August 18, 2021 • 30 mins
Minnie questions Arielle Duhaime-Ross, correspondent and host of Vice News Reports. Arielle shares the self discoveries she made while reporting on climate change in Greenland, building empathy for the parts of herself she tends to dislike, and her go-to oatmeal recipe.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It feels like a life hack being a science journalist,
which is what I trained in. Is it really true
that you googled it to see if it was a
job science journalists? That's one would happened. I thought I
was like inventing a term. I did happen to look
at the Google history of friends. I was looking at
photos on her kid's phone, and I did see in
their Google history that they've been googling cake taster as
(00:25):
a potential job. That must be a job. I think
I have, like vaguely some uncle who was a cheese
taster for like cheese contests. Yeah, you see that sounds
like a gig to me, right. Yeah, Hello, I'm mini
driver and welcome to many questions. I've always loved prus questionnaire.
(00:47):
It was originally an eighteenth century parlor game meant to
reveal an individual's true nature. But with so many questions
there wasn't really an opportunity to expand on anything. So
I took the format of Pruce's questionnaire and adapt it.
What I think are seven of the most important questions
you could ever ask someone. They are when and where
were you happiest? What is the quality you like least
(01:10):
about yourself. What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?
What question would you most like answered, What person, place,
or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
your last meal? And can you tell me something in
your life that has grown out of a personal disaster.
(01:33):
The more people we ask, the more we begin to
see what makes us similar and what makes us individual.
I've gathered a group of really remarkable people who I
am honored and humbled to have had a chance to
engage with. My guest today is Ariel do em Ross.
She was the first climate change correspondent in American nightly
(01:54):
News and has written for Scientific American Nature, Medicine, and
The Atlantic. She had a brilliant podcast that I loved
called Reset, which was about how technology was changing everything,
and today she is the host of the Vice News
Reports podcast. She has a degree in zoology and also
one in classical guitar. She's a passionate advocate for the
(02:16):
environment and also a gifted artist. All to say, just
my kind of polymath. Where and when were you happiest?
I was thinking about this question and I really like it.
I really like the whole format of your podcast. If
I you know, if I can say that I think
(02:36):
it's replicable in a way that also just everybody's gonna
have a different answer, and it's just innately interesting. But yeah,
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think
for me, where I landed was that when I feel
happiest is when I feel at peace, and so it's
not these big important moments that feel really monumental in
my life. The thing that came to mind for me
(02:58):
was this one time I was report warding for Vice
News Tonight on HBO, but I was the climate change
correspondent for for three years. I was on a reporting trip.
We were in Greenland, in the middle of nowhere, and
I was running on this dirt road and I I'm
not really a runner, I'm no longer a runner. My
knees don't like it. But I remember really feeling at
(03:20):
peace there in that moment, and I think it's because
it was just part of my routine. It was the
thing that no matter where I was in the world,
I would run in the morning and it was an anchor.
And I'm happiest when I am able to routinely have
a loane time. Does that alone time? Does that create connection?
(03:41):
Because if you're doing something repeatedly in all these different places.
What would the connection be too, if that's what you're recreating. Yeah,
it's a good question, I think for me with running,
and there are other forms of me being alone, I
like drawing a lot, so I will go to a
place and draw my environment. I think it is about
connecting with the environment that I'm in, and also it
is about recharging so that I can connect more deeply
(04:03):
with the people around me afterwards. So it's both. It's
about being present for everything else after I've completed the run,
you know, after I've completed the drawing. And I suppose
peace is connection, like pieces pieces, connection to all of
the stuff that isn't the noise. And I mean that
both positively and negatively of our daily lives. So that's
(04:26):
quite an interesting correlation. And I also like the idea
of doing something that you do everywhere in all those places,
and that that is that is the thing that brings
you back to you. Yeah. Absolutely, I think it's just
I really am serious about routine. I think that, you know,
I thrive when much like children do, right, I thrive
(04:48):
with routine. And some people are are better able to
just adapt to whatever is happening in their lives. But
I need to have something that makes me feel like, Okay,
this is this moment in the day that I am
doing this one thing that I do almost every day.
And you know, with the pandemic, it's been a little
bit more of a struggle for me to find that.
But you know, I think I'm working it out very good.
(05:09):
What do you do? If you don't mind my asking it?
Did drawing replace running? When I was a child, I
was not super accepted in elementary school. I was different, right.
I was one of the few kids of color in
my school. I'm black. I was like, you know, tomboys, dyke,
(05:30):
and I was bookish and also a jock, like a
very weird combination of things. But I was different. I
was very very different, and I felt like I didn't
have close friendships, how somewhat bullied. I hesitate to use
that word because I think it's complicated, but I was
often alone as a child. I didn't have like any
neighborhood kids like it was just adults living or on
(05:52):
my street like it just I didn't have that. But
what came out of that kind of solitary childhood was
my art was was drawing, and for me, drawing was
this just amazing thing that I was able to do
all the time. Constantly, I would be in the basement
just like working on a project. That I always had
an art project going, and I kept it up for
a while, even through my Masters. I remember handing in
(06:14):
once like a comic book page as one of my
papers because that was loud. And then I stopped completely
and then the pandemic hit. And I think that's the
reason why it's top of mind for me is because
I reverted back to drawing and now I make artwork
for Vice News reports for the podcast. It brings me
so much joy and it takes so much time. It's
(06:37):
an absurd thing to do for a podcast host. Like
I can't believe my boss and like not only lets
me do it, but asked me to do it. I
think that's great. I think that's great. Why did you
stop doing it? You know? There are a few things
like that in my life. So I have a a
weird background. After high school, I studied classical guitar and
(06:59):
then when to study zoology for my bachelor's and then
did science writing science reporting, and I stopped playing guitar too,
and I don't know. I think it's it's a feeling
of like, if you can't be the best, then why
do it at all? But for whatever reason, during the pandemic,
all of that went away. I didn't care anymore. I
don't care that my drawings aren't perfect. I know they're not,
(07:19):
but I get so much a piece out of it,
so much comfort out of it, and I learned new
things all the time. It's just this wonderful thing that
I I'm not even sad I stopped, Like there's no regret.
