January 26, 2025 • 38 mins
In our first live (sort of) episode, a former investigator for the Chicago District Attorney shares a connected story about Jack Ruby that has never been heard before. John & Jerry & Jon and their guest review the prevailing theories in the first of our occassional search for a conclusion to the biggest conspiracy theory of all time.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'sha. I was a
CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts
in Europe, Russia, and in Asia.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East
and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive
our adversaries.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy
theories large and small.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Could they be true?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Or are we being manipulated?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
This is mission implausible?
Speaker 4 (00:30):
All right, guys, I think we've now worked together long
enough that we can get to the issue that is
the one I most wanted.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
To talk to you about, the great white whale.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
When people say CIA and conspiracy theories, it's actually kind
of weird. We haven't done the big one. Where did
Peanut Eminem? No, that's not it. I love Eminem's are
good pratsol Eminem's I enjoyed, but I'm against them morally. No,
we're talking about did you guys kill JFK?
Speaker 5 (00:59):
Well?
Speaker 6 (00:59):
I actually I think the jfk assassination thing is far
bigger than just did the CIA did it? Because there's
views that it could have been the Cuba, as it
could have been the Russians. It could have been the mafia.
Fux Clay, it could have been the mafia. Like it
is like the mother of all conspiracy theories.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
So in CIA, are there people who show up as
new employees and they're like, where are the files?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Like?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
How is it talked about within CIA?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
That's a good question.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I mostly people joke about it, don't they.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah, oh, I found we're.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Very focused on collecting foreign intelligence.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Now and not looking at past successes.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
You know, we're too screwed up to be able to
keep a secret like that for that long.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
All right, so today and we should tell our listeners
we're going to revisit I mean, to be honest, we
could do every episode about the JFK assassination and probably
have more listeners, to be honest with you, not the
same listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
So what's interesting to me is the JFK assassination theories.
It's very American. I mean, Richard hoff Staider famously wrote
The Paranoid dial in American Politics, and that talks about
how we've always loved these kind of conspiracy theories because
our country was built on a distrust of elites is
built into the system.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
And in other countries in the world, though they just
do kill people. They do kill people.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Well, this episode is cool because we've never done this before.
But we've all got together in the same room over
at John Stearn's house in LA and we had a
special guest. So, John Stern, why don't you tell us
who our special guest is.
Speaker 7 (02:28):
You're about to audibly meet my uncle David Rubin. Let's
cut to the live recording in front of a studio
audience of four members of my family and three dogs.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
Now and Jerry drank all of John's booze. That's that's
what I remember about that event. Well, this week's episode
of Mission and Plasmo is a little bit different. We
are in person for the first time. Jerry and I
are in Los Angeles at the home of our producer,
John Stern, and he's bringing a special guest to us
to talk to today. And we have a little bit
(03:00):
of an audience, and we're drinking John's booze, and so
it may take us a little longer to get to
the to get to where we're going, but bear with us.
Speaker 7 (03:10):
You gotta talk a lot about the JFK assassination. What
is your particular fascination and insight to this. I mean,
you're more than just casual jfk assassination observers.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Right well, I have still had I have green stains
on my knee from the Grassy.
Speaker 7 (03:25):
Knoll, but it's just in an area that you're particularly
interested in talking about, is that right?
Speaker 5 (03:32):
Well?
Speaker 8 (03:33):
I think people who listen to the podcasts will understand
we are tend to be skeptical of conspiracy theories, and
jfk assassination theory is one of the great conspiracy theories
of all times, and so we tend to be nervous
about digging down too deeply in.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
The rabbit hole.
Speaker 8 (03:46):
But there is a, you know, an important CIA connection.
One of the early defectors to the CIA you're in, Nsenko,
came to the United States and told the story of
being the person who handled the files for the Harvey
Oswald when he was in Moscow. And of course at
the time there was a concern when Kennedy was shot,
were the Russians involved? Where the Russians involved with the Cubans.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
All the conspiracy theories, they can't all be right because
a lot of them conflict, but they can all be wrong.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
So I should introduce who David Rubin is. He's currently
a private investigator, but this is at the beginning of
his career. David, could you back us up and just
tell us the different jobs you've had.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Or I started in law enforcement in Chicago for the
Special Prosecutions Unit of the State's Attorney's Office. It was
a brand new unit by a brand new State's Attorney,
Bernard Carey, following a big scandal of a black panther
shooting with the old regime. Then I got hired by
San Francisco to start a special investigations unit again. Then
(04:48):
I got hired by Oakland, City of Oakland to form
the first police Review Board. Then I left there and
became a private consultant and private investigator.
Speaker 7 (04:57):
The story we're about to hear, i've met I ever
heard it from any other source.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
I've never read it, and I don't think.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's the answer.
Speaker 7 (05:04):
I think if it's true, it's a piece of the
puzzle that might spurse some questions. And you said you
started as a newbie in Chicago, and as a newbe
you and your partner had to do the job of
going to Joliet State Prison once a month.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Is that right? When you work, especially in a new
investigative unit in a local jurisdiction, you get a lot
of letters from inmates. Cook County Jail was one of
our big sources. Of course, Juliet State Penitentiary was another
big source. And if everybody in state prison or federal
penitentiaries are innocent, if you ask them, and they all
(05:41):
provide very detailed letters to tell you why they're innocent,
so that they could be given forgiveness. What they have
a committee didn't do that they didn't do because they're
all indicent. And as a new investigator, one of my
early assignments was, I got all those letters and I
we've going to Joe when letters have come in from
(06:01):
inmates saying we got a bunch of crimes that could
solve for you if you could get us out of here.
Of course, and of course ninety nine point nine percent
of these things were nonsense and we're just feeble attempts
by inmates to try and swing a deal. Every once
in a while, I get a little tidbit I might
help you with some kind of crime, So you went
(06:22):
along with it, and I'd get a stack on my
desk of letters, and my partner and I would do
the interviews with the inmates to see what they had.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
How do they choose who gets these things? And is
there squabbles between organizations?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Ever back in the day, there were always squabbles the
federal agencies and the local agencies. I'm hoping that has
ceased to be beautiful. They still they still squabble. Okay, gee, gentlemen,
I shocked to hear that. I mean literally, you would
investigate the same case. And I mean I remember one
(06:56):
particular case where literally guns were drawn by the federal
agents and local and coming around the corner, there's the
same building under the same investigation. It was lucky nothing disaster,
which occur. So there's one letter. So a letter comes in. Correct,
a letter comes in and an inmate states that he
has information about the Kennedy assassination. So this is nineteen
(07:17):
seventy four, so nine or ten years after the assassination.
So kind of interesting to read something like that. It
beats the local I'm minisova a couple of robberies around
the corner. Letters. So I go and interview this particular
in it and he gets a story that he had
had a cell mat that was involved in friends with
(07:42):
the Jack Ruby connection. And Ruby was from Chicago. He
was a local club owner, a fringe mobster. Actually was
friends with Gene Connon. So Jack Ruby and I'm just
his real name was Rubinstein, Yes, Rubinstein, exactly. You go.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
So Jack Ruby was a owned a couple of sort
of bars, strip clubs in Dallas, sort of one of
these people that was on the fringe of society. And
he was somebody.
Speaker 8 (08:08):
It was either day after the second day after when
the police were moving Lee Harvey Oswald to a new facility,
to a new jail. They moved him through an area
where there's a lot of national news cameras and and
Jack Ruby essentially just came out of the crowd with
a gun and shot them in the stomach and killed him.
And it was the first time there's ever been a
murder on national television.
Speaker 7 (08:28):
In the long run, what ended upapping Jack Ruby, He
died in prison. He had he got sick cancer in prison.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
But he never talked, never talked. He never talked, which.
Speaker 8 (08:39):
Adds to conspiracies, right of course, Well he had nothing
to say.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Well, I think that I was mad and I killed him, right,
Well that was.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
That was that he idolized JFK and he was so
horrified and depressed and angry that he did this spontaneous act.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
That's right, And he never applied. Somebody put it up
to him to get rid of the Harby Oswald to
protect like another person behind him or anything.
