Ep. 05: Whitetail Gear with First Lite's Greg Farrell

This week on Gear Talk, Jordan and Janis are joined by First Lite's Whitetail product manager, Greg Farrell. They take a deep dive into all the features of First Lite's newest whitetail gear. If you're a deer nut, you're not going to want to miss this one. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
All right with us. Today we have Greg Barrel of
First Light. He's a white Tail product manager, and we're
going to dig into some new white Tail gear coming
out soon. Thanks for coming on, Greg, Yeah, thanks for
having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, what's new? What's coming
up coming up soon for the white Tail line? Well, um,

(00:34):
a few exciting additions. For two, I would say, most notably,
you know, something we've been working on for gosh over
three years now, um, is going to be the addition
of windproof membrane to our Solitude franchise of gear. Moving
that same membrane, which we can you know, talk more
about the kind of the tech and the exciting part

(00:56):
around that, but moving that into the Sanctuary franchise as well. Um.
And then we have some some pretty um exciting you know,
more active insulation pieces transitional layering pieces that we would
call them in both the source which is kind of
the white tailor's puffy jacket, if you will, and then
um also the Origin Hoodie, which is kind of a

(01:19):
you know, you're tried and true fleece mid layer you know,
another active insulation mid layer piece. UM. So yeah, that's
those are kind of the big hitters. For one, are
those going to be available. They're all available as of now.
There you go, we know what's what's coming down. Well,
well it's all available. Now let's dive in and talk
a little bit about what what it is. And I

(01:41):
think we should go talk about the windproofness of these,
the Solitude and the Sanctuary. I guess, like, tell me,
first of all, why wasn't the old Solitude and Sanctuary windproof?
That's a great question. So UM, you know, both of
those pieces UM and our original iterations, we would call

(02:02):
them highly wind resistant, and they were kind of wind
resistant UM by nature because of the makeup. There are
multiple layers of both textile and insulation, and as you
start to you know, layer those things put them on
top of each other, you're inherently creating a barrier for
things to pass through. UM. However, we have always listened

(02:23):
to customer feedback, We've always listened to you know, our
team's feedback, and found, especially in the Solitude franchise, that
just wasn't quite enough, which let us, you know, into
our search for how do you make UM a piece
like the Solitude not only windproof, which is really easy
to do. It's really easy to make piece windproof. But
where it gets where it gets hard, is how do

(02:44):
you make it windproof and quiet um Because inherently a
most windproof membranes, which is what you would use to
make it windproof, would be noisy. Correct. Yeah, so most
windproof membranes because they're they're they're a very shut down fabric,
which means the weave is really tight um or they
have some type of you know, post uh, we've finishing

(03:06):
done to them. Like if you think of a traditional
puffy jacket, you know, they're always kind of shiny um.
That's like a sea is what they call it. So
they essentially take a hot iron pressed on top of
the fabric. It melts the surface of it. Um makes
it a little more crispy, if you will, But it's
basically plugging all the pores, which is why it's windproof. However, Okay,
but we're talking more now about like the exterior fabrics,

(03:29):
not so much like a membrane inside of the jacket.
They're basically the same thing, right, So when somebody's putting
a windproof membrane into a into a jacket, it's not
dissimilar from most of the like the extr fabrics that
you would see on like a puffy jacket. Really mh.
But now you're gonna get a confused. But the exterior

(03:54):
of a jacket is not usually like a breathable lamb
in it or whatever they call it, right, Well, it depends, right,
So if you look at like um, like a waterproof
breathable for example, so a rain jacket that is inherently
windproof because it's waterproof, so it's it's shut down enough
that if water can't get through, wind's not going to

(04:14):
come through either. Now, the process of making a piece
like that, you're stacking layers of fabrics or membranes together.
You're such a gluing them together. Right at a very
high level, like simplistic way of thinking about it, You're
you're building a sandwich out of these different materials um.
But in like an outerwaar a piece like the Solitude
for example, you know, which we originally started talking about.

(04:37):
Most of the time, you know, people are accomplishing windproofness
and a jacket like that by putting you know, what
we call a membrane. But it's basically just a layer
of fabric that has those same windproof um capabilities inside
of that garment. So we call it technically a hanging membrane,
so it's sewn in into your sandwich. Try to give

(04:58):
a face fabric. You have insulation, you have this other
quote unquote membrane or other piece of fabric that's windproof,
and you have a liner and you put those together
in a configuration where you're trying to trap as much
heat as possible to keep yourself warm, and you're also
keeping the wind from coming through that garment. And yeah,
typically they're loud. So normally to get things windproof, like

(05:20):
I said, you know, you have to do some type
of finish that inherently makes it loud, or the type
of the way the fabric is actually put together. You know,
from the fiber level, it's done so in a way
that it's noisy because it's so it's so tightly woven,
or the nature of the fibers themselves, right, depending on
what they are, um, they're just a louder material in

(05:41):
order to get that windproof nows. So it's really kind
of the you know, it's it's the unicorn, right, like,
how do you get something to be windproof but not
have a bunch of noise added to the garment When
you added in there. Yeah, because anybody can just wear uh,
you know, like a slicker exactly, and it could be
completely wind roof, but it's gonna be hard hard to
draw your bow on a on a buck and that

(06:04):
thing exactly. And where it gets even worse is when
those garments get cold. Right, Typically when things get cold,
they get crunch here, right. Windproof membranes or textiles typically
do the same thing. So that's really the you know,
the hard nut to crack, and why it's taken us
as long as we did. I mean, it would have
been really easy just to grab a membrane off the

(06:24):
shelf and throw it in that piece. But I know
both of you guys have used the solitude before, and
I think I would hope you'd agree. It's it's extremely quiet.
I mean, that thing doesn't make any noise, right, So
how do we maintain that quiet nature of that piece
but yet add the windproof technology to it? Okay? So
how did you do it? So? You know, we started
with kind of these traditional membranes and just started plucking away,