It's just like it feels like I'm starting on you
and I just get to move forward and get back
into it. With guitar, I'm not there yet, but withdrawing,
(07:41):
I am. And that is truly, truly a one amazing
thing in my life right now. What a gift, What
a lovely gift, and a gift that you can put
down and pick up when you're ready. Okay, So what
(08:04):
question would she most like answered? So? I'm a huge
fan of Octavia Butler, of her science fiction writing. I
think she was brilliant, truly, and in one particular series
of her books. In the series, it has to do
with aliens, and it's beautiful. It's really really beautiful. I
don't I don't typically go for alien stories, but this
one is top notch. And in it she writes that
(08:27):
the downfall of the human species is that we are
extremely intelligent and hierarchical. And I would love to know,
not necessarily how to alter that, but how to harness
it for good. Like I guess, the question is, how
do you convince the species, the human species, to fight
(08:50):
back against our hierarchical nature, to take stock of this
characteristic and to open our eyes to its negative aspects? Right?
How do you do that? M God? I mean, I
really I feel you, But I really think if you
(09:12):
unpick that sweater, because it speaks to the fundament of Darwinism,
you know, a survival of the fittest, which is the
ultimate hierarchy, And if you start dismantling that, then perhaps
maybe we would just be happier as single cell ambers
in the primordial sludge. I mean maybe, I don't know
if you necessarily dismantle it, because I do think the
(09:32):
beautiful things come out of further competitive nature, you know,
and I certainly don't think that you know, Communism when
actually put in practice, you know, often has people who
take advantage of the system. What I think would be
wonderful would be to just have people realize that this
has an impact, that this is probably the thing fundamentally
(09:54):
that has led to climate change. You know. It a
thing that leads to wars that make no sense. It
is a thing that prevent in us from connecting truly
with each other and with people who are different from us.
Do you believe the hierarchy is that the fundament of
those things. I think it's the combination of us being
incredibly smart and hierarchy. Yeah, so the misuse of hierarchy.
(10:14):
So how could we better use hierarchy? That's really interesting, Yeah, yeah,
and just a more collaborative world. How could we make
a more collaborative world? You know, I covered climate change
for three years. It was hard, for sure, it was hard.
It just felt like people weren't listening to each other
a lot because fear and protectionism. Those have been the ironically,
(10:37):
the unifying characteristic of the world is protectionist And we're
going to do it this way, and we will share information,
but up to a point, and we might also not
share all of the information, and fear is at the
root of that. Yeah, fear is at the root of
that fear, and wanting to protect your family, wanting to
put them above everybody else, which is a perfectly understandable
(10:58):
feeling to have. The it is rooted in fear, and
oftentimes that turns into fear of others and a refusal
to listen, a refusal to open your heart, open your mind.
I think Octavia Butler had it right. I really do. Yeah,
I've got to go back and read some more because
I think you're right. I mean it's funny. I mean
we're you know, we're all looking at hierarchical structures and
(11:19):
the way that they create systems right now and hoping
to dismantle some of those. But as with every revolution,
it feels like we're having a blanket responds to something
that is so incredibly nuanced, and us reaching for and
working for to find the nuance is also really important,
and it's tough because this all comes back to the
(11:41):
fact that we different communities have different values and we
don't have um universal list of priorities right Like, I
don't know how to get to that, but I think,
just how do we make this world more collaborative. I
think it's a really great question. I think it's a
really great question to have answered. How do we make
this world more collaborative? I love that? So what quality
(12:06):
do you like least by yourself? I grew up in
a family that prizes rationality, integrity, moral behaviors, I think,
above everything else, and that comes with a ton of benefits, right, Like,
that's that's generally a good environment to grow up in.
But I think for me, the way that I internalized
(12:26):
some of that information and some of that prioritizing is
that I know, I think I internalized it in sort
of a maladaptive way. Over time, I am very good
at rationalizing my feelings into oblivion mm hmm, meaning that
if if I'm upset by something that somebody said or
(12:47):
something going on in my life, I will make backflips
really to try and either explain to myself why, you know,
why there's a there's probably a good reason for why
they said what they said. Why you know, I'm just
not understanding the context. Uh, And really, like in the
grand scheme of things, my problems are rather small, you know, rationally,
like this is a very small thing. So I just
(13:09):
I invalidate my own feelings routinely, and you know it
might be something perfectly valid, but I'll just tell myself
all the reasons why I shouldn't be concerned with it,
and I can. Yeah, I just convince myself that my
feelings are invalid, and I really dislike that about myself.
Do you try to change it? Do you take steps
(13:30):
to change that sort of as it's happening, or do
you sit around and think of other approaches? Well, I'm
noticing it more now and honestly, like, do I try
to change it? Yes, in the sense that I'm in therapy.
I love my therapist. She's wonderful. Um, I do this
really cool form of therapy that I enjoy quite a
(13:52):
bit and that has just really changed my life. Wow.
What is it. It's called i f S. It stands
for internal family systems, So I guess a less well
known therapy modality, but the way that it works, and god,
anybody who knows if S will probably like, I think
that I'm explaining this poorly, so I you know, I
apologize in advance. But basically, it's like when you say, oh,
(14:14):
a part of me feels like this, or a part
of me feels like that. Those parts are the family
system that you're tackling. So you will externalize those parts
and you will talk to those parts of yourself and
try to find out more and learn more about like
why does that part feel that way? What you know?
(14:35):
And and the part that rationalizes that's a part for me.
That's one of those things that I tackle in therapy.