Speaker 8 (09:10):
And one of the big questions ever was how is
it possible in such a huge setting with all of
the police and everybody's there and cameras when you're moving
the guy to prison or whatever, that security could be
so laxed to let a guy come up directly to
the assassin issue.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Part of the answer to that, which came out at
some point was that he was connected and had friends
in the police department. He had a gun ferment, which
in Texas you send him two Superman comics and you
get a gun from it.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
And security couldn't have been that good if they let
all these guys with those big cameras.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
The media was all over the.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Place, right, they were well known and open. It wasn't
like a super high security.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
And people know him. I mean, people are hey Jack,
I mean people were on a first nine basis from
the police department. With that, he was kind of a
I think you put it that way, John, he was
a fringe guy around whatever, and he probably needed police contexts,
maybe corrupt contexts for his clubs.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
You know, probably give them tidbits of information.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, you know, he'd give him something so that they
would look the other way in a permit or or whatever.
So that was then, and prior to that, he was
from Chicago. He was a thug as a kid.
Speaker 7 (10:20):
It's important to know at this stage and the story JFK.
Even though he was assassinated in Dallas. Originally that parade
route was going to be in Chicago, but they moved
it to Dallas.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So he gave me information that the inmate was friends
with the Ruby's brother or cousin the first time he
told me the story his brother brother. So basically, the
inmate told us that Jack Ruby's brother had rented a
short term rental along the parade the proposed parade route
in Chicago, which was probably Michigan Avenue or State Streets
(10:50):
or one of the main drags there. So we had
some tidbits and I don't recall exactly what we were able
to verify, but we verified certain aspects of that, like
the story or the relative or the effect of that
was the parade route, but we've verified enough to keep
us kind of interested. So he'd have you come back
and he'd give you more information. Yeah, pretty much, or
(11:12):
we'd say, well that checked out. And he was very
proud of himself, and he thought, okay, well, you know
who knows we needed to report this to our supervisor
because a had interesting tenbits that may be worth following up.
And we directed because you know, it was kind of unique.
We reported directly to the states attorneys. But he's former
at FI, remember, and so he thought that was interesting
(11:34):
and he said, right, let me call some of my
old friends. And you called me back in at one
point and said at b I will take care of this.
They they're interested, they'll follow up on this. You're off
that casse. I mean, well, it wasn't even a case really,
it was kind of an inquiry. I don't even know
if there had been a case file. Establishment.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
You're following, you're following the clues and leads and well
down that road.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Those days you're working with you know, you call him pformance.
On some level. There are different types of informants, and
for the sake of discussion, he was an informant about
information that was potentially worth following up on.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So they said, don't go down that rabbit hole.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Right pretty much, And anyways, it was like, if that's true,
that's bigger than we are or you are, and again
I'm twenty four years old. Whatever, this is beyond you
and we'll turn it over to the bureau. As we
discussed earlier, locals and fans didn't get along real well.
(12:34):
But my boss was former FBI and I was so
far down the totem pole that it wasn't my position to say, well,
you're kidding, boss, this is great, this is a great
case for us to follow up on. You know. It
was like, okay, well here you go.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
Well, even from the beginning again I'm reading.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
This book on Judd to Hoover.
Speaker 8 (12:52):
Hoover was very interested in, you know, very quickly saying
that Lee Harvey Oswald was the assassin and cutting it
down because he knew from decades of trying to protect
the Bureau and then what the Bureau covered, that these
political sort of issues could get out a hand and
they would start to rebound against the FBI. So the
more they started to question, like why didn't they look
(13:13):
into Lee Harvey Asswold when he traveled to Mexico to
the Cuban embassy of the Russian embassy, and he was
in Russian why didn't you do and so he was
very interested in sort of quickly coming to the conclusion.
So very quickly they wrote like a four hundred page
thing which then President Johnson, who followed up after Kennedy
was killed, decided to create a commission, the Warrent Commission,
(13:33):
to look into this correct And at the time Johnson
and Hoover were talking to each other, and both of
them are trying to say, let's do this as quickly
as possible.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Is keep this down.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I agree with you.
Speaker 8 (13:42):
It looks like it's Lee Harvey Ailswald was trying to
keep all these other questions out, but of course that
couldn't happen.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
And as much as they tried to.
Speaker 8 (13:50):
Do that, more and more questions came in regarding the Russians,
regarding Jack.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Ruby's and.
Speaker 8 (13:57):
Kennedy right, and THEBA want yes Epians to protect themselves.
And if you remember, Hoover's boss was Robert Kennedy, also
in his early thirties at the time, is the attorney.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And there was no love loss. They hated each other, yeap,
So I go back to Joliet to tell my quote informant,
for lack of a better term, that the affair is
going to look into this, and you should be under
the circumstances. You would think an informant would be very
happy for something like that, because it means he's been
taken seriously exactly. But when I went there, I was
(14:34):
surprised to find out that he had been killed in prison.
Oh oh, just in that in those few weeks I
remember if it was a weight weeks or maybe a
month and a half, we'll say it was for weeks
for this for the sake of the discussion.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
And did you find out who killed him?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Or why? Or I mean not why? Prison? Prison fight?
That was all I got. It was a prison fight.
Of course, this happened a lot in prisons. That there
would be, you know, a guy with a kN It
could be over turf, it could be over politics, internally, gangs,
it could be a million things. But the timing was odd,
certainly in hindsight when you look back at it, it
(15:11):
was interesting timing. Now I was going to tell him
we were done anyway.
Speaker 8 (15:16):
Obviously that would make you concern and sort of look
into things. Did you on your own over the over
the coming years looking to Jack Ruby and connections. So
this is potentially suggesting that Jack Ruby may be more involved.
Traditionally thought that it might have actually been involved working well.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
And again Ruby was Chicago, so you had a connection
with Ruby in Chicago and a parade route and Kennedy
in the same time period. Ruby. Going back, I think
we were talking earlier that there were all these theories
of course that the Mob assassinated Kennedy. The Jim Kanna connection.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Wasn't he Chicago too?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Oh yeah, he was the godfather in Chicago and he
was a well known hit. I mean I tailed Jim
kind of a number of His girlfriend was sleeping with
Kennedy and gan Conna, and so one of the theories
was that gian Conna took Kennedy out over the girl,
over the girlfriend.
Speaker 8 (16:11):
It was crazy kind of like so I know, also
Kennedy and the CIA were working with the Mob to
assassinate Castro in Cuba.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Somebody else, No, that was gan Conna. There was that theory.
But again Ruby, I think he hadn't worked for Giancanna
at one point early in his career. They were both
part of that old Mob the outfit we used to
call in Chicago. That might have been a local term.
But there was a connection. I mean, it wasn't a
far reach to see the connection between Ruby, Chicago, the
(16:43):
Kennedy Parade route potentially communist. I mean, it wasn't like, oh, well,
that doesn't make any sense. It wasn't Witchital, Kansas or Newark,
New Jersey with Chicago with the connection to Kennedy and Ruby.
So that what made it a little more interesting than
just oh that is the possible thing.
Speaker 7 (16:59):
Well, the other part of the riddle here is if
you connect these imaginary dots that the FBI or someone
someone in the federal government had this witness killed because
it was exposing.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
What time great analogy. But so you guys are the
conspiracy theory experts.
Speaker 7 (17:19):
My question to you is, given this information, what what
could you theorize really happened?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Given this new information, The.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Dots aren't theoretical, it's the connections between them that we
can only guess it. So you've got the dots, but
how you connect them and whether they connect, Well, let
me ask a question this epical public was.
Speaker 8 (17:37):
There ever any public thing or authors or journalists who
dug in if that I ever recalled.
Speaker 7 (17:42):
That's why it's a story that I've only heard from
him and nowhere else.
Speaker 8 (17:46):
Will this story even more interested if in the coming
weeks after this is air that he's killed.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
One. We can only hope this show.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, I was really a pretty.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Mad pleasure. I'm in John Stearn's home.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
What's the address again?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
And I'll be living here for a cemetery.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
He's got vicious dogs, but he.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Does one story.
Speaker 7 (18:17):
Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and when
we come back, probably Uncle be able to tell us
who killed get it?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Where is that one? I mean, you know, you look
back at it and you can project a lot of
possibilities here. I mean, this guy could have run full
of crap. Maybe he had a cellmate that knew Jack
Ruby's family, and the rest of it was made up.
The thing that made it more interesting if you look
back at it, was that Kennedy was supposedly going to
(18:47):
be Integra and the parade room and the parade also,
just like in Dallas, back in those days, parade roots
and presidents were public. They were publishing front page of
newspapers so that the public could go and watch president.
Speaker 8 (19:00):
Do you remember more about the cellmate, because I mean,
obviously that's the key.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Like who was that he was, where did he go?
