January 4, 2023 • 46 mins
Mo goes behind the scenes of season 3 of Mobituaries with the host of The Takeout, Major Garrett. They share a delicious meal and dig into the highlights of Mobits’ history and the complexity behind why people and things deserve a second look at their lives. Hear a sneak peek into the upcoming stories of season 3 and Major’s very own recommendation for his ideal Mobit.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi everyone, it's Mo. I'm excited to report that I'll
be sharing brand new Mobituaries starting on January eleven. In
the meantime, i'd like you to hear a special conversation
I recorded with my CBS News colleague and friend Major
Garrett back in November. Major has a terrific podcast called
The Takeout, and as the name would suggest, most episodes
(00:23):
are taped over a meal. For this chat, we dined
together at Trattoria del Arte, across from Carnegie Hall here
in New York City. We talked in depth about season
three of Mobituaries while gnashing on barata and octopus. Actually
I did all the eating, which I feel kind of
bad about. I really don't mind sharing, really, unless it's
(00:44):
a wet dessert. I will not share a wet dessert.
I'm sorry. It is way too intimate. Anyway, I got
to tell Major how some of this season's episodes came
to be. You'll also hear me talk about an episode
of Mobituaries we have coming up later in the month,
the story of Samantha's Math, the ten year old girl
from Maine whose letter to then Soviet premier Eurie and
(01:05):
drop Hop in the nineteen eighties made headlines. Here is
that episode of The Takeout, hosted by CBS News Chief
Washington Correspondent Major Garrett, featuring Me Morocca as his guest
(01:26):
five four three two one. But who's counting right? His
name is Major, Lady and gentleman. Please welcome Major Garrett
from the Nation's capital. Major fantastic. It's the Takeout. This
is a major team with CBS News Chief Washington Correspondent
(01:49):
Major Garrett, s CBS f s Major Garrett. Major, that's nonsense.
Brother is Major out of the dog house answers, Yes,
welcome to the red best part of my broadcast week.
Know we are winding to a close of the year
two and this episode is going to be particularly special
for me because it's about a topic I love. Maybe
(02:09):
it's a topic you love too. It's a podcast, not
this one. There's no podcast I love more than this one.
You know that, my dear friends. But it's very close.
Mobituaries Obituaries is the beautiful, luminous journalistic work of Mo Rocca. Mo.
It's great to see you, thanks for being with you,
(02:29):
and I mean this. It is an amazing achievement. I
love every episode. I immerse myself in every episode and
I am enriched by every episode. I'm just gonna fanboy
on you for like the next forty five minutes. If
that's okay, It is totally fine. And I did bring
my wallet, by the way, unless this is no no,
dinner is always on us here at the take out.
So speaking of that, we are in New York City,
(02:52):
Trotteria del arte. What are you that? For me? Is
that okay? That was like passable? It was great? And
we're gonna talk talk about mobituaries. You're midway through season three.
The second part of season three will start right about
when three starts. For those who may not know about
this wonderful place to find great stories about Americans who've
(03:16):
been slightly overlooked or maybe heavily overlooked. What is the construct?
What is the premise the passion behind mobituaries? So it's
people or things um in uh this season we even
included a fruit uh that um that deserve a second look,
(03:37):
that passed on and didn't get the recognition that I
think they deserved. Um. And then they also what is
that I love that? I love that? How special is
that Morocco? That will be all yours I know because
you saw the dog. Oh that's great. The baratas, and
thank you for writing the anchovies. Barata is nothing without anchovies. Okay, great,
(03:59):
thank you so much. I think very mans is an
indulgent culinary experience entirely from Orocco. I'm guessing you saw
the documentary about the octopus, right that everybody that I
see all the documentaries on octopus. Yeah, and so that's
why I have not I'm waiting to see it until
after I eat this. So it's basically things that I
think deserve a second look that didn't get the send
(04:23):
off they deserved the first time. Or maybe he didn't
get any send off at all. Um So, already this
season we had John Denver uh with names, and I'm
sorry that we didn't include Major, but that would have
been really interesting. Actually, do you know where it ranks major?
Very very low, very very It does not make the
top ten thousand, I don't think ever, but that's been
(04:44):
an advantage for me, so I'm good with that. It
probably is so yeah. So, um So, we looked at
names like Mildred, Bertha and Todd, which um fell off
the map. I was surprised that Todd had fallen off
the map in the early seventies. Um, and uh so
it's been it's been a blast just to kind of
dive into these different topics. And what strikes me about
(05:05):
this second look process is in some instances the subject
matter got a look like John Denver, for example, John
Denver in his time well as a sensation, and the
treatment of at this time was He's different than the
caricature or the popular understanding of what John Denver was. Well,
(05:28):
you know, I don't know if you remember this, and look,
it might have just been in my own little tiny
corner of the world. But when he died and I didn't,
we didn't mention this in the podcast, but I remember
a lot of like really snarky jokes about him, and
it was sort of the same way as a child
(05:48):
that I remembered when Elvis died. The very first time
I heard the word loser was on the playground at
Woodacre's Elementary School in Bethesda, Maryland, and Elvis had died,
I guess in the summer. And when I came was
showed up in August. Yeah, in third grade, and somebody
mentioned Elvis and this girl said he was a loser,
and oh, yeah, and exactly right, no, exactly and but
(06:11):
but John Denver had come to this place where he'd
sort of become a punch line, and and so I thought, well,
that's this is rich because I'm not the only one
telling Alexa to play John Denver's Greatest Heads. A lot
of people are doing this. And Kurt Cobain apparently when
he grew up, his mother only had one album in
the house and it was the John Denverus Greatest Heads,
(06:33):
and he listened to it over and over again. And
I was probably morocc is sympathetic to that retelling of
the John Denver story because I think that's what's going
to happen when Neil Diamond dies. And I'm a huge
Neil Diamond fan and not apologetic Neil Diamond fan. I
believe he is an exceptional songwriter. His latter part of
his career is a little bit kitchier than the first
part of his career, but I think he's a substantial
(06:54):
member of the American song book, and he's not treated
that way. He's not regarded that way. And I think
when whatever that day comes, it will be a sequined
reference and a lot of ribbing of people on the
in the side. Well, that guy was really kind of
just a low level entertainer. Not true. Yeah, I agree
with that. What I mean people at ben Way would
(07:14):
what right, Caroline, Yeah, but but but also just regard
that as like a baseball song. No, it's actually a
really good song in itself. Well, I think you're I
think this is what happens. It seems like with a
lot of really really um mass appeal entertainers. And of
course it's foolish, like the audience is smart. They attach
(07:34):
themselves to something for a good reason. People punched through
not by accident, and the process of a mobituary is
too tell the story of a person's life in the
context of the times in which they lived in not
are modern times, because some of the issues and some
of the people are viewed maybe more harshly now than
(07:57):
they were in the time in which they lived, or
they were subject to pressures unlike the pressures they would
face now. Back in season two, there's a tribute to
really one of the greatest entertainers ever, Sammy Davis Jr. Right,
And that story is about his time, his struggles and
how he moved through them. Yeah, I think it's I
(08:18):
mean I'd like to try to go back and and
and help the audience understand how the person was received
in their time. I mean, obviously there's a point of view,
So I mean, I can't if it would be a
cheat for me to say, oh, we're not judging them
by contemporary standards, it's not true. But I also don't
(08:39):
want to look when we did Latin Lovers in the
first half of this season Valentino, Roman Navarro, Fernando Lamas.
You know, Valentino is a hundred years before me too, Okay,
And so I get it these a lot of these
movies haven't dated well. Um, but of movie goers were
women at the time, and he was created by men.
(09:00):
I mean, the matinee Idol was created by women who
at that time, you know, that's what they wanted. And
so I didn't feel like digging up women that have
been dead for seventy and eighty years and putting them
on trial. I mean, for like what they liked. I
think it's you know, it's it's sort of this is
what was at the time, and of course, you know,
(09:20):
we add a little bit of like my viewpoint on it.
But I'm interested in what created this phenomena at the time.
Why why people were literally killing themselves when he died,
because there was such hysteria. And tastes are tastes, and
one of the ways to understand how a culture evolves
is to understand tastes of a different era. Totally, yes,
(09:42):
And if you don't understand the taste of a different area,
you can't mark yourself and how things have changed. And
one of the ways of appreciating and sort of quantifying
change and evolution is, well, what were the taste back then?
And why how do we get here? And also, I
don't think I don't think most people are that judgmental anyway.
(10:06):
I don't think most place senior. Oh, that's so terrible.
I mean, there is a there is a sort of
self defined judgment or judgmental industrial complex, but most people
are not a member of it. That's hysterical. The judgmental
industrial complex is perfect, that's perfect. Yeah, if it most
people don't count themselves in that, and they want to know. Like,
(10:26):
for example, going back to John Denver, I didn't realize
until I listened, not only didn't he have a successful
songwriting career, but and we'll talk more about this on
the other side of the break. Uh, he had one
of the most watched Christmas specials in the history of
broadcast television. Yes, yes, I mean it's not it's it's
(10:47):
it's not quite the level of say my podcast or yours.
Sixty five million people tuned in to the Rocky Mountain
Christmas Special in and you know when I found it.