That's interesting and it's really useful because you build empathy
for those parts that you dislike about yourself. So I say, like,
I really dislike that part of myself, but also I'm
trying to understand it also, I'm trying to feel for it.
(14:56):
I want to help it. The goal is for me
to dislike it less and to understand that it's probably
protecting me in some way. Mm hmmm. It's changing a
processing system though, isn't it, or maybe unfolding it into
a slightly less rational hug. Yeah, and I think it's
just you know, over time, hopefully. I think the goal
(15:16):
is that I stop invalidating when I'm bothered by something
and start letting myself feel it. God. Yeah, wow, I
could really stand to feel a little less. I mean,
what do you mean by that? It's like, Christ, do
I have to have twenty different feelings? About this because
(15:38):
you know, and all of them feeling sometimes overwhelming and volcanic.
I would love a bit more rationality. Oh that's interesting.
I feel like it would calm the waters because my
boyfriend is very it's very rational, but has extraordinary compassion,
so he can sort of explain it to me at
(16:00):
me feeling patronized or unheard, which I think is of
incredibly special quality. But we were talking the other day
about your knee joke. Reaction to a situation is your past,
and your response to it is your present. So you
are always in charge of your response. But that initial
kick of what we do and how we are, which
(16:22):
we so often react to and carry on reacting to.
I thought that was interesting to look at it as
a kind of past system. That felt quite empowering, that resonates.
I think the thing that comes to mind hearing that
is I agree that your initial reaction is your past.
I don't know if you can always control your reaction
in the present if your past is so unaddressed that
(16:46):
it takes over right, And I think that's what being
triggered is. But what about that space? So what if
it were about actually identifying and acknowledging that there is
a space that one's initial reaction is this thing, systemic
thing in one and then going, if I give this
thirty seconds recognizing what it is, that perhaps the response
(17:09):
would be different, and perhaps who I am now if
I gave them credence and empowered them, would actually have
a different response, and therefore I could sort of be
slightly more in charge of my evolution. I mean, it
seems like you're primed for I F S. I don't
know if you've you know, that's That's exactly what it is, right.
It's creating distance between these reactions and then being able
(17:30):
to address them and change those patterns over time. It's
funny because it's how a lot of my friends who
take medication for anxiety and depression. It's often how they've
explained it is that it gives you this moment to
not dissolve, disintegrate and free fall into the reaction, but
rather to negotiate and marshal a different response. That's interesting.
(17:55):
That's interesting. I A not that I'm equating the two,
but I recently put my dog on zach because nightly
fireworks for a while before the fourth of July were
really really specifically in my area. Of Brooklyn were really
really terrible. I mean it felt like there was a
boom every five seconds, and my dog got really really upset.
(18:16):
And she wasn't previously scared of fireworks. Last summer she
was fine, but then we moved and there were more fireworks,
and it's been pretty terrible. So for like two months,
she would hide in the bathroom every night and just
cower and refused to go outside, you know, to to
do her thing before bedtime, like just completely unable to
(18:37):
snap out of it. And it didn't matter if we
gave her a piece of hot dog or a piece
of cheese or any healthier dog treat alternative like it
just she couldn't snap out of it. And the prozac
is just doing wonders. She is happy again. She is
not scared at night. She and when she does get scared,
(18:58):
if there is a big boom, she covers so much faster.
It's amazing. She's a like eight pound Chihuahua and I
love her deeply. Um and I'm just I'm just relieved.
I'm so happy to hear that my friend's dog, Pete
was very very unhappy and he went on prozac, and
(19:19):
I feel like he found himself again. Yeah, I'm glad
there's lots of therapy going on in your household about
the fire ones. What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love
(19:43):
for you? When I think about love, I feel like
my instinct is to think about my grandmother and to
think about the way that she interacted with us when
she was alive, and she just had this infinite patience
and infinite curiosity about her life lives. It just feels
really pure. And also because it is a childlike love,
(20:08):
it feels two dimensional to me. What does that mean?
I mean, what does that mean in terms of processing
that it feels two dimensional? Toy? Well, it feels like
we never went through any of the heart stuff together.
I see. It was amazing, It was perfect, and it
was very one sided, probably right, Like I mean, I
loved her deeply, but I didn't prod her life and
her inner feelings the way I would as an adult,
(20:31):
and so I feel like I missed out on that
opportunity a little bit to reciprocate in a way that
feels meaningful. She knew that I loved her, I was
obsessed with her, But it feels very childlike. But perhaps
that was exactly what she wanted, and perhaps she had
all the more complicated prodding from all the other people
in her life, probably, but with you, it was pure
(20:54):
and it was uncomplicated, just unconditional love. Yeah, I mean,
and there's definitely something to be said for that. But
for me, when I think about what defines love, then
I think, you know, the tendency is for people to
look around and to point at something and say that's
that's what I want. And when I do that, what
I land on is my current relationship with my wife.
(21:15):
That's what I want and I and I have it.
I'm very fortunate in that way. I am deeply, deeply
in love with her and I am loved well by her,
And I mean to me that there's everything about our
relationship which is not perfect, but is the closest thing
I've ever experienced to that. How do you think that
(21:35):
that sort of feeling of completion with yourself when you're
with somebody else and with them, how does one keep
evolving when you feel like something has completed? Well, I
think that's that's the that's the whole thing you like
exactly hit it, you know. It's the love that we
have is a love where it is freeing you are
(22:00):
to be yourself and to be yourself fully in every
iteration of yourself throughout time. And so I know that Meredith,
I love the person I was five years ago deeply,
she loves the person that I am today, and in
all likelihood, because we have this foundation of allowing for change,
(22:24):
she will love the person that I am in ten years.
And that's certainty. That belief that she believes that I
am beautiful, both both inside and out, and also that
that beauty means that I am not perfect, means that
I will change, means that I will be a different person.
It just you grow in a relationship that is healthy.
(22:45):
You grow with your partner, and we have grown a
lot over the last seven years. That's so nice to hear.
