November 16, 2025 • 53 mins
" There are things we feel like we know that we we can't even say. It is even worse. worse. It is even more people."
Journalist Tara Palmeri and our own Adam Davidson have been writing and podcasting about the Epstein case since 2019. There's so much new Epstein news that it's easy to overlook the overwhelming, depressing, terrifying amount of crime and coverup that involves so many people besides just Trump. How is the worldwide intelligence apparatus involved? And how do you investigate a dead man?
On a macro leval... What are the limits of journalism? How protected from repurcussions are the rich and powerful? Why did they think they were immune? Is the social institution of shame obsolete? Is the legal bulwark against corruption just an illusion?
It's not an uplifting episode. But you will hear things you never knew about.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode of Mission Implausible, dealing with the Jeffrey Epstein scandal,
was recorded several weeks ago, so like a lot has
happened since then.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'shay.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers
in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around the.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
World, and part of our job was creating conspiracies to
deceive our adversaries.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the
conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Of you may not have heard. Could they be true
or are we being manipulated?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. Today's guest is
Tara Paul Marie. She's an American journalist. She's worked in
a variety of news organizations. She has a great sort
of YouTube podcast show that she does now very focused
on the on Epstein and the Maxwells. So, Tara, thank
you very much for joining us.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
So, my show, The Tara Paul Mary Show, is a
political podcast because I've long covered power and politics, but
I've also covered the Jeffrey Epstein story for a long
time as well, since his death, and I did some
investigative podcasts and magazine story and another number of other things,
and I stay in touch with the survivors and I've
just kept digging when a lot of people kind of.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Gave up on the story. So that's where we are
right now.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
But I do think it's the perfect story that intertwines
power and politics, which has always been my focal point,
my north star in my career, even when I was
based in Brussels covering the EU and brexitst and the
populist movements over there, and then when I was a
White House correspondent covering Trump for ABC News.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
No.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
I like to tangle with power. I try to figure
out what's going on there, and I'm always fascinated by
the personalities behind it and how it really works well.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
And since this podcast we try to talk about conspiracies
and conspiracy series. The Epstein thing plays on a variety
of levels with that thing. But one of the things
I've become interested in lately is if you look at
the Epstein history and what in the investigation, and then
he talks about quote unquote files and that type of thing,
this isn't just a US story, really, this is an
(02:06):
international story. It involves Maxwell's, it involves a lot of
other governments, and probably to include Russia and Israel and
a number of other places. But it's become like a
really core US political story, and that we almost think
that the Justice Department has all the answers on this,
and that it's up to Trump to let it go
or not let it come out. But don't a lot
(02:26):
of foreign governments have piece of this and understand what's
going on. And so if there's bad things in there
about powerful people, it's not just in the Justice Department.
It's held by others as well.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
It's probably very much held by mi I six, who
is tracking and xandrew around and his cavorting with various dignitaries.
I mean, if you have a royal who's out there
trying to do business deals with foreign dignitaries, I would
think you'd want to keep track on that. He obviously
has access to information, his mother, who saw who who
(02:58):
loved him the most really of all of them. You
know the fact that she's getting a briefing from the
Prime Minister every week. He has a certain status, and
I can't imagine that they weren't keeping track of him.
And we know that Jeffrey Epstein liked to brag about
spending time with African dictators Vladimir Putin. He liked to
(03:22):
show off the fact that he was friends with random
princes from countries that don't even have monarchies anymore, but
still have a certain status that gives them access to
the you know, upper echelon of wealth and finance in society.
And so those were the circles that he swam in,
and I think that gave him access to more valuable secrets.
I mean, who holds who hold you know this being spies,
(03:45):
former spies. There you go, who holds all the information
that you need most of the time.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So Epstein, for some people means, oh, you know the
list that was the client list, supposedly that was on
Pambondi's desk, that's what it is, or at something else.
And looking into this, the roots of this go back.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
To the Len Maxwell.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, but it goes back to her father. People don't
maybe not realize Americans may not realize who he is.
He was sort of the Rupert Murdoch this day. But
it actually goes back to like the nineteen fifties even
late forties, when he was in Berlin where apparently he
signed an agreement to work with the Russians with the Soviets,
and this thing balloons out. There's elements that are in France.
(04:26):
There's elements of espionage, there's elements of money. There are
mysteries involved, like where did Epstein get his money? How
did he? I mean, he wasn't qualified for any of
these positions that he got into, including his first teaching positions.
So there's all these mysteries. How would you describe the
entire Epstein drama.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
I think he's an international con man that various agencies
across the country found across the world, excuse me, found
to be useful because he offered them information on people
that he blackmailed or spent time with, and he used
sexual embarrassment at a way to get information or became
(05:09):
involved with them in ways that were criminal. But he
was the one who was willing to go to the
authorities first, like for example, in the Financial Towers ponzi scheme,
it was a three hundred million dollar scheme. This was
early on in his the largest ponzi scheme in the
world at the time with Stephen Hoffenberg. It's been reported
that he spoke to prosecutors at least three times. Now,
(05:32):
his partner in that scheme, Stephen Hoffenberg, spent the rest
of his life in prison, But Jeffrey Epstein did not.
You know, he was involved as an informant on a
I believe it was bear Stearn's case, but there was
another financial case that he was involved in. But this
was his network, and he's useful to all of these people. Also,
I thought something that was interesting that came up in
(05:53):
the the Lenn Maxwell tapes when she was interviewed by
Todd Blanche. Not that I take everything she says at
face value, but for a very long time she denied
the connection between her father. Excuse me, sorry, Robert Maxwell,
who I did an entire podcast away called Power the Maxwells.
You will enjoy it because it is very succession as
(06:13):
it's very Rupert Murdoch, as is going to help you
understand how influential of a figure he was at the time,
like she was the equivalent of Elizabeth Murdoch or or
or even more so, because she was a socialite hanging
out with the royals, and she was written about in
the newspapers as being this beautiful young socialite. So and
he was going to buy the New York Daily News.
He owned the Mirror in the UK. He would fight
(06:36):
for newspapers against Rupert Murdoch. He had MTV Europe, he
had Peregrine, so he'd even the McMillan and some of
the other top scientific publishing houses, so he had he
had a lot of influence through publishing. But it was
interesting because she admitted in this tape that actually her
father vouched for Jeffstein for a job in finance, when
(07:00):
clearly he was a college dropout known for being a
sex pest out of high school that he taught at
a Dalton And here's Robert Maxwell vouching for him. And
I'm like, well, how do they know each other? And
that's always been the question. There's always been a theory
that he introduced Glen to Jeffrey and then funneled money
(07:23):
to him off shore laundered money, knowing that either Masad
was going to get him because he was too compromised,
or he was going to have to kill himself because
he's squandered all the pensioners' money. He dies off the
side of his Yeah, yeah, Robert Maxwell. The lady Glen,
by the way, everyone around. These people die mysteriously, so
he dies off the side of his yacht. I similarly think,
(07:44):
and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but
I think he was probably too compromised because he had
stolen all this money from the pensioners, and Masad wanted
to get rid of him, and that's why he was
he died. These people, these men, they are not the
suicidal type. I was actually talking to Mark EPs last week,
and Mark Epstein is Jeffrey Epstein's brother, and we were saying,
I said, do you think that Jeffrey Epstein would kill himself?
(08:07):
Like you know him, he's your brother, and obviously he
wants he doesn't want it to be marked as a
suicide because he won't get the insurance money, right, and
he can prove foul play, can sue the government. Yeah, yeah,
there's more money in it for him if his son,
if his brother was killed. But I do think there
is something of the level of ego to like ego maniacs, narcissism,
that do not make them the type that killed themselves.
(08:28):
They think they can get out of everything. They treat
people terribly. You don't steal from pensioners and not think
you can't get out of it, so I think he
was killed. He funneled the money to Epstein, who got
it to Glenn Maxwell.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Now we don't have.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Any bank transfers, you don't have anything to prove that.
But how did Glenn Maxwell live in New York City
and when she got there only have one hundred thousand
dollars to her name. He's bankrupt and suddenly she's living,
you know, in a she's living in a multimillion dollar
apartment next to sid Jeffrey Epstein's, which is the Big
Guests townhouse on Upper Eastside. It just seems like, why
(09:02):
would he just take care of this woman who he
didn't even want to have sex with according to his tapes.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I would tell us a little bit more about Robert
Maxwell because I remember Maxwell his paper in Britain was
people believed it was actually funded by in Russian interests.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
Is that I think that there was certainly a feeling
that Robert Maxwell was not what he seemed. You know,
I didn't know that at the time that people thought
it was funded by Russia, and I didn't we didn't
hear that, but there was certainly a feeling that he
was not working for the UK government, although he ended
up being an MP at one point a member of Parliament.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
It's not amazing.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And Robert Maxwell, that's not his real name. He was
in Coslavakia, right, He was a check to who just
was able to get out in nineteen thirty nine before
the Nazis marched in. He did end up in British
intelligence in the OSS during the war, and then after
the war was posted in Berlin, where he maintained a
close real life relationship supposedly, it said, with the Soviets.
(10:03):
But then later he rose up and I'm not sure how,
but he became a great power inside of the UK,
a publisher and a newspaper baron. And then in the
end it turns out he stole basically all his pincherders' money,
had gone bankrupt, and died mysteriously on his falling off
his yacht. Now you mentioned Mosad, and I'm not really
(10:25):
not clear on if there's what or if the relationship
is between Maxwell and Mosad was during the fifties, sixties, seventies.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
He was buried in the Mount of Olives in Israel,
which is reserved.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
You're rich and he could do that, but you know,
but do you think so, oh, yeah, if you're rich enough.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Here's the thing I don't understand.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
It seems to me like all of these men are
sort of playing off a bunch of different intelligence agencies.
Did you ever see that often when you were working
in the region. I mean, it just seems like these
these men kind of are They're not your everyday asset.
They're powerful men, and they seem to be being able
to sort of work for all different agencies, and they
probably give them preferable like business terms, because you know,
(11:06):
it's almost like it's valuable.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
It's valuable for your business.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
It's valuable to the Russians that have people in other
countries that are sort of compromised with the Russians because
they can do even lots of stuff to benefit benefit
the Russians. And I remember, I think there was an
art clause reading recently where it said that one of
the British Foreign Office reports, like in the late fifties,
said that his program on press could be a front
for Soviet scientific espionage. But when you say intelligence agency
(11:31):
and stuff, it's hard for US because CIA was a
foreign intelligence organization. So like going after just rich people
who were sort of I don't know, had newspapers and
stuff wasn't part of the game, right, I mean, maybe
the Israelis for some purpose, certainly the Russians, right.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I mean, if if Robert Maxwell, who's an incredibly powerful
individual in the sixties and seventies in the UK, if
he wants to talk to Mosat to pass on some information,
I'm sure they'll listen. But there's a difference between that
and him being controlled by That sort of gets into
conspiracy theory. I think oftentimes rich people will try to
manipulate intelligence agencies with information, right, and then try to
(12:10):
get governments to do what they want. We've certainly seen that,
you know, in the run up to the in the
run up to the Iraq War, there were a number
of dissident Iraqis who work into members of the Republican
Party and to you know, elements of the US intelligence community,
mostly the military, who were you know, trying to get
them to invade. But so Maxwell dies, his daughter gets
together with Jeffrey, and money starts to flow. Now back
(12:33):
to Jeffrey Epstein. He's a college dropout, and yet he
still gets a job teaching at this high school, right,
this elite high school, Dalton Yep, he doesn't have any
teaching certificates, he doesn't have a college education. So how
does he get this job?