You can find it on YouTube to but don't. I'm
not sure it's supposed to be there, but it's um
it is. And you know, you and I are not
far apart in age, and so you can smell the
(11:09):
seventies just by listening to this thing. It is so
evocative of kind of a weird sort of one kind
of energy, you know, John Denver, it's sort of There
are scenes of nature. There's um flying a slow most
shot of a flying squirrel. There's a sequence on the
life's life cycle of the brook trout. And we're gonna
(11:29):
hold on the brook trout and all the other scenery
because we need to go to break. Do we have
brook Trout coming by the way, because Garrett Segment two
of the takeout coming up intil a second from CBS News.
(11:51):
This is the takeout with Major Garrett Welcome back to
segment two of the Takeout Trotta del Arte in Midtown Manhattan.
Our special guest Rocca and I am just gonna fanboy
for the next forty minutes because it's about mobituaries. It's
about this phenomenal podcast that grew out of your work
on CBS Sunday Morning, and this gathering of information, observation
(12:18):
and archival sound that brings to life people who deserve
a second look. And we'll get back to the John
Denver Christmas Special from a second. But you are the
editorial agent of control over who gets the second look,
are you not? Yeah? I mean, I don't know. I
don't know if you feel this way too. I just
feel like I've learned to trust my gut. I don't
(12:39):
want that in a leader necessarily, but like for editorial,
you know, if something gets me in the gut. I
think there's something about, say John Denver that and I
mentioned this in the podcast. I was this is going
to be a name drop. But I participated in a
reading that a friend put on a playwright and Julianne
(12:59):
Moore was there and she sat right next to me.
It was really cool, and and my friend was being
very nice and said, oh, Julianne, you have to listen
to most podcast in obituaries. He explained what it was,
and she said, who do you have coming up? And
I said John Denver and she like she melted, She
went John Denver and and she like was it's sort
(13:21):
of like she stepped into a time machine right there
and went back and and was just exhaled and and
uh um. And I think that there's something that makes people.
He's what I call an undervalued stock. And I think
there are people like that that they're sitting somewhere in
the back of our minds, and then if you bring
them up, people go, oh my god, that's right. I
(13:41):
loved that person. And if you can find those are
people that I'm always kind of like, who who is
a person like that? And go back to the Christmas Special?
So did you say sixty eight million people watch this?
Six that is? So this is remember Dais and gentle
let's just go back in the way back machine with
Mr Peabody. Yeah. So broadcast television back then was a
(14:04):
mass audience structure. Three networks that were not a lot
of choices were streaming alternatives. There weren't cable alternatives. But
still it was highly competitive because of that intense segmented
So if you pulled sixty eight million, you were literally
pulling ten million viewers from two other networks at that hour.
It is Listen, you're absolutely right when people say, oh,
(14:26):
there were only three networks. Okay, that's fine, but also
the country was also significantly smaller. Okay, the country had
I think probably you know, like two competitive zeal to
grab a million viewers, let alone ten million from another
network was off the chart. Yeah. And so when you
watch this thing, it's I mean, it's very weirdly seventies.
He's and basically he's like basically in a snow globe
(14:47):
and a biosphere that they've built for him in the rockies,
and he's got like grow eas and greenies as he
calls him. Inside. He has all this plant life inside
um and UM at the whole thing. I'm not surprised.
Imagine hanging Macromay baskets are probably in there somewhere. And
(15:08):
he's got the biggest stars of the day. He's got
Steve Martin in his Wild and Crazy Guy, UM period
and and Um, Valerie Harper, Olivia Newton, John Um and
he just sort of sings songs. There's kind of a
it's cheerful, but there's also something kind of wand and
sort of seventies about it. And think about the psyche
(15:30):
collectively of the country. Nine the bi centennial year. But
we're coming off Vietnam. We're wondering about what what America
means after two hundred years. We are still dealing with
the after effects of the civil rights movement, campus riots,
all of those things. Watergate is just right in the
rear view mirror. And this idea of almost like this
(15:51):
snow globe commune ye yep, sitting in the middle of
living rooms across America found a place of traction psychically,
I think people if you look at it and you
think people just needed a break, people just needed a break.
And even the way everyone in the audience shots, the
(16:12):
reaction shots, I mean there's a there's a I wouldn't
say a like quality to it, but everyone looks mildly sedated,
like and so everyone's ballly um, it's like a very
like that crowd and uhum, and everyone sort of naturally attractive,
like no one seems to be wearing makeup, none of
(16:32):
the women and so um, and he's sort of strumming
his guitar and they're having a sing along. Um And
one of the things I love about the Mobituaries about
John Denver. And I promise we'll get onto other parts
of Mobituary Season three. But I found this deeply meaningful
to me because I had sort of overlooked John Denver
until recently got the greatest hits on my iTunes. And
(16:54):
we all remember, I certainly remember the time Rocky Mountain
High having a kind of hilarious end joke Rocky Mountain High,
everyone stone, that's not what the song is about. And
the first three stands of that song, I urged my
audience go back and listen to it. It is beautiful,
evocative life journey writing. It really is. And I mean yeah,
(17:19):
And he went and he testified in fact, but during
the um Parents Music Research Council, right the tipper Goore
hearings that what are commonly known as that and and said,
you know, my song was not was not about that.
It seems almost quaint now because no one would care
today if they thought it then. And it was sort
of like an allegation against it, like a celebration of
(17:41):
sitting around a campfire just getting stoned and that's all
that's all American youth could do, and how terrible that was,
and we ought to do something about that. Arms Akind
Absolutely No, it was his. It was his reaction to
seeing the the parased meteor shower from twelve thousand feet
up in the Rockies and how beautiful that was. Damn
exactly exactly. Um, how is it that people like John Denver?
(18:07):
And I imagine you've thought about this because you're saying
this person deserves a second look? Have you ever come
to a unified theory about why they didn't get the
good look the first time? M Um? Well, I think
it's probably different in every case. I think for John Denver,
I do think that he would have been recognized more
(18:27):
had he lived longer. And you know what you know,
as you know one of the in the podcast Bill
flan Again it was a great music writer, and I
talked about how today he might be Dolly Partner. He
might have been Dolly Partner, this enduring person of with
a with a great songbook that is a touchdowe for
lots of people over many generations. Yeah, I think so.
(18:48):
And I don't know what the statistics are, but I
bet that the number of times his songs are played
would probably surprise a lot of us, like how they're
still played. So, um, yeah, I think you would be
a figure like that. And uh so I'm not, I'm not,
I'm not sure. It's it's a it's I think it's
different every time. So who is Mr and Mrs Smith
(19:09):
And why did they rate a mobituary? Well? Mr and
Mrs Smith rated him obituary because actually the producer of
that episode, um Zoe Marcus, had sent long ago an
image of a Time magazine cover from seven Um that
simply says Mr and Mrs Smith an interracial marriage. And
I remember being struck that I had not known the
(19:32):
story that Dean Rusk, the Georgia Democrat who was um
the Secretary of State under Kennedy and and LBJ, that
his daughter, who was white, married a black man in
seven and that that would have been put on the
cover of Time magazine. And and one of the details
really jumped out at me that Dean Rusk, her father,
(19:53):
had offered his resignation to the president because he was
worried that the publicity around it would comprom eyes, you know,
crucial Southern support and Congress for the president's agenda on
like a civil rights in Vietnam. But um that one
marriage could be so galvanized as to possibly jeopardize the
(20:14):
political prospects of a president of the United States. Right.
But what also kind of captivated me was the idea
of this young couple in love who end up on
the cover of Time magazine and then are completely forgotten,
which they were very happy about. They retired, They moved
as young people to central Virginia and raised horses all
their lives. I mean, she was Peggy Rusk of the
(20:37):
daughter of the Secretary of State, was not like a
did not aspire to be a Washington doyenne or social climber.
She just had no interest in that. She found this guy,
fell in love, they married, and they just wanted to
get away from it all and be with horses, which
is how they met. And why is nineteen sixty seven
a particularly important year because it ends up being this
year where it starts with um loving versus Virginia and
(20:59):
the unanim mis ruling and um uh that struck down
bands in sixteen states against mixed race marriages. And then
you have this marriage in the middle, and then you
have guests Who's coming to dinner? Um, huge box office
success at the end of that year. And then there's
a little detail that I thought was really interesting that
(21:20):
Sidney pot I'm gonna hold you right there because that
interesting detail is a perfect segue and a grabber for
the next segment of the Takeout, And that's what Rocca
is doing. And the broados here and I'm Major Garrett
back for more of our deeply enjoyable conversation about Mobituary
season three here on the Takeout from CBS News. This
(21:52):
is the Takeout with Major Garrett. Welcome back. This is
not a rhetorical question. How delightful is it to spend
the end of twenty two in the presence of Mo
Rocca in downtown Midtown, New York. It's spectacular. I told
you it was not a rhetorical question. Our subject matter
is Mo Rocca. Of course, Mobituaries. Midway through season three, UM,
we're talking about Mr and Mrs Smith. One of the
(22:14):
things I found very interesting about that episode is Dean
Rusk's daughter, who becomes Mrs Smith, doesn't really think much
of guests Who's coming to dinner? The movie which wasn't,
as you said, a box office sensation then and is
regarded as one of these turning point movies of its time,
(22:35):
and people who watch it now find great inspiration, substance, emotion,
and a kind of clarity in it. But that didn't
really land that way with her. It sounded like to me,
you know, it didn't. And I found her as a
character so interesting because she was and and I'm sure
when you encounter this, i'd like, I'm guessing you're happy
(22:57):
about it. She's like someone who's never watching TV because
she doesn't have the cadence of a TV interviewee. She
just answers like she'll sometimes do like one word answers
and she talks like a normal person. I'm like, what
are you doing? Why are you being so normal? Like
you're supposed to talk like people do on TV and
give these answers. You're just to give me the answers
(23:19):
I'm expecting, what is wrong here? No, it's so and
but what I what What I also found sort of
inspiring is kind of she had this clarity that she
was in love with this guy and that's all that matters.
