Faith and Moral Leadership featuring academic Scott Galloway, activist Rashad Robinson, and Shaun Dougherty

Capitalism is fueled by self-interest, which leaves little room for morality when it comes to the leaders driving some of America’s most successful businesses. But social media and the rise of Twitter boycotts could be changing that, as consumers hold today’s leaders to a higher standard. In this episode, Stephanie chats with business professor Scott Galloway, activist Rashad Robinson, and Shaun Dougherty about how morality is inspiring businesses to consider more than just their bottom line.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and
I Heart Radio. I really hope that we correct what
is this aberration of income inequality that results in what
I'll called dangerous leadership. Had the white woman that tape
that not exposed it, we would have never actually even
had the story where Howard Schulton had to go on

(00:22):
air and talk about it. He was forced to do
the right thing. I can tell you, if gone exists,
I've said some very mean things, damn over the years.
I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent, and
this is Modern Rules. In this season of Modern Rules,

(00:52):
I'm going to be spending time unpacking the harriest conversations
from privilege to political correctness, to try and figure out
how we can navigate this changing world and break through
to actually talk with and learn from the people who
disagree with us, and maybe just maybe learn something along
the way. Today's episode Faith and Moral Leadership with guest

(01:16):
Scott Galloway, Rashad Robinson and Shawandaharty. It's almost impossible to
talk about moral leadership in America without talking about business century.
Capitalism in America shapes so much of our conversation about
the moral standards we hold different kinds of people to,
whether they are CEOs or celebrities. At the end of

(01:37):
the day, the rules of capitalism thus far, if you
make the most amount of money for the company, for
your shareholders, all that other stuff gets forgiven. Question today
is is it time to change that? Scott Galloway is
an academic and entrepreneur and an all around thoughtful human being.

(01:57):
For all the excesses and absences of moral leadership we
have seen, he sees what he calls a soft revolution
on the horizon, at least in some areas, which is
a sign of hope. Scott. When this country was founded,
everybody walked into a room with different plans and they

(02:18):
walked out and said, Okay, we're gonna go at this together.
But they were all white guys, and they were all landowners.
The wonderful thing about capitalism is there's assumption. It assumes
that a basic human attribute of our species is that
we're going to fix our own oxygen masks before helping others.
Self interest is the most powerful motivating force in the world,
and it's the basis of capitalism. At the end of

(02:39):
the day, people the baker doesn't give the butcher bread
for that person's well being, but because they want meat
in return. It's a powerful engine. But also a key
to capitalism is this notion of democracy and the rule
of fair play. The game might be tilted, but at
least it's not rigged. And I would argue over the
last thirty years that the middle class has figured out,
slowly but surely. Corporations have become government, the tax systems

(03:02):
become rigged. We have this hunger game's economy, and part
of is our fault, where we have this gross idolatry
of billionaires, where once you become a billionaire, you become
a celebrity, and your taxes should go down. You should
no longer be subject to the same scrutiny as everybody else.
You should pay, you should be famous, You should be
loved if you're sixty billion or fifty billion. To go
into the category I would describe as Jesus Christ, where

(03:22):
everything you say is examined and prophetic. You can be
a deadbeat dad, but because you started Apple, you're considered
the Jesus Christ of our information age. You can be
a broken sociopath who's a college chop out whose first
website evaluated women on their physical appearance, screwed over your
best friends in college and then royally fucked over your
best friends soon after college, and yet this person is

(03:43):
considered again, this iconic hero. So this gross idolatry of
youth and billionaires and technology, a sense a lack of
control around regulating complexity has resulted in people who are
quite frankly self interested. Everybody, at the end of the
day is going to act in their self interest. But
we're supposed to have a group of thoughtful people to say,
you know what, once you hit a million dollars a year,

(04:05):
your taxes shouldn't go down. Okay, but Scott, here's the thing.
What you are asking for is moral leadership. But are
we being naive it never existed? Let's say hard But listen,
there's a difference between a CEO who's got two employees,
like Jamie Diamond who's got to run JP Morgan every day,
and Ray Dalio who runs a business with dozens of employees.