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Well, he's working for Bill Barr's father, as in the
former attorney general. The web of powerful people around him
is so it's so amazing. He owned a modeling agenc
he called mc squared and his partner, Jean lup Brenell,
mysteriously dies in a French prison hanging himself.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
This is this is epsteinc not Bar's father.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Yeah, exactly, And so it's just like everything around him
is just so mysterious. How are these people so interconnected?
He's got meetings with Bill Burns, who you guys know,
he was a former deputy Secretary of State. He met
with Jeffrey Epstein, he goes on to be CIA direct.
I mean he had really high level contacts and they
were willing to meet with him.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yeah, I mean yeah, rich people are all around each other.
And when you go back to like he had these
connections with agencies. You know, frankly, if you have that
kind of money and that kind of clout, it's relationships
with politicians that are much more valuable for you. So
if you go over the heads of agencies. If you're
friends with the Prime Minister and your friends with the president,
(13:51):
and your friends with people around, then you can get
things done because they tell agencies what to do, and
they actually the ones can move money and move things around.
You know, if you're in with the royal family in
England and you're in with the Prime Minister, and you're
in with the you know, Prime Minister of Israel and stuff,
you can you can move around as you wish.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
Yeah, I agree, but also sometimes it's like you need
the bureaucrats from time to time, and a Secretary of
State is a pretty powerful politician.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I would say, but what's he going to do for
I mean, he met him once. My guest would be
Bill Burns has met like one hundred and fifty thousand
senior people.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
But I don't know what.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
What we What does he want?
Speaker 5 (14:28):
Yeah, so this guy's a registered sex offender who procured
a mine of a prostitution. He's getting a seat with
the Deputary Secretary of State who goes on to BCIA director.
And here's the one thing I noticed from the emails
and all the reporting on his relationship with Jess Staley
so when he was at JP Morgan, he was Epstein's
banker even after this defender sex offense. And the thing
(14:49):
that was so interesting to me is that when things
weren't going well, Jess Staley and he had, you know,
set Jess Saley up with women snow white and beauty
and the beasts, and Jess salely admitted to having a
f with a woman who we met through Jeffrey Epstein,
and they had maintained this relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, and
that relationship with JP Morgan really sort of allowed him
to get back into re ingratiate himself into these upper classes.
(15:13):
So this was very valuable for him, and Jes vouched
for him, and so did a number of others at
the highest levels. But the point is that when Jess
Staley started to be started to see that he was
getting pushed out of the bank, Jeffrey Epstein helped him
land a job as CEO of Barclays Bank. Certainly connecting
and doing things for all these wealthy and powerful men.
They weren't just around him for just like, oh yeah,
(15:34):
Jeffrey Epstein's a laugh, What a great time that creepo is.
There was something in it for them.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And it's and it's partly him providing women at parties
and things or what's the what's the cakes.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
I think it was partially providing women. Money laundering. I
think it was trafficking. I think putting money off shore.
I do think a big part of it though, was
like once he knew that you did something that would
cause social embarrassment, he didn't have to say it to you,
but there was a known imploy Yeah, it's like just
like an implied knowing, and when he asked you to invest,
(16:14):
you did it. I mean we saw Mark Rowan, who
led it Apollo Hedge Fund, give Epstein hundreds of million dollars.
It's crazy for a state planning and tax purposes. Jeffrey
Epstein was in some like master estate planner. The reason
I keep going back to the banking industry is because
at least you can follow the money there, you know
(16:34):
what I'm saying. Where it's a little bit more difficult
when it comes to influence, because I think that's what
we're talking about right now, is influence and information.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Right so is for former agency officers. You know, we
would meet hundreds of people. If you're on a diplomatic tour,
you've meet hundreds of people, and you would play off that, oh,
I know so, and so when you call somebody knew
it was like, oh, we have someone in common and
name them like okay, have lunch. But then there's a
wit weaning process. So the fact that some Jeffrey Epstein
or a CIA officer meets somebody doesn't mean much if
(17:04):
it's one or two meetings. But we're also trying to
figure out is how their vulnerabilities here, how there is
this person useful to me? And there's a sort of
a weaning, weeding out process. And so for for Jeffrey Epstein,
I my sense is there's a large funnel on one
end where he's trying to meet everybody, and he's also
trying to figure out who is of use to him,
(17:26):
who's black mail bull, who was looking for women, who's
looking for you know, things that only he can provide.
And I don't think every person who met him is,
but I think, you know, those are the people he
focused on. So just for starters though, So he's fired
from this job, you know, at the high school, and
he ends up running the finances for this guy who
(17:48):
owns Victoria's Secret, Well.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Was less Wexter his first job. I don't think it was.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
I think he did the Ponzi scheme first, and then
he worked at bear Stearns. Then it's unclear how far
back the relationship was all and what he did for
Les Wesner, who was the founder of Victoria's Secret, he
wasn't actually working for the company.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
He was managing a personal.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, that's right, managing as wealth. And the same for Evercrabts.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
Yeah owned, Yeah, it's called l Brands and they own
bath and body works.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Basically, they own malls, everything you see in the mall.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Okay. One of the mestatries I'd like to dine into, though,
is is how his is his human trafficking. And one
of the mysteries for me is in the US, if
there were hundreds of women who were abused this way
taken to the island, it seems to me, at least
now a lot of them would be willing to come forward.
But my understanding is a lot of these women were
(18:43):
pulled out of like Eastern Europe and the Soviet you know,
former Soviet Union, Russia, which means that there would be
money involved, which means that there would be room for
Russian you know, Russian intelligence services in mafioso to get
involved in this. It would also be one reason why
one none of these women would come forward, because they're like, hey,
you know, we've got Natasha in Moscow and if you
(19:04):
like fuck with us, you know we'll have her talk. Right.
That gives them, the Russians control as well. So what
is your sense of now of like, what do we
understand about the human trafficking network that Jeffrey Epstein was
I think clearly involved in, because that would also involve money, transfers, travel,
there would be digital dust, right, You've got to write back,
(19:26):
it'd be somehow, emails back and forth, communication involved all
these things.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
Sometimes can't you do.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
This without yeah, without all these trails?
Speaker 5 (19:35):
Okay, So there were a number of girls that he
found from Eastern Europe, Asia, et cetera. We don't know
these girls like, they haven't come forward. In fact, it's
mostly the American girls. And if you notice it, and
by girls, I mean they're women. Now they're my age,
they mean I'm older. There's probably only about two dozen
of them that have come forward, I think, and the
(19:55):
FBI estimated a thousand which probably means there's even more righteoms.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
So a big part of that is fear.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Fear because of the men involved in these circles, fear.
Some of them just received NBA payouts. Some of them
are just afraid because they know what could happen to them,
or they don't want to deal with the stress, or
they don't want people to know, or they have fe
that shame. There's so many different reasons why. But in
particular when it comes to the girls that were foreign,
I think they used that modeling agency to traffic girls.
(20:26):
That was certainly a way to do that. They would
find them and recruit them to be models, and they
and some of these girls thought, oh wow, well you
mean your friends with the owner of Victoria's Secret. It's
my big break. And then here they are, and they
are they have their passports taken from them. They are
his sex slaves. They live in his house, and some
of them stayed with him for a long time, maybe
Stockholm syndromes trauma. I can only imagine what that's like now.
(20:50):
I also know from Virginia Juphre that that she would
be sent out to other countries like Thailand, and she
would said and he said, go find me twins in Thailand,
so she would go to Thailand. She went to Thailand
and that's actually when she escaped him and she met
her husband, married him instantly, just to get away from him.
Then moved to Australia to be as far away from
(21:10):
Epstein as she could possibly be after years and years
of sexual abuse from very high ranking people in government.
You know, she accused Ehud Barak of raping her. She
accused George Mitchell, a senator from Maine. She accused Bill Richardson,
She accused a number of others, and.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
You know, this is.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
This This was the kind of set that she was around,
and so she felt that the safest place for her
to be would be in Australia. She finally comes forward
about her story about Prince Andrew in twenty ten, and
then about a decade later, the Crown actually two decades later,
to be frank, they come forward and they pay her
a historic settlement. But that's all to say. It was
(21:58):
an international scheme. You can see from flight logs they're
constantly moving around. But then they also had their their
micro i'd call it micro but pyramid scheme that they
ran through. This Palm Beach High School where they told
the girls, if you bring another girl, you get three
hundred dollars. And I don't think that they I think
they were actually pretty smart about it, and they very
(22:19):
rarely brought to many of the high school girls over
to And by smart, I mean they tried to minimize
some risk and they used more of the foreign girls
when they were moving them abroad. Although Virginia, you can
see the flight logs, was traveling all over the world
with them. You were saying about foreigners, I think born women,
and I think that was through the modeling promises, because
(22:40):
that's the kind of for that's that was a common
thing and seemed plausible, and especially for some of these
women that are coming from Eastern Europe and Russia or.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Some of these justment circumstances.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
Yeah, yeah, why does Glaine Why is Glene Maxwell.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Get so involved? But little I've looked at it looks
like she actually did some of this stuff before she
even met Epstein, like for related to her father and
some of his activities.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And maybe really I never heard that.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Actually, I will send you an article that I've just
read about that. It doesn't mean it's true, but like.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, there were reports of her bringing posh but not
particularly smart women over to the house, and people were
commenting on this. And of course her father is old,
really fabulously wealthy, and he can make your career or not.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I did not know this, that she was trafficking for
her father.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
There's an allegations of it.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yes, you know, that might make sense.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
I always thought they had a twisted relationship based on
my reporting and how he would. He was actually pretty
abusive to her the way that he speak to her,
But he also had this weird relationship with her where
they were meow at each other and I know it's
very weird. And he praised her for her beauty, but
he said, you know, she's my favorite.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
She looks the most like me.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
And we've been doing this for twenty minutes and we
still haven't mentioned Trump yet, right, we're still story.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Yeah, well I'm about to mention him and you go,
and then Adam.
Speaker 7 (24:23):
Just yeah, you guys know that and I are dear
friends and worked very closely together.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
She's been talking shit about you.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Oh really, yeah, I said that.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
I was like, I was brought into this story, this
wild story through Adam Davidson and we will live.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I hope to get down to the bottom of it,
but I don't know if we ever will.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
But yeah, Robert Maxwell did Glenn much like Trump treats Avanka,
where he sees her as an accessory. He liked to
bring her to parties. He felt like she would take
the place of the wife. And actually, you know, Glenn
met Trump through her father. He tried to She tried
to sell Donald Trump gifts, these gifts and they would
(25:03):
go to parties on the Hudson and their relationship goes
back because he was the owner of the Daily News
and they all go way way back.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
We have our colleague Adam Davidson here with us, so Adams,
we talk about Epstein stuff. This is really hard for
us because we talk about conspiracy theories. This thing is
so crazy and there's so many people. You could just
list all of the people and the places and the names,
and it sounds like you're trying to create a conspiracy
because it's like this person knows that person, this person
worked here, and this has money and the money Jim
here and the girl. But like a lot of that's true,
(25:35):
so like and a lot of it is out there no,
So why is this not actually all pulled together so
that for people who want to know?
Speaker 4 (25:41):
So, Hi, Tara.
