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October 16, 2024 45 mins

Jon finds key photos — and interviews A.I. "Robert."

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may
not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses
sexual assault.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
His violence potential to me is unlimited.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Anybody that could slip their own children's throats and then
burn them up.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
He's a definite danger to society.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
That's former FBI agent Bob Caldwell speaking to a reporter
twenty years ago. What he said then remains true today.
If alive, Robert Fischer is in extreme danger not only
to society, but most critically, if he has a new
family to them. It's therefore imperative that we find Fisher,
not only to bring him to justice, but to avoid

(00:38):
further bloodshed. If that seems impossible, it's not. In nineteen
seventy one, John List killed his family and vanished. By
nineteen eighty six, at the fifteen year mark, many people
thought he was dead. Newspapers ran headlines like the perfect crime,
and it was the perfect crime until it wasn't. Investigators

(00:58):
never gave up. In nineteen eighty six, a prosecutor told
the Associated Press quote, when you have no evidence to
the contrary, you must assume he's still alive. Basically, what
we have here, he said, is a Casper milk toast
who stepped out of his role, murdered his family, and
then stepped back into the role and disappeared. A month later,

(01:18):
Inspired by the case, Hollywood released The Stepfather, a movie
about a man who kills his family, assumes a new identity,
and marries a widow with a fifteen year old daughter.

Speaker 4 (01:28):
Oh, that guy had felt who had killed his whole
family cut him up with knives.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Maybe they disappointed him.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
When asked about John List, the screenwriter said, my first
guess is the real life man killed himself in such
a way that he was never found. My second guess
is that the movie would be fairly close to what
might have transpired. Meaningless escaped, changed his name and started
a new life.

Speaker 5 (01:50):
Who am I here?

Speaker 2 (01:53):
You're a very bad girl.

Speaker 6 (01:57):
The Stepfather?

Speaker 1 (02:00):
I believe he meaning List is alive. Retired Westfield police
chief James Rand said, fifteen years is a long time.
The prosecutor said, but it's not an impossible task. We'll
continue to track him and someday who knows it sounds
so desperate, so empty, five ten, twenty three years later
to say, no, really, guys, we'll get him. Someday, But

(02:24):
someday came America's Most Wanted featured the case. An ex
neighbor phoned in a lead, and on June first, nineteen
eighty nine, police arrested List. He was living under a
new name with a new wife in a new city.
So yes, this is possible, but not without your help.
You know what solved the List case, publicity? You know

(02:44):
who solved it? An audience member with Fisher. That could
be you from iHeartRadio and neon thirty three. I'm John
Walzac and this is missing in Arizona, the story of
a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his wife and kids,

(03:04):
blowing up their suburban home, and escaping into the wilderness.
Twenty three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher, and I
need your help. Let's start with a profile of Fisher,
not a biography, only stuff that can help catch him.
Fisher was born on April thirteenth, nineteen sixty one. As

(03:27):
of this recording, he's sixty three. He's six feet tall.
When he disappeared, he weighed one hundred and ninety pounds.
Obviously that could have changed, but he cared a lot
about his weight.

Speaker 5 (03:38):
So I doubt.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
He's emaciated or obese, probably still in the one hundred
and eighty to two hundred and ten pound range. He
had light brown, almost blonde hair by now it's likely
gray or mixed, though he might die it to stave
off aging. He has blue eyes and a gold tooth
his upper left first by cuspid, the tooth right behind
your canines, your fangs. He might still have it, he

(04:01):
might not. Dentists, hygienists, oral surgeons, pay attention. Does this
match any of your patients. Fisher also has a scar
on his lower back midline of the lumbo sacral level
from surgery doctors, surgeons, nurses, Pay attention. Does this match
any of your patients. Fisher has small feet in the
eight to ten range, likely a nine point five. He

(04:24):
keeps a clean cut, neat appearance. He probably has short
hair and little to no facial hair, maybe a short beard.
He's casual jeans, T shirts, flannels, boots, sneakers, baseball caps, bandanas, sunglasses.
He suffers from back and knee pain. He might be
dependent on, if not addicted to, opioids. John and Mary

(04:45):
Beth Rodin Fisher family friends tell me their son remembers
Robert having a quote weird toe. That might mean something,
it might not. It could have been a one time
fungal infection, or he could have a deformed toe. Their
son was young is murky. Fisher rarely drank, but when
he did, he liked bourbon. He constantly chewed tobacco, winter

(05:07):
green Copenhagen. He might still chew or smoke or vape.
He liked to hunt, fish, camp. He liked pickup trucks,
country music, guns. He wasn't super political in the nineties,
but he could be today. And Ammo box in the
rubble of his house had a sticker on it for
the NRA. Another had a sticker that read control Criminals,
not Guns. Fisher wasn't a big sports guy, just the

(05:30):
casual Diamondbacks and Raiders fan. He liked dogs, not cats.
He enjoyed nature centric TV shows vicarious adventure, but he
stayed close to home. He didn't have a passport. He
only traveled internationally while in the Navy. Many people speculate
that he's now hiding overseas. I doubt it. He's a
creature of habit. He sticks to what he knows to

