5. Purgatory

With Sneha in legal limbo, her family hires an attorney.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, So we have a woman who disappeared on September
two one, we have nine eleven, we have a frantic search.
Then what what do we know? In many ways, it's
easier to highlight what we don't know. Was snayha alone
when she was last seen alive in century twenty one

(00:21):
the department store? Or was she with another woman? Why
wasn't snak caught on camera anywhere other than the women's
coat area, especially the shoe area where she made her
final purchase. Where did Snah go after century? Did she
really tell Sonya Mora, the shoe saleswoman, that she was

(00:42):
going to Victoria's Secret and Jones, New York. Did Snah
speak with either or both of her brothers the day
she disappeared, If so, what did she say? Did ron
Liebermann's husband sleep dial his cell phone from his landline
at four oh five m on nine eleven? Does that

(01:02):
explain the otherwise unexplainable call made from inside the apartment
It is the woman who exited snay Has building at
three am on nine eleven. Actually, snay Haa did say
attend a party on September ten at a hotel next
to the Twin towers. Did she go shopping on nine
eleven in the mall underneath the day she visit Windows

(01:23):
on the World on top of the North Tower. Was
she just walking home when the attacks began, or none
of the above? We don't know. Most of all, where
did snay Has stay the night of the tenth? And
as if this wasn't enough, let me throw a few
new questions at you. First, how did snay House family

(01:45):
know that she dropped off dry cleaning one after she
left her apartment but before she got to Century One?
Maybe credit card records, But wouldn't she have paid when
she picked up her clothes, not when she dropped them off.
So did her family interview someone at the dry cleaners?
And if so, what did that person say about snay

(02:06):
Has state of mind? What's she with someone? Then? What
she caught on security footage there we don't know. Finally,
in the Century one footage, say, does not appear to
be wet, nor is she carrying an umbrella, even though
it was storming outside. So did she walk to Century
maybe during a pause in the rain. Did someone drop

(02:28):
her off or did she take a cab? We don't
know what happened to snay Ha And if the explanation
really is so simple, why are there so many discrepancies
and unanswered questions. I don't know, we don't know. No
one knows, not the NYPD, not private investigators, not us,

(02:50):
not yet for my Heart media, this is missing. On
nine eleven, the story were you of one woman who
vanished on the eve of history and my quest to
find her? I'm your host, John Wallzac. On October one,

(03:37):
NYPD Detective Richard Stark ends his investigation into snay house disappearance.
There's nothing left to do, he says. Snayhouse family vehemently
disagrees their private investigator can go on continues to hunt
for clues. He finds few, if any. By coincidence, the
same day Detective Stark ends his investigation, snay Haa was

(04:00):
supposed to be in court facing charges of harassment, assault,
and falsely reporting an incident, but because no one knows
where she is, her case is adjourned again. Two thousand
one ends. Then on January two thousand two, a judge
issues a bench warrant for snay Has arrest. She's not

(04:22):
showing up to court. She's a wall and since there's
no official declaration of death, he has no choice, he says.
One month later, the Associated Press runs a short article
about snay haa quote. Police theorized she orchestrated her own
disappearance to escape personal problems, but her family says this

(04:42):
doesn't make sense. Snay was accomplished, graceful, and stable, they say.
Ron says, quote, we had a great marriage. We were
talking about having babies. D NYPD, however, says that snay
House disappearance is unrelated to the World Trade Center. By
August two thousand two, the initial list of thousands of

(05:04):
people missing on nine eleven has been whittled down to
just nine. Some victims were reported missing multiple times by
different people, a genuine mistake. Then there were cases of fraud,
but also, amazingly, at least seven people initially thought to
have died on nine eleven are found alive. According to

(05:25):
The New York Post, one is a homeless man named
Albert Vaughan, last scene in the subway station beneath the
World Trade Center in June two thousand two, nine months
after the attacks. His family finds him in a psychiatric hospital. Another,
George Simms, was thought to have been working as an
informal street vendor, near the Trade Center on nine eleven.