Speaker 7 (25:42):
Tara and I work together on this story for a
very intense year or more, and I think we both
went through a lot. It's a dark one. I first
heard about Jeffrey Epstein on the set of The Big Short,
just to name drop, like I was advising Adam McKay,
the writer director, and like, in between takes he had
(26:05):
just somehow learned. I was on set as like the
journalist expert to talk about finance, and I like condescendingly said, no,
none of what you're saying is possible, because if that
were true, everyone would know about it and it would
be like all those people would be in jail. It
can't be sure enough. It was the rare case where
(26:28):
it completely batshit conspiracy theory turned out to be completely true.
I mean, this is Tara, you and I. This is
what is so difficult for us emotionally, is like there
are things we feel like we know that we can't
even say because of legal reasons or because we were
told it by people who you know, victims who asked
us to keep it secret. It is even worse worse,
(26:52):
it is even more people. And what's amazing is it
really implicates it's not just an in place, many of
the most respected people, most powerful people in the world,
institutions Harvard. It made me think, like, if you're gonna
do a conspiracy, you should make it as big as
possible and touch as many people as possible because it's harder.
(27:14):
You know, if it was like fifteen bank managers in Joplin, Missouri,
like maybe you could bring it down.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Could you take us through a bite sized piece of
this alex Acosta, right, he gives a sweetheart deal to Epstein,
you know, maybe getting Trump off the hook and other people,
and then later maybe he's named secretary of late you know,
how does this he ends up on the cannet.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Yeah, I mean I have to agree with Adam on
that it does feel like everybody it's like this secret
that's just tying them all together. It's the kind of
consensual secret. And if they let the House of Domino's
fall or the House of Cards fall, then they all
go down together, so they have to stick keep it up.
I don't know if there is a direct line between
(27:56):
alex Acosta and this deal and become the Secretary of Labor.
But I have to say that, you know, he dealt
with a lot of very prominent Republicans at the time
to deal with it. Ken Starr, who has a lot
of influence in the party, J Leftkwitz now Alan Derschowitz,
who has a lot of prominence in the Republican Party.
Bill Barr at the time was I think a deputy
(28:18):
Attorney General under Bush. This this case went all the
way up to Gonzalez, who was AG at the time Bush.
So I you know, to deal with that kind of
sensitive type of case, he's getting. This type of exposure
probably puts him on like federalists lists that maybe he
wasn't at at the time. Maybe it helps him with
his buddies in Washington and Tyre.
Speaker 7 (28:36):
One thing that I find like, so head Messing is
like on this show most conspiracies, it's like you just dismissed,
Like come on, Like, it's not like alex Acosta signed
a secret deal. But with this, the things we know
happened are the same kinds of things as alex Acosta
became labor secretary because he protected bad people. We don't
(28:58):
know if that's true, right, We don't have a that
that's true, and that.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Might be know what was in the files. He would
know like who was implicated, and it's like oh yeah,
And so later it's like, I want to keep him,
you know, keep him sweet. So I'm not claiming that
there was a like a written conspiracy. You're being a
little bit of a conspiracy animate But.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
That's Mill bargaining back in a big way. Maybe he
was like, hey, I know it's going in the Epstein files.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Make me your age.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
So if you have a big conspiracy, it's very easy
to know hang conspiracies off of it. And so the
one that seems to be the one that's we're focused
on now is Trump.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Trump tied to it.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
They were best friends he introduced to his wife. From
your experience, Adam and Tara, do you think Trump is
a central player in the ugliness of this or he's
just another one of these big shots that made his
way through the process.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I think it's central to all of it.
Speaker 5 (29:50):
I think it's partially why this story has come back
in such a way because in someone's like make it
go away.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
You're wondering why why, why, why why?
Speaker 5 (29:59):
And the more evidence comes out, it's like, whoa these
guys were as close as we believed they were. They
were very good friends, they liked The thing that bonded
them was their love of women.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Hmmm.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
He's on the jet a bunch of times, he's in
the book of bazillion times, he's writing cards about their
secret trysts.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
What more is there?
Speaker 5 (30:21):
They have a common front in Paolo's on Poli, who
allegedly introduced Trump to Malania.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
It's just like there, you and I had.
Speaker 7 (30:28):
A very weird and fun afternoon with if you remember Tara, Yeah,
just an interview. So on the list of things that
are upsetting about this story, so what one thing is.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Like?
Speaker 7 (30:44):
I think Epstein stood out as unusually voracious, unusually calculating,
but I think a lot. I mean, we talked to
models who said, like that was that whole scene of
like sixteen year old girls rich guys. There was a
bunch of locations in Europe, in the Caribbean, in New
(31:04):
York and Palm Beach and older rich men having sex
with teenage girls was I don't know how to say
it other than it was widely accepted as not a
weird thing. I mean, we heard so many stories. I
think you see it getting more unusual and certainly by
the early two thousands, there's no question. I mean, he
(31:27):
himself says it. Trump was central to that party scene,
certainly in the New York part of it and in
the Florida part of it. I think that if you
were around those parties in the early nineties the mid
nineties and someone said, hey, who's like central to this,
I do think you would have said Donald Trump, like
he was a key figure. It's not just he's the
(31:47):
president now, so we're picking him out. Although the way
I look at it for all the people who spent
time with Epstein more than just a really casual moment
is if they didn't have sex with young girls, it
wasn't because they it was available to them, and they
knew it was available to them. So the best you
can say for anybody who spent serious time with him
(32:07):
is they were in a setting where other men were
clearly having sex with young girls and they didn't do
anything about it.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
But also Jeffrey kind of pushed them on. Did he
pushed the girls on them? He wanted you to do
it because he knew that they may be underage or
it might be illegal, And that was the bachanall kind
of environment that you got. And I think that in
some ways he groomed the elites around him, and so
did Glenn Maxwell why she was so central to all
this into thinking like this is totally normal and nothing's
(32:35):
going to happen. It's a great time. Just come by
Jeffrey Epstein's We're a good time. It's like the frat house.
It's fun, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Then there's the twist that he would try to use this,
and that's you know, because obviously, if you're doing this,
you know you're either just a sexual psychopath or you're
trying to do it for a reason. And if I recalled,
this wasn't Bill Gates along one time, and then he
tried and Bill Gates was cheating on his wife, and
Epstein then tried to use that is extortion against Ogates,
and Bill get came out publicly and then got divorced.
Speaker 7 (33:01):
In all well, his wife says that it was a
relationship and it was what he was doing with Epstein
that led to the divorce. I had two things I
wanted to ask, So one is, just have you talked
about intelligence? Because I feel like when I was working
with Tara, I didn't know any spooks and now I
know to CIA former case officers, and I feel like
(33:23):
one thing you have convinced me of is the idea
that Jeffrey Epstein is an intelligence, that he is himself
an officer of either the Massade or the CIA is
very unlikely. It's unlikely he's a run asset where everything
he did was driven, right. Can you talk about that,
because that is a very persistent rumor. I mean, he
might be a guy who talks to intelligence people, right,
(33:45):
I mean there's lots of those people. I mean I
might be one of those people.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Right. If he's running in these circles, it wouldn't be
unusual for him to, like, you know, be someone who
talks to intelligence from time to passes on tip or
things like that. But when people think of like an asset,
they think of like control, Like we control him, he
does what we say. And someone who's you know, if
(34:11):
you're a billionaire and you're running in those circles, you
know there's there's not going to be control over you.
I don't see what the motivation would be, what the
what the hold would be. This is a sociopath who
was out for himself.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
So Jerry's right, in our parlance, there's different levels of
people who are in you could say, are in touch
with an intelligent sagancy. So if someone's important and his
friends with Clinton and Bush and Trump and talks to
prime ministers, and this goes to Israel and Russia and
he talks to a senior politician and one of the
senior politicians says, you know, you should talk to the CIA,
or CIA tells the CIA guys, you talked to him,
(34:45):
He's got all this stuff. Yeah, there will be someone
will meet him, probably more likely an analyst than you know,
someone in clandestine service. Listen to what he has, just
you know, a contact. It's completely there's no control. There's
no to try to suborn that person or ask them
to sign secrecy agreements or anything like that. That's very
(35:05):
separate from the kind of people Jerry and I try
to meet as we're looking for access to secrets. We're
trying to find people who have access to government can't
get any other way. And then, like Jerry says, control,
that's our term for they understand that they're actually operating
secretly working for US in the CIA, and they're keeping
that secret from their government or other and they have
to and to do that. They have to keep themselves
(35:27):
safe and they have to follow our rules, and so
that's a controlled asset. This person doesn't fit that. In
the slightest. It's certainly possible that Epstein, who's in all
these circles, talk to somebody in the CIA, but that
doesn't mean that the CIA would then do to go
over there and talk to that person and tell me
what he said, we're not doing all. So, Russia has
a wider spectrum of what they consider use of people.
(35:50):
So if there's people who are useful to them just
because they say things that are in benefit to Russia,
they will maintain contact with them and try to subtly
given information into them so they'll use it. You've heard
people talk about that term useful idiots and all, and
so their view is different from ours. So the way
Jerry and I move up through the system and get
(36:10):
promoted is by recruiting controlled sources who provide us unique information.
If I meet someone and then interesting, but it's just
a you know, the person walked in it came into
the CIA, got a badge to come in as a visitor,
tell us something, and left as an American Like that
doesn't of no value to me professionally, like there's a
(36:31):
piece of information that gets into our system, great, but
that doesn't mean we say that we give that any
extra weight over anything else that's in there.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
The dog whistle. There is that CIA or mostly most
side of the conspiracy theories. I heard it's the you know,
it's the great Jewish conspiracy. That exactly, Yeah, it's the
mode and the Jews are running this international sex ring.
I mean, that's what they're implying, as opposed to he
talked to a Mosaide officer and gave tips or did
(36:59):
them a favor. I think there's a huge difference between
that and what's being implied when they say he's you know,
he works for most as if that explains it. So
I just want to go back to alex to cost
again because I wasn't quite satisfied with yeah with you, Adam,
So maybe I got the facts wrong. But when I
look at this, Epstein was up on dozens of charges
(37:23):
with with like dozens of high level people, likely including
Donald Trump as they're looking into this right who they
were good friends at the time, and what the charges
they were looking at was basically raping a fourteen year
old girl. Right, this is the charges he was looking at.
And for reasons that have never been explained that I
don't understand, alex Acosta cut him a deal where it
(37:45):
was basically soliciting a prostitute. And then he got to
like still able to fly around on his jet, he
could live at home, he only had to show up
to jail on weekends. He didn't even do that. But
what he did have is he had reams of people
who were involved in his network. Right, it wasn't just
Jeffrey Epstein, it was Epstein and lots of other people
(38:08):
who were around him, influential people. Yeah, three administrations later,
alex Acosta still knows what the charges are. He knows
what's in the files. He's read them, he collected them, right.
And so it seems to me not that he would
like write Donald Trump and say I'm going to talk
unless you give you a cabinet. But he doesn't even
(38:28):
need to say that, right, and not just Donald Trump,
because right now he's a big wigan like Newsmax. Right,
he's been given the sinecure where he basically does nothing
and they pay him a lot of money.
Speaker 7 (38:39):
You know, there's there's normal like just how America works
kind of scuzziness. And I do think the two thousand
and six to two thousand and eight like miscarriage of
justice where this guy the cops felt like they knew
that he had dozens hundreds of you know what I
would call rapes.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
I mean, I think they are rapes.
Speaker 7 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah, And this was ongoing. There was crossing state lines,
there was airplanes, like, there was all the things that
either a local or federal prosecution should work. What he
ended up getting convicted of is one count of prostitution,
which several people have told me, can you even call
like a fourteen year old prostitute?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Like is that?
Speaker 7 (39:17):
What does that mean? Like that is child rape?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Whatever?