Who's he was? He was a non entity, and that's
what kind of made it problematic. He had a link
that he was a Chicago win so that made it
a little more credible. A lot of guys from the
Mob were in Joliet, and so there was a link
between the Chicago Mob and inmates into Chicago. So informiation
(19:23):
could have easily gone between those two sources. Jerry and
John separately.
Speaker 7 (19:27):
What is your prevailing theory about the Kennedy assassination?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
There's so much, there's so much to it.
Speaker 8 (19:33):
I think, probably similar to Jerry is we tend to
believe the simplest explanation, right. So there were professional investigators,
there was the FBI, the Warrent Commission. Lots of people
have looked at this, and even the people who come
up with all sorts of theories, they are less likely
than the direct theory that a crazy guy who had
connections that were worth looking into in Russia and Cuba
(19:55):
and Mexico and all the sorts of places decided to
kill the president.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
And just a few years ago, reread the War and
Commission stuff.
Speaker 8 (20:02):
And this was after there had been the movie, and
there's been a number of other books and stories of
complaining about the War and Commission that they didn't look
into this.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
It did seem to cover a lot of those things.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
The War Commission seemed to cover a lot of the things.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
There was pretty terrible that.
Speaker 8 (20:13):
People said, oh, they didn't look into this, and they
did look at that they and I thought they did.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah. I get concerned when people get wrapped around the
axel On minutia. There's sort of two things that I'm
concerned about it. This one is these detailed descriptions of
ballistics on the bullet couldn't.
Speaker 9 (20:31):
Have ballistics is a very inexacic science, and understanding how
a bullet travels is something that's extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible,
to predict.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And the other thing is that the CIA always seems
to get involved. I think if there was a Winer conspiracy,
it would seem to me that it would be one
of two things. It was one Castro was looking to
kill Kennedy, because Kennedy was looking to kill absolutely right.
And we do know that the shooter spent time in
(21:03):
Mexico and the other is that the Soviets were humiliated
after the standoff, and so this is a guy, the
Harvey Oswald, who spent time in Russia, and to be frank,
the Soviets did have a long history of killing people
they didn't like. Now it is a stretch killing the
President the United States, But it's not beyond the pale
(21:26):
that Lee Harvey Oswald would have thought, in meeting with
a case officer that that's what they wanted, or that
he was doing them a favor. It doesn't always have
to be I want you to do X. It's often
could be he was trying to show off. But I
think the fact that he had links to the KGB
and lived there, I think if he lived there, it's
almost impossible for him not to have had links. So
(21:48):
I'm open to those possibilities, but I don't think they've
been proven.
Speaker 8 (21:53):
Lee Harveaz was a marine, right a sharpshooter, sharp shooters
or whatever you call at the time, was in Japan
and then eventually left the Marines and defected to Russia.
Made his way to Moscow. The KGB did question him there,
married a Russian woman, and the.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
KGB then sent him to Belarus. To mintzk which is
a republic inside Russia.
Speaker 8 (22:14):
Married a Bellerussian woman, Marina, and then eventually he was
working as a tool of die person there for some
period of time and maybe even as much of a
couple of years, tried to change his citizenship for being
an American to being a Russian and eventually made his
way back to the United States and the KGB part
of it. Obviously, after the shooting, the concern was, oh,
my god, the guy who shot Kennedy had spent time
(22:36):
in Russia and clearly had connections with the Russian intelligence.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
Services to KGB at the time.
Speaker 8 (22:41):
And he had traveled to Mexico and been seen visiting
the Russian embassy at the Quban Embassy while he was
in Mexico, and the FBI was aware of this and
were investigating. They hadn't talked to him yet, but they
had investigated this prior to the shooting, so when the
shooting came up, they were like, ooh, we've been paying
attention to this guy, not because we thought he'd be
an assassin, but because we thought he was tied to
(23:02):
the Communist Party. If you remember, at the time, they
were very focused on communists and then similar to this
time a Russian defector, and then you're in Asenko defects
the United States and says.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
Oh, by the way, among the other things, I'm telling.
Speaker 8 (23:15):
You, I was on the internal service to KGB, which
looked at foreigners inside Russia, and I looked at the
file of Lejavey Oswald and we talked to him, but
we thought he was a low level nobody and sent
him off to Minsk and didn't pay much attention to him.
But of course then there was a big concern afterwards
that like, did the Russians send this guy to us
here to tell us this story to try to deflect
(23:37):
us from interest. So all of a sudden, you know,
the Russian Kremlin says, holy shit, our guy killed the
president of the United States. They're gonna realize we were
behind it.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
Send this defector off to tell the story.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
That we had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 8 (23:49):
And so that went on and on, and it's a
really sad story part of the CIA, because this guy
was eventually brought down to a special prison cell that
was created just for him to be to be interrogated
for several years and given drugs and all sorts of things,
and he never confessed, and there was lots of internal
CIA studies back and forth different parts of the CIA,
(24:11):
and Head of Counterintelligence James Ingleton, was convinced that Mosenko
was a false defector came here to try to deflect us,
and other people thought the opposite. Eventually, over lots of
internal fights over a number of years, the CIA came
to the conclusion which the FBI had come to long before,
that Nosenko was a real defector and that Russians likely
(24:31):
did not have anything to do with the Kennedy assassination.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
As far as the I mean, how things work in
real life. There's one incident I can think of, and
I'm not going to go into specific details, but something
violent happened, and it happened to one of our adversaries
in a country. And what came out of this violent
event was we were able to get some intelligence out
(24:54):
of it. Right, something was stolen from one of our
adversaries that would be helpful to us. Oh, well, that's interesting.
And one of my guys comes to me afterwards and says, hey, man,
I was out drinking with some of our buddies, like
a couple of weeks ago, and we were drinking, and
I said, wouldn't it be funny if somebody did this?
(25:18):
And they all laughed and we said yeah. He said, oh,
it would be like something out of a novel, and
then we just moved on. And then exactly what he
said happened. And basically there was a break in in
this one place and the computers were stolen. And he's like,
I didn't order him to it. I just had a
couple of drinks and I was just.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Like, I didn't do nothing. I didn't, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
And they obviously afterwards they went, that's sort of interesting,
Maybe we should do that. And they probably also thought,
was he hinting to us that we should do it?
And he was not right. He didn't even think of
it after that. And so when I think of Lee
Harvey Oswald, I also want under if he didn't talk
(26:01):
to one of his handlers, or when he went into
the walked into the embassy in Mexico to the Soviet embassy,
if somebody didn't said that fucking Kennedy, you know, bah,
and he's thinking, hey, I can be a hero. That
doesn't mean that they did it, But I think there's
a lot of gray areas in there.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
There's other theories.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
There's many theories.
Speaker 8 (26:22):
I don't know all of them, but we have a friend,
longtime senior career CIA officer worked in all kinds of places,
very accomplished. It's a bit of a conspiracy theorist, but
also very bright who was really dug into this. He
would have to explain it because I don't know all
the deal, but he believes there was a generation of
CI officers were really angry at Kennedy for not taking
(26:44):
on Communism the Soviets properly, and especially after the Bay
of Pigs where they were sort of hung out to dry,
and therefore may have been involved in something related to
the assassination. I don't know anything about it. I don't
buy it necessarily, but this is another one of the
theories that can He was hated by the hardcore right
wing people of the National security space, so it.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Wasn't CIA, it was CIA officers working on their own
I think that's what.
Speaker 8 (27:10):
I'd have to have a listen to that Mission Impossible
movie Rogue Office.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I think John and I would agree that if it
was a CIA operation, it is almost impossible inside of
the CII to keep something like that secret. I mean
there would be highly classified operations that I was not
read into that. I don't even know how. I didn't
know the details, but I kind of knew him from
(27:39):
hanging around in the coffee shop, or you know, you
walk in on a meeting and the dots and duncan
do yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And I have heard in
thirty three years, not a peep out of like we
might have been involved, or again it was a bit
before our time, But I never heard anything like that
(27:59):
any what about you?
Speaker 8 (28:01):
Impossible to imagine that they could be held that secret
for that long on their deathbed, wouldn't say anything like
I mean, I worked in for thirty years, I had
any inkling who about it.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
I'd like it.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
I'd try to make some cash off right now.
Speaker 7 (28:16):
Now we still might figure out who killed Kennedy, but
we have.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
To have a short break first.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
No, I know, no one cares about my theory. I do.
I've developed this as a result of working with you guys.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
I don't like it now, I don't like it.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
I've learned so much from.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
So I don't have a theory as to why leave
Harvey Oswald killed him, Whether it was the Cubans, the mafia,
the Russians, the CIA, whatever, he was connected to someone.