(05:53):
be safe. Though I tried to find a list of
places he visited while in the Navy. To see which
international spots he might know just a bit, I filed
a record's request and found out that he served from
nineteen seventy nine to eighty two aboard the USS below Wood,
an amphibious assault ship based in San Diego. During that period,
he visited Victoria, British Columbia, and Mast Lawn, Mexico. The

(06:16):
Navy later deployed him further abroad for six months. On
April twenty first, nineteen eighty one, the bellow Wood rescued
one hundred and thirty three Vietnamese refugees, including fifty three children,
from leaking boats in the South China Sea. So I
knew he was in or near Asia, But no matter
what I did, I couldn't find a list of ports
of call, not in his navy file, not online. Finally,

(06:38):
our producer, Hannah Rose Snyder, tracked down a copy on
microfilm at a government facility near DC. To access it,
we hired a researcher who obtained this list.

Speaker 7 (06:49):
San Diego, Pearl Harbor, Okinawa, Japan, po Hung, South Korea,
Hong Kong, Subit Bay, the Philippines, Singapore, Colombo, Sri Lanka, Diego, Garcia, Freemantle, Australia,
Pateya Beach, Thailand.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
And the waters off Lanslown, Australia. Though it's unclear whether
or not he went ashore. In theory, Fisher could be
in any of these places, but I doubt it. He's
likely still in the US, somewhere out west, maybe a
remote corner of Arizona like Lake Havasu or southern California,
which he knew well, or Las Vegas where he could

(07:23):
easily blend in, or even Phoenix. In two thousand and one,
he had a chance to escape to Mexico. Americans could
cross the border without a passport until two thousand and nine,
the day the house exploded, He had enough time to
flee to the border only three hours away, but he didn't.
In fact, he didn't even flee the state, at least
not immediately. He stayed in Arizona. Fisher was a creature

(07:46):
of habit one key reason I think he's still in
the US. Also, he was racist, specifically against Mexicans. Several
people tell me that he made anti Mexican remarks. Not
to mention, he didn't speak Spanish or any other foreign language.
Just English. Finally, one of his friends, a former coworker
who doesn't want to be named, revealed something new, something

(08:08):
intriguing about Fisher's back pain.

Speaker 8 (08:10):
When I would notice it was associated with like weather,
so with like arthritis type symptoms. And in Arizona we've
got the monsoons. So in the morning he would be
perfectly fine. And you meet up with him like around lunchtime,
and you know, making a comment like, oh, but a
storm must becoming because my back's starting to hurt, that
type of thing. And then I know in the winter time,

(08:31):
when it was cooler or colder, his back seemed to
hurn him more.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
So if he did flee somewhere and you don't see
it being somewhere stormy or cold. No, this is fascinating.
Cold weather and drops in barometric pressure caused Robert pain.
But he was fine in the heat. He liked the heat.

Speaker 8 (08:50):
I think it would be much harder for him to
live a comfortable life in a cold climate.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
Let's keep building a prof What about Fisher's personality. It's
unclear if he was ever diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder,
likely not, but he certainly had OCD style tendencies He
kept everything extremely clean. He disliked disorder. He liked routine.
He wanted to eat dinner every night at five pm sharp.

(09:19):
He generally followed the rules and appeared to be pro
law enforcement. On a hunting trip with a friend, he
was pulled over twice by Saint Trooper's. Both times he
remained courteous and respectful. Robert was a minimalist. He didn't
like clutter. A friend and former neighbor, Paul, tells me
that inside the Fisher house, one room didn't even have furniture.

(09:39):
According to Mary's friend Kim Davidson, Robert had strict rules
about home decor.

Speaker 9 (09:44):
Even when you went back into the bedrooms, there wasn't
a lot of personality there. It was just spare bones.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Why do you think that is well?

Speaker 9 (09:51):
Come to find out, it was because Robert wouldn't allow
a well to be painted a color. He wouldn't allow
the kids to hang up things in their bedroom.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
He didn't even let Mary put up quilts that her
mom made.

Speaker 9 (10:02):
The quails were quite beautiful, and they just sat up there,
pulled it on the.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Shelf because Robert wouldn't let her hang them up. Correct
Another one of Mary's friends who doesn't want to be named,
tells me the same thing. She often stayed with the
Fishers while visiting from out of town. Quote, they didn't
put bedspreads on their beds. It was just like a sheet.
It always kind of looked like they were just moving in.
And I'd be like, why don't you guys like get
a quilt? The mom knit, she was super crafty, Like,

(10:29):
why don't we just do something a little decorative, And
Mary's like, oh, Robert doesn't like that because he thinks
it gets dusty or dirty or something. Robert seemed to
have a thing about dirt and germs. He was also
very particular about his food. According to a police report,
he never ate at fast food restaurants, and quote in
regular restaurants was so extreme with questions about food and

(10:52):
its preparation he would embarrass friends and family. One time,
Robert and a friend had launched at a truck stop
near Tucson. Robert gave the waitress quote such a hard time,
wanting to know what items were being put into the food,
how the food was prepared. He was also a cheap skate.
He refused to pay for air conditioning in blazing Arizona.
John and Mary Beth Rodin tell me that at work,

(11:15):
Robert would save dirty hemostats tools that clamp onto blood
vessels to prevent bleeding.

