October 5, 2022 • 26 mins
Minnie questions Constance Wu, actress and author. Constance shares lessons from the one teacher who believed in her, the love story she had to step away from, and why her daughter isn’t fooled by empty La Croix cans.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's something about a fitted sheet. It feels personal, and
it also felt just like bad design, and that nobody
thought it through and that there are all kinds of
ramifications that passed me off. I've looked up on the
internet how to do it, and I get there's a way,
but it's not really exactly how I would want it
to be. It's not neat. Hello, I'm Mini Driver. Welcome
(00:24):
to Many Questions, Season two. I've always loved Prust's question
that it was originally a nineteenth century parlor game where
players would ask each other thirty five questions aimed at
revealing the other players true nature. It's just the scientific
method really. In asking different people the same set of questions,
(00:44):
you can make observations about which truths appeared to be universal.
I love this discipline, and it made me wonder, what
if these questions were just the jumping off point, what
greater depths would be revealed if I asked these questions
as conversation starters with thought leaders and trailblazers across all
these different disciplines. So I adapted prus questionnaire and I
(01:06):
wrote my own seven questions that I personally think a
pertinent to a person's story, they are, when and where
were you happiest? What is the quality you like least
about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?
What question would you most like answered? What person, place,
or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
(01:26):
your last meal? And can you tell me something in
your life that's grown out of a personal disaster? And
I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that
I am honored and humbled to have had the chance
to engage with. You may not hear their answers to
all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to
which questions felt closest to their experience, or the most surprising,
(01:51):
or created the most fertile ground to connect. My guest
today is actor Constance Will. Constance has starred in the
Film's Crazy Rich, Asan's Hustlers, and the TV series Fresh
off the Boat. She's been included in Time Magazine's list
of the hundred most Influential people in the World, and
(02:11):
she has just had a new book published. Her book,
Making a Scene is a series of essays that delve
into her memories of childhood, young love and heartbreak, and more.
Devastatingly sexual assault and harassment. It was really interesting reading
about her experience of life inside Hollywood, and her stories
offer a behind the scenes look at being Asian American
(02:34):
in the entertainment industry and the continuing evolution of her
own identity and influence in the public eye. We bonded
over a shared love of Marjorie Williams two book, The
Velveteen Rabbit, and I really really enjoyed our conversation. What relationship,
(02:55):
real or fictionalized, defines love for you? I write about
this in my book. There is a chapter called real Love,
and it's actually about my pet bunny rabbit. And I'm
not saying that my pet bunny rabbit epitomizes real love,
because I've had greater love affairs than the one with
my pet. But in the end, I talked about a
section in that children's book, The Velveteen Rabbit, Oh Yeah,
(03:18):
where he talks about what is real and what is
real love and it's not about how you're made. And
the skin horse says something like, usually by the time
you're real, all your hair has been loved off and
your eyes have dropped down, and you're really shabby, and
it hurts sometimes but it doesn't matter because by the
time you're real, that kind of thing doesn't matter. And
if somebody thinks that matters, then they just don't understand.
(03:42):
That story, I think really epitomizes real love. Velveteen Rabbit.
I think that was probably the first book that I
cried with my mother about. It's beautiful. That's such a
gentle choice of definition of love and of a book
as well. It's funny the wisdom you find in a
kid's book. I you don't think you would, but then
(04:02):
there's just such moving wisdom, and Velveteen Rabbit it's a
perfect example of that. I agree. It's beautiful and really sad.
We read that along with this book called The Water Babies,
which is another unfathomably English book that is super super sad.
But you think it's a kid's book about kids who
were like chimney sweeps. You know, in the Victorian era
(04:25):
they would send little children because they were tiny and
they could fit up the chimneys and they could clean
them out. My god, there's a uniquely British sort of
torture small children. Anyway, it's about one of these little
chimney sweeps and how he comes down into the bedroom
of this girl in the fancy house and becomes her friend.
And it is about friendship and about love. But of course,
(04:45):
because it's I guess it was written in like the
nine twenties, Like the Child. He dies in the end,
and I remember like closing the book and being like,
you can't this can't be real, Like he can't actually,
he can't actually die, And my mother was like, yes,
he he did. Shall we watch Sesame Storie? But you
know why, this is how children's books are deep, because
(05:07):
it's like, these are real life things that happen that
you know, children are going to have to understand. I mean,
I got to read that book man now the water
the Water Babies. It's called The Water Babies, and it's
listen when I say that he dies, he does die,
because I did a lot of reception to the book.
But there's this whole world that he goes into underneath
the water, and you realize that it's the death process, right,
it's a metaphor. And he finds all these characters and
(05:30):
all these people, and you realized that the writer was
really trying to say that there is freedom and death
from the kind of the poverty and oppression of the
suffering of human experience. However, as a little child, it's
pretty devastating. But also I don't know, it stayed with
me my whole life in the same way. Those are
the two books, The Velveteen Rabbit and the Water Babies,
with the two books from my childhood that I will
reread them and love them. And there's a reason why
(05:52):
they're classics, because they're able to just hit that spot
in your heart. Exactly. I'm gonna go and reread it's
your bunny current. Yes, she's still downstairs right now. She's
nine years old. Funny, does she go to set with you? Ever?
She does? She she comes in my trailer almost every day.
And her eye has also dropped out, just like the
(06:13):
velveteen rabbit. She only has one eye didn't drop out.
I had to remove it because she had like a
cataract and like whatever. But it's funny, the parallel. It
is funny the parallels in Chinese astrology. Are you a rabbit?
