July 18, 2019 • 42 mins
This week Bob sits down with Daniel Glass, President and Founder of the indie darling Glassnote Records. Dive into his origins as “Disco Danny” spinning tracks at the legendary Regine’s; learn why he’s so passionate about radio and why it was crucial to breaking acts like Mumford & Sons and Childish Gambino; and discover why he’s made a habit of letting go of the A-minuses (spoiler: he works harder to land bands like Phoenix and other A-pluses!)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I
Heart Radio music. People didn't evolve. We lost fifteen years
as a business because people were fearful of streaming and
what Napster and that was all about. I think we've
caught up. We have a long way to go. I
(00:21):
think we're just scratching the surface with the value of
music and now the power of a brand using musicians
and songs. It's very high. I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome
to Math and Magic. Stories from the frontiers of Marketing. Today.
(00:42):
We're going to explore marketing in the music business with
someone who's seen it all. DJ Indie Exact, major music
company Exact, and back to his own label to do
it the way he wants to do it. Last note Entertainment.
He's a marathon er, wifelong Brooklyn guy born and raised
(01:04):
in Brooklyn before Brooklyn was cool, loved music and radio.
Broadway influenced him, and so did the New York nightclubs
of the nineties seventies. He started as a premed student
at Brooklyn College, worked as a soda jerk and a
short order cook too, and that wild diversity of experience
in long history and music is why we have him
with us today and we want some insights. He was
(01:26):
Disco Danny, the DJ at the legendary Regime's in New York,
and now he is Daniel Glass. Daniel Welcome, nice to
be here. Wow. If someone did the homework, yeah, well
we had to. We didn't want to disappoint you. We're
gonna get into the meat of it, but first we
want to do you in sixty seconds. Don't think too
long to say the first thing that comes to your mind.
Do you prefer Brooklyn or Manhattan? Manhattan currently current locale?
(01:49):
By that West Side Story or the King and I
West Side Story? First music? Vanilla or chocolate chocolate, Pat Benatar,
Billy Idol, m Billie Idol, Sunrise or Sunsets Sunrise, Wine
or beer wine, Instagram or Twitter, Twitter, It's about to
(02:10):
get harder. Secret talent of mine. Yeah, whoa recently yoga?
Oh that's pretty good. Favorite song Moon River, Henry Mancini.
Book you recommend? Oh wow, I just read so many books.
Rome a story in seven sackings. Fastest marathon time three eighteen,
(02:32):
quickest smile on record, I've done a bunch of sixes. Impressive.
Favorite concert moment, first one ever was the who in
Allenville at the Neviley Hotel, seeing Pete Townsend stick his
nose out and my father took me when I was
really really young to see that. That's my favorite moment.
Smartest person you know, Jeff Bezos favorite DJ, Frankie Crocker,
(02:56):
childhood hero, Mickey Mantle and Harmon Killer Brew. If you
could have one superpower, what would it be to play
professional basketball? Is there one food you'd never eat? I
would never eat octopus or a squid or anything like that.
Never no tentacles. We got it. Okay, there's a pattern
(03:17):
emerging here. What topic can you talk about forever? My
children and my family quote to live by? Do you
have one show up? We start today? You have your
own company, Glass Note, entertainment artists like Mumfranson, Phoenix, Churches, etcetera, etcetera.
Rolling Stonet even picked Glass Notice the best any label
(03:38):
back in two thousand and eleven. But let's start back
with you as a kid in Brooklyn. How did you
get on this path? So I was destined. I was
a very good basketball player, but short, I mean I
wasn't the height I am Now I broke my leg
for the third time playing basketball at Newold High School,
and my mother said, get a job because I cannot
continue to shuttle you back and forth just too much.
(04:01):
And as the weather got bad, he said, you've got
to find something to do. So I was working as
a bus boy in the Catskill Mountains and one day
Bruce Morrow walked in, who was a regular up there,
Cousin Brucey, famous New York, famous New York d w ABC,
and he brought up to the counter a guy named
Barry Martin. And Barry was with w bc R in Brooklyn,
(04:25):
and my job was to get the orders together, the
food and bring them out to people. It was the very,
very high end of fast food in the middle of
the Catskill Mountains. So this guy I told him, I'm
going to Brooklyn College, and he said, you should come
up and see us at the radio station. I kept
his card and cousin Brucey said to me, that's what
you should do. One day, it must have been a
(04:45):
year later, I need something to do, and I contact
this guy, Barry Martin. I said, listen, I'm on crutches
for the next eight weeks. Could I get a job.
I'll do anything, anything, and he said, yeah, come up.
So by mistake, I filled that an application and became
a DJ. I didn't even know what that meant because
I was listening to w O R w N A,
(05:06):
w W A BC in those days, w M C A,
and my elocution, my diction was awful. You're talking about
deep Brooklyn accent. So I had to actually learn how
to speak properly and enunciate. I get this job, and
I realized the radio station format is very hippie rock.
My sister was older than me and she's listening to
hippie rock. So I decide I'm going to go against
(05:28):
the grain. I'm gonna play disco music, R and B
and soul music. And my show becomes really, really popular.
I go to two days a week, and then Manhattan
Cable Television picks up my show and that was it.
People in the publishing world heard of my show, and
I got my break when someone reached out to me
on my show and made a request, and I made
(05:49):
the leap with my boss's permission to meet that person.
It was a songwriter. And then in my end of
my junior year in college, I gave up my major
and witched to totally immersing myself in the music industry.
So story has it that your first club you visited
was Club eight two in New York? Is that right? Yeah?
(06:10):
I was sixteen years old and my friends said, I
got the car this weekend. I'm going to take you
a place. It's gonna blow your mind. Be ready, but
you have to dress. And I had to go out
and get faded glory jeans and water buffaloes, which were
these high heels cork shoes. And it changed my life
because we walked down that stairway and you see pictures
of Mick Jagger, David Johansson, New York Dolls, everyone's in
(06:33):
drag and there's a guy behind the turntables playing seven
inch vinyl named Tony Mansfield. And I was so shocked
at this atmosphere, a kid from Brooklyn. All I did
was spend time watching him play the music as the DJ.
I wanted to do that, and that's what I wind
up doing. So there was a lot of talk. At
least there's a lot of talk today about Studio fifty four,
(06:54):
and there was in those days too, But back then,
the other club was the sophisticated club. Regimes have been
in Paris, came to New York. How did you become disco?
Danny there showing up? How old are you at this point?
I graduated at nineteen, so I'm probably eighteen at the time.
I'm working as a publisher Antisota Jerk and my boss,
who is the songwriter, she said, bring our new record
(07:17):
to this club. I know the lady who owns the club.
Her name is Regime, I know from Paris. Bring on
the record. So I go there and the club's opening
in two days and I'm on Park Avenue at fifty
Street on the Demonico and I'm in a cattle call
line and they think I want a job, and nobody
really speaks English except one person. They said to me,
you wait, you wait, you wait. All I wanted to
(07:39):
do is give this to the DJ or the manager.
And I did my job and go back to Brooklyn,
and instead they said, please come downstairs. You want to
show you the turntables. And I go downstairs and it's
the most beautiful room I've ever seen in my life.
It was Regime's and they had two thorns turntables, which
I was privileged to work on. And they said, great,
(08:00):
we can invite you for dinner tonight, but here are
some meal vouchers to go to Shrafts. And I said,
I don't need anything. I'm gonna go home. And it's
no, no no, no, but you should really eat with the
other people, but we can't invite you to eat in
the name of the chef was Michelle Garrard, who was
one of the greatest chefs in the world, still alive
and in France. So I became opening night DJ and
(08:20):
I co DJ with Jonathan garrel Valia. He taught me
all about European and South American music. I taught him
all about American music. And I was the DJ there
for about a year and a half, three to six
nights a week at Regime's and got to meet or
see or experience Grace Kelly, Elizabeth Taylor, Diane von Furstenburg
when she was married to Egon von Furstenburgh. It was
(08:42):
every night these type of people. Liz Smith from the
gossip columns, who just passed away, would call me every
couple of weeks and I became not a source of gossip,
but she wanted to quote me on something and she
started with dis squire Daniel Glass, and I said, that
doesn't work disco Danny, I said that's fine. So I
was quoted a bunch of times of who came in
and what records always playing. When I played Sarone for
(09:04):
the first time, would Georgia Moroda would give me a
record and people and Chic and before she was even signed,
Tom Cassi gave me the copy of K And that's
how I was a DJ in the Suit and Tie Club.
So Studio fifty four was about the same era. How
do you contrast those two, Well, they had a lot
in common. It was a sophistication. The mix of Study
(09:27):
fifty four was outrageous and fantastic. I remember the first
time hearing about Studio fifty four. I was at a
club called Hurrah in Lincoln Center and it was the
most beautiful club and that's where the beautiful people went.