(06:47):
trying different weaves, trying different densities, trying different finishing techniques.
You know. So we talked about like the cr A technique.
It's like, you know, if you see a of fabric,
what can you do to it after that? For example,
like you know kind of like sand master or brush
it to rough it back up right, because the more
loft of fabric has, the quieter it's going to be.
And we just started chipping away. It's like, okay, this works,

(07:08):
this doesn't you know, use a finer fiber, finer fibers
of you know, when you build a fabric out these fibers,
the finer they are, the quieter they normally are. One
of these. These fibers are mostly like a nylon fiber.
Nylon Paul's yeah, I mean depending on the membrane you're
talking about, they vary um and just you know, tried
one variable at a time. It's like, okay, this finer

(07:30):
fiber created a quieter membrane. Great, that's one step in
the right direction. You know, adding some type of brushing
to it um or or blasting to it after you
know it was c or a Great, that's quieter. Let's
put these two things together up. You know that didn't work.
Back to the drawing board and just piece by piece
by piece we worked with um you know, that textile manufacturer,

(07:51):
and it took a couple of years to get to
a point where we were happy with the windproofness and
we were happy with the noise. So can you say
you were working with that matter. Yeah, yeah, it's it's
that's not something we would necessarily share with the world. So,
but you but that that's cool that they would work
with you for that long because so they didn't have

(08:14):
a product, but they're like, okay, we'll try to make
what you're looking for. And so you guys just kept
going back and forth and finally they came up with it. Yeah,
And I mean they had a ton of options. Right
when we first went down this road, they had a
whole deck of windproof membranes. You know, they're very used
to working with high end outdoor apparel companies. They have

(08:37):
other companies they work with in that high end outdoor
space that use those other membranes. Just for us, we
we couldn't. We had to we had to dial in
the noise component of it, and that wasn't something that
you know a lot of people ask for. Um, you know,
even in like Western like you don't want to be
if you're a Western hunter, you don't want to be
super loud, but the noise just doesn't matter as much,

(08:59):
right because you're not typically as close to these critters. Um,
it's a different you know critter, it's a different pursuit,
so it's a little less important. Where for the white
tail guy or gal it's paramount like noises, you know,
one of the most important things. So tell me if
when when you guys had those early iterations and you
guys would put it into a jacket and put it on,

(09:21):
how how would that noise um present itself? Like what
did it sound like if you had where you're like, man,
this is no good. But what what like what was
it like? Because you were still like wearing a soft,
puffy solitude jacket, but inside there was this like yeah,
I mean was it like saran rap inside your jacket?
I mean it can present itself in a number of

(09:42):
different ways. So you know, one of the noise issues
we run into is like, yeah, like you think about
like a Frido's or like a Derrito's bag rapper, right
as you kind of manipulate that thing in your hand
when you're trying to open it or you're grabbing chip
side of it, has that crinkly, crunchy noise to it.
So so membranes when you put them, even though you're
putting them inside of a soft, puffy jacket, that noise

(10:04):
is still you know, penetrating through the other textiles and
you're hearing it. The other issue that you can run
into UM is like a surface to surface we call it.
So like when you go to draw your bow, the
forearm of your jacket sleeve might rub against the chest
of your jacket right as you're bringing that ball up
or drawing it. And depending on where that membrane is,

(10:25):
because it's a more typically a more rigid or like
bordy um textile UM, as it scrapes against itself or
there's contact there, you can get like a surface to
surface noise as well. So the like from the feel
of the old version of it, I guess to the
new version with the windproof in it. Can you can
you tell a difference, like when you the end user

(10:48):
is going to fuel the outside the untreined gear. No.
I mean if somebody like you know, for example, myself,
I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars with these garments.
If I'm in a room with no other background noise, right,
and it's just me and the two jackets. I could
probably pick out which one was which. But if you
get in the field, there's always a little bit of
ambient noise right leaves, their rustling is a little bit

(11:10):
of wind. You know, squirrels are making noise, whatever birds
are chirping. I can't tell the difference when I get
out in the field, but just touching it you wouldn't
feel difference either. Sweet, So you're just so when you
buy the new jacket, you're just gonna have to trust
greg that's in there because you're not going to be
able to tell well. And the other thing too, write
wind proof is great, especially at those temperatures in which

(11:32):
you're wearing the solitude. If wind is permeating your garment,
it's always gonna make you feel colder than the actual
thermometer is reading. Right, So that's an important aspect for
a garment that's supposed to be worn like the solitude
for example. You know I always tell people like, once
it gets below fifty down to like kind of that
freezing point, you know, that's your sweet spot for that garment.

(11:55):
And in those temperatures, winds matters, right, because a windy
day when it's forty five feels a whole colder than
a calm day when it's forty five. But the other
cool thing about these membranes, um, and the other improvement
that people are going to notice is obviously, if if
the membrane is keeping wind from coming in, it's also
keeping things from going out, right, So that garment is

(12:17):
actually gonna hold more of your body heat. It's going
to protect that, it's going to utilize your own you know,
your body is a furnace, so it's utilizing that heat
that you're producing to actually make the garment warmer as well.
So it's kind of a two fold benefit. Right, you're
keeping wind from coming in, you're also trapping, protecting, holding
more of that heat that your body is generating to

(12:39):
keep yourself warm while you're in the stand. Does it
breathe like? Is it breathable as well? It does breathe,
it's not going to breathe as much right as like
its predecessor. Which that's where those pieces like the source
or the origin. You know that I mentioned that white
Tailor's puffey jacket or those fleece pieces really coming handy
um because it's a one to punch, right, you have

(13:01):
like your active insulation. So when you're walking into the stand, right,
like sometimes people have a long walk in. Sometimes it's short.
You know, in certain parts of the country it's bluff country.
You've gotta climb a little bit elevation. Maybe you're hanging
a tree stand, you're doing like a hanging hunt. During
those activities, your body is generating heat and moisture, right,