I wish? No, I'm a dog? What are you? I'm
a dog? Really? Oh, that's funny, so cool. But they
(06:34):
get on really well with rabbits, Yes they do. And
everybody loves a dog who doesn't love a dog. Bad people, Yeah,
bad people don't like dogs. That's it. Sorry? Will you
tell me where and when you were happiest? Probably right
after I pooped out a baby. It is exactly like
(06:55):
pooping out, isn't it. Nobody talks about that enough. The
nurse I was like holding my leg as she was like,
it's like you're taking a big poop. It's like she
kept saying that as I was pushing did you I
got so scared that that was what was going to happen.
I was like, I just don't want to pooh on
the doctor. I don't want to do that whole thing.
I accepted that it was going to happen because they
(07:18):
because everybody told me, like, you know what, it's going
to happen. So and I don't know if it happened obviously,
because like you know, I had never darl and like,
they're not going to tell you that. The doctor is
not going to be like by the way, you ship
right in front of me, you ship the bed. Yeah,
it's like I also shot a baby, man, like, come on,
not shot, but terrible. But I pushed out a baby.
(07:39):
Definitely my happiest moment because in the aftermath of oh
my god, I got it out mixed in with oh,
I have my dear little baby, yeah, who you've been
waiting to me for like nine months. And she was
so like not that babies can see when they're first born,
but she was so like in wonder of the world
and like taking it in and like it was just
(08:01):
the most beautiful thing to see and to hold her
against your skin and like to see that face, this
person you've been carrying inside you. I mean, it's there's
it's truly the happiest ever. It is right they told
me I was having a girl. The doctor had told
me the wrong thing. I wasn't surprised. I wanted love
to be the first word that she heard when she
(08:21):
came out. So as I was like having the baby
and pushing, I was like, and I pushed the baby
and it's a boy. And my mother goes, oh my goodness,
it's a boy. And I went, what the that's amazing.
So that was the first thing my son heard. But
it is it's remarkable like that. It's certainly these little aliens.
(08:43):
But isn't that that the perfect encapsulation of life sometimes
is love? And what the fuck, I mean together and
also happiness. I was just talking to my friend Fern today.
We are so obsessed with the idea that happiness is
not an adjunct to all the other ships. It's the
bit that saves us, but it's often the kind of
corridor through all the stuff that doesn't work out. The
(09:05):
idea of that being untainted, that love being untainted by
what the funk is ridiculous. Their part in parcel. They
don't exist without each other and probably symbiotic and wouldn't
exist without the other one. Yeah, it's like light doesn't
exist without dark. Dark doesn't as well light. You gotta
find gratitude for both things. How does that happen? Though?
I feel like in this day and age they wouldn't
(09:26):
see on the ultrasound like, oh no, actually we're wrong,
this isn't it, Like that's crazy. Well, it turns out
with all the love in the world. And I'm not
even gonna name check him because I love him and
he's still delivering babies. But he was like the gaff
doctor of all time, Like he told more people like
the gender when they didn't want to know the thing
(09:47):
with the thing, there was a whole lot of kind
of Mr Magooism around my beautiful o G. So he
told me I was having a girl, and then I
burst into tears because I don't want to know. And
so then he wrote on my chart never mentioned the
gender again. So then all the other ultra sounds they
could see, but he completely forgotten that he said it
was a girl, they could see that it was a boy,
(10:08):
and nobody said anything ever again until I had the baby.
That makes sense. What question would you most like answered?
(10:29):
How a full defended sheet? I don't know me you
can have that because I'm with you on that one.
I've looked up on the internet how to do it,
and I guess there's a way, but it's not really
exactly how I would want it to be, Like it's
not neat. I agree with you. And also I don't
accept the imperfection, like I think we all spend a
lot of time trying to accommodate imperfection, and we're told
(10:51):
that everything is imperfect, which is completely accurate. There's something
about a fitted sheet. It feels personal, and it also
feels just like bad design and that nobody thought it
through and that there are all kinds of ramifications that
passed me off. Yeah, that's one, that's the practical one.
You know. There's an ex lover of mine who had
a very long love it there off and on for
over a decade. I write about him in my book
(11:13):
and the final time we broke up because any times,
you know, he said he didn't want to commit because
he was trying to protect himself from being hurt. And
I wonder if that worked out for him, if he
suffered over it, because I I don't nestally have a
feeling that you can't ever protect yourself from pain without
blocking yourself from love. So I have a feeling that
(11:37):
he still does suffer over it. So the pain protection
plan didn't work. So if it didn't work, then why
not just choose love if pain is going to happen anyway,
because at least then you have both. But I truly
wonder because I don't know, because I I don't talk
to him anymore, and not because we're on bad terms,
we're not, but because it was just like you know,
when you have a connection with somebody that's so deep
(11:59):
that even talking to them resparks this thing that you
can't you know, it's not gonna work out. Because we
tried a million times, so it's just like, all right,
this is my kryptonite. So maybe let's just like not.
But you know, I'll always love him and Cary love
for him and want nothing but happiness for him. So
I do genuinely wonder if he ever suffered over it,
if his pain protection plan worked or not. I wonder. Wow,
(12:21):
I don't know, like I wonder in the absence of vulnerability,
I don't know. I don't think you can get the
full experience of anything without a certain level of vulnerability.
I really don't. Yeah, I would say that in my
tennis lessons, all the way through to love and shopping,
there has to be a level of revealing the soft underbelly.
(12:42):
I think, yeah, you have to. It's like the light
the dark. Like we said earlier, one doesn't exist without
the others. So you have to accept both in order
to have the full experience. But I think I use
he didn't think so, so you know, so I wonder.
