December 10, 2020 • 17 mins
Stephanie is joined by Donald K. Sherman, deputy director of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) and former government oversight and ethics lawyer, to discuss how holdover Trump political appointees could exercise their power in a Biden Administration. And they take a closer look corruption and accountability in Washington.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As lazy as Donald Trump has been, the one area
where he has shown great diligence is in abusing the
government to serve his personal and political goals. We elected
a president in twenty sixteen who was corrupt, hired corrupt people,
(00:20):
and engaged in rampid corruption. With each day they got
better and better at understanding the levers of government and
how they could exploit gaps and exploit loopholes to further
their corruption. I mean, when was the last time you
needed to know who the Postmaster General of the United
States was? Like, I've done oversight over the Postal Service
and I can only name one person between Louis to
(00:43):
Joy and Ben Franklin. So that gives you a sense
of just how much damage this president has done two
institutions that nobody needed to pay attention to you before.
When a new president takes office, one of the first
things on the agenda is a clean house. It is
their opportunity to quickly whip things into shape so they
(01:04):
can do what they got elected to do. And while
the majority of government positions will turn over with a
new administration, it's not all of them. There are a
handful of government roles filled through political appointment that have
terms that aren't specifically tied to a president. What does
that mean? It means that President Trump has put people
in these positions, many of them controversial figures, and now
(01:28):
they hold significant political power. I'm talking about jobs like
the Postmaster General, federal election commissioners, and the Office of
Inspectors General. On this episode, we're looking at what it
really means for a president to clean house and whether
hold over Trump appointees could pose a challenge for Biden
his agenda. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor, NBC News Senior correspondent,
(01:51):
and this is Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think
and I Heart Radio. The Trump administration has been described
as one of the most corrupt in history. So what
we want to find out what loopholes, what rules were
they able to bend to their own advantage, What could
(02:11):
they do and even the last few weeks of the
Trump presidency they could have long lasting damage. My guest
today can answer that very question. He's an anti corruption
expert with a keen understanding of exactly how DC works.
Donald Sherman is Deputy Director of Citizens for Responsibility and
(02:33):
Ethics in Washington, and Ethics watchdog organization, and before that,
he was an oversight and ethics lawyer in the Obama administration,
and he was a chief oversight council to the late Rep.
Elijah Cummings on the House Oversight Committee. I am so
honored that you're with us here today. I have to
ask you, what have the last four years been like
for you? They've been frustrating and inspiring, and I think
(02:56):
for a lot of people difficult. But I've been really
impressed and excited to see how many people have educated
themselves about what corruption means and how it undermines how
all of the government functions. And you know, we've we've
been busy, you know, we've been busy trying to push
back against a president who is the most corrupt in
(03:20):
American history, has tried to bend every institution, and not
just to his personal political benefit, but to his personal
financial benefit. President Trump didn't want or like the idea
of political appointee holdovers. He oftentimes considered those people loyal
to Obama believed they were out to undermine him. Historically speaking,
(03:43):
has that been the case? Historically that has not been
the case. Right, There's a certain set of political pointees
that always leave. Most of them have to leave. You know,
when I was an appointee in the Obama administration, we
had to submit letters of resignation a month before the inauguration.
So you know, if you're hired as a political appointee,
(04:05):
unless statutorially your term extends beyond the president's term or
you're explicitly asked by the incoming administration to stay on,
everyone's expected to leave. All of those political pointees are
expected to leave. But the thing that's consistent is that
the reason why these positions have terms that are not
(04:27):
tied to the president is because they're meant to be
above politics. There are a number that are really essential
to our democracy whose positions aren't tied to the president,
and so while the president appoints them, they get to
stick around. Let's talk political appointees, because I think, oh,
that's all the judges that the Trump administration appointed to
(04:47):
the bench. So can you give us a broader picture
of the most influential political appointee roles that influence our government.
I think the political appointments, as a general matter, are
hired because of based on a combination of their background, experience,
and knowledge, as well as political alignment with the president
(05:12):
that was elected. We elected president every four years. There's
some institutional memory in the staffers that stay on board,
the career experts that stay in the government in the
executive branch, but we elect our leaders, and our leaders
get to choose the folks that implement their strategy throughout
the agencies. And so it's this mix of you come
(05:34):
in and you work with the career staff to understand
what's going on in the agency. Understand and you have
to decide what the new administration's priorities are and what
shifts in personnel and policy need to be made to
implement those. And so it's important to have those roles
in government. The problem has been that Donald Trump has
(05:54):
perverted all of the tools of government and really corrupted
a lot of these institutions that folks didn't have to
worry about before. Talk to us about who doesn't leave
give us a sense of how many senior political appointee
holdovers will be in those roles come January and could
(06:15):
impact Biden's ability to get his agenda done. Probably the
most glaring example is Louise de Joy, who's the Postmaster General.
