All Episodes

October 30, 2024 33 mins

A hermit. A mistress. A convict. Someone knows something.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may
not be suitable for all listeners. There are people out
there who have information that could help solve this case.
Persons of interest, including someone who allegedly spoke to Robert
Fisher after the murders, someone with whom he was having
an ongoing affair, and the camper who located Mary Fisher's
SUV and then himself disappeared. Some have key details but

(00:24):
are likely not involved in any other way. Some may
have helped Robert before the murders, some may have helped
him after. At the least they can help us understand
what happened. At the most they can help us find
him today. Just proving he lived past April two thousand
and one and did not die in the wilderness would
be a huge break in the case. In this episode,

(00:45):
I'm going to examine these people. Who are they, what
do they know? What did they do? From iHeartRadio and
Neon thirty three, I'm John Walzac and this is Missing
an air the story of a man who disappeared after
allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home,

(01:06):
and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later. I'm
hunting Robert Fisher and I need your help.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Sean.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
April thirteenth, two thousand and one, three days after the
Fisher house explodes, nine to fifteen PM, a phone rings
at the Scottsdale Police Department. An informant shares the name
of a man, Sean, who allegedly knows where Robert Fisher
is hiding in the mountains. Detectives are intrigued. This is
the second time in only seventy two hours that Shawn's

(01:40):
name has come up. A US Marshall heard from a
different informant that Sean was speaking to Fisher after the
murders by phone. So now two sources have said that
Shawn either knows where Fisher is or that he's currently
in contact with him. Police interviews Sean. He confirms that
he and Robert are friends. They met at Paradise Springs
Community Each church seven or eight years ago. They also

(02:02):
shared two close mutual friends, Ken Hodgson and Sandy Gillespie.
In recent years, Robert acted erratically, Sean says, on hunting
trips he would randomly shoot guns at inappropriate times. He
was also likely having affairs, but Sean doesn't know with
whom the area's Robert knows best. He says, our unit

(02:22):
twenty three near Young and five B south north of Payson.
Detectives ask if he's talking to Robert by phone. Absolutely not,
He says. The murders are a tragedy. If Robert contacts him,
he'll call the police immediately. In twenty twenty three, I
speak to Sean by phone after Robert disappeared. After the murders,
the police got hundreds, if not thousands of tips. One

(02:45):
of the tips that they got was from an infour
minute who alleges that you were speaking to Robert after
he disappeared, trying to get him to turn himself in,
and that he was in the mountains near Winslow. Can
you address that? Was that accurate at all?

Speaker 3 (02:59):
No?

Speaker 4 (03:00):
No, no, I never spoke to Robert after that. I
mean I would have made a cistans arrest, you know,
and turn him in. That kind of behavior is unacceptable
if he deserves.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
To pay for his crimes. I mean I really liked
his son. He was cool.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
If Robert were to have reached out to anybody in
terms of a friend, who do you think he would
have reached out to?

Speaker 4 (03:19):
Well, he had a pretty close relationship with pastor Ken
Hodginson from Paradise Springs Church. I think Ken had some
insight into his personality that went beyond anybody else that
were just acquaintances with him.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
I think Robert probably talked to him because that's what
Ken does.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
That's his speciality is helping people with their demons. He's
as much of a therapist counselor as he is a minister.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Shawn never expected to hear from Robert after the murders because.