(04:26):
But who's the person today that we can look to
and say, well, you can be a business leader and
a government leader and a moral leader. So I do
think there are examples, but at the end of the day,
their job is their jobs one and two and three
is for shareholder return. That's there for profit. Entities and
our economy are there to make profits. What we fail
to do is regulate them and say, okay, Google, you've

(04:49):
paid more fines than you paid in taxes in Europe,
so we need to look at a top line tax.
Howard Schultz called for more equity and the tax structure.
I would argue it's not only principle stand but it's
self preservation because traditionally throughout history, it's very clear when
we get to the current levels of income inequality that
we have. The good news is they owe its self correct.

(05:12):
Income inequality self correct. That's the bad news. The mechanisms
of self correction are either war, famine, or revolution, and
that is people get so fed up they turned to
nationalism and they start demonizing immigrants, or they turned to
some sort of government overthrow through socialism. We end up
with jove as so billionaires calling for more regulation and

(05:32):
higher taxes. Quite frankly, I do think it's principled, but
I also think it's self preservation. At some point, when
you look out your window and you see everyone with pitchforks,
you realize, well, maybe it's time, you know, maybe it
should be more than let them e kick. I think
we're at that point. The last time we have these
levels of income inequality was in the twenties, right before
the crash. Then explain this. If income inequality is reaching

(05:53):
crisis levels, that could incent a revolution. But I think
we're undergoing what I would call a sort of a
soft revolution. And then there's evidence of it everywhere. People
frustrated that their wages haven't gone up, so they're very
open or right to demonizing immigrants. It's their fault. They
took my job. They want extreme reaction. But where I

(06:14):
was headed with this is I do think we're in
the midst of a soft revolution, and that is people
are so fed up. An economy in a society can't
survive without a prospering middle class, and the middle class
in America has either been sideways most general to sleep
for the last thirty years, probably going down. And we're
in the midst of a soft revolution and a manifest
itself in different ways. There's calls for sevent taxes and

(06:34):
the elimination of air transport and a billionaire super tax. Look,
we all make bad decisions sometimes, and sometimes we make
those decisions because we think it's protecting the people we
love the most, And in those cases, it's harder to
characterize what's actually doing the right thing and what's doing
the wrong thing. I'll give you an example. If someone

(06:55):
accused me of having an affair outside of a relationship
and I didn't, anybody was going to find out. I
would lie. I would go on TV and lie. I
would try and protect my relationship in my family. I
would lie. I don't. I'm not sure I would own it.
I would rather preserve my family. I would hands down,
I would lie. But this notion of yeah, what Jeff

(07:16):
Bezos did owning it, I think that is really impressive
because I think a lot of people would decide, you
know what, I'm going to try and figure out a
way to worm out of it. So if the line
makes our life easier, right, it is day we protect
people's feelings, everybody smooths the edges. But in terms of
we lie, one of the reasons we lie, or we're

(07:36):
so desperate to protect our reputations is about how we
define what morality is. The other thing, going back to
this notion, I think we have to have more reverence
for privacy. I don't think. I think if you're running
for president, okay, maybe your personal life should be on
full display. Maybe not. It never used to be. It
didn't until Gary Hart. Pre Gary Hart, these were considered
private matters. Affairs and presidents were considered private matters. I

(07:59):
still believe that your private life, for the majority of people,
even they're famous, it's really nobody's business. I would like
to see a union of famous people all hold hands
and say, you know what, none of your fucking business.
What happens if you don't like the way I behave
on television, if you don't like the way I play sports, fine,
but my personal life, you know, basketball players and football
players happen to apologize for certain things or with political views.

(08:22):
My viewpoint is, why why are we in this industry?
It feels like all of them should just say, I
have no comment, it's none of your business. So look,
I am an optimist. As I say, I hate my
life less and less every day. I do think that
hopefully some immunities are kicking in, and I really hope
that we correct what is this aberration of income inequality
that results in what all called dangerous leadership. So I

(08:46):
am ultimately over the long term optimistic, but that optimism
can't translate to a certain amount of passive complacency. We absolutely,
in my view, have to ensure that we restore moral leadership.
I think we need to encourage people on both sides
to stop attacking. We need to separate people from ideology.
I go on Fox once a week just because I