Speaker 7 (39:19):
Like whether you pay for it or not.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
And he didn't.
Speaker 7 (39:22):
But not only did he get this really short sentence,
he was allowed to leave during the day on a
work study thing, and he created this office for himself.
And we have pretty good reason to think he was
having sex with underage girls while he was serving his sentence.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
But he kept his mouth shut. He didn't talk. I mean,
he didn't roll on any of the people in his network,
who were all big donors, who were senior people, arguably
Donald Trump right, arguably other people because it wasn't we're
describing this as though that back then, as though it
was just Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 7 (39:57):
No, No, it was it was.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yes, it seems to me Jeffreys at that time he
(40:33):
had two choices. He could roll on all the other
guys and try to get a lighter sentence, or he
could go to the other guys and say put pressure
on the prosecutor.
Speaker 7 (40:41):
What I'm trying to get at is was this normal
crappy behavior? Like was this just the normal, like you know,
sadly just unsurprising fact that really rich people live in
a different legal system than poor people, and or was
this something it is explained by just a rich guy
hiring big lawyers and throwing their light around. I do
think that explains a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
But the situation is different now about legal stuff. But
is this something that could be reopened? Because is this
something that could be dug into I think people.
Speaker 7 (41:11):
But I don't know if the legal system has a
method of I mean, I guess I'm genuinely asking, does
it of like if someone's dead there's no active case,
like what I mean, Congress could theoretically and you know,
like on the list of like maddening things about the
alex Acosta deal is Glaine Maxwell and then two other
major co conspirators were given this like we promised never
(41:34):
to prosecute you agreement. And that's actually what one of
the ways Glaine's trying to get the Supreme Court to
throw out her conviction. That really, I mean legal scholars
told is that's weird. Like nobody like they didn't give
any information. This wasn't immunity in exchange for you know,
normally you go to the bottom people to get the
top people. You don't give you don't just give the
(41:56):
top people and their cronies blanket immune. So that is very,
very weird, I would say, looking into Alexicosta, this wasn't
a man with a lot of backbone. He wasn't like
a highly experienced at turn. You know, if you remember
this is after all those it almost seems sweet at
this point. But when Bush fired or Alberta. Gonzalez fired
(42:18):
all those prosecutors for not being sufficiently loyal to George W.
Bush and brought in a bunch of more mediocre, you know,
sycophantic lawyers, and alex Aicosta was one of them. So
we never do that again. We'll never do that. Obviously,
we learned our lessons. But part of what's maddening is
what we do know. Like I'm still nervous to say
all the names that I feel fairly confident we're complicit,
(42:42):
but you know the names, like you know what the
names are a lot of them start with B and
the name Bill and and like we can go to
the edge cases or the like cases we don't know
for sure, and that's worth doing, but there's lots of
cases we basically know and and those people are not
facing anything.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
But it's right because we worked in a secret verization
and our job was to protect sources and secrets forever.
Like so to Jerry and I, we could still be
prosecuted if on this podcast we say something that's.
Speaker 7 (43:14):
Class Ye give me something.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
If we were to out you as our asset, Adam,
you know you.
Speaker 7 (43:18):
Could see No, no, yeah, we don't.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
But the President, I says, can say those things now
are are unclassified. And they did that with all the
Kennedy se right, so there's there was real secrets that
are still being held.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
But the j F.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Kennedy assassination not tied to who killed them, and stuff,
But the president said, nope, that's all free game. Anybody
can have it. Now can can a president or anybody
in the legal system say, now, that's all free to
be seen.
Speaker 7 (43:41):
Because well, I think a president can declassify anything, right, but.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
This isn't classified information for most parts getting held by
the justice the Justice Department. I mean, you could redact
the victims' names and release it all, right, I think so, Well,
there would be a lot of suing. So let's say,
you know, mister X meets Epstein once, or somebody says
to a prosecutor early in the case, oh so, and
so was it Epstein's You know, John Seifer was at
(44:06):
Epstein's party. Well, you know, twenty years later that comes out,
that's in the Epstein file. So that somebody said you
were at a party, you know, as part of the investigation.
You know, you don't want your name even if you
didn't do anything wrong. And then and then there's what's
right and wrong is right and wrong in legal and illegal.
So if someone let's just pretend a good what of
Epstein's best friends, What if there's photographs of him in
(44:28):
a three way with Jeffrey Epstein with a nineteen year
old girl. That's not illegal, but that's like pretty fucking disgusting.
So so you know, the Justice Department can't prosecute you
for that. It's just that gets into politics and araunity. Right,
do you release it or don't you?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (44:44):
I mean I would like you know, I'm a journalist.
I would like it all released. I think we as
a nation, indeed, this case really broke me in a
lot of ways as as a journalist like it. I
think I had a really naive belief that the truth
gets out eventually, that powerful people can try and prevent
(45:05):
the truth from coming out, but once it comes out,
they're screwed. And I think we now live in a
world where, like God, it's just kind of known, right,
like we basically if you want to pay attention, I mean,
it's enough is out there and it doesn't have much
of an impact, and everyone seems like, you know, I
(45:26):
see people on like fari Zakaria or whatever, who in
my view, shouldn't be part of at a minimum, shouldn't
be part of polite society, Like we shouldn't be engaging
them or you know, I sort of thought like courts
should have a presumption of innocence. But I don't know
that society needs a presumption of innocence. Like in my view,
if you spent like there are people, big names who
(45:47):
we have on the flight records, they were on a
plane with jevery Epstein and underage women. So if you
went to a friend's house or rode on a friend's
plane and they were hanging out with a fifteen year
old and it wasn't there, and there wasn't their niece,
and let's say that's all that happened, nothing else happened,
that's still really gross. Like if you've been say a
(46:10):
president or a head of a university or a Nobel
Prize winning scientist, like that's not cool and that's not
like some theory that we know that. So I don't
know it's I find.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
The death of shade. But let me ask you another
mystery that I flee will solve and will it make
a difference. So Todd Blanche was Trump's personal lawyer, poof
you know, a little dustonomy, he's now number two with DOJ,
number two with DOJ, Like I really, I imagine a
really friggin busy guy has nothing better to do but
(46:42):
get at an airplane and see Glene Maxwell for two days, right,
and to sit with her and her lawyer who he's
personal friends with, and then all of a sudden she
goes to Club fed. She goes on to which is
which is my understanding from reading the media, is not legal.
Someone he had to sign a waiver or exemption. Somebody
(47:04):
signed something. There had to be paperwork to get her
to put her into this, into this camp. I'd like
to know who that was, Yeah, and why they Why
is it you know that she she gets it. You know,
somebody's protecting a child sex trafficker. Dallanne Maxwell. She's been
put into a nice the nicest prison possible. But you
know what it's like that we've who signed that thing.
(47:26):
The prisons just keep put them out shut.
Speaker 7 (47:28):
And that's what's fascinating that we like there. I used
to I remember an economist talking about, like in the West,
generally corruption as an aberration and people hide it. In
most former Soviet Union nations in the Middle East, et cetera,
corruption is it's not even hidden like you you know,
like an Azerbaijan, you can you know, you can go
(47:49):
to the houses of the ministers who only ever worked
in government office and they have these massive mansions and
and it's it almost like can it be called corruption
because corruption seems to imply there's a nice corrupt system
that is then you know, corrupted. But if that is
the system and this one and we've had, you know, like,
let's not pretend America has never had corruption. I just
(48:10):
read the Ulysses S. Grant biography, and even though it
makes a strong case that Grant himself was not corrupt,
his administration was wildly corrupt. But this is just such
a crystal clear case of Okay, we're not like nobody's
it's just out in the open, like we know what's
going on.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
We know in the fact that Trump won't say definitively
I will not pardon her, right, He's like, yeah, let
me think about it, which is but for all.
Speaker 7 (48:37):
No, John, my understanding is the way you use compromont
is you don't call up and say, hey, John, you
did these things.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Here's a video.
Speaker 7 (48:44):
You say, hey, you had a really fun time in
that weekend in Miami that was really wild. Hey, by
the way, I got this friend of mine who was
trying to do some business.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
I'd love it if you would talk to him.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
What you're doing is you're fishing for a compliment on
your article in the New York Yes, which I said,
which I've said, is an excellent I think description of
how the Russians use compromise. That if Trump is part
of that process, this would be the way that it's done.
Speaker 7 (49:10):
And that means like Epstein or whomever is not calling
someone and saying, hey, if you don't do this, it'll
be this right, it's right.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
And it's more like, yeah, organized criminals befriend and talking.
So like, once you know that you bring someone into
complicity in some way or another, then you know there's
everybody sort of dirty, and everybody then doesn't know what
they have on you. You don't know what he has
on me, but you know there's dirt out there, and
so it's better to let the system play out than
(49:39):
to ever attack anyone because you don't know what they
have on you that could be used against you and
can be incredibly subtle. So like, once you've done things
that essentially you know are wrong, you don't want to
come out. You're now part of that system and you
want to maintain the system stability.
Speaker 7 (49:55):
You don't want to much suggest, you know how bad
lead a decent life and.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
Not it would be an easier way to do things,
but the desire for money and fame and girls and
those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
It's easy.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
But you can see Donald Trump does it almost instinctually.
I remember his head of DHS in his first term.
He contacted her and said that she had to go
publicly in front of to public, give a speech and
say something that he knew was a lie, she knew
was a lie and was wrong, or she was going
to be fired. And she did so. Now that you've
got a powerful person doing something illegal or at least
(50:32):
unethical for you, they're not. Yeah, they're corrupt, they're part
of the complicit, and you know you sort of have
them somewhat so you don't need to really threaten them.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
And to it straight pars on that has the US
population become part of this. So I wasn't paying attention
to the Epstein files, right, the Ebstinct scandal, conspiracy theories.
I didn't really pay attention. We were overseas, right well,
but the right was where this was. This was the Republicans.
We're going to get Bill Clinton, you know, let it
all out, and then you know, people like I not
(51:04):
supposed to you know, Charlie, some guy named Charlie right,
who's like, no, no, the Epstein files got to come out.
And then suddenly, like a few telephone calls are made,
it's like, yeah, no, the Epstein stuff's over. It's gone.
It's over with. And yet this is where I wonder
about the cult status of American political parties. It's like, yes,
Epstein is incredibly important, we need to get to the
(51:24):
bottom of it. And then within days, Epstein's over. We
were never interested, right, Not everybody's gone with that, but
but millions of people have been, and whole media outlets
have just basically overnight switched gears and people have buy
and large gone with it.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
I think this is one of those ones that still
has public traction.
Speaker 7 (51:42):
Well, I really want it out because I think that
you should suffer for being part of a terrible sex
trafficking ring of underage carls.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
That's a view I have, yah and shame should be
enough in our society. You don't need to be legally
charged and thrown in jail if you do something that's wrong, unethical,
and illegal, even if you haven't been charged.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
And I want to say a good word for Tom
Holman here I do. I mean the fact that he
accepted fifty thousand dollars according to the press, a US
takes pair of money in a peg. That doesn't mean
he's corrupt because he wasn't convinced, he wasn't affected exactly.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Yeah, it means he's totally clean. You're either clean or dirty.
There's no I want to say your Adam. Your article
is called a Theory of Trump compromont and it was
July twenty eighteen in New Yorker, so it's worth reading
to give a sense for this idea.