(13:22):
is the killer of staying warm. So if you're wearing
a jacket that doesn't breathe really well um to do
those activities, you're gonna soak yourself from the inside out.
And it doesn't matter what you do. You know, as
soon as you become static and you're sitting there, you're
gonna get cold. Where those you know, transitional um or
active insulation pieces, that's what you can wear into the
stand and like that's your outer wear for more mild

(13:45):
temperatures or maybe even the first half an hour that
you're in there, because your body temperature is up, that's
gonna allow that heat to move away from your body, right,
so that moisture moves away from your body. And then
you pair that with a piece like the solitude like
we're talking king about which is the static insulation piece
UM that goes over top. And now what was your
outerwear for your you know, higher exertion activity becomes like

(14:09):
your mid layers. So that's why I was called like
transitional outerwear because it can be both UM and the
combination of those two pieces and a kit is what's
going to keep you the most comfortable, you know, during
a hunt both walk in than the static period of
sitting there right and then your walk out. Yeah, I
would say that, like unless you're just like a super skinny,

(14:31):
just like a like a Stephen ronnella type bony dude, right, Like,
You're not gonna hike in anywhere with the solitude jacket on, right.
You got to know how to use that gear properly exactly.
I mean, if I have let's call it a two
yard walk to a stand that's already set, then I
don't have to hang it. I may walk in with

(14:52):
that jacket and the zipper open right, walking very slowly exactly,
you know. And if I have the bibbs on, I'm
probably have those side zippers all oil. Because what I
don't want to do is I don't want to build
up a bunch of moisture within that clothing system that
can't permeate out, because that's what's gonna make me colder
sooner once I get to the static portion, which is

(15:15):
of a white tail hunt. And man, that's it just
comes down to moisture management, you know. And uh, it's uh.
I think it's still something that a lot of people
are still like learning and figuring out. It's probably something
we'll I'll work on for the rest of my life,
right is just trying to like dial it in because
it just depends on like, yeah, are you gonna do

(15:35):
that two yards in two minutes or maybe you have
time to take twenty minutes and like literally not bring
your body tamp up at all, you know. But there's
I've talked to mountaineers that go up, you know, mountains
in the winter and they're literally wearing one bass player
as you're doing that, because it's like they's they say,
it doesn't matter if I'm gonna get wet from my

(15:56):
sweat or I'm gonna get wet from the rain or
from snow. Like I'm generating so much heat that like
sure if it gets like crazy winding and stuff, you
have to put a shell on, but like that basically
is going to be soaking no matter what, and so
they just like their way to manage it is like
it's soaked, but they're working in it, and as soon
as they stop, they'll actually just take that off and

(16:17):
put on like a dry one or a dry mid
lighter or whatever and then put on their insulation, right,
And that's how they manage it. For hunters, I think
it's a little bit different because you often like that
doing that is too much movement, too much noise. You know,
you have to your system has to be able to
basically work on the go, and then all of a
sudden you get stopped for whatever reason, maybe on your

(16:39):
way to the stand, you know, you run into a
box or whatever, or do you see some eyes in
the dark, and you just have to stand there for
ten minutes and let those deer pass on by. Your
system has to keep you warm for those ten minutes,
you know. Um So anyways, a lot to like all
of us will be figuring that out for some time
to come. But when it's sixty plus first week in November,

(17:02):
it does not make me a happy white tail hunter, no, no,
And it's it's so hit or miss right, like you
get that maybe that's sixty especially, you know, I think
you're spending the first week in November in Wisconsin. Um,
you know, we'll get one of those every three years
where that happens. But man, I tell you what when
that if it is sixty, when that kind of warm

(17:22):
front breaks and it gets cold, But you live in Wisconsin,
so you'll be there for it, be heading home already.
But well, and I think to your point, Yeanhni, I
think it's something that hunters are continuing to try and
figure out, and especially in the white tail space, I
think that concept might be more foreign because our walks

(17:44):
in are typically shorter, we don't have as long of
high exertion periods. But it doesn't make it any less
important right to manage that moisture. And I think that's why,
you know, while wind provadwear is super exciting, I get
almost as excited and more excited about pieces like the
Origin right that like mid layer fleece piece, or the
source jacket like the white tailor's puffy jacket, because those

(18:05):
are pieces that I get to utilize my entire season,
you know, like the beginning of the season, that's my
outerwear they're always with me as I move into the
middle of the season or the even the end of
the season. It's like that's when I'm wearing from the
truck into the stand and I stay super comfortable and dry,
and then I get to really put those outerwear pieces
UM together with them to build this like kind of

(18:27):
bulletproof system that you know, when you're only sitting two hours.
If you do make a mistake and you get wet
and get cold, it's not the end of the world.
You can tough it out, but it's just not as enjoyable.
You're mentally not there as much right because you're thinking
about being cold. Um. You know, it's harder to execute
a shot. So any of those things that can tip,
you know, or change the percentage of your comfort, even

(18:48):
just a little bit, can be a big deal, especially
in the first week in November when you know you
should be sitting in the stand all day going into
like the Sanctuary. Is there a point at what point
would you recommend then people purchase the Sanctuary over the
Solitude UM or transition to that if they are able
to have both pieces. That's a great question. I mean

(19:09):
my cut off as always like right about freezing. So
if it's below you know, thirty two degrees fahrenheit and
I have the sanctuary available, that's what I'm going for. Like,
that's the high. Yeah, that's the high, right, So anything
above that, I don't even touch it. Um however, you
know what I do tell people as well as like,
if you want to build a really versatile system, you know,

(19:31):
if you add call it the source puffy jacket which
we've been talking about, to the solitude, that's essentially bringing
it to the level of the sanctuary. So if you
paired those two pieces together in a kit, it's like
you kind of have that source jacket, which is your
earlier season ottaware piece. You transition to the solitude by
itself for kind of your super Bowl, right that like

(19:51):
rut Ish time and most Midwest states. And then if
you do end upending hunting some late season, you can
pare that back with the solitude to get it to
the level the sanctuary. If you're doing a lot of
late season stuff like consistently sitting twenty and below, you're
not going to be the sanctuary. It's just insanely warm.
It's the best piece out there. But there are some
ways to kind of accomplish that level of insulation with