She wasn't really I was sort of taken aback when
she says she wasn't following the Supreme Court case. Now,
that's probably because she was in a state where she
(23:40):
was in the district of Columbia and she was gonna
get married in California. There wasn't going to be an
issue there in were protected. Yeah, but but but she wasn't.
She just says, look, I don't know what to tell you.
I wasn't doing this to make a cultural impact or
make a political point. I was doing it because I
was in love. And when I interviewed the great entertainer
Leslie Ulghams, who married a white man an Austar alien
(24:00):
two years before in she sort of said the same thing, like,
you know, when you're in love with somebody, you're not
really thinking about the social issue aspect of it. I mean,
you know, and that's maybe one of the ways, you know,
it's really deep and abiding for them, right, because they're
(24:20):
not distracted by all these other things. They just know
what they are, who they are, and what it means
to be together, right, And there's a abject beauty to
that mm hmm. Completely, it's so pure, and then it's
it's sort of plainness and ordinariness. It seems to me
as I was listening felt extraordinary. Yeah, well, I'm glad
(24:44):
you feel that way. Thank you, and uh and thank her.
But it's um, and I hope that that's why it's
that that people that it's landing with a lot of
people who are sick of everything, every personal story becoming
news becoming a political story necessarily because it doesn't. It
just doesn't, it doesn't fit it that neatly. And if
(25:08):
you allow me, well, I'd like to reach back to
season two, uh to talk about Sammy Davis Jr. Um,
because some in this audience may not have a real memory. Uh,
Sammy Davis Jr. You have to be a person at
a certain age like you and I are you. And
I grew up watching Sammy on television and even then
I knew he was amazing, but I didn't know until
I listened to the show how highly he was regarded
(25:33):
by the superstars of his time. Yeah, he really was.
When he was at Ciro's nightclub in Los Angeles, I
mean people, everyone wanted to get in and see him perform.
And he was quite young then. He was primarily a
dancer then and uh, um and part of a nightclub
act with his father and part of the will Maston trio. Um.
(25:54):
But even then, you know, people were fighting to get
in and see this this masterful performer. And then he
lost his eye and he came back from that. But
part of why I wanted to do him just because
not just my admiration and affection and call it death
of an entertainer, is because entertainer the word. Sometimes people
are a little kind of I think it sounds a
(26:16):
little cheeseball, but they're dismissive it, right. But to be
a capital e entertainer like that, um, that's really special.
To be somebody who performs, you know, in Vegas and
then goes back to his hotel room and does the
whole act again with lizam and Ellie because they both
just love performing. That's like, that's a certain drive and
(26:37):
an energy that that we all are great should be
grateful for to have that person in our lives. And
there's a theme in that mobituary that I think is
also important because looking back at entertainers of that era,
So in the TV era who made it big, they
came out of vaudeville, which was a place that demanded
(26:59):
not just one talent. You could not be successful in
vaudeville as a single talent entertainer. No, I mean he
was sort of a quintuple threat. I guess, actor, singer, dancer.
He had the gun spinning routine, which was really amazing. Uh.
He was also a really great impressionist, and he was
also groundbreaking impressionist because he was a black impressionist, um,
(27:19):
imitating white actors. But and when he did that in
the army after being physically beaten regularly, you know, because
he was part of the first wave of integrated forces. Um,
he was so good that that even like the abusive
white you know, soldiers who would bullied him and worse,
you know, we're like, whoa, this guy is really special.
(27:42):
And one other theme that comes through subtly. But I
think it's important because it's a hallmark of people who
are successful in times when their success is harder than
the people they are around. There was a tenacity to Sammy. Yeah,
they're yeah, there there was. There was, there was a
(28:02):
tenacity he kept going. And I think also there's something, Um,
I find something. I actually, weirdly enough, was thinking a
little bit of Ellen DeGeneres when I was doing this,
because I remember when I profiled her that she said,
you know, I just want to make people laugh. I
(28:23):
just want to be an entertainer. And she sort of
got caught up in one point in politics and having
you know, and she she she was okay being an advocate,
but what she really wanted to do was entertained and
that's kind of Sammy Davis Jr. And by the way,
Sammy Davis Jr. Went and launched it Selma. He was
on the march on Washington and I think Harry Belafonte
(28:44):
even said at one point, I don't understand why Sammy
Davis Jr. Doesn't get credit for that, and it's seen
as somebody who sort of shirked that, which he didn't.
But maybe it's because he was so first and foremost
an entertainer and loved doing that. There might be one answer.
It's referred to in the episode. I remember it in
my household growing up when he endorsed Richard Nixon, and
(29:05):
that maybe one reason. That was a moment from my
Republican Paris right. I'm seriously it was. It was a
moment and they said, see Richard Nixon must be fine.
This this this amazing. We did not use the terminology
African American at the time, this amazing black American has
endorsed Richard Nixon. Good enough for Sammy, good enough for
(29:28):
us even Yeah, it was a moment. And you mentioned
in the episode that there was a little bit of hey,
what are you doing among white liberals and maybe some
in the civil rights community, you know, there was And
then he this great speech was a push conference. I
am who I am right, Yeah, I'm a black man
in American I've made a choice, right and and and
(29:50):
it was and I really loved talking to Willie Brown
about that, who is, by the way, just one of
the greatest interviews ever. So he talked about an individual
y mean and as sharp an observer and uh, he
has to pick up on something you said earlier, a
gut sense of politics that is very very good, very
very sharp, always has and he had sort of a
(30:15):
three sixty view of Sammy. He really did. And he
also really pushed back at the notion that Sammy might
have been deficient because he was so much about entertainment.
He was like, no, he's a great cook. He was,
you know, a film lover. He was a really sophisticated
guy and a great host. So it was I loved
hearing his perspective. So when we think about, because we're
(30:38):
going to be anticipating in a lot of different ways,
what should we think about, what can you set the
table at for coming up from obituaries in the second
part of season three, Well, I really wanted to tell
the story of Samantha Smith, whom you probably remember, but
an astonishing number of people have forgotten that. In this
(30:59):
young girl from Jane, she wasn't connected. She wrote a
letter like how many kids were kept awake at night
during the eighties and seventies. I'm sure terrified that the
world was going to be blown up, right, that the
Soviet Union in America would trade you know, I CBMs
and and uh and she wrote a letter to Eurie
(31:24):
drop LP and with that another teaser. At the top
of his game, Always at the top of his game,
I Major Garrett. That's Morocco. Stay tuned for segment four
because that's a great teaser. When we get back from
(31:47):
CBS News, this is the takeout with Major Garrett. Always
fantastic to be in New York City. Even better when
I get to sit down for meal with Morocca. So, Mo,
you were talking about a letter, Well, right, do you
remember towards the end of the Soviet Union, there were
like a succession of really scary ghoules at the top. Right,
(32:07):
it went, it went, the Supreme Soviet it went well,
it went Breshnev and drop Up in Chernienko, Right, those
are the three. I mean, Breshnev had been there a
long time. But but and drop Up was like like
particularly a caricature of a scary guy because he'd run
the KGB right and uh and um. And so this girl,
(32:28):
Samantha Smith wrote this letter saying, you know, why do
you want to blow up the world basically, and he
wrote her back. The letter was published in propta um
and said, you know, we don't want that, and um,
you know people all over the world are the same
blah blah blah blah blah, and come visit the Soviet Union.
And so she went, and CBS and News covered the
hell out of it. It was a very big deal.
(32:51):
But what I found, um in previous seasons of the
podcast is people under a certain age really not that
much younger than me, but had no clue. And one
of the producers said, no, you this, You've got to
do this episode because no one I'm telling you, no
millennials know this story at all, not only all of
that story, but have any sense of And you mentioned
(33:13):
this before we went to break and it might have
struck people. What the terror terror, the psychic heaviness that
came with the Cold War, And in the seventies and eighties,
almost once a month there was a story written about
the ever enlarging stockpiles of nuclear weapons and how many
times over one side or another could obliterate Planet Earth.
(33:36):
That was heavy, It was real, and it weighed on
you every single day. It weighed on you. And and
so when I hear about kids who have climate anxiety,
I take that seriously. When I hear that, like kids
have trouble sleeping because they're worried that the planet is
going to be destroyed, and um, you know that the
cities and places where they live will be submerged by
the oceans. And I thought that's what it was that
(33:59):
I can sort of felt existential. It felt existential. And
I had two fears at that time myself as an adolescent,
that the world would be destroyed by nuclear attack, and
that Broadway was just not economically viable as a model,
and that by the time I moved to New York,
there would be no you know, Broadway. So those two
things were the we're really weighing on me. Uh, Samantha
(34:21):
Smith did nothing for the Broadway community, I'm sure you know,
but thankfully it's still here, still here and going strong.