Speaker 10 (11:20):
They'd throw them all out when they were done with them,
and he'd collect them, and he'd have like twenty or
thirty of them, and he'd take them to Don's sports
shop and sell them or trade them for merchandise because
the fly fishermen like them because they're really good at
ripping flies. It's like a bent or taking hooks out
of fish.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
And he would rescue them from work.

Speaker 11 (11:38):
Yeah, he'd take them out of the garbage.

Speaker 10 (11:39):
Probably after proceedures this, he supposedly throw them all away.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
I asked the Rodents if media portrayals of Robert have
been accurate, not entirely. They say he was not some maladjusted,
asocial loaner. He could be quiet, soft spoken, but also congenial, funny, sarcastic.

Speaker 9 (11:58):
He didn't like to be by himself. He can go
for a day or two, but I don't think he
could ever.

Speaker 10 (12:02):
Very gregarious, love talking to people.

Speaker 7 (12:04):
I don't think he could live by himself for an
extended period of time.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
So this idea that he would run off and be
a hermit and just want to be alone.

Speaker 12 (12:10):
I don't think so he had to have an audience.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
This lines up with what Mary's mom told police. Robert
was very outgoing. She said he had many friends or
at least friendly acquaintances in both his personal life and
at work. He got along well with patients too. One
colleague said, quote older ladies, he was very, very delicate
with them. Another said he was quote very sociable. One

(12:34):
time he treated a female Phoenix police officer who was
preparing to donate a kidney to a family member. Robert
quote really got into that, and not in a sexual way,
just chatting. He did it with men too, quote Whenever
it was somebody that liked to hunt, had guns, or
had anything to do with the law, he would be
there holding that groin for about twenty minutes, and normally

(12:55):
we do it in about ten minutes. It was a
standing joke. A cop asked what he meant by quote
holding groins, coworker, hold pressure so they don't bleed.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Cop.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Okay. So in other words, he favored people that were
out doorsy, oh yeah, and he liked law enforcement, oh yeah. However,
another colleague said Robert could be aloof quote. He'd come
up to you in the cafeteria. We'd be having a conversation.
He'd sit down, he'd bring something up, we'd start talking
about it, and then he'd just get up and leave.
He could be creepy too. On a hunting trip, he

(13:26):
toyed with a friend. He went down one trail, the
friend another. Both had walkie talkies. Robert told the friend
where to meet, exact spot, exact time. The friend considered
it a game. Halfway up the trail, Robert's voice crackle through.
I can see you, he said. The friend looked up
through binoculars. He spotted Robert on a mountaintop. I've been

(13:47):
watching you the entire time.

Speaker 5 (13:49):
He said.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
While hunting, Robert also used varmint calls. He vocally mimicked
small injured animals trying to lure predators so he could
shoot them, and he played tapes with the sounds of
dying rabbits. Not abnormal many hunters do this, but given
the later context, creepy. When he spoke to his hunting
buddy Jim Rodin, he.

Speaker 13 (14:10):
Liked to get quiet, like like like a tail off,
and be quiet, you know, even though I sir, because I'm.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Kind of crazy, and when he wasn't mimicking dying animals,
he tried.

Speaker 13 (14:20):
To mimic a little bit of a redneck drawl, like
a good old boy outdoorsman. Tried to do that, tried
to sound a little bit Western cowboy.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Do you think it was real?

Speaker 13 (14:29):
That was probably something that was rehearsed. That became a
part of him because he loved that good old boy
Americana military, redneck outdoorsman, Copenhagen, tobacco fishing. He liked that
kind of Cabella's past pro shop, though it wasn't there

(14:50):
at the time. Yeah, he loved all that, you know,
had his own little fishing boat and pickup truck.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Robert often discussed religion with Jim, a pastor. People have
different opinions about how spiritual Robert really was and how
much was just for show. I don't know, but he
read the Bible at work, attended church, and certainly felt guilt.
In nineteen ninety nine when he cheated on Mary, he
could have remained silent. Instead, he confessed he appeared to

(15:17):
feel genuine remorse, which would indicate a savable soul, not
a psychopath with an evil, irredeemable core. If Robert chooses

(15:52):
not to surrender, and yes, I know he likely won't.
How can we find him? Let me split this into
three parts number one and passwords number two, his face
number three, his voice jeans. Let's say Robert has a
new family. Let's say he has kids after twenty three years.
He could even have adult children. They don't know who

(16:14):
he is. They use a commercial DNA service like ancestry
or twenty three and me this is a surefire way
to find Robert. It would take luck and cooperation from
his family. His first family, mom, sisters, nieces, nephews, someone.
I don't know if they've used any of these services.
If not, I encourage them to asap. If they do,

(16:36):
and Robert has a new family and his new kids
upload their DNA, boom, we found him. Law enforcement is
limited here by privacy laws and corporate regulations. Investigators can
compare samples of Robert's parents' DNA to open source databases
like jedmatch. They should do this asap, but the best
option is for Robert's family to help voluntarily passwords. Our

(17:00):
researcher Paul Gemperlin had a brilliant idea. If investigators have
a list of passwords Robert used before the murders, email, banking,
et cetera. They can compare them to databases of passwords
that leaked during the past twenty three years. Let's say
Robert used a highly unique password, for example, Robert nineteen
sixty one loves Scottsdale. Law enforcement can scan databases to

(17:23):
see if it shows up anywhere after April two thousand
and one. If so, it might indicate that Robert did
escape and start a new life. Best case, it might
even point us to where he went. It's a Hail Mary, sure,
But the thing about hail Mary's sometimes.