Speaker 4 (03:45):
He knew my personality. I'm not going to go along
with that. I mean, that's heinous, that's evil man. I
was pissed for a long time out of smoke.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Check him.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
Who would have come down to that, either made an
assisting resident. He didn't go quietly. I'd had to shoot him.
I was perfectly prepared to take steps. That's just some
evil shit. So no, yeah, that's totally false. I'd be
curious to find out who the informal was it said
that Ken Hodgson.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Everyone tells me that if anyone knows Robert's secrets, it's
Ken Hodgson. Ken and Robert grew up together in Tucson.
Ken later became a pastor Robert attended his church in
the lead up to the murders, Robert told Ken that
Mary wanted a divorce. Ken later speculated to the FBI
that Robert was gay. Even if he has inside information,
though he's in a tough spot as a pastor, he's

(04:31):
obligated to keep secrets, not share them except in extreme circumstances.
After the murders, Ken feared for his safety. He no
longer lives in Arizona. I try to reach him. He
never responds Dale Hodgson, Ken's brother and Robert's former hunting buddy.
If Robert confided in Ken and Ken confided in anyone else,

(04:51):
it's likely Dale. Dale is also a key witness about
another person of interest, the Hermit. I'll get to him
in a minute, but first, when I contact Dale, this
is what he tells me via email.

Speaker 5 (05:02):
John, I do not know anything about Robert's personal life.
I went hunting with him a couple of times, and
that's it. I would love to see Robert brought to justice.
I do not know about the hermit, or about anyone
in his personal life, male or female.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Good luck Dale the Hermit.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Though Dale now says he doesn't know anything about the hermit.
That's not what he told police in two thousand and one.
In December two thousand, four months before the murders, he
said he and Robert went on an elk hunting trip
about twenty miles north of Payson. Dale's son accompanied them.
They stayed at the Happy Jack RV Park near the
town of Clint's Well, arriving the night of Thursday, December seventh,

(05:41):
and leaving the morning of Sunday, December tenth. Robert stuck
around a bit longer by himself. Much of the trip.
Dale and his son went one way, Robert another. One day,
while riding his ATV, Robert stumbled upon another man also
on an ATV. The hermit, an older guy who lived
in the area year round in a small trailer. Dale
only met him twice for about ten minutes. He described

(06:04):
him as a white male about seventy years old, five
to nine, one hundred and eighty pounds, with whiskers, wearing
insulated overalls and a black beanie cap. The hermit was
from Mesa. He had a white collar career, possibly at Motorola.
Then he had heart problems, quit his job, got a divorce,
gave up on society, and retreated into the woods sometime

(06:24):
around nineteen ninety three or ninety four. He started with
a barebones trailer. Over time, he added solar power, a
fridge that ran on propane, and possibly a TV, though
he didn't watch it. He spent his days collecting firewood
and only went into town once a month for medication.
Robert loved all of this, the solitude, the languid days outside,

(06:47):
a crisp pine scented pulsating breeze, and escape from society.
The two men spent a lot of time together. Dale
says alone after the trip, Robert told at least two
other people about the hermit, Van Hodgson and a co
worker who doesn't want to be named. Robert told the
co worker that the hermit lived at a campsite in
a shack like shed, which differs from Dale's description of

(07:09):
a trailer. He said that while writing his ATV, he
came across the hermit walking in the woods, which differs
from Dale's account that both men were writing ATVs. The
hermit gave Robert directions to his home. The next day,
Robert visited him for five to six hours. The hermit
had a dog, but was lonely. Robert said he also
had a good supply of fuel and food, including wild turkeys,

(07:32):
which he penned up in his yard. The hermit came
into town only once a year for supplies, Robert told
his coworker, which differs from Dale's account that he came
into town once a month. He was a business person
or maybe a lawyer. He got tired of his job
and society and one day left it all behind. He
cut off communication with the outside world. Robert said the

(07:53):
hermit was in his forties, which differs from Dale's account
that the hermit was in his seventies. Robert showed his
coworker photos from the trip. Police never located them. They
presumably burned in the Fisher House fire. Ken Hodgson told
police that Robert and Dale both referred to the hermit
as quote the guy with the cornpipe. Police asked Ken,

(08:13):
Dale and the co worker if Robert expressed any hermit
fantasies of his own. No, they said, in part because
of his back pain. He might idealize that rugged kind
of life, as millions do, but he wasn't cut out
to live it. The details here come from interviews police
conducted a week after the murders. They spoke to the
coworker on April seventeenth, two thousand and one, and to