(20:14):
a more of a system or a kit, right, But
that's kind of always, you know, to answer your original question,
that's kind of always my like, my cut off point
is like below freezing sanctuaries obviously the best bet anywhere
before that, you know, you can kind of use the
Solitude with other basin mid layers to accomplish what you need. Yeah,
that's exactly what I wore last year the day I

(20:35):
killed my buck, because I had a like a wig
bass layer. I had my source jacket and then I
put on once I dried out, you know from my
walk and I had a good walk, Like I thought
it was gonna be like half an hour forty five
minutes and I think it ended up being like an
hour fifteen and uh was plenty warm enough by the

(20:55):
time I got to the tree, which then I had
to you know, put sticks in and climb up into.
So what Yeah, once I dried out, I put my
Solitude on. Was comfy all day. Yeah, that's a super
I mean what you just mentioned is, I mean that's
kind of my go to. You know, that's a really
versatile kit that's going to take up the majority of
your season as a white tail hunter. All right, let's

(21:17):
move on because we gotta we're gonna need to know
more about the source jacket. Um, the fleece. To me,
it's like a fleece. I mean, you can check it out.
It's we've had it out for a whole year now,
right since last of all. Right, the origin just just
spring it came out, just dropped the sprints, right, Okay,
we've been using it for for that long. But it's cool.

(21:39):
It's got like a built in face mask, it's got
the hoodie's got built in thoam loops, it's got little
kangaroo pocket for keeping your hands warm. But to me,
it's not as exciting as a source jacket. So tell me, like,
tell me the build on this source jacket. Yeah, so, um,
it's the white tailor's puffy jacket. Right. Puffy jackets are great.

(22:00):
We all know them because of their warmth and weight ratio,
meaning that they're very light, they're very pacable, but they
provide a lot of warmth, you know, for that smaller,
lightweight package. Inherently, if you think about the characteristics of
a traditional puffy jacket, they're not great for white tail
hunting because they're not super durable UM, and they're loud.

(22:20):
Those are two things that as white tail hunters we need.
We need durability in our gear and we need to
be quiet. So what we did with the source is
solve both of those problems. UM. We built a synthetically
insulated puffy jacket UM and as eight E Grahams of
Primu off gold stretch insulation in it. UM. We used
a really durable face fabric so you don't have to

(22:43):
worry about walking through brush. Um. You know, if you
get caught in a thicket on your way into the
stand in the dark, or you're dragging a deer out
where you're hanging a stand. Um, it's meant to do
all those things. It's gonna hold up to it UM.
So that's where the durability comes in. It's a really
quiet face fabric UM. And then you know stretch insulation,
stretch lining, so you get a piece that can pack down,

(23:06):
you know, pretty small. It can live in your pack
all season. Um, it's your outerwear kind of early season
and more mild temperatures. And then you know, like you said,
yahning in November last year, it's like a solitude goes
great over it when you get into some of those
colder temperatures. So the best way I can describe it
is like it's a quiet durable, you know, versatile like

(23:27):
mid layer in the early season and then or excuse me,
outer wear in the early season and mid layer in
the late season. Where do you because where do you
think it falls sort of on like a wind resistant scale. Yeah,
that's a great question. So you know I was talking
about static versus active insulation. You know, static you want
to trap all of your body heat. You want it

(23:48):
to be shut down because you're not moving, so you
really need to conserve and save all that body heat.
Were like an active insulation piece you wanted to keep
you warm because it's you know, it's cold enough that
you're wearing insulation, but you need it to breathe. Now,
this is really a pursuit specific jacket. I would say,
like if you're a Western hunter, your active insulation needs

(24:10):
to be extremely breathable because you're doing a very high
exertion activity like climbing up a mountain, you know, putting
on a lot of miles. For white tailors, we need
our active insulation to breathe, but not quite as much. Right,
it's almost like it needs to be breathable, but it
still needs to block some wind, it still needs to

(24:32):
be a little bit more shut down. So what we
really did is we didn't target, We didn't try and
build this piece for a Western hunter. We built this
piece to be breathable enough for white tail hunts, but
also be you know, somewhat shut down enough where when
you're wearing it his outerwear, you're not feeling the slightest
breeze come through that piece. So I really call this
like white tailor's active insulation. Like I would agree with

(24:55):
that too, Like where in a Wisconsin I had it
was it worked perfect I did. I did test it,
you know what cat hunting this winner and did some
like mega hikes in it, and definitely, like I could
tell that I was putting more moisture into it than
it could handle, you know, drying out or breathing. As
we say, you know, I can know that it's a

(25:16):
good way to look at like breatheability is basically you're saying,
like how far fast a garment will dry? Is that
safe to say? Um? Because it's just like how much
air will will move through it? Right? And uh, yeah,
so it's like, yeah, I did. If you're gonna go
like still hunting all day and plan on putting like
miles and miles in, I guess it always depends on

(25:39):
just how much you're exerting. Right. If you're not doing
a lot of exertion, it's great, But like if you're
gonna like be like huffing and puffing, like you're saying,
going up a mountain, you probably want to look at
something that's a little more breathable. Right. Well, that's what's
cool about this piece too, because like it was built
for that specific hunter, right, Like this is built for
the amount of exertion a white tail hunter is gonna do.