Louise to Joy was this Trump mega doner. He hosted
a fundraiser with the President in his home in ten
and miraculously was selected to serve as the Postmaster General
(06:37):
in the spring, just as the President was ramping up
his attacks against voting by mail and the pandemic was surging.
Now this is somebody who has no fixed term, so
he could be in this role sabotaging voting by mail,
certainly for the January five election, which is before the inauguration.
But for the elections, the board has the ability to
(07:00):
vote vote him out and to remove him. So President
Biden could have an opportunity to select up to four
Board of governors during the early days of his term,
but they'd still be outnumbered by the Trumpet pointees, so
it would take a long time for there to be
(07:20):
enough vacancies to overcome the majority of Trumpet pointees on
that board. But the other route is impeachment. So well,
louis to Joy maybe the most glaring example how many
outliers are there that concern you. There's also the chair
of the Federal Election Commission, Trade Trainer, whose term doesn't
end until three the Special Counsel Henry Kerner, who again
(07:45):
has done admirable work in holding Trumpet pointees accountable, but
still leaves some things to be desired. His term ends
in two In addition, there are inspectors General who don't
serve a fixed term and and can only be removed
by the President of United States. And while most of
the inspectors general are hard working, even handed government employees,
(08:08):
what we've seen over the last year especially, is that
Trump has put a priority on loyalty in all of
his nominees, including inspectors general. So those are positions that
have a significant impact on how the government will function
on oversight over the Trump administration and the Biden administration.
(08:29):
And there's an open question as to whether a lot
of Trump's appointees in those positions are loyal to their
mandate under statute or are loyal to the President of
the United States that pointed them. And it's not something
that happens overnight. Mitch McConnell and President Trump are filling
a bunch of posts during this lame duck session. How
(08:51):
many are sort of on the docket to be appointed.
One thing that we shouldn't lose sight of is that
there are a number of these critical political appointees pending
before the Senate, and if I know Miss McConnell, like
I think most of us two, they'll get confirmed before
the end of this Congress, or at least before the
(09:12):
end of Trump's presidency. And I think, you know, again,
these positions don't get a lot of attention unless they're
screwing up. But the next Inspector General the Transportation Department
is going to have a huge impact over what that
investigation looks like and whether Secretary Chow or even Leader
McConnell are implicated in misconduct. And so, you know, part
(09:33):
of what we need to do is elevate these issues.
And as much as folks have been educated on the
different functions of government, the different roles that people play,
and how important they are, there's still more work to
be done. Then let's talk about that. In government, there
are positions where it is their job to prevent and
(09:53):
snuff out corruption. But what happens if the people in
those jobs are corrupt themselves? Does our system breakdown if
the people who are meant to stop corruption are corrupt?
I think if the Trump years has demonstrated anything is
that institutions are only as strong as the people within them, right.
(10:14):
But I think, particularly in these positions. There are some
mechanisms to investigate misconduct, right. You know, the US Postal
Service has an Inspector General that has criticized Louis to
Joy for those for the changes that he implemented when
he came in. The f EC also has an inspector General,
and the inspectors General actually have a council that serves
(10:38):
as an oversight body for them as well. So there
are oversight mechanisms. But the other thing to remember is
that Congress has the role to play here and they
really need to step up their oversight of these positions. Right.
Congress in a lot of ways has abdicated their responsibility
to hold the executive brands accountable, and particularly for these
(11:00):
roles where there are holdover positions and government watchdogs who
have engaged in corrupt activity, Congress needs to hold them
into account. For those of us that are in the
government ethics community, it's certainly a concern that whether or
not anyone sort of follows the Trump model per se,
that there's been a shift in the Overton window, and
(11:21):
so we're gonna work really hard to make sure that
better than Trump is not the standard for ethics in
any administration. To follow right and keep. Part of that
is closing those loopholes, reforming the system and getting buy
in from Congress, and to bolster our ethics laws on
(11:43):
the front end. We'll be back after the break. What
does close the loopholes mean? Who changes these rules? Right now?