(08:35):
Ken and Dale Hodgson the next day, April eighteenth. So
I'm comparing contemporaneous accounts of the hermit, not fresh memories
from two thousand and one to stale ones today, which
otherwise could explain some of the minor discrepancies. The hermit
is important for two key reasons. First, he inspired Robert,
if not to live in the woods, then at least

(08:55):
to dramatically alter his life. Their encounter was serendipitous. It
came right before Robert fell sick with an apparent STI,
days before his life started to pancake and rapidly collapse.
Incredible timing. Second, and this is critical, Dale Hodgson told
police that he thought Robert might be with the hermit,
that he could have fled there after the murders, which

(09:17):
makes sense. Robert meets a hermit in the woods four
months before he kills his family. The hermit is cut
off from society, he's not following the news. He has
a stockpile of food and fuel. It's an ideal off
the grid refuge. The hermit could have helped Robert without
knowing what he did. Robert could have lied, for example,
saying his wife kicked him out and he needed a

(09:38):
place to stay. The hermit was lonely, he likely would
have obliged. He would have welcomed company from a kindred spirit.
Police attempted to locate him in two thousand and one.
They apparently failed. Dale Hodgson and his son left the
hunting trip early on Sunday, December tenth, two thousand. Robert
stayed behind. Another friend, Steve Peach, arrived the night of

(09:59):
time whose day December twelfth, meaning Robert had two and
a half days at Happy Jack alone, two and a
half days he could have spent with the hermit who
when Steve arrived, Robert failed to mention, which seems strange right,
almost like he decided to minimize who knew about him. Now,
let me circle back to a lead I discussed in
episode five. After the murders, a tow truck driver claimed

(10:21):
he pulled Robert out of a ditch near Blue Ridge Reservoir.
While I'm skeptical of this claim, I do want to
point out that the hermit lived only five miles from
the reservoir. In twenty twenty three, I interview Robert's coworker,
the one he told about the hermit.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, the hermit story is true.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
The hermit and his lifestyle fascinated Robert.

Speaker 6 (10:40):
And there were only like two or three of us
who knew of this. A very small piece, very limited
number of people knew.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
That Robert admired the hermit's home for its minimalist efficiency and.

Speaker 6 (10:50):
Because it was kind of out in the middle of nowhere,
so it wasn't like you went to loot some scraps
at home deep over or you found some on the
side of the road.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
So it was just kind of stuff that he yelp
from your forest and stuff like that. And I know
he mentioned.

Speaker 6 (11:06):
It was almost like you didn't see it, so they
actually saw the person before he said, we actually saw
where he was living.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Summer twenty twenty three, our producer Chris and I decide
to search for the hermit. We leave Phoenix Drive to
Happy Jack.

Speaker 7 (11:22):
It's thro on this like.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Windy rocky forest for a very rocky forest road, like
through the forests. We've got a polar pop from Circle
K and you can hear it jiggling around. I don't
know how good the mic is. I hope it picks
up the jiggling ice. Nobody else is on this road.

(11:46):
It's very bumpy. There's a looks like it's spelled to rain.
It's pretty cloudy, and it's seventy three degrees. It's actually
really nice. We criss cross side roads, including one with
a sizeable no trespassing sign. Should just go down it.
Let's go down. Let's go down a little bit and
then turn around.

Speaker 7 (12:03):
Go what are they going to do?

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Arrest us? Come on?

