November 15, 2019 • 45 mins
Thomas Paine wrote Common Sense, the pamphlet that inspired the American Revolution. So why did only six people show up at his funeral? Mo finds out why this essential Founding Father has never gotten his due - and, with the help of a Tony nominated Broadway songwriting team and The Daily Show's Lewis Black, stages a rollicking memorial service for Paine on the spot where he dropped dead.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, It's a sunny Saturday afternoon in April, and
I've driven up to New Rochelle, New York, a suburb
just north of New York City. Get the park three
blocks away. I mean, they're people are showing up for
this there. I'm here for a celebration. A lot of
activity here, a lot of excitement. Really more of a commemoration.
(00:24):
You know. The mayor is going to be here, dignitary.
You see, everyone has gathered here today to honor the
person that put New Rochelle on the map. You travel
out of state and you tell something. While I live
in Rochelle, the first thing they'll tell you his ome
The Dick Van Dyke Show, Dick Van Dyke Show, Starry
(00:45):
Dick Van Dyke. Beloved actor Dick Van Dyke played comedy
writer Rob Petrie. On The Dick Van Dyke Show. A
young Mary Tyler Moore played his wife, Laura. Would you
stage your name in the please where it's Mrs Laura
Petrie One for a Bonnie Meta Road, Michelle, New York.
That's right. The fictional couple lived in New Rochelle, and
(01:08):
today the townspeople are dedicating the real Bonnie Meta Road
to the hit nineteen sixty series You can take a
picture in the TV love to do that with Nancy
Ann with you, Dick Van Dyke, show creator nineties seven
year old comedy legend Carl Reiner even skyped in for
the occasion. Mccar he's wearing Argyle's sweater. He looks great. Actually,
(01:33):
the reason the show was set in New Rochelle when
Reiner was just starting out, he and his family lived here.
Every episode has a little me and my wife. Now,
as much as I loved Rob and Laura Petrie, there's
another person, a real person, who lived in New Rochelle
and who was pretty important other than Carl Renner, you
(01:53):
know who else is from here for a while. Andrew
Mitchell Andrewell of Fine. Oh, let's say I'm trying to
thank jowing a blank. Well, let's um, he wrote pamphlets, pamphlets.
Carl Reiner knows who I'm talking about. No more important
(02:13):
name in our history than Tom Paine. Yes, Thomas Payne.
He didn't just write pamphlets with his pen. He helped
birth this very country. Oh my god, could right. You're
a great writer, and you acknowledge that he was a
great writer as well, Oh well, let's say high squibble,
he wrote. Yes, Payne's pamphlet Common Sense is not only
(02:37):
one of the best selling publications in American history, it
was the intellectual spark that lit the fuse for the
American Revolution. Without him, there might not be a United States. Yet,
when Payne died, only six people showed up at his funeral.
The paltry opit that was published at the time summed
up his life in this line, he had lived long,
(03:01):
did some good and much harm. Even after Pain died,
he couldn't rest in peace. The guy's bones were stolen.
And was Thomas Paine a founding father? I don't know
the answer that was in this episode? Will tell you
why Pain matters, and we'll give him the send off
(03:21):
he deserves, complete with an original Mobits production number without
the brain. Make no mistake, no Pain, No Gain of
Independence from CBS Sunday Morning and Simon and Schuster. I'm
(03:44):
Morocca and this is mobituaries. This mobit Thomas Paine June eight,
eight o nine, death of a forgotten founding father to
(04:10):
pactically started this whole country. He's dead. What are you
learning her about? Dead people? For all I want you
to do is teach your i'd act with life people.
Education is a very difficult thing to control, Harry. One
thing that was the incomparable comedian Judy Holiday teaching her
bullying boyfriend a thing or two in the film Born Yesterday.
(04:33):
The scenes funny because it's true many of us have
heard of Thomas Paine but don't really know what he did.
This is an important guy, right yes before scientific polls.
One way to measure public opinion, A proxy for it anyway,
might be pamphlet sales. Anthony Salvonto heads up the CBS
(04:53):
News polling unit. I asked him to help us gauge
how well recognized or unrecognized Thomas Payne is as a
founding father. The polling unit called a random sampling of
a thousand people. The way this one is asked is
you know which of these people as a founding father?
And Thomas Payne's name was was put out there. The
(05:15):
choices were Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Payne, Frederick Douglas Fitzgerald, Thomas Grant.
The third who you know as Oh you got me?
Anthony was the president on the TV show Scandal with
Kerry Washington. Come on, thank you. Other choices included James
Tiberius Kirk, the Captain of the Enterprise, Colonel Sanders, Will Smith,
Frank Sinatra, and I don't know. And what were the results. Well,
(05:38):
if Frank Sinatra comes in at one percent, old blue
eyes might not be happy with that. But here's the
most striking result. Forty three percent selected Abraham Lincoln as
the one founding father on the list. And now, obviously
he comes some years after the people we think of
as founding father. In fact, four score and seven years
(06:01):
later exactly, Sir, just of respondents correctly named Thomas Paine.
So the recognition of Pain as a founding father is
mixed at best, even if most of us recognize the
man's words, I know, and it's amazing. People may have
known that he said these are the times at time
and souls. They may know that he said, we have
(06:22):
it in our power to begin the world over again.
They may know that he wrote common sense, but they
don't really know who he is. That's Pain. Biographer Craig D. Nelson,
not to be confused with actor Craig T. Nelson. A
little bit of housekeeping, how often are you asked if
you start in the sitcom coach all the time, Yeah,
all the time. In fact, I think I'd help me
(06:44):
launch my career that people thought I was coached, so
they would buy the book and then I chop at
autographics and they'd be horribly disappointed. But to they already paid.
But good point. You got him in the tent. Why not?
Why did you want to write about Tom Paine? Well,
I had this fun He's a little article that talked
about how, ten years after he died, his biggest fan
(07:04):
went to New Rochelle and dug his bones up. So today,
if you do a Thomas Pain book and you will
find this out when this podcast comes out, people will
contact you to see if you would like to buy
a bone. And have you ever touched one of Thomas
Pain's bones? Which one? Which bones? I think it was
like a finger. But someone showed up and tried to
sell me something. And I want to assure listeners that
(07:25):
we will talk about what happened to his bones later
in the episode. But suffice it to say, Craig, this
kind of devotion is remarkable. When Thomas Pain was alive,
he was the most famous person in the world. He
knew everyone, he knew Jefferson, he knew Washington, he knew Robespierre,
he knew I mean, it's it's astonishing who is associated.
And he'd come a very long way as opposed to
(07:47):
most of the other founding fathers who came from money.
Paine was born in sevente into humble circumstances in England.
He's like the work class founder. What inspires him to
even come to America. He had the most horrible life
you could possibly have in England. His mother was an
(08:08):
Anglican named Francis Cock, who married a Quaker named Joseph Payne,
thus making her anyway. Joseph was a staymaker another way
of saying. He made corsets that were a combination like
a boostier and a girdle, this giant, one piece thing
that women wore, right but anyway, so that's what he did.
(08:30):
Young Thomas drops out of school at twelve. A few
years later, when Britain goes to war with France, Payne
seeks adventure on the high seas as a privateer, capturing
enemy ships for the British government. It looks like he
made quite a bit of money doing that, and he
ended up taking you know, junior year abroad. He ended
(08:50):
up as a twenty year old man wandering around London
taking classes, basically giving himself the education that the middle
class founders are getting in schools. He got himself. He
learned how to write, he learned all about the classics.
So Thomas Payne is like a sponge. He's absorbing us. Yes,
he has bills to pay, though, so he takes up
(09:11):
his father's trade of staymaking. But things are too tight.
Pain can't make ends meet and soon falls into debt.
And this is where things really start going south. And
so you see Tommy's pain moving from town to town,
one step ahead of his creditors. And his personal life
is a disaster. He has one wife who dies in
(09:32):
Childsworth and loses the child too. He has another wife
he's separated from. He tries to be a staymaker, he
tries to be a grocer, he tries to be a
tax collector, and fails at all of these things. It's
during his time as a tax collector that Paine first
catches the activist bog the country's excise officers another way
of saying, tax collectors hadn't received a raise in over
(09:54):
a century, and Pain felt they were overdue. So he
writes one of his very first pamphle, it's demanding better pay.
It doesn't go over so well. He's fired from his
job and forced to sell off most of his possessions.
So personally and professionally he's kind of a wreck. There's
no place to go but to get on a boat.
Luckily for Paine, he had made a valuable connection in London.
(10:18):
Benjamin Franklin, who was representing colonial interests in England, met
Paine and was impressed by the young firebrand. Benjamin Franklin
called him his adopted political son, and so, carrying a
letter of recommendation from Franklin, Thomas Paine sets sail for
the New World. But the voyage across the Atlantic isn't easy.