I don't know. I had that with a dude. I
had that with a dude, And it's so funny it
came around and like literally eighteen years later of him
(13:03):
coming and saying, this is why that happened, and he
didn't end up with someone that he loved. He ended
up with somebody who could accommodate the way in which
he wanted to live his life. And he was like,
I never wanted to be in love with you, because
if I was in love with you, I know I
would have hurt you because it was all this other
stuff that I couldn't do. I couldn't let it in.
But there was something about the acknowledging that was satisfying,
(13:24):
you know, and me and this guy he did do
that also ten years later after our first breakup, and
so then I was like, oh my god, this is
finally the time. And I thought he had changed, but
he had changed enough that he could understand that, but
fears and ego eventually crept in and he wasn't able
to sustain it. But I'm proud of myself because, you know,
(13:47):
I basically like let him break my heart three times
over the course of fifteen years, every time thinking something
would change. But I guess it didn't. I guess history
repeats itself, which is why I'm not talking to him
ever again, because well, let's not repeat more history, right, well,
and you never run into him, no, no, he lives
in New York, first of all, and you know we
(14:09):
run in very different circles. Great, I think that whole
definition of insanity of like doing the same thing over
and over again and expect sometimes you have to just
admit that with people. But it's hard because you always
think you want to be able to accommodate change and
growth and the idea that that is possible, but I think, honestly,
sometimes it isn't. And also, like I could believe that
(14:29):
he's changed without having to be there to witness it.
I could think about, like, oh, you know what, that's
why the answer to your question is I wonder if
that's worked out for him, because I know that he
was working on things and I do wish nothing but
the best for him. But I could still hold faith
that his life is going to work out in a
beautiful way without having to be the one who's around
(14:49):
when it works out that way, because that's part of
my ability to change too, right to not engage in
that again? Yeah, yeah, what quality do you like at
least about yourself? I could be a little impatient with
people or just in general with tasks, you know, And
(15:11):
I'm just thinking, like asking your boyfriend to take out
the garbage. That's the thing that that should be done
when it's asked for, not three days later, when more
garbage is piled up, and then he's like, oh, but
I did take it out, and I'm like, yes, three
days after I asked you. You know, these very common
domestic squabbles. But yeah, sort of like to do list
(15:35):
type of things that should seem very ordinary. I get
impatient when they're procrastinated. Can I ask you, because I
know that you come from a lot of women in
your family? Yes, do you have four sisters or three?
Your one of four? I'm one of four, so four
girls in my family. So is everybody very different or
(15:55):
is that something that came from your family of Listen,
there ain't time. There's too many kids. There's too much
stuff to be done, and if I ask you to
do something, you better do it right. Then. I feel
like half and half. I feel like two of us
are kind of impatient with tasks and the other two
are much more relaxed about it. I guess you have
to have someone to be impatient with. Yeah, yeah, there's
(16:19):
two pairs of us. So it's like my older two
sisters are only a year apart, and myself and my
younger sister are only two years apart, and there's a
big gap in the middle. So I feel like each
pair balances each other out. So in the older pair,
there's somebody who's more on task and somebody who's more relaxed,
and then the younger pair, like I'm the extrovert, my
(16:40):
little sister is the introvert. We kind of balanced each
other out, is how it worked. That's really cool. I
like that. Yeah, me and my sister sometimes we switch roles.
That's the weird thing. Sometimes I'll be the taskmaster and
she'll be the supplicant, and then we flip. It's interesting.
I think I drive insane. What would be your last meal? Oh?
(17:04):
Probably Japanese chicken curry. It's like a comfort food for me,
and my mom used to make that. Like I just
even thinking about how she would be, like browning the
onions in the skillet before making it. I love it.
It's so good. Does she teach you how to cook? No,
you don't cook. I don't cook. She taught me a
little bit of a little bit. I take it back,
(17:25):
she tried to teach me how to cook. I didn't
pay attention. Did she teach your younger sister? No, My
younger sister is probably the same as me. My older
two sisters are much better cooks, and I think she
probably taught them better. I feel like the older kids
they have a more thorough experience with everything, right, because
by the younger kids, the parents are like fuck it,
I get on with it. I'm exhausted. Yeah, like do
(17:48):
whatever you want? You care? Yeah, exactly. It's funny. My
son is becoming a better cook. Now. How old is
he was fourteen yesterday? Oh my god, yeah, it's bananas.
Has gone by so fast that I know. It's crazy.
You don't feel you just don't feel any older. I
don't feel any older. I don't feel any different. I
(18:09):
don't feel any different than I was when I was
twenty six. I mean, thank god, I am very different,
but I don't feel any different at all from the
day that I had him. And it's the weirdest thing.
In the new sneakers that I gave him, he is
now taller than me. Oh my god, it's amazing. It's crazy,
Like I'm they're still going do you remember when we did?
And he's like, yeah, I totally remember that. It was awesome.
(18:29):
Now burgers and I'm like, oh, I suppose so. And
now he takes my hand across the street. Oh my god,
like I'm a little old lady. It's the nicest thing
I have to say. How beautiful he's fantastic. How old
is your daughter? She just turned to My god, she's
a baby, but oh my god. It's so fun though,
(18:52):
just watching her become a person, to go from this
little nugget to like, the other day, I gave her
my almost empty Lacroix plan because as if I give
her a full one, she'll just dump the whole thing out.
And she she like took it and trying to simp
from it. Then she goes nothing there. You know, this
is a two year old, you know, like she still
goes in the corner to announce that she's pooping, you know,
(19:14):
like in her diaper. Oh my god, I love it.