Speaker 1 (12:07):
Some people just come out yelling at us as a shotgun
or something. That's better than being arrested. We're just lost,
just some lost to us. Looking for hermit. We find
some shacks that could belong to the hermit. There's no
way to know for sure, but one thing we can
say by now, he's likely dead and regardless, this area

(12:27):
has changed a lot since two thousand and one. It's
much more developed. So moving on to Brad. Brad started
a new job at the Mayo Clinic Hospital in Phoenix
in December two thousand. He met Robert at orientation on Thursday,
December seventh. The same day Robert left after work on
the elk hunting trip Robert and Brad quickly bonded over

(12:48):
their love of guns and nature, as well as their
past military experience. In February two thousand and one, two
months before the murders, Brad gave Robert a bunch of
MREs Field rations three to five five cases. Each was
ten to twelve meals, enough to last at least two
to three weeks. Police never found them. They could have burned,
or Robert could have hidden them somewhere. Brad was the

(13:10):
last coworker to see Robert. They exited the hospital together
around four pm on April ninth, shortly before the murders. Initially,
police were suspicious of Brad, but later they determined it
unlikely that he helped Robert in any way other than
innocently gifting him some MREs. I agree with that assessment.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
German shepherd man, this.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
One is confounding. I don't know what to make of it.
The night of April ninth, two thousand and one, a
teacher named Marge Lopez witnessed something odd at Supi Middle
School outside the National Junior Honor Society event. She saw
a man tying up a blonde colored German shepherd. She
didn't pay him much attention. When he walked in, he
sat down next to her. It was Robert Fisher. Lopez

(13:53):
asked about the shepherd, speaking in a harsh, monotone voice.
Robert quote indicated very sternly that it was not him
that was outside with the dog. According to a police report,
Lopez said the man with the shepherd were the same
black ball cap as Fisher. She was confident it was Fisher.
There are only two options here. Either Lopez was mistaken

(14:14):
or it was Fisher, in which case, what was he
doing with the blonde German shepherd? And whose shepherd was it?
If you're thinking maybe she saw Robert tying up his
dog Blue, I doubt it. Blue was a different breed,
an Australian cattle dog, not a German shepherd. He was black,
white and gray, not blonde. And anyway, why would Robert

(14:34):
deny that he was the guy outside.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
The Paulden Survivalists.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
We reported this one in episode nine. On April first,
two thousand and one, while returning to Scottsdale from a
wedding in Sedona, Robert unexpectedly stopped at a survivalist compound
in Paulden. He made Mary Wade in the car She
had no idea what he was doing. He disappeared for
an hour, then came back. This is obviously mysterious. Who
were these people? Why did Robert meet with them nine

(15:26):
days before the murders? Did they in any way help him?
I don't know, but I found something of note. According
to Phoenix Magazine, that area was at the time a
hot spot for outlaw biker gangs, including the Skull Valley
chapter of the Hell's Angels, based in Chino Valley, only
ten minutes south.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Of Paulden Brian Ballard.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
On June twenty seventh, two thousand and one, four Scott
Steel detectives followed up on a lead from a local
inmate that Robert Fischer stayed with a man named Brian
Ballard after the murders. A woman nicknamed Ninja, whose real
name is redacted in a police report, allegedly helped. From
the report quote, it was reported that had brought Fisher
to after the murders, Detectives interviewed at least eight people,

(16:09):
including Stacy Metcalf, an inmate in Phoenix, Donovan Solstak, s
l z Stak, also an inmate in Phoenix, Sally Metcalf,
Jessica Baker and two neighbors who lived across the street
from possibly a safe house where Robert Fisher stayed after
the murders. The neighbors didn't have any information on Fisher,

(16:30):
but there was a lot of traffic into and out
of the house. They said they suspected it was used
to deal drugs. That's all I got from a records request.
I was unable to reach anyone named in the report. However,
I did identify Brian Ballard as Brian Douglas Ballard nickname Purebread,
ilias Mark Laylor, La Lar occupation drywall contractor. Date of

(16:53):
birth July twenty seventh, nineteen sixty one, so he was
the same age as Robert Fisher. Height six ' one
wait one hundred and seventy five pounds, hair, blonde, eyes hazel,
so in some ways he physically resembled Fisher too. He
has an extensive criminal record, including charges for drug possession, larceny, forgery, trafficking,