But but she did, she did something remarkable. And she
was a kid, an ordinary kid, and and the trip
there was really interesting because she that was not easy
to comport herself the way she did, and so that
(34:41):
story has been really interesting to tell. So one of
the things that I find so enjoyable about obituaries is
not only is it a second look, but it's a
closer look at the first two lines of the original obituary,
if you will, Because everyone who who achieves some level
of notoriety, this is true, ladies and gentlemen, I've done it.
(35:05):
You wonder, all right, when I die, what's the first
or second line going to be about me? Anyone who
denies that is not being honest with themselves, and they're
not being honest with you, Okay. And so you look
at that lead and you say, is that true? Yes?
But or did that completely miss it or miss it
(35:27):
by more than it should have? It seems to me
that's one of the exercises you go through in the process. Well,
I appreciate that because I hadn't thought of it in
those terms, but I'd like to think that that's what
we are doing with it. I hope so. Um, I
think you're right. It is interesting to see what that
little is it in a positive I forget what the
grammatical term for it is. But you know, Joe Schmo
(35:50):
Calma died today, he was sixty eight or whatever. Exactly
exactly what is that thing that is the essence? Yeah,
what is the contemporary essence of this person? Maybe right,
maybe incomplete, maybe more wrong than right. And it seems
to me that's one of the things you're trying to excavate. Yeah,
(36:10):
And and look that changes with I mean different eras,
because you know, a while back, when Jerry Jerry Lee
Lewis died, some of the the I could see that
some of the o bits were balancing his legendary career
as a rock and roller with his personal life in
trying to smush it in there. You know, in earlier
(36:32):
era would not have worried about the personal side. I'm
not saying one is right and one is wrong. What
is that is there? Oh, thank you so much. That's fine,
that's fine. Actually no, it's not. But it is a
break in the video action, which is which is what
when Midtown Manhattan it's a functioning, moving wine indulgent restaurants.
(36:55):
So that's great. This is not a rehearsal to say,
that's the kids saying right yeah, And it's not a
drill without they saying and it's uh an appraisal plus more.
And what do you find about the podcast space that
gives you that elbow room? Well, I think certainly the
(37:17):
space the time you know that you can take, which
I don't you know, I don't want to abuse that.
You know, sometimes on streaming shows you think, well, you know,
maybe it could have used a commercially a network exactly
telling you sorry, five episodes, not a yeah exactly, you know,
forty minutes, not seventy like you didn't need that, and
uh um. But I think there's there's a room for that.
(37:41):
I also think, you know, probably sometimes for intense interviews,
not you know, showing up with just a microphone, people
will open up a little bit of that question without question.
I think so. And one of the things that I
find and you will probably feel humble about this in
a way that I don't intend, like, oh, major, what
are you saying that for? You have convening authority, there
(38:01):
are people who will talk to you that enlarge this
project and these and these concepts. It feels to me, well,
I hope so, I mean, that's that is nice of
you to say that, and I hope so. I hope
as people listen to more episodes or or see interviews
that they like that I've done, um, that it will
make them more open to it. I know with you know,
with John Denver that there was a lot of protectiveness
(38:23):
around him and I thought, all right, you know, um,
but but who's who is the leading character of that episode?
His ex wife Annie? Yeah, and and that that had
to take some doing it did I think she needed
to know that this was not this was coming from
I know it sounds corny, but from a place of
(38:44):
love and it is it is which you know, Um,
that's there. There's a way, you know, from a place
of love to get too to make discoveries. And in
the last minute or so, we have mode. It feels
also that one of the things you want to help
people understand is that there is an American story. It
(39:04):
has lots of characters, there are lots of complexities to it,
and we should spend some time with it. Yeah, um, yes,
uh and um yeah, and I want to tell more
of those stories. And well, I mean yeah, because I
really like America and I and think there are a
(39:26):
lot of great stories and there are a lot of
things to be happy and proud about, and uh, you know,
and and um there are a lot of heroes and
uh you know, I don't want it to be hokey
and um, but uh sure, I mean that. I hope
there are many more episodes that we can keep telling
(39:46):
stories about people who overcame struggles and achieved great things
in part because they were here. So Jamie Benson, who
was behind the camera with us this episode and running
audio and who was an integral part of article and
has been part of my success in the debrief in
the take out for the better part of six years,
(40:07):
had an idea and you latched onto it. So let's
roll with this a little basis major Why don't you
think of a possible mobituary? Can I suggest one? Please?
Kurt Flood? Who's Kurt Flood? Beautiful? Beautiful beautiful. I'm already intrigued.
Kurt Flood played major League baseball. He played Major League
(40:29):
baseball for the St. Louis Cardinals. He was an All
Star outfielder African American. Kurt Flood went to federal court
to challenge the reserve clause, which was something that existed
in Major League Baseball until Kurt Flood came along. What
was the reserve clause? It said, every Major League baseball
(40:50):
team reserved the right to keep you on their roster
until they changed their mind. You could never opt out
of your contract for the perpetuity of your major league career.
Kurt Flood said that disabled him and every other Major
League baseball player from their rights to test their value
among other teams. Kurt Flood went to federal court one
(41:12):
his case and began the era of free agency. So
that's how we got free agency. I had no idea.
I had no idea. Well, I'm instantly drawn to it.
Also because I know how Cardinal fans are just so
fur fan and which makes the best baseball fans in
the country. I've been to many baseball games in St. Louis,
and they know the game. They are deeply appreciative and
(41:35):
Missouri has a complicated history in our country sure with
with race relations dating all the way back to to
pre Civil War times. Um, the dread Scott case originates
in part in Missouri. Kurt Flood is an enormously important
part of the American story and the assertion of rights
and the searching for rights. In a different context athletics,
(41:59):
but was in enormously important to the game we see
before us today. That right, So that that's that's that's
one suggestion. Um what else he got? We got a
lot of We got seasons to fill a more material Now, Uh,
this this can't happen yet because he's still with us.
(42:22):
But when the day comes, and I hope it's not soon,
I believe Jerry Brown would deserve an examination for his
multi decade career in politics that has more twists and
turns than I think anyone comparable. Well, and also Jerry Brown,
(42:42):
I mean at one point he went and worked in
Calcutto with mother Teresa. I mean, he's had a really
contrascinating life, and he was this Roman candle in American
politics early in his career, and he's very reflective about
the mistakes he made and the Hubris that came with
it then, And this is one of the things that
I'm drawn to, not ideologically, not because of party, but
(43:03):
because of I believe people who will stay in the
arena deserve appraisal. You're staying in the arena because it's
not easy to stay in the arena. He was very
high and then he went back and became a mayor
in a very tough stay to be in Oakland, way
up high, back down low, and then served and understood,
(43:24):
and he learned more about being a good leader and
being a good deliverer of services to a community than
he rose to attorney general. Then he became governor again
and ushered California into its sort of modern future. I
just think he is someone who spands decades and isn't
(43:45):
rigid in any of those particular decades. And I love
that that he went from governor to being mayor and
reminds me a little bit of John Quincy Adams going
from president to a house rap and that being his
happiest time actually as a house rap and uh um
and uh and and didn't Jerry Brown dated deper Winger also,
so he's Linda Ronda Ronstad. Sorry, Bob Kerry dated deper
(44:07):
winger winger. I don't want to do that to different winger,
but anyway, everything dated, No, no, no, uh the uh
um yeah, Linda ron Stadt of course, but yeah, no,
he's what an interesting life. Well, we wish him well,
We wish you well, Jerry absolutely absolutely. I'm not, yeah,
prematurizing that, if that's even a word, But I do
(44:27):
think there is something worth saying about Jerry Brown because
he occupies the difference and and he is an embodiment
of the seventies in a certain way, a caricature of
that time. And you either stuck with that are you
mature it out of it? And I think that journey
is is interesting. Can you know how far we've fallen?
I remember when he was in the primary against Phil
was the first presidential campaign I covered, Okay, and I
(44:49):
remember listening to W A. M U. I think it
was still called there and Diane Ream and somebody called
up and went, well, Governor Moonbeam, and then she went
and she went, we do not insult people on this show,
and she made the caller apologize. And how far we
fall in because now everyone just insults each other all
the time. But then that was your authenticity to insult.
(45:13):
I'm authentic and I don't insult. I'm Major Garrett Morocco.
What a pleasure, thanks man, and you're not. And I'm
eating anchovies and you're not insulting me. I mean because
I'm not touching a mom, not today, not ever. That's it,
ladies and down. When we'll see you next week. The
Takeout is produced by Arden Farie, Jamie Benson, Sarah Cook,
Ellie Watson, Jake Rosen, and Ashley Armstrong. CBSN production by
(45:37):
Eric Susanin. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at
Takeout Podcast. That's at Takeout podcast, and for more go
to Takeout podcast dot com. The Takeout is a production
of CBS News. I hope you enjoyed listening to this
(45:57):
episode of The Takeout with Major Garrett, a weekly podcast
from CBS News. If you like what you heard, may
I ask you to follow The take Out. Just like Mobituaries,
It's available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or altogether Now wherever
you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week with
more new episodes from season three of Mobituaries.