It's so lovely, and you're right, growth is growing together
is it is definitely the coolness stone. If there is
a special source to a a relationship that has longevity,
I would say that it is that it is mutual
(23:07):
growth and respect for each other's growth. Yeah. Absolutely, And
I think it's just being free to be the ugly
parts of yourself as well, right, and to tackle those
to not hide them away from your partner. And from
the world to be told that it is okay, and
she's she's really the first person in my life that
(23:29):
truly made me feel beautiful. And I think that that
is really, really meaningful. I mean, she's amazing, She's she's unbelievable.
You know. Oh god, this is so embarrassing. I can't
really want to talk about this. Um. You know. The
thing that I love about a relationship is that we play.
She had a difficult childhood. I spent a lot of
time alone as a child, and I think that for us,
(23:51):
adulthood is an opportunity to really play together, to really
get that thing that we probably were seeking when we
were children. And the reason why I bring us up
is because we watch The Bachelor and The Bachelorette together,
and a few days ago we were have you are
(24:11):
you familiar watch the show? I didn't watch the show.
I have watched the show. Okay, I have watched some
key moments. I do. I do understand the poll? Carry on, okay,
are you good? Are you familiar with the term? Who'd you? Oh?
My god, no, what does that mean? Okay? So it
(24:32):
stands for hug jump and it was coined by a
podcast that covers The Bachelor specifically, and a few days
ago we were just like, let's just try it. Let's
just do the running hug jump, and so, you know,
we just like, it's really embarrassing. What we didn't realize
is that the webcam that we have in our house
for when we're checking in on our dog when we're gone,
(24:53):
was on. And so I have these videos, these really
embarrassing videos of her running towards me and me trying
to catch her and then twirling around saying like, oh right,
I have to twirl like that's an important part of
the hug jump. And really I just had the best time.
(25:14):
What would be your last mail? I discussed this answer
with my wife, and when I told her, like, what
do you think it is? She said, please tell me
it's not own meal? And oh my god, that's already
telling me that it might be a male it's oatmeal.
(25:36):
I think I could have done. I was like, maybe
it should be Trinidad Curry. My father's from Trinidad, you
know ROTI yum that kind of thing. Maybe it should
be my mother's from from Quebec. I grew up in Montreal,
so maybe she'd be like, it's is like a meat pie.
Maybe should be something like that, you know, something that's
culturally meaningful to me, And no, I just if I
(26:00):
know that I'm going to die, I want comfort and
I want something else that is anchoring and that is
part of my routine, and I want like oatmeal with
bananas and peanut butter and a cup of coffee. Like
that sounds really good. I might have to go and
make that right now. Oh yeah, highly recommended. I like that.
(26:20):
I like that as you were preparing to make an
exit that again, it would be about the routine and
the comfort that you found in this life and one earth.
Would you change that? And have you know Daca Larange
at the last moment? Yeah, why would I take a chance?
Why would you take a chance? It's the last one.
(26:41):
I want something consistent and that something that makes me happy.
Sprinkle oh um, if you do do it, a little
bit of molten salt flakes like on top of the
bananas and the peanut butter. Very good sounds. And you know,
I'm sure that some people are hearing this and are
going like, this is the most boring thing. I cannot
(27:03):
believe that this is what you would eat going out.
I don't know. I think when we think of ourselves
at the nexus of life and death, I don't think
you can judge what any single person would say is
either their last thought or the last words that they
would say, or the last meal that they would eat,
because that is between them and the life that they've
(27:24):
lived and whatever they anticipate coming next. Yeah, and I
want to feel full. I want to think, I want
to I really, really really want to feel full. By
the way, being hungry in the afterlife would most likely suck,
would suck mal like doesn't that? I mean, I don't
(27:44):
actually believe in the afterlife, but just in case, and
that's my kind of atheism. Look, just in case, I'm
going to have this giant glass of wine and a
bowl of oat mail. Yes, I might supplant the coffee
for Yeah, that's kind of a weird combination. I don't know,
wine and oatmeal. Look, I do the oatmeal, do some
(28:08):
thinking in a bit of writing, then I have a
glass of wine, and then sayonara, how about whiskey and oatmeal.
Well that's very Scottish, by the way, how about making
oatmeal with whiskey? Now that's a thought. If you soaked
the oats in the whiskey overnight even and then made them. Oh,
I'm definitely making this, so yeah, you'd basically completely modifying
(28:32):
overnight oats instead of like milk and yogurt. Let's do it,
let's do it, let's try it out. Definitely think you
should do it, because also one might just be slightly
hammered after breakfast, but you've eaten legitimately. Yeah, that sounds delightful.
It's been such a pleasure talking to you. I'm so
grateful for you coming on the show. It's just thank
(28:53):
you for having me. Britain. Really really appreciate it. I
love the meeting of playfulness and intellectual acuity. I appreciate that.
Say hi to Meredith from me. She will thank you
so much for having me. I really do think that
this This is an amazing format. It's very very cool.
Thank you. You can hear. R L hosts the Vice
(29:16):
News Reports podcast every week from Vice and I Heart Radio.
Recent episodes take you from a deep dive investigation into
one of the most influential digital disinformation machines run by
a little known Chinese spiritual movement, to Tuloom, Mexico, where
the reporter travels to try to understand why so many
Black Americans are seeking refuge there, and be sure to
(29:37):
check out her artwork. She makes lots of it for
many of the episodes. Mini Questions is hosted and written
by Me Mini Driver, Supervising producer Aaron Kaufman, Producer Morgan Lavoy,
Research assistant Marissa Brown. Original music Sorry Baby by Mini Driver,
(30:01):
additional music by Aaron Kaufman, Executive produced by Me Mini Driver.