(05:47):
Like Vaughan Simms, it's found in a psychiatric hospital, diagnosed
with amnesia and schizophrenia. On September eleven, two thousand two,
the one year anniversary of the attacks, snay House family
holds a small memorial service in Poughkeepsie, New York. Publicly,
they've given up any hope that Snah will be found alive. Privately,

(06:09):
though some of them still do not believe that she's dead. Nonetheless,
they bury and earned with unidentified ashes collected from ground zero.
One month later, snay House husband Ron files a claim
with the nine eleven Victims Compensation Fund worth three to
four million dollars, but because has not an official nine

(06:30):
eleven victim, because there's no death certificate, it's denied. By
this point, snay House family is starting to get ticked off. Publicly,
they've settled on the hero narrative that Snah ran into
the burning towers to help people and died as a result.
They say they're not motivated by money. Instead, they're motivated

(06:51):
by legacy. They want recognition for snay house bravery or
and there's no way to say this nicely, her theoretical
bravery Still, the City of New York declines to issue
a death certificate stating that Snayhu died on nine eleven
at the World Trade Center. On September two thousand three,

(07:37):
Ron files a petition seeking a judicial declaration of death.
Two months later, a lawyer named Ellen Winner is appointed
as snay House Guardian ad litem. Basically, it's Ellen's role
to fight for Snah on her behalf, to serve as
her advocate and absentia. In turn, snay House family hires

(07:57):
a lawyer named Mark Bogutin by Ron Lieberman, and he
was this fiving spouse bringing this proceeding in servius court.
And that's what I did. I filed the petition in
Sagret's court to for the judicial declaration of death. We
interviewed Bogutin at his Manhattan office, about twelve hundred feet
northeast of the World Trade Center on January five, the

(08:21):
day before the Capitol riot in d C. We sat
in a conference room, faces covered because well COVID, it
was gray and drizzly. Looking out the window, we could
see Bogutin's old office, the one he had on nine eleven,
only two blocks away near City Hall. That's where he
was headed on nine eleven when the attacks began. It

(08:43):
just got out of the subway Chambers and West Broadway
and started to walk and I hear above me a
plane or see a plane. Look at the plane and
it's going right into the trade center. Boom floats, and
I said, my god, it's it's awful. And all those
people not awful. Then also people other stuff, and so
I was a block away now I just moved the
blockler still looking, and then I saw this explosion in

(09:07):
the tower where I saw this big explosion of the
flames coming out, and I thought it was maybe a bomb,
or maybe it was something like eight attack mortar attacks.
I didn't actually see the second plane, but you know,
once I saw that, everybody once any everybody, so that
everybody knew then it was terrorism. Obviously. Bocatin made his
way into his office, which had a partial view of
the Trade Center. All of a sudden, everyone's running, people

(09:29):
would standing watching was running, running, running and knowing something happened.
I happened, and then I heard we heard on the
TV that the first one fell down, and so then
I looked at my window second and was still there,
and I left then the whole area was closed like
a week or so. But I remember that, remember calling
the court and they say, oh, yeah, we know, we

(09:51):
know what happened. No, there's no court today, there's no
court today. A few years later, Polcatin got a call
from his friend Mark Freiberg, a fellow attorney. Mark Freiberg
had represented Snea and Philip before she disappeared. So basically,
Mark Friberry came to me and talking about the case.

(10:12):
He said that Nia and Philip had lived across the
street from the Trade Center, and he first told me,
you know, she went missing on Stember eleven. They said,
actually she went missing on September tenth, or was last
sing on the tenth, which made the case obviously a
little bit different. And m Mark Fribery had representing and Philip.
She had a very small criminal case pending in the
New York City Criminal Court and he represented her and

(10:34):
that and that was pending on nine eleven, and then
you know, she didn't she disappeared at nine eleven. And
so what happened was initially, when whatever agency was putting
together the list of the dead people died at the
Trade Center, Nia and Philip's name was originally included on
the list prepared by the government of those who died,

(10:57):
not missing, but died at the trade Center. At the
very beginning, snay How was listed as the nine eleven victim.
After nine eleven, some public agency brought proceeding on behalf
of everybody on the list, the two thousand, seven hundred
people who are on the list and there are no
body recovered. There was a proceeding brought in servius who

(11:17):
are to have them judicially they are dead, and death
certificates ordered issued by the services for those twenty seven people.
And again with the Matthew RECEDINGSNA was included in that
as a results of that proceeding in the fact show
that everybody would be entitled to decertificate that they died
at the trade center except for two people, and one