And these these two guys running around with business cards,
handing out invitations, and they owned a club, Cold Enchanted
Gardens and it was Steve Rebel and Ian Schrager. I
(09:47):
was with a model and I'm dancing with her and
they didn't give me a card. They gave her a card,
please show up, And that was the getting the word
out opening this club. And nobody expected the opening of
this to be as important, but the mix them along
longet the confluence of cultures that they put together through
their door policy was phenomenal. Regime's had a barrier of price,
so not everybody can get in because bottle service in
(10:10):
those days it's probably the same price today. It was
hundreds of dollars for a bottle of Scotch or whatever
you like to drink. Fifty four was getting in. It
wasn't that expensive to get into Studio fifty four. But
each night was a different experience. It was a theme,
and Sunday was as good as Thursday, and Saturday was
as good as Tuesday. Fact, Saturday was probably the worst
night to go to Studio fifty four and we wound
(10:31):
up there as DJs workers nightlife people need a release.
So where do you go at three when you shut down?
And we had our favorites. Twelve West was a great club.
There was Limelight, there was Gallery, there was Galaxy one
and Studio fifty four was another great place we went
to and that was sort of where we all met after.
So why did you leave that? I it sounds like
(10:52):
you're in the middle of the hottest, most exciting place
to be at this time. So this guy walks up
to me, is about six ft five six ft six,
good looking guy, and he says Dan Frank Shields. I
said hi, and he said, I love what you do.
Can you make me a cassette? I said yes. And
Regine had given us a price at Regimes. You couldn't
(11:13):
just make a cassette for twenty five dollars, which is
a lot of money. She wanted you to charge seventy
undred dollars. So I made Frank some cassettes and he said,
you gotta come see me, young man. He's the number
two at Revlon Worldwide. And I get to go to
this GM building and I go up to Revlon. I
meet Charles Revson, who is another customer of Regin's, and
they said, listen, Dan, I'm the president of a club
(11:34):
at the Sherry Netherlands Hotel and we need a DJ.
We need the flavor of Regimes, and I'm going to
offer you a contract. I only gonna meet the owner
of the club. It's called Doubles, and this is a
member's only club. We need you to leave Regimes. And
I left and I went to Doubles and they gave
me a contract. Now I'm getting married, and like you know,
it's hard. You're working and your djaying all night and
(11:56):
it's it's a crazy life. And then had to subcontract
and my a our skills in those days. I subcontracted
to some of the greatest DJs in the world. I
gave Junior Vasquez his first job, who went on to
produce him right for Madonna. Ted Currier who became a
producer writer. He worked at ninety nine X and with
Frankie Crocker, so nobody in New York City knew this.
(12:17):
We were making all the mixtapes for w BLS and
nine n X out of doubles DJ booth. So there
was a story that when you were at Regime's you
took a tip, and Regime you took too little. I
took either ten dollars or twenty dollars to play a record,
and she was disgusted with me. She said, never never.
I think it was fifty was the minimum or a hundred,
(12:39):
And she said, don't ever do that. She said, We're
not that type of club. I'm for a kid like
myself to make ten or twenty dollars to play a song.
I was gonna play it anyway. I learned a lot
about rich people. I learned a lot about people from
around the world, and I think the palette I've developed.
People always say glass Note is a very international label. Well,
the taste buds were cultivated there because I was listening
(13:00):
to music from Brazil and from Germany and Italy. I've
never identified as an American record executive. I have more
in common with the UK and Europe that I do
as ex Yeah, and I think it's the d n
A of an American and the culture growing up with
an American is completely different. You grow up in America,
you have so many fields of influenced interest and distraction.
(13:23):
In the UK, you still are born and bred listening
to music. When I came up in the industry in
the late seventies and early eighties, I got to witness
a lot of black music, a lot of very important
soul and disco music Philadelphia, Washington, Virginia, North Carolina, driving
around those areas, and I got to go to your
neck of the woods. When I got a little more
(13:44):
advanced and went to Mississippi and Georgia, and when release
day happened for the new albums of the new singles.
People needed to have their Earth Wind and Fire and
their James Brown record. You know, it's just a way
of life. You needed your music, and that stopped in America.
It's broader now out because of streaming and because of
what you've done, Bob, making music more accessible for people.
(14:04):
But in those days you had to have your music.
And I find that in places like England, music is
much more necessary to the way of life. You know,
in the order when you put food, video games, film, fashion, gossip,
all that stuff. Was there something about worldliness that you
got there that you think you still use today. Was
there something about exclusivity which you think you used today? Yes?
(14:28):
So firstly, the genesis of the club. He figured out
what makes the rich tick, how to charge them, how
to seat them. What makes the rich tick? Well, I
think it's a club that travels with each other around
the world and also disposes of things very quickly, so
you have to keep up. Whether it's the Hampton's, whether
it's Malibu, whether it's just odd, it's just a way
(14:51):
of knowing how to cater to people, and it's the
ability to turn people away. Every business. The most powerful
word is not yes, it's no. And at think it's
great for an artist manager to say no. It's great
for a radio station to say too many spots. It's
great to say no. And I think that exclusionary policy
is what turns people on. It makes you want to
(15:12):
go more. Also, two things were going on at regime's
in that era. That's when it was truly fun and
truly frivolous and open. That stopped like a two. That's
a major portion of New York culture and society and
obviously around the world. Also, and I think affluence changed.
You could not get into a lounge of an airport
(15:33):
in those days. You dressed up to go to an airport.
Today everybody flies. Everybody can get into the points and
frequent flyers stuff, So affluence has changed. Access has changed.
I was witnessing the last of an era of exclusivity
of people that traveled together all year round, and jets
set meant something to them. They all knew each other.
And that changed because you had tech people all of
(15:55):
a sudden, and fashion people and music people making a
lot of money. And today's richest of rich are the
tech people who are dominating that. And then I unders
did in regimes they wouldn't be interested in fifty four.
Just hold on a second, because we've got so much
more to talk about. We'll be back after a quick break.
(16:17):
Welcome back the Math and Magic. So let's jump a
little bit the late nineteen seventies. You jumped to Sam Records,
Sam White's label. He would become your father in law,
and you started in promotions. I mean, here you are.
You knew all about music, have no but everything. You
may have known me or people may know me as promotion.
But we had to mix the record, edit the record.
(16:38):
I learned how to do business affairs. We did everything.
So that was good for you to be at a
small label to learn it all. The most important thing
do you think you used that today? With every day?
Every day? I use it because I'm on top of
the business affairs, the deals. I don't enjoy doing them,
but I know about it. You have to do budgets,
you have to get the publishing business down and understand
the copyright of the song, the value of it. I
(17:00):
was very talented in the studio and quite proficient, but
I didn't enjoy the solitude of the studio, how cold
it was, the food, the dysfunctional hours, because I was
really mixing a lot and editing a lot. I'd walk
at at three o'clock on a Sunday and it would
be bright sunshine, and I didn't know what time it was.
I didn't think that was gonna be good for my life,
so I stopped doing studio work. Well, you sort of
(17:21):
made your name as the promotion person, sort of managed
to make a record happen back in the heydaya NDS
And I'll take people back a little bit before consolidation.
Chris Wright Terry Ellis had an amazing indie Chrysalis Records.
How did you get there? So the man that was
running the company was a guy named Jack Craigo. He
was a president of the company. We had a lot
(17:41):
of success at Sam Records. The first two records that
we signed that went to Columbia where Gary's Gang and
John Davis and the Monster Orchestra. They both went gold.
So Columbia Records hired myself and Sam Records to promote
and market Santana Records, Barbara Streisan Records, all these disco
records they were putting out because we knew what to
(18:02):
do in the twelve inch market. Tell people what a
twelve inches, oh twelve inch vinyl is one song that
has an extended mix, extended by time and extended by
the vibe and the deep mixes of it. And the
biggest personalities in those days were the DJ remixers Tom Moulton,
Tom Savarese, John Luongo, Jelly Bean. I mean, these are
the characters Jim Burgess. They could make or break a record,
(18:24):
and if you were smart enough, you saved all yours
because there're worth a lot of money. I still use them.
Do you still have them? So you go on this
promotion track not A and R. Was it really just
the studio that you didn't want to spend all that
time late night? Or was it there is something special
about making these songs come to life? No, I was
too good at it. I had a passion burning, and
I had gotten out of the studio where the first
(18:47):
couple of records that I loved at Chrysalis, war Spandau Ballet, Ultravox,
and there was a record by fun Boy three. I
took the records out of the studio or from the
imports and brought them to my friends that I had
met over the years, particularly Frankie Crocker at w b
LS he played them all. He broke true by spandol ballet,
(19:08):
and to have a black DJ breaking UK music that
had soul in it, I thought it was just natural.
They thought I was a genius because I was getting
all these records played. And then I drove to Philadelphia
brought him a W D A S. Because that's who
played all the Sam records was all black radio stations.
And then I went to w h u R in Washington,
(19:29):
d C. And then of a sudden, kiss came in
w k Y S. But I went to basically black
radio stations and they loved the music and they played
all the music. And that's how we took spanned Out
Ballet up the charts. Until kfr C in San Francisco
played spanned Out val A would never have gotten out
of that, and then it went popping. I knew nothing
about promotion. I think the lesson here is the innocence
(19:50):
of it was. I went in because I believed in
the music, and I knew real relationships with people that
trusted me because I went to the clubs with them,
whether with Studio fifty four or the Paradise Garage. We
listened to music together A few nights a week. So
when I said to them, I think this would work,
and then everybody got hip to it, and all of
a sudden, they bring in the Clash and they're bringing
(20:12):
R and B, R and B and dance Radio are
breaking all these cool bands, which was wild, which I
guess it would call today alternative music, but it was.