Speaker 5 (17:37):
They work his face.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
If you've seen any photo of Robert, it's likely the
photo from a nineteen ninety nine family portrait, the one
everyone uses from Wikipedia to the FBI. In it, Mary
Brittany and Bobby smile. Robert purses his lips. I get
why it became the key photo in this case. It's
high resolution, taken less than two years before the murders.

(18:00):
I've only been able to track down twenty eight photos
of Robert as an adult, including this one. The problem
is it seems off, like it doesn't represent him. Well,
I'm sure you have photos like this yes, it's you,
but it doesn't really look like you. Maybe it's the angle,
or the lighting, or the lens or the editing. I
don't know. I never met Robert, but people who did

(18:23):
agree with me, including Miss Honey, Britney's teacher, the second
to last person to see and speak with Robert the
night of the murders.

Speaker 12 (18:30):
That picture is not how I remember him, and it
hardly recognize him from that picture. So to me, I
feel like we've been going around now for twenty years
with an incorrect simulation and incorrect image and persona of
this person that we're looking for, which has worked to
his advantage.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Miss Honey is talking about two images, first, the nineteen
ninety nine photo, second the ace progressed image based on
that photo produced by the FBI in twenty sixteen. The
FBI images, how can I say this nicely, not the best.
It looks like they took the nineteen ninety nine photo,
threw on some mister potato head facial hair and said

(19:10):
this could be what he looks like today. When I
show it to one person who knew Robert, they literally laugh.
The other two photos the FBI uses on its wanted
poster aren't great either. One shows Robert with crazy eyes,
another makes him look like he has three chins. I'm
not trying to be needlessly antagonistic here. It's not the
FBI's fault that Robert blew up his house, incinerating most

(19:31):
photos of him. But if the images were using to
find him are at best off and at worst laughable,
we have a problem. I knew this early on, so
one of my main goals was to find new photos
of him. I ask every person I interview if they
have any I start with twenty six photos. I end
with twenty eight. That's how tough it is. I find

(19:52):
two new photos, only two, both given to me by
John and Mary Beth Rodin. One is dated August sixteenth,
nineteen nine ninety seven, taken on a camping trip at
Holly Lake. Robert stands in front of a white pickup truck,
wearing a gray T shirt tucked into jeans, a baseball cap, sunglasses,
and a watch. Bobby Junior, a month shy of seven,

(20:12):
sits on the hood, his legs dangling off the side,
in a white shirt, red shorts, a blue hat, and
little white sneakers. Both face the camera. It's sunny. The
other is dated December ninth, nineteen ninety nine, meaning it's
now the most recent photo of Robert known to exist,
a picture, to my knowledge, never obtained by law enforcement.

(20:33):
In it, he stands on a dirt road next to
a different truck, wearing a long sleeved blue shirt tucked
into jeans, boots, a white baseball cap, and sunglasses. It
was taken in the Apache Sickgreaves National Forest during a
hunt four Christmas trees. There's a tree in the pickup bed.
Robert turns its head looks right at the camera. In

(20:53):
addition to these photos, the Rodents give me a few
new videos of Robert. One in particular, taken in nineteen
ninety four, is import It provides a clear shot of
Robert's smiling. You see his gold tooth. I decide to
take all images, every single photo and high quality videos
still and work with a forensic artist to create a
new age progressed image to see what Robert might look

(21:14):
like today. In fact, I work with three world renowned
artists at the same time. None are aware the others
are also working on this case. I want to conduct
an experiment to see, when given the same source material,
what each of them can produce. It's the first time
this has ever been done. Three talented artists on the
same case at the same time, starting with.

Speaker 14 (21:37):
Lois Gibson and I got into this because someone murdered me.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Well, I didn't die.

Speaker 9 (21:41):
That he almost murdered me for fun really got on
my nerves.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
I wanted justice.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
In nineteen seventy one, a man forced his way into
Lois's apartment, choked her for twenty five minutes, and sexually
assaulted her. She nearly died by chance. Six weeks later,
while driving down a nearby street, Lois recognized her assailant
as police arrested him for another crime. She later moved
to Texas, got a fine Arts degree, painted three thousand

(22:07):
portraits on the San Antonio Riverwalk, and became a forensic
artist in Houston.

Speaker 5 (22:13):
Next we have Hill Zmam.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Not only is gill an artist, he's also an author.
Last year, he published a book called The Mindful Interview
Method Retrieving cognitive Evidence. Gill view's memory as easily tainted
evidence that should be carefully uncovered, like a fingerprint, a fiber,
a drop of blood, Gather it mindfully without altering it.
He strongly opposes, for example, the use of reference images.