(11:37):
of the two was and Philip, And there were two
cases of the surrogates. Representatives said it's not it's not fraud,
but we just need more evidence and we need more
information before we feel comfortable issuing the death certificate. And
again THEA was one of these two cases, and the
other one Juan la Fuente. Another strange ace, strange enough

(12:01):
that it's worth going into a bit of detail. Wan
the front A was last seen alive around six am
on nine eleven, on his way to a train station
in Pokeepsie, New York, where he lived with his wife, Colette.
At the time, Collette was the mayor of Poughkeepsie. Juan
worked for City Bank at one eleven Wall Street in Manhattan.

(12:22):
On nine eleven, he made it to Grand Central station,
where he swiped his metro card at eight oh six am. Then,
presumably he caught a subway to Wall Street and Broadway,
eleven hundred feet southeast of the World Trade Center. Per
court records, that trip typically took about sixteen minutes. Wan

(12:42):
likely exited onto the street around eight thirty am, only
sixteen minutes before American Airlines flight eleven the North Tower. However,
like snay Ha, Land did not work at the Trade Center,
he had no real reason to be there. In fact,
Bickly after exiting onto the street, he would have walked

(13:03):
the other way to his Wall Street office. So in
order to say that he died on nine eleven at
the Trade Center during the attacks, his family, like snay
House family, had to answer why he was there in
the first place. At first, they two chose the hero narrative.
They said that One probably saw the attacks and ran

(13:25):
into the towers to help people. As evidence, they cited
the fact that he was a volunteer fire marshal. Later, though,
a witness came forward and claimed that two or three
days before nine eleven, he overheard One say that he
planned to attend a meeting at the Trade Center. Okay,
but which meeting best guests the Risk Waters Financial Technology

(13:49):
Congress at Windows on the World on top of the
North Tower on the morning of nine eleven. However, as
with Snah, there's no proof that One was at the
Trade Center, no evidence, just speculation as to the critical
question of why he would have attended the conference why
he died. His family ditched the hero narrative and instead

(14:11):
cited frugality. They posited that he wanted free food. Wan
was so frugal, according to The New York Times that
quote he scavenged his morning paper from a dumpster. His
frugality is why he died. According to his family, His
wife Colette said, quote, it was a free breakfast. Now

(14:33):
with the Flente, The cops did consider non nine eleven
explanations for one suicide. One was undergoing psychiatric treatment for depression. Coincidentally,
on nine eleven, he had an eight pm appointment with
a psychiatrist, which obviously he missed. They also considered whether
or not he ran off. Wan and Colette had an

(14:55):
interesting marriage. According to The Times, once a month, Wants
stayed away from home overnight in Manhattan in a quote
shabby genteel tourist hotel. As to what one did at
the hotel, a manager said, quote, we don't ask those questions.
In addition, Juan's daughter, who said she had a good

(15:16):
relationship with him, could not remember whether or not he
called her on her birthday September, so, exercising caution, Pickepsie
Detective Walter Horton considered everything. He told The Times quote,
I don't want to find out six months from now
that he's living in the Bahamas. But in the end
a judge ruled that nine eleven was the answer, writing quote.

(15:40):
The absentee was described in polite terms by his wife
and Detective Horton as a frugal person. He would often
take advantage of trade shows offering free refreshments, such as
the one sponsored by Risk Waters. The morning of September eleven,
it is tragically ironic that the absentees zest for thriftiness

(16:03):
was the underlying factor which may have contributed in large
part to his unexpected demise. Under the totality of the circumstances,
there is no reasonable explanation for his disappearance other than
death by an act of terrorism. Therefore, the court determines
that Juan M. La Fuente died September eleven, two thousand one,

(16:29):
and with that family, unlike snay Haas family, got a
death certificate quickly. Mark Bogatin, the attorney hired by snay

(17:03):
House husband Ron, later referenced the Plante case multiple times
in court, arguing that in snay House case, like the
Puante case, nine eleven was the obvious answer, just common sense.
I mean, even without court being involved. It's submasing to me.
And I was talking to somebody in the bar and
they gave me the effects. It's just obviously that what else,