(12:04):
We're talking all about senators that used information that they
were given because of their position, and they went and
traded stocks based on that that wasn't new. Years ago,
Congress tried to pass a law to prevent members of
Congress from doing that, and then it never went through
because they don't want the rules changed. So who is
(12:25):
responsible for changing the rules? I think in terms of
what's achievable, we should look at what's already on the table.
Right There was a Comprehensive Ethics Bill HR one that
was introduced in January of twenty nineteen that passed the House,
has been languishing in the Senate, and there are a
number of different measures in there that would bolster accountability
(12:49):
for members of Congress, ulster accountability for the president. That
is a first step, right, It's by no means of panacea,
and there's lots of work that needs to be done,
but getting that past will it send a message that
Congress is serious about ethics reform. But again, that requires
(13:09):
the Senate to operate. Okay, But then let's be honest.
We've been saying for four years, longer than four years,
what they need to do, what they should do. Nothing
actually changes. So what needs to be addressed to sort
of take on corruption at the highest levels of our government.
So if you're looking at what a single actor, right
like what the president could do, or what one Chamber
(13:32):
of Congress could do, I think if the House got
really serious about oversight and started holding up appropriations bills
and using their appropriation power as a cudgel to get
documents and information and to get accountability from the executive branch,
that would be a game changer in terms of the
(13:52):
balance of power between Congress and the executive branch at large.
And so it will be interesting to see what happens
when the White House and the sort of the same party.
But you really need one leg of the stool to
take the lead. President Trump is still in office, right,
we woke up today to news stories of the White
House liaison, a White House liaison being banned from being
(14:16):
physically inside the Justice Department because she was trying to
get information about ongoing investigations. Stories like that are worrisome.
What should we be paying attention to from an ethics
standpoint from now until janu We know Trump is corrupt,
and we also know that he has a limited amount
(14:37):
of time to continue drifting off of the government. And
so as much as people have talked about looking ahead,
we cannot lose sight of the fact that this president
can do more damage in six weeks as commander in
chief than pretty much any person can do to our
(14:57):
country in a lifetime. Then what's the first order of business.
Is it let's reform the rules so this can't take
place again, Or is it let's clean house, get these
bad folks out and get some good ones back in.
Because even if you put good ones in for the
next four years, we could go right back to Trump
time four years from now if you don't change the rules.
(15:19):
So I think the short answer is there can be
progress without accountability, And so our hope is that there's
the political will or the political pressure once Trump has
left office to move forward with some comprehensive ethics reform.
It will be up to the Office of Government Ethics
to work with the incoming Biden administration to ensure robust
(15:41):
and aggressive compliance measures to ensure that we eliminate conflicts
of interest in government. It'll be up to folks like
Henry kern Or, who is head of the Office of
Special Council, to continue investigations that he opened during the
Trump administration into violations of the Hatch Act and ensure
that there's a record of those violators so that they
(16:04):
can be held accountable either during this administration or for
some of them if they re enter government down the road.
We want to cut through the noise and leave you
with some time to think on this podcast. Something Donald
(16:25):
Trump left me thinking about is this, Even if many
of Trump's political appointees are on their way out of Washington,
what kind of lasting damage do they leave behind. How
can we bolster our system so that people are actually
held accountable. I'm Stephanie Rule and you're listening to Modern Rules,
a podcast from NBC Think, MSNBC and I Heart Radio.
(16:50):
This podcast is hosted by me Stephanie Rule. Mike Beet
and Katrina Norvell are executive producers. Meredith Bennett Smith is
Senior editor for NBC Think and our editorial lead. The
podcast is engineered and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional production
support provided by Charles Herman, Rachel Rosenbaum and Lauren Wynn,
and special thanks to Katherine kim Are, Global head of
(17:10):
Digital News right here at NBC News and MSNBC. For
more thought provoking analysis, visit NBC news dot com slash
thank
As lazy as Donald Trump has been, the one area
where he has shown great diligence is in abusing the
government to serve his personal and political goals. We elected
a president in twenty sixteen who was corrupt, hired corrupt people,
(00:20):
and engaged in rampid corruption. With each day they got
better and better at understanding the levers of government and
how they could exploit gaps and exploit loopholes to further
their corruption. I mean, when was the last time you
needed to know who the Postmaster General of the United
States was? Like, I've done oversight over the Postal Service
and I can only name one person between Louis to
(00:43):
Joy and Ben Franklin. So that gives you a sense
of just how much damage this president has done two
institutions that nobody needed to pay attention to you before.