It was passion. You went on to the majors, you
expanded your role to run labels, You worked with all
the big names. Got two or three takeaways from that
of somebody today. What lessons did you learn there that
(20:34):
you think are relevant people today they are thinking about
music and musing marketing. Don't do it. Stay away. We
were bought, merged or consolidated three or four times in
my career and it was very frustrating. You know, I
never wanted to leave Chrysalis. If I could stay with
Chris Wright and work my way up to becoming president
CEO and staying there for my entire career, I would
(20:54):
have moved to England and have done that. But they
sold it d m I. When we created sp K,
it was most magical independent label in the world. In
less than three years to have Vanilla Ice, the Ninja Turtles,
Wilson Phillips, Blur, Jesus Jones, the beginnings of Oasis, John Sacada,
all on one label in two and a half years.
(21:14):
It's unheard of. They sold it who they sell it to?
A m I so twice. I'm under thirty five years old.
This is happening. And then Doug Morris and I started
this label called Rising Tide and that got folded in
and became what is today the great Dominant Universal Records,
and so many of my colleagues and proteges are still
there and it's thriving. But I was a fish out
(21:36):
of water when I had to move into those situations.
What didn't you like about it? The human resource train.
If you gave me of my day or week doing
A and R and creative and promotion and marketing and
artist development, I would be very happy. My job went
from sixty to seventy human resource between budgeting and things
that had nothing to do with music. And there are
(21:58):
people that do that much better and enjoy that, and
I give them a lot of credit. I wasn't cut
out for that. I'd rather be with the artists and
musicians I've been in the last few days to Copenhagen
to see Mumford and Sons. I'll be a bottle rock
to see the Teskey Brothers this weekend. They can't do that.
They would not know the names of the people in
the bands, the lead singer or the guitars. They don't
know the producer. I need to know that stuff because
(22:20):
that's what I love doing. So let's jump to today
and the marketing. The total sponsorship business today is about
twenty four billion dollars, but only about five or six
of that is spent against music sponsorship. Sports gets most
of it. Two great passion points in America, sports and music.
You and I would argue music is the biggest passion point.
Why do you think marketers are missing the message that
(22:43):
not spending more on music as their path to connecting
with the consumer. So I think it's catching up when
you see valuations of both music companies publishing companies. But
now the value of an I Heart, the value of Spotify,
the value of the Apple Music, YouTube music. You see
what Telco's value the music input, how it gets you
(23:04):
on a subscription model or a free model. So I
think we were undervalued there. I think you had the
wrong people talking to the wrong people with relationships. Sports
agents and sports marketing was done earlier and more sophisticated
and had a lot of expertise representing people. Music people
(23:24):
didn't evolve. We lost fifteen years as a business because
people were fearful of streaming and what napster and that
was all about. So we lost fifteen years of business.
We've caught up very nicely. I want to do a
quick aside here. In the days that everyone wanted to
shut down Napster, you were about the only person in
the music industry saying, wait a minute, that's our future.
(23:44):
How did that feel to be the lone wolf? And
by the way, today it turns out, of course you
were correct. Yeah, I mean it was awful because my
theory to my bosses were which restaurant, which club, which scene?
Would you rather go to the one where there's a
few million people now they are stealing, they are sharing,
they are pirating, Yes I know that. Or would you
rather go to the record stores where then where a
(24:05):
couple of hundred thousand people I'd rather be with a
few million people were And that's what my three children
were talking about. Is this new thing I actually don't
know how to use it, they just kept talking about it.
I think we did ourselves a disservice as a business
by not going to the table with those early Shawn
Fanning people and Sean Parker people and negotiating and finding
a way to make it work or emulate it legally. Instead,
(24:28):
we were clinging onto this life raft called the CD
and the cassette, which was foolish because it's going to
go on without you anyway. The professionalism of music people
with something to be desired, and now you have this
relationship of great artists, great brands. I was on a
plane reading the Financial Times about Rihanna's new line with
LVMH the fenty line. I mean, that couldn't happen years ago.
(24:52):
I remember the first time our business got wind of
you know, Jessica Simpson did some stuff early on with
some of the mass marketers. Or you saw itam in
water with baseball players, actresses and fifty cent and you
said wow. And I'm sure Interscope was saying, like, we
didn't get a piece of that vitamin water thing. I
think you got a hundred million dollars for that when
they sold for two or three billion dollars to the
(25:14):
soda company. I think we've caught up. We have a
long way to go. I think we as a business
have always undervalued our perception and our representation of the
value of music. And I think what's happened with streaming
and what's happened when you do your shows Bob in
Las Vegas or in Florida, or you do the Jingle
bowls is everybody sees the scope and size and breadth
(25:39):
of music and how it influences in the world Madonna
most recently at Eurovision in Israel. When you see the
influence of Indian music, Brazilian music, African music, the most
dominant music on YouTube is Latin music, and I think
we know more about that right now. So you have
more professional representation, you've got more professional branding people. I
(26:00):
think we're just scratching the surface with the value of music,
of what it could mean, because all we knew was
a business was a soundtrack. And now the power of
a brand using musicians and songs, it's very high. Brands
often say they want to be part of culture, they
want to make culture. How do you think that fits
into this? How do they use music to put themselves
(26:21):
squarely in the center of culture? Well, the sponsorships of
showing up at festivals shows. You know. So years ago
when the Rolling Stones had that, I think it was
jo Van it was pronounced perfume or or cologne sponsoring that,
people said how could they do that? And then Bob
Dylan doing I think it was a victorious secret commercial
or something like that. It's it's the one for Chrysler. Yes,
(26:43):
it's the machic Phoenix. When they did the nineteen o
one did the Catallac commerce, it was romantic, it was beautiful.
The synergies there. So I think we've unleashed value and
we have unleashed creativity and a really smart brand knows
look at what Jimmy Ivan and Dre did with the
head phones athletes and musicians. You identify with them that
(27:03):
marriage of sports, of brands of music. Smart people got
together and realize the value of it. Well, you know
you've talked about Phoenix, You've done things with Phoenix, You've
done it with Mumford where you are not afraid to
put it in the marketing mix. How do you think
about using marketing and other marketers and other brands to
help your acts and to give them additional exposure. So
(27:26):
we're probably one of the purest companies when it comes
to the use of our artists or music. We filtered
out a lot of requests. We turned down probably nine
seven percent of requests where I would say a major
label would probably accept and ask the artists to do
it first. Most of our artists write their own music.
That separates us from I would say, you know, most
(27:49):
of the record business who are getting other songwriters to
come in. So our self contained artists have a lot
of authenticity and a lot of integrity. So when they
do decide to do a film, or to do a
answers or to do something with a brand, it's been
very very well thought about, and they actually work with
the brand to make it work for their lifestyle and
(28:10):
the road that they want to travel, which is why
we're a difficult company to deal with. But when you
do get us to do something, it comes out great authenticity.
It's authenticity and it's purity. I think it's better for
the brand. So let's jump to a topic near and
dear to my heart, yours too. Radio it's been at
the heart of what you do, what I do, if
it's certainly at the heart of music marketing and always
(28:32):
has been, still is today. Eight percent of consumers and
even of Spotify users say the main way they discover
new music is FM radio. In the days of the LPs,
consumers heard a song on the radio or the DJ
talk about it, and when I bought it. Today they
hear it, they stream it. Things really haven't changed that much.
What is radio and why is it so central to
(28:55):
all types of music marketing? How do you use it?
It's such a personal medium. I radio as being a friend,
as being your warm hug. That you get the answer
if you asked a hundred record executives, music executives, writers, producers,
artists out of a hundred will say to you, the
first time I heard my song on the radio. You
(29:16):
listen to Rolling Stone documentaries they talk about the radio.
You know, it's a now and it's a verb, it's
an adjective, but it's personality. It's your friend. It is
something that greets you in the morning my alarm clock,
not because I'm here with you, bob ze because it's happy. Well,
it's a level of talent on the air because it's
evolved since the z Morning Zoo started and I grew
(29:38):
up with this radio station with my kids. But it's
the level of talent and preparation, the work. I know
that I'm getting a very expensive product. This is not
a casual bunch of people. These are highly trained people
who were sleeping when you were partying last night, preparing
for a great show. They're entertainers. They're passionate about the music.
(29:58):
They front and back and down a record. You have
to get that. You hear the saliva coming out of there.
You hear the disappointment, you hear the frustration. You hear
all kinds of stories about sports, weather, news, tragedy, miracles,
elections in context with great music and great rotation. So
the endorsement of a radio station, the support that plays
(30:20):
it a lot, means that there's something going on. I
can't think of how to break an artist or a
record without radio in tandem with streaming. I think streaming
is very key as an early indicator or a late indicator.
But you must have radio. You know, it's very rare
that you get to Madison Square Garden or the headlining
(30:41):
of a festival, whether it's Lallapalooza or Glastonbury without radio.
I'll give you a scene in Copenhagen. I went to
a restaurant that blew my mind. My wife and I
really push ourselves culturally to do great things. So before
we went to see Mumford and Sons in Copenhagen Thursday night,
we got to go to Noma. How could you get in?