But I do have a theory that at some point
the federal government figured out who was behind it, maybe
even a very loose way. But who would get blamed
(29:03):
for being behind it? Maybe there's a Russians, maybe there's
a Cubans, there's a mob, right, whoever it was, it
is better to keep that hidden than to allow that
to come out, because then there would have to be
a response. And the only way there couldn't be a
response that's required is if it was a lone gunman.
If it was the CIA, well all hell breaks. If
(29:24):
it was a mob, I mean war between the government
and the mob at that point. If it was Russia
or Cuba, then it's World War three. This dovetails with
your story about the informant being killed by I'll just
say the FBI, because it was necessary to keep whoever
was behind this under wraps.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
So let me throw this stchet from someone who has
done conspiracies, not obviously like this, But.
Speaker 10 (29:48):
You know you didn't kill Kennedy, No, but you were
telling yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
So your operation is only as good as the weakest link.
So if insert whoever it is wants to kill Kennedy,
if who they're going to use, if they're vector, even
if he's not the only guy, let's run with the
grassi and old theory. He's gonna get he's gonna get caught.
And Lee Harvey Oswald, by all accounts, is not a
(30:21):
guy who's going to keep his mouth shut.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
That's for Jack Ruby, because.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, now you're getting into a pretty byzantine conspiracy.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
But if you assume institutions have incentives, is what you're saying.
You're saying each institutions and incentively, if we thought it
was the Russians that might start a war, if we
thought it was the mob, it might start And so
the FBI is saying, Okay, we don't want to do
this because we don't want to start a war with
the mob, and c I just wanted to just want
to start a war with the Russians or whatever.
Speaker 8 (30:46):
That's giving institutions almost like human brains and they're thinking
this thing through.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
But there's a lot of people institutions.
Speaker 8 (30:52):
And they don't always think the same way. And so
there's all kinds of people at low levels who are
getting this kind of stuff, and you're assuming that somehow
they think the same way, Like, yes, if the leadership
got together and said we don't want that to come out,
but I'm I don't care.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
If there's a way with the Russians.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
This is exciting ship, I'm gonna like tell.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Everybody, but I'm gonna tell it. I'm gonna get drunk
and tell my money. So well, who would do that?
Speaker 7 (31:15):
This is the flaw that you guys find with almost
one hundred percent of the conspiracy theories, which is there
are just too many people that would have had to
keep it secret and it would have.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Come out right.
Speaker 7 (31:24):
And Jerry's always saying Occam's razor to all of these things,
and it's it's hard to disagree, although once in a
while it's.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
A is a rule of thumb, which doesn't mean it always.
Speaker 8 (31:35):
Well, the problem is there's probably pieces of this that
don't hold together that people don't want to talk about.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
It leads people down roads and stuff.
Speaker 8 (31:41):
So so yeah, I think there's probably more story than
the clean story. But that whether that means it's a
massive conspiracy?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
So is it?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You've spent a lot of time with the police, right,
if you were gonna kill Kennedy, would you again again?
Would you would you would you put somebody in a
tower where they don't have, you know, a perfect shot.
They got to get it just right, or would you
put it? There's like other ways of doing it much
(32:10):
more ways were like you're more likely to get away absolutely,
like maybe get a better rifle, maybe get a better shot,
maybe get out, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
The poison theory, you know, put a bomb in the road.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
There's a lot of things you can do. And if
I were going to do it, I get a better rifle,
I'd probably get it. If I was wanting to pancy,
I'd get a better better, better pantsy than Oswald I
would put. You know, I would be thinking of like
how am I getting How is he going to get away? Well,
because you want to get.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Away, Yeah, that's the key is you make a plan,
but the plan involves how I get away with it.
But of course the prisoners are all full of guys,
we're idiots.
Speaker 8 (32:47):
Well, yeah, it's funny, like we've seen a number of
recently Indians, the Turks and the Russians now in Europe
had like tried to hire killers to take out people
for them. There's this interesting thing that a lot of
people try to reach out to find hitmen. And I
think law enforcement has been like incredibly successful because essentially
(33:07):
there are no hitmen. People come looking for hitmen, there's
no such thing. But they people start looking for him,
and then they come across law enforcements thing and they're like,
let's watch this guy.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
The Russian guy who killed the dissident in Berlin. His getaway.
He was on a freaking bicycle. So he rode by
and he shot and killed the guy. But everybody saw
it was in broad daylight, and you know what, his
bicycle could not run a police guard right.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Went through.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well I don't know, I mean thinking that this is
a paid Russian.
Speaker 8 (33:45):
But Whattin did then is arrested, A bunch of Americans
held them prisoner and then swapped to get the guy.
Speaker 7 (33:51):
There's always one step ahead that guy and the the.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Indians didn't do a very good job. They got caught
and in Canada and Canada and on other than Michael Flynn,
the National Security Advisor for a couple of days did
talk to he's.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
A frequent target of this podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well he did. He did talk about trying to kidnap
this he today gulan.
Speaker 8 (34:16):
Turkish guy in Pennsylvania that awan the head of Turkey
believes did a big coup against him.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know, even Michael Flynn when he was on the
inside and he was going after al Qaida and Isis
and Iraq, he was effective and efficient and he made
things happen. And well, these guys were his guys, were
his guys were. But you know, he came up with
a shitty planned to try to kidnap a guy out
of the Poconos and didn't work out. For at least
(34:45):
he said he did. John and I never got caught.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
By the way, we're just putting that out.
Speaker 8 (34:50):
It helps not to actually do it.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
But we never got I never got you never got arrested.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I don't think he solved it, But this is this
is great.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Oh it's interesting and now fifty some years later, but
you look back at you you know, maybe something to it,
but again just another theory.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And running operations. I will say that the world is
full of weird coincidences, right, absolutely, It's like coincidences happen
all the time. We're taught we do surveillance detection.
Speaker 8 (35:24):
Once you're out, you're moving, let's you're driving your car
to see a phone's following and you're chosen a route
that you believe you can manipulate someone who might be
tracking you and see.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
What they're there. You're like hyper aware.
Speaker 8 (35:36):
You look around and you realize there's all kinds of
shit that's like there's guys sitting.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
In cars and people in places. Also you're like, oh
my god, what that doesn't make sense?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Why are they doing this? Like why did this part?
Speaker 5 (35:48):
Like all kinds of stuff that doesn't make sense. You
got to work your way through that and find a
way to continue on to it. It's all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Also, I think we all found out an investigation, it's
usually the simple answer. Yeah. In the end, we talked
about these conspiracies and these complicated ways of looking at things,
And in the end, I most investigation goes, of course.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
He did yeah, the butler.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
The butler did it. The butler did it.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I remember one time I broke a rule at CIA.
I was supposed to meet this guy and we're gonna
meet in a certain place, and he was early and
I bumped into him on the street, and we probably
shouldn't have said anything to each other, right, pretending we
didn't know each other, but he didn't, and he looked
at me and said, can we please please just go
(36:30):
for a drink. And now this is in Berlin, where
there are fifteen hundred bars and restaurants and everything like that,
and he says, I just want to have a drink,
you know, just the two USTs, like the old days.
And I'm like, we're both clean. Who's gonna know, right,
I'm like, okay, twenty minutes, I'll meet you at a
certain place at a certain time, like wasn't far away.
(36:51):
And so we went off and we went into this
bacrner of an Irish pub in places a few people in.
It was really big and dark, and we shared a
beer and talked, and then he went back and then
we did our correct meeting. The next day, I went
into work and another officer came over to me and said,
how was your guinness?
Speaker 6 (37:12):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (37:14):
And I'm like.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
And he said, I saw you sitting over in the
corner over there. And I said, was that so and so?
And I'm like, yeah it was. I said, where were you?
He says, I was in another corner with another thing.
I was meeting with selling. Oh my god, we had
two meetings in the same place. Today they are like
twelve hundred.
Speaker 7 (37:37):
Places in the Cold War would have ended sooner up
that was the only really dark Irish Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Well, Dave, it was incredible to hear your story. I'd
love to hear more of your stories. We've we've crossed
in different places.
Speaker 8 (37:52):
Your stories about how different agencies work and don't work
together resonates with us around. I want to thank you
very much much for spending some time with us, and
it's also nice to be together for a change.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Not Worthy.
Speaker 7 (38:05):
Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Seipher,
and Jonathan Stern.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
The associate producer is Rachel Harner.