Special thanks to Jim Nikolay, Will Pearson, Addison No Day,
Lisa Castella and Annick Oppenheim at w kPr, de La Pescador,
Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg, and for constantly solicited tech support,
(30:24):
Henry Driver
It feels like a life hack being a science journalist,
which is what I trained in. Is it really true
that you googled it to see if it was a
job science journalists? That's one would happened. I thought I
was like inventing a term. I did happen to look
at the Google history of friends. I was looking at
photos on her kid's phone, and I did see in
their Google history that they've been googling cake taster as
(00:25):
a potential job. That must be a job. I think
I have, like vaguely some uncle who was a cheese
taster for like cheese contests. Yeah, you see that sounds
like a gig to me, right. Yeah, Hello, I'm mini
driver and welcome to many questions. I've always loved prus questionnaire.
(00:47):
It was originally an eighteenth century parlor game meant to
reveal an individual's true nature. But with so many questions
there wasn't really an opportunity to expand on anything. So
I took the format of Pruce's questionnaire and adapt it.
What I think are seven of the most important questions
you could ever ask someone. They are when and where
were you happiest? What is the quality you like least
(01:10):
about yourself. What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?
What question would you most like answered, What person, place,
or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
your last meal? And can you tell me something in
your life that has grown out of a personal disaster.
(01:33):
The more people we ask, the more we begin to
see what makes us similar and what makes us individual.
I've gathered a group of really remarkable people who I
am honored and humbled to have had a chance to
engage with. My guest today is Ariel do em Ross.
She was the first climate change correspondent in American nightly
(01:54):
News and has written for Scientific American Nature, Medicine, and
The Atlantic. She had a brilliant podcast that I loved
called Reset, which was about how technology was changing everything,
and today she is the host of the Vice News
Reports podcast. She has a degree in zoology and also
one in classical guitar. She's a passionate advocate for the
(02:16):
environment and also a gifted artist. All to say, just
my kind of polymath. Where and when were you happiest?
I was thinking about this question and I really like it.
I really like the whole format of your podcast. If
I you know, if I can say that I think
(02:36):
it's replicable in a way that also just everybody's gonna
have a different answer, and it's just innately interesting. But yeah,
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think
for me, where I landed was that when I feel
happiest is when I feel at peace, and so it's
not these big important moments that feel really monumental in
my life. The thing that came to mind for me
(02:58):
was this one time I was report warding for Vice
News Tonight on HBO, but I was the climate change
correspondent for for three years. I was on a reporting trip.
We were in Greenland, in the middle of nowhere, and
I was running on this dirt road and I I'm
not really a runner, I'm no longer a runner. My
knees don't like it. But I remember really feeling at
(03:20):
peace there in that moment, and I think it's because
it was just part of my routine. It was the
thing that no matter where I was in the world,
I would run in the morning and it was an anchor.
And I'm happiest when I am able to routinely have
a loane time. Does that alone time? Does that create connection?
(03:41):
Because if you're doing something repeatedly in all these different places.
What would the connection be too, if that's what you're recreating. Yeah,
it's a good question, I think for me with running,
and there are other forms of me being alone, I
like drawing a lot, so I will go to a
place and draw my environment. I think it is about
connecting with the environment that I'm in, and also it
is about recharging so that I can connect more deeply
(04:03):
with the people around me afterwards. So it's both. It's
about being present for everything else after I've completed the run,
you know, after I've completed the drawing. And I suppose
peace is connection, like pieces pieces, connection to all of
the stuff that isn't the noise. And I mean that
both positively and negatively of our daily lives. So that's
(04:26):
quite an interesting correlation. And I also like the idea
of doing something that you do everywhere in all those places,
and that that is that is the thing that brings
you back to you. Yeah. Absolutely, I think it's just
I really am serious about routine. I think that, you know,
I thrive when much like children do, right, I thrive
(04:48):
with routine. And some people are are better able to
just adapt to whatever is happening in their lives. But
I need to have something that makes me feel like, Okay,
this is this moment in the day that I am
doing this one thing that I do almost every day.
And you know, with the pandemic, it's been a little
bit more of a struggle for me to find that.
But you know, I think I'm working it out very good.
(05:09):
What do you do? If you don't mind my asking it?
Did drawing replace running? When I was a child, I
was not super accepted in elementary school. I was different, right.
I was one of the few kids of color in
my school. I'm black. I was like, you know, tomboys, dyke,
(05:30):
and I was bookish and also a jock, like a
very weird combination of things. But I was different. I
was very very different, and I felt like I didn't
have close friendships, how somewhat bullied. I hesitate to use
that word because I think it's complicated, but I was
often alone as a child. I didn't have like any
neighborhood kids like it was just adults living or on
(05:52):
my street like it just I didn't have that. But
what came out of that kind of solitary childhood was
my art was was drawing, and for me, drawing was
this just amazing thing that I was able to do
all the time. Constantly, I would be in the basement
just like working on a project. That I always had
an art project going, and I kept it up for
a while, even through my Masters. I remember handing in
(06:14):
once like a comic book page as one of my
papers because that was loud. And then I stopped completely
and then the pandemic hit. And I think that's the
reason why it's top of mind for me is because
I reverted back to drawing and now I make artwork
for Vice News reports for the podcast. It brings me
so much joy and it takes so much time. It's
(06:37):
an absurd thing to do for a podcast host. Like
I can't believe my boss and like not only lets
me do it, but asked me to do it. I
think that's great. I think that's great. Why did you
stop doing it? You know? There are a few things
like that in my life. So I have a a
weird background. After high school, I studied classical guitar and
(06:59):
then when to study zoology for my bachelor's and then
did science writing science reporting, and I stopped playing guitar too,
and I don't know. I think it's it's a feeling
of like, if you can't be the best, then why
do it at all? But for whatever reason, during the pandemic,
all of that went away. I didn't care anymore. I
don't care that my drawings aren't perfect. I know they're not,
(07:19):
but I get so much a piece out of it,
so much comfort out of it, and I learned new
things all the time. It's just this wonderful thing that
I I'm not even sad I stopped, Like there's no regret.