Because and he heard me on an interview once and
(31:02):
was inspired. One of the co owners and managers heard
it and invited me a year ago. Lucky. So I'm
very lucky, and I pinched myself. We get to Noma
and we're clicking. There are twenty four different chefs working there,
twenty four different nationalities helping us. And this one guy
comes over. I said, where you from? He says, hey, mate,
from Australia. And I start rattling off my successes. I've
(31:23):
got my early days of ice House and Johnny diesel On,
the divinyls that I hit him with, Mansion Air, the
temperature rap flight facilities, the Teskey brothers, it's blank, nothing
going on. My wife said, wow, that was like cold.
I'm on the way to the men's room and I said,
my wife thinks you're a hip hop head. He said,
I am. I said, well, you know, we broke childish gambino. Oh,
(31:45):
now you're talking. He said, I'm getting married. I'm gonna
march down the aisle just so into you. And he
has the wrong artist and I said, no, that was
to Mia and he did it on Triple J radio.
He comes back to the table and he said, you're right.
It was Triple J Radio. Why I first heard that song.
So it was radio connecting us at this moment of
a song that he did as a cover song when
(32:07):
he was in Australia, and that was a big moment.
So again radio came up. The lady that served us
our coffee, where are you from? She said, I'm from Kent.
I said, Kent, England. I said, we just signed most
of wild She said you did. I heard them in
the radio. So this is a meal in Copenhagen and
I'm dealing with Australian about radio and a UK person
(32:28):
about radio. The connection. Someone said to me the other day,
interviewed me as a college kid, what was the turning
point of glass? Note? When did you know? Because my
whole conversation with him was the fear of going out
of business, that fear of getting up on Monday morning
or Friday nights, whatever it was, and thinking we couldn't
stay in business, and I still have that fear. By
the way, Bob, I'm sure you do too. Every entrepreneur,
(32:49):
every owner goes through it daily and it's a great anxiety.
And I loved living on the edge like that. So
my moment of exhale, my moment of validation, was a
phone call from z one Ndred that we're adding The
first record we ever released was Full for You by
Secondhand Serenade. I was driving on the North Fork thinking
we're going out of business, and that phone call came
(33:10):
in and I realized, we're here to stay. That's a
real story, so let's go here to stay. The music
collection has clearly moved to streaming and subscription, but not
all the way. They're still CDs out there. Actually, the
funny thing is more people listen to c D in
the car than they do their streaming service. Will c
D survive in a diminished role or does it go
away like eight track tapes? The problem is cars. I
(33:32):
have a car, and one of the reasons I do
not trade it in because I have a CD player
and the team at Glassnoe makes me I do homework
every weekend, and it's a CD without knowing who the lawyer,
the agent, the manager, the producer is and I put
it on repeat and I listened to music. Maybe I'm
old fashioned that way. I think the CD is going
to subside like the download stores and go away. I
(33:54):
think vinyl will not go away. Vinyl is fine. The
country music scene of CDs is doing well. I just
got back from Germany about a month ago, and if
it's the first time I've seen a softening of that
physical market, Japan is about to turn, I think into
a streaming market. What percentage of glass note is physical copy? Oh?
Probably now? And as the hits get bigger, lower many records.
(34:18):
We never put anything physical out never, so all marketers
love their product to be the thing. I was fortunate
enough to hit it with the Gang at MTV in
the eighties, a O. L. In the mid nineties, Google
and Facebook had Benett I Heart visit with radio. But
you do it again and again every time you build
a new hit. It's the thing for a period of time.
(34:40):
Brands would like to know, how do you do that? Well,
you have to do less than more and not just
put you know, Frisbees and plates up in the air
is an example. We're breaking an artist now are helping
break an artist around the world named Jade Bird. And
her manager had come to me four or five time
in the last few years and we just didn't feel
(35:02):
that would be the right home for his artists. And
he's a very very important manager. He's got hits with
Tom O'Dell and he's got hits with Liam Gallagher and
Plan b and Jess Glynn and this is an a
plus manager. But we heard something in Jade Bird, a
UK artist. We heard some music that we thought we
could really take to the top, particularly in North America,
(35:22):
but also in other markets like Germany and Australia and Scandinavia.
The second thing is we met her and you meet her.
I was not there at the beginning when Scott was
shed A met Taylor Swift. I was not there when
the Atlantic people met ed Sharon. But this is the
same drive, that same crazy ambition that I of the
tiger makes life really better when someone works harder than
(35:43):
you and they're driven as Elton John was, what Mick
Jagger was, or John Lennon or Prince or you know
John Legend. These artists are different, They just different. Those
two factors. Her talent and her ambition came in. So
for a marketer, I would say to you, if you're
getting behind something, believe even it. Believe it has longevity,
it has authenticity, and it will stand the bad weather.
(36:06):
I know there's gonna be cloudy and rainy days in
Jade Bird's career. We all have them, but her talent
will rise to the top as a Casey Musgraves did,
as a Brandy Carlile did, as Ed Sharon did. So
I'm with her to go all the way around the world.
If we're gonna be listening to this podcast in two years,
you're talking about a superstar that will be headlining all
(36:28):
over the world on festival stages at arena's. It's gonna
happen for her because she has two D and thirty
songs in her arsenal that have never been heard, and
she has that thing that Adele had. She's different because
it's Americana folky rock music coming out and like of
a twenty one year old. But she's from England. But
(36:50):
people said we'd never get the banjo and the kickdrum
played by Mumford and Sons. By the way, a banjo
and zoo who would have imagined right. So I think
for a brand to take a lesson from this is
when something is different, but it has to be real,
it has to be quality, it has to transcend. Those
are the brands that I would get behind. And I
(37:10):
do social science research every day of my life. It's
my ability to walk into a radio station or a
restaurant or a clothing store and sniff it out and
say that is the place to be. I had that
feeling at NOMA Thursday night, just getting out of the car.
The way we were greeted, you knew you were in
somewhere special. Those are the products you get behind. And
that's why I think there are dominant executives around the
(37:33):
world at the LVMH's and the carrings and the I
hearts that by the best of the best of the best.
You have to be willing to walk away from a
B and in this era, i'd walk away. I didn't
say this ten years ago. I think you need to
walk away from an. They don't stream, they don't make
it anymore. What I learned when I turned thirty or
thirty five was you cannot fix it in the mix.
(37:55):
You can't fix a marriage, you can't fix a movie.
It's not on the cutting floor. It just isn't. As
I get olver, I think people try to fix things,
you know, the expressions, remix it, master it differently, edit
it differently. You can't. The story is not there, the
essence is not there, the emotions not there. We tend
to glamorize and romanticize A minuses and B pluses to
(38:17):
make them better than they are. They're not. Some things
are better than others. That's it. That's it. And the
more we admit that because you spend as much money
on an as and today there's less return. We had
a business in the eighties, it was expecially we used
to ship records golden return, platinum or vice versa. We
could put them in the windows. We could, you know,
(38:39):
kind of game it. Yeah, but you can't do that anymore.
Work harder, work harder for a's and a pluses. So
we end each episode by going back to math and magic.
So in your experience, you've seen a lot of people.
Who's the best mathematician, you know, that best analytical person
(39:00):
you've met in your career. So everything in my life
has happened by showing up. Sofia Coppola is married to
the lead singer of Phoenix and Sophia, and Toma invited
us to the opening at Lincoln Center of a show
called Mozart in the Jungle. So I showed up. We
went into the wrong room, and who's there. Jeff Bezos.
He funded this show. And he's there and I start
(39:22):
talking to him. He's asking me about music marketing, very
similar to you. He sounds very much like you. Do
you know him? Well, okay, you remind me of him,
and vice versa. I got so much out of that
conversation of what he was about to do in music,
and now that I've gotten to know his head of music,
Steve Boom. They are so good at what they do
in data and analytics, in math, catering and learning about
(39:46):
the customer. I know I have my heart through my Alexa.
So we buy an Alexa from my mother in law,
who's not a child, and she's living in Florida and
she has her Alexa and she starts Sinatra, this one,
that one. She's now getting solicited through her Alexa on
concerts appearances, and she said, I'd love to have tickets
(40:06):
for this. She orders her cars. So he's figured out
my mother in law. He's figured out my wife, by
the way, So he's the mathematician. He's a genius. So
who's the greatest magician you've known? That show person that
has that just sixth sense of how to make everything exciting.
The Glass family were huge fans of everything Kanye West.
(40:26):
A magician is maybe a disrespectful word for him. It's
a compliment. It's a good okay. So I met him.
I founded an organization called life Beat many years ago
with Bob Caviana, who unfortunately passed away. I got to
meet him then and then uh he donated a vesper
through a radio station promotion. We did his touching fashion
and culture. I love following him and not a coincidence,
(40:49):
not irony, but he marries into this family that is genius.
You call the magicians the Chris Jenna d n A
tree is unbelievable. They're billionaires in that tree with Kylie
and all the Kardashians and the genders. So again you
may think that's superficial, but I'm fascinated with their ability
to grab the imagination of people. That's not a fifteen
minutes of fame. That's something else. I love it. Today
(41:12):
we've gone, Jeff Bezos all the way to Kanye West.