Speaker 7 (38:14):
Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable
pictures for iHeart Podcasts.
I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'sha. I was a
CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts
in Europe, Russia, and in Asia.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East
and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive
our adversaries.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy
theories large and small.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Could they be true?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Or are we being manipulated?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
This is mission implausible?
Speaker 4 (00:30):
All right, guys, I think we've now worked together long
enough that we can get to the issue that is
the one I most wanted.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
To talk to you about, the great white whale.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
When people say CIA and conspiracy theories, it's actually kind
of weird. We haven't done the big one. Where did
Peanut Eminem? No, that's not it. I love Eminem's are
good pratsol Eminem's I enjoyed, but I'm against them morally. No,
we're talking about did you guys kill JFK?
Speaker 5 (00:59):
Well?
Speaker 6 (00:59):
I actually I think the jfk assassination thing is far
bigger than just did the CIA did it? Because there's
views that it could have been the Cuba, as it
could have been the Russians. It could have been the mafia.
Fux Clay, it could have been the mafia. Like it
is like the mother of all conspiracy theories.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
So in CIA, are there people who show up as
new employees and they're like, where are the files?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Like?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
How is it talked about within CIA?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
That's a good question.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I mostly people joke about it, don't they.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah, oh, I found we're.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Very focused on collecting foreign intelligence.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Now and not looking at past successes.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
You know, we're too screwed up to be able to
keep a secret like that for that long.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
All right, so today and we should tell our listeners
we're going to revisit I mean, to be honest, we
could do every episode about the JFK assassination and probably
have more listeners, to be honest with you, not the
same listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
So what's interesting to me is the JFK assassination theories.
It's very American. I mean, Richard hoff Staider famously wrote
The Paranoid dial in American Politics, and that talks about
how we've always loved these kind of conspiracy theories because
our country was built on a distrust of elites is
built into the system.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
And in other countries in the world, though they just
do kill people. They do kill people.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Well, this episode is cool because we've never done this before.
But we've all got together in the same room over
at John Stearn's house in LA and we had a
special guest. So, John Stern, why don't you tell us
who our special guest is.
Speaker 7 (02:28):
You're about to audibly meet my uncle David Rubin. Let's
cut to the live recording in front of a studio
audience of four members of my family and three dogs.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
Now and Jerry drank all of John's booze. That's that's
what I remember about that event. Well, this week's episode
of Mission and Plasmo is a little bit different. We
are in person for the first time. Jerry and I
are in Los Angeles at the home of our producer,
John Stern, and he's bringing a special guest to us
to talk to today. And we have a little bit
(03:00):
of an audience, and we're drinking John's booze, and so
it may take us a little longer to get to
the to get to where we're going, but bear with us.
Speaker 7 (03:10):
You gotta talk a lot about the JFK assassination. What
is your particular fascination and insight to this. I mean,
you're more than just casual jfk assassination observers.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Right well, I have still had I have green stains
on my knee from the Grassy.
Speaker 7 (03:25):
Knoll, but it's just in an area that you're particularly
interested in talking about, is that right?
Speaker 5 (03:32):
Well?
Speaker 8 (03:33):
I think people who listen to the podcasts will understand
we are tend to be skeptical of conspiracy theories, and
jfk assassination theory is one of the great conspiracy theories
of all times, and so we tend to be nervous
about digging down too deeply in.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
The rabbit hole.
Speaker 8 (03:46):
But there is a, you know, an important CIA connection.
One of the early defectors to the CIA you're in, Nsenko,
came to the United States and told the story of
being the person who handled the files for the Harvey
Oswald when he was in Moscow. And of course at
the time there was a concern when Kennedy was shot,
were the Russians involved? Where the Russians involved with the Cubans.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
All the conspiracy theories, they can't all be right because
a lot of them conflict, but they can all be wrong.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
So I should introduce who David Rubin is. He's currently
a private investigator, but this is at the beginning of
his career. David, could you back us up and just
tell us the different jobs you've had.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Or I started in law enforcement in Chicago for the
Special Prosecutions Unit of the State's Attorney's Office. It was
a brand new unit by a brand new State's Attorney,
Bernard Carey, following a big scandal of a black panther
shooting with the old regime. Then I got hired by
San Francisco to start a special investigations unit again. Then
(04:48):
I got hired by Oakland, City of Oakland to form
the first police Review Board. Then I left there and
became a private consultant and private investigator.
Speaker 7 (04:57):
The story we're about to hear, i've met I ever
heard it from any other source.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
I've never read it, and I don't think.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's the answer.
Speaker 7 (05:04):
I think if it's true, it's a piece of the
puzzle that might spurse some questions. And you said you
started as a newbie in Chicago, and as a newbe
you and your partner had to do the job of
going to Joliet State Prison once a month.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Is that right? When you work, especially in a new
investigative unit in a local jurisdiction, you get a lot
of letters from inmates. Cook County Jail was one of
our big sources. Of course, Juliet State Penitentiary was another
big source. And if everybody in state prison or federal
penitentiaries are innocent, if you ask them, and they all
(05:41):
provide very detailed letters to tell you why they're innocent,
so that they could be given forgiveness. What they have
a committee didn't do that they didn't do because they're
all indicent. And as a new investigator, one of my
early assignments was, I got all those letters and I
we've going to Joe when letters have come in from
(06:01):
inmates saying we got a bunch of crimes that could
solve for you if you could get us out of here.
Of course, and of course ninety nine point nine percent
of these things were nonsense and we're just feeble attempts
by inmates to try and swing a deal. Every once
in a while, I get a little tidbit I might
help you with some kind of crime, So you went
(06:22):
along with it, and I'd get a stack on my
desk of letters, and my partner and I would do
the interviews with the inmates to see what they had.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
How do they choose who gets these things? And is
there squabbles between organizations?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Ever back in the day, there were always squabbles the
federal agencies and the local agencies. I'm hoping that has
ceased to be beautiful. They still they still squabble. Okay, gee, gentlemen,
I shocked to hear that. I mean literally, you would
investigate the same case. And I mean I remember one
(06:56):
particular case where literally guns were drawn by the federal
agents and local and coming around the corner, there's the
same building under the same investigation. It was lucky nothing disaster,
which occur. So there's one letter. So a letter comes in. Correct,
a letter comes in and an inmate states that he
has information about the Kennedy assassination. So this is nineteen
(07:17):
seventy four, so nine or ten years after the assassination.
So kind of interesting to read something like that. It
beats the local I'm minisova a couple of robberies around
the corner. Letters. So I go and interview this particular
in it and he gets a story that he had
had a cell mat that was involved in friends with
(07:42):
the Jack Ruby connection. And Ruby was from Chicago. He
was a local club owner, a fringe mobster. Actually was
friends with Gene Connon. So Jack Ruby and I'm just
his real name was Rubinstein, Yes, Rubinstein, exactly. You go.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
So Jack Ruby was a owned a couple of sort
of bars, strip clubs in Dallas, sort of one of
these people that was on the fringe of society. And
he was somebody.
Speaker 8 (08:08):
It was either day after the second day after when
the police were moving Lee Harvey Oswald to a new facility,
to a new jail. They moved him through an area
where there's a lot of national news cameras and and
Jack Ruby essentially just came out of the crowd with
a gun and shot them in the stomach and killed him.
And it was the first time there's ever been a
murder on national television.
Speaker 7 (08:28):
In the long run, what ended upapping Jack Ruby, He
died in prison. He had he got sick cancer in prison.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
But he never talked, never talked. He never talked, which.
Speaker 8 (08:39):
Adds to conspiracies, right of course, Well he had nothing
to say.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Well, I think that I was mad and I killed him, right,
Well that was.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
That was that he idolized JFK and he was so
horrified and depressed and angry that he did this spontaneous act.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
That's right, And he never applied. Somebody put it up
to him to get rid of the Harby Oswald to
protect like another person behind him or anything.
Speaker 8 (09:10):
And one of the big questions ever was how is
it possible in such a huge setting with all of
the police and everybody's there and cameras when you're moving
the guy to prison or whatever, that security could be
so laxed to let a guy come up directly to
the assassin issue.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Part of the answer to that, which came out at
some point was that he was connected and had friends
in the police department. He had a gun ferment, which
in Texas you send him two Superman comics and you
get a gun from it.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
And security couldn't have been that good if they let
all these guys with those big cameras.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
The media was all over the.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Place, right, they were well known and open. It wasn't
like a super high security.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
And people know him. I mean, people are hey Jack,
I mean people were on a first nine basis from
the police department. With that, he was kind of a
I think you put it that way, John, he was
a fringe guy around whatever, and he probably needed police contexts,
maybe corrupt contexts for his clubs.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
You know, probably give them tidbits of information.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, you know, he'd give him something so that they
would look the other way in a permit or or whatever.