(17:16):
stolen property, assault, weapons related defenses, disorderly conduct, shoplifting, and
driving while impaired. On July twenty first, two thousand and one,
three months after the Fisher murders, a Phoenix police officer
pulled him over and issued him three citations. Five days later,
Phoenix police raided the home he shared with his girlfriend,
Colinda Lee Davis eighty twenty four North twenty ninth Avenue, which,

(17:40):
if you're curious, is twenty miles from the Fisher House.
They found meth syringes, drug pipes, counterfeit bills, and pieces
of counterfeit checks. Ballard said he was working as an
informant for the Glendale Police Department. He claimed he would
obtain counterfeit bills from a guy named Tuma, then turn
them over to the cops at his house. During the raid,
or at least four other people Skyler Lee Writtenauer, Sandra

(18:04):
Luis Radell, Michael Thomas Beck, and Augustine Vdalas Velasquez or Vasquez.
The spelling is inconsistent in a police report. The report
also names Michael William Lampy Lampe, Carl a Pert, and
Lester Whitezel, though it's unclear how they're tied to the case.
On August fifth, two thousand and one, ten days after

(18:25):
the raid, Ballard was pulled over again while out on
bail by the same cop who stopped him on July
twenty first, in his front pocket, the cop found seven
hundred and eighty milligrams of meth. Ballard claimed the pants
were not actually his, but he quickly gave up that ruse. Yes,
he said, they're my pants. Yes, it's my meth. The
officer also found a jiggle key used to pick locks

(18:48):
on his floorboard, as well as keys to other vehicles,
all of which Ballard claimed were his. It's unclear if
Phoenix police were aware that Ballard was a person of
interest in the Fisher case. They raided his house a
month after. Scottsdale Police investigated whether or not he sheltered
Robert after the murders. Robert wasn't known to use illegal drugs,
but he was seemingly addicted to opioids. He had a prescription,

(19:11):
but it's possible he also obtained them illegally, which could
explain a connection to someone living in a house used
to sell drugs. When arrested in two thousand and one,
Ballard was described as an unemployed addict. If anyone from
the criminal underworld helped Robert after the murders, it likely
would have been in exchange for money. They may not
have even been aware of what he did. If I

(19:31):
were law enforcement Here's what I do. Now, Double check
this lead. Interview Ballard and everyone else tied to his case.
Compare his fingerprints which are on file to Prince recovered
from Mary's forerunner. If the keys found in his vehicle
in two thousand and one are in storage, see if
any fit the fore runner. Examine other evidence recovered from
his house. Check his medical records, see if he was

(19:54):
ever treated at one of Robert's hospitals. Finally, if Ballard
had ties to someone who produced counterfeit ca and checks,
he could have easily had ties to someone who produced
falsified identity documents which Robert could have used to escape.
So I'd review document forgery cases in the Phoenix metro
from say, nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and four,

(20:14):
Track down the forgers and interview them. Also, let me
say this, if you were involved in a legal activity
in two thousand and one and helped Robert Fisher escape
or know who did, you could still be eligible for
reward money. The cops don't care about you. They don't
care about drugs or fake bills from twenty three years ago.
They want to catch a guy who killed his wife

(20:34):
and children. Please come forward or at least submit information
anonymously to law enforcement or US. We'll tell you how
to reach us at the end of.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
This episode the Unit ten Rancher.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Some people theorize that after the murders, Robert fled to
a remote ranch somewhere in Arizona, disconnected from society. Maybe
he's living there today. They say, I find it hard
to believe that he's still on some isolated property in
state twenty three years later, but it's certainly possible that
he used one as a layover while escaping. That exact
scenario played out in a high profile way in nineteen

(21:09):
ninety seven, when the FBI found Chevy Keyhoe, a white supremacist,
hiding under a fake name, on a Utah ranch one
hundred miles northwest of the Grand Canyon. Keyho helped kill
a family in Arkansas, including an eight year old girl,
and has suspected ties to the Oklahoma City bombing. Meanwhile,
one of Robert's friends told police that before he killed
his family, Robert befriended quote a rancher up in Unit ten.