Speaker 7 (52:34):
And if I remember correctly, that was the article that
got everybody to be like, oh my goodness, we've been
heading down a bad path. And ever since then, America's
been it's been totally fine. Like that, you know, I
will say a lot of that reporting I did, and
then the Jeffrey Epstein thing. I'm still wrestling with how
I feel about the limits of journalism. Like it's it
(52:59):
really is a life altering experience, all right, fun talk.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Seipher,
and Jonathan Sterr.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
The associate producer is Rachel Harner.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable
pictures for iHeart Podcasts.
This episode of Mission Implausible, dealing with the Jeffrey Epstein scandal,
was recorded several weeks ago, so like a lot has
happened since then.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'shay.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers
in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around the.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
World, and part of our job was creating conspiracies to
deceive our adversaries.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the
conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Of you may not have heard. Could they be true
or are we being manipulated?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. Today's guest is
Tara Paul Marie. She's an American journalist. She's worked in
a variety of news organizations. She has a great sort
of YouTube podcast show that she does now very focused
on the on Epstein and the Maxwells. So, Tara, thank
you very much for joining us.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
So, my show, The Tara Paul Mary Show, is a
political podcast because I've long covered power and politics, but
I've also covered the Jeffrey Epstein story for a long
time as well, since his death, and I did some
investigative podcasts and magazine story and another number of other things,
and I stay in touch with the survivors and I've
just kept digging when a lot of people kind of.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Gave up on the story. So that's where we are
right now.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
But I do think it's the perfect story that intertwines
power and politics, which has always been my focal point,
my north star in my career, even when I was
based in Brussels covering the EU and brexitst and the
populist movements over there, and then when I was a
White House correspondent covering Trump for ABC News.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
No.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
I like to tangle with power. I try to figure
out what's going on there, and I'm always fascinated by
the personalities behind it and how it really works well.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
And since this podcast we try to talk about conspiracies
and conspiracy series. The Epstein thing plays on a variety
of levels with that thing. But one of the things
I've become interested in lately is if you look at
the Epstein history and what in the investigation, and then
he talks about quote unquote files and that type of thing,
this isn't just a US story, really, this is an
(02:06):
international story. It involves Maxwell's, it involves a lot of
other governments, and probably to include Russia and Israel and
a number of other places. But it's become like a
really core US political story, and that we almost think
that the Justice Department has all the answers on this,
and that it's up to Trump to let it go
or not let it come out. But don't a lot
(02:26):
of foreign governments have piece of this and understand what's
going on. And so if there's bad things in there
about powerful people, it's not just in the Justice Department.
It's held by others as well.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
It's probably very much held by mi I six, who
is tracking and xandrew around and his cavorting with various dignitaries.
I mean, if you have a royal who's out there
trying to do business deals with foreign dignitaries, I would
think you'd want to keep track on that. He obviously
has access to information, his mother, who saw who who
(02:58):
loved him the most really of all of them. You
know the fact that she's getting a briefing from the
Prime Minister every week. He has a certain status, and
I can't imagine that they weren't keeping track of him.
And we know that Jeffrey Epstein liked to brag about
spending time with African dictators Vladimir Putin. He liked to
(03:22):
show off the fact that he was friends with random
princes from countries that don't even have monarchies anymore, but
still have a certain status that gives them access to
the you know, upper echelon of wealth and finance in society.
And so those were the circles that he swam in,
and I think that gave him access to more valuable secrets.
I mean, who holds who hold you know this being spies,
(03:45):
former spies. There you go, who holds all the information
that you need most of the time.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So Epstein, for some people means, oh, you know the
list that was the client list, supposedly that was on
Pambondi's desk, that's what it is, or at something else.
And looking into this, the roots of this go back.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
To the Len Maxwell.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, but it goes back to her father. People don't
maybe not realize Americans may not realize who he is.
He was sort of the Rupert Murdoch this day. But
it actually goes back to like the nineteen fifties even
late forties, when he was in Berlin where apparently he
signed an agreement to work with the Russians with the Soviets,
and this thing balloons out. There's elements that are in France.
(04:26):
There's elements of espionage, there's elements of money. There are
mysteries involved, like where did Epstein get his money? How
did he? I mean, he wasn't qualified for any of
these positions that he got into, including his first teaching positions.
So there's all these mysteries. How would you describe the
entire Epstein drama.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
I think he's an international con man that various agencies
across the country found across the world, excuse me, found
to be useful because he offered them information on people
that he blackmailed or spent time with, and he used
sexual embarrassment at a way to get information or became
(05:09):
involved with them in ways that were criminal. But he
was the one who was willing to go to the
authorities first, like for example, in the Financial Towers ponzi scheme,
it was a three hundred million dollar scheme. This was
early on in his the largest ponzi scheme in the
world at the time with Stephen Hoffenberg. It's been reported
that he spoke to prosecutors at least three times. Now,
(05:32):
his partner in that scheme, Stephen Hoffenberg, spent the rest
of his life in prison, But Jeffrey Epstein did not.
You know, he was involved as an informant on a
I believe it was bear Stearn's case, but there was
another financial case that he was involved in. But this
was his network, and he's useful to all of these people. Also,
I thought something that was interesting that came up in
(05:53):
the the Lenn Maxwell tapes when she was interviewed by
Todd Blanche. Not that I take everything she says at
face value, but for a very long time she denied
the connection between her father. Excuse me, sorry, Robert Maxwell,
who I did an entire podcast away called Power the Maxwells.
You will enjoy it because it is very succession as
(06:13):
it's very Rupert Murdoch, as is going to help you
understand how influential of a figure he was at the time,
like she was the equivalent of Elizabeth Murdoch or or
or even more so, because she was a socialite hanging
out with the royals, and she was written about in
the newspapers as being this beautiful young socialite. So and
he was going to buy the New York Daily News.
He owned the Mirror in the UK. He would fight
(06:36):
for newspapers against Rupert Murdoch. He had MTV Europe, he
had Peregrine, so he'd even the McMillan and some of
the other top scientific publishing houses, so he had he
had a lot of influence through publishing. But it was
interesting because she admitted in this tape that actually her
father vouched for Jeffstein for a job in finance, when
(07:00):
clearly he was a college dropout known for being a
sex pest out of high school that he taught at
a Dalton And here's Robert Maxwell vouching for him. And
I'm like, well, how do they know each other? And
that's always been the question. There's always been a theory
that he introduced Glen to Jeffrey and then funneled money
(07:23):
to him off shore laundered money, knowing that either Masad
was going to get him because he was too compromised,
or he was going to have to kill himself because
he's squandered all the pensioners' money. He dies off the
side of his Yeah, yeah, Robert Maxwell. The lady Glen,
by the way, everyone around. These people die mysteriously, so
he dies off the side of his yacht. I similarly think,
(07:44):
and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but
I think he was probably too compromised because he had
stolen all this money from the pensioners, and Masad wanted
to get rid of him, and that's why he was
he died. These people, these men, they are not the
suicidal type. I was actually talking to Mark EPs last week,
and Mark Epstein is Jeffrey Epstein's brother, and we were saying,
I said, do you think that Jeffrey Epstein would kill himself?
(08:07):
Like you know him, he's your brother, and obviously he
wants he doesn't want it to be marked as a
suicide because he won't get the insurance money, right, and
he can prove foul play, can sue the government. Yeah, yeah,
there's more money in it for him if his son,
if his brother was killed. But I do think there
is something of the level of ego to like ego maniacs, narcissism,
that do not make them the type that killed themselves.
(08:28):
They think they can get out of everything. They treat
people terribly. You don't steal from pensioners and not think
you can't get out of it, so I think he
was killed. He funneled the money to Epstein, who got
it to Glenn Maxwell.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Now we don't have.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Any bank transfers, you don't have anything to prove that.
But how did Glenn Maxwell live in New York City
and when she got there only have one hundred thousand
dollars to her name. He's bankrupt and suddenly she's living,
you know, in a she's living in a multimillion dollar
apartment next to sid Jeffrey Epstein's, which is the Big
Guests townhouse on Upper Eastside. It just seems like, why
(09:02):
would he just take care of this woman who he
didn't even want to have sex with according to his tapes.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I would tell us a little bit more about Robert
Maxwell because I remember Maxwell his paper in Britain was
people believed it was actually funded by in Russian interests.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
Is that I think that there was certainly a feeling
that Robert Maxwell was not what he seemed. You know,
I didn't know that at the time that people thought
it was funded by Russia, and I didn't we didn't
hear that, but there was certainly a feeling that he
was not working for the UK government, although he ended
up being an MP at one point a member of Parliament.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
It's not amazing.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And Robert Maxwell, that's not his real name. He was
in Coslavakia, right, He was a check to who just
was able to get out in nineteen thirty nine before
the Nazis marched in. He did end up in British
intelligence in the OSS during the war, and then after
the war was posted in Berlin, where he maintained a
close real life relationship supposedly, it said, with the Soviets.
(10:03):
But then later he rose up and I'm not sure how,
but he became a great power inside of the UK,
a publisher and a newspaper baron. And then in the
end it turns out he stole basically all his pincherders' money,
had gone bankrupt, and died mysteriously on his falling off
his yacht. Now you mentioned Mosad, and I'm not really
(10:25):
not clear on if there's what or if the relationship
is between Maxwell and Mosad was during the fifties, sixties, seventies.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
He was buried in the Mount of Olives in Israel,
which is reserved.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
You're rich and he could do that, but you know,
but do you think so, oh, yeah, if you're rich enough.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Here's the thing I don't understand.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
It seems to me like all of these men are
sort of playing off a bunch of different intelligence agencies.
Did you ever see that often when you were working
in the region. I mean, it just seems like these
these men kind of are They're not your everyday asset.
They're powerful men, and they seem to be being able
to sort of work for all different agencies, and they
probably give them preferable like business terms, because you know,
(11:06):
it's almost like it's valuable.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
It's valuable for your business.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
It's valuable to the Russians that have people in other
countries that are sort of compromised with the Russians because
they can do even lots of stuff to benefit benefit
the Russians. And I remember, I think there was an
art clause reading recently where it said that one of
the British Foreign Office reports, like in the late fifties,
said that his program on press could be a front
for Soviet scientific espionage. But when you say intelligence agency
(11:31):
and stuff, it's hard for US because CIA was a
foreign intelligence organization. So like going after just rich people
who were sort of I don't know, had newspapers and
stuff wasn't part of the game, right, I mean, maybe
the Israelis for some purpose, certainly the Russians, right.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I mean, if if Robert Maxwell, who's an incredibly powerful
individual in the sixties and seventies in the UK, if
he wants to talk to Mosat to pass on some information,
I'm sure they'll listen. But there's a difference between that
and him being controlled by That sort of gets into
conspiracy theory. I think oftentimes rich people will try to
manipulate intelligence agencies with information, right, and then try to
(12:10):
get governments to do what they want. We've certainly seen that,
you know, in the run up to the in the
run up to the Iraq War, there were a number
of dissident Iraqis who work into members of the Republican
Party and to you know, elements of the US intelligence community,
mostly the military, who were you know, trying to get
them to invade. But so Maxwell dies, his daughter gets
together with Jeffrey, and money starts to flow. Now back
(12:33):
to Jeffrey Epstein. He's a college dropout, and yet he
still gets a job teaching at this high school, right,
this elite high school, Dalton Yep, he doesn't have any
teaching certificates, he doesn't have a college education. So how
does he get this job?
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Well, he's working for Bill Barr's father, as in the
former attorney general. The web of powerful people around him
is so it's so amazing. He owned a modeling agenc
he called mc squared and his partner, Jean lup Brenell,
mysteriously dies in a French prison hanging himself.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
This is this is epsteinc not Bar's father.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Yeah, exactly, And so it's just like everything around him
is just so mysterious. How are these people so interconnected?