Speaker 15 (22:37):
To simulate the memory. Hey, was his nose like this,
eyes like this, and so forth. I believe that once
you do that, you're contaminating someone's memory and they cannot
distinguish between what they actually remembered to what you're actually
showing them.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
He's talking about sketches based on witness memory, not age
progressed images based on photos. But still it's a smart observation. Finally,
we have Michael W. Streed, who we worked with previously
on season two Missing on nine to eleven with eights
progressed images.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
The goal is not to have people praise your art
and tell you what a great artist you are. The
actual object is to catch this murderous suspect.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
This is a critical point. These artists are not trying
to craft award winning photorealistic images of how missing fugitives
definitely look today, because they don't know how they look today.
An image should be just familiar enough to make someone
do a double take and say, hey, that kind of
looks like my neighbor Joe or my friend Susie. You
don't want to gamble everything on a very particular vision

(23:38):
that ends up being wrong. Michael Gill and Lois are
all talented. They have different methods blending science and art.
Until we find Robert Fisher, we won't know who did
the best job. That said, I had to choose a
winner the main image for our new wanted poster. I
chose Michael. I think the most important thing to capture
here Fisher's eyes, your smile. Can you speak to me

(24:01):
about how you did that in the end, because I
think you really nailed it, you know.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
The post picture. I looked at the famous picture you
talked about that was used before in a previous age progression.
There was some intensity to them, and in some of
the pictures you provided me they were all they were
like buggy, just crazy, just bulging in your face kind
of eyes, angry, intense eyes. But that's not how the
person walks around. So I looked at some of the

(24:26):
other normal shots, the more candid shots, more natural, relaxed look,
and he still had this intensity. You know, the eyes
were not so buggy, they weren't so bulging, but they
had this intense I don't want to say crazy look,
but just this intensity. It would make you look at
the guy and say, there's something about this guy that's
not quite right. So we were able to go somewhere

(24:47):
between normal, relax normalize, friendly eyes and not so buggy
crazy to this intensity that I believe would stay with
him over time.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
What about the smile.

Speaker 4 (24:57):
The smile was just kind of one of those smiles
where one corner of the mouth was maybe a little
bit more lifted than the other, and maybe both sides
are a little bit even. But they kind of curled
up at the end and had this It was more
than just a cat who ate the canary look the
look of a guy that Sag got this. It's more
of a look combined with the eyes that gave him
almost a quiet, diabolical look that I think people would

(25:21):
notice in their conversations with him, or if they saw
him on the streets somewhere with that same smirky, diabolical
smile and those intense eyes watching them.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Michael and I went through several rounds of edits of
the age progressed image. He gave me a rough draft,
I gave him feedback. We ended up, I think, with
something great to craft it. He reviewed every single photo
of Fisher. He chose two as primary references, the famous
nineteen ninety nine portrait and the new nineteen ninety seven
photo given to me by the Rodents. That photo is

(25:53):
especially valuable. The sun lights up Robert's face from the side.
His lips are pursed, his mouth slightly ajar. You see
the sinews of his neck, the lines of his cheeks.
His head looks more compact with a pointier chin than
the ninety nine portrait, which makes it look like a
beefy square. I think your image is absolutely stellar. It
is the line between something that is too vague and

(26:17):
artsy and something that is too photo realistic and might
not jog somebody out there to recognize Fisher under an
assumed identity as Fisher. It is, in my opinion, the
perfect line. While working with Lois Gill and Michael, I
stumble upon another artist, A fourth artist. His name is
Jill is a thirty nine year old creative developer in Belgium.

(26:40):
He founded a project called the AI Witness Report, which
uses artificial intelligence to convert police sketches into photorealistic images.
He was inspired in part by his dad, Ludo, a
forensic dentist and a talented artist. What first caught my
eye was Jeal's conversion of the famous dB Cooper sketch
His work is impressive. You can check it out on Instagram, AI,

(27:02):
dot Witness, dot Report. With Geel's help, I conduct another experiment.
I sent him all three AH progressed images, the new
ones of Robert Fisher. He runs them through AI.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
My main tool that I use is stable effusion. It's
like an image generation model. And what interests me about
stable fusion is that it's an open source system, so
you're not bound to the limitations of like a system
by OpenAI or microstoft.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
In go age, progressed images out come photorealistic versions of them. Okay,
it's not that simple. In fact, it takes Giel at
least seven to eight hours to do each one. In
the end, for the Fisher case, even Giel agrees that
it's better to use the old school images, not their
photorealistic counterparts.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
The sketch is never going to be super accurate, but
the advantage of the sketch is that it guests a
wider net because it's a bit fake, and there are
more people that look like a sketch then there will
be people that look like if very detailed for the
realistic image, you're like, oh no, that's not Tom, that's
a different person. It's a real person, but it's not
my neighbor Tom. You know, all the while your neighbor

(28:08):
Tom is the killer and then he gets away with it.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
To view all of the aids, progressed images and yields
AI conversions, go to neon thirty three dot com and
sign up for our email list. If you like this show,
please download our first two seasons, Missing in Alaska and

(28:32):
Missing on nine to eleven. For updates, visit meon thirty
three dot com or follow me on Twitter at John
waalzac j O n w A l Czak. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 5 (28:59):
His voice.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
As far as I know, a fugitive has never been
located based on the sound of their voice, especially not
one as high profile as Robert Fisher. As I said previously,
when he escaped, when he burned down his house, he
made a big mistake. He left his fire safe locked
and it worked the safe I mean inside. Police found
four VHS tapes containing about six and a half hours