(10:40):
Paine almost dies from Typhus. He arrives none too soon
in November of seventeen seventy four, lands in Philadelphia, where
Franklin's from, and until the place to go. Yeah, this
is a big city in America at that moment, and
almost immediately he becomes the editor of Pennsylvania Magazine. Paine
builds Pennsylvania Magazine into the widest circulating in the colonies,
(11:04):
but it's with a different kind of periodical that he
makes his biggest impact. Pain was a big, big, big
hottie in the pamphlet world. Yes, pamphlets were hot in
the seventeen seventies. What's the deal with pamphlets because I
associate pamphlets with pre nine eleven, when people could roam
(11:24):
around airports with these things, handing them to you when arrived,
saying please join my group. So pamphlet is a little
tiny essay. They were like ten pages maybe tops, and
they were just printed on a great big broadsheet and
then folded up and heads it out to people. But
you would have the biggest um. Local heroes would be
publishing pamphlets, So you would read Thomas Jefferson pamphlets, and
(11:45):
you'd read Alexander Hamilton pamphlets. Does he make a name
for himself quickly? No, that happens because of offering to
write a pamphlet to condence Americans that they should no
longer call themselves Britain's, that they should call themselves America.
And you say that in a very understated way. That's
kind of a big deal. The pamphlet Craig is talking
(12:06):
about was written six months before the declaration of independence.
It was common sense after Uncle Tom's cabin. It's the
most influential piece of writing in American history. And he
turns every single thing the British had been saying on
their heads and comes up with an explanation for why
Americans should go it alone, and why it'll be great
to be an American and we'll have this whole continent
(12:27):
and we'll run our own affairs and will stop being
insulted by the British. You see, the great majority of
colonists had come here with real estate contracts that guaranteed
that the only taxes they'd have to pay were local.
But like all good deals, that seemed too good to
be true. It was when the British needed to fund
(12:49):
the Seven Years War the taxes started piling up, the
Stamp Act, the Paper Act, all of these different acts
they pursued. So Tom Payne is tapping into fury, a
sense of betrayal, disrespect, fueled by his own outrage pain
articulates in common sense a grand ambition for the would
(13:10):
be nation. The cause of America is in great measure
the cause of all mankind. I mean that is a
topic sentence. It's no surprise that Bartlett's book of quotations
is full of lines from Thomas Paine, lines said frankly,
I don't have the voice to deliver. Now, who do
(13:31):
I know with a voice sonorous, stentorian and authoritative enough
to read Thomas Paine's words? Wait, wait, don't tell me.
I know who does from NPR and Easy Chicago. This
is wait, wait, don't tell me the NPR news quiz.
You know who could do this? Bill Curtis, the scorekeeper
on Wait, wait, don't tell me. He does a lot
(13:52):
of movie trailers, you know, in a world, But you
want him to read these lines? Guys, we should get
Bill Curtis to read some of these lines. We're going
to do that. It will include me actually saying it
right now, because it will make the audience feel like
you're part of the whole process. And so I called
in a favor. Now, my friend Bill Curtis isn't just
scorekeeper for Weight Weight, where I've been a panelist the
(14:13):
last twenty years. He's an Emmy winning news anchor and,
perhaps most legendarily, the narrator of the movie Anchorman, and
in San Diego, one anchor man was more man than
the rest. His name was Ron Burgundy. So here we
are comin, says we have it in our power to
(14:37):
begin the world over again. Tell it Bill. Society in
every state is a blessing. But government, even in its
best state, is but a necessary evil. In its worst
state that intolerable one can argue with that there is
something very absurd. And supposing a continent to be perpetually
(15:00):
governed by an island goose bumps right. It is not
in numbers, but in unity that our great strength lies.
It's important to remember that the very notion of the
colonies banding together, a central argument of common Sense, was new.
Did the colonies even think they had anything to do
(15:22):
with each other? Though they thought of themselves as Virginians
or New Yorkers, they did not really identify with each other. Yet,
up until common sense, being American wasn't really a concept
or a compliment. The word American at this point met
at cracker Hill Billy that it met someone who is
(15:42):
a piece of trash. Because the English considered all of
their colonies to be outlying, low rent, trashy, vulgar people
who are stupid and ignorant. Paine rebranded the word American
beyond separation from England. Common Sense called for an end
to hereditary monarchy. Back to you Bill in short, monarchy
(16:06):
and succession have LAIDs not this or that kingdom only,
but the world in blood and ashes. At first, Pain
kept his name off the pamphlet. First of all, it
was a very dangerous thing to way it was. It
was treasonous. Does he sign it later? Yes, And he
does take credit for it eventually, And people know who
(16:26):
it is anyway, because it's a very like big small
town at the time. What do the other founding fathers
think when this thing catches fire? Oh, Thomas Jefferson thinks
he's fantastic and they become close friends. A lot of
people attributed it first to John Adams, and at first
he says, I if only I did, And then he
in Pain have a falling out in time in spite
of the bad blood between the two men. Adams reportedly said,
(16:50):
without the pen of the author of Common Sense, the
Sword of Washington would have been raised in vain. But
it's not just what Pain writes, it's how he writes.
Paine understood that since most people at the time were illiterate,
Common Sense had to be written in plain English that
could be read out loud. It's very modern, and he's
(17:12):
writing for broadcast, not for one of these outlier cable
channels where you're preaching to the choir. And you know,
he's he's trying to reach as many people as possible,
and he does right. If there had been no Thomas Paine,
there would have been no what there would have been.
Eventually the United States might have been formed, but it
(17:33):
wouldn't have been unified into a country the way it was,
in the manner that it was. You give him and
common Sense that much credit. Absolutely pain puts his money
where his mouth is, donating the proceeds from Common Sense
to the Continental Army. And shortly after the colonies declare independence,
(17:56):
Payne joins the army, serving as an aide de camp
to General Nathaniel Green. But he doesn't stop writing pains.
Sequel to Common Sense is the American Crisis, a whole
series of pamphlets that serves as a rallying cry during
the conflict's darkest days. Well, this is during the very
(18:17):
long period in which the Americans are losing the Revolutionary War.
He's trying to buck up everybody's spirits. He's writing, all
these other people don't give up on Washington in the war.
There's a spectacular moment where he writes one of his
biggest pieces, and it's the night before they're going to
go from Philadelphia to Trenton, Washington, Washington crossing the Telaware
(18:39):
famous picture, and it's the first real victory of the
American Revolution. And the night before he has them all
listened to pains where it's by candle light. So it's
a very beautiful thing. These are the times that Triman souls.
The submert soldier and the sunshine patriot will in this
crisis shrink from the us of their country. But he
(19:02):
that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of
men and women. Tyranny like hell, is not easily conquered.
Yet we have this consolation with us. That's the harder
the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. So the war
ends and Thomas Payne is riding high. His writing unified
(19:26):
the colonists, roused the armies of our land to victory,
delivered us to freedom. It's a ghoulish hypothetical. But had
he died, you know, say, in three would he would
his reputation be different? Oh? Absolutely, It's a shame in fact,
in fact that die young. They have a pretty corse.
(19:46):
There's the number one prisoner should have done it. But
that's not how history works. So how did Thomas Payne
go from legend to pariah? The answer lies in what
happened after the war. Right closes, then I'm back in
(20:07):
New Rochelle at the Thomas Pain Cottage. So look, it's
not It doesn't look like Monicello or a mountain Vernon
or Hyde Park, but you know it has it has status.
It's got the plaque, so that's a big deal. The
plaque I'm referring to designates this modest domicile a National
(20:28):
Historic Landmark. New York State gave this property to Pain
after the American Revolution in gratitude for his service to
the country. Today it's playing host to a colonial fair,
ready company to the front watch, and some folks are
(20:50):
taking the theme very seriously. You marked slow in cadence,
and you keep the line dressed. You can look to
your left of your eye, but don't move your heads.
That's not allowed. You knows a little about the American Revolution.
What do you know about the American Revolution? I'm obsessed
with it. Obsessed. Well, then surely these two young historians
(21:10):
know something about our episodes undersung Founding Father? So, um,
what do you know about Thomas Paine? He wrote common Sense?
What else did he do? He lived in that house
over there? Is he a founding father? No? Why not?
M that? I don't really know, Okay, but you just
(21:31):
know that he's not abounding father? Now, who is a
founding father? Alexander Hamilton's heart. If there was a big
if there was a musical about Thomas Paine, then maybe
maybe you'd think of him as a founding father. Maybe.