(17:24):
what else could have happened? She died at the trade center.
Why would you even consider anything else. It's like I said,
you can't stay present. There's no alien induction here. But
I'm pretty confident, you know, as a rationally human being,
it's highly unlikely there was an alien induction, and it's
more than highly unlikely there was some voul play. So
other than I was the foul play involved in what
al Qaida did. This is not what snay House family

(17:45):
originally thought in the beginning. They wanted the NYPD to
investigate everything, suicide, murder, everything, But by the time Mark
Bogatin enters the picture late two thousand three early two
thousand four, both snay House family and the NYPD, despite
previous clashes, agreed that sna Ha did die on nine

(18:06):
eleven at the Trade Center. Now though someone else is
on the case, Ellen Winner, the Guardian ad vit um,
the attorney appointed to represent sna in absentia, and basically
she says, not so fast. She was appointed by the
court to be represents. Nia's interesting, but she is. She
investated the facts like I investated the facts, and basically

(18:28):
her reports said, well, there's evidence that Nia led a
dangerous lifestyle, that she went to bars and lesbian bars
or bisexual bars, or I forget how they characterize it.
I think they're called bars fremented by women, I think
is what one of the reports referred to them as.
And then she may have been unfaithful and she may
have you know whatever. So she pointed to this dangerous

(18:53):
in her mind, dangerous life stuff as an alternative explanation
for Snia's disappearance. So basically the theory that oh, very
possible she ran went into the bar, had the unfortunate
circumstance of striking up an acquaintance with a person who
turned out to be a crazed killer, and that's how
she met her demise, demise to use the stupid term

(19:14):
um demise, and that's the exclamations. So since she made
since she had this dangerous lifestyle, went to bars and
may have been lesbian, Well she didn't say she died
because she was lesbian, but she did say because she
frequented bars uh and may have been unfaithful and struck
up acquaintances with strangers at these bars, that somehow, yeah,

(19:35):
she had a dangerous lifestyle, so we can't say with
any confidence, can't rule out foul play. And that was
her take on it, and that actually was the conclusion
reached by the surrogate, who was the judge, and the
final decision on the surrogate was because that there was
this dangerous lifestyle and she went to these bars and
stuff and all these you know, these things in her background.

(19:57):
Can't say that you can't rule out foul play and
she that she had my mind, that's just that's crazy
because for the reason I've already said, just crazy and
my p D thought it was crazy. Uh, prior to
the tactles it was crazy. And if you could go
and say she she was killed by a crazy killer,
you know, there has to be some evidence of that something.

(20:18):
So the crriot court rules, yes, she's dead, she's she's gone.
I think they set her day to death as three
years after her disappearance. Maybe she didn't die at the
Trade Center. And that was very upsetting experience. Well when
originally when her initially when her name was removed from
the list of people died at Trade Center, that was

(20:38):
very very upsetting to the family. By the family, I
mean her mother and father, I mean I mean Ron
was not happy either. I uh met the parents later
in the representation and the first time I met them,
I said the mother and she said to me Steia
was an American hero and meaning that she's one of
the people died at the Trade Center. And it was

(21:00):
the first time that it really really appreciated obviously from
the beginning, understood what the death of what's child would
mean does mean. Obviously appreciated that, but I didn't appreciate
how the fact that she had died at the Trade
Center and was included in this group of Americans who
had basically been killed because they were Americans. That fact

(21:22):
that circumstance gave her some solace and sort of eased
the pain. And so her death was not with that
certificance was part of a larger national tragedy. But she
said she was an American heroine. Also, I guess she
also believed that she would have been going to help
as a physician Sona's death, that that her death was

(21:43):
part of this larger national tragedy and this larger historical
significance even apart from her being as a physician going
to help people. Uh, it gave them some comfort and
some solace, and that was all taken away from them
when they ruled out, she's not she's not, she's not
on the list. And then obviously were very disappointed when
the trial judge ruled, oh, she died but not at

(22:04):
the Trade Center. And at that point we took an appeal.
We went to the Pelt Court. What did you think
when you got the decision? Wasn't surprised, I gas, I
thought it was ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. You know, as
an attorney, you know you win cases, your loose cases,
and and actually the first bless they had, the only
bless they had. You said, of the cases that you
guys an attorney or trial attorney, lawyering doesn't make a difference.