Hi everyone, it's Mo. I'm excited to report that I'll
be sharing brand new Mobituaries starting on January eleven. In
the meantime, i'd like you to hear a special conversation
I recorded with my CBS News colleague and friend Major
Garrett back in November. Major has a terrific podcast called
The Takeout, and as the name would suggest, most episodes
(00:23):
are taped over a meal. For this chat, we dined
together at Trattoria del Arte, across from Carnegie Hall here
in New York City. We talked in depth about season
three of Mobituaries while gnashing on barata and octopus. Actually
I did all the eating, which I feel kind of
bad about. I really don't mind sharing, really, unless it's
(00:44):
a wet dessert. I will not share a wet dessert.
I'm sorry. It is way too intimate. Anyway, I got
to tell Major how some of this season's episodes came
to be. You'll also hear me talk about an episode
of Mobituaries we have coming up later in the month,
the story of Samantha's Math, the ten year old girl
from Maine whose letter to then Soviet premier Eurie and
(01:05):
drop Hop in the nineteen eighties made headlines. Here is
that episode of The Takeout, hosted by CBS News Chief
Washington Correspondent Major Garrett, featuring Me Morocca as his guest
(01:26):
five four three two one. But who's counting right? His
name is Major, Lady and gentleman. Please welcome Major Garrett
from the Nation's capital. Major fantastic. It's the Takeout. This
is a major team with CBS News Chief Washington Correspondent
(01:49):
Major Garrett, s CBS f s Major Garrett. Major, that's nonsense.
Brother is Major out of the dog house answers, Yes,
welcome to the red best part of my broadcast week.
Know we are winding to a close of the year
two and this episode is going to be particularly special
for me because it's about a topic I love. Maybe
(02:09):
it's a topic you love too. It's a podcast, not
this one. There's no podcast I love more than this one.
You know that, my dear friends. But it's very close.
Mobituaries Obituaries is the beautiful, luminous journalistic work of Mo Rocca. Mo.
It's great to see you, thanks for being with you,
(02:29):
and I mean this. It is an amazing achievement. I
love every episode. I immerse myself in every episode and
I am enriched by every episode. I'm just gonna fanboy
on you for like the next forty five minutes. If
that's okay, It is totally fine. And I did bring
my wallet, by the way, unless this is no no,
dinner is always on us here at the take out.
So speaking of that, we are in New York City,
(02:52):
Trotteria del arte. What are you that? For me? Is
that okay? That was like passable? It was great? And
we're gonna talk talk about mobituaries. You're midway through season three.
The second part of season three will start right about
when three starts. For those who may not know about
this wonderful place to find great stories about Americans who've
(03:16):
been slightly overlooked or maybe heavily overlooked. What is the construct?
What is the premise the passion behind mobituaries? So it's
people or things um in uh this season we even
included a fruit uh that um that deserve a second look,
(03:37):
that passed on and didn't get the recognition that I
think they deserved. Um. And then they also what is
that I love that? I love that? How special is
that Morocco? That will be all yours I know because
you saw the dog. Oh that's great. The baratas, and
thank you for writing the anchovies. Barata is nothing without anchovies. Okay, great,
(03:59):
thank you so much. I think very mans is an
indulgent culinary experience entirely from Orocco. I'm guessing you saw
the documentary about the octopus, right that everybody that I
see all the documentaries on octopus. Yeah, and so that's
why I have not I'm waiting to see it until
after I eat this. So it's basically things that I
think deserve a second look that didn't get the send
(04:23):
off they deserved the first time. Or maybe he didn't
get any send off at all. Um So, already this
season we had John Denver uh with names, and I'm
sorry that we didn't include Major, but that would have
been really interesting. Actually, do you know where it ranks major?
Very very low, very very It does not make the
top ten thousand, I don't think ever, but that's been
(04:44):
an advantage for me, so I'm good with that. It
probably is so yeah. So, um So, we looked at
names like Mildred, Bertha and Todd, which um fell off
the map. I was surprised that Todd had fallen off
the map in the early seventies. Um, and uh so
it's been it's been a blast just to kind of
dive into these different topics. And what strikes me about
(05:05):
this second look process is in some instances the subject
matter got a look like John Denver, for example, John
Denver in his time well as a sensation, and the
treatment of at this time was He's different than the
caricature or the popular understanding of what John Denver was. Well,
(05:28):
you know, I don't know if you remember this, and look,
it might have just been in my own little tiny
corner of the world. But when he died and I didn't,
we didn't mention this in the podcast, but I remember
a lot of like really snarky jokes about him, and
it was sort of the same way as a child
(05:48):
that I remembered when Elvis died. The very first time
I heard the word loser was on the playground at
Woodacre's Elementary School in Bethesda, Maryland, and Elvis had died,
I guess in the summer. And when I came was
showed up in August. Yeah, in third grade, and somebody
mentioned Elvis and this girl said he was a loser,
and oh, yeah, and exactly right, no, exactly and but
(06:11):
but John Denver had come to this place where he'd
sort of become a punch line, and and so I thought, well,
that's this is rich because I'm not the only one
telling Alexa to play John Denver's Greatest Heads. A lot
of people are doing this. And Kurt Cobain apparently when
he grew up, his mother only had one album in
the house and it was the John Denverus Greatest Heads,
(06:33):
and he listened to it over and over again. And
I was probably morocc is sympathetic to that retelling of
the John Denver story because I think that's what's going
to happen when Neil Diamond dies. And I'm a huge
Neil Diamond fan and not apologetic Neil Diamond fan. I
believe he is an exceptional songwriter. His latter part of
his career is a little bit kitchier than the first
part of his career, but I think he's a substantial
(06:54):
member of the American song book, and he's not treated
that way. He's not regarded that way. And I think
when whatever that day comes, it will be a sequined
reference and a lot of ribbing of people on the
in the side. Well, that guy was really kind of
just a low level entertainer. Not true. Yeah, I agree
with that. What I mean people at ben Way would
(07:14):
what right, Caroline, Yeah, but but but also just regard
that as like a baseball song. No, it's actually a
really good song in itself. Well, I think you're I
think this is what happens. It seems like with a
lot of really really um mass appeal entertainers. And of
course it's foolish, like the audience is smart. They attach
(07:34):
themselves to something for a good reason. People punched through
not by accident, and the process of a mobituary is
too tell the story of a person's life in the
context of the times in which they lived in not
are modern times, because some of the issues and some
of the people are viewed maybe more harshly now than
(07:57):
they were in the time in which they lived, or
they were subject to pressures unlike the pressures they would
face now. Back in season two, there's a tribute to
really one of the greatest entertainers ever, Sammy Davis Jr. Right,
And that story is about his time, his struggles and
how he moved through them. Yeah, I think it's I
(08:18):
mean I'd like to try to go back and and
and help the audience understand how the person was received
in their time. I mean, obviously there's a point of view,
So I mean, I can't if it would be a
cheat for me to say, oh, we're not judging them
by contemporary standards, it's not true. But I also don't
(08:39):
want to look when we did Latin Lovers in the
first half of this season Valentino, Roman Navarro, Fernando Lamas.
You know, Valentino is a hundred years before me too, Okay,
And so I get it these a lot of these
movies haven't dated well. Um, but of movie goers were
women at the time, and he was created by men.
(09:00):
I mean, the matinee Idol was created by women who
at that time, you know, that's what they wanted. And
so I didn't feel like digging up women that have
been dead for seventy and eighty years and putting them
on trial. I mean, for like what they liked. I
think it's you know, it's it's sort of this is
what was at the time, and of course, you know,
(09:20):
we add a little bit of like my viewpoint on it.
But I'm interested in what created this phenomena at the time.
Why why people were literally killing themselves when he died,
because there was such hysteria. And tastes are tastes, and
one of the ways to understand how a culture evolves
is to understand tastes of a different era. Totally, yes,
(09:42):
And if you don't understand the taste of a different area,
you can't mark yourself and how things have changed. And
one of the ways of appreciating and sort of quantifying
change and evolution is, well, what were the taste back then?
And why how do we get here? And also, I
don't think I don't think most people are that judgmental anyway.
(10:06):
I don't think most place senior. Oh, that's so terrible.
I mean, there is a there is a sort of
self defined judgment or judgmental industrial complex, but most people
are not a member of it. That's hysterical. The judgmental
industrial complex is perfect, that's perfect. Yeah, if it most
people don't count themselves in that, and they want to know. Like,
(10:26):
for example, going back to John Denver, I didn't realize
until I listened, not only didn't he have a successful
songwriting career, but and we'll talk more about this on
the other side of the break. Uh, he had one
of the most watched Christmas specials in the history of
broadcast television. Yes, yes, I mean it's not it's it's
(10:47):
it's not quite the level of say my podcast or yours.
Sixty five million people tuned in to the Rocky Mountain
Christmas Special in and you know when I found it.