(29:23):
of home videos in grainy footage from the late eighties
and early nineties. You see and hear Robert Fisher, which
allows me to conduct one final experiment. Early on. I
have an idea, what if we use AI to recreate
Fisher's voice. Seems simple right by now we've all seen
and heard the magic of generative AI. The voice of

(29:43):
a dead Frank Sinatra singing Get Low by Lil John,
the voice of a dead Johnny Cash singing Barbie Girl
by Aqua. Here's the problem. Those work because we have
a ton of high quality sample audio of both Sinatra
and Cash, with Fisher not so much. AI is not
not yet at the point where you can just throw
in a few scraps of lo fi eighties audio and

(30:04):
pop out a high res cloned model of someone's voice.
You need good source audio, preferably a lot of it.
So my first task is to figure out how much
audio we have of Robert. The answer unfortunately, not a lot.
You can only hear him in a tiny percentage of
the home videos. So again I ask everyone for help.
Do you have any other video and or audio of him? Again,

(30:28):
I strike out, except with John and Mary Beth Rodin,
who find and share five additional previously unpublished videos of Robert,
taken in nineteen ninety three and ninety four. These clips
are brief but extremely helpful, in part because the Rodents
had a high quality video camera. I spend a week
painstakingly combing through every second of available footage from the

(30:50):
Firesafe and the Rodents. I find two hundred and forty
one clips of Robert's voice, ranging from one second to
sixty two seconds long. I log every in a Google sheet.
I categorize each clip best, great, good, okay. The okay
audio is too low quality to help us, so in
the end we're left with two point seven to two

(31:12):
minutes of best audio, two point one to two minutes
of great audio, and six point six to eight minutes
of good audio. Eleven point five to two minutes total. Again,
not a lot. I'm now going to play the seven
best clips to give you an idea of what we're
working with. The first three are from videos the Rodents
gave me. They've never aired before publicly, nor were they

(31:34):
ever obtained by law enforcement. The next four we're rescued
from the fire safe from the rubble. Listen carefully to
Robert's voice. When the audio jumps, it's because we cut
out other people's voices for privacy's sake.

Speaker 5 (31:46):
Clip one, but boy.

Speaker 16 (31:49):
Smile, you're on candid camera, boy, so say cheese.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
Here you go.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Clip two, really good.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Good. Come here boy, Okay, stay, rugger, good.

Speaker 4 (32:06):
Dogs, good dog.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Clip three.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
It's little beep for there now, Bob, go touch a lot,
Go touch a lot. Okay, rug, Hey, you guys, get
around the dog.

Speaker 17 (32:22):
Stay rugs stay.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Clip four four pound capish at Swallow Lake.

Speaker 17 (32:29):
And he tries to say a cop more than that,
but no, it was only seventeen four pounders. I must
say it did a good good job last night.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Kicking him out. Wait a second, here comes someone. Oh
it's Danielle. Danielle. What's you doing back here? Girl? Huh?
Talk to me?

Speaker 17 (32:47):
What's your tongue sticking out for? Okay, let's see what's
going on over here. I think kids are still putting
none there she's rugger.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Come here, come here boy. Okay, Hope, hope, Hope. Sit
there you go, bigger, lay down.

Speaker 9 (33:08):
Sit.

Speaker 17 (33:09):
It's too hot on the ground here. We must remember
we live in Arizona. He's going in this corner. Chad,
get that wagon going, boy, will you hit him out?

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Hang on tight?

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Brett Clip five.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Chad wan take pictures of his big muscles. Here he is,
and here's Brittan. Let's hear your big muscles. Bretton. Okay,
and Danielle. Where's your big muscles? Okay, everybody in their
big muscles?

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Clip six.

Speaker 14 (33:34):
Hey, Brittany, are you glad Chad and Danielle came down
to see you. Are you sad that they have to
go home today? Do you wish they could stay just
a little longer and play with you? Yeah? Would you
share your toys with them? He would if they could
stay longer, you'd share your toys with them.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
I believe you. I believe you.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Clip seven.

Speaker 17 (33:55):
Okay, Brittany, take a couple of steps this way, so
when I said go, you can come already, come this
way a little bit.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Walk this way, britt a little further. Keep comment, keep comment.
Okay right there, right there.

Speaker 16 (34:08):
Okay, Brittany, you got you gonna have to run fast
to beat these two clouds. Okay, on your mark when
I say go, go, britt on your mark, Get set
go go bred.

Speaker 17 (34:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
That's it. The seven best clips, with everything cataloged. I
now turn to tech. I research AI voice cloning products.
We need something high quality, something professional, not a phone app.
It takes months, but we reached an agreement with a
company called Altered AI. Altered has worked on many major projects,
most of which it can't discuss because of non disclosure agreements.

(34:48):
One notable example is public though for the twenty twenty
three film Air, Altered recreated the voice of a young
Michael Jordan. We're lucky then to partner with them. Air
had a seventy to ninety million dollar budget, US not
so much. I chat my zoom with Altered CEO my
name is. I asked me, honest, what he thought when

(35:09):
he got our request creativity?