Mathematician magician Daniel Thanks, thank you, thanks for listening. I'm
Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much
(41:35):
for listening to Math and Magic, a production of I
Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special
thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent,
which is no small feat. Nikki Etre for pulling research
bill plaques, and Michael Asar for their recording help, our editor,
Ryan Murdoch, and of course Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel
(41:55):
Mango and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears.
Until next time,
You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I
Heart Radio music. People didn't evolve. We lost fifteen years
as a business because people were fearful of streaming and
what Napster and that was all about. I think we've
caught up. We have a long way to go. I
(00:21):
think we're just scratching the surface with the value of
music and now the power of a brand using musicians
and songs. It's very high. I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome
to Math and Magic. Stories from the frontiers of Marketing. Today.
(00:42):
We're going to explore marketing in the music business with
someone who's seen it all. DJ Indie Exact, major music
company Exact, and back to his own label to do
it the way he wants to do it. Last note Entertainment.
He's a marathon er, wifelong Brooklyn guy born and raised
(01:04):
in Brooklyn before Brooklyn was cool, loved music and radio.
Broadway influenced him, and so did the New York nightclubs
of the nineties seventies. He started as a premed student
at Brooklyn College, worked as a soda jerk and a
short order cook too, and that wild diversity of experience
in long history and music is why we have him
with us today and we want some insights. He was
(01:26):
Disco Danny, the DJ at the legendary Regime's in New York,
and now he is Daniel Glass. Daniel Welcome, nice to
be here. Wow. If someone did the homework, yeah, well
we had to. We didn't want to disappoint you. We're
gonna get into the meat of it, but first we
want to do you in sixty seconds. Don't think too
long to say the first thing that comes to your mind.
Do you prefer Brooklyn or Manhattan? Manhattan currently current locale?
(01:49):
By that West Side Story or the King and I
West Side Story? First music? Vanilla or chocolate chocolate, Pat Benatar,
Billy Idol, m Billie Idol, Sunrise or Sunsets Sunrise, Wine
or beer wine, Instagram or Twitter, Twitter, It's about to
(02:10):
get harder. Secret talent of mine. Yeah, whoa recently yoga?
Oh that's pretty good. Favorite song Moon River, Henry Mancini.
Book you recommend? Oh wow, I just read so many books.
Rome a story in seven sackings. Fastest marathon time three eighteen,
(02:32):
quickest smile on record, I've done a bunch of sixes. Impressive.
Favorite concert moment, first one ever was the who in
Allenville at the Neviley Hotel, seeing Pete Townsend stick his
nose out and my father took me when I was
really really young to see that. That's my favorite moment.
Smartest person you know, Jeff Bezos favorite DJ, Frankie Crocker,
(02:56):
childhood hero, Mickey Mantle and Harmon Killer Brew. If you
could have one superpower, what would it be to play
professional basketball? Is there one food you'd never eat? I
would never eat octopus or a squid or anything like that.
Never no tentacles. We got it. Okay, there's a pattern
(03:17):
emerging here. What topic can you talk about forever? My
children and my family quote to live by? Do you
have one show up? We start today? You have your
own company, Glass Note, entertainment artists like Mumfranson, Phoenix, Churches, etcetera, etcetera.
Rolling Stonet even picked Glass Notice the best any label
(03:38):
back in two thousand and eleven. But let's start back
with you as a kid in Brooklyn. How did you
get on this path? So I was destined. I was
a very good basketball player, but short, I mean I
wasn't the height I am Now I broke my leg
for the third time playing basketball at Newold High School,
and my mother said, get a job because I cannot
continue to shuttle you back and forth just too much.
(04:01):
And as the weather got bad, he said, you've got
to find something to do. So I was working as
a bus boy in the Catskill Mountains and one day
Bruce Morrow walked in, who was a regular up there,
Cousin Brucey, famous New York, famous New York d w ABC,
and he brought up to the counter a guy named
Barry Martin. And Barry was with w bc R in Brooklyn,
(04:25):
and my job was to get the orders together, the
food and bring them out to people. It was the very,
very high end of fast food in the middle of
the Catskill Mountains. So this guy I told him, I'm
going to Brooklyn College, and he said, you should come
up and see us at the radio station. I kept
his card and cousin Brucey said to me, that's what
you should do. One day, it must have been a
(04:45):
year later, I need something to do, and I contact
this guy, Barry Martin. I said, listen, I'm on crutches
for the next eight weeks. Could I get a job.
I'll do anything, anything, and he said, yeah, come up.
So by mistake, I filled that an application and became
a DJ. I didn't even know what that meant because
I was listening to w O R w N A,
(05:06):
w W A BC in those days, w M C A,
and my elocution, my diction was awful. You're talking about
deep Brooklyn accent. So I had to actually learn how
to speak properly and enunciate. I get this job, and
I realized the radio station format is very hippie rock.
My sister was older than me and she's listening to
hippie rock. So I decide I'm going to go against
(05:28):
the grain. I'm gonna play disco music, R and B
and soul music. And my show becomes really, really popular.
I go to two days a week, and then Manhattan
Cable Television picks up my show and that was it.
People in the publishing world heard of my show, and
I got my break when someone reached out to me
on my show and made a request, and I made
(05:49):
the leap with my boss's permission to meet that person.
It was a songwriter. And then in my end of
my junior year in college, I gave up my major
and witched to totally immersing myself in the music industry.
So story has it that your first club you visited
was Club eight two in New York? Is that right? Yeah?
(06:10):
I was sixteen years old and my friends said, I
got the car this weekend. I'm going to take you
a place. It's gonna blow your mind. Be ready, but
you have to dress. And I had to go out
and get faded glory jeans and water buffaloes, which were
these high heels cork shoes. And it changed my life
because we walked down that stairway and you see pictures
of Mick Jagger, David Johansson, New York Dolls, everyone's in
(06:33):
drag and there's a guy behind the turntables playing seven
inch vinyl named Tony Mansfield. And I was so shocked
at this atmosphere, a kid from Brooklyn. All I did
was spend time watching him play the music as the DJ.
I wanted to do that, and that's what I wind
up doing. So there was a lot of talk. At
least there's a lot of talk today about Studio fifty four,
(06:54):
and there was in those days too, But back then,
the other club was the sophisticated club. Regimes have been
in Paris, came to New York. How did you become disco?
Danny there showing up? How old are you at this point?
I graduated at nineteen, so I'm probably eighteen at the time.
I'm working as a publisher Antisota Jerk and my boss,
who is the songwriter, she said, bring our new record
(07:17):
to this club. I know the lady who owns the club.
Her name is Regime, I know from Paris. Bring on
the record. So I go there and the club's opening
in two days and I'm on Park Avenue at fifty
Street on the Demonico and I'm in a cattle call
line and they think I want a job, and nobody
really speaks English except one person. They said to me,
you wait, you wait, you wait. All I wanted to
(07:39):
do is give this to the DJ or the manager.
And I did my job and go back to Brooklyn,
and instead they said, please come downstairs. You want to
show you the turntables. And I go downstairs and it's
the most beautiful room I've ever seen in my life.
It was Regime's and they had two thorns turntables, which
I was privileged to work on. And they said, great,
(08:00):
we can invite you for dinner tonight, but here are
some meal vouchers to go to Shrafts. And I said,
I don't need anything. I'm gonna go home. And it's
no, no no, no, but you should really eat with the
other people, but we can't invite you to eat in
the name of the chef was Michelle Garrard, who was
one of the greatest chefs in the world, still alive
and in France. So I became opening night DJ and
(08:20):
I co DJ with Jonathan garrel Valia. He taught me
all about European and South American music. I taught him
all about American music. And I was the DJ there
for about a year and a half, three to six
nights a week at Regime's and got to meet or
see or experience Grace Kelly, Elizabeth Taylor, Diane von Furstenburg
when she was married to Egon von Furstenburgh. It was
(08:42):
every night these type of people. Liz Smith from the
gossip columns, who just passed away, would call me every
couple of weeks and I became not a source of gossip,
but she wanted to quote me on something and she
started with dis squire Daniel Glass, and I said, that
doesn't work disco Danny, I said that's fine. So I
was quoted a bunch of times of who came in
and what records always playing. When I played Sarone for
(09:04):
the first time, would Georgia Moroda would give me a
record and people and Chic and before she was even signed,
Tom Cassi gave me the copy of K And that's
how I was a DJ in the Suit and Tie Club.
So Studio fifty four was about the same era. How
do you contrast those two, Well, they had a lot
in common. It was a sophistication. The mix of Study
(09:27):
fifty four was outrageous and fantastic. I remember the first
time hearing about Studio fifty four. I was at a
club called Hurrah in Lincoln Center and it was the
most beautiful club and that's where the beautiful people went.
And these these two guys running around with business cards,
handing out invitations, and they owned a club, Cold Enchanted
Gardens and it was Steve Rebel and Ian Schrager. I
(09:47):
was with a model and I'm dancing with her and
they didn't give me a card. They gave her a card,
please show up, And that was the getting the word
out opening this club. And nobody expected the opening of
this to be as important, but the mix them along
longet the confluence of cultures that they put together through
their door policy was phenomenal. Regime's had a barrier of price,
so not everybody can get in because bottle service in
(10:10):
those days it's probably the same price today. It was
hundreds of dollars for a bottle of Scotch or whatever
you like to drink. Fifty four was getting in. It
wasn't that expensive to get into Studio fifty four. But
each night was a different experience. It was a theme,
and Sunday was as good as Thursday, and Saturday was
as good as Tuesday. Fact, Saturday was probably the worst
night to go to Studio fifty four and we wound
(10:31):
up there as DJs workers nightlife people need a release.