You can find it on YouTube to but don't. I'm
not sure it's supposed to be there, but it's um
it is. And you know, you and I are not
far apart in age, and so you can smell the
(11:09):
seventies just by listening to this thing. It is so
evocative of kind of a weird sort of one kind
of energy, you know, John Denver, it's sort of There
are scenes of nature. There's um flying a slow most
shot of a flying squirrel. There's a sequence on the
life's life cycle of the brook trout. And we're gonna
(11:29):
hold on the brook trout and all the other scenery
because we need to go to break. Do we have
brook Trout coming by the way, because Garrett Segment two
of the takeout coming up intil a second from CBS News.
(11:51):
This is the takeout with Major Garrett Welcome back to
segment two of the Takeout Trotta del Arte in Midtown Manhattan.
Our special guest Rocca and I am just gonna fanboy
for the next forty minutes because it's about mobituaries. It's
about this phenomenal podcast that grew out of your work
on CBS Sunday Morning, and this gathering of information, observation
(12:18):
and archival sound that brings to life people who deserve
a second look. And we'll get back to the John
Denver Christmas Special from a second. But you are the
editorial agent of control over who gets the second look,
are you not? Yeah? I mean, I don't know. I
don't know if you feel this way too. I just
feel like I've learned to trust my gut. I don't
(12:39):
want that in a leader necessarily, but like for editorial,
you know, if something gets me in the gut. I
think there's something about, say John Denver that and I
mentioned this in the podcast. I was this is going
to be a name drop. But I participated in a
reading that a friend put on a playwright and Julianne
(12:59):
Moore was there and she sat right next to me.
It was really cool, and and my friend was being
very nice and said, oh, Julianne, you have to listen
to most podcast in obituaries. He explained what it was,
and she said, who do you have coming up? And
I said John Denver and she like she melted, She
went John Denver and and she like was it's sort
(13:21):
of like she stepped into a time machine right there
and went back and and was just exhaled and and
uh um. And I think that there's something that makes people.
He's what I call an undervalued stock. And I think
there are people like that that they're sitting somewhere in
the back of our minds, and then if you bring
them up, people go, oh my god, that's right. I
(13:41):
loved that person. And if you can find those are
people that I'm always kind of like, who who is
a person like that? And go back to the Christmas Special?
So did you say sixty eight million people watch this?
Six that is? So this is remember Dais and gentle
let's just go back in the way back machine with
Mr Peabody. Yeah. So broadcast television back then was a
(14:04):
mass audience structure. Three networks that were not a lot
of choices were streaming alternatives. There weren't cable alternatives. But
still it was highly competitive because of that intense segmented
So if you pulled sixty eight million, you were literally
pulling ten million viewers from two other networks at that hour.
It is Listen, you're absolutely right when people say, oh,
(14:26):
there were only three networks. Okay, that's fine, but also
the country was also significantly smaller. Okay, the country had
I think probably you know, like two competitive zeal to
grab a million viewers, let alone ten million from another
network was off the chart. Yeah. And so when you
watch this thing, it's I mean, it's very weirdly seventies.
He's and basically he's like basically in a snow globe
(14:47):
and a biosphere that they've built for him in the rockies,
and he's got like grow eas and greenies as he
calls him. Inside. He has all this plant life inside
um and UM at the whole thing. I'm not surprised.
Imagine hanging Macromay baskets are probably in there somewhere. And
(15:08):
he's got the biggest stars of the day. He's got
Steve Martin in his Wild and Crazy Guy, UM period
and and Um, Valerie Harper, Olivia Newton, John Um and
he just sort of sings songs. There's kind of a
it's cheerful, but there's also something kind of wand and
sort of seventies about it. And think about the psyche
(15:30):
collectively of the country. Nine the bi centennial year. But
we're coming off Vietnam. We're wondering about what what America
means after two hundred years. We are still dealing with
the after effects of the civil rights movement, campus riots,
all of those things. Watergate is just right in the
rear view mirror. And this idea of almost like this
(15:51):
snow globe commune ye yep, sitting in the middle of
living rooms across America found a place of traction psychically,
I think people if you look at it and you
think people just needed a break, people just needed a break.
And even the way everyone in the audience shots, the
(16:12):
reaction shots, I mean there's a there's a I wouldn't
say a like quality to it, but everyone looks mildly sedated,
like and so everyone's ballly um, it's like a very
like that crowd and uhum, and everyone sort of naturally attractive,
like no one seems to be wearing makeup, none of
(16:32):
the women and so um, and he's sort of strumming
his guitar and they're having a sing along. Um And
one of the things I love about the Mobituaries about
John Denver. And I promise we'll get onto other parts
of Mobituary Season three. But I found this deeply meaningful
to me because I had sort of overlooked John Denver
until recently got the greatest hits on my iTunes. And
(16:54):
we all remember, I certainly remember the time Rocky Mountain
High having a kind of hilarious end joke Rocky Mountain High,
everyone stone, that's not what the song is about. And
the first three stands of that song, I urged my
audience go back and listen to it. It is beautiful,
evocative life journey writing. It really is. And I mean yeah,
(17:19):
And he went and he testified in fact, but during
the um Parents Music Research Council, right the tipper Goore
hearings that what are commonly known as that and and said,
you know, my song was not was not about that.
It seems almost quaint now because no one would care
today if they thought it then. And it was sort
of like an allegation against it, like a celebration of
(17:41):
sitting around a campfire just getting stoned and that's all
that's all American youth could do, and how terrible that was,
and we ought to do something about that. Arms Akind
Absolutely No, it was his. It was his reaction to
seeing the the parased meteor shower from twelve thousand feet
up in the Rockies and how beautiful that was. Damn
exactly exactly. Um, how is it that people like John Denver?
(18:07):
And I imagine you've thought about this because you're saying
this person deserves a second look? Have you ever come
to a unified theory about why they didn't get the
good look the first time? M Um? Well, I think
it's probably different in every case. I think for John Denver,
I do think that he would have been recognized more
(18:27):
had he lived longer. And you know what you know,
as you know one of the in the podcast Bill
flan Again it was a great music writer, and I
talked about how today he might be Dolly Partner. He
might have been Dolly Partner, this enduring person of with
a with a great songbook that is a touchdowe for
lots of people over many generations. Yeah, I think so.
(18:48):
And I don't know what the statistics are, but I
bet that the number of times his songs are played
would probably surprise a lot of us, like how they're
still played. So, um, yeah, I think you would be
a figure like that. And uh so I'm not, I'm not,
I'm not sure. It's it's a it's I think it's
different every time. So who is Mr and Mrs Smith
(19:09):
And why did they rate a mobituary? Well? Mr and
Mrs Smith rated him obituary because actually the producer of
that episode, um Zoe Marcus, had sent long ago an
image of a Time magazine cover from seven Um that
simply says Mr and Mrs Smith an interracial marriage. And
I remember being struck that I had not known the
(19:32):
story that Dean Rusk, the Georgia Democrat who was um
the Secretary of State under Kennedy and and LBJ, that
his daughter, who was white, married a black man in
seven and that that would have been put on the
cover of Time magazine. And and one of the details
really jumped out at me that Dean Rusk, her father,
(19:53):
had offered his resignation to the president because he was
worried that the publicity around it would comprom eyes, you know,
crucial Southern support and Congress for the president's agenda on
like a civil rights in Vietnam. But um that one
marriage could be so galvanized as to possibly jeopardize the
(20:14):
political prospects of a president of the United States. Right.
But what also kind of captivated me was the idea
of this young couple in love who end up on
the cover of Time magazine and then are completely forgotten,
which they were very happy about. They retired, They moved
as young people to central Virginia and raised horses all
their lives. I mean, she was Peggy Rusk of the
(20:37):
daughter of the Secretary of State, was not like a
did not aspire to be a Washington doyenne or social climber.
She just had no interest in that. She found this guy,
fell in love, they married, and they just wanted to
get away from it all and be with horses, which
is how they met. And why is nineteen sixty seven
a particularly important year because it ends up being this
year where it starts with um loving versus Virginia and
(20:59):
the unanim mis ruling and um uh that struck down
bands in sixteen states against mixed race marriages. And then
you have this marriage in the middle, and then you
have guests Who's coming to dinner? Um, huge box office
success at the end of that year. And then there's
a little detail that I thought was really interesting that
(21:20):
Sidney pot I'm gonna hold you right there because that
interesting detail is a perfect segue and a grabber for
the next segment of the Takeout, And that's what Rocca
is doing. And the broados here and I'm Major Garrett
back for more of our deeply enjoyable conversation about Mobituary
season three here on the Takeout from CBS News. This
(21:52):
is the Takeout with Major Garrett. Welcome back. This is
not a rhetorical question. How delightful is it to spend
the end of twenty two in the presence of Mo
Rocca in downtown Midtown, New York. It's spectacular. I told
you it was not a rhetorical question. Our subject matter
is Mo Rocca. Of course, Mobituaries. Midway through season three, UM,
we're talking about Mr and Mrs Smith. One of the
(22:14):
things I found very interesting about that episode is Dean
Rusk's daughter, who becomes Mrs Smith, doesn't really think much
of guests Who's coming to dinner? The movie which wasn't,
as you said, a box office sensation then and is
regarded as one of these turning point movies of its time,
(22:35):
and people who watch it now find great inspiration, substance, emotion,
and a kind of clarity in it. But that didn't
really land that way with her. It sounded like to me,
you know, it didn't. And I found her as a
character so interesting because she was and and I'm sure
when you encounter this, i'd like, I'm guessing you're happy
(22:57):
about it. She's like someone who's never watching TV because
she doesn't have the cadence of a TV interviewee. She
just answers like she'll sometimes do like one word answers
and she talks like a normal person. I'm like, what
are you doing? Why are you being so normal? Like
you're supposed to talk like people do on TV and
give these answers. You're just to give me the answers
(23:19):
I'm expecting, what is wrong here? No, it's so and
but what I what What I also found sort of
inspiring is kind of she had this clarity that she
was in love with this guy and that's all that matters.