It's just like it feels like I'm starting on you
and I just get to move forward and get back
into it. With guitar, I'm not there yet, but withdrawing,
(07:41):
I am. And that is truly, truly a one amazing
thing in my life right now. What a gift, What
a lovely gift, and a gift that you can put
down and pick up when you're ready. Okay, So what
(08:04):
question would she most like answered? So? I'm a huge
fan of Octavia Butler, of her science fiction writing. I
think she was brilliant, truly, and in one particular series
of her books. In the series, it has to do
with aliens, and it's beautiful. It's really really beautiful. I
don't I don't typically go for alien stories, but this
one is top notch. And in it she writes that
(08:27):
the downfall of the human species is that we are
extremely intelligent and hierarchical. And I would love to know,
not necessarily how to alter that, but how to harness
it for good. Like I guess, the question is, how
do you convince the species, the human species, to fight
(08:50):
back against our hierarchical nature, to take stock of this
characteristic and to open our eyes to its negative aspects? Right?
How do you do that? M God? I mean, I
really I feel you, But I really think if you
(09:12):
unpick that sweater, because it speaks to the fundament of Darwinism,
you know, a survival of the fittest, which is the
ultimate hierarchy, And if you start dismantling that, then perhaps
maybe we would just be happier as single cell ambers
in the primordial sludge. I mean maybe, I don't know
if you necessarily dismantle it, because I do think the
(09:32):
beautiful things come out of further competitive nature, you know,
and I certainly don't think that you know, Communism when
actually put in practice, you know, often has people who
take advantage of the system. What I think would be
wonderful would be to just have people realize that this
has an impact, that this is probably the thing fundamentally
(09:54):
that has led to climate change. You know. It a
thing that leads to wars that make no sense. It
is a thing that prevent in us from connecting truly
with each other and with people who are different from us.
Do you believe the hierarchy is that the fundament of
those things. I think it's the combination of us being
incredibly smart and hierarchy. Yeah, so the misuse of hierarchy.
(10:14):
So how could we better use hierarchy? That's really interesting, Yeah, yeah,
and just a more collaborative world. How could we make
a more collaborative world? You know, I covered climate change
for three years. It was hard, for sure, it was hard.
It just felt like people weren't listening to each other
a lot because fear and protectionism. Those have been the ironically,
(10:37):
the unifying characteristic of the world is protectionist And we're
going to do it this way, and we will share information,
but up to a point, and we might also not
share all of the information, and fear is at the
root of that. Yeah, fear is at the root of
that fear, and wanting to protect your family, wanting to
put them above everybody else, which is a perfectly understandable
(10:58):
feeling to have. The it is rooted in fear, and
oftentimes that turns into fear of others and a refusal
to listen, a refusal to open your heart, open your mind.
I think Octavia Butler had it right. I really do. Yeah,
I've got to go back and read some more because
I think you're right. I mean it's funny. I mean
we're you know, we're all looking at hierarchical structures and
(11:19):
the way that they create systems right now and hoping
to dismantle some of those. But as with every revolution,
it feels like we're having a blanket responds to something
that is so incredibly nuanced, and us reaching for and
working for to find the nuance is also really important,
and it's tough because this all comes back to the
(11:41):
fact that we different communities have different values and we
don't have um universal list of priorities right Like, I
don't know how to get to that, but I think,
just how do we make this world more collaborative. I
think it's a really great question. I think it's a
really great question to have answered. How do we make
this world more collaborative? I love that? So what quality
(12:06):
do you like least by yourself? I grew up in
a family that prizes rationality, integrity, moral behaviors, I think,
above everything else, and that comes with a ton of benefits, right, Like,
that's that's generally a good environment to grow up in.
But I think for me, the way that I internalized
(12:26):
some of that information and some of that prioritizing is
that I know, I think I internalized it in sort
of a maladaptive way. Over time, I am very good
at rationalizing my feelings into oblivion mm hmm, meaning that
if if I'm upset by something that somebody said or
(12:47):
something going on in my life, I will make backflips
really to try and either explain to myself why, you know,
why there's a there's probably a good reason for why
they said what they said. Why you know, I'm just
not understanding the context. Uh, And really, like in the
grand scheme of things, my problems are rather small, you know, rationally,
like this is a very small thing. So I just
(13:09):
I invalidate my own feelings routinely, and you know it
might be something perfectly valid, but I'll just tell myself
all the reasons why I shouldn't be concerned with it,
and I can. Yeah, I just convince myself that my
feelings are invalid, and I really dislike that about myself.
Do you try to change it? Do you take steps
(13:30):
to change that sort of as it's happening, or do
you sit around and think of other approaches? Well, I'm
noticing it more now and honestly, like, do I try
to change it? Yes, in the sense that I'm in therapy.
I love my therapist. She's wonderful. Um, I do this
really cool form of therapy that I enjoy quite a
(13:52):
bit and that has just really changed my life. Wow.
What is it. It's called i f S. It stands
for internal family systems, So I guess a less well
known therapy modality, but the way that it works, and god,
anybody who knows if S will probably like, I think
that I'm explaining this poorly, so I you know, I
apologize in advance. But basically, it's like when you say, oh,
(14:14):
a part of me feels like this, or a part
of me feels like that. Those parts are the family
system that you're tackling. So you will externalize those parts
and you will talk to those parts of yourself and
try to find out more and learn more about like
why does that part feel that way? What you know?
(14:35):
And and the part that rationalizes that's a part for me.
That's one of those things that I tackle in therapy.
That's interesting and it's really useful because you build empathy
for those parts that you dislike about yourself. So I say, like,
I really dislike that part of myself, but also I'm
trying to understand it also, I'm trying to feel for it.