He's got meetings with Bill Burns, who you guys know,
he was a former deputy Secretary of State. He met
with Jeffrey Epstein, he goes on to be CIA direct.
I mean he had really high level contacts and they
were willing to meet with him.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yeah, I mean yeah, rich people are all around each other.
And when you go back to like he had these
connections with agencies. You know, frankly, if you have that
kind of money and that kind of clout, it's relationships
with politicians that are much more valuable for you. So
if you go over the heads of agencies. If you're
friends with the Prime Minister and your friends with the president,
(13:51):
and your friends with people around, then you can get
things done because they tell agencies what to do, and
they actually the ones can move money and move things around.
You know, if you're in with the royal family in
England and you're in with the Prime Minister, and you're
in with the you know, Prime Minister of Israel and stuff,
you can you can move around as you wish.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
Yeah, I agree, but also sometimes it's like you need
the bureaucrats from time to time, and a Secretary of
State is a pretty powerful politician.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I would say, but what's he going to do for
I mean, he met him once. My guest would be
Bill Burns has met like one hundred and fifty thousand
senior people.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
But I don't know what.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
What we What does he want?
Speaker 5 (14:28):
Yeah, so this guy's a registered sex offender who procured
a mine of a prostitution. He's getting a seat with
the Deputary Secretary of State who goes on to BCIA director.
And here's the one thing I noticed from the emails
and all the reporting on his relationship with Jess Staley
so when he was at JP Morgan, he was Epstein's
banker even after this defender sex offense. And the thing
(14:49):
that was so interesting to me is that when things
weren't going well, Jess Staley and he had, you know,
set Jess Saley up with women snow white and beauty
and the beasts, and Jess salely admitted to having a
f with a woman who we met through Jeffrey Epstein,
and they had maintained this relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, and
that relationship with JP Morgan really sort of allowed him
to get back into re ingratiate himself into these upper classes.
(15:13):
So this was very valuable for him, and Jes vouched
for him, and so did a number of others at
the highest levels. But the point is that when Jess
Staley started to be started to see that he was
getting pushed out of the bank, Jeffrey Epstein helped him
land a job as CEO of Barclays Bank. Certainly connecting
and doing things for all these wealthy and powerful men.
They weren't just around him for just like, oh yeah,
(15:34):
Jeffrey Epstein's a laugh, What a great time that creepo is.
There was something in it for them.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And it's and it's partly him providing women at parties
and things or what's the what's the cakes.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
I think it was partially providing women. Money laundering. I
think it was trafficking. I think putting money off shore.
I do think a big part of it though, was
like once he knew that you did something that would
cause social embarrassment, he didn't have to say it to you,
but there was a known imploy Yeah, it's like just
like an implied knowing, and when he asked you to invest,
(16:14):
you did it. I mean we saw Mark Rowan, who
led it Apollo Hedge Fund, give Epstein hundreds of million dollars.
It's crazy for a state planning and tax purposes. Jeffrey
Epstein was in some like master estate planner. The reason
I keep going back to the banking industry is because
at least you can follow the money there, you know
(16:34):
what I'm saying. Where it's a little bit more difficult
when it comes to influence, because I think that's what
we're talking about right now, is influence and information.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Right so is for former agency officers. You know, we
would meet hundreds of people. If you're on a diplomatic tour,
you've meet hundreds of people, and you would play off that, oh,
I know so, and so when you call somebody knew
it was like, oh, we have someone in common and
name them like okay, have lunch. But then there's a
wit weaning process. So the fact that some Jeffrey Epstein
or a CIA officer meets somebody doesn't mean much if
(17:04):
it's one or two meetings. But we're also trying to
figure out is how their vulnerabilities here, how there is
this person useful to me? And there's a sort of
a weaning, weeding out process. And so for for Jeffrey Epstein,
I my sense is there's a large funnel on one
end where he's trying to meet everybody, and he's also
trying to figure out who is of use to him,
(17:26):
who's black mail bull, who was looking for women, who's
looking for you know, things that only he can provide.
And I don't think every person who met him is,
but I think, you know, those are the people he
focused on. So just for starters though, So he's fired
from this job, you know, at the high school, and
he ends up running the finances for this guy who
(17:48):
owns Victoria's Secret, Well.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Was less Wexter his first job. I don't think it was.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
I think he did the Ponzi scheme first, and then
he worked at bear Stearns. Then it's unclear how far
back the relationship was all and what he did for
Les Wesner, who was the founder of Victoria's Secret, he
wasn't actually working for the company.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
He was managing a personal.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, that's right, managing as wealth. And the same for Evercrabts.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
Yeah owned, Yeah, it's called l Brands and they own
bath and body works.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Basically, they own malls, everything you see in the mall.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Okay. One of the mestatries I'd like to dine into, though,
is is how his is his human trafficking. And one
of the mysteries for me is in the US, if
there were hundreds of women who were abused this way
taken to the island, it seems to me, at least
now a lot of them would be willing to come forward.
But my understanding is a lot of these women were
(18:43):
pulled out of like Eastern Europe and the Soviet you know,
former Soviet Union, Russia, which means that there would be
money involved, which means that there would be room for
Russian you know, Russian intelligence services in mafioso to get
involved in this. It would also be one reason why
one none of these women would come forward, because they're like, hey,
you know, we've got Natasha in Moscow and if you
(19:04):
like fuck with us, you know we'll have her talk. Right.
That gives them, the Russians control as well. So what
is your sense of now of like, what do we
understand about the human trafficking network that Jeffrey Epstein was
I think clearly involved in, because that would also involve money, transfers, travel,
there would be digital dust, right, You've got to write back,
(19:26):
it'd be somehow, emails back and forth, communication involved all
these things.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
Sometimes can't you do.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
This without yeah, without all these trails?
Speaker 5 (19:35):
Okay, So there were a number of girls that he
found from Eastern Europe, Asia, et cetera. We don't know
these girls like, they haven't come forward. In fact, it's
mostly the American girls. And if you notice it, and
by girls, I mean they're women. Now they're my age,
they mean I'm older. There's probably only about two dozen
of them that have come forward, I think, and the
(19:55):
FBI estimated a thousand which probably means there's even more righteoms.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
So a big part of that is fear.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Fear because of the men involved in these circles, fear.
Some of them just received NBA payouts. Some of them
are just afraid because they know what could happen to them,
or they don't want to deal with the stress, or
they don't want people to know, or they have fe
that shame. There's so many different reasons why. But in
particular when it comes to the girls that were foreign,
I think they used that modeling agency to traffic girls.
(20:26):
That was certainly a way to do that. They would
find them and recruit them to be models, and they
and some of these girls thought, oh wow, well you
mean your friends with the owner of Victoria's Secret. It's
my big break. And then here they are, and they
are they have their passports taken from them. They are
his sex slaves. They live in his house, and some
of them stayed with him for a long time, maybe
Stockholm syndromes trauma. I can only imagine what that's like now.
(20:50):
I also know from Virginia Juphre that that she would
be sent out to other countries like Thailand, and she
would said and he said, go find me twins in Thailand,
so she would go to Thailand. She went to Thailand
and that's actually when she escaped him and she met
her husband, married him instantly, just to get away from him.
Then moved to Australia to be as far away from
(21:10):
Epstein as she could possibly be after years and years
of sexual abuse from very high ranking people in government.
You know, she accused Ehud Barak of raping her. She
accused George Mitchell, a senator from Maine. She accused Bill Richardson,
She accused a number of others, and.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
You know, this is.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
This This was the kind of set that she was around,
and so she felt that the safest place for her
to be would be in Australia. She finally comes forward
about her story about Prince Andrew in twenty ten, and
then about a decade later, the Crown actually two decades later,
to be frank, they come forward and they pay her
a historic settlement. But that's all to say. It was
(21:58):
an international scheme. You can see from flight logs they're
constantly moving around. But then they also had their their
micro i'd call it micro but pyramid scheme that they
ran through. This Palm Beach High School where they told
the girls, if you bring another girl, you get three
hundred dollars. And I don't think that they I think
they were actually pretty smart about it, and they very
(22:19):
rarely brought to many of the high school girls over
to And by smart, I mean they tried to minimize
some risk and they used more of the foreign girls
when they were moving them abroad. Although Virginia, you can
see the flight logs, was traveling all over the world
with them. You were saying about foreigners, I think born women,
and I think that was through the modeling promises, because
(22:40):
that's the kind of for that's that was a common
thing and seemed plausible, and especially for some of these
women that are coming from Eastern Europe and Russia or.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Some of these justment circumstances.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
Yeah, yeah, why does Glaine Why is Glene Maxwell.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Get so involved? But little I've looked at it looks
like she actually did some of this stuff before she
even met Epstein, like for related to her father and
some of his activities.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And maybe really I never heard that.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Actually, I will send you an article that I've just
read about that. It doesn't mean it's true, but like.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, there were reports of her bringing posh but not
particularly smart women over to the house, and people were
commenting on this. And of course her father is old,
really fabulously wealthy, and he can make your career or not.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I did not know this, that she was trafficking for
her father.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
There's an allegations of it.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yes, you know, that might make sense.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
I always thought they had a twisted relationship based on
my reporting and how he would. He was actually pretty
abusive to her the way that he speak to her,
But he also had this weird relationship with her where
they were meow at each other and I know it's
very weird. And he praised her for her beauty, but
he said, you know, she's my favorite.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
She looks the most like me.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
And we've been doing this for twenty minutes and we
still haven't mentioned Trump yet, right, we're still story.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Yeah, well I'm about to mention him and you go,
and then Adam.
Speaker 7 (24:23):
Just yeah, you guys know that and I are dear
friends and worked very closely together.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
She's been talking shit about you.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Oh really, yeah, I said that.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
I was like, I was brought into this story, this
wild story through Adam Davidson and we will live.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I hope to get down to the bottom of it,
but I don't know if we ever will.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
But yeah, Robert Maxwell did Glenn much like Trump treats Avanka,
where he sees her as an accessory. He liked to
bring her to parties. He felt like she would take
the place of the wife. And actually, you know, Glenn
met Trump through her father. He tried to She tried
to sell Donald Trump gifts, these gifts and they would
(25:03):
go to parties on the Hudson and their relationship goes
back because he was the owner of the Daily News
and they all go way way back.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
We have our colleague Adam Davidson here with us, so Adams,
we talk about Epstein stuff. This is really hard for
us because we talk about conspiracy theories. This thing is
so crazy and there's so many people. You could just
list all of the people and the places and the names,
and it sounds like you're trying to create a conspiracy
because it's like this person knows that person, this person
worked here, and this has money and the money Jim
here and the girl. But like a lot of that's true,
(25:35):
so like and a lot of it is out there no,
So why is this not actually all pulled together so
that for people who want to know?
Speaker 4 (25:41):
So, Hi, Tara.
Speaker 7 (25:42):
Tara and I work together on this story for a
very intense year or more, and I think we both
went through a lot. It's a dark one. I first
heard about Jeffrey Epstein on the set of The Big Short,
just to name drop, like I was advising Adam McKay,
the writer director, and like, in between takes he had
(26:05):
just somehow learned. I was on set as like the
journalist expert to talk about finance, and I like condescendingly said, no,
none of what you're saying is possible, because if that
were true, everyone would know about it and it would
be like all those people would be in jail. It
can't be sure enough. It was the rare case where
(26:28):
it completely batshit conspiracy theory turned out to be completely true.