Speaker 18 (35:11):
You give someone a spool, and you said, I just
gave him a spoon, and suddenly he starts sculpturing something.

Speaker 6 (35:16):
Right, you see.

Speaker 18 (35:17):
People using in a completely unpredictable ways. So very interesting
to see how people can use the tool to create
something completely new that may be a new form of heart.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
That's fascinating that you say that, How do we rank
on the ranking of bizarre requests that you've received running
this company?

Speaker 6 (35:35):
Like, I'm think people who have more bizarre like Like,
I think the best I've ever heard was something like
I want to be famous like my dad, so please
let me clane his voice.

Speaker 11 (35:48):
I'm going to be famous like my dad. So I
don't know who whose child is.

Speaker 6 (35:53):
No, Honestly, you're not but you are in the top
the top tail or something.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
And altered all the audio we have of Robert Fisher,
the best grade and good clips eleven point five to
two minutes. They aren't sure if it's enough or of
sufficient quality to clone his voice, but they get to
work on a custom model. A few weeks later we
get an email success. What did you think when you
first heard it work?

Speaker 18 (36:19):
I never heard a person of that level of let's
say evilness.

Speaker 11 (36:27):
I don't know how to call it. You see movies
all the time about special characters and murderous characters, right,
You've seen some videos of Along Hitler or others stalling
who killed people in scores.

Speaker 18 (36:40):
But that was in the leaders side.

Speaker 11 (36:42):
We never heard people are like every day they were
hiding and killing them.

Speaker 18 (36:46):
So kind of putting a voice to that personality made
me wonder about what personality traits does the voice convey?

Speaker 11 (36:55):
Okay, stunt this guy? Would I by his voice being
able to.

Speaker 18 (36:59):
Say, see this person might be dangerous if I let
my kids close to him?

Speaker 3 (37:05):
For example?

Speaker 1 (37:06):
What would you think if this voice project that we've
been doing. What would you think if this actually worked
and helped to catch him? That would be cool?

Speaker 11 (37:13):
Way enough for him, and I will make the world
the better place.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
I guess when we work with the visual artists the
forensic artists, one of the things that they tell us
about visual age progressed images, so taking the old photos
and updating them for what he would look like today
is their work is supposed to be representative, so it
doesn't necessarily mean that image they produce is going to
be exactly what he looks like. That their goal is

(37:41):
to trigger somebody's mind to say that looks familiar. So
instead of saying this is exactly what he looks like,
if you trigger somebody out there their mind familiarity, maybe
they will think for a second, think for a minute
that this person they know could match the person that
we are looking for. And it's interesting because in some

(38:01):
ways this is almost an audio version of that where
we are using. I was very impressed that Altered was
able to do what it was able to do with
limited source audio of questionable quality, which is not your
fault at all, and you still were able to successfully
pull this off. And I think even if it's not
exactly what he sounds like today, my hope would be

(38:23):
that somebody out there it kind of maybe jogs their
memory or their mind a little bit that they can say, well,
that kind of sounds like so and so, and then,
especially if you combine that with the work we're doing
with visual forensic artists, if you think, well, that kind
of looks like and that kind of sounds like that's
a whole different way of approaching this versus just the

(38:43):
visual aspect. So, as far as I know, this is
the first time this has ever been done. Here's how
it works. Alter set us up with their software. We
cast our producer Chris Brown as Robert Fisher, which is
amusing because Chris is a kind, gentle guy, certainly not
a family killer. I script what I want Chris, excuse
me Robert to say. We record his audio directly into

(39:06):
the altered AI studio, which is easy to use. I
press a button, Boom magic. Chris is now Robert Robert Chris.
Here are some samples before and after.

Speaker 19 (39:17):
Hey everybody, Chris Brown here, I bet you're as surprised
as I am.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Hey everybody, Chris Brown here, I bet you're as surprised
as I am.

Speaker 19 (39:25):
Don't worry, I'm not singing. I'll leave that for the
other Chris Brown.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Don't worry. I'm not singing. I'll leave that for the
other Chris Brown.

Speaker 19 (39:33):
But enough about me. This is about me, Robert Fisher.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
But enough about me. This is about me, Robert Fisher.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
What you're gonna hear next is a fictional interview between
me and AI Robert. This is an experiment. There are
limitations if you hear Robert and think, man, that's not great.
Remember we had to overcome severe challenges, only eleven point
five to two minutes of source material from tapes filmed
in the eighties and n many of which survived an

(40:01):
explosion and a house fire. I'm saying this because I
don't want it to reflect negatively on alter ed AI's capabilities.
They did us a favor. They were able to help
us when many other companies couldn't or wouldn't. Pay attention
to the sound of Robert's voice. We weren't able to
age it, so it's closer to what it sounded like
at forty than today. But still, do you recognize it?

(40:24):
Does it match anyone you know?

Speaker 5 (40:26):
Without further ado, mister Fisher, I presume, yep, that's me.
Do you understand what we're doing here?

Speaker 2 (40:34):
Not really?

Speaker 5 (40:35):
Well, apparently I'm interviewing you.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
How I'm still missing?

Speaker 5 (40:39):
Yeah? I know. We recreated your voice using AI why
to see if anyone recognizes it, to get publicity so
we can find you, and to conduct an experiment with
cutting edge technology.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
So am I real? Yes?