So that was then, and prior to that, he was
from Chicago. He was a thug as a kid.
Speaker 7 (10:20):
It's important to know at this stage and the story JFK.
Even though he was assassinated in Dallas. Originally that parade
route was going to be in Chicago, but they moved
it to Dallas.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So he gave me information that the inmate was friends
with the Ruby's brother or cousin the first time he
told me the story his brother brother. So basically, the
inmate told us that Jack Ruby's brother had rented a
short term rental along the parade the proposed parade route
in Chicago, which was probably Michigan Avenue or State Streets
(10:50):
or one of the main drags there. So we had
some tidbits and I don't recall exactly what we were able
to verify, but we verified certain aspects of that, like
the story or the relative or the effect of that
was the parade route, but we've verified enough to keep
us kind of interested. So he'd have you come back
and he'd give you more information. Yeah, pretty much, or
(11:12):
we'd say, well that checked out. And he was very
proud of himself, and he thought, okay, well, you know
who knows we needed to report this to our supervisor
because a had interesting tenbits that may be worth following up.
And we directed because you know, it was kind of unique.
We reported directly to the states attorneys. But he's former
at FI, remember, and so he thought that was interesting
(11:34):
and he said, right, let me call some of my
old friends. And you called me back in at one
point and said at b I will take care of this.
They they're interested, they'll follow up on this. You're off
that casse. I mean, well, it wasn't even a case really,
it was kind of an inquiry. I don't even know
if there had been a case file. Establishment.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
You're following, you're following the clues and leads and well
down that road.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Those days you're working with you know, you call him pformance.
On some level. There are different types of informants, and
for the sake of discussion, he was an informant about
information that was potentially worth following up on.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So they said, don't go down that rabbit hole.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Right pretty much, And anyways, it was like, if that's true,
that's bigger than we are or you are, and again
I'm twenty four years old. Whatever, this is beyond you
and we'll turn it over to the bureau. As we
discussed earlier, locals and fans didn't get along real well.
(12:34):
But my boss was former FBI and I was so
far down the totem pole that it wasn't my position to say, well,
you're kidding, boss, this is great, this is a great
case for us to follow up on. You know. It
was like, okay, well here you go.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
Well, even from the beginning again I'm reading.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
This book on Judd to Hoover.
Speaker 8 (12:52):
Hoover was very interested in, you know, very quickly saying
that Lee Harvey Oswald was the assassin and cutting it
down because he knew from decades of trying to protect
the Bureau and then what the Bureau covered, that these
political sort of issues could get out a hand and
they would start to rebound against the FBI. So the
more they started to question, like why didn't they look
(13:13):
into Lee Harvey Asswold when he traveled to Mexico to
the Cuban embassy of the Russian embassy, and he was
in Russian why didn't you do and so he was
very interested in sort of quickly coming to the conclusion.
So very quickly they wrote like a four hundred page
thing which then President Johnson, who followed up after Kennedy
was killed, decided to create a commission, the Warrent Commission,
(13:33):
to look into this correct And at the time Johnson
and Hoover were talking to each other, and both of
them are trying to say, let's do this as quickly
as possible.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Is keep this down.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I agree with you.
Speaker 8 (13:42):
It looks like it's Lee Harvey Ailswald was trying to
keep all these other questions out, but of course that
couldn't happen.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
And as much as they tried to.
Speaker 8 (13:50):
Do that, more and more questions came in regarding the Russians,
regarding Jack.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Ruby's and.
Speaker 8 (13:57):
Kennedy right, and THEBA want yes Epians to protect themselves.
And if you remember, Hoover's boss was Robert Kennedy, also
in his early thirties at the time, is the attorney.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And there was no love loss. They hated each other, yeap,
So I go back to Joliet to tell my quote informant,
for lack of a better term, that the affair is
going to look into this, and you should be under
the circumstances. You would think an informant would be very
happy for something like that, because it means he's been
taken seriously exactly. But when I went there, I was
(14:34):
surprised to find out that he had been killed in prison.
Oh oh, just in that in those few weeks I
remember if it was a weight weeks or maybe a
month and a half, we'll say it was for weeks
for this for the sake of the discussion.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
And did you find out who killed him?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Or why? Or I mean not why? Prison? Prison fight?
That was all I got. It was a prison fight.
Of course, this happened a lot in prisons. That there
would be, you know, a guy with a kN It
could be over turf, it could be over politics, internally, gangs,
it could be a million things. But the timing was odd,
certainly in hindsight when you look back at it, it
(15:11):
was interesting timing. Now I was going to tell him
we were done anyway.
Speaker 8 (15:16):
Obviously that would make you concern and sort of look
into things. Did you on your own over the over
the coming years looking to Jack Ruby and connections. So
this is potentially suggesting that Jack Ruby may be more involved.
Traditionally thought that it might have actually been involved working well.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
And again Ruby was Chicago, so you had a connection
with Ruby in Chicago and a parade route and Kennedy
in the same time period. Ruby. Going back, I think
we were talking earlier that there were all these theories
of course that the Mob assassinated Kennedy. The Jim Kanna connection.
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Wasn't he Chicago too?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Oh yeah, he was the godfather in Chicago and he
was a well known hit. I mean I tailed Jim
kind of a number of His girlfriend was sleeping with
Kennedy and gan Conna, and so one of the theories
was that gian Conna took Kennedy out over the girl,
over the girlfriend.
Speaker 8 (16:11):
It was crazy kind of like so I know, also
Kennedy and the CIA were working with the Mob to
assassinate Castro in Cuba.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Somebody else, No, that was gan Conna. There was that theory.
But again Ruby, I think he hadn't worked for Giancanna
at one point early in his career. They were both
part of that old Mob the outfit we used to
call in Chicago. That might have been a local term.
But there was a connection. I mean, it wasn't a
far reach to see the connection between Ruby, Chicago, the
(16:43):
Kennedy Parade route potentially communist. I mean, it wasn't like, oh, well,
that doesn't make any sense. It wasn't Witchital, Kansas or Newark,
New Jersey with Chicago with the connection to Kennedy and Ruby.
So that what made it a little more interesting than
just oh that is the possible thing.
Speaker 7 (16:59):
Well, the other part of the riddle here is if
you connect these imaginary dots that the FBI or someone
someone in the federal government had this witness killed because
it was exposing.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
What time great analogy. But so you guys are the
conspiracy theory experts.
Speaker 7 (17:19):
My question to you is, given this information, what what
could you theorize really happened?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Given this new information, The.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Dots aren't theoretical, it's the connections between them that we
can only guess it. So you've got the dots, but
how you connect them and whether they connect, Well, let
me ask a question this epical public was.
Speaker 8 (17:37):
There ever any public thing or authors or journalists who
dug in if that I ever recalled.
Speaker 7 (17:42):
That's why it's a story that I've only heard from
him and nowhere else.
Speaker 8 (17:46):
Will this story even more interested if in the coming
weeks after this is air that he's killed.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
One. We can only hope this show.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, I was really a pretty.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Mad pleasure. I'm in John Stearn's home.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
What's the address again?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
And I'll be living here for a cemetery.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
He's got vicious dogs, but he.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Does one story.
Speaker 7 (18:17):
Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and when
we come back, probably Uncle be able to tell us
who killed get it?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Where is that one? I mean, you know, you look
back at it and you can project a lot of
possibilities here. I mean, this guy could have run full
of crap. Maybe he had a cellmate that knew Jack
Ruby's family, and the rest of it was made up.
The thing that made it more interesting if you look
back at it, was that Kennedy was supposedly going to
(18:47):
be Integra and the parade room and the parade also,
just like in Dallas, back in those days, parade roots
and presidents were public. They were publishing front page of
newspapers so that the public could go and watch president.
Speaker 8 (19:00):
Do you remember more about the cellmate, because I mean,
obviously that's the key.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Like who was that he was, where did he go?
Who's he was? He was a non entity, and that's
what kind of made it problematic. He had a link
that he was a Chicago win so that made it
a little more credible. A lot of guys from the
Mob were in Joliet, and so there was a link
between the Chicago Mob and inmates into Chicago. So informiation
(19:23):
could have easily gone between those two sources. Jerry and
John separately.