I know, it's really fun. Nothing there. You can't fool me.
There's nothing nothing here, nothing in this scan. I know.
They do go from being these like little drunk blobes
totally just sort of teaching, and then suddenly they turn
around and they're like and they also remember they're getting
the measure of us. That's sort of watching and observing
(19:36):
and going like, I know this person is going to
give me absolutely everything. How can I manipulate the rest
out of them? Yeah, they're clever, They're clever and smart,
and we made them. Yeah, and it's our own fault.
(20:03):
In your life. Can you tell me about something that
has grown out of a personal disaster? Um? Yeah, you know,
you know, I mentioning my book a lot, but because
my book is very formative for me, and there's a
chapter in which I talk about a thing that happened
to me in eighth grade that I could never get
over the pain of. And I've had objectively worse things
happened to me in my life. It was just basically
(20:25):
teacher accusing me of not really writing my term paper
and like plasiarizing. But it's something that like I just
could never get over, from when I'm twelve to now
when I'm forty, still can't get over. But in the
process of writing it, I took the time to think
about how it also helped me in a way that's
so obvious right that I can't believe it took me,
(20:48):
you know, almost thirty years to realize because you know,
she thought I plas your eyes. She didn't have any
proof because I didn't plas your eyes. So what she
did was she went to all my other teachers and
made them say to my face, like, don't believe you're
good enough to have written it. And that was her proof,
I know, to make me cry even talking about it now,
because it was like, because you can't find the proof,
(21:09):
you know, you're going to make all the teachers say
to my face, you're not good enough. But the only
teacher who believed that I was good enough to have
written it was my drama teacher. And I'm like, oh
my god, how did it take me thirty years to
realize that the only teacher and I didn't used to
want to be an actress who believed in me was
my drama teacher and I ended up becoming an actress.
(21:31):
I mean, it's like, it's crazy to think about, but
that's like basificly something that has stuck with me, and
I didn't realize for thirty years how it has shaped
me and helped me in a way that I really
appreciate because I was just focusing on the pain of
it so much. I'm really sorry that happened. Oh it's okay. No,
it's the worst. It's the word to be accused of
something that you didn't do, and to not be able
(21:53):
to put that down. That eighth grade teacher and my
drama teacher, Mr. Frazell, who believed in me, that really
altered my life. Did you talk to your drama teacher
about that whole thing? He unfortunately passed away. I looked
back for him when I was writing it, and I
realized and he passed away. I think you like a
heart attack a while ago. So that made me very sad.
But the teacher who accused me, I did not when
(22:16):
I wrote it. But I did reach out to her
ten years after it happened, when I was in college
and going through a lot of therapy because it's still
within my heart, and I called the into years trying
to prove to her. I was like, hey, remember me
in eighth grade. I really wrote that and it was
wrong of you to do that to a kid, like,
oh my god. I tried to give her a piece
of my mind. It didn't work. Writing me essay was
much more healing. Yeah, I bet I'm glad that you
(22:38):
did that. Yeah, And I wish that Mr. Frazell was
still alive for me to thank him, but by the
time I wrote that and realized that he had passed away. Unfortunately.
It's amazingly gifts. I mean, I hope everybody has a
teacher like that. I don't think everybody does, but I
certainly had a couple. It's so meaningful. It stays with you,
like whatever it is they gave you, or they defended
for you or they helped shape, stays with you for
(22:59):
you whole entire life, the whole life. Yeah, I was
writing your book enormously cathartic because there you are, actually
like to write a book like, it's quite something, I think,
to tell your stories to open up. Did that feel
like it answered some of that in a larger way
for yourself? Yeah, because I might have told that story
(23:22):
million times in therapy. The telling of it versus the
putting it down in language makes you think about it
in a different way, and it actually makes it kind
of more real. It's funny because it's like, sometimes it
feels like physical wounds feel more real than emotional wounds
because you have the scar to prove it right, But
emotional wounds have just as much of an effect on you,
(23:44):
and it's almost feels like putting it down in written
language is like the physical proof that it happened to you.
And I think that's why it was healing, because it
opens the wound into like the physical area, so you like, oh,
see it, this is a thing that happens. Now that
I've put it in language, I can help give it
(24:05):
the time and carrot needs to heal. And so it was. Yes,
talk is great. I've been a therapy for like decades
and I love it, but writing it down in language
is something that is definitely very underrated. And with healing,
talking is more cathartic. Writing was more healing. Yeah, that's
a really good way of putting it. Talking is cathartic.
Writing is healing. Yes, exactly. I was told to journal.
(24:28):
It's hard. I was told to journal so often and
it's so hard to do it. But it was actually
easy to then go. You know, it's not the journaling.
I need to write these hard stories like I need
to or I want to try, And I think exactly
what you're saying, you need a structure to it. Yes,
isn't it interesting that rather than it like calcifying as
you say it, like I love the idea of words
of scar tissue of proof of emotional trauma, even with
(24:50):
a small tea or a big tea. Constance, thank you
so much. I so appreciate your time. It's great talking
to you. It really is fantastic. Thank you. I appreciate
that you can enjoy more of Constance's stories in her
new book, Making a Scene Out Now. Mini Questions is
(25:16):
hosted and written by Me Mini Driver, supervising producer Aaron Kaufman,
Producer Morgan Levoy, Research assistant Marissa Brown. Original music Sorry
Baby by Mini Driver, Additional music by Aaron Kaufman. Executive
produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks to Jim Nikolay,
(25:40):
Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Nique Oppenheim
at w kPr, de La Pescador, Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg,
and for constantly solicited tech support, Henry Driver
There's something about a fitted sheet. It feels personal, and
it also felt just like bad design, and that nobody
thought it through and that there are all kinds of
ramifications that passed me off. I've looked up on the
internet how to do it, and I get there's a way,
but it's not really exactly how I would want it
to be. It's not neat. Hello, I'm Mini Driver. Welcome
(00:24):
to Many Questions, Season two. I've always loved Prust's question
that it was originally a nineteenth century parlor game where
players would ask each other thirty five questions aimed at
revealing the other players true nature. It's just the scientific
method really. In asking different people the same set of questions,
(00:44):
you can make observations about which truths appeared to be universal.