So where do you go at three when you shut down?
And we had our favorites. Twelve West was a great club.
There was Limelight, there was Gallery, there was Galaxy one
and Studio fifty four was another great place we went
to and that was sort of where we all met after.
So why did you leave that? I it sounds like
(10:52):
you're in the middle of the hottest, most exciting place
to be at this time. So this guy walks up
to me, is about six ft five six ft six,
good looking guy, and he says Dan Frank Shields. I
said hi, and he said, I love what you do.
Can you make me a cassette? I said yes. And
Regine had given us a price at Regimes. You couldn't
(11:13):
just make a cassette for twenty five dollars, which is
a lot of money. She wanted you to charge seventy
undred dollars. So I made Frank some cassettes and he said,
you gotta come see me, young man. He's the number
two at Revlon Worldwide. And I get to go to
this GM building and I go up to Revlon. I
meet Charles Revson, who is another customer of Regin's, and
they said, listen, Dan, I'm the president of a club
(11:34):
at the Sherry Netherlands Hotel and we need a DJ.
We need the flavor of Regimes, and I'm going to
offer you a contract. I only gonna meet the owner
of the club. It's called Doubles, and this is a
member's only club. We need you to leave Regimes. And
I left and I went to Doubles and they gave
me a contract. Now I'm getting married, and like you know,
it's hard. You're working and your djaying all night and
(11:56):
it's it's a crazy life. And then had to subcontract
and my a our skills in those days. I subcontracted
to some of the greatest DJs in the world. I
gave Junior Vasquez his first job, who went on to
produce him right for Madonna. Ted Currier who became a
producer writer. He worked at ninety nine X and with
Frankie Crocker, so nobody in New York City knew this.
(12:17):
We were making all the mixtapes for w BLS and
nine n X out of doubles DJ booth. So there
was a story that when you were at Regime's you
took a tip, and Regime you took too little. I
took either ten dollars or twenty dollars to play a record,
and she was disgusted with me. She said, never never.
I think it was fifty was the minimum or a hundred,
(12:39):
And she said, don't ever do that. She said, We're
not that type of club. I'm for a kid like
myself to make ten or twenty dollars to play a song.
I was gonna play it anyway. I learned a lot
about rich people. I learned a lot about people from
around the world, and I think the palette I've developed.
People always say glass Note is a very international label. Well,
the taste buds were cultivated there because I was listening
(13:00):
to music from Brazil and from Germany and Italy. I've
never identified as an American record executive. I have more
in common with the UK and Europe that I do
as ex Yeah, and I think it's the d n
A of an American and the culture growing up with
an American is completely different. You grow up in America,
you have so many fields of influenced interest and distraction.
(13:23):
In the UK, you still are born and bred listening
to music. When I came up in the industry in
the late seventies and early eighties, I got to witness
a lot of black music, a lot of very important
soul and disco music Philadelphia, Washington, Virginia, North Carolina, driving
around those areas, and I got to go to your
neck of the woods. When I got a little more
(13:44):
advanced and went to Mississippi and Georgia, and when release
day happened for the new albums of the new singles.
People needed to have their Earth Wind and Fire and
their James Brown record. You know, it's just a way
of life. You needed your music, and that stopped in America.
It's broader now out because of streaming and because of
what you've done, Bob, making music more accessible for people.
(14:04):
But in those days you had to have your music.
And I find that in places like England, music is
much more necessary to the way of life. You know,
in the order when you put food, video games, film, fashion, gossip,
all that stuff. Was there something about worldliness that you
got there that you think you still use today. Was
there something about exclusivity which you think you used today? Yes?
(14:28):
So firstly, the genesis of the club. He figured out
what makes the rich tick, how to charge them, how
to seat them. What makes the rich tick? Well, I
think it's a club that travels with each other around
the world and also disposes of things very quickly, so
you have to keep up. Whether it's the Hampton's, whether
it's Malibu, whether it's just odd, it's just a way
(14:51):
of knowing how to cater to people, and it's the
ability to turn people away. Every business. The most powerful
word is not yes, it's no. And at think it's
great for an artist manager to say no. It's great
for a radio station to say too many spots. It's
great to say no. And I think that exclusionary policy
is what turns people on. It makes you want to
(15:12):
go more. Also, two things were going on at regime's
in that era. That's when it was truly fun and
truly frivolous and open. That stopped like a two. That's
a major portion of New York culture and society and
obviously around the world. Also, and I think affluence changed.
You could not get into a lounge of an airport
(15:33):
in those days. You dressed up to go to an airport.
Today everybody flies. Everybody can get into the points and
frequent flyers stuff, So affluence has changed. Access has changed.
I was witnessing the last of an era of exclusivity
of people that traveled together all year round, and jets
set meant something to them. They all knew each other.
And that changed because you had tech people all of
(15:55):
a sudden, and fashion people and music people making a
lot of money. And today's richest of rich are the
tech people who are dominating that. And then I unders
did in regimes they wouldn't be interested in fifty four.
Just hold on a second, because we've got so much
more to talk about. We'll be back after a quick break.
(16:17):
Welcome back the Math and Magic. So let's jump a
little bit the late nineteen seventies. You jumped to Sam Records,
Sam White's label. He would become your father in law,
and you started in promotions. I mean, here you are.
You knew all about music, have no but everything. You
may have known me or people may know me as promotion.
But we had to mix the record, edit the record.
(16:38):
I learned how to do business affairs. We did everything.
So that was good for you to be at a
small label to learn it all. The most important thing
do you think you used that today? With every day?
Every day? I use it because I'm on top of
the business affairs, the deals. I don't enjoy doing them,
but I know about it. You have to do budgets,
you have to get the publishing business down and understand
the copyright of the song, the value of it. I
(17:00):
was very talented in the studio and quite proficient, but
I didn't enjoy the solitude of the studio, how cold
it was, the food, the dysfunctional hours, because I was
really mixing a lot and editing a lot. I'd walk
at at three o'clock on a Sunday and it would
be bright sunshine, and I didn't know what time it was.
I didn't think that was gonna be good for my life,
so I stopped doing studio work. Well, you sort of
(17:21):
made your name as the promotion person, sort of managed
to make a record happen back in the heydaya NDS
And I'll take people back a little bit before consolidation.
Chris Wright Terry Ellis had an amazing indie Chrysalis Records.
How did you get there? So the man that was
running the company was a guy named Jack Craigo. He
was a president of the company. We had a lot
(17:41):
of success at Sam Records. The first two records that
we signed that went to Columbia where Gary's Gang and
John Davis and the Monster Orchestra. They both went gold.
So Columbia Records hired myself and Sam Records to promote
and market Santana Records, Barbara Streisan Records, all these disco
records they were putting out because we knew what to
(18:02):
do in the twelve inch market. Tell people what a
twelve inches, oh twelve inch vinyl is one song that
has an extended mix, extended by time and extended by
the vibe and the deep mixes of it. And the
biggest personalities in those days were the DJ remixers Tom Moulton,
Tom Savarese, John Luongo, Jelly Bean. I mean, these are
the characters Jim Burgess. They could make or break a record,
(18:24):
and if you were smart enough, you saved all yours
because there're worth a lot of money. I still use them.
Do you still have them? So you go on this
promotion track not A and R. Was it really just
the studio that you didn't want to spend all that
time late night? Or was it there is something special
about making these songs come to life? No, I was
too good at it. I had a passion burning, and
I had gotten out of the studio where the first
(18:47):
couple of records that I loved at Chrysalis, war Spandau Ballet, Ultravox,
and there was a record by fun Boy three. I
took the records out of the studio or from the
imports and brought them to my friends that I had
met over the years, particularly Frankie Crocker at w b
LS he played them all. He broke true by spandol ballet,
(19:08):
and to have a black DJ breaking UK music that
had soul in it, I thought it was just natural.
They thought I was a genius because I was getting
all these records played. And then I drove to Philadelphia
brought him a W D A S. Because that's who
played all the Sam records was all black radio stations.
And then I went to w h u R in Washington,
(19:29):
d C. And then of a sudden, kiss came in
w k Y S. But I went to basically black
radio stations and they loved the music and they played
all the music. And that's how we took spanned Out
Ballet up the charts. Until kfr C in San Francisco
played spanned Out val A would never have gotten out
of that, and then it went popping. I knew nothing
about promotion. I think the lesson here is the innocence
(19:50):
of it was. I went in because I believed in
the music, and I knew real relationships with people that
trusted me because I went to the clubs with them,
whether with Studio fifty four or the Paradise Garage. We
listened to music together A few nights a week. So
when I said to them, I think this would work,
and then everybody got hip to it, and all of
a sudden, they bring in the Clash and they're bringing
(20:12):
R and B, R and B and dance Radio are
breaking all these cool bands, which was wild, which I
guess it would call today alternative music, but it was.