(14:56):
I want to help it. The goal is for me
to dislike it less and to understand that it's probably
protecting me in some way. Mm hmmm. It's changing a
processing system though, isn't it, or maybe unfolding it into
a slightly less rational hug. Yeah, and I think it's
just you know, over time, hopefully. I think the goal
(15:16):
is that I stop invalidating when I'm bothered by something
and start letting myself feel it. God. Yeah, wow, I
could really stand to feel a little less. I mean,
what do you mean by that? It's like, Christ, do
I have to have twenty different feelings? About this because
(15:38):
you know, and all of them feeling sometimes overwhelming and volcanic.
I would love a bit more rationality. Oh that's interesting.
I feel like it would calm the waters because my
boyfriend is very it's very rational, but has extraordinary compassion,
so he can sort of explain it to me at
(16:00):
me feeling patronized or unheard, which I think is of
incredibly special quality. But we were talking the other day
about your knee joke. Reaction to a situation is your past,
and your response to it is your present. So you
are always in charge of your response. But that initial
kick of what we do and how we are, which
(16:22):
we so often react to and carry on reacting to.
I thought that was interesting to look at it as
a kind of past system. That felt quite empowering, that resonates.
I think the thing that comes to mind hearing that
is I agree that your initial reaction is your past.
I don't know if you can always control your reaction
in the present if your past is so unaddressed that
(16:46):
it takes over right, And I think that's what being
triggered is. But what about that space? So what if
it were about actually identifying and acknowledging that there is
a space that one's initial reaction is this thing, systemic
thing in one and then going, if I give this
thirty seconds recognizing what it is, that perhaps the response
(17:09):
would be different, and perhaps who I am now if
I gave them credence and empowered them, would actually have
a different response, and therefore I could sort of be
slightly more in charge of my evolution. I mean, it
seems like you're primed for I F S. I don't
know if you've you know, that's That's exactly what it is, right.
It's creating distance between these reactions and then being able
(17:30):
to address them and change those patterns over time. It's
funny because it's how a lot of my friends who
take medication for anxiety and depression. It's often how they've
explained it is that it gives you this moment to
not dissolve, disintegrate and free fall into the reaction, but
rather to negotiate and marshal a different response. That's interesting.
(17:55):
That's interesting. I A not that I'm equating the two,
but I recently put my dog on zach because nightly
fireworks for a while before the fourth of July were
really really specifically in my area. Of Brooklyn were really
really terrible. I mean it felt like there was a
boom every five seconds, and my dog got really really upset.
(18:16):
And she wasn't previously scared of fireworks. Last summer she
was fine, but then we moved and there were more fireworks,
and it's been pretty terrible. So for like two months,
she would hide in the bathroom every night and just
cower and refused to go outside, you know, to to
do her thing before bedtime, like just completely unable to
(18:37):
snap out of it. And it didn't matter if we
gave her a piece of hot dog or a piece
of cheese or any healthier dog treat alternative like it
just she couldn't snap out of it. And the prozac
is just doing wonders. She is happy again. She is
not scared at night. She and when she does get scared,
(18:58):
if there is a big boom, she covers so much faster.
It's amazing. She's a like eight pound Chihuahua and I
love her deeply. Um and I'm just I'm just relieved.
I'm so happy to hear that my friend's dog, Pete
was very very unhappy and he went on prozac, and
(19:19):
I feel like he found himself again. Yeah, I'm glad
there's lots of therapy going on in your household about
the fire ones. What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love
(19:43):
for you? When I think about love, I feel like
my instinct is to think about my grandmother and to
think about the way that she interacted with us when
she was alive, and she just had this infinite patience
and infinite curiosity about her life lives. It just feels
really pure. And also because it is a childlike love,
(20:08):
it feels two dimensional to me. What does that mean?
I mean, what does that mean in terms of processing
that it feels two dimensional? Toy? Well, it feels like
we never went through any of the heart stuff together.
I see. It was amazing, It was perfect, and it
was very one sided, probably right, Like I mean, I
loved her deeply, but I didn't prod her life and
her inner feelings the way I would as an adult,
(20:31):
and so I feel like I missed out on that
opportunity a little bit to reciprocate in a way that
feels meaningful. She knew that I loved her, I was
obsessed with her, But it feels very childlike. But perhaps
that was exactly what she wanted, and perhaps she had
all the more complicated prodding from all the other people
in her life, probably, but with you, it was pure
(20:54):
and it was uncomplicated, just unconditional love. Yeah, I mean,
and there's definitely something to be said for that. But
for me, when I think about what defines love, then
I think, you know, the tendency is for people to
look around and to point at something and say that's
that's what I want. And when I do that, what
I land on is my current relationship with my wife.
(21:15):
That's what I want and I and I have it.
I'm very fortunate in that way. I am deeply, deeply
in love with her and I am loved well by her,
And I mean to me that there's everything about our
relationship which is not perfect, but is the closest thing
I've ever experienced to that. How do you think that
(21:35):
that sort of feeling of completion with yourself when you're
with somebody else and with them, how does one keep
evolving when you feel like something has completed? Well, I
think that's that's the that's the whole thing you like
exactly hit it, you know. It's the love that we
have is a love where it is freeing you are
(22:00):
to be yourself and to be yourself fully in every
iteration of yourself throughout time. And so I know that Meredith,
I love the person I was five years ago deeply,
she loves the person that I am today, and in
all likelihood, because we have this foundation of allowing for change,
(22:24):
she will love the person that I am in ten years.
And that's certainty. That belief that she believes that I
am beautiful, both both inside and out, and also that
that beauty means that I am not perfect, means that
I will change, means that I will be a different person.
It just you grow in a relationship that is healthy.
(22:45):
You grow with your partner, and we have grown a
lot over the last seven years. That's so nice to hear.