I love this discipline, and it made me wonder, what
if these questions were just the jumping off point, what
greater depths would be revealed if I asked these questions
as conversation starters with thought leaders and trailblazers across all
these different disciplines. So I adapted prus questionnaire and I
(01:06):
wrote my own seven questions that I personally think a
pertinent to a person's story, they are, when and where
were you happiest? What is the quality you like least
about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?
What question would you most like answered? What person, place,
or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
(01:26):
your last meal? And can you tell me something in
your life that's grown out of a personal disaster? And
I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that
I am honored and humbled to have had the chance
to engage with. You may not hear their answers to
all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to
which questions felt closest to their experience, or the most surprising,
(01:51):
or created the most fertile ground to connect. My guest
today is actor Constance Will. Constance has starred in the
Film's Crazy Rich, Asan's Hustlers, and the TV series Fresh
off the Boat. She's been included in Time Magazine's list
of the hundred most Influential people in the World, and
(02:11):
she has just had a new book published. Her book,
Making a Scene is a series of essays that delve
into her memories of childhood, young love and heartbreak, and more.
Devastatingly sexual assault and harassment. It was really interesting reading
about her experience of life inside Hollywood, and her stories
offer a behind the scenes look at being Asian American
(02:34):
in the entertainment industry and the continuing evolution of her
own identity and influence in the public eye. We bonded
over a shared love of Marjorie Williams two book, The
Velveteen Rabbit, and I really really enjoyed our conversation. What relationship,
(02:55):
real or fictionalized, defines love for you? I write about
this in my book. There is a chapter called real Love,
and it's actually about my pet bunny rabbit. And I'm
not saying that my pet bunny rabbit epitomizes real love,
because I've had greater love affairs than the one with
my pet. But in the end, I talked about a
section in that children's book, The Velveteen Rabbit, Oh Yeah,
(03:18):
where he talks about what is real and what is
real love and it's not about how you're made. And
the skin horse says something like, usually by the time
you're real, all your hair has been loved off and
your eyes have dropped down, and you're really shabby, and
it hurts sometimes but it doesn't matter because by the
time you're real, that kind of thing doesn't matter. And
if somebody thinks that matters, then they just don't understand.
(03:42):
That story, I think really epitomizes real love. Velveteen Rabbit.
I think that was probably the first book that I
cried with my mother about. It's beautiful. That's such a
gentle choice of definition of love and of a book
as well. It's funny the wisdom you find in a
kid's book. I you don't think you would, but then
(04:02):
there's just such moving wisdom, and Velveteen Rabbit it's a
perfect example of that. I agree. It's beautiful and really sad.
We read that along with this book called The Water Babies,
which is another unfathomably English book that is super super sad.
But you think it's a kid's book about kids who
were like chimney sweeps. You know, in the Victorian era
(04:25):
they would send little children because they were tiny and
they could fit up the chimneys and they could clean
them out. My god, there's a uniquely British sort of
torture small children. Anyway, it's about one of these little
chimney sweeps and how he comes down into the bedroom
of this girl in the fancy house and becomes her friend.
And it is about friendship and about love. But of course,
(04:45):
because it's I guess it was written in like the
nine twenties, Like the Child. He dies in the end,
and I remember like closing the book and being like,
you can't this can't be real, Like he can't actually,
he can't actually die, And my mother was like, yes,
he he did. Shall we watch Sesame Storie? But you
know why, this is how children's books are deep, because
(05:07):
it's like, these are real life things that happen that
you know, children are going to have to understand. I mean,
I got to read that book man now the water
the Water Babies. It's called The Water Babies, and it's
listen when I say that he dies, he does die,
because I did a lot of reception to the book.
But there's this whole world that he goes into underneath
the water, and you realize that it's the death process, right,
it's a metaphor. And he finds all these characters and
(05:30):
all these people, and you realized that the writer was
really trying to say that there is freedom and death
from the kind of the poverty and oppression of the
suffering of human experience. However, as a little child, it's
pretty devastating. But also I don't know, it stayed with
me my whole life in the same way. Those are
the two books, The Velveteen Rabbit and the Water Babies,
with the two books from my childhood that I will
reread them and love them. And there's a reason why
(05:52):
they're classics, because they're able to just hit that spot
in your heart. Exactly. I'm gonna go and reread it's
your bunny current. Yes, she's still downstairs right now. She's
nine years old. Funny, does she go to set with you? Ever?
She does? She she comes in my trailer almost every day.
And her eye has also dropped out, just like the
(06:13):
velveteen rabbit. She only has one eye didn't drop out.
I had to remove it because she had like a
cataract and like whatever. But it's funny, the parallel. It
is funny the parallels in Chinese astrology. Are you a rabbit?
