will make those things magnified,
and that overshadows so much more. To just think about
it this way, We'll say, in this very simple way,
is it good for a person to be good to
you four times but bad toe you forty? Like? Is
it good that they were good here and there and
they made you feel happy here and there, and they
(27:14):
said all the right things all the way through, but
they made you feel terrible in all these other situations.
They made you feel less valued, or less seen or
less loved. But you know what, they were really good
in those few moments. I think when we remember that,
when we use that, that becomes fuel, it becomes a catalyst.
(27:34):
And I'm not saying it's healthy. I'm never one for
affirming this kind of thought pattern, right, and it's negative
affirmation for this thing, but or negative reinforcement or other.
But sometimes when we're there steep, we need those things.
(27:54):
We need to know that we're not giving these people
access anymore. But they don't have power over us because
we're not responding, we're not connecting, we're not engaging. We're
letting this toxic thing die. The only way you heal
is by getting out of the toxic pond. Like if
(28:15):
you the only way you're gonna drive from this this puddle,
this pond is by getting out of it, and if
you keep going back into it, you will never dry.
You'll drive more less and less and less each time
because you're more used to it, and going back quicker
and healing. I'm not saying it's quick, because healing isn't linear.
There are days that you're going to feel like none
of that even mattered. You think, how we're so dumb?
How did I fall into it? But there will be
(28:35):
days where you are to really depressed or serials, really
sad or missing it. Why, Because it's not linear, It
doesn't just all magically go away. Time is really the
only friend you have. And eventually it doesn't go away,
but it becomes less and it becomes less potent, and
your desire to speak to them lesson, you desire to
reach out, lesson, you desire to put yourself through it
(28:57):
less and you heal from that. And maybe for some situations,
the longevity that you were in it hurts, so it
takes more time for you to heal. But this is
the reality, this is the truth that we have to
deal with that the only way we heal is by
(29:20):
not going back into the thing that killed us. So
by not going back into the pond of the thing
that hurt us. You need to heal because you deserve
to heal, and you deserve to trust you Again, the
biggest things that we fail with is that we turn
our own trust and our own judgment and we begin
(29:46):
to lack in that, we begin to criticize what we
do when we believe because that we've allowed ourselves to
be in these situations. It's okay to go do these
things and know that you're a human, that you're desiring
goodness and love and peace, and you gave it to
the wrong person. But that doesn't diminish your power, doesn't
diminish who you are. So as we talk about just
(30:06):
changing from those people, walking away from them, we need
to realize that they won't change, but we can change.
We can change where we are, we can change our perspective,
we can change the relationship. We can change them by
moving them. So thank you for being on this episode.
(30:27):
And I really hope that this is a fruitful one
for those of a struggling in this because I know
it's a hard one. I know it's something that a
lot of people have to unpack because we've been hurt
and we've been wounded, and again, not everyone's literally a
clinically diagnosed narcissists. But we'll take it from our popular
societal understanding. And if this episode was good for you,
(30:50):
I just ask you know, typical stuff, if you could
share it and you could give it five stars or
download it. Please download the episodes. That's actually the metric
that's measured the most sharing that in there. Thank you
for being here, thinking for present, and we'll catch you
on the next one.
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