(26:01):
And like I hunt in western Wisconsin a lot too.
It's you know, driftless area, bluff country, and I can
easily you know, hike up and down a few ridges
in this thing, hang a set in it, and I'm
not soaked through because it's breathable enough for those activities.
And then when I climb into the stand, it's not
gonna let every single bit of breeze come through. It

(26:21):
shuts that down a little bit. Um. It's really you know,
it's built for those activities. Wasn't there like another uh
layer in there, and maybe that's just part of the
premium loft goal, but another layer that actually like reflects
your heat back to you in that jacket, not in
that one. So in that not in that one. No.
So um, there are with you know, certain primu off

(26:44):
instulations or you can just add them in, like what's
called a scrim um. And what that scrim does is
two things, like to not to go too far into
the weeds. But even synthetic installations, they're built like a sheet, right,
So it's all these fibers that are woven together and
you can you know, it comes on a roll. You
can unroll it and essentially looks like a sheet of fabric,

(27:05):
but it's lofted. Um. Even those fibers, they'll migrate through
some textiles, like you know, in your down puffy jacket,
sometimes you get little feathers coming through at the seams
or whatever. Um, when you build a down jacket, you
have to have a downproof textile to keep those feathers
from migrating through. But even synthetic fibers can migrate through textiles.
So if you don't have you know, a textile that

(27:28):
is resistant to that migration, you have to put a
scrim in there to keep those fibers from migrating through,
and a scrim is basically just another layer, another layer. Yeah.
Some scrims like you just mentioned will actually reflect body
heat back to you as well, so you're capturing more
of that. But that gets more into like a static
installation piece, because you don't want to be capturing more
heat when you're trying to do something active in a piece.

(27:52):
Cool nice. Could you roll through those those insulations again
in that source jacket and talk about the Primo off
Gold a little bit more, Yeah, of course. So, um,
you know, basically the sandwich of that is kind of
a durable, um stretched face fabric. Then it's the Prema
off Gold insulation, so it's a prem off Gold stretch,
which is really important because this piece is meant to

(28:15):
move with you and not against you, especially because you're
layering it under other outerwear. You want that piece to
move and stretch so you don't get the like michelin
Man effect where you feel like you can't move your arms. Um,
So that stretch is really really important. The other thing
that is important with stretches because you're sometimes wearing that

(28:35):
as a mid layer and sometimes wearing it as outerwear.
You want to be able to put different amounts of
stuff underneath it, right, So Yanni mentioned that he just
had a wick underneath it. Um. You wanted to fit
comfortably UM and be you know, athletic and trim in
that situation, but you also want to be able to
say where you're wick and then maybe an Origin hoodie
or a Kiln hoodie and still be able to wear

(28:56):
that jacket on top. So that's where the stretch is
really really important in a like that UM, And I
guess kind of just for reference, so there's it's eighty
grams of insulation or a d g s M s
grands per square meter UM. So like the Solitude, for example,
has a hundred UM, the Sanctuary has two hundred. So
if you kind of put it in the spectrum of

(29:16):
those pieces, it's our most lightly insulated piece in our
in the category of white tail insulation. Does it come
in solids? It does not. Killing me Greg, I would
I'm gonna wear a little bit as my as just
the everyday jacket inspector, but you know, if you could

(29:38):
get me one in the gray, I wish I would
wear it even more is my everyday jacket, because I
think that jacket has the capability to because I wear
like basically a lightweight, like a lot of times I
wear the brooks, you know, and to be in something
a little bit softer to the hand, I think I
would like that better. You know, I wear mine a
lot as a everyday pete. Well not the one that

(30:01):
I wear into the woods, but I have one that
I wear is an everyday piece as well. But yeah,
I mean you're definitely towing the casual camel line, right
because we don't have it in solids, But you don't
wear the one you take in the woods because of scent. Correct,
you're pretty hardcore on the scent. I am. I am
very hardcore. Didn't you build build in some pretty specific

(30:31):
sent uh technology into these pieces? Yeah, So most of
our synthetic pieces in the white Tail line um have
what's called a high Q treatment. So high Q is
an anti microbial um. You know, some people have heard
like poly gen um. It's a very similar. So it's
a treatment um that goes onto these textiles and what

(30:54):
it does is inhibits the growth of bacteria. So when
you go out into the few you know, you sweat,
you're perspirating, whether it's actual you know, whether you're sweating
in the liquid form or whether you're putting off you know,
gaseous perspiration like maybe not the liquid form meet. It
creates a moisture rich environment that's good for bacteria to grow.

(31:15):
Bacteria is what inherently causes scent, right, So if you
can inhibit the growth of bacteria, you can limit or
prolong how long it takes before those garments start to smell. UM.
So that's one piece of technology that's gonna help with scent.
The other one is you know a lot of if
you go through and I'm not we don't need to

(31:36):
go through the whole list, but if you're, say you're
on the website looking at white tail pieces, if you
notice anything that's built with a thirty seven point five technology, UM,
that's a fiber that's used to build fabrics that we
build into these technolog or into these garments, and the
thirty seven five fibers essentially what they're doing is um,

(31:56):
they're actually also inhibiting the growth of bacteria or like
the attachment of odor at the particle level. So it's
kind of a one to punch with those technologies. Now,
that doesn't mean these garments are gonna be sent free.
Right at the end of the day, we as human
beings have a sent to us. We smell to animals, right,

(32:17):
and you can never eliminate that. I mean, I'm sure
you guys remember the days of like carbon suits and
things like that, right, Um, And I'm a firm believer
in scent control. I still don't think you can fool
the nose of a mature white tail. You know, if
the wind's blown right at them, they're still gonna smell you.
But I think you can do things to stack the

(32:39):
odds in your favor where maybe if you get like
a questionable wind and he would have picked you up
if he didn't do those things, you know, you might
get away with something. It buys you a second or
two exactly. Maybe that's all you need exact give me
the quick and dirty for your scent control system. Um. So,
first and foremost, it's not getting those garments into contact
with odors as much as possible, so storing them and

(33:02):
sent free containers. You know, I'm not taking these things
on and off in my Do you buy those like
actual like made for white tailors sent free containers. You
just use like a rubber made tote. I actually kind
of made my own, So I took a rubber maid
toe and essentially take like a rubber gasket, UM and
put it around the lid so it keeps air from

(33:23):
moving in and out. UM. So I do that, like
I always keep those in the back of my truck.
They never come in my truck with me. UM. I
always get dressed in the field. So I pull up
to my spot, I'm pulling that bin out of my truck.
I'm getting dressed in the field. UM. And it's just
for me. It's eliminating as many touch points as possible