Speaker 7 (19:27):
What is your prevailing theory about the Kennedy assassination?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
There's so much, there's so much to it.
Speaker 8 (19:33):
I think, probably similar to Jerry is we tend to
believe the simplest explanation, right. So there were professional investigators,
there was the FBI, the Warrent Commission. Lots of people
have looked at this, and even the people who come
up with all sorts of theories, they are less likely
than the direct theory that a crazy guy who had
connections that were worth looking into in Russia and Cuba
(19:55):
and Mexico and all the sorts of places decided to
kill the president.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
And just a few years ago, reread the War and
Commission stuff.
Speaker 8 (20:02):
And this was after there had been the movie, and
there's been a number of other books and stories of
complaining about the War and Commission that they didn't look
into this.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
It did seem to cover a lot of those things.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
The War Commission seemed to cover a lot of the things.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
There was pretty terrible that.
Speaker 8 (20:13):
People said, oh, they didn't look into this, and they
did look at that they and I thought they did.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah. I get concerned when people get wrapped around the
axel On minutia. There's sort of two things that I'm
concerned about it. This one is these detailed descriptions of
ballistics on the bullet couldn't.
Speaker 9 (20:31):
Have ballistics is a very inexacic science, and understanding how
a bullet travels is something that's extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible,
to predict.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And the other thing is that the CIA always seems
to get involved. I think if there was a Winer conspiracy,
it would seem to me that it would be one
of two things. It was one Castro was looking to
kill Kennedy, because Kennedy was looking to kill absolutely right.
And we do know that the shooter spent time in
(21:03):
Mexico and the other is that the Soviets were humiliated
after the standoff, and so this is a guy, the
Harvey Oswald, who spent time in Russia, and to be frank,
the Soviets did have a long history of killing people
they didn't like. Now it is a stretch killing the
President the United States, But it's not beyond the pale
(21:26):
that Lee Harvey Oswald would have thought, in meeting with
a case officer that that's what they wanted, or that
he was doing them a favor. It doesn't always have
to be I want you to do X. It's often
could be he was trying to show off. But I
think the fact that he had links to the KGB
and lived there, I think if he lived there, it's
almost impossible for him not to have had links. So
(21:48):
I'm open to those possibilities, but I don't think they've
been proven.
Speaker 8 (21:53):
Lee Harveaz was a marine, right a sharpshooter, sharp shooters
or whatever you call at the time, was in Japan
and then eventually left the Marines and defected to Russia.
Made his way to Moscow. The KGB did question him there,
married a Russian woman, and the.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
KGB then sent him to Belarus. To mintzk which is
a republic inside Russia.
Speaker 8 (22:14):
Married a Bellerussian woman, Marina, and then eventually he was
working as a tool of die person there for some
period of time and maybe even as much of a
couple of years, tried to change his citizenship for being
an American to being a Russian and eventually made his
way back to the United States and the KGB part
of it. Obviously, after the shooting, the concern was, oh,
my god, the guy who shot Kennedy had spent time
(22:36):
in Russia and clearly had connections with the Russian intelligence.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
Services to KGB at the time.
Speaker 8 (22:41):
And he had traveled to Mexico and been seen visiting
the Russian embassy at the Quban Embassy while he was
in Mexico, and the FBI was aware of this and
were investigating. They hadn't talked to him yet, but they
had investigated this prior to the shooting, so when the
shooting came up, they were like, ooh, we've been paying
attention to this guy, not because we thought he'd be
an assassin, but because we thought he was tied to
(23:02):
the Communist Party. If you remember, at the time, they
were very focused on communists and then similar to this
time a Russian defector, and then you're in Asenko defects
the United States and says.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
Oh, by the way, among the other things, I'm telling.
Speaker 8 (23:15):
You, I was on the internal service to KGB, which
looked at foreigners inside Russia, and I looked at the
file of Lejavey Oswald and we talked to him, but
we thought he was a low level nobody and sent
him off to Minsk and didn't pay much attention to him.
But of course then there was a big concern afterwards
that like, did the Russians send this guy to us
here to tell us this story to try to deflect
(23:37):
us from interest. So all of a sudden, you know,
the Russian Kremlin says, holy shit, our guy killed the
president of the United States. They're gonna realize we were
behind it.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
Send this defector off to tell the story.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
That we had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 8 (23:49):
And so that went on and on, and it's a
really sad story part of the CIA, because this guy
was eventually brought down to a special prison cell that
was created just for him to be to be interrogated
for several years and given drugs and all sorts of things,
and he never confessed, and there was lots of internal
CIA studies back and forth different parts of the CIA,
(24:11):
and Head of Counterintelligence James Ingleton, was convinced that Mosenko
was a false defector came here to try to deflect us,
and other people thought the opposite. Eventually, over lots of
internal fights over a number of years, the CIA came
to the conclusion which the FBI had come to long before,
that Nosenko was a real defector and that Russians likely
(24:31):
did not have anything to do with the Kennedy assassination.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
As far as the I mean, how things work in
real life. There's one incident I can think of, and
I'm not going to go into specific details, but something
violent happened, and it happened to one of our adversaries
in a country. And what came out of this violent
event was we were able to get some intelligence out
(24:54):
of it. Right, something was stolen from one of our
adversaries that would be helpful to us. Oh, well, that's interesting.
And one of my guys comes to me afterwards and says, hey, man,
I was out drinking with some of our buddies, like
a couple of weeks ago, and we were drinking, and
I said, wouldn't it be funny if somebody did this?
(25:18):
And they all laughed and we said yeah. He said, oh,
it would be like something out of a novel, and
then we just moved on. And then exactly what he
said happened. And basically there was a break in in
this one place and the computers were stolen. And he's like,
I didn't order him to it. I just had a
couple of drinks and I was just.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Like, I didn't do nothing. I didn't, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
And they obviously afterwards they went, that's sort of interesting,
Maybe we should do that. And they probably also thought,
was he hinting to us that we should do it?
And he was not right. He didn't even think of
it after that. And so when I think of Lee
Harvey Oswald, I also want under if he didn't talk
(26:01):
to one of his handlers, or when he went into
the walked into the embassy in Mexico to the Soviet embassy,
if somebody didn't said that fucking Kennedy, you know, bah,
and he's thinking, hey, I can be a hero. That
doesn't mean that they did it, But I think there's
a lot of gray areas in there.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
There's other theories.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
There's many theories.
Speaker 8 (26:22):
I don't know all of them, but we have a friend,
longtime senior career CIA officer worked in all kinds of places,
very accomplished. It's a bit of a conspiracy theorist, but
also very bright who was really dug into this. He
would have to explain it because I don't know all
the deal, but he believes there was a generation of
CI officers were really angry at Kennedy for not taking
(26:44):
on Communism the Soviets properly, and especially after the Bay
of Pigs where they were sort of hung out to dry,
and therefore may have been involved in something related to
the assassination. I don't know anything about it. I don't
buy it necessarily, but this is another one of the
theories that can He was hated by the hardcore right
wing people of the National security space, so it.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Wasn't CIA, it was CIA officers working on their own
I think that's what.
Speaker 8 (27:10):
I'd have to have a listen to that Mission Impossible
movie Rogue Office.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I think John and I would agree that if it
was a CIA operation, it is almost impossible inside of
the CII to keep something like that secret. I mean
there would be highly classified operations that I was not
read into that. I don't even know how. I didn't
know the details, but I kind of knew him from
(27:39):
hanging around in the coffee shop, or you know, you
walk in on a meeting and the dots and duncan
do yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And I have heard in
thirty three years, not a peep out of like we
might have been involved, or again it was a bit
before our time, But I never heard anything like that
(27:59):
any what about you?
Speaker 8 (28:01):
Impossible to imagine that they could be held that secret
for that long on their deathbed, wouldn't say anything like
I mean, I worked in for thirty years, I had
any inkling who about it.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
I'd like it.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
I'd try to make some cash off right now.
Speaker 7 (28:16):
Now we still might figure out who killed Kennedy, but
we have.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
To have a short break first.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
No, I know, no one cares about my theory. I do.
I've developed this as a result of working with you guys.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
I don't like it now, I don't like it.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
I've learned so much from.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
So I don't have a theory as to why leave
Harvey Oswald killed him, Whether it was the Cubans, the mafia,
the Russians, the CIA, whatever, he was connected to someone.