(21:33):
Unit ten is a hunting area sandwiched between Williams, Arizona,
and the Grand Canyon. Another friend said that Robert quote
had a ranch near the Grand Canyon, presumably not that
he owned one, but that he frequented one in the area.
The unit ten rancher has never been identified. There's one
more Rance related lead. I purposely left it out of

(21:54):
episode five. Tell me about the Cherry Creek story lead.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, this one is bizarre.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
True Crime Arizona host Brianna Whitney.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
It was in the late two thousands and this woman
named Jesse Clanbal and her friend were going to the
Cherry Creek Store to give people an idea of what
that looks like. It's a really small convenience store that
has some groceries, but it's more like a like a gas.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Station convenience store.

Speaker 7 (22:16):
And it's in Young and.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
It's in Young, right, so there's not much off of
the road in Young, Like this is the main store
that's there, which is.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Just south of where the Forerunner was fould right.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
So tinytown in the woods. If you're listening and trying
to visualize this tinytown in the woods, one road, not
much around it. The Cherry Creek Store is probably the
main grocery store, but when you think of it, it's
like a gas station convenience store to set the scene,
and Jesse Clanbial was living in young she had young
kids at the time. She and her friend went to
the Cherry Creek store to get whatever they needed to

(22:47):
get and at the front was a picture of Robert Fisher.
You know most wanted. Here's his picture that we've all
seen a million times. While they were in there, this
old man, I think with an oxygen tank came in
with like aanch hand, a younger ranch hand, and she
said that. When they got to the front counter, the
old man said, why do you have a picture of
my friend?

Speaker 2 (23:07):
What is that?

Speaker 3 (23:07):
And you know it's Robert Fisher. He's wanted for murdering
his family. As this old man got real irate and upset, like, no,
this man lives on my ranch with me. He would
never do such a thing. He's a great person. This
cannot be him. Why are you paid to him in
this picture? No way, you have the wrong person, and
got really upset at the fact that he claimed whoever

(23:28):
was on his ranch was in this picture. And I
guess eventually he asked the ranch hand, you know, let's go,
let's go, let's get out of here. And so Jesse
watched this go down and thought, well, that was a
weird interaction, and ended up calling the FBI with the tip.
The problem is that nobody could track down who the
old man was or what ranch he lived on in
the area. And you might think, oh, maybe there's a

(23:49):
couple of ranches. No, there's a lot of ranches in
northern Arizona, so to know exactly which one we're talking
about would be nearly impossible.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
And part it's interesting because of what Robert Fisher did
for a living, that he was cardiovascular and respiratory tech
at the Mayo Clinic, And so I think you highlighted
the importance of this man rolling in with an oxygen
tank because it's a little anecdotal piece of information, but
it ties into what Fisher did professionally.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, exactly, I think that part stands out. And when
I talked to Robert Fisher's sister on the phone, she
also made mention of that she felt that this was
the most credible tip because she said she could see
Robert helping somebody. He knew how to work an oxygen
type tank. He was a respiratory therapist at the Mayo Clinic,
very well renowned. So yeah, I mean, could he have
been living there.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Sure, or maybe the man had dementia and was confused.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
We just don't know, and that's what's so frustrating.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
If you like this show, please download our first two seasons,
Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates,
visit neon thirty three dot com or follow me on
Twitter at John Waalzac joenl Czak.

Speaker 7 (25:02):
Thanks for listening.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
There are three people left who are critical to this case.
I'm going to discuss two of them now and save
one for next week. First, the mistress, who could be
one of at least four different people. In episode six,
Robert's friend and co worker, Ashley's Zarsty said there were
persistent rumors that Robert had an affair in the nineties
with a nurse. For years, the nurse's husband left Robert

(25:40):
threatening voicemails. It was enough to force him to move
to a different hospital. Then, in nineteen ninety nine, Robert
cheated on Mary with a masseuse, a one time fling
at a motel. Finally, in the lead up to the murders,
there was rampant speculation that he was having another affair.
Confirmation seemingly came when he got sick with at least
one or more a s TIS and transmitted syphilis to Mary.