I wish? No, I'm a dog? What are you? I'm
a dog? Really? Oh, that's funny, so cool. But they
(06:34):
get on really well with rabbits, Yes they do. And
everybody loves a dog who doesn't love a dog. Bad people, Yeah,
bad people don't like dogs. That's it. Sorry? Will you
tell me where and when you were happiest? Probably right
after I pooped out a baby. It is exactly like
(06:55):
pooping out, isn't it. Nobody talks about that enough. The
nurse I was like holding my leg as she was like,
it's like you're taking a big poop. It's like she
kept saying that as I was pushing did you I
got so scared that that was what was going to happen.
I was like, I just don't want to pooh on
the doctor. I don't want to do that whole thing.
I accepted that it was going to happen because they
(07:18):
because everybody told me, like, you know what, it's going
to happen. So and I don't know if it happened obviously,
because like you know, I had never darl and like,
they're not going to tell you that. The doctor is
not going to be like by the way, you ship
right in front of me, you ship the bed. Yeah,
it's like I also shot a baby, man, like, come on,
not shot, but terrible. But I pushed out a baby.
(07:39):
Definitely my happiest moment because in the aftermath of oh
my god, I got it out mixed in with oh,
I have my dear little baby, yeah, who you've been
waiting to me for like nine months. And she was
so like not that babies can see when they're first born,
but she was so like in wonder of the world
and like taking it in and like it was just
(08:01):
the most beautiful thing to see and to hold her
against your skin and like to see that face, this
person you've been carrying inside you. I mean, it's there's
it's truly the happiest ever. It is right they told
me I was having a girl. The doctor had told
me the wrong thing. I wasn't surprised. I wanted love
to be the first word that she heard when she
(08:21):
came out. So as I was like having the baby
and pushing, I was like, and I pushed the baby
and it's a boy. And my mother goes, oh my goodness,
it's a boy. And I went, what the that's amazing.
So that was the first thing my son heard. But
it is it's remarkable like that. It's certainly these little aliens.
(08:43):
But isn't that that the perfect encapsulation of life sometimes
is love? And what the fuck, I mean together and
also happiness. I was just talking to my friend Fern today.
We are so obsessed with the idea that happiness is
not an adjunct to all the other ships. It's the
bit that saves us, but it's often the kind of
corridor through all the stuff that doesn't work out. The
(09:05):
idea of that being untainted, that love being untainted by
what the funk is ridiculous. Their part in parcel. They
don't exist without each other and probably symbiotic and wouldn't
exist without the other one. Yeah, it's like light doesn't
exist without dark. Dark doesn't as well light. You gotta
find gratitude for both things. How does that happen? Though?
I feel like in this day and age they wouldn't
(09:26):
see on the ultrasound like, oh no, actually we're wrong,
this isn't it, Like that's crazy. Well, it turns out
with all the love in the world. And I'm not
even gonna name check him because I love him and
he's still delivering babies. But he was like the gaff
doctor of all time, Like he told more people like
the gender when they didn't want to know the thing
(09:47):
with the thing, there was a whole lot of kind
of Mr Magooism around my beautiful o G. So he
told me I was having a girl, and then I
burst into tears because I don't want to know. And
so then he wrote on my chart never mentioned the
gender again. So then all the other ultra sounds they
could see, but he completely forgotten that he said it
was a girl, they could see that it was a boy,
(10:08):
and nobody said anything ever again until I had the baby.
That makes sense. What question would you most like answered?
(10:29):
How a full defended sheet? I don't know me you
can have that because I'm with you on that one.
I've looked up on the internet how to do it,
and I guess there's a way, but it's not really
exactly how I would want it to be, Like it's
not neat. I agree with you. And also I don't
accept the imperfection, like I think we all spend a
lot of time trying to accommodate imperfection, and we're told
(10:51):
that everything is imperfect, which is completely accurate. There's something
about a fitted sheet. It feels personal, and it also
feels just like bad design and that nobody thought it
through and that there are all kinds of ramifications that
passed me off. Yeah, that's one, that's the practical one.
You know. There's an ex lover of mine who had
a very long love it there off and on for
over a decade. I write about him in my book
(11:13):
and the final time we broke up because any times,
you know, he said he didn't want to commit because
he was trying to protect himself from being hurt. And
I wonder if that worked out for him, if he
suffered over it, because I I don't nestally have a
feeling that you can't ever protect yourself from pain without
blocking yourself from love. So I have a feeling that
(11:37):
he still does suffer over it. So the pain protection
plan didn't work. So if it didn't work, then why
not just choose love if pain is going to happen anyway,
because at least then you have both. But I truly
wonder because I don't know, because I I don't talk
to him anymore, and not because we're on bad terms,
we're not, but because it was just like you know,
when you have a connection with somebody that's so deep
(11:59):
that even talking to them resparks this thing that you
can't you know, it's not gonna work out. Because we
tried a million times, so it's just like, all right,
this is my kryptonite. So maybe let's just like not.
But you know, I'll always love him and Cary love
for him and want nothing but happiness for him. So
I do genuinely wonder if he ever suffered over it,
if his pain protection plan worked or not. I wonder. Wow,
(12:21):
I don't know, like I wonder in the absence of vulnerability,
I don't know. I don't think you can get the
full experience of anything without a certain level of vulnerability.
I really don't. Yeah, I would say that in my
tennis lessons, all the way through to love and shopping,
there has to be a level of revealing the soft underbelly.
(12:42):
I think, yeah, you have to. It's like the light
the dark. Like we said earlier, one doesn't exist without
the others. So you have to accept both in order
to have the full experience. But I think I use
he didn't think so, so you know, so I wonder.