She wasn't really I was sort of taken aback when
she says she wasn't following the Supreme Court case. Now,
that's probably because she was in a state where she
(23:40):
was in the district of Columbia and she was gonna
get married in California. There wasn't going to be an
issue there in were protected. Yeah, but but but she wasn't.
She just says, look, I don't know what to tell you.
I wasn't doing this to make a cultural impact or
make a political point. I was doing it because I
was in love. And when I interviewed the great entertainer
Leslie Ulghams, who married a white man an Austar alien
(24:00):
two years before in she sort of said the same thing, like,
you know, when you're in love with somebody, you're not
really thinking about the social issue aspect of it. I mean,
you know, and that's maybe one of the ways, you know,
it's really deep and abiding for them, right, because they're
(24:20):
not distracted by all these other things. They just know
what they are, who they are, and what it means
to be together, right, And there's a abject beauty to
that mm hmm. Completely, it's so pure, and then it's
it's sort of plainness and ordinariness. It seems to me
as I was listening felt extraordinary. Yeah, well, I'm glad
(24:44):
you feel that way. Thank you, and uh and thank her.
But it's um, and I hope that that's why it's
that that people that it's landing with a lot of
people who are sick of everything, every personal story becoming
news becoming a political story necessarily because it doesn't. It
just doesn't, it doesn't fit it that neatly. And if
(25:08):
you allow me, well, I'd like to reach back to
season two, uh to talk about Sammy Davis Jr. Um,
because some in this audience may not have a real memory. Uh,
Sammy Davis Jr. You have to be a person at
a certain age like you and I are you. And
I grew up watching Sammy on television and even then
I knew he was amazing, but I didn't know until
I listened to the show how highly he was regarded
(25:33):
by the superstars of his time. Yeah, he really was.
When he was at Ciro's nightclub in Los Angeles, I
mean people, everyone wanted to get in and see him perform.
And he was quite young then. He was primarily a
dancer then and uh, um and part of a nightclub
act with his father and part of the will Maston trio. Um.
(25:54):
But even then, you know, people were fighting to get
in and see this this masterful performer. And then he
lost his eye and he came back from that. But
part of why I wanted to do him just because
not just my admiration and affection and call it death
of an entertainer, is because entertainer the word. Sometimes people
are a little kind of I think it sounds a
(26:16):
little cheeseball, but they're dismissive it, right. But to be
a capital e entertainer like that, um, that's really special.
To be somebody who performs, you know, in Vegas and
then goes back to his hotel room and does the
whole act again with lizam and Ellie because they both
just love performing. That's like, that's a certain drive and
(26:37):
an energy that that we all are great should be
grateful for to have that person in our lives. And
there's a theme in that mobituary that I think is
also important because looking back at entertainers of that era,
So in the TV era who made it big, they
came out of vaudeville, which was a place that demanded
(26:59):
not just one talent. You could not be successful in
vaudeville as a single talent entertainer. No, I mean he
was sort of a quintuple threat. I guess, actor, singer, dancer.
He had the gun spinning routine, which was really amazing. Uh.
He was also a really great impressionist, and he was
also groundbreaking impressionist because he was a black impressionist, um,
(27:19):
imitating white actors. But and when he did that in
the army after being physically beaten regularly, you know, because
he was part of the first wave of integrated forces. Um,
he was so good that that even like the abusive
white you know, soldiers who would bullied him and worse,
you know, we're like, whoa, this guy is really special.
(27:42):
And one other theme that comes through subtly. But I
think it's important because it's a hallmark of people who
are successful in times when their success is harder than
the people they are around. There was a tenacity to Sammy. Yeah,
they're yeah, there there was. There was, there was a
(28:02):
tenacity he kept going. And I think also there's something, Um,
I find something. I actually, weirdly enough, was thinking a
little bit of Ellen DeGeneres when I was doing this,
because I remember when I profiled her that she said,
you know, I just want to make people laugh. I
(28:23):
just want to be an entertainer. And she sort of
got caught up in one point in politics and having
you know, and she she she was okay being an advocate,
but what she really wanted to do was entertained and
that's kind of Sammy Davis Jr. And by the way,
Sammy Davis Jr. Went and launched it Selma. He was
on the march on Washington and I think Harry Belafonte
(28:44):
even said at one point, I don't understand why Sammy
Davis Jr. Doesn't get credit for that, and it's seen
as somebody who sort of shirked that, which he didn't.
But maybe it's because he was so first and foremost
an entertainer and loved doing that. There might be one answer.
It's referred to in the episode. I remember it in
my household growing up when he endorsed Richard Nixon, and
(29:05):
that maybe one reason. That was a moment from my
Republican Paris right. I'm seriously it was. It was a
moment and they said, see Richard Nixon must be fine.
This this this amazing. We did not use the terminology
African American at the time, this amazing black American has
endorsed Richard Nixon. Good enough for Sammy, good enough for
(29:28):
us even Yeah, it was a moment. And you mentioned
in the episode that there was a little bit of hey,
what are you doing among white liberals and maybe some
in the civil rights community, you know, there was And
then he this great speech was a push conference. I
am who I am right, Yeah, I'm a black man
in American I've made a choice, right and and and
(29:50):
it was and I really loved talking to Willie Brown
about that, who is, by the way, just one of
the greatest interviews ever. So he talked about an individual
y mean and as sharp an observer and uh, he
has to pick up on something you said earlier, a
gut sense of politics that is very very good, very
very sharp, always has and he had sort of a
(30:15):
three sixty view of Sammy. He really did. And he
also really pushed back at the notion that Sammy might
have been deficient because he was so much about entertainment.
He was like, no, he's a great cook. He was,
you know, a film lover. He was a really sophisticated
guy and a great host. So it was I loved
hearing his perspective. So when we think about, because we're
(30:38):
going to be anticipating in a lot of different ways,
what should we think about, what can you set the
table at for coming up from obituaries in the second
part of season three, Well, I really wanted to tell
the story of Samantha Smith, whom you probably remember, but
an astonishing number of people have forgotten that. In this
(30:59):
young girl from Jane, she wasn't connected. She wrote a
letter like how many kids were kept awake at night
during the eighties and seventies. I'm sure terrified that the
world was going to be blown up, right, that the
Soviet Union in America would trade you know, I CBMs
and and uh and she wrote a letter to Eurie
(31:24):
drop LP and with that another teaser. At the top
of his game, Always at the top of his game,
I Major Garrett. That's Morocco. Stay tuned for segment four
because that's a great teaser. When we get back from
(31:47):
CBS News, this is the takeout with Major Garrett. Always
fantastic to be in New York City. Even better when
I get to sit down for meal with Morocca. So, Mo,
you were talking about a letter, Well, right, do you
remember towards the end of the Soviet Union, there were
like a succession of really scary ghoules at the top. Right,
(32:07):
it went, it went, the Supreme Soviet it went well,
it went Breshnev and drop Up in Chernienko, Right, those
are the three. I mean, Breshnev had been there a
long time. But but and drop Up was like like
particularly a caricature of a scary guy because he'd run
the KGB right and uh and um. And so this girl,
(32:28):
Samantha Smith wrote this letter saying, you know, why do
you want to blow up the world basically, and he
wrote her back. The letter was published in propta um
and said, you know, we don't want that, and um,
you know people all over the world are the same
blah blah blah blah blah, and come visit the Soviet Union.
And so she went, and CBS and News covered the
hell out of it. It was a very big deal.
(32:51):
But what I found, um in previous seasons of the
podcast is people under a certain age really not that
much younger than me, but had no clue. And one
of the producers said, no, you this, You've got to
do this episode because no one I'm telling you, no
millennials know this story at all, not only all of
that story, but have any sense of And you mentioned
(33:13):
this before we went to break and it might have
struck people. What the terror terror, the psychic heaviness that
came with the Cold War, And in the seventies and eighties,
almost once a month there was a story written about
the ever enlarging stockpiles of nuclear weapons and how many
times over one side or another could obliterate Planet Earth.
(33:36):
That was heavy, It was real, and it weighed on
you every single day. It weighed on you. And and
so when I hear about kids who have climate anxiety,
I take that seriously. When I hear that, like kids
have trouble sleeping because they're worried that the planet is
going to be destroyed, and um, you know that the
cities and places where they live will be submerged by
the oceans. And I thought that's what it was that
(33:59):
I can sort of felt existential. It felt existential. And
I had two fears at that time myself as an adolescent,
that the world would be destroyed by nuclear attack, and
that Broadway was just not economically viable as a model,
and that by the time I moved to New York,
there would be no you know, Broadway. So those two
things were the we're really weighing on me. Uh, Samantha
(34:21):
Smith did nothing for the Broadway community, I'm sure you know,
but thankfully it's still here, still here and going strong.