Thank you for that insight, Rachel and Aaron. Now back
to post Revolutionary War America, where Thomas Paine is having
(21:55):
a tough time fitting in. That's partly because of his temperament,
but his rains fall in love with their subjects. You
can't fall in love with this guy. He's too difficult.
He's just too cranky and difficult and nutty. And did
he just have a terrible personality? I think it alternated
because you see him spending time with Jefferson, in time
with Washington, and time with Franklin. You have all these
(22:17):
wonderful stories about him having wonderful times with all of
these people, and so there was something very charming about him,
and but then there was this other side to him
that people found repulsive. So it seems to fled back
and forth. Repulsive is a very strong word, but not
as strong as the words John Adams used to describe him.
He called Pain quote a mongrel between pig and puppy
(22:40):
begotten by a wild boar on a bitch wolf. Actually,
it sounds much better when Bill Curtis says it, Bill amongrel,
the twin pig and puppy begotten by a wild boar
on a bitch wolf. At his core, Thomas Paine is
an agitator and activist, a revolutionary. That's the only setting
(23:03):
he knows. He doesn't know how to turn it off
and talk about soccer or the real Housewives. I mean,
you know, Franklin would have loved dishing about the housewives.
So while the other founding Fathers shift into statesman mode,
setting themselves up with cushy government jobs, Pain is still
on the war path, and that war path leads him
(23:24):
straight back to his home country of England, where he
publishes his next book, In the Rights of Man, he
defends the French Revolution and citizen rights just like common
sense The Rights of Man, which Pain dedicates to George Washington,
becomes an instant best seller. Whatever is my right as
(23:44):
a man is also the right of another, and it
becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess.
While The Rights of Man does Boffo Box Office, becoming
one of the most widely read books of its day,
it doesn't go over so well with the London critics.
It's an attack on the monarchy, and the British accused
(24:06):
him of treason and he has to leave town, and
he gets out just in time. He's tried in absentia.
Pain heads to France for he tries to keep his head.
He goes to France to take part in the French Revolution.
He's actually elected to the National Assembly of Francis French legislator,
(24:27):
even though he can't speak French. Pain is on the
side of the revolutionaries who have deposed King Louis Sixte.
But Pain is also anti capital punishment and the more
extreme revolutionaries, also known as the Jacobins and led by Robespierre,
are crazy about their guillotine. The nonviolent Pain finds himself
(24:48):
denounced as a counter revolutionary and thrown into prison during
what's known as the Reign of Terror. Surely his whole
friends back across the pond can help him out, but
the American government does nothing to help him get out.
And Jefferson could have Washington cult half. No one lifts
a finger because they've sort of had enough of him.
(25:10):
The American ambassador to France, the even less well known
founding father, Governor Morris, who I should point out was
never governor of anything, doesn't do Jacques to help Pain.
Pain gets so fed up he does the unthinkable. He
writes a widely published letter trashing George Washington and as
(25:31):
to you, sir, treacher is in private friendship for so
you have been to me, and that in the day
of danger, and a hypocrite in public life, the world
will be puzzled to decide whether you are an apostate
or an impostor whether you have abandoned good principles or
(25:51):
whether you ever had any. I mean, where does this spleen,
this anger come from. This comes out of them not
helping him when he's in Now the reason folks back
in America weren't helping Pain while he was in that
French prison is partly because of what Pain wrote while
he was in that prison. His most controversial book, The
(26:12):
Age of Reason, its subject religion, My own mind is
my own Church A pretty great line, yes, and pretty inflammatory.
In the Age of Reason, Pain doesn't hold back. He
refutes the divinity of Christ and says this about organized religion.
(26:34):
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish,
appeared to me no other than human inventions set up
to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit.
Publishing The Age of Reason earns Pain a reputation as
(26:54):
an infidel, an atheist, and even an Antichrist. In truth,
Pain's views weren't much different from the other Founding Fathers.
He was a deist, meaning he believed in a supreme
being which created the universe, but which didn't intervene in
human affairs. But the other Founding Fathers were shrewd enough
(27:15):
not to articulate their views and defend the masses. So
he did actually believe in a God, and he wasn't
really an atheist. But he thought that religion had turned people,
so that's why he decided to attack it. But he
did it in a very sort of crazy way where
no one who was a religious person was going to
read this and say, oh, you're right, I should give
(27:35):
up religion. So it was just sort of pointless. So
the great persuader sort of becomes the opposite. Well, it
was a horrible idea because you didn't try to affect
the mass of people, uh and and take away their
belief system. Pain eventually gets out of prison in when,
in one of history's ironies, Robespierre is himself guillotined. By
(28:01):
the time Pain returns to the United States, he's isolated
and miserable, a shell of the man who had helped
inspire the creation of this very country. He's even denied
the right to vote, the rationale being he's no longer
American after his stint in France. In his final days,
he takes increasing comfort in Brandy the drink, not a
(28:25):
woman named Brandy. We know he was a mean drunk,
for one thing, and we know that he couldn't handle
his alcohol well, and we know that's sort of these
basic only from what other people have said that they
found him drunk on the street, and they found him
in these situations. He has a big nose and he
had rosatia, so frequently it's red or is it like,
is it like a gin blossom from drinking? Well it
(28:46):
looks like that, but but it's like, yes, exactly. He's
like so not taking care of himself. His toe nails
are like claws. They're like grown up into claus talents.
Yet those whole cartoons of magpies on the power lines
tonails curled around forget what their names, yea, Heckel and Jacky.
(29:11):
So he's got tonnails like Heckel and Jackal's claws, and
and it's and are they dirty? Oh sure, yeah, no,
he's not taking care of himself and yeah no. It's
just it's very sad. But at the same time it's charted,
you know, you actually see where he alien needs every
single person who might help him. He turns against everyone,
and it's horribly sad. It's not clear how much of
(29:37):
Paine's reputation for drinking was the slanderous work of his enemies,
but one thing is certain. Thomas Paine was uncelebrated when
he died on June eight, eight o nine, in the
New York City neighborhood of Greenwich Village. He was seventy
two years old, so he's taken up to New Rochelle
to be buried, and six people come for the burial,
(29:59):
and his servant woman and her two sons, and someone
who's hired to move the body around and bring the
casket around, and then two neighbors from the area. So
six people show up and and it, I mean, it's pathetic.
Well I would like to give him a proper send off,
(30:21):
and I know just where to do it. Thomas Paine
dropped dead in what's now a legendary piano bar in
the heart of Greenwich Village. The bar was purchased by
a frenchwoman named Marie Dumont back. She wanted to honor
Pain's legacy and the pamphlet series American Crisis, you know,
(30:41):
the one that Washington and his men read for inspiration
during the Revolutionary War, hence the bar's name Marie's Crisis.
You know, Marie's Crisis. Yes, exactly what do you think
of that idea? If we did a memorial for Tom Paine,
a memorial do over at Marie's Crisis, you'd like that? Absolutely,
you would come in, say a few words, deliver a
sort of eulogy. Absolutely terrific. We'll have food, we'll have drink,
(31:04):
what kind of music should we play? You could do
drinking songs from the era, which are very popular. Better yet,
we could sing an original song in our Thomas Payne
memorial do over. And I know just the people who
could write a memorial service show stopper. Hey, it's more okay.
(31:33):
I'm visiting with the brilliant Larry O'Keefe and Nell Benjamin.
They are the ultimate team. They wrote the music and
lyrics for the Broadway musical Legally Blonde. Separately, Nell wrote
the lyrics for Mean Girls and Larry co wrote the
music lyrics in book for Heather's the musical. And they're married.
We've been friends since college. Exciting it's a podcast. They've
(31:58):
agreed to write a big closing number for our Thomas
Paine memorial do over. Let's get down to brass tacks.
Does anything rhyme with pamphlet? Oh damn? Well, you know,
it depends on how pop and hip hop were going
to go and say, you know, John Adams might say
that Tom Pain's laid his pamphlet is the biggest scam yet. Yeah,
(32:19):
and so I intend to slam it. But that's nice.
You know, this does not have to be a somber affair.
I feel like we're looking for something with a little
bit of a popular field. It's hummable, repeatable. We've already
kind of determined we want to sing along that would
be appropriate for a piano bar. Great, so that means
a certain level of ra ra, a certain level of fun. Okay,
(32:43):
they're going to meet some time to write this song.
In the meantime, I'm going to tell you what happened
to Thomas Paine after he died. You may remember biographer
Craig Nelson mentioning Pain's bones. Well, there's a whole story there.
Thomas Paine doesn't have a grape site because his body
was taken from his grave. That's author Best love Joy.