(33:43):
right where foreign odor could get in contact with those garments. UM.
I do treat my garments with ozone. Ozone OH three
is the chemical makeup of it. It's what you smell
like when it rains. Because I don't know how nerd
do you want to get in science here, but by
basically OH three or ozone, it's UM. It's not a

(34:03):
stable compound because oxygen likes to exist in O two
that's the oxygen we breathe. So NO three molecule basically
what happens like from the scientific standpoint is it doesn't
last very long as an ozone molecule. That's why, like
when it rains, you smell it, right, and then very
soon after you don't smell it anymore. Because what happens

(34:24):
is why do you smell it when it's raining? So
ozone has a like a scent to it, that's kind
of what you smell when it's raining. But why is
it present in the when it's raining. I think it
has to do and don't quote me on this, but
what's happening, especially when there's a thunderstorm and there's lightning,
you're putting energy into a system and it's causing some

(34:48):
of these molecules to bind together that normally wouldn't. I
don't know the exact science behind like the rain storm
or thunderstorm, but I know that something with putting energy
into that system. Three yea, you smell it, rainstorm goes away,
it goes back to being mostly O two. You don't
smell it because one of those auction molecules will come
off of that, right, so you end up with one

(35:09):
O two and one oxygen by itself, which it also
doesn't like to exist as so that's gonna bond to
another oxygen molecule or the same thing happened, right, But
that process of that one oxygen molecule kind of ripping
off O three and becoming O two, right, that one
that's it's like a radical, free radical, I believe it's

(35:29):
what it's called um because it doesn't like to be
by itself. It's trying to bind to things. And that
process of that free radical oxygen molecule, that's what's neutralizing
odors or killing bacteria. So you can use you know,
some people use ozone in their stand like an ozone generator,
and they try and use it to mask their scent. Right.
That's a little machine that goes above them and dumps

(35:51):
oxygen like in the windstream. So some mask their scent um.
But from a like treating of closed standpoint, it's going
to eliminate um or neutralize some of those odors that
might be in your garments. That's another thing. Is that
a wash in No, it's a little it's like a generator.
It's a little electronic machine so you can stick in
the bin with your clothes or or how do you

(36:12):
get it on into clothes? Yeah, Or there's like you know,
there's companies like um Ozonics that make like lockers right
where you can like hang all your clothes in there,
and then there's a bunch of companies that make systems.
I've kind of just made my own, um. So that's
one thing. I typically don't wash them unless they're like dirty,

(36:32):
um from getting blood on them or super muddy or
anything like that. Like I'll wash them maybe once or
twice a season. Um. But the reason for that is
just to basically enhance the performance of a textile. Like
I'm sure you guys have heard, like rainware, it doesn't
work great when it's dirty, right because mud is clogging
the pores and it doesn't allow the garment to work

(36:53):
as effectively. Some of the technologies that are in these
white tailed pieces the same thing. So you want to
keep your gear clean. But for me, that's a touch
point where it's like I have to bring it into
my house, I have to wash it right, so like
it's coming in contact with those other odors, which it's
more important for me to avoid than like having some
a little bit of mud or blood on my clothes.
So I try and limit that to just, you know,
maybe once or twice a season. I'm still on old school.

(37:16):
I still like to So right right now, my whole
solitude kit is in a duffel bag, which is probably
I should probably get a better BN for. But it's
in a duffel bag and there's like a couple of
pine bals and maybe like I don't know, a couple
of dozen oak leaves in it. And then when I
get it to camp that i'll probably I should probably
leave it at camp in Wisconsin, but I always feel

(37:39):
like something's gonna come up. I'm gonna need it out here.
But then when I get there, I put it on
a hangar and we have like a giant, like I
don't know, it's probably sixty by, you know, twenties some
foot deck, but it's covered. I just hang all my
stuff on hangars and then just let that's where it
just lives during the whole hunt. It's like it just
lives out on the deck. We don't cook out there,

(38:00):
no one's smoking these cigarettes, and so the breeze is
just constantly on it, and I just feel like it's
sort of just absorbs the environment around it. Yeah, it
smells like what's there, right, Yeah, I mean the woods
are like ten ft away when it's when it's sitting
there under that deck, you know. Yeah, I mean I
think everybody's got their system, and I'm not by any
means claiming that mine is right. It's just like I

(38:21):
think confidence going into the field is a big thing,
and this is what makes me the most confidence. Like
I'm trying to stack, you know, any little odd in
my favor, because like if you do a couple of
things and each thing maybe changes your odds like one
percentage point, it's like, well, after a while, you're five
percent better, right, and that could give you that extra

(38:42):
second or two seconds, Like you're just talking about, there's
nothing worse man than seeing like a dough, uh pick
up on your either like your trail that you walked
or had a dough two years ago. Walks like she
was coming in just fine, just fine, just fine, And
she literally got within you know, two feet maybe of
the tree I was in and I think she smelled

(39:03):
the step, or she smelled my boot on the step,
I don't know, or maybe she smelled just me climbing
up the tree. But she got so close to that tree,
that's something off the tree she smelled, and it like
I don't know for sure, if it cost me. But
she left and then like ten minutes later, I think
it was the same dough with a big buck behind her.