I mean, this is Tara, you and I. This is
what is so difficult for us emotionally, is like there
are things we feel like we know that we can't
even say because of legal reasons or because we were
told it by people who you know, victims who asked
us to keep it secret. It is even worse worse,
(26:52):
it is even more people. And what's amazing is it
really implicates it's not just an in place, many of
the most respected people, most powerful people in the world,
institutions Harvard. It made me think, like, if you're gonna
do a conspiracy, you should make it as big as
possible and touch as many people as possible because it's harder.
(27:14):
You know, if it was like fifteen bank managers in Joplin, Missouri,
like maybe you could bring it down.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Could you take us through a bite sized piece of
this alex Acosta, right, he gives a sweetheart deal to Epstein,
you know, maybe getting Trump off the hook and other people,
and then later maybe he's named secretary of late you know,
how does this he ends up on the cannet.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Yeah, I mean I have to agree with Adam on
that it does feel like everybody it's like this secret
that's just tying them all together. It's the kind of
consensual secret. And if they let the House of Domino's
fall or the House of Cards fall, then they all
go down together, so they have to stick keep it up.
I don't know if there is a direct line between
(27:56):
alex Acosta and this deal and become the Secretary of Labor.
But I have to say that, you know, he dealt
with a lot of very prominent Republicans at the time
to deal with it. Ken Starr, who has a lot
of influence in the party, J Leftkwitz now Alan Derschowitz,
who has a lot of prominence in the Republican Party.
Bill Barr at the time was I think a deputy
(28:18):
Attorney General under Bush. This this case went all the
way up to Gonzalez, who was AG at the time Bush.
So I you know, to deal with that kind of
sensitive type of case, he's getting. This type of exposure
probably puts him on like federalists lists that maybe he
wasn't at at the time. Maybe it helps him with
his buddies in Washington and Tyre.
Speaker 7 (28:36):
One thing that I find like, so head Messing is
like on this show most conspiracies, it's like you just dismissed,
Like come on, Like, it's not like alex Acosta signed
a secret deal. But with this, the things we know
happened are the same kinds of things as alex Acosta
became labor secretary because he protected bad people. We don't
(28:58):
know if that's true, right, We don't have a that
that's true, and that.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Might be know what was in the files. He would
know like who was implicated, and it's like oh yeah,
And so later it's like, I want to keep him,
you know, keep him sweet. So I'm not claiming that
there was a like a written conspiracy. You're being a
little bit of a conspiracy animate But.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
That's Mill bargaining back in a big way. Maybe he
was like, hey, I know it's going in the Epstein files.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Make me your age.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
So if you have a big conspiracy, it's very easy
to know hang conspiracies off of it. And so the
one that seems to be the one that's we're focused
on now is Trump.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Trump tied to it.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
They were best friends he introduced to his wife. From
your experience, Adam and Tara, do you think Trump is
a central player in the ugliness of this or he's
just another one of these big shots that made his
way through the process.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I think it's central to all of it.
Speaker 5 (29:50):
I think it's partially why this story has come back
in such a way because in someone's like make it
go away.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
You're wondering why why, why, why why?
Speaker 5 (29:59):
And the more evidence comes out, it's like, whoa these
guys were as close as we believed they were. They
were very good friends, they liked The thing that bonded
them was their love of women.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Hmmm.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
He's on the jet a bunch of times, he's in
the book of bazillion times, he's writing cards about their
secret trysts.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
What more is there?
Speaker 5 (30:21):
They have a common front in Paolo's on Poli, who
allegedly introduced Trump to Malania.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
It's just like there, you and I had.
Speaker 7 (30:28):
A very weird and fun afternoon with if you remember Tara, Yeah,
just an interview. So on the list of things that
are upsetting about this story, so what one thing is.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Like?
Speaker 7 (30:44):
I think Epstein stood out as unusually voracious, unusually calculating,
but I think a lot. I mean, we talked to
models who said, like that was that whole scene of
like sixteen year old girls rich guys. There was a
bunch of locations in Europe, in the Caribbean, in New
(31:04):
York and Palm Beach and older rich men having sex
with teenage girls was I don't know how to say
it other than it was widely accepted as not a
weird thing. I mean, we heard so many stories. I
think you see it getting more unusual and certainly by
the early two thousands, there's no question. I mean, he
(31:27):
himself says it. Trump was central to that party scene,
certainly in the New York part of it and in
the Florida part of it. I think that if you
were around those parties in the early nineties the mid
nineties and someone said, hey, who's like central to this,
I do think you would have said Donald Trump, like
he was a key figure. It's not just he's the
(31:47):
president now, so we're picking him out. Although the way
I look at it for all the people who spent
time with Epstein more than just a really casual moment
is if they didn't have sex with young girls, it
wasn't because they it was available to them, and they
knew it was available to them. So the best you
can say for anybody who spent serious time with him
(32:07):
is they were in a setting where other men were
clearly having sex with young girls and they didn't do
anything about it.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
But also Jeffrey kind of pushed them on. Did he
pushed the girls on them? He wanted you to do
it because he knew that they may be underage or
it might be illegal, And that was the bachanall kind
of environment that you got. And I think that in
some ways he groomed the elites around him, and so
did Glenn Maxwell why she was so central to all
this into thinking like this is totally normal and nothing's
(32:35):
going to happen. It's a great time. Just come by
Jeffrey Epstein's We're a good time. It's like the frat house.
It's fun, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Then there's the twist that he would try to use this,
and that's you know, because obviously, if you're doing this,
you know you're either just a sexual psychopath or you're
trying to do it for a reason. And if I recalled,
this wasn't Bill Gates along one time, and then he
tried and Bill Gates was cheating on his wife, and
Epstein then tried to use that is extortion against Ogates,
and Bill get came out publicly and then got divorced.
Speaker 7 (33:01):
In all well, his wife says that it was a
relationship and it was what he was doing with Epstein
that led to the divorce. I had two things I
wanted to ask, So one is, just have you talked
about intelligence? Because I feel like when I was working
with Tara, I didn't know any spooks and now I
know to CIA former case officers, and I feel like
(33:23):
one thing you have convinced me of is the idea
that Jeffrey Epstein is an intelligence, that he is himself
an officer of either the Massade or the CIA is
very unlikely. It's unlikely he's a run asset where everything
he did was driven, right. Can you talk about that,
because that is a very persistent rumor. I mean, he
might be a guy who talks to intelligence people, right,
(33:45):
I mean there's lots of those people. I mean I
might be one of those people.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Right. If he's running in these circles, it wouldn't be
unusual for him to, like, you know, be someone who
talks to intelligence from time to passes on tip or
things like that. But when people think of like an asset,
they think of like control, Like we control him, he
does what we say. And someone who's you know, if
(34:11):
you're a billionaire and you're running in those circles, you
know there's there's not going to be control over you.
I don't see what the motivation would be, what the
what the hold would be. This is a sociopath who
was out for himself.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
So Jerry's right, in our parlance, there's different levels of
people who are in you could say, are in touch
with an intelligent sagancy. So if someone's important and his
friends with Clinton and Bush and Trump and talks to
prime ministers, and this goes to Israel and Russia and
he talks to a senior politician and one of the
senior politicians says, you know, you should talk to the CIA,
or CIA tells the CIA guys, you talked to him,
(34:45):
He's got all this stuff. Yeah, there will be someone
will meet him, probably more likely an analyst than you know,
someone in clandestine service. Listen to what he has, just
you know, a contact. It's completely there's no control. There's
no to try to suborn that person or ask them
to sign secrecy agreements or anything like that. That's very
(35:05):
separate from the kind of people Jerry and I try
to meet as we're looking for access to secrets. We're
trying to find people who have access to government can't
get any other way. And then, like Jerry says, control,
that's our term for they understand that they're actually operating
secretly working for US in the CIA, and they're keeping
that secret from their government or other and they have
to and to do that. They have to keep themselves
(35:27):
safe and they have to follow our rules, and so
that's a controlled asset. This person doesn't fit that. In
the slightest. It's certainly possible that Epstein, who's in all
these circles, talk to somebody in the CIA, but that
doesn't mean that the CIA would then do to go
over there and talk to that person and tell me
what he said, we're not doing all. So, Russia has
a wider spectrum of what they consider use of people.
(35:50):
So if there's people who are useful to them just
because they say things that are in benefit to Russia,
they will maintain contact with them and try to subtly
given information into them so they'll use it. You've heard
people talk about that term useful idiots and all, and
so their view is different from ours. So the way
Jerry and I move up through the system and get
(36:10):
promoted is by recruiting controlled sources who provide us unique information.
If I meet someone and then interesting, but it's just
a you know, the person walked in it came into
the CIA, got a badge to come in as a visitor,
tell us something, and left as an American Like that
doesn't of no value to me professionally, like there's a
(36:31):
piece of information that gets into our system, great, but
that doesn't mean we say that we give that any
extra weight over anything else that's in there.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
The dog whistle. There is that CIA or mostly most
side of the conspiracy theories. I heard it's the you know,
it's the great Jewish conspiracy. That exactly, Yeah, it's the
mode and the Jews are running this international sex ring.
I mean, that's what they're implying, as opposed to he
talked to a Mosaide officer and gave tips or did
(36:59):
them a favor. I think there's a huge difference between
that and what's being implied when they say he's you know,
he works for most as if that explains it. So
I just want to go back to alex to cost
again because I wasn't quite satisfied with yeah with you, Adam,
So maybe I got the facts wrong. But when I
look at this, Epstein was up on dozens of charges
(37:23):
with with like dozens of high level people, likely including
Donald Trump as they're looking into this right who they
were good friends at the time, and what the charges
they were looking at was basically raping a fourteen year
old girl. Right, this is the charges he was looking at.
And for reasons that have never been explained that I
don't understand, alex Acosta cut him a deal where it
(37:45):
was basically soliciting a prostitute. And then he got to
like still able to fly around on his jet, he
could live at home, he only had to show up
to jail on weekends. He didn't even do that. But
what he did have is he had reams of people
who were involved in his network. Right, it wasn't just
Jeffrey Epstein, it was Epstein and lots of other people
(38:08):
who were around him, influential people. Yeah, three administrations later,
alex Acosta still knows what the charges are. He knows
what's in the files. He's read them, he collected them, right.
And so it seems to me not that he would
like write Donald Trump and say I'm going to talk
unless you give you a cabinet. But he doesn't even
(38:28):
need to say that, right, and not just Donald Trump,
because right now he's a big wigan like Newsmax. Right,
he's been given the sinecure where he basically does nothing
and they pay him a lot of money.
Speaker 7 (38:39):
You know, there's there's normal like just how America works
kind of scuzziness. And I do think the two thousand
and six to two thousand and eight like miscarriage of
justice where this guy the cops felt like they knew
that he had dozens hundreds of you know what I
would call rapes.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
I mean, I think they are rapes.
Speaker 7 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah, And this was ongoing. There was crossing state lines,
there was airplanes, like, there was all the things that
either a local or federal prosecution should work. What he
ended up getting convicted of is one count of prostitution,
which several people have told me, can you even call
like a fourteen year old prostitute?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Like is that?
Speaker 7 (39:17):
What does that mean? Like that is child rape?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Whatever?
Speaker 7 (39:19):
Like whether you pay for it or not.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
And he didn't.
Speaker 7 (39:22):
But not only did he get this really short sentence,
he was allowed to leave during the day on a
work study thing, and he created this office for himself.