(26:03):
So was robertson fidelity in two thousand and or two
thousand and one, a quick flame, an ongoing affair, or both.
Would any of these women or men help him before, during,
or after the murders? Did police investigate the nurse with
whom he allegedly had an affair in the nineties, and
most importantly, if he was having an affair in two
thousand and one, who was the other person? I found

(26:26):
four candidates. First, an unknown woman who lived in Prescott Valley, Arizona,
not far from Robert's mom. Her name is redacted in
police reports. Second, a woman I'll call Rita. I know
her name, but for privacy's sake, I'm choosing not to
name her. It's not something I can do ethically at
this point. Rita's name surfaced in two thousand and one,

(26:48):
right after the murders. Police obtained a credit report on her,
but they were instructed to stop there because they didn't
have any concrete evidence that she was involved with Fisher
in quote an extraordinary capacity. Third, a woman all called
Tina Tino worked with Robert at the Mayo Clinic Hospital.
I emailed her last year. She responded, asking how I

(27:09):
found her, then saying quote, I'm going to pass on
any further discussions on this fourth a woman all call Sandra.
She also worked with Fisher at Mayo. I also emailed her.
She said quote, I don't have any more information to
share with you that wasn't given at the time of
the horrific thing that he did. Best of luck and
hopefully someday he'll be found one way or the other.

(27:32):
For now, that's all I have. Any further action needs
to be taken by law enforcement.

Speaker 7 (27:37):
Moving on to Greg, the.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Camper who found Mary's SUV in the woods north of
Young on April nineteenth, two thousand and one. That day,
he was driving home from Arizona to Oregon. When the
sun started to set and the weather deteriorated, he stopped
for the night set up a campsite. As twilight sank
into the forest, he started walking down a rugged dirt road.

(28:00):
He spotted a glint of silver an squv. He knew
it could be Fisher, but come on, really, he figured
it so unlikely. He returned to his campsite, had dinner,
and fell asleep in his wood paneled white van. The
next morning, he circled behind the suv on a hill.
He peered through binoculars. It was a Forerunner. He saw

(28:21):
movement blue, Robert's dog. Then he drove forty minutes north
to a gas station, where he used a payphone to
call two friends in Mesa, who in turn called the
Scottsdale Police Department, sparking a massive manhunt in rugged terrain. Meanwhile,
Greg disappeared. He left the state quickly. Police were unable
to reach him for a month. Finally they tracked him

(28:42):
down and spoke to him by phone at his brother's
home in Oregon. Investigators have always suspected that he possibly
helped Robert escape, that he drove him to freedom. Police
reports describe him as a transient camper who roamed the
nation and made money working odd jobs pouring concrete slab,
for example. He first heard about the Fisher case on

(29:03):
the radio on April nineteenth. With darkness and snow descending,
he stumbled upon the Forerunner while gathering firewood.

Speaker 7 (29:10):
By chance.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
He said, it was parked exactly where he camped seven
months earlier. He noticed the log across the road and thought,
quote that'd be kind of cute if he Fisher went
down this road and pushed that log across it, so
anybody driving down there would just turn around and leave.
Then he saw on suv poking out of the bushes.