It's so lovely, and you're right, growth is growing together
is it is definitely the coolness stone. If there is
a special source to a a relationship that has longevity,
I would say that it is that it is mutual
(23:07):
growth and respect for each other's growth. Yeah. Absolutely, And
I think it's just being free to be the ugly
parts of yourself as well, right, and to tackle those
to not hide them away from your partner. And from
the world to be told that it is okay, and
she's she's really the first person in my life that
(23:29):
truly made me feel beautiful. And I think that that
is really, really meaningful. I mean, she's amazing, She's she's unbelievable.
You know. Oh god, this is so embarrassing. I can't
really want to talk about this. Um. You know. The
thing that I love about a relationship is that we play.
She had a difficult childhood. I spent a lot of
time alone as a child, and I think that for us,
(23:51):
adulthood is an opportunity to really play together, to really
get that thing that we probably were seeking when we
were children. And the reason why I bring us up
is because we watch The Bachelor and The Bachelorette together,
and a few days ago we were have you are
(24:11):
you familiar watch the show? I didn't watch the show.
I have watched the show. Okay, I have watched some
key moments. I do. I do understand the poll? Carry on, okay,
are you good? Are you familiar with the term? Who'd you? Oh?
My god, no, what does that mean? Okay? So it
(24:32):
stands for hug jump and it was coined by a
podcast that covers The Bachelor specifically, and a few days
ago we were just like, let's just try it. Let's
just do the running hug jump, and so, you know,
we just like, it's really embarrassing. What we didn't realize
is that the webcam that we have in our house
for when we're checking in on our dog when we're gone,
(24:53):
was on. And so I have these videos, these really
embarrassing videos of her running towards me and me trying
to catch her and then twirling around saying like, oh right,
I have to twirl like that's an important part of
the hug jump. And really I just had the best time.
(25:14):
What would be your last mail? I discussed this answer
with my wife, and when I told her, like, what
do you think it is? She said, please tell me
it's not own meal? And oh my god, that's already
telling me that it might be a male it's oatmeal.
(25:36):
I think I could have done. I was like, maybe
it should be Trinidad Curry. My father's from Trinidad, you
know ROTI yum that kind of thing. Maybe it should
be my mother's from from Quebec. I grew up in Montreal,
so maybe she'd be like, it's is like a meat pie.
Maybe should be something like that, you know, something that's
culturally meaningful to me, And no, I just if I
(26:00):
know that I'm going to die, I want comfort and
I want something else that is anchoring and that is
part of my routine, and I want like oatmeal with
bananas and peanut butter and a cup of coffee. Like
that sounds really good. I might have to go and
make that right now. Oh yeah, highly recommended. I like that.
(26:20):
I like that as you were preparing to make an
exit that again, it would be about the routine and
the comfort that you found in this life and one earth.
Would you change that? And have you know Daca Larange
at the last moment? Yeah, why would I take a chance?
Why would you take a chance? It's the last one.
(26:41):
I want something consistent and that something that makes me happy.
Sprinkle oh um, if you do do it, a little
bit of molten salt flakes like on top of the
bananas and the peanut butter. Very good sounds. And you know,
I'm sure that some people are hearing this and are
going like, this is the most boring thing. I cannot
(27:03):
believe that this is what you would eat going out.
I don't know. I think when we think of ourselves
at the nexus of life and death, I don't think
you can judge what any single person would say is
either their last thought or the last words that they
would say, or the last meal that they would eat,
because that is between them and the life that they've
(27:24):
lived and whatever they anticipate coming next. Yeah, and I
want to feel full. I want to think, I want
to I really, really really want to feel full. By
the way, being hungry in the afterlife would most likely suck,
would suck mal like doesn't that? I mean, I don't
(27:44):
actually believe in the afterlife, but just in case, and
that's my kind of atheism. Look, just in case, I'm
going to have this giant glass of wine and a
bowl of oat mail. Yes, I might supplant the coffee
for Yeah, that's kind of a weird combination. I don't know,
wine and oatmeal. Look, I do the oatmeal, do some
(28:08):
thinking in a bit of writing, then I have a
glass of wine, and then sayonara, how about whiskey and oatmeal.
Well that's very Scottish, by the way, how about making
oatmeal with whiskey? Now that's a thought. If you soaked
the oats in the whiskey overnight even and then made them. Oh,
I'm definitely making this, so yeah, you'd basically completely modifying
(28:32):
overnight oats instead of like milk and yogurt. Let's do it,
let's do it, let's try it out. Definitely think you
should do it, because also one might just be slightly
hammered after breakfast, but you've eaten legitimately. Yeah, that sounds delightful.
It's been such a pleasure talking to you. I'm so
grateful for you coming on the show. It's just thank
(28:53):
you for having me. Britain. Really really appreciate it. I
love the meeting of playfulness and intellectual acuity. I appreciate that.
Say hi to Meredith from me. She will thank you
so much for having me. I really do think that
this This is an amazing format. It's very very cool.
Thank you. You can hear. R L hosts the Vice
(29:16):
News Reports podcast every week from Vice and I Heart Radio.
Recent episodes take you from a deep dive investigation into
one of the most influential digital disinformation machines run by
a little known Chinese spiritual movement, to Tuloom, Mexico, where
the reporter travels to try to understand why so many
Black Americans are seeking refuge there, and be sure to
(29:37):
check out her artwork. She makes lots of it for
many of the episodes. Mini Questions is hosted and written
by Me Mini Driver, Supervising producer Aaron Kaufman, Producer Morgan Lavoy,
Research assistant Marissa Brown. Original music Sorry Baby by Mini Driver,
(30:01):
additional music by Aaron Kaufman, Executive produced by Me Mini Driver.
Special thanks to Jim Nikolay, Will Pearson, Addison No Day,
Lisa Castella and Annick Oppenheim at w kPr, de La Pescador,
Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg, and for constantly solicited tech support,
(30:24):
Henry Driver
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Death, Sex & Money
Anna Sale explores the big questions and hard choices that are often left out of polite conversation.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.