And we have pretty good reason to think he was
having sex with underage girls while he was serving his sentence.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
But he kept his mouth shut. He didn't talk. I mean,
he didn't roll on any of the people in his network,
who were all big donors, who were senior people, arguably
Donald Trump right, arguably other people because it wasn't we're
describing this as though that back then, as though it
was just Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 7 (39:57):
No, No, it was it was.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yes, it seems to me Jeffreys at that time he
(40:33):
had two choices. He could roll on all the other
guys and try to get a lighter sentence, or he
could go to the other guys and say put pressure
on the prosecutor.
Speaker 7 (40:41):
What I'm trying to get at is was this normal
crappy behavior? Like was this just the normal, like you know,
sadly just unsurprising fact that really rich people live in
a different legal system than poor people, and or was
this something it is explained by just a rich guy
hiring big lawyers and throwing their light around. I do
think that explains a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
But the situation is different now about legal stuff. But
is this something that could be reopened? Because is this
something that could be dug into I think people.
Speaker 7 (41:11):
But I don't know if the legal system has a
method of I mean, I guess I'm genuinely asking, does
it of like if someone's dead there's no active case,
like what I mean, Congress could theoretically and you know,
like on the list of like maddening things about the
alex Acosta deal is Glaine Maxwell and then two other
major co conspirators were given this like we promised never
(41:34):
to prosecute you agreement. And that's actually what one of
the ways Glaine's trying to get the Supreme Court to
throw out her conviction. That really, I mean legal scholars
told is that's weird. Like nobody like they didn't give
any information. This wasn't immunity in exchange for you know,
normally you go to the bottom people to get the
top people. You don't give you don't just give the
(41:56):
top people and their cronies blanket immune. So that is very,
very weird, I would say, looking into Alexicosta, this wasn't
a man with a lot of backbone. He wasn't like
a highly experienced at turn. You know, if you remember
this is after all those it almost seems sweet at
this point. But when Bush fired or Alberta. Gonzalez fired
(42:18):
all those prosecutors for not being sufficiently loyal to George W.
Bush and brought in a bunch of more mediocre, you know,
sycophantic lawyers, and alex Aicosta was one of them. So
we never do that again. We'll never do that. Obviously,
we learned our lessons. But part of what's maddening is
what we do know. Like I'm still nervous to say
all the names that I feel fairly confident we're complicit,
(42:42):
but you know the names, like you know what the
names are a lot of them start with B and
the name Bill and and like we can go to
the edge cases or the like cases we don't know
for sure, and that's worth doing, but there's lots of
cases we basically know and and those people are not
facing anything.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
But it's right because we worked in a secret verization
and our job was to protect sources and secrets forever.
Like so to Jerry and I, we could still be
prosecuted if on this podcast we say something that's.
Speaker 7 (43:14):
Class Ye give me something.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
If we were to out you as our asset, Adam,
you know you.
Speaker 7 (43:18):
Could see No, no, yeah, we don't.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
But the President, I says, can say those things now
are are unclassified. And they did that with all the
Kennedy se right, so there's there was real secrets that
are still being held.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
But the j F.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Kennedy assassination not tied to who killed them, and stuff,
But the president said, nope, that's all free game. Anybody
can have it. Now can can a president or anybody
in the legal system say, now, that's all free to
be seen.
Speaker 7 (43:41):
Because well, I think a president can declassify anything, right, but.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
This isn't classified information for most parts getting held by
the justice the Justice Department. I mean, you could redact
the victims' names and release it all, right, I think so, Well,
there would be a lot of suing. So let's say,
you know, mister X meets Epstein once, or somebody says
to a prosecutor early in the case, oh so, and
so was it Epstein's You know, John Seifer was at
(44:06):
Epstein's party. Well, you know, twenty years later that comes out,
that's in the Epstein file. So that somebody said you
were at a party, you know, as part of the investigation.
You know, you don't want your name even if you
didn't do anything wrong. And then and then there's what's
right and wrong is right and wrong in legal and illegal.
So if someone let's just pretend a good what of
Epstein's best friends, What if there's photographs of him in
(44:28):
a three way with Jeffrey Epstein with a nineteen year
old girl. That's not illegal, but that's like pretty fucking disgusting.
So so you know, the Justice Department can't prosecute you
for that. It's just that gets into politics and araunity. Right,
do you release it or don't you?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (44:44):
I mean I would like you know, I'm a journalist.
I would like it all released. I think we as
a nation, indeed, this case really broke me in a
lot of ways as as a journalist like it. I
think I had a really naive belief that the truth
gets out eventually, that powerful people can try and prevent
(45:05):
the truth from coming out, but once it comes out,
they're screwed. And I think we now live in a
world where, like God, it's just kind of known, right,
like we basically if you want to pay attention, I mean,
it's enough is out there and it doesn't have much
of an impact, and everyone seems like, you know, I
(45:26):
see people on like fari Zakaria or whatever, who in
my view, shouldn't be part of at a minimum, shouldn't
be part of polite society, Like we shouldn't be engaging
them or you know, I sort of thought like courts
should have a presumption of innocence. But I don't know
that society needs a presumption of innocence. Like in my view,
if you spent like there are people, big names who
(45:47):
we have on the flight records, they were on a
plane with jevery Epstein and underage women. So if you
went to a friend's house or rode on a friend's
plane and they were hanging out with a fifteen year
old and it wasn't there, and there wasn't their niece,
and let's say that's all that happened, nothing else happened,
that's still really gross. Like if you've been say a
(46:10):
president or a head of a university or a Nobel
Prize winning scientist, like that's not cool and that's not
like some theory that we know that. So I don't
know it's I find.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
The death of shade. But let me ask you another
mystery that I flee will solve and will it make
a difference. So Todd Blanche was Trump's personal lawyer, poof
you know, a little dustonomy, he's now number two with DOJ,
number two with DOJ, Like I really, I imagine a
really friggin busy guy has nothing better to do but
(46:42):
get at an airplane and see Glene Maxwell for two days, right,
and to sit with her and her lawyer who he's
personal friends with, and then all of a sudden she
goes to Club fed. She goes on to which is
which is my understanding from reading the media, is not legal.
Someone he had to sign a waiver or exemption. Somebody
(47:04):
signed something. There had to be paperwork to get her
to put her into this, into this camp. I'd like
to know who that was, Yeah, and why they Why
is it you know that she she gets it. You know,
somebody's protecting a child sex trafficker. Dallanne Maxwell. She's been
put into a nice the nicest prison possible. But you
know what it's like that we've who signed that thing.
(47:26):
The prisons just keep put them out shut.
Speaker 7 (47:28):
And that's what's fascinating that we like there. I used
to I remember an economist talking about, like in the West,
generally corruption as an aberration and people hide it. In
most former Soviet Union nations in the Middle East, et cetera,
corruption is it's not even hidden like you you know,
like an Azerbaijan, you can you know, you can go
(47:49):
to the houses of the ministers who only ever worked
in government office and they have these massive mansions and
and it's it almost like can it be called corruption
because corruption seems to imply there's a nice corrupt system
that is then you know, corrupted. But if that is
the system and this one and we've had, you know, like,
let's not pretend America has never had corruption. I just
(48:10):
read the Ulysses S. Grant biography, and even though it
makes a strong case that Grant himself was not corrupt,
his administration was wildly corrupt. But this is just such
a crystal clear case of Okay, we're not like nobody's
it's just out in the open, like we know what's
going on.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
We know in the fact that Trump won't say definitively
I will not pardon her, right, He's like, yeah, let
me think about it, which is but for all.
Speaker 7 (48:37):
No, John, my understanding is the way you use compromont
is you don't call up and say, hey, John, you
did these things.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Here's a video.
Speaker 7 (48:44):
You say, hey, you had a really fun time in
that weekend in Miami that was really wild. Hey, by
the way, I got this friend of mine who was
trying to do some business.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
I'd love it if you would talk to him.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
What you're doing is you're fishing for a compliment on
your article in the New York Yes, which I said,
which I've said, is an excellent I think description of
how the Russians use compromise. That if Trump is part
of that process, this would be the way that it's done.
Speaker 7 (49:10):
And that means like Epstein or whomever is not calling
someone and saying, hey, if you don't do this, it'll
be this right, it's right.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
And it's more like, yeah, organized criminals befriend and talking.
So like, once you know that you bring someone into
complicity in some way or another, then you know there's
everybody sort of dirty, and everybody then doesn't know what
they have on you. You don't know what he has
on me, but you know there's dirt out there, and
so it's better to let the system play out than
(49:39):
to ever attack anyone because you don't know what they
have on you that could be used against you and
can be incredibly subtle. So like, once you've done things
that essentially you know are wrong, you don't want to
come out. You're now part of that system and you
want to maintain the system stability.
Speaker 7 (49:55):
You don't want to much suggest, you know how bad
lead a decent life and.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
Not it would be an easier way to do things,
but the desire for money and fame and girls and
those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
It's easy.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
But you can see Donald Trump does it almost instinctually.
I remember his head of DHS in his first term.
He contacted her and said that she had to go
publicly in front of to public, give a speech and
say something that he knew was a lie, she knew
was a lie and was wrong, or she was going
to be fired. And she did so. Now that you've
got a powerful person doing something illegal or at least
(50:32):
unethical for you, they're not. Yeah, they're corrupt, they're part
of the complicit, and you know you sort of have
them somewhat so you don't need to really threaten them.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
And to it straight pars on that has the US
population become part of this. So I wasn't paying attention
to the Epstein files, right, the Ebstinct scandal, conspiracy theories.
I didn't really pay attention. We were overseas, right well,
but the right was where this was. This was the Republicans.
We're going to get Bill Clinton, you know, let it
all out, and then you know, people like I not
(51:04):
supposed to you know, Charlie, some guy named Charlie right,
who's like, no, no, the Epstein files got to come out.
And then suddenly, like a few telephone calls are made,
it's like, yeah, no, the Epstein stuff's over. It's gone.
It's over with. And yet this is where I wonder
about the cult status of American political parties. It's like, yes,
Epstein is incredibly important, we need to get to the
(51:24):
bottom of it. And then within days, Epstein's over. We
were never interested, right, Not everybody's gone with that, but
but millions of people have been, and whole media outlets
have just basically overnight switched gears and people have buy
and large gone with it.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
I think this is one of those ones that still
has public traction.
Speaker 7 (51:42):
Well, I really want it out because I think that
you should suffer for being part of a terrible sex
trafficking ring of underage carls.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
That's a view I have, yah and shame should be
enough in our society. You don't need to be legally
charged and thrown in jail if you do something that's wrong, unethical,
and illegal, even if you haven't been charged.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
And I want to say a good word for Tom
Holman here I do. I mean the fact that he
accepted fifty thousand dollars according to the press, a US
takes pair of money in a peg. That doesn't mean
he's corrupt because he wasn't convinced, he wasn't affected exactly.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Yeah, it means he's totally clean. You're either clean or dirty.
There's no I want to say your Adam. Your article
is called a Theory of Trump compromont and it was
July twenty eighteen in New Yorker, so it's worth reading
to give a sense for this idea.
Speaker 7 (52:34):
And if I remember correctly, that was the article that
got everybody to be like, oh my goodness, we've been
heading down a bad path. And ever since then, America's
been it's been totally fine. Like that, you know, I
will say a lot of that reporting I did, and
then the Jeffrey Epstein thing. I'm still wrestling with how
I feel about the limits of journalism. Like it's it
(52:59):
really is a life altering experience, all right, fun talk.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Seipher,
and Jonathan Sterr.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
The associate producer is Rachel Harner.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable
pictures for iHeart Podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Adam Davidson
John Sipher
Jerry O'Shea
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