But but she did, she did something remarkable. And she
was a kid, an ordinary kid, and and the trip
there was really interesting because she that was not easy
to comport herself the way she did, and so that
(34:41):
story has been really interesting to tell. So one of
the things that I find so enjoyable about obituaries is
not only is it a second look, but it's a
closer look at the first two lines of the original obituary,
if you will, Because everyone who who achieves some level
of notoriety, this is true, ladies and gentlemen, I've done it.
(35:05):
You wonder, all right, when I die, what's the first
or second line going to be about me? Anyone who
denies that is not being honest with themselves, and they're
not being honest with you, Okay. And so you look
at that lead and you say, is that true? Yes?
But or did that completely miss it or miss it
(35:27):
by more than it should have? It seems to me
that's one of the exercises you go through in the process. Well,
I appreciate that because I hadn't thought of it in
those terms, but I'd like to think that that's what
we are doing with it. I hope so. Um, I
think you're right. It is interesting to see what that
little is it in a positive I forget what the
grammatical term for it is. But you know, Joe Schmo
(35:50):
Calma died today, he was sixty eight or whatever. Exactly
exactly what is that thing that is the essence? Yeah,
what is the contemporary essence of this person? Maybe right,
maybe incomplete, maybe more wrong than right. And it seems
to me that's one of the things you're trying to excavate. Yeah,
(36:10):
And and look that changes with I mean different eras,
because you know, a while back, when Jerry Jerry Lee
Lewis died, some of the the I could see that
some of the o bits were balancing his legendary career
as a rock and roller with his personal life in
trying to smush it in there. You know, in earlier
(36:32):
era would not have worried about the personal side. I'm
not saying one is right and one is wrong. What
is that is there? Oh, thank you so much. That's fine,
that's fine. Actually no, it's not. But it is a
break in the video action, which is which is what
when Midtown Manhattan it's a functioning, moving wine indulgent restaurants.
(36:55):
So that's great. This is not a rehearsal to say,
that's the kids saying right yeah, And it's not a
drill without they saying and it's uh an appraisal plus more.
And what do you find about the podcast space that
gives you that elbow room? Well, I think certainly the
(37:17):
space the time you know that you can take, which
I don't you know, I don't want to abuse that.
You know, sometimes on streaming shows you think, well, you know,
maybe it could have used a commercially a network exactly
telling you sorry, five episodes, not a yeah exactly, you know,
forty minutes, not seventy like you didn't need that, and
uh um. But I think there's there's a room for that.
(37:41):
I also think, you know, probably sometimes for intense interviews,
not you know, showing up with just a microphone, people
will open up a little bit of that question without question.
I think so. And one of the things that I
find and you will probably feel humble about this in
a way that I don't intend, like, oh, major, what
are you saying that for? You have convening authority, there
(38:01):
are people who will talk to you that enlarge this
project and these and these concepts. It feels to me, well,
I hope so, I mean, that's that is nice of
you to say that, and I hope so. I hope
as people listen to more episodes or or see interviews
that they like that I've done, um, that it will
make them more open to it. I know with you know,
with John Denver that there was a lot of protectiveness
(38:23):
around him and I thought, all right, you know, um,
but but who's who is the leading character of that episode?
His ex wife Annie? Yeah, and and that that had
to take some doing it did I think she needed
to know that this was not this was coming from
I know it sounds corny, but from a place of
(38:44):
love and it is it is which you know, Um,
that's there. There's a way, you know, from a place
of love to get too to make discoveries. And in
the last minute or so, we have mode. It feels
also that one of the things you want to help
people understand is that there is an American story. It
(39:04):
has lots of characters, there are lots of complexities to it,
and we should spend some time with it. Yeah, um, yes,
uh and um yeah, and I want to tell more
of those stories. And well, I mean yeah, because I
really like America and I and think there are a
(39:26):
lot of great stories and there are a lot of
things to be happy and proud about, and uh, you know,
and and um there are a lot of heroes and
uh you know, I don't want it to be hokey
and um, but uh sure, I mean that. I hope
there are many more episodes that we can keep telling
(39:46):
stories about people who overcame struggles and achieved great things
in part because they were here. So Jamie Benson, who
was behind the camera with us this episode and running
audio and who was an integral part of article and
has been part of my success in the debrief in
the take out for the better part of six years,
(40:07):
had an idea and you latched onto it. So let's
roll with this a little basis major Why don't you
think of a possible mobituary? Can I suggest one? Please?
Kurt Flood? Who's Kurt Flood? Beautiful? Beautiful beautiful. I'm already intrigued.
Kurt Flood played major League baseball. He played Major League
(40:29):
baseball for the St. Louis Cardinals. He was an All
Star outfielder African American. Kurt Flood went to federal court
to challenge the reserve clause, which was something that existed
in Major League Baseball until Kurt Flood came along. What
was the reserve clause? It said, every Major League baseball
(40:50):
team reserved the right to keep you on their roster
until they changed their mind. You could never opt out
of your contract for the perpetuity of your major league career.
Kurt Flood said that disabled him and every other Major
League baseball player from their rights to test their value
among other teams. Kurt Flood went to federal court one
(41:12):
his case and began the era of free agency. So
that's how we got free agency. I had no idea.
I had no idea. Well, I'm instantly drawn to it.
Also because I know how Cardinal fans are just so
fur fan and which makes the best baseball fans in
the country. I've been to many baseball games in St. Louis,
and they know the game. They are deeply appreciative and
(41:35):
Missouri has a complicated history in our country sure with
with race relations dating all the way back to to
pre Civil War times. Um, the dread Scott case originates
in part in Missouri. Kurt Flood is an enormously important
part of the American story and the assertion of rights
and the searching for rights. In a different context athletics,
(41:59):
but was in enormously important to the game we see
before us today. That right, So that that's that's that's
one suggestion. Um what else he got? We got a
lot of We got seasons to fill a more material Now, Uh,
this this can't happen yet because he's still with us.
(42:22):
But when the day comes, and I hope it's not soon,
I believe Jerry Brown would deserve an examination for his
multi decade career in politics that has more twists and
turns than I think anyone comparable. Well, and also Jerry Brown,
(42:42):
I mean at one point he went and worked in
Calcutto with mother Teresa. I mean, he's had a really
contrascinating life, and he was this Roman candle in American
politics early in his career, and he's very reflective about
the mistakes he made and the Hubris that came with
it then, And this is one of the things that
I'm drawn to, not ideologically, not because of party, but
(43:03):
because of I believe people who will stay in the
arena deserve appraisal. You're staying in the arena because it's
not easy to stay in the arena. He was very
high and then he went back and became a mayor
in a very tough stay to be in Oakland, way
up high, back down low, and then served and understood,
(43:24):
and he learned more about being a good leader and
being a good deliverer of services to a community than
he rose to attorney general. Then he became governor again
and ushered California into its sort of modern future. I
just think he is someone who spands decades and isn't
(43:45):
rigid in any of those particular decades. And I love
that that he went from governor to being mayor and
reminds me a little bit of John Quincy Adams going
from president to a house rap and that being his
happiest time actually as a house rap and uh um
and uh and and didn't Jerry Brown dated deper Winger also,
so he's Linda Ronda Ronstad. Sorry, Bob Kerry dated deper
(44:07):
winger winger. I don't want to do that to different winger,
but anyway, everything dated, No, no, no, uh the uh
um yeah, Linda ron Stadt of course, but yeah, no,
he's what an interesting life. Well, we wish him well,
We wish you well, Jerry absolutely absolutely. I'm not, yeah,
prematurizing that, if that's even a word, But I do
(44:27):
think there is something worth saying about Jerry Brown because
he occupies the difference and and he is an embodiment
of the seventies in a certain way, a caricature of
that time. And you either stuck with that are you
mature it out of it? And I think that journey
is is interesting. Can you know how far we've fallen?
I remember when he was in the primary against Phil
was the first presidential campaign I covered, Okay, and I
(44:49):
remember listening to W A. M U. I think it
was still called there and Diane Ream and somebody called
up and went, well, Governor Moonbeam, and then she went
and she went, we do not insult people on this show,
and she made the caller apologize. And how far we
fall in because now everyone just insults each other all
the time. But then that was your authenticity to insult.
(45:13):
I'm authentic and I don't insult. I'm Major Garrett Morocco.
What a pleasure, thanks man, and you're not. And I'm
eating anchovies and you're not insulting me. I mean because
I'm not touching a mom, not today, not ever. That's it,
ladies and down. When we'll see you next week. The
Takeout is produced by Arden Farie, Jamie Benson, Sarah Cook,
Ellie Watson, Jake Rosen, and Ashley Armstrong. CBSN production by
(45:37):
Eric Susanin. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at
Takeout Podcast. That's at Takeout podcast, and for more go
to Takeout podcast dot com. The Takeout is a production
of CBS News. I hope you enjoyed listening to this
(45:57):
episode of The Takeout with Major Garrett, a weekly podcast
from CBS News. If you like what you heard, may
I ask you to follow The take Out. Just like Mobituaries,
It's available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or altogether Now wherever
you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week with
more new episodes from season three of Mobituaries.
Host
Mo Rocca
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