It was passion. You went on to the majors, you
expanded your role to run labels, You worked with all
the big names. Got two or three takeaways from that
of somebody today. What lessons did you learn there that
(20:34):
you think are relevant people today they are thinking about
music and musing marketing. Don't do it. Stay away. We
were bought, merged or consolidated three or four times in
my career and it was very frustrating. You know, I
never wanted to leave Chrysalis. If I could stay with
Chris Wright and work my way up to becoming president
CEO and staying there for my entire career, I would
(20:54):
have moved to England and have done that. But they
sold it d m I. When we created sp K,
it was most magical independent label in the world. In
less than three years to have Vanilla Ice, the Ninja Turtles,
Wilson Phillips, Blur, Jesus Jones, the beginnings of Oasis, John Sacada,
all on one label in two and a half years.
(21:14):
It's unheard of. They sold it who they sell it to?
A m I so twice. I'm under thirty five years old.
This is happening. And then Doug Morris and I started
this label called Rising Tide and that got folded in
and became what is today the great Dominant Universal Records,
and so many of my colleagues and proteges are still
there and it's thriving. But I was a fish out
(21:36):
of water when I had to move into those situations.
What didn't you like about it? The human resource train.
If you gave me of my day or week doing
A and R and creative and promotion and marketing and
artist development, I would be very happy. My job went
from sixty to seventy human resource between budgeting and things
that had nothing to do with music. And there are
(21:58):
people that do that much better and enjoy that, and
I give them a lot of credit. I wasn't cut
out for that. I'd rather be with the artists and
musicians I've been in the last few days to Copenhagen
to see Mumford and Sons. I'll be a bottle rock
to see the Teskey Brothers this weekend. They can't do that.
They would not know the names of the people in
the bands, the lead singer or the guitars. They don't
know the producer. I need to know that stuff because
(22:20):
that's what I love doing. So let's jump to today
and the marketing. The total sponsorship business today is about
twenty four billion dollars, but only about five or six
of that is spent against music sponsorship. Sports gets most
of it. Two great passion points in America, sports and music.
You and I would argue music is the biggest passion point.
Why do you think marketers are missing the message that
(22:43):
not spending more on music as their path to connecting
with the consumer. So I think it's catching up when
you see valuations of both music companies publishing companies. But
now the value of an I Heart, the value of Spotify,
the value of the Apple Music, YouTube music. You see
what Telco's value the music input, how it gets you
(23:04):
on a subscription model or a free model. So I
think we were undervalued there. I think you had the
wrong people talking to the wrong people with relationships. Sports
agents and sports marketing was done earlier and more sophisticated
and had a lot of expertise representing people. Music people
(23:24):
didn't evolve. We lost fifteen years as a business because
people were fearful of streaming and what napster and that
was all about. So we lost fifteen years of business.
We've caught up very nicely. I want to do a
quick aside here. In the days that everyone wanted to
shut down Napster, you were about the only person in
the music industry saying, wait a minute, that's our future.
(23:44):
How did that feel to be the lone wolf? And
by the way, today it turns out, of course you
were correct. Yeah, I mean it was awful because my
theory to my bosses were which restaurant, which club, which scene?
Would you rather go to the one where there's a
few million people now they are stealing, they are sharing,
they are pirating, Yes I know that. Or would you
rather go to the record stores where then where a
(24:05):
couple of hundred thousand people I'd rather be with a
few million people were And that's what my three children
were talking about. Is this new thing I actually don't
know how to use it, they just kept talking about it.
I think we did ourselves a disservice as a business
by not going to the table with those early Shawn
Fanning people and Sean Parker people and negotiating and finding
a way to make it work or emulate it legally. Instead,
(24:28):
we were clinging onto this life raft called the CD
and the cassette, which was foolish because it's going to
go on without you anyway. The professionalism of music people
with something to be desired, and now you have this
relationship of great artists, great brands. I was on a
plane reading the Financial Times about Rihanna's new line with
LVMH the fenty line. I mean, that couldn't happen years ago.
(24:52):
I remember the first time our business got wind of
you know, Jessica Simpson did some stuff early on with
some of the mass marketers. Or you saw itam in
water with baseball players, actresses and fifty cent and you
said wow. And I'm sure Interscope was saying, like, we
didn't get a piece of that vitamin water thing. I
think you got a hundred million dollars for that when
they sold for two or three billion dollars to the
(25:14):
soda company. I think we've caught up. We have a
long way to go. I think we as a business
have always undervalued our perception and our representation of the
value of music. And I think what's happened with streaming
and what's happened when you do your shows Bob in
Las Vegas or in Florida, or you do the Jingle
bowls is everybody sees the scope and size and breadth
(25:39):
of music and how it influences in the world Madonna
most recently at Eurovision in Israel. When you see the
influence of Indian music, Brazilian music, African music, the most
dominant music on YouTube is Latin music, and I think
we know more about that right now. So you have
more professional representation, you've got more professional branding people. I
(26:00):
think we're just scratching the surface with the value of music,
of what it could mean, because all we knew was
a business was a soundtrack. And now the power of
a brand using musicians and songs, it's very high. Brands
often say they want to be part of culture, they
want to make culture. How do you think that fits
into this? How do they use music to put themselves
(26:21):
squarely in the center of culture? Well, the sponsorships of
showing up at festivals shows. You know. So years ago
when the Rolling Stones had that, I think it was
jo Van it was pronounced perfume or or cologne sponsoring that,
people said how could they do that? And then Bob
Dylan doing I think it was a victorious secret commercial
or something like that. It's it's the one for Chrysler. Yes,
(26:43):
it's the machic Phoenix. When they did the nineteen o
one did the Catallac commerce, it was romantic, it was beautiful.
The synergies there. So I think we've unleashed value and
we have unleashed creativity and a really smart brand knows
look at what Jimmy Ivan and Dre did with the
head phones athletes and musicians. You identify with them that
(27:03):
marriage of sports, of brands of music. Smart people got
together and realize the value of it. Well, you know
you've talked about Phoenix, You've done things with Phoenix, You've
done it with Mumford where you are not afraid to
put it in the marketing mix. How do you think
about using marketing and other marketers and other brands to
help your acts and to give them additional exposure. So
(27:26):
we're probably one of the purest companies when it comes
to the use of our artists or music. We filtered
out a lot of requests. We turned down probably nine
seven percent of requests where I would say a major
label would probably accept and ask the artists to do
it first. Most of our artists write their own music.
That separates us from I would say, you know, most
(27:49):
of the record business who are getting other songwriters to
come in. So our self contained artists have a lot
of authenticity and a lot of integrity. So when they
do decide to do a film, or to do a
answers or to do something with a brand, it's been
very very well thought about, and they actually work with
the brand to make it work for their lifestyle and
(28:10):
the road that they want to travel, which is why
we're a difficult company to deal with. But when you
do get us to do something, it comes out great authenticity.
It's authenticity and it's purity. I think it's better for
the brand. So let's jump to a topic near and
dear to my heart, yours too. Radio it's been at
the heart of what you do, what I do, if
it's certainly at the heart of music marketing and always
(28:32):
has been, still is today. Eight percent of consumers and
even of Spotify users say the main way they discover
new music is FM radio. In the days of the LPs,
consumers heard a song on the radio or the DJ
talk about it, and when I bought it. Today they
hear it, they stream it. Things really haven't changed that much.
What is radio and why is it so central to
(28:55):
all types of music marketing? How do you use it?
It's such a personal medium. I radio as being a friend,
as being your warm hug. That you get the answer
if you asked a hundred record executives, music executives, writers, producers,
artists out of a hundred will say to you, the
first time I heard my song on the radio. You
(29:16):
listen to Rolling Stone documentaries they talk about the radio.
You know, it's a now and it's a verb, it's
an adjective, but it's personality. It's your friend. It is
something that greets you in the morning my alarm clock,
not because I'm here with you, bob ze because it's happy. Well,
it's a level of talent on the air because it's
evolved since the z Morning Zoo started and I grew
(29:38):
up with this radio station with my kids. But it's
the level of talent and preparation, the work. I know
that I'm getting a very expensive product. This is not
a casual bunch of people. These are highly trained people
who were sleeping when you were partying last night, preparing
for a great show. They're entertainers. They're passionate about the music.
(29:58):
They front and back and down a record. You have
to get that. You hear the saliva coming out of there.
You hear the disappointment, you hear the frustration. You hear
all kinds of stories about sports, weather, news, tragedy, miracles,
elections in context with great music and great rotation. So
the endorsement of a radio station, the support that plays
(30:20):
it a lot, means that there's something going on. I
can't think of how to break an artist or a
record without radio in tandem with streaming. I think streaming
is very key as an early indicator or a late indicator.
But you must have radio. You know, it's very rare
that you get to Madison Square Garden or the headlining
(30:41):
of a festival, whether it's Lallapalooza or Glastonbury without radio.
I'll give you a scene in Copenhagen. I went to
a restaurant that blew my mind. My wife and I
really push ourselves culturally to do great things. So before
we went to see Mumford and Sons in Copenhagen Thursday night,
we got to go to Noma. How could you get in?