(33:03):
My book is called Rest in Pieces, The Curious Fates
of Famous Corpses. Best writes how an Englishman by the
name of William Cobbett traveled to New Rochelle dawn one
September morning in eighteen nineteen. He dug up Pain's body
out of the ground and packed it into a trunk
and got on a ship to Liverpool with it. He
(33:23):
planned to build a magnificent monument to Pain, for which
he need money. Cobbett planned a big fundraiser for the
monument he wanted to build um and it ended up
being scheduled for the same day that King George the
Third died, which is just really bad timing scheduling conflicts. Aside,
it's not like many Brits back then had any interest
(33:45):
in memorializing Pain. He was still persona on Gratta there.
So Cobbett basically gave up his plans for the monument
and it basically let Thomas Pain's bones um just kind
of molder in a trunk in a corner of his
house for years. When Cobbett himself dies, the trunk of
moldering bones goes on a seemingly endless journey, first to
(34:06):
a neighbor, then to a tailor. They next fall into
the hands of a radical publisher, but at that point
the trail grows not exactly cold, but pretty murky and complicated.
Other people claimed to have some of the bones. One
fan apparently found a piece of his brain and returned
it to New Rochelle, And there's a rumor that Pain's
(34:27):
brain is actually inside a monument on the grounds and
like a hollow portion of the bus, but no one's
really sure where on the farm. It is um and
then throughout the twenty century, bits of Thomas pain were
reported all over Europe and other parts of the world.
There's a rumor that parts of the bones were made
into buttons, but we don't have a lot of detail
about that. Pain's bones were crisped for the mill when
(34:49):
I was meeting with Larry. And now there are rumors
of a leg bone in the ball in the wall
of a tavern in England, and it's probable that the
skull has been located in Wales, but it's now in Australia. Ring.
I'm hearing the phrase where my bones at? I'm hearing
that where my bones from the front to back? Now
as you feeling that, Oh my god, where my bones at?
(35:11):
Pains remains Pain's remain And he does remain, doesn't he?
He does? Finally, the Happy Day arrives our Thomas Paine
Memorial do over at Marie's Crisis. Hey, everybody, welcome. So
(35:31):
sad that you're all here. Uh, just sit tight out
here for a few more minutes. We'll start letting you
in just a few minutes or so. Sound good mourners
line up outside. I have a lot of friends that
have performed here before, but I just I don't really
know the significance. I guess at the front entrance there's
a memorial plaque, says Thomas Paine. So there's a picture
(35:51):
of Thomas Paine, and oh, he died on this site.
This young man is about to learn a lot more.
Good afternoon. I'm Mo Rocca, and welcome to Marie's Crisis
two and ten years ago, where we convene Thomas Paine died.
His obituary read in part he had lived long, done
(36:13):
some good and much harm. That's just not the way
to treat a founding father. And so we gather here
today for a Thomas Paine memorial do over. Please welcome
pain biographer Craig Nelson there. You know, I really I'm
(36:36):
happy to be invited because there were six people at
his funeral, and I guess there's like fifteen here today.
So yeah, it's marking. It's working as promised. Craig Nelson
delivers the eulogy. Thomas Paine's comment sense just beginning by
asking a couple of questions, why should a continent be
ruled by an island? And why should the leader of
(36:56):
our government be the child of the person who had
the job for him. And it ended with we have
it in our power to begin the world over again.
The crowd is riveted, especially when Craig starts talking about
Thomas Paine's bones. So right now, at this moment, there's
a man on his deathbed and he's saying, and to you,
my darling daughter, I bequeathed that tibia of the immortal
(37:18):
top is very got. Craig, your energy like it's amazing.
Don't ever do cocaine. Now. If we were doing this
back in eighteen o nine, we might have thought to
bring a mutton roast, but instead we brought a comedian,
one of the very best, to roast pain, my buddy
(37:40):
from the Daily Show. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my
friend Louis Black. I never really thought that my career
would lead me to this moment. I really expected much
more of myself than than to be roasting and dead man.
(38:01):
But that's the way it is. What is it with pamphlets?
You know what else? They called pamphlet writers? They call
them lazy. Couldn't write more than twenty pages. I guess
Thomas Paine couldn't write all the time he needed to
save time for sleeping and drinking and annoying the shoot
out of people at parties. So now Pain isn't exactly
(38:21):
remembered his a legend. I mean Ronald Reagan beat the
Soviets and got an airport in d C named after him.
What do you get a gay bar in the west
village named Amter? Did you feel that that was Thomas
Paine rolling around his grave? Oh wait, that's right. They
stole this bone. People eight people drank and then it
(38:46):
was time for the finale. And now we end our
Thomas Paine Memorial redo with what else? A production number
written by Nell Benjamin and Laurence o'keith, both tarmist head
(39:06):
Thomas b Fase your glass animals try to stay by
every Americantic and Jane should drink to Thomas Young Tom
wrote that all kings are tyrants and King George is
a stupid brutish man, laid the world in ashes and
(39:28):
screw to all kings and fascists. Time to kick them out,
morn as we can to stay Thomas. His consense was
on the chain. He declared, we to build the world
game with to Thomas chain, so our founding fathers King
(39:52):
to power but poor Tom could never rise at high.
He was brute and melancholic and a world class out
a whole weren't an extra time, said by old Thomas
Stain Thomas Pain. Why Andy Stay his name always Hunt
(40:13):
keeping dragas to his name, the drink everyone. And then
the French began that revolution. They said Tommy's cunning head
was keeping killed. But Tom said, don't kill your kings.
French replied, are you kidding the britt for right? You
are a rocomis you? Old Thomas Stay Thomas Day? But
(40:39):
the course his kids wasn't man, but the sleamishness and
our friendsness thing stay drink saggling. Thomas died and his
bones were sold and scattered, but he lives in us
to this very day. Both his love of liberty and
(41:02):
his weird misanthropy are part tired in our nation. Spy,
Oh Thomas Day, Thomas Thomas Pay, Such shame. After Painting
went down the drains tonight. We shall sing your name,
little dame to drink too, Thomas Thomas Thomas Day, such
(41:29):
a shame. After Pay went down the drains to night,
we shall sing your name day we drink to Thomas
Space brilliance once it's timeer changing noble to come point.
I'm ratings on Thomer one, frustrating and hard though Day,
Thomas Day, Thomas Painting, Thomas Thomas Bay Next time on Mobituaries,
(42:05):
the pioneering Black Congressman of Reconstruction. Reconstruction is a moment
of incredible hopefulness. When Frederick Douglas saw the portrait of
Hiram Revels, he said, at last the black man has
represented something other than a monkey. I certainly hope you
enjoyed this mobituary. If you would please rate and review
(42:27):
our podcast. You can also follow Mobituaries on Facebook and Instagram,
and you can follow me on Twitter at mo Rocca.
For more great content about Thomas Payne, please visit mobituaries
dot com. You can subscribe to Mobituaries wherever you get
your podcasts. This episode of Mobituaries was produced by Gideon
(42:48):
Evans and Megan Marcus. Our team of producers also includes
Harry Wood and me Morocca. It was edited by Meg
Dalton and engineered by Dan de Zula and r. Kentry.
Additional editing by Sam Egan and David Fox. Special thanks
to the great Bill Curtis Donna La Pietra, Meghan Dietree,
(43:09):
Michael Crowder, Noura Slanimski, Randy Taylor, and the owners of
Marie's Crisis, Howard Bragman, John May, Paul Miles, Don Ralph,
Lawrence o'flahaven, Emma Cortland, Mindy Eisenberg's Dark, the Thomas Paine
Cottage and all Wise Meterary indispensable support from Genie Staneski,
(43:29):
Richard Rohrer and everyone at CBS news Radio. The show
stopper Drink to Thomas Payne was composed by Lawrence o'keith
and Nell Benjamin. Our knock Um Dead. Cast of singers
and musicians included Jane Bernard, Matthew Silva, Rachel Flynn, Brook Kintana,
and Jacob Reinstra. Our theme music is written by Daniel
(43:51):
Hart and, as always, undying thanks to Rand Morrison and
John carp without whom Mobituaries couldn't live. We view now
with more of Bill Curtis as John Adams insulting Thomas Payne.
All Right, Okay, a mongrel between pig and puppy begotten
(44:13):
by a wild boar on a bitch wolf amongrel between
pig and puppy begotten by a wild boar on a
bitch wolf. A mongrel between pig and puppy begotten by
a wild boar on a bitch wolf. Hi, it's mo
(44:39):
If you're enjoying Mobituaries the podcast, may I invite you
to check out Mobituaries the book. It's chock full of
stories not in the podcast. Celebrities who put their butts
on the line, sports teams that threw in the towel
for good, forgotten fashions, defunct diagnoses presidential candidacies that crater whole,
(45:00):
countries that want to put and dragons, Yes, dragons, you see.