(39:24):
Is she's getting rutted down below me, and it looked
as though the buck was trying to push her towards me.
But she took a circuitous route and kind of left
the bowl. You know, we're normally I don't see deer moving,
and I just wonder if, like, man, that was it
it cost me. She smelled my step. You know, I've

(39:45):
had him even to where it's like, you know, you
bring four steps into the woods because you're gonna hang
a set and you don't know how many you'll need,
and you'll end up needing three and you make the
mistake of like leaving the fourth one at the base
of the tree. And I've had a dough come in
and like pegg that step at the base of the tree.
And you know, to your point too, it's like filter
off or whatever. But it's incredible. I mean, obviously it's

(40:05):
their best asset in terms of keeping themselves safe. So
all right, transfer pack, about time, Greg, Yeah, we needed
a white tail pack, windproof and white tail pack, right. Yeah,
So this has been another one that's been to your
point a long time coming. We've been building this thing
for over two years now, um, and really we wanted

(40:28):
our foray into white tailed packs to check, you know,
of the boxes for the people that are going to
use it. I think packs are somewhat like boots where
they're specific to people, right, Like everybody has specific needs
or want. Some people want a wide boot, some people
want to narrow boot, you know. Some people want their
pack to be able to carry a tree stand, some
people don't. So figuring out a way where, you know,

(40:50):
we could build a pack that does all of those
things and then you can choose to utilize the features
that are important to you. If you need a day
pack right because you're walking into a pre hung set
or blind and it's not that far functions really well
as that if you're a guy that's you know, doing
a lot of hanging hunts um or a gal that's
running a saddle and you know, taking your sets in

(41:13):
and out every time, like, it's gonna function really well
for that too. So I would say it's it's the
most feature rich white tail pack on the market with
regards to what it can do. It can haul a
tree stand, it can haul sticks, it can haul your bow, UM,
but it can also UM car compartmentalize the stuff that
we as white tail hunters need to bring into the

(41:33):
field to keep yourself organized. UM. And really it was
designed around this process that we all do as white
tail hunters and making that process the most efficient. So,
you know, we pull into our spot, we get our
stuff out of our vehicle, and we're packing that pack
at the truck. Then we go into the woods and
whether we're hanging a tree stand, climbing up in new saddle,

(41:54):
or climb up in an existing set, we have to
get that pack into the tree right and then we
unpack it and then we reverse that process going out.
So what we want to do is design a tool
that was efficient for all those processes, and it was built,
you know, with that order of operations in mind, but
then also something that was a tool that was helpful

(42:16):
in all those situations. Because you can design something that
works really well for getting gear into the field and
out of the field, but if it doesn't help you
when you're in the tree, you know, what's the point
of bringing it in. So something that functioned as well
or as much became as much of a tool for
you while you were in the tree as it was
getting things in and out of out of the woods.

(42:38):
I like it, So tell me it'll carry You'll say
it's It'll carry my sticks in my platform, no problem,
and then inside it will carry my snacks, my coffee,
extra layer. Yep. Can I carry my solitude jacket and bibbs?

(42:59):
You in it? Somehow you can shove. You could squeeze
both your bibs and your jacket into it. It would
be tight. That's probably about max capacity if you didn't
have a lot of I'm gonna put my snacks in
my thermos. So what I would do, and I'm glad
you brought this up is um. There's also a bunch
of molly paneling on there, as well as some other
lashing points, because I like to actually walk in with

(43:21):
my layers not in my pack but outside my pack,
because that way, when I get to my spot, I
can put my layers on and I don't have have
to open my pack until I get up into the tree.
So we have some lashing straps that are attached for
multiple purposes, carrying layers, carrying your bow. But there's also
molly paneling on the sides and the bottom where you

(43:42):
could use like a gear strap UM to attach other
things as well, if you want the pack to be
more modular. Okay, does it have a load bearing hip belt?
It does, so it actually has an internal frame UM.
And one of the problems with you know, a lot
of white tail packs on the market is you can
attach say a bow or a tree stand to the

(44:04):
back of the pack, the outermost portion. But the problem
is you're then putting all of your weight at the
furthest point away from your body, and that pack becomes
really uncomfortable. So what we've done with this pack is
it actually has a back panel with an internal frame,
a load carrying frame, and you can actually remove the
bag from that frame with one zipper. You attach your

(44:27):
tree stand to the actual load bearing portion of it,
which that frame runs into a hip belt, and then
you can reattach the bag very simply. Um, you kind
of create the sandwich around the top of your stand. Yeah,
you can't create this sandwich. So it's like back panel
tree stand pack if you choose to carry one into
the field. If you don't, then that pack just always

(44:49):
lives right next to that back panel. And like I said,
it's one zipper to attach it. So it's not a
bunch of straps. It's not a bunch of you know,
clipping things shoe. It's a U shape zipp or the
is all the way. So if there's a tree stand
in there, though, how does the then close? So once
you so you separate the bag from the back panel,
you know there's straps to attach the tree stand to

(45:11):
that back panel. When you go to put the bag
back on, um, it attaches via a strap system at
that point. I see, So the zipper is really only
engaged when you're not using that function. Yep, exactly, sweet. Um.
But even when you go to the way the pack
is designed, um, and there's some quote unquote load lifters

(45:33):
that are part of the system. Even when you go
to put the pack back on, if you're using a
tree stand carrimo, you still have the ability to connect
those load lifters from the pack to the actual frame.
So all of that weight is being transferred to the
frame and the back panel, which makes it really comfortable
to carry a stand and sticks and gear. You don't

(45:54):
feel like that things constantly pulling your back and you're
fighting against it. Nice, So I got I stand or
maybe for me it would be my my, my sticks
in my platform in there, I get to the tree,
take those out of there. Then is that zipper quiet
enough or I can close that pack back up and

(46:16):
then not spook definitely any deer in the area. And
that's the great thing is once you take those things off.
I mean a lot of times we're at the base
of our tree and what it's dark because we're either
going in or coming out. So all you have to
do is one zipper and that things reattached. You're not
trying to loop straps through. Um, you're not trying to
you know, clip things back together. The other thing that

(46:38):
one of my favorite parts is um. Let's say you're
in tree stand carry mode, right, so you take your
stand off of their You always have all those straps
then that you use to attach that stand to the
back panel. What do you do with those when it's
cold and it's dark. It's always a pain trying to
roll them up, get them organized right, get them back
in there. So we actually built in it's like a

(46:58):
stretch pocket, like a big mess stretch pocket, and all
those straps you can just shove right in that pocket.
You don't have to worry about rolling them up or
lashing them down. So it's really you know, all those
small parts and pieces. It's like, how can we do
this as easy as possible, as quite as possible in
the dark, on my way in her way out right,
And they were just those straps would just live in