Because and he heard me on an interview once and
(31:02):
was inspired. One of the co owners and managers heard
it and invited me a year ago. Lucky. So I'm
very lucky, and I pinched myself. We get to Noma
and we're clicking. There are twenty four different chefs working there,
twenty four different nationalities helping us. And this one guy
comes over. I said, where you from? He says, hey, mate,
from Australia. And I start rattling off my successes. I've
(31:23):
got my early days of ice House and Johnny diesel On,
the divinyls that I hit him with, Mansion Air, the
temperature rap flight facilities, the Teskey brothers, it's blank, nothing
going on. My wife said, wow, that was like cold.
I'm on the way to the men's room and I said,
my wife thinks you're a hip hop head. He said,
I am. I said, well, you know, we broke childish gambino. Oh,
(31:45):
now you're talking. He said, I'm getting married. I'm gonna
march down the aisle just so into you. And he
has the wrong artist and I said, no, that was
to Mia and he did it on Triple J radio.
He comes back to the table and he said, you're right.
It was Triple J Radio. Why I first heard that song.
So it was radio connecting us at this moment of
a song that he did as a cover song when
(32:07):
he was in Australia, and that was a big moment.
So again radio came up. The lady that served us
our coffee, where are you from? She said, I'm from Kent.
I said, Kent, England. I said, we just signed most
of wild She said you did. I heard them in
the radio. So this is a meal in Copenhagen and
I'm dealing with Australian about radio and a UK person
(32:28):
about radio. The connection. Someone said to me the other day,
interviewed me as a college kid, what was the turning
point of glass? Note? When did you know? Because my
whole conversation with him was the fear of going out
of business, that fear of getting up on Monday morning
or Friday nights, whatever it was, and thinking we couldn't
stay in business, and I still have that fear. By
the way, Bob, I'm sure you do too. Every entrepreneur,
(32:49):
every owner goes through it daily and it's a great anxiety.
And I loved living on the edge like that. So
my moment of exhale, my moment of validation, was a
phone call from z one Ndred that we're adding The
first record we ever released was Full for You by
Secondhand Serenade. I was driving on the North Fork thinking
we're going out of business, and that phone call came
(33:10):
in and I realized, we're here to stay. That's a
real story, so let's go here to stay. The music
collection has clearly moved to streaming and subscription, but not
all the way. They're still CDs out there. Actually, the
funny thing is more people listen to c D in
the car than they do their streaming service. Will c
D survive in a diminished role or does it go
away like eight track tapes? The problem is cars. I
(33:32):
have a car, and one of the reasons I do
not trade it in because I have a CD player
and the team at Glassnoe makes me I do homework
every weekend, and it's a CD without knowing who the lawyer,
the agent, the manager, the producer is and I put
it on repeat and I listened to music. Maybe I'm
old fashioned that way. I think the CD is going
to subside like the download stores and go away. I
(33:54):
think vinyl will not go away. Vinyl is fine. The
country music scene of CDs is doing well. I just
got back from Germany about a month ago, and if
it's the first time I've seen a softening of that
physical market, Japan is about to turn, I think into
a streaming market. What percentage of glass note is physical copy? Oh?
Probably now? And as the hits get bigger, lower many records.
(34:18):
We never put anything physical out never, so all marketers
love their product to be the thing. I was fortunate
enough to hit it with the Gang at MTV in
the eighties, a O. L. In the mid nineties, Google
and Facebook had Benett I Heart visit with radio. But
you do it again and again every time you build
a new hit. It's the thing for a period of time.
(34:40):
Brands would like to know, how do you do that? Well,
you have to do less than more and not just
put you know, Frisbees and plates up in the air
is an example. We're breaking an artist now are helping
break an artist around the world named Jade Bird. And
her manager had come to me four or five time
in the last few years and we just didn't feel
(35:02):
that would be the right home for his artists. And
he's a very very important manager. He's got hits with
Tom O'Dell and he's got hits with Liam Gallagher and
Plan b and Jess Glynn and this is an a
plus manager. But we heard something in Jade Bird, a
UK artist. We heard some music that we thought we
could really take to the top, particularly in North America,
(35:22):
but also in other markets like Germany and Australia and Scandinavia.
The second thing is we met her and you meet her.
I was not there at the beginning when Scott was
shed A met Taylor Swift. I was not there when
the Atlantic people met ed Sharon. But this is the
same drive, that same crazy ambition that I of the
tiger makes life really better when someone works harder than
(35:43):
you and they're driven as Elton John was, what Mick
Jagger was, or John Lennon or Prince or you know
John Legend. These artists are different, They just different. Those
two factors. Her talent and her ambition came in. So
for a marketer, I would say to you, if you're
getting behind something, believe even it. Believe it has longevity,
it has authenticity, and it will stand the bad weather.
(36:06):
I know there's gonna be cloudy and rainy days in
Jade Bird's career. We all have them, but her talent
will rise to the top as a Casey Musgraves did,
as a Brandy Carlile did, as Ed Sharon did. So
I'm with her to go all the way around the world.
If we're gonna be listening to this podcast in two years,
you're talking about a superstar that will be headlining all
(36:28):
over the world on festival stages at arena's. It's gonna
happen for her because she has two D and thirty
songs in her arsenal that have never been heard, and
she has that thing that Adele had. She's different because
it's Americana folky rock music coming out and like of
a twenty one year old. But she's from England. But
(36:50):
people said we'd never get the banjo and the kickdrum
played by Mumford and Sons. By the way, a banjo
and zoo who would have imagined right. So I think
for a brand to take a lesson from this is
when something is different, but it has to be real,
it has to be quality, it has to transcend. Those
are the brands that I would get behind. And I
(37:10):
do social science research every day of my life. It's
my ability to walk into a radio station or a
restaurant or a clothing store and sniff it out and
say that is the place to be. I had that
feeling at NOMA Thursday night, just getting out of the car.
The way we were greeted, you knew you were in
somewhere special. Those are the products you get behind. And
that's why I think there are dominant executives around the
(37:33):
world at the LVMH's and the carrings and the I
hearts that by the best of the best of the best.
You have to be willing to walk away from a
B and in this era, i'd walk away. I didn't
say this ten years ago. I think you need to
walk away from an. They don't stream, they don't make
it anymore. What I learned when I turned thirty or
thirty five was you cannot fix it in the mix.
(37:55):
You can't fix a marriage, you can't fix a movie.
It's not on the cutting floor. It just isn't. As
I get olver, I think people try to fix things,
you know, the expressions, remix it, master it differently, edit
it differently. You can't. The story is not there, the
essence is not there, the emotions not there. We tend
to glamorize and romanticize A minuses and B pluses to
(38:17):
make them better than they are. They're not. Some things
are better than others. That's it. That's it. And the
more we admit that because you spend as much money
on an as and today there's less return. We had
a business in the eighties, it was expecially we used
to ship records golden return, platinum or vice versa. We
could put them in the windows. We could, you know,
(38:39):
kind of game it. Yeah, but you can't do that anymore.
Work harder, work harder for a's and a pluses. So
we end each episode by going back to math and magic.
So in your experience, you've seen a lot of people.
Who's the best mathematician, you know, that best analytical person
(39:00):
you've met in your career. So everything in my life
has happened by showing up. Sofia Coppola is married to
the lead singer of Phoenix and Sophia, and Toma invited
us to the opening at Lincoln Center of a show
called Mozart in the Jungle. So I showed up. We
went into the wrong room, and who's there. Jeff Bezos.
He funded this show. And he's there and I start
(39:22):
talking to him. He's asking me about music marketing, very
similar to you. He sounds very much like you. Do
you know him? Well, okay, you remind me of him,
and vice versa. I got so much out of that
conversation of what he was about to do in music,
and now that I've gotten to know his head of music,
Steve Boom. They are so good at what they do
in data and analytics, in math, catering and learning about
(39:46):
the customer. I know I have my heart through my Alexa.
So we buy an Alexa from my mother in law,
who's not a child, and she's living in Florida and
she has her Alexa and she starts Sinatra, this one,
that one. She's now getting solicited through her Alexa on
concerts appearances, and she said, I'd love to have tickets
(40:06):
for this. She orders her cars. So he's figured out
my mother in law. He's figured out my wife, by
the way, So he's the mathematician. He's a genius. So
who's the greatest magician you've known? That show person that
has that just sixth sense of how to make everything exciting.
The Glass family were huge fans of everything Kanye West.
(40:26):
A magician is maybe a disrespectful word for him. It's
a compliment. It's a good okay. So I met him.
I founded an organization called life Beat many years ago
with Bob Caviana, who unfortunately passed away. I got to
meet him then and then uh he donated a vesper
through a radio station promotion. We did his touching fashion
and culture. I love following him and not a coincidence,
(40:49):
not irony, but he marries into this family that is genius.
You call the magicians the Chris Jenna d n A
tree is unbelievable. They're billionaires in that tree with Kylie
and all the Kardashians and the genders. So again you
may think that's superficial, but I'm fascinated with their ability
to grab the imagination of people. That's not a fifteen
minutes of fame. That's something else. I love it. Today
(41:12):
we've gone, Jeff Bezos all the way to Kanye West.
Mathematician magician Daniel Thanks, thank you, thanks for listening. I'm
Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much
(41:35):
for listening to Math and Magic, a production of I
Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special
thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent,
which is no small feat. Nikki Etre for pulling research
bill plaques, and Michael Asar for their recording help, our editor,
Ryan Murdoch, and of course Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel
(41:55):
Mango and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears.
Until next time,
Host
Bob Pittman
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