People used to believe the dragons were real until just
get the book. You can order Mobituaries the Book from
any online bookseller, or stop by your local bookstore and
look for me when I come to your city. Tour
information and lots more at mobituaries dot com
All right, It's a sunny Saturday afternoon in April, and
I've driven up to New Rochelle, New York, a suburb
just north of New York City. Get the park three
blocks away. I mean, they're people are showing up for
this there. I'm here for a celebration. A lot of
activity here, a lot of excitement. Really more of a commemoration.
(00:24):
You know. The mayor is going to be here, dignitary.
You see, everyone has gathered here today to honor the
person that put New Rochelle on the map. You travel
out of state and you tell something. While I live
in Rochelle, the first thing they'll tell you his ome
The Dick Van Dyke Show, Dick Van Dyke Show, Starry
(00:45):
Dick Van Dyke. Beloved actor Dick Van Dyke played comedy
writer Rob Petrie. On The Dick Van Dyke Show. A
young Mary Tyler Moore played his wife, Laura. Would you
stage your name in the please where it's Mrs Laura
Petrie One for a Bonnie Meta Road, Michelle, New York.
That's right. The fictional couple lived in New Rochelle, and
(01:08):
today the townspeople are dedicating the real Bonnie Meta Road
to the hit nineteen sixty series You can take a
picture in the TV love to do that with Nancy
Ann with you, Dick Van Dyke, show creator nineties seven
year old comedy legend Carl Reiner even skyped in for
the occasion. Mccar he's wearing Argyle's sweater. He looks great. Actually,
(01:33):
the reason the show was set in New Rochelle when
Reiner was just starting out, he and his family lived here.
Every episode has a little me and my wife. Now,
as much as I loved Rob and Laura Petrie, there's
another person, a real person, who lived in New Rochelle
and who was pretty important other than Carl Renner, you
(01:53):
know who else is from here for a while. Andrew
Mitchell Andrewell of Fine. Oh, let's say I'm trying to
thank jowing a blank. Well, let's um, he wrote pamphlets, pamphlets.
Carl Reiner knows who I'm talking about. No more important
(02:13):
name in our history than Tom Paine. Yes, Thomas Payne.
He didn't just write pamphlets with his pen. He helped
birth this very country. Oh my god, could right. You're
a great writer, and you acknowledge that he was a
great writer as well, Oh well, let's say high squibble,
he wrote. Yes, Payne's pamphlet Common Sense is not only
(02:37):
one of the best selling publications in American history, it
was the intellectual spark that lit the fuse for the
American Revolution. Without him, there might not be a United States. Yet,
when Payne died, only six people showed up at his funeral.
The paltry opit that was published at the time summed
up his life in this line, he had lived long,
(03:01):
did some good and much harm. Even after Pain died,
he couldn't rest in peace. The guy's bones were stolen.
And was Thomas Paine a founding father? I don't know
the answer that was in this episode? Will tell you
why Pain matters, and we'll give him the send off
(03:21):
he deserves, complete with an original Mobits production number without
the brain. Make no mistake, no Pain, No Gain of
Independence from CBS Sunday Morning and Simon and Schuster. I'm
(03:44):
Morocca and this is mobituaries. This mobit Thomas Paine June eight,
eight o nine, death of a forgotten founding father to
(04:10):
pactically started this whole country. He's dead. What are you
learning her about? Dead people? For all I want you
to do is teach your i'd act with life people.
Education is a very difficult thing to control, Harry. One
thing that was the incomparable comedian Judy Holiday teaching her
bullying boyfriend a thing or two in the film Born Yesterday.
(04:33):
The scenes funny because it's true many of us have
heard of Thomas Paine but don't really know what he did.
This is an important guy, right yes before scientific polls.
One way to measure public opinion, A proxy for it anyway,
might be pamphlet sales. Anthony Salvonto heads up the CBS
(04:53):
News polling unit. I asked him to help us gauge
how well recognized or unrecognized Thomas Payne is as a
founding father. The polling unit called a random sampling of
a thousand people. The way this one is asked is
you know which of these people as a founding father?
And Thomas Payne's name was was put out there. The
(05:15):
choices were Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Payne, Frederick Douglas Fitzgerald, Thomas Grant.
The third who you know as Oh you got me?
Anthony was the president on the TV show Scandal with
Kerry Washington. Come on, thank you. Other choices included James
Tiberius Kirk, the Captain of the Enterprise, Colonel Sanders, Will Smith,
Frank Sinatra, and I don't know. And what were the results. Well,
(05:38):
if Frank Sinatra comes in at one percent, old blue
eyes might not be happy with that. But here's the
most striking result. Forty three percent selected Abraham Lincoln as
the one founding father on the list. And now, obviously
he comes some years after the people we think of
as founding father. In fact, four score and seven years
(06:01):
later exactly, Sir, just of respondents correctly named Thomas Paine.
So the recognition of Pain as a founding father is
mixed at best, even if most of us recognize the
man's words, I know, and it's amazing. People may have
known that he said these are the times at time
and souls. They may know that he said, we have
(06:22):
it in our power to begin the world over again.
They may know that he wrote common sense, but they
don't really know who he is. That's Pain. Biographer Craig D. Nelson,
not to be confused with actor Craig T. Nelson. A
little bit of housekeeping, how often are you asked if
you start in the sitcom coach all the time, Yeah,
all the time. In fact, I think I'd help me
(06:44):
launch my career that people thought I was coached, so
they would buy the book and then I chop at
autographics and they'd be horribly disappointed. But to they already paid.
But good point. You got him in the tent. Why not?
Why did you want to write about Tom Paine? Well,
I had this fun He's a little article that talked
about how, ten years after he died, his biggest fan
(07:04):
went to New Rochelle and dug his bones up. So today,
if you do a Thomas Pain book and you will
find this out when this podcast comes out, people will
contact you to see if you would like to buy
a bone. And have you ever touched one of Thomas
Pain's bones? Which one? Which bones? I think it was
like a finger. But someone showed up and tried to
sell me something. And I want to assure listeners that
(07:25):
we will talk about what happened to his bones later
in the episode. But suffice it to say, Craig, this
kind of devotion is remarkable. When Thomas Pain was alive,
he was the most famous person in the world. He
knew everyone, he knew Jefferson, he knew Washington, he knew Robespierre,
he knew I mean, it's it's astonishing who is associated.
And he'd come a very long way as opposed to
(07:47):
most of the other founding fathers who came from money.
Paine was born in sevente into humble circumstances in England.
He's like the work class founder. What inspires him to
even come to America. He had the most horrible life
you could possibly have in England. His mother was an
(08:08):
Anglican named Francis Cock, who married a Quaker named Joseph Payne,
thus making her anyway. Joseph was a staymaker another way
of saying. He made corsets that were a combination like
a boostier and a girdle, this giant, one piece thing
that women wore, right but anyway, so that's what he did.
(08:30):
Young Thomas drops out of school at twelve. A few
years later, when Britain goes to war with France, Payne
seeks adventure on the high seas as a privateer, capturing
enemy ships for the British government. It looks like he
made quite a bit of money doing that, and he
ended up taking you know, junior year abroad. He ended
(08:50):
up as a twenty year old man wandering around London
taking classes, basically giving himself the education that the middle
class founders are getting in schools. He got himself. He
learned how to write, he learned all about the classics.
So Thomas Payne is like a sponge. He's absorbing us. Yes,
he has bills to pay, though, so he takes up
(09:11):
his father's trade of staymaking. But things are too tight.
Pain can't make ends meet and soon falls into debt.
And this is where things really start going south. And
so you see Tommy's pain moving from town to town,
one step ahead of his creditors. And his personal life
is a disaster. He has one wife who dies in
(09:32):
Childsworth and loses the child too. He has another wife
he's separated from. He tries to be a staymaker, he
tries to be a grocer, he tries to be a
tax collector, and fails at all of these things. It's
during his time as a tax collector that Paine first
catches the activist bog the country's excise officers another way
of saying, tax collectors hadn't received a raise in over
(09:54):
a century, and Pain felt they were overdue. So he
writes one of his very first pamphle, it's demanding better pay.
It doesn't go over so well. He's fired from his
job and forced to sell off most of his possessions.
So personally and professionally he's kind of a wreck. There's
no place to go but to get on a boat.
Luckily for Paine, he had made a valuable connection in London.
(10:18):
Benjamin Franklin, who was representing colonial interests in England, met
Paine and was impressed by the young firebrand. Benjamin Franklin
called him his adopted political son, and so, carrying a
letter of recommendation from Franklin, Thomas Paine sets sail for
the New World. But the voyage across the Atlantic isn't easy.