(09:06):
want to know those people, and I like them, and
I think they're nice, and I want to understand them,
and I want to create a dialogue, want to play
my part in that, And I think we have to
also address these dangerous underlying technologies. They try and figure
out a way to put each of us in a
corner and start hating each other. I think it's really divisive.
We've created business models and a for profit incentive. Just
as we created for profit incentive in prisons, it took

(09:28):
us in bad place. We've created a for profit incentive
with our media that encourages you to pick a side
and then figures out a way for you to start
hating each other. I think it's really dangerous. I know
it's important to clean up bad behavior, but is the
answer to love a little more. That's a good place
to end it. We're going to be right back after
a quick break, welcome back to modern rules. When we're

(09:55):
talking about moral leadership, I think we need to take
a step back. It is worth real rising that we
as individuals can be the ones leading the way. Finally,
everyday people have a platform that can push c e
O s to realize that doing the right thing is
a smart business move. I bust on social media all

(10:17):
the time, but you can actually make the case that
social media has had a profound effect on weakening our institutions,
whether that's government or business, by finally creating this unfiltered,
totally open platform for public opinion of every single kind.
But at the same time, there's something powerful about the

(10:38):
way these institutions are now being held publicly accountable. As
my next guest says, change is hard. Rashad Robinson runs
the organization Color of Change. They employ all sorts of
online resources and social media to specifically advocate for issues
that affect African Americans and strengthen their political voice. Rashad

(11:00):
has seen how having positive examples in the form of
influential people and images and pop culture changes the way
we see one another. People want to be sensitive, they
want to care about others. There are instances where they
don't realize it. How big of a deal was it
when the bathroom incident happened with Starbucks in Philadelphia? Howard

(11:24):
Schultz went on television with GAYL King when she asked him,
was this racial profiling? He said, yes, it was. But
the fact that Starbucks was willing to acknowledge, yes, this
was racial profiling, how big of a deal was that?
So yeah, I think it was incredibly important. I talked
to Howard a couple of times during the process. We

(11:45):
spent a lot of time in Philadelphia electing a new
district attorney there through our political action committee. And part
of the reason why those guys were never charged with
a crime was because it was a district attorney there.
There was a cannibal to black communities who had stopped
charging for those type of things, So why they were arrested,
They were never charged. So the whole set of sort
of structural things at play. And you know, I do

(12:08):
think it's important that they acknowledged that there was a
problem there. I do think it's important that businesses sort
of recognize and then I think what's next is what
do they then do about it? How do they then
change the sort of rules of the road. There was
a lot of attention placed on Starbucks and then almost
less attention placed on the role of the police. The

(12:28):
fact of the matter is is the police chief came
out right after that and said it was, um, you know,
the police, the police did nothing wrong, but we're going
to investigate, you know. And I'm like, well, how does
that work? Like why would you investigate if you say
they did nothing wrong? Like why not just say we're
going to investigate. The other thing that I think is important,
back to your point about activism, is that it was

(12:51):
white people who took out their phones and taped that.
They tape that because there's a new mental model that
has been built by primarily young black, young people of
color activists and comedians around the country who have exposed
policing and it's been national stories that media has covered.
And as a result, people were watching that and they

(13:13):
had the thing that's been happening in their head to
take out their phones and tape it. And had the
white woman that that tape that not not done that
and not exposed it, we would have never actually even
had the story where Howard Chilton had to go on
air and talk about it, and you know, that was
the last thing any ceo, and this is mat about

(13:34):
Howard any ceo has to do. He had to do
it because there was a new set of power, a
new set of engagement that happened. He was forced to
do the right thing. Change is hard. Nothing changes easy
in this country, and so the kind of pushed to

(13:55):
actually make things change and make things different, it is
always going to be met with resistance. This is though,
why representation is so important, and why representation up against
those currents are so important. The introduction of black characters
on TV was met with opposition. The introduction of certain

(14:16):
type of female representations was met with pushback and real opposition. Certainly,
I dealt with the pushback against gay and lesbian representations
when I was, you know, engaged in that work deeply,
and the emails and the phone calls we would we
would see out there in the protest. You know, it
seems like a long time ago, but you know, there

(14:38):
was a whole lot of pushback when Glee went on
the air and the representation of a gay high school kid,
and there was a lot of conversation around that. So
all of that is going to have push. But but
part of that push is necessary because we've got to
expose it. If we don't actually have the conversations that
people are having in in a kind of free society,

(14:59):
we don't elevate those voices to challenge them and pushed back,
then we pretend that things are in a place that
they actually are not in. Then how beneficial and how
important has it been when you see star athletes come
out and talk about mental illness or anxiety and depression,
which flies directly in the face of those ultramacho personas.