Speaker 7 (29:29):
Quote.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Now, I've been doing this camping stuff for about ten years.
I know the different styles of camping. There's loitering, there's camping,
there's homesteading, there's free loading, and then there's hiding. This
guy was part hiding. You wouldn't camp like that. Greg
turned around and walked back to his campsite. I kept
the fire burning real good, he said, But I didn't

(29:52):
stand near the fire. I stood out in the dark
because it was a real dark night cold. He noticed
that whoever the suv belonged to didn't light their own fire,
which quote raised an eyebrow. At that point, he gave
it fifty to fifty odds that it was actually Fisher.
The next morning, he was approached by Robert's dog, Blue,
who he described as quote a dingo looking thing. The

(30:14):
dog came about halfway to me, he said. He was
acting real strange, whining and trying to wag his tail
at the same time. If he even had a tail,
I can't remember. He was wagging his butt anyway, and
he would look at me and then look back at
the ditch behind the car. There's a little dry wash
back there, and I figured, well, he Robert killed himself.

(30:35):
He's laying down in that ditch, and I really didn't
want to go look at it because it might be
an ambush or something. I went back and put out
my fire and threw dirt on it and drove straight
up to Heber. I was kind of at a loss
of what to do. I don't use telephones. I don't
even like them, especially payphones. They just take my money
and I don't get nothing out of it.

Speaker 7 (30:54):
Yet.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Despite his disdain for coin guzzling phones, Greg called his
friends the Jackas, then sped away way as investigators and
the media converged on the Forerunner. Greg spent the night
twenty one miles north above Chevlon Canyon Lake. The next
day he hit Winslow Flagstaff Page. He crossed into southern Utah,
drove through the Escalante Staircase area, emerged near Bryce Canyon,

(31:17):
and continued on to Oregon. Investigators asked how he felt
about Robert Fisher. I'd like to see him shot dead.
He said, wherever you find him, because it's going to
take what seventeen years before you could ever kill him.
You know, it costs so much money and all that crap.
Shoot him right there and just say, well, we don't
know what happened. That's my opinion. It save you a

(31:37):
couple hundred grand. Investigators chuckled, but they were still suspicious.
Why didn't Greg stick around? Why did he leave so quickly?
The original detective John Kirkham died in two thousand and six.
The investigators who took over the case, including Hugh Lockerby,
declined a comment. What did you make of the man
who located the forerunner? I mean he just kind of

(31:59):
hit the road and was hard to track down.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Pass okay.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
For an entire year, I try to find Greg. He
doesn't have much of a paper trail, a fue old
addresses here and there. I write letters, no response, send emails,
they bounce back, call possible numbers, not him. By late
twenty twenty three, there's nothing left to do but try
to track him down in person. In December, our producer
Chris and I hop on a plane. We fly to Seattle,

(32:26):
drive down to Oregon, start knocking on doors. Over the years,
I've done this repeatedly. It's always a waste of time,
an act of desperation.

Speaker 7 (32:34):
It never works.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Until it Greg does Henderson next time I'm missing in Arizona.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
It's a fore runner. Holy shit, there's the job that damn.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
You can reach us by phone at one eight three
to three new tips that's one eight three, three six
three nine eight four seven seven, by email at tips
at iheartman Media dot com, tip s at iHeartMedia dot com,
online at Neon thirty three dot com, or on Twitter
at John Wallzac, j O n w A. L. Czak.

(33:12):
This episode produced by Taylor Chacoine. Paul Decan is our
executive producer. Chris Brown is our supervising producer. Panna Rose
Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemberline is our researcher, Ben
Bolin is a consulting producer, and I'm your host and
executive producer. John Wallzac recreation voiced by Ben Hackett, header's
voiced by Taylor Shackoyne. Cover art by Pam Peacock Neon

(33:35):
thirty three. Logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro song
is Utopia by Ruby Cube. Please download the first two
seasons of our show Missing in Alaska and Missing on
nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give us
a five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a co
production of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three.
Advertise With Us

Host

Jon Walczak

Jon Walczak

Popular Podcasts

Super Bowl LIX Podcasts

Super Bowl LIX Podcasts

Don't miss out on the NFL Podcast Network and iHeartPodcasts' exclusive week of episodes recorded in New Orleans!

24/7 News: The Latest

24/7 News: The Latest

Today’s Latest News In 4 Minutes. Updated Hourly.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2025 iHeartMedia, Inc.