(10:40):
Paine almost dies from Typhus. He arrives none too soon
in November of seventeen seventy four, lands in Philadelphia, where
Franklin's from, and until the place to go. Yeah, this
is a big city in America at that moment, and
almost immediately he becomes the editor of Pennsylvania Magazine. Paine
builds Pennsylvania Magazine into the widest circulating in the colonies,
(11:04):
but it's with a different kind of periodical that he
makes his biggest impact. Pain was a big, big, big
hottie in the pamphlet world. Yes, pamphlets were hot in
the seventeen seventies. What's the deal with pamphlets because I
associate pamphlets with pre nine eleven, when people could roam
(11:24):
around airports with these things, handing them to you when arrived,
saying please join my group. So pamphlet is a little
tiny essay. They were like ten pages maybe tops, and
they were just printed on a great big broadsheet and
then folded up and heads it out to people. But
you would have the biggest um. Local heroes would be
publishing pamphlets, So you would read Thomas Jefferson pamphlets, and
(11:45):
you'd read Alexander Hamilton pamphlets. Does he make a name
for himself quickly? No, that happens because of offering to
write a pamphlet to condence Americans that they should no
longer call themselves Britain's, that they should call themselves America.
And you say that in a very understated way. That's
kind of a big deal. The pamphlet Craig is talking
(12:06):
about was written six months before the declaration of independence.
It was common sense after Uncle Tom's cabin. It's the
most influential piece of writing in American history. And he
turns every single thing the British had been saying on
their heads and comes up with an explanation for why
Americans should go it alone, and why it'll be great
to be an American and we'll have this whole continent
(12:27):
and we'll run our own affairs and will stop being
insulted by the British. You see, the great majority of
colonists had come here with real estate contracts that guaranteed
that the only taxes they'd have to pay were local.
But like all good deals, that seemed too good to
be true. It was when the British needed to fund
(12:49):
the Seven Years War the taxes started piling up, the
Stamp Act, the Paper Act, all of these different acts
they pursued. So Tom Payne is tapping into fury, a
sense of betrayal, disrespect, fueled by his own outrage pain
articulates in common sense a grand ambition for the would
(13:10):
be nation. The cause of America is in great measure
the cause of all mankind. I mean that is a
topic sentence. It's no surprise that Bartlett's book of quotations
is full of lines from Thomas Paine, lines said frankly,
I don't have the voice to deliver. Now, who do
(13:31):
I know with a voice sonorous, stentorian and authoritative enough
to read Thomas Paine's words? Wait, wait, don't tell me.
I know who does from NPR and Easy Chicago. This
is wait, wait, don't tell me the NPR news quiz.
You know who could do this? Bill Curtis, the scorekeeper
on Wait, wait, don't tell me. He does a lot
(13:52):
of movie trailers, you know, in a world, But you
want him to read these lines? Guys, we should get
Bill Curtis to read some of these lines. We're going
to do that. It will include me actually saying it
right now, because it will make the audience feel like
you're part of the whole process. And so I called
in a favor. Now, my friend Bill Curtis isn't just
scorekeeper for Weight Weight, where I've been a panelist the
(14:13):
last twenty years. He's an Emmy winning news anchor and,
perhaps most legendarily, the narrator of the movie Anchorman, and
in San Diego, one anchor man was more man than
the rest. His name was Ron Burgundy. So here we
are comin, says we have it in our power to
(14:37):
begin the world over again. Tell it Bill. Society in
every state is a blessing. But government, even in its
best state, is but a necessary evil. In its worst
state that intolerable one can argue with that there is
something very absurd. And supposing a continent to be perpetually
(15:00):
governed by an island goose bumps right. It is not
in numbers, but in unity that our great strength lies.
It's important to remember that the very notion of the
colonies banding together, a central argument of common Sense, was new.
Did the colonies even think they had anything to do
(15:22):
with each other? Though they thought of themselves as Virginians
or New Yorkers, they did not really identify with each other. Yet,
up until common sense, being American wasn't really a concept
or a compliment. The word American at this point met
at cracker Hill Billy that it met someone who is
(15:42):
a piece of trash. Because the English considered all of
their colonies to be outlying, low rent, trashy, vulgar people
who are stupid and ignorant. Paine rebranded the word American
beyond separation from England. Common Sense called for an end
to hereditary monarchy. Back to you Bill in short, monarchy
(16:06):
and succession have LAIDs not this or that kingdom only,
but the world in blood and ashes. At first, Pain
kept his name off the pamphlet. First of all, it
was a very dangerous thing to way it was. It
was treasonous. Does he sign it later? Yes, And he
does take credit for it eventually, And people know who
(16:26):
it is anyway, because it's a very like big small
town at the time. What do the other founding fathers
think when this thing catches fire? Oh, Thomas Jefferson thinks
he's fantastic and they become close friends. A lot of
people attributed it first to John Adams, and at first
he says, I if only I did, And then he
in Pain have a falling out in time in spite
of the bad blood between the two men. Adams reportedly said,
(16:50):
without the pen of the author of Common Sense, the
Sword of Washington would have been raised in vain. But
it's not just what Pain writes, it's how he writes.
Paine understood that since most people at the time were illiterate,
Common Sense had to be written in plain English that
could be read out loud. It's very modern, and he's
(17:12):
writing for broadcast, not for one of these outlier cable
channels where you're preaching to the choir. And you know,
he's he's trying to reach as many people as possible,
and he does right. If there had been no Thomas Paine,
there would have been no what there would have been.
Eventually the United States might have been formed, but it
(17:33):
wouldn't have been unified into a country the way it was,
in the manner that it was. You give him and
common Sense that much credit. Absolutely pain puts his money
where his mouth is, donating the proceeds from Common Sense
to the Continental Army. And shortly after the colonies declare independence,
(17:56):
Payne joins the army, serving as an aide de camp
to General Nathaniel Green. But he doesn't stop writing pains.
Sequel to Common Sense is the American Crisis, a whole
series of pamphlets that serves as a rallying cry during
the conflict's darkest days. Well, this is during the very
(18:17):
long period in which the Americans are losing the Revolutionary War.
He's trying to buck up everybody's spirits. He's writing, all
these other people don't give up on Washington in the war.
There's a spectacular moment where he writes one of his
biggest pieces, and it's the night before they're going to
go from Philadelphia to Trenton, Washington, Washington crossing the Telaware
(18:39):
famous picture, and it's the first real victory of the
American Revolution. And the night before he has them all
listened to pains where it's by candle light. So it's
a very beautiful thing. These are the times that Triman souls.
The submert soldier and the sunshine patriot will in this
crisis shrink from the us of their country. But he
(19:02):
that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of
men and women. Tyranny like hell, is not easily conquered.
Yet we have this consolation with us. That's the harder
the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. So the war
ends and Thomas Payne is riding high. His writing unified
(19:26):
the colonists, roused the armies of our land to victory,
delivered us to freedom. It's a ghoulish hypothetical. But had
he died, you know, say, in three would he would
his reputation be different? Oh? Absolutely, It's a shame in fact,
in fact that die young. They have a pretty corse.
(19:46):
There's the number one prisoner should have done it. But
that's not how history works. So how did Thomas Payne
go from legend to pariah? The answer lies in what
happened after the war. Right closes, then I'm back in
(20:07):
New Rochelle at the Thomas Pain Cottage. So look, it's
not It doesn't look like Monicello or a mountain Vernon
or Hyde Park, but you know it has it has status.
It's got the plaque, so that's a big deal. The
plaque I'm referring to designates this modest domicile a National
(20:28):
Historic Landmark. New York State gave this property to Pain
after the American Revolution in gratitude for his service to
the country. Today it's playing host to a colonial fair,
ready company to the front watch, and some folks are
(20:50):
taking the theme very seriously. You marked slow in cadence,
and you keep the line dressed. You can look to
your left of your eye, but don't move your heads.
That's not allowed. You knows a little about the American Revolution.
What do you know about the American Revolution? I'm obsessed
with it. Obsessed. Well, then surely these two young historians
(21:10):
know something about our episodes undersung Founding Father? So, um,
what do you know about Thomas Paine? He wrote common Sense?
What else did he do? He lived in that house
over there? Is he a founding father? No? Why not?
M that? I don't really know, Okay, but you just
(21:31):
know that he's not abounding father? Now, who is a
founding father? Alexander Hamilton's heart. If there was a big
if there was a musical about Thomas Paine, then maybe
maybe you'd think of him as a founding father. Maybe.
Thank you for that insight, Rachel and Aaron. Now back
to post Revolutionary War America, where Thomas Paine is having
(21:55):
a tough time fitting in. That's partly because of his temperament,
but his rains fall in love with their subjects. You
can't fall in love with this guy. He's too difficult.