(47:21):
that stretched pocket always, so then you're let's not get home.
You gotta then roll it up and talk them away.
That's just how they live. And their color coordinated. So
you have two horizontal straps, two vertical straps, their color coordinated,
so when you do pull them out of that pocket,
you know exactly which one goes to which You're not
trying to figure that out, and they just live there. Awesome, Okay. Next, uh,

(47:44):
this is really important for me is how does that
pack attached to the tree once I'm up in there?
Great questions see if two options UM. Option one, which
is the way I like to use it, is there's
a hanger loop, a reinforced loop on the um lid
of the pack, so basically the top point of the

(48:07):
lid UM. And you can do that in number of
ways you can. I've hung it off of my last stick.
I sometimes bring an extra tree step in or hook
that I screw into the tree. I can hang it
off of their UM. Certain companies UM make like a
strap system, you know, like Tethered has their hiss strap
and hang stuff off. Yeah, that's usually what I do. Yeah,

(48:27):
you can hang it right off of there with the carabiner.
And the cool thing about hanging it from that point
is that it's going to hold your lid open, and
the entire pack hangs off of that lid, so it
essentially turns into like a bucket in the tree, so
the inside of the pack is exposed. You have access
to all of these there's seven internal mesh pockets UM

(48:47):
for keeping stuff organized, so you can get into all
of those things very easily. Essentially just like reaching next
to you into this like bucket if you will UM
or if it's let's say it's you know, ray in
your light, snow and you don't want that precipitation getting
into that pack. There's another very similar hanger loop at
the base of the lid, closer to the back panel.

(49:10):
If you hang it from that, the little then naturally
cover up that bucket to keep your rain or snow
or precipitation out of your gear. That's inside of it.
What's the what's the closure for the lid? It's just
like a side release buckle. Yeah, and that's adjustable too.
So if you have, for like your earlier example where

(49:31):
you want to put your Solitude bibbs and jacket in there,
you can adjust um that lid closure to be as
tight or as loose as you want, so you can
actually add some volume or capacity to that or suck
it in. Right if you're just using as like an
early season day pack and done have much stuff in there,
So it does have some variability, and you know essentially

(49:53):
how much room you have in that thing based off
of you know, how you kind of suck that lid in,
as well as the compression straps on the side ice.
I'm excited to try it. Oh yeah, I can't wait.
Uh what about exterior fabric? I mean you must have
made it quiet, right, Yeah, So the exterior fabric is
actually the same face fabric that you'll see on the

(50:14):
Solitude or Sanctuary or Whitetail catalyst. So we all know
how quiet those pieces are. Your pack is gonna be
just as quiet whether you're brushing up against it. You know,
you're pulling things in and out of it. UM. You
know you're getting into the tree, that pack is essentially
as quiet as your outerwear, which is obviously hugely important
for for us when we're up in the tree, sweet

(50:36):
back to the back to the wind proving real quick, Greg,
are we going to see that in other garments? Yeah?
So right now, UM, as I mentioned, like, you're seeing
that in our outer wear systems are insulated outerwear systems
solitude and sanctuary. UM. But that being said, you know,
we're on a on a long term to your plus

(50:58):
development next cycle and I think you know it is
of utmost importance for me and for us to continue
to explore what other pieces that may be appropriate in UM.
And that's something that's you know, always on on top
of mind, UM, and that we're looking into. But for
right now, UM, it is in basically insulated outerwear. And

(51:20):
the reason for that is it kind of goes back
to what we talked about earlier, like those active versus
passive insulation pieces and time of year. You know, typically
if it's warm enough that you're not wearing a solitude UM.
You know, so it's fifty or above, that wind matters
a little less and being able to dump heat on
your way in because it is warmer matters more, right,

(51:41):
So it's it's choosing the appropriate places to have the
windproofing and the appropriate places to have you know, a
little bit more breathability and moisture management in those garments.
Got I'm gonna be pushing hard for a soft shell
with the with your quiet windproof layer in it, windproof
soft shell. Hmm, I'll add it to my notes. Yeah,

(52:03):
you Matt Derosier's Ben Flandre. You guys aren't gonna hear
the end of it here. Me quit squeaking until I
get to try one of those on, so we'll know
we did our job when he quit squeaking. That's right, perfect, Greg,

(52:26):
thanks so much for coming onto the gear Talk podcast
and tell us all about the brand new, exciting first
Light white tail gear. I'm I'm really appreciative of the
work you've done over there at first Light last few
years in the white tail category. Man, we've, like, I
hear a lot of people saying that they're really stoked

(52:47):
with their first light white tail gear, and uh, it's
all although I don't get to pound it as you know,
in it as much as like Taylor Chamberlain. The little
bit that I've gotten to use it, you know what,
I've probably got thirty days in it, like I've definitely
to have you with it too, So good work, um,
But yeah, thanks for coming by and hopefully all you
listen got to got to learn something, especially about moisture

(53:10):
management and uh breathability and wind proofness. But if there
are other things you want to hear Us Jordan and
I talk about, you can send questions to via email
gear talk at the meat eator dot com. And then
also we have a page on the meat Eator website

(53:31):
which you're just gonna you can either go to the
podcast tab and hover over it and then find gear Talk.
You can just search gear talk. But we're gonna have
a comment section there underneath each episode and there's like
a follow up question from this episode or if there's
just like I said, whatever you want to hear us

(53:51):
talk about or dive into, you know, put your questions there,
comments there, and we'll do our best to answer from
at least hit on them some how. And that will
be the place too that once we start sort of
asking you guys maybe to chip in on some of
this upcoming white tail or any kind of first Light
gear for that matter. Um, that will be the place

(54:13):
where we're going to have this conversation about you know,
what you guys might want to see as far as
like features or pieces of gear that first Light doesn't
offer you yet. So there you go, either gear talk
at the meter dot com or go to the Mediator
website and go to the podcasts tab and then find

(54:33):
the gear talk page. Thanks for listening, See you next time.