(22:28):
You could have Perry Mason, Mason you're gonna have, you know,
you have Johnny Conquer, definitely Bailey, or you're gonna have
the guy who got out law school you know yesterday,
not either. The cases doesn't matter. The cases are based
on the facts. The facts beek for themselves. The case
decides itself, you know, and then there's a temperate five temper.
Any cases where lawyering does make a difference, where could
go either way. And this was one of those cases,

(22:50):
a complicated case, a legacy case. We had one or
two conferences with the courts clerk before we actuid the hearing.
They were very, very doubtful of our case. I just
I was just surprised, I thought, to me, as a
not even being an attorney, just as a common as
a person walking around with I guess as a sentient.

(23:14):
That's the right pronunciation, as senting a human being. What
else you think one of the conclusion could you reach?
I guess the only the big question which everybody had
and that I would ask you is obviously, she says,
somewhere the night of the tenth. So it would have
been either with somebody she knew or with a stranger.
She would stay somewhere Ranticly, she could have walked up
the street all night. Possible, It's one of those. Yeah,

(23:37):
she could have been with a stranger, could have been
somebody she knew. She could have been walking literally walking
up I mean I remember was in college ones. Actually
I actually did that. I actually left the dorm at
eight at night. I didn't come back to like five
in the morning. She could have been doing that, walking around.
But more probably she would have been with somebody. If
if she was with somebody she knew, though, why would
they not come forward? Obviously she wasn't with somebody she knew. Well,

(24:00):
she wasn't with somebody that their family knew about. Okay,
they know that she was her last um, last trace
of her was a purchase he made a century one
because it's a credit card or whatever store receipt. I
think was like eight o'clock to night, eating something like that.
That's the last actual trace, so they know she was
attentual twenty one sometime that evening of the tenth. Uh

(24:21):
where she was in between there and the morning of
the eleven that, you're right, that's not it's not precisely
known or determined. Okay, just getting using logic. Could she
have been with somebody she knew, Uh, that's possible. But
like you just said, while it was somebody she do,

(24:43):
why did that person go forward? Okay? Could she have
been with somebody she didn't know, that's possible. Could she
have been with nobody like I, like I referred to
my experience one night in college walking that's possible. I
don't know, you know who knows? It's possible. She may
have been walking around the street with a heavy shopping
though I don't know. I forget how I mean, I

(25:08):
forget the size or weight of the purchase. Okay, you're right.
Maybe she wasn't walking the streets a bit. She probably
spending on the you're right, h so many questions, so
many unanswered questions. So much we don't know. But that's okay,
because sometimes the best clues are in the questions, in

(25:32):
what people hide, what they lie about, in what we
don't know. Next time, on Missing on nine eleven, I
just remember her confiding in me about not being happy
in her current position, feeling pressured, whether there was pressure
or not from her family, but feeling pressured to become
a doctor, and then realizing she didn't really want to become.

(25:53):
One homework this week one Ellen Winner the Guardian adl
item decline interview requests. Ellen, if you're listening, I'd still
love to speak with you. Two. Do you have any
new information on the La Fente case? You can reach
us by phone at one eight three three new Tips

(26:15):
that's one eight three three six three nine eight four
seven seven again one eight three three six three nine
eight four seven seven, or you can reach us via
email at tips at iHeart media dot com. That's tips,
T I p s at iHeart media dot com. Ben

(26:36):
Bowen is our executive producer. Paul Decan is our supervising producer.
Chris Brown is our assistant producer. Seth Nicholas Johnson is
our producer. Sam t Garden is our research assistant and
I'm your host and executive producer, John Wallzac. Cover art
by Pam Peacock Bluff One Day Judge voiced by Mike
Smith of New Orleans. Special thanks to Tamika Campbell at

(26:57):
iHeart and to Christoph Zapary in New Orleans. Also thank
you to Mark Bogutin and a soop rock original theme
music by ASoP Rock. Check out a soops website at
ASoP rock dot com. You can find me on Twitter
at at John Wallzack j O, n W A l
c z a K. If you like this show, check

(27:17):
out our first season, Missing in Alaska, about the nineteen
seventy two disappearance of two congressmen Missing on nine eleven,
is a co production of I Heeart Media and Greenford
Media