He's just too cranky and difficult and nutty. And did
he just have a terrible personality? I think it alternated
because you see him spending time with Jefferson, in time
with Washington, and time with Franklin. You have all these
(22:17):
wonderful stories about him having wonderful times with all of
these people, and so there was something very charming about him,
and but then there was this other side to him
that people found repulsive. So it seems to fled back
and forth. Repulsive is a very strong word, but not
as strong as the words John Adams used to describe him.
He called Pain quote a mongrel between pig and puppy
(22:40):
begotten by a wild boar on a bitch wolf. Actually,
it sounds much better when Bill Curtis says it, Bill amongrel,
the twin pig and puppy begotten by a wild boar
on a bitch wolf. At his core, Thomas Paine is
an agitator and activist, a revolutionary. That's the only setting
(23:03):
he knows. He doesn't know how to turn it off
and talk about soccer or the real Housewives. I mean,
you know, Franklin would have loved dishing about the housewives.
So while the other founding Fathers shift into statesman mode,
setting themselves up with cushy government jobs, Pain is still
on the war path, and that war path leads him
(23:24):
straight back to his home country of England, where he
publishes his next book, In the Rights of Man, he
defends the French Revolution and citizen rights just like common
sense The Rights of Man, which Pain dedicates to George Washington,
becomes an instant best seller. Whatever is my right as
(23:44):
a man is also the right of another, and it
becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess.
While The Rights of Man does Boffo Box Office, becoming
one of the most widely read books of its day,
it doesn't go over so well with the London critics.
It's an attack on the monarchy, and the British accused
(24:06):
him of treason and he has to leave town, and
he gets out just in time. He's tried in absentia.
Pain heads to France for he tries to keep his head.
He goes to France to take part in the French Revolution.
He's actually elected to the National Assembly of Francis French legislator,
(24:27):
even though he can't speak French. Pain is on the
side of the revolutionaries who have deposed King Louis Sixte.
But Pain is also anti capital punishment and the more
extreme revolutionaries, also known as the Jacobins and led by Robespierre,
are crazy about their guillotine. The nonviolent Pain finds himself
(24:48):
denounced as a counter revolutionary and thrown into prison during
what's known as the Reign of Terror. Surely his whole
friends back across the pond can help him out, but
the American government does nothing to help him get out.
And Jefferson could have Washington cult half. No one lifts
a finger because they've sort of had enough of him.
(25:10):
The American ambassador to France, the even less well known
founding father, Governor Morris, who I should point out was
never governor of anything, doesn't do Jacques to help Pain.
Pain gets so fed up he does the unthinkable. He
writes a widely published letter trashing George Washington and as
(25:31):
to you, sir, treacher is in private friendship for so
you have been to me, and that in the day
of danger, and a hypocrite in public life, the world
will be puzzled to decide whether you are an apostate
or an impostor whether you have abandoned good principles or
(25:51):
whether you ever had any. I mean, where does this spleen,
this anger come from. This comes out of them not
helping him when he's in Now the reason folks back
in America weren't helping Pain while he was in that
French prison is partly because of what Pain wrote while
he was in that prison. His most controversial book, The
(26:12):
Age of Reason, its subject religion, My own mind is
my own Church A pretty great line, yes, and pretty inflammatory.
In the Age of Reason, Pain doesn't hold back. He
refutes the divinity of Christ and says this about organized religion.
(26:34):
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish,
appeared to me no other than human inventions set up
to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit.
Publishing The Age of Reason earns Pain a reputation as
(26:54):
an infidel, an atheist, and even an Antichrist. In truth,
Pain's views weren't much different from the other Founding Fathers.
He was a deist, meaning he believed in a supreme
being which created the universe, but which didn't intervene in
human affairs. But the other Founding Fathers were shrewd enough
(27:15):
not to articulate their views and defend the masses. So
he did actually believe in a God, and he wasn't
really an atheist. But he thought that religion had turned people,
so that's why he decided to attack it. But he
did it in a very sort of crazy way where
no one who was a religious person was going to
read this and say, oh, you're right, I should give
(27:35):
up religion. So it was just sort of pointless. So
the great persuader sort of becomes the opposite. Well, it
was a horrible idea because you didn't try to affect
the mass of people, uh and and take away their
belief system. Pain eventually gets out of prison in when,
in one of history's ironies, Robespierre is himself guillotined. By
(28:01):
the time Pain returns to the United States, he's isolated
and miserable, a shell of the man who had helped
inspire the creation of this very country. He's even denied
the right to vote, the rationale being he's no longer
American after his stint in France. In his final days,
he takes increasing comfort in Brandy the drink, not a
(28:25):
woman named Brandy. We know he was a mean drunk,
for one thing, and we know that he couldn't handle
his alcohol well, and we know that's sort of these
basic only from what other people have said that they
found him drunk on the street, and they found him
in these situations. He has a big nose and he
had rosatia, so frequently it's red or is it like,
is it like a gin blossom from drinking? Well it
(28:46):
looks like that, but but it's like, yes, exactly. He's
like so not taking care of himself. His toe nails
are like claws. They're like grown up into claus talents.
Yet those whole cartoons of magpies on the power lines
tonails curled around forget what their names, yea, Heckel and Jacky.
(29:11):
So he's got tonnails like Heckel and Jackal's claws, and
and it's and are they dirty? Oh sure, yeah, no,
he's not taking care of himself and yeah no. It's
just it's very sad. But at the same time it's charted,
you know, you actually see where he alien needs every
single person who might help him. He turns against everyone,
and it's horribly sad. It's not clear how much of
(29:37):
Paine's reputation for drinking was the slanderous work of his enemies,
but one thing is certain. Thomas Paine was uncelebrated when
he died on June eight, eight o nine, in the
New York City neighborhood of Greenwich Village. He was seventy
two years old, so he's taken up to New Rochelle
to be buried, and six people come for the burial,
(29:59):
and his servant woman and her two sons, and someone
who's hired to move the body around and bring the
casket around, and then two neighbors from the area. So
six people show up and and it, I mean, it's pathetic.
Well I would like to give him a proper send off,
(30:21):
and I know just where to do it. Thomas Paine
dropped dead in what's now a legendary piano bar in
the heart of Greenwich Village. The bar was purchased by
a frenchwoman named Marie Dumont back. She wanted to honor
Pain's legacy and the pamphlet series American Crisis, you know,
(30:41):
the one that Washington and his men read for inspiration
during the Revolutionary War, hence the bar's name Marie's Crisis.
You know, Marie's Crisis. Yes, exactly what do you think
of that idea? If we did a memorial for Tom Paine,
a memorial do over at Marie's Crisis, you'd like that? Absolutely,
you would come in, say a few words, deliver a
sort of eulogy. Absolutely terrific. We'll have food, we'll have drink,
(31:04):
what kind of music should we play? You could do
drinking songs from the era, which are very popular. Better yet,
we could sing an original song in our Thomas Payne
memorial do over. And I know just the people who
could write a memorial service show stopper. Hey, it's more okay.
(31:33):
I'm visiting with the brilliant Larry O'Keefe and Nell Benjamin.
They are the ultimate team. They wrote the music and
lyrics for the Broadway musical Legally Blonde. Separately, Nell wrote
the lyrics for Mean Girls and Larry co wrote the
music lyrics in book for Heather's the musical. And they're married.
We've been friends since college. Exciting it's a podcast. They've
(31:58):
agreed to write a big closing number for our Thomas
Paine memorial do over. Let's get down to brass tacks.
Does anything rhyme with pamphlet? Oh damn? Well, you know,
it depends on how pop and hip hop were going
to go and say, you know, John Adams might say
that Tom Pain's laid his pamphlet is the biggest scam yet. Yeah,
(32:19):
and so I intend to slam it. But that's nice.
You know, this does not have to be a somber affair.
I feel like we're looking for something with a little
bit of a popular field. It's hummable, repeatable. We've already
kind of determined we want to sing along that would
be appropriate for a piano bar. Great, so that means
a certain level of ra ra, a certain level of fun. Okay,
(32:43):
they're going to meet some time to write this song.
In the meantime, I'm going to tell you what happened
to Thomas Paine after he died. You may remember biographer
Craig Nelson mentioning Pain's bones. Well, there's a whole story there.
Thomas Paine doesn't have a grape site because his body
was taken from his grave. That's author Best love Joy.
(33:03):
My book is called Rest in Pieces, The Curious Fates
of Famous Corpses. Best writes how an Englishman by the
name of William Cobbett traveled to New Rochelle dawn one
September morning in eighteen nineteen. He dug up Pain's body
out of the ground and packed it into a trunk
and got on a ship to Liverpool with it. He
(33:23):
planned to build a magnificent monument to Pain, for which
he need money. Cobbett planned a big fundraiser for the
monument he wanted to build um and it ended up
being scheduled for the same day that King George the
Third died, which is just really bad timing scheduling conflicts. Aside,
it's not like many Brits back then had any interest
(33:45):
in memorializing Pain. He was still persona on Gratta there.