Speaker 5 (40:52):
And no? Is that ethical in this context? Yes, you're
unpredictable and dangerous. We have to find you.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
This is a gimmick.

Speaker 5 (40:59):
If that's what you want to call it. Fine, I
don't want to speak to you. Well tough, that's the
beauty of this. You are not in control. I am
What do you mean? I can make you say whatever
I want.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Oh, I'd like to see you try.

Speaker 5 (41:10):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
My name is Robert Fisher. Police believe I killed my
wife and kids. I caused people extreme pain and made
it worse by disappearing. I'm a coward. See what gives
you the right to play god? I can ask you
the same thing, smart ass. Look, I get it. AI
is exciting but also dangerous. It can make us doubt
what's real and believe to be real what's not. That's

(41:33):
rich And you think I'm the bad guy?

Speaker 5 (41:35):
Yep? I do you profit off people's pain? Pain you caused?
And no, I'm not in it for money.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
I bet you want to be famous.

Speaker 5 (41:43):
No, trust me. I like my privacy, well.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
So do I. Why are you trying so hard to
find me?

Speaker 5 (41:48):
Because this is a fascinating case. I want to solve it,
and because you hurt so many people, I want to
help them.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
All right, come on, then ask me some real questions,
like what what everyone wants you to ask about? The murders,
the fire, my escape.

Speaker 5 (42:02):
I wish I could go on.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Then do it.

Speaker 5 (42:05):
No, Robert, unlike you, I have ethical limits. I have
to be careful here. But trust me, the minute they
drag your ass in, I'm happy to interview you.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah, but why would I speak to you?

Speaker 5 (42:14):
Because I'm trying to be fair. I'm trying to tell
the world who you really are, good and bad. I
didn't just call you a monster and play scary music
and move on. So Bill, am I you were Robert Fisher?

Speaker 2 (42:25):
No, I'm not.

Speaker 5 (42:26):
No, you're not.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
You're right. I'm Chris Brown, a producer.

Speaker 5 (42:30):
Yes you are, last time I checked.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
No, I'm Robert again. Okay, John, Can I be honest?

Speaker 5 (42:35):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
Can you you're biased? Oh?

Speaker 5 (42:37):
Yeah, I'm biased, all right? Biased against child killers?

Speaker 2 (42:41):
Whatever? You're never gonna find me.

Speaker 5 (42:43):
Well, then I hope you suffer until you surrender or die.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Boh, okay, real professional.

Speaker 5 (42:49):
Don't you have any shame at all?

Speaker 2 (42:51):
I think we're done here. Where's my lawyer?

Speaker 5 (42:53):
Calm down, man, I'm not a cop.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
I don't care.

Speaker 5 (42:55):
What do you care about? Do you even believe in God?

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yes?

Speaker 14 (42:59):
I do?

Speaker 5 (42:59):
And you think what You're just gonna live life on
the lamb and then die and go to heaven after
what you did. Maybe that's not gonna happen. Okay, you've
got to know that. Surrender now. It's the only way
you can redeem yourself at all.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
No, no, what, No, I'm not gonna surrender.

Speaker 5 (43:15):
Fine, in that case, I'm taking control.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
John is in control of my voice. He can make
me say anything. I can't speak for myself. And less
I surrender or the police find me, I will live
in fear for the rest of my life that someone
recognizes me. For that to happen, I need your help.
Put my face everywhere. Share the new wanted poster. Put
it all over social media, Send it to friends, family, coworkers, everyone.

(43:41):
If you're a celebrity, share my face. If you're an influencer,
share my face. If you're a billboard company, put out
my face. If you own movie theaters, air my face.
If you're a reporter, do a story, put my face.
Everywhere they've worked with John List. They found him after
eighteen years, So don't just let this episode and then
forget about it and move on. Go to knee on

(44:03):
thirty three dot com to download the new wanted.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Poster and share my face next time I'm missing in Arizona.

Speaker 9 (44:11):
One thing I'm going to recommend is if you have
an identical twin brother, don't be a fugitive.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
You can reach us by phone at one eight three
three new tips. That's one eight three three six three
nine eight four seven seven, by email at tips at
iHeartMedia dot com, tip s at iHeartMedia dot com, online
at meon thirty three dot com, or on Twitter at
John Wallzac, j O n W A. L. Czak. Paul

(44:41):
Duckan is our executive producer, Chris Brown is our supervising producer.
Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemperlin is our researcher,
Ben Bowen is a consulting producer. And I'm your host
and executive producer. John Waalzac special thanks to Wayne Stallert
and Kashia Katziura, and a big thank you to altered Ai.
For more information, visit alter dot Ai. Also thank you

(45:02):
to Mike Constanty, the researcher we hire to access archive
naval records. Additional production support provided by Ben Hackett AI.
Robert Fischer voiced by Chris Brown, Navy Ports of Call
List voiced by Lauren Vogelbaum. Cover art by Pam Peacock,
Neon thirty three. Logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro
song is Utopia by Ruby Cube. Please download the first

(45:24):
two seasons of our show, Missing in Alaska and Missing
on nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give
us a five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a
co production of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three
Advertise With Us

Host

Jon Walczak

Jon Walczak

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