I don't know. I had that with a dude. I
had that with a dude, And it's so funny it
came around and like literally eighteen years later of him
(13:03):
coming and saying, this is why that happened, and he
didn't end up with someone that he loved. He ended
up with somebody who could accommodate the way in which
he wanted to live his life. And he was like,
I never wanted to be in love with you, because
if I was in love with you, I know I
would have hurt you because it was all this other
stuff that I couldn't do. I couldn't let it in.
But there was something about the acknowledging that was satisfying,
(13:24):
you know, and me and this guy he did do
that also ten years later after our first breakup, and
so then I was like, oh my god, this is
finally the time. And I thought he had changed, but
he had changed enough that he could understand that, but
fears and ego eventually crept in and he wasn't able
to sustain it. But I'm proud of myself because, you know,
(13:47):
I basically like let him break my heart three times
over the course of fifteen years, every time thinking something
would change. But I guess it didn't. I guess history
repeats itself, which is why I'm not talking to him
ever again, because well, let's not repeat more history, right, well,
and you never run into him, no, no, he lives
in New York, first of all, and you know we
(14:09):
run in very different circles. Great, I think that whole
definition of insanity of like doing the same thing over
and over again and expect sometimes you have to just
admit that with people. But it's hard because you always
think you want to be able to accommodate change and
growth and the idea that that is possible, but I think, honestly,
sometimes it isn't. And also, like I could believe that
(14:29):
he's changed without having to be there to witness it.
I could think about, like, oh, you know what, that's
why the answer to your question is I wonder if
that's worked out for him, because I know that he
was working on things and I do wish nothing but
the best for him. But I could still hold faith
that his life is going to work out in a
beautiful way without having to be the one who's around
(14:49):
when it works out that way, because that's part of
my ability to change too, right to not engage in
that again? Yeah, yeah, what quality do you like at
least about yourself? I could be a little impatient with
people or just in general with tasks, you know, And
(15:11):
I'm just thinking, like asking your boyfriend to take out
the garbage. That's the thing that that should be done
when it's asked for, not three days later, when more
garbage is piled up, and then he's like, oh, but
I did take it out, and I'm like, yes, three
days after I asked you. You know, these very common
domestic squabbles. But yeah, sort of like to do list
(15:35):
type of things that should seem very ordinary. I get
impatient when they're procrastinated. Can I ask you, because I
know that you come from a lot of women in
your family? Yes, do you have four sisters or three?
Your one of four? I'm one of four, so four
girls in my family. So is everybody very different or
(15:55):
is that something that came from your family of Listen,
there ain't time. There's too many kids. There's too much
stuff to be done, and if I ask you to
do something, you better do it right. Then. I feel
like half and half. I feel like two of us
are kind of impatient with tasks and the other two
are much more relaxed about it. I guess you have
to have someone to be impatient with. Yeah, yeah, there's
(16:19):
two pairs of us. So it's like my older two
sisters are only a year apart, and myself and my
younger sister are only two years apart, and there's a
big gap in the middle. So I feel like each
pair balances each other out. So in the older pair,
there's somebody who's more on task and somebody who's more relaxed,
and then the younger pair, like I'm the extrovert, my
(16:40):
little sister is the introvert. We kind of balanced each
other out, is how it worked. That's really cool. I
like that. Yeah, me and my sister sometimes we switch roles.
That's the weird thing. Sometimes I'll be the taskmaster and
she'll be the supplicant, and then we flip. It's interesting.
I think I drive insane. What would be your last meal? Oh?
(17:04):
Probably Japanese chicken curry. It's like a comfort food for me,
and my mom used to make that. Like I just
even thinking about how she would be, like browning the
onions in the skillet before making it. I love it.
It's so good. Does she teach you how to cook? No,
you don't cook. I don't cook. She taught me a
little bit of a little bit. I take it back,
(17:25):
she tried to teach me how to cook. I didn't
pay attention. Did she teach your younger sister? No, My
younger sister is probably the same as me. My older
two sisters are much better cooks, and I think she
probably taught them better. I feel like the older kids
they have a more thorough experience with everything, right, because
by the younger kids, the parents are like fuck it,
I get on with it. I'm exhausted. Yeah, like do
(17:48):
whatever you want? You care? Yeah, exactly. It's funny. My
son is becoming a better cook. Now. How old is
he was fourteen yesterday? Oh my god, yeah, it's bananas.
Has gone by so fast that I know. It's crazy.
You don't feel you just don't feel any older. I
don't feel any older. I don't feel any different. I
(18:09):
don't feel any different than I was when I was
twenty six. I mean, thank god, I am very different,
but I don't feel any different at all from the
day that I had him. And it's the weirdest thing.
In the new sneakers that I gave him, he is
now taller than me. Oh my god, it's amazing. It's crazy,
Like I'm they're still going do you remember when we did?
And he's like, yeah, I totally remember that. It was awesome.
(18:29):
Now burgers and I'm like, oh, I suppose so. And
now he takes my hand across the street. Oh my god,
like I'm a little old lady. It's the nicest thing
I have to say. How beautiful he's fantastic. How old
is your daughter? She just turned to My god, she's
a baby, but oh my god. It's so fun though,
(18:52):
just watching her become a person, to go from this
little nugget to like, the other day, I gave her
my almost empty Lacroix plan because as if I give
her a full one, she'll just dump the whole thing out.
And she she like took it and trying to simp
from it. Then she goes nothing there. You know, this
is a two year old, you know, like she still
goes in the corner to announce that she's pooping, you know,
(19:14):
like in her diaper. Oh my god, I love it.
I know, it's really fun. Nothing there. You can't fool me.