So Cobbett basically gave up his plans for the monument
and it basically let Thomas Pain's bones um just kind
of molder in a trunk in a corner of his
house for years. When Cobbett himself dies, the trunk of
moldering bones goes on a seemingly endless journey, first to
(34:06):
a neighbor, then to a tailor. They next fall into
the hands of a radical publisher, but at that point
the trail grows not exactly cold, but pretty murky and complicated.
Other people claimed to have some of the bones. One
fan apparently found a piece of his brain and returned
it to New Rochelle, And there's a rumor that Pain's
(34:27):
brain is actually inside a monument on the grounds and
like a hollow portion of the bus, but no one's
really sure where on the farm. It is um and
then throughout the twenty century, bits of Thomas pain were
reported all over Europe and other parts of the world.
There's a rumor that parts of the bones were made
into buttons, but we don't have a lot of detail
about that. Pain's bones were crisped for the mill when
(34:49):
I was meeting with Larry. And now there are rumors
of a leg bone in the ball in the wall
of a tavern in England, and it's probable that the
skull has been located in Wales, but it's now in Australia. Ring.
I'm hearing the phrase where my bones at? I'm hearing
that where my bones from the front to back? Now
as you feeling that, Oh my god, where my bones at?
(35:11):
Pains remains Pain's remain And he does remain, doesn't he?
He does? Finally, the Happy Day arrives our Thomas Paine
Memorial do over at Marie's Crisis. Hey, everybody, welcome. So
(35:31):
sad that you're all here. Uh, just sit tight out
here for a few more minutes. We'll start letting you
in just a few minutes or so. Sound good mourners
line up outside. I have a lot of friends that
have performed here before, but I just I don't really
know the significance. I guess at the front entrance there's
a memorial plaque, says Thomas Paine. So there's a picture
(35:51):
of Thomas Paine, and oh, he died on this site.
This young man is about to learn a lot more.
Good afternoon. I'm Mo Rocca, and welcome to Marie's Crisis
two and ten years ago, where we convene Thomas Paine died.
His obituary read in part he had lived long, done
(36:13):
some good and much harm. That's just not the way
to treat a founding father. And so we gather here
today for a Thomas Paine memorial do over. Please welcome
pain biographer Craig Nelson there. You know, I really I'm
(36:36):
happy to be invited because there were six people at
his funeral, and I guess there's like fifteen here today.
So yeah, it's marking. It's working as promised. Craig Nelson
delivers the eulogy. Thomas Paine's comment sense just beginning by
asking a couple of questions, why should a continent be
ruled by an island? And why should the leader of
(36:56):
our government be the child of the person who had
the job for him. And it ended with we have
it in our power to begin the world over again.
The crowd is riveted, especially when Craig starts talking about
Thomas Paine's bones. So right now, at this moment, there's
a man on his deathbed and he's saying, and to you,
my darling daughter, I bequeathed that tibia of the immortal
(37:18):
top is very got. Craig, your energy like it's amazing.
Don't ever do cocaine. Now. If we were doing this
back in eighteen o nine, we might have thought to
bring a mutton roast, but instead we brought a comedian,
one of the very best, to roast pain, my buddy
(37:40):
from the Daily Show. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my
friend Louis Black. I never really thought that my career
would lead me to this moment. I really expected much
more of myself than than to be roasting and dead man.
(38:01):
But that's the way it is. What is it with pamphlets?
You know what else? They called pamphlet writers? They call
them lazy. Couldn't write more than twenty pages. I guess
Thomas Paine couldn't write all the time he needed to
save time for sleeping and drinking and annoying the shoot
out of people at parties. So now Pain isn't exactly
(38:21):
remembered his a legend. I mean Ronald Reagan beat the
Soviets and got an airport in d C named after him.
What do you get a gay bar in the west
village named Amter? Did you feel that that was Thomas
Paine rolling around his grave? Oh wait, that's right. They
stole this bone. People eight people drank and then it
(38:46):
was time for the finale. And now we end our
Thomas Paine Memorial redo with what else? A production number
written by Nell Benjamin and Laurence o'keith, both tarmist head
(39:06):
Thomas b Fase your glass animals try to stay by
every Americantic and Jane should drink to Thomas Young Tom
wrote that all kings are tyrants and King George is
a stupid brutish man, laid the world in ashes and
(39:28):
screw to all kings and fascists. Time to kick them out,
morn as we can to stay Thomas. His consense was
on the chain. He declared, we to build the world
game with to Thomas chain, so our founding fathers King
(39:52):
to power but poor Tom could never rise at high.
He was brute and melancholic and a world class out
a whole weren't an extra time, said by old Thomas
Stain Thomas Pain. Why Andy Stay his name always Hunt
(40:13):
keeping dragas to his name, the drink everyone. And then
the French began that revolution. They said Tommy's cunning head
was keeping killed. But Tom said, don't kill your kings.
French replied, are you kidding the britt for right? You
are a rocomis you? Old Thomas Stay Thomas Day? But
(40:39):
the course his kids wasn't man, but the sleamishness and
our friendsness thing stay drink saggling. Thomas died and his
bones were sold and scattered, but he lives in us
to this very day. Both his love of liberty and
(41:02):
his weird misanthropy are part tired in our nation. Spy,
Oh Thomas Day, Thomas Thomas Pay, Such shame. After Painting
went down the drains tonight. We shall sing your name,
little dame to drink too, Thomas Thomas Thomas Day, such
(41:29):
a shame. After Pay went down the drains to night,
we shall sing your name day we drink to Thomas
Space brilliance once it's timeer changing noble to come point.
I'm ratings on Thomer one, frustrating and hard though Day,
Thomas Day, Thomas Painting, Thomas Thomas Bay Next time on Mobituaries,
(42:05):
the pioneering Black Congressman of Reconstruction. Reconstruction is a moment
of incredible hopefulness. When Frederick Douglas saw the portrait of
Hiram Revels, he said, at last the black man has
represented something other than a monkey. I certainly hope you
enjoyed this mobituary. If you would please rate and review
(42:27):
our podcast. You can also follow Mobituaries on Facebook and Instagram,
and you can follow me on Twitter at mo Rocca.
For more great content about Thomas Payne, please visit mobituaries
dot com. You can subscribe to Mobituaries wherever you get
your podcasts. This episode of Mobituaries was produced by Gideon
(42:48):
Evans and Megan Marcus. Our team of producers also includes
Harry Wood and me Morocca. It was edited by Meg
Dalton and engineered by Dan de Zula and r. Kentry.
Additional editing by Sam Egan and David Fox. Special thanks
to the great Bill Curtis Donna La Pietra, Meghan Dietree,
(43:09):
Michael Crowder, Noura Slanimski, Randy Taylor, and the owners of
Marie's Crisis, Howard Bragman, John May, Paul Miles, Don Ralph,
Lawrence o'flahaven, Emma Cortland, Mindy Eisenberg's Dark, the Thomas Paine
Cottage and all Wise Meterary indispensable support from Genie Staneski,
(43:29):
Richard Rohrer and everyone at CBS news Radio. The show
stopper Drink to Thomas Payne was composed by Lawrence o'keith
and Nell Benjamin. Our knock Um Dead. Cast of singers
and musicians included Jane Bernard, Matthew Silva, Rachel Flynn, Brook Kintana,
and Jacob Reinstra. Our theme music is written by Daniel
(43:51):
Hart and, as always, undying thanks to Rand Morrison and
John carp without whom Mobituaries couldn't live. We view now
with more of Bill Curtis as John Adams insulting Thomas Payne.
All Right, Okay, a mongrel between pig and puppy begotten
(44:13):
by a wild boar on a bitch wolf amongrel between
pig and puppy begotten by a wild boar on a
bitch wolf. A mongrel between pig and puppy begotten by
a wild boar on a bitch wolf. Hi, it's mo
(44:39):
If you're enjoying Mobituaries the podcast, may I invite you
to check out Mobituaries the book. It's chock full of
stories not in the podcast. Celebrities who put their butts
on the line, sports teams that threw in the towel
for good, forgotten fashions, defunct diagnoses presidential candidacies that crater whole,
(45:00):
countries that want to put and dragons, Yes, dragons, you see.
People used to believe the dragons were real until just
get the book. You can order Mobituaries the Book from
any online bookseller, or stop by your local bookstore and
look for me when I come to your city. Tour
information and lots more at mobituaries dot com
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