(15:23):
How big of a positive impact does that? I think
it's incredible. I think I think I remember when Magic
Johnson came out as HIV positive and what that did
for the conversation around a disease that people were afraid
to talk about and the characters that they believed it

(15:43):
only inflicted exactly it wasn't Magic JOHNSONID Yes, so over
and over again, the you know the power of influencers
and celebrities, I oftentimes think about celebrities as like, you know, like,
what does it mean to have narrative infrastructure to reach
more people? Right? And also to reach kind of the
subcultures of people, right, Like, not everyone watches the same

(16:04):
TV program or the same news program anymore the same
TV show, and so how do we think about the
range of voices that can sort of help us reach
more people in new ways encourage people. We took Michael B.
Jordan's door knocking in Georgia for the election Leaning up
the Georgia, and we surprised people at their doors and
the sort of reaction obviously you can imagine that's the

(16:28):
reaction that I hear from a lot of So, like,
there were people mostly mad as we were leaving Georgia,
like how dare you not bring him to my house? Um?
But he went to people's doors, and I was ready
to change. I know, people were like moving to Atlanta.
I mean, can you like your doorbell rings? And Oprah
or Michael V I was I was like standing there
with Mike when he was like doing it. I was like,

(16:49):
this is crazy. But all that that to say, like
that ability to reach people in that way and connect
with people on the importance of their civic engagement and right,
that works with some people and not with others. But
celebrities using their voices and in authentic ways. I think
continues to have power, and I think that what we

(17:11):
have to open up space for it across the board
is conversations that we have previously been unwilling to have.
And if celebrities and visible people can come out and
say the things that need to be said or the
kind of everyday people are then compelled to talk about
it in their homes and in there. But don't we

(17:33):
have to find a way to have these conversations without
the fear of shame, of being called ignorant or stupid
or close minded, or because I worry that it causes.
I look at the way sometimes I speak to my
own parents and if they voice a viewpoint that maybe
they've seen on conservative media, I feel myself shut them

(17:55):
down and make them feel terrible, and then they stopped talking,
and we're not have than constructive conversations, and it's only
driving us deeper into tribalism. I think it's tricky. I
think that people seeing change being modeled for them is important.
And I think if someone is only watching conservative media,
or watching a lot of conservative media, them seeing forceful,

(18:19):
strong opinions on the other side is actually important. And
sometimes people may shut down in the moment, but have
time to think about things later. I think about all
the changes we have made on so many issues over times,
and the deep arguments that have happened in families around
everything from women's equality to interracial friendships and relationships, to

(18:42):
LGBT equality, all of those things. I think those conversations
have sometimes been tense and sometimes been challenging. I've watched
the views on you know, candidates in marijuana and drug
use change, you know in my life that I'm forty
so I said, so like you have watched, you know,
in front of my eyes, these like ways in which

(19:05):
people have been like, oh, whatever, no big deal. I mean,
I'm not sure what people are going to think about
extramarital relationships after this current president and you know, leaves office,
and how people sort of will view those things. I
also think that people appreciate authenticity. People appreciate folks you

(19:25):
own it, and I don't think I think that some
of the things that we have seen from that have
gotten politicians into problems is it doesn't feel real that
they've waited until it got deeply exposed. They gave us
half answers that didn't feel real. I have no interest
in ever running for office, because I have lived a
life where one should not run for office. But but

(19:46):
I was joking, But I was joking with friends about
it the other night, like we should just do a
dump of all your stuff and then like see what happens.
And they're like, maybe it'd be good if my friends
are listening. But that's not a request. Just hold on
a second, because we have so much more to get into.
We'll be back right after a quick break. Welcome back

(20:11):
to modern rules. Of course, economic and political institutions are
only part of the equation. Religious institutions are a seminal
part of many American lives. My guest, my friend, Shaun Darty,
is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse by a clergyman.
He has wrestled with his beliefs, with the whole idea