But I do have a theory that at some point
the federal government figured out who was behind it, maybe
even a very loose way. But who would get blamed
(29:03):
for being behind it? Maybe there's a Russians, maybe there's
a Cubans, there's a mob, right, whoever it was, it
is better to keep that hidden than to allow that
to come out, because then there would have to be
a response. And the only way there couldn't be a
response that's required is if it was a lone gunman.
If it was the CIA, well all hell breaks. If
(29:24):
it was a mob, I mean war between the government
and the mob at that point. If it was Russia
or Cuba, then it's World War three. This dovetails with
your story about the informant being killed by I'll just
say the FBI, because it was necessary to keep whoever
was behind this under wraps.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
So let me throw this stchet from someone who has
done conspiracies, not obviously like this, But.
Speaker 10 (29:48):
You know you didn't kill Kennedy, No, but you were
telling yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
So your operation is only as good as the weakest link.
So if insert whoever it is wants to kill Kennedy,
if who they're going to use, if they're vector, even
if he's not the only guy, let's run with the
grassi and old theory. He's gonna get he's gonna get caught.
And Lee Harvey Oswald, by all accounts, is not a
(30:21):
guy who's going to keep his mouth shut.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
That's for Jack Ruby, because.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, now you're getting into a pretty byzantine conspiracy.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
But if you assume institutions have incentives, is what you're saying.
You're saying each institutions and incentively, if we thought it
was the Russians that might start a war, if we
thought it was the mob, it might start And so
the FBI is saying, Okay, we don't want to do
this because we don't want to start a war with
the mob, and c I just wanted to just want
to start a war with the Russians or whatever.
Speaker 8 (30:46):
That's giving institutions almost like human brains and they're thinking
this thing through.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
But there's a lot of people institutions.
Speaker 8 (30:52):
And they don't always think the same way. And so
there's all kinds of people at low levels who are
getting this kind of stuff, and you're assuming that somehow
they think the same way, Like, yes, if the leadership
got together and said we don't want that to come out,
but I'm I don't care.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
If there's a way with the Russians.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
This is exciting ship, I'm gonna like tell.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Everybody, but I'm gonna tell it. I'm gonna get drunk
and tell my money. So well, who would do that?
Speaker 7 (31:15):
This is the flaw that you guys find with almost
one hundred percent of the conspiracy theories, which is there
are just too many people that would have had to
keep it secret and it would have.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Come out right.
Speaker 7 (31:24):
And Jerry's always saying Occam's razor to all of these things,
and it's it's hard to disagree, although once in a
while it's.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
A is a rule of thumb, which doesn't mean it always.
Speaker 8 (31:35):
Well, the problem is there's probably pieces of this that
don't hold together that people don't want to talk about.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
It leads people down roads and stuff.
Speaker 8 (31:41):
So so yeah, I think there's probably more story than
the clean story. But that whether that means it's a
massive conspiracy?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
So is it?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You've spent a lot of time with the police, right,
if you were gonna kill Kennedy, would you again again?
Would you would you would you put somebody in a
tower where they don't have, you know, a perfect shot.
They got to get it just right, or would you
put it? There's like other ways of doing it much
(32:10):
more ways were like you're more likely to get away absolutely,
like maybe get a better rifle, maybe get a better shot,
maybe get out, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
The poison theory, you know, put a bomb in the road.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
There's a lot of things you can do. And if
I were going to do it, I get a better rifle,
I'd probably get it. If I was wanting to pancy,
I'd get a better better, better pantsy than Oswald I
would put. You know, I would be thinking of like
how am I getting How is he going to get away? Well,
because you want to get.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Away, Yeah, that's the key is you make a plan,
but the plan involves how I get away with it.
But of course the prisoners are all full of guys,
we're idiots.
Speaker 8 (32:47):
Well, yeah, it's funny, like we've seen a number of
recently Indians, the Turks and the Russians now in Europe
had like tried to hire killers to take out people
for them. There's this interesting thing that a lot of
people try to reach out to find hitmen. And I
think law enforcement has been like incredibly successful because essentially
(33:07):
there are no hitmen. People come looking for hitmen, there's
no such thing. But they people start looking for him,
and then they come across law enforcements thing and they're like,
let's watch this guy.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
The Russian guy who killed the dissident in Berlin. His getaway.
He was on a freaking bicycle. So he rode by
and he shot and killed the guy. But everybody saw
it was in broad daylight, and you know what, his
bicycle could not run a police guard right.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Went through.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well I don't know, I mean thinking that this is
a paid Russian.
Speaker 8 (33:45):
But Whattin did then is arrested, A bunch of Americans
held them prisoner and then swapped to get the guy.
Speaker 7 (33:51):
There's always one step ahead that guy and the the.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Indians didn't do a very good job. They got caught
and in Canada and Canada and on other than Michael Flynn,
the National Security Advisor for a couple of days did
talk to he's.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
A frequent target of this podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well he did. He did talk about trying to kidnap
this he today gulan.
Speaker 8 (34:16):
Turkish guy in Pennsylvania that awan the head of Turkey
believes did a big coup against him.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know, even Michael Flynn when he was on the
inside and he was going after al Qaida and Isis
and Iraq, he was effective and efficient and he made
things happen. And well, these guys were his guys, were
his guys were. But you know, he came up with
a shitty planned to try to kidnap a guy out
of the Poconos and didn't work out. For at least
(34:45):
he said he did. John and I never got caught.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
By the way, we're just putting that out.
Speaker 8 (34:50):
It helps not to actually do it.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
But we never got I never got you never got arrested.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I don't think he solved it, But this is this
is great.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Oh it's interesting and now fifty some years later, but
you look back at you you know, maybe something to it,
but again just another theory.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And running operations. I will say that the world is
full of weird coincidences, right, absolutely, It's like coincidences happen
all the time. We're taught we do surveillance detection.
Speaker 8 (35:24):
Once you're out, you're moving, let's you're driving your car
to see a phone's following and you're chosen a route
that you believe you can manipulate someone who might be
tracking you and see.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
What they're there. You're like hyper aware.
Speaker 8 (35:36):
You look around and you realize there's all kinds of
shit that's like there's guys sitting.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
In cars and people in places. Also you're like, oh
my god, what that doesn't make sense?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Why are they doing this? Like why did this part?
Speaker 5 (35:48):
Like all kinds of stuff that doesn't make sense. You
got to work your way through that and find a
way to continue on to it. It's all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Also, I think we all found out an investigation, it's
usually the simple answer. Yeah. In the end, we talked
about these conspiracies and these complicated ways of looking at things,
And in the end, I most investigation goes, of course.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
He did yeah, the butler.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
The butler did it. The butler did it.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I remember one time I broke a rule at CIA.
I was supposed to meet this guy and we're gonna
meet in a certain place, and he was early and
I bumped into him on the street, and we probably
shouldn't have said anything to each other, right, pretending we
didn't know each other, but he didn't, and he looked
at me and said, can we please please just go
(36:30):
for a drink. And now this is in Berlin, where
there are fifteen hundred bars and restaurants and everything like that,
and he says, I just want to have a drink,
you know, just the two USTs, like the old days.
And I'm like, we're both clean. Who's gonna know, right,
I'm like, okay, twenty minutes, I'll meet you at a
certain place at a certain time, like wasn't far away.
(36:51):
And so we went off and we went into this
bacrner of an Irish pub in places a few people in.
It was really big and dark, and we shared a
beer and talked, and then he went back and then
we did our correct meeting. The next day, I went
into work and another officer came over to me and said,
how was your guinness?
Speaker 6 (37:12):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (37:14):
And I'm like.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
And he said, I saw you sitting over in the
corner over there. And I said, was that so and so?
And I'm like, yeah it was. I said, where were you?
He says, I was in another corner with another thing.
I was meeting with selling. Oh my god, we had
two meetings in the same place. Today they are like
twelve hundred.
Speaker 7 (37:37):
Places in the Cold War would have ended sooner up
that was the only really dark Irish Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Well, Dave, it was incredible to hear your story. I'd
love to hear more of your stories. We've we've crossed
in different places.
Speaker 8 (37:52):
Your stories about how different agencies work and don't work
together resonates with us around. I want to thank you
very much much for spending some time with us, and
it's also nice to be together for a change.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Not Worthy.
Speaker 7 (38:05):
Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Seipher,
and Jonathan Stern.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
The associate producer is Rachel Harner.
Speaker 7 (38:14):
Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable
pictures for iHeart Podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Adam Davidson
John Sipher
Jerry O'Shea
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