There's nothing nothing here, nothing in this scan. I know.
They do go from being these like little drunk blobes
totally just sort of teaching, and then suddenly they turn
around and they're like and they also remember they're getting
the measure of us. That's sort of watching and observing
(19:36):
and going like, I know this person is going to
give me absolutely everything. How can I manipulate the rest
out of them? Yeah, they're clever, They're clever and smart,
and we made them. Yeah, and it's our own fault.
(20:03):
In your life. Can you tell me about something that
has grown out of a personal disaster? Um? Yeah, you know,
you know, I mentioning my book a lot, but because
my book is very formative for me, and there's a
chapter in which I talk about a thing that happened
to me in eighth grade that I could never get
over the pain of. And I've had objectively worse things
happened to me in my life. It was just basically
(20:25):
teacher accusing me of not really writing my term paper
and like plasiarizing. But it's something that like I just
could never get over, from when I'm twelve to now
when I'm forty, still can't get over. But in the
process of writing it, I took the time to think
about how it also helped me in a way that's
so obvious right that I can't believe it took me,
(20:48):
you know, almost thirty years to realize because you know,
she thought I plas your eyes. She didn't have any
proof because I didn't plas your eyes. So what she
did was she went to all my other teachers and
made them say to my face, like, don't believe you're
good enough to have written it. And that was her proof,
I know, to make me cry even talking about it now,
because it was like, because you can't find the proof,
(21:09):
you know, you're going to make all the teachers say
to my face, you're not good enough. But the only
teacher who believed that I was good enough to have
written it was my drama teacher. And I'm like, oh
my god, how did it take me thirty years to
realize that the only teacher and I didn't used to
want to be an actress who believed in me was
my drama teacher and I ended up becoming an actress.
(21:31):
I mean, it's like, it's crazy to think about, but
that's like basificly something that has stuck with me, and
I didn't realize for thirty years how it has shaped
me and helped me in a way that I really
appreciate because I was just focusing on the pain of
it so much. I'm really sorry that happened. Oh it's okay. No,
it's the worst. It's the word to be accused of
something that you didn't do, and to not be able
(21:53):
to put that down. That eighth grade teacher and my
drama teacher, Mr. Frazell, who believed in me, that really
altered my life. Did you talk to your drama teacher
about that whole thing? He unfortunately passed away. I looked
back for him when I was writing it, and I
realized and he passed away. I think you like a
heart attack a while ago. So that made me very sad.
But the teacher who accused me, I did not when
(22:16):
I wrote it. But I did reach out to her
ten years after it happened, when I was in college
and going through a lot of therapy because it's still
within my heart, and I called the into years trying
to prove to her. I was like, hey, remember me
in eighth grade. I really wrote that and it was
wrong of you to do that to a kid, like,
oh my god. I tried to give her a piece
of my mind. It didn't work. Writing me essay was
much more healing. Yeah, I bet I'm glad that you
(22:38):
did that. Yeah, And I wish that Mr. Frazell was
still alive for me to thank him, but by the
time I wrote that and realized that he had passed away. Unfortunately.
It's amazingly gifts. I mean, I hope everybody has a
teacher like that. I don't think everybody does, but I
certainly had a couple. It's so meaningful. It stays with you,
like whatever it is they gave you, or they defended
for you or they helped shape, stays with you for
(22:59):
you whole entire life, the whole life. Yeah, I was
writing your book enormously cathartic because there you are, actually
like to write a book like, it's quite something, I think,
to tell your stories to open up. Did that feel
like it answered some of that in a larger way
for yourself? Yeah, because I might have told that story
(23:22):
million times in therapy. The telling of it versus the
putting it down in language makes you think about it
in a different way, and it actually makes it kind
of more real. It's funny because it's like, sometimes it
feels like physical wounds feel more real than emotional wounds
because you have the scar to prove it right, But
emotional wounds have just as much of an effect on you,
(23:44):
and it's almost feels like putting it down in written
language is like the physical proof that it happened to you.
And I think that's why it was healing, because it
opens the wound into like the physical area, so you like, oh,
see it, this is a thing that happens. Now that
I've put it in language, I can help give it
(24:05):
the time and carrot needs to heal. And so it was. Yes,
talk is great. I've been a therapy for like decades
and I love it, but writing it down in language
is something that is definitely very underrated. And with healing,
talking is more cathartic. Writing was more healing. Yeah, that's
a really good way of putting it. Talking is cathartic.
Writing is healing. Yes, exactly. I was told to journal.
(24:28):
It's hard. I was told to journal so often and
it's so hard to do it. But it was actually
easy to then go. You know, it's not the journaling.
I need to write these hard stories like I need
to or I want to try, And I think exactly
what you're saying, you need a structure to it. Yes,
isn't it interesting that rather than it like calcifying as
you say it, like I love the idea of words
of scar tissue of proof of emotional trauma, even with
(24:50):
a small tea or a big tea. Constance, thank you
so much. I so appreciate your time. It's great talking
to you. It really is fantastic. Thank you. I appreciate
that you can enjoy more of Constance's stories in her
new book, Making a Scene Out Now. Mini Questions is
(25:16):
hosted and written by Me Mini Driver, supervising producer Aaron Kaufman,
Producer Morgan Levoy, Research assistant Marissa Brown. Original music Sorry
Baby by Mini Driver, Additional music by Aaron Kaufman. Executive
produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks to Jim Nikolay,
(25:40):
Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Nique Oppenheim
at w kPr, de La Pescador, Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg,
and for constantly solicited tech support, Henry Driver
Host
Minnie Driver
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