(20:32):
of faith in the wake of that abuse. I feel
you are a soulful person. I feel you're an optimistic
person in spite of all of this. So I want
to understand where it comes from. At a time when
so many people just see red, I have many people
of faith tell me that I am faithful. I've had

(20:52):
the Bishop of Altoona Johnstown tell me that I believe
in God. I'm just on leave right now? Can I
say that I pray? Yeah? Do I say they are father?
And how Mary? No, I couldn't recite one right now.
You would have to lead it. And if you let it,
I could probably jump in. But I couldn't do it
on my own right now. But they usually in rage.
And I can tell you if God exists, I've said

(21:14):
some very mean things to him over the years. How
do you manage the rage? I scream? Throughout the years?
I managed in different ways. I self medicated for a
long time. Anything that would make me take me somewhere else,
make me, you know, conveniently being in the bar and
restaurant business my whole life, especially nightclubs and things. You know.

(21:36):
Cocaine isn't magical tool you feel you fork, you know,
and all of the ALCOHOLI everything. You know, it's magnificent
until you get addicted cocaine and now you have two problems.
But they don't help you forgive, they help you run.
That was it. I was a pro at running until

(21:59):
I married two thousand four. I was pro running. If
if I wasn't married right now, I'd probably be behind
the wheel of a eighteen wheel or truck or and
on some cargo ship to see running like, forget it,
I'm gonna just go for a while. Are you at peace? No,

(22:21):
not even close. Are you angry? Yeah, I'm I'm incredibly angry.
This has gone on long enough. What would make you
not angry? If the federal government and the state individual
state governments brought this issue up immediately, and we have

(22:41):
separation of church and state, regardless of how much money
that contributes to your campaign, We're supposed to be separated.
We have official state investigations from across the board in
Pennsylvania that every single diocese in Pennsylvania is doing this,
and now forty six other state attorney generals are are

(23:02):
inquiring at least say it that they are going to
look into this. So but going to look into this.
If we were talking about dozens and dozens of men,
of teachers, of welders over the last fifty years that
were abusing boys, they'd all be in jail. Are you
kidding me? If this was a bike gang, if this
was the Hell's Angels, are you kidding me? Absolutely? But

(23:24):
I alluded to it before campaign. The power connection wealth,
these reports said that these people meant, why am I
not upset at my parents now in the community now?
Because they were groomed just like me. They were groomed
before me. You have to groom them first in order
to get them to hand you their children. Well, they're

(23:45):
the people you're supposed to trust and look up to
in your community, and we're finding out that you can't
do that to everybody. So there have to be safeguards
in place, and that is the role of our government
to protect, to protect and serve these citizens in their communities.
So here's what I've heard about faith and moral leadership.

(24:08):
We're part of a culture that rewards self interest. So
we need to examine the roles we play and where
we want to get to and start changing our behavior accordingly.
If we want a different outcome, we need to tell
a different story all along the way. Do I do
things that make me the support character in my family narrative?

(24:30):
Because if I am, why on earth what I expect
my daughter to want to be anything except the princess
or dare I say the damsel in distress? The fact
that we the definition for what a leader looks like,
that's what we need to change and not just for
people who are currently in the workforce. We need to
change it for our kids. This has been our conversation

(24:51):
on faith and moral leadership. Thanks for listening, bringing an
open mind, and helping me create the Modern Rules. I
want more of this conversation. Go deeper and read this
week's Modern Rules feature only on NBC news dot Com
Slash Better Ye. That's it for today's episode. I'm your host,

(25:18):
Stephanie Rule. A very very special thanks to the extraordinary
people who made this happen. My producers Julie Brown, Samantha
Ullen and Anne Bark, Audio, Michael Biett for booking and wrangling,
the amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller for editing
and bill plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their
recording expertise. Special thanks to Steve lick Tige, Barbara Rab,

(25:40):
Jonathan Wald, Marie Dugo, Holly traz, Nikki Etre and Christina
Everett are Executive producers are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatiga
Door And of course, the men who brought us all together.
Chairman and CEO of I Heart Media, Bob Pittman and
Chairman of NBC News Andy Lack. For more podcasts from
My heart Radio, visit the heart Radio app, Apple podcast

(26:01):
or wherever