When a new president takes office, one of the first
things on the agenda is a clean house. It is
their opportunity to quickly whip things into shape so they
(01:04):
can do what they got elected to do. And while
the majority of government positions will turn over with a
new administration, it's not all of them. There are a
handful of government roles filled through political appointment that have
terms that aren't specifically tied to a president. What does
that mean? It means that President Trump has put people
in these positions, many of them controversial figures, and now
(01:28):
they hold significant political power. I'm talking about jobs like
the Postmaster General, federal election commissioners, and the Office of
Inspectors General. On this episode, we're looking at what it
really means for a president to clean house and whether
hold over Trump appointees could pose a challenge for Biden
his agenda. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor, NBC News Senior correspondent,
(01:51):
and this is Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think
and I Heart Radio. The Trump administration has been described
as one of the most corrupt in history. So what
we want to find out what loopholes, what rules were
they able to bend to their own advantage, What could
(02:11):
they do and even the last few weeks of the
Trump presidency they could have long lasting damage. My guest
today can answer that very question. He's an anti corruption
expert with a keen understanding of exactly how DC works.
Donald Sherman is Deputy Director of Citizens for Responsibility and
(02:33):
Ethics in Washington, and Ethics watchdog organization, and before that,
he was an oversight and ethics lawyer in the Obama administration,
and he was a chief oversight council to the late Rep.
Elijah Cummings on the House Oversight Committee. I am so
honored that you're with us here today. I have to
ask you, what have the last four years been like
for you? They've been frustrating and inspiring, and I think
(02:56):
for a lot of people difficult. But I've been really
impressed and excited to see how many people have educated
themselves about what corruption means and how it undermines how
all of the government functions. And you know, we've we've
been busy, you know, we've been busy trying to push
back against a president who is the most corrupt in
(03:20):
American history, has tried to bend every institution, and not
just to his personal political benefit, but to his personal
financial benefit. President Trump didn't want or like the idea
of political appointee holdovers. He oftentimes considered those people loyal
to Obama believed they were out to undermine him. Historically speaking,
(03:43):
has that been the case? Historically that has not been
the case. Right, There's a certain set of political pointees
that always leave. Most of them have to leave. You know,
when I was an appointee in the Obama administration, we
had to submit letters of resignation a month before the inauguration.
So you know, if you're hired as a political appointee,
(04:05):
unless statutorially your term extends beyond the president's term or
you're explicitly asked by the incoming administration to stay on,
everyone's expected to leave. All of those political pointees are
expected to leave. But the thing that's consistent is that
the reason why these positions have terms that are not
(04:27):
tied to the president is because they're meant to be
above politics. There are a number that are really essential
to our democracy whose positions aren't tied to the president,
and so while the president appoints them, they get to
stick around. Let's talk political appointees, because I think, oh,
that's all the judges that the Trump administration appointed to
(04:47):
the bench. So can you give us a broader picture
of the most influential political appointee roles that influence our government.
I think the political appointments, as a general matter, are
hired because of based on a combination of their background, experience,
and knowledge, as well as political alignment with the president
(05:12):
that was elected. We elected president every four years. There's
some institutional memory in the staffers that stay on board,
the career experts that stay in the government in the
executive branch, but we elect our leaders, and our leaders
get to choose the folks that implement their strategy throughout
the agencies. And so it's this mix of you come
(05:34):
in and you work with the career staff to understand
what's going on in the agency. Understand and you have
to decide what the new administration's priorities are and what
shifts in personnel and policy need to be made to
implement those. And so it's important to have those roles
in government. The problem has been that Donald Trump has
(05:54):
perverted all of the tools of government and really corrupted
a lot of these institutions that folks didn't have to
worry about before. Talk to us about who doesn't leave
give us a sense of how many senior political appointee
holdovers will be in those roles come January and could
(06:15):
impact Biden's ability to get his agenda done. Probably the
most glaring example is Louise de Joy, who's the Postmaster General.
Louise to Joy was this Trump mega doner. He hosted
a fundraiser with the President in his home in ten
and miraculously was selected to serve as the Postmaster General
(06:37):
in the spring, just as the President was ramping up
his attacks against voting by mail and the pandemic was surging.
Now this is somebody who has no fixed term, so
he could be in this role sabotaging voting by mail,
certainly for the January five election, which is before the inauguration.
But for the elections, the board has the ability to
(07:00):
vote vote him out and to remove him. So President
Biden could have an opportunity to select up to four
Board of governors during the early days of his term,
but they'd still be outnumbered by the Trumpet pointees, so
it would take a long time for there to be
(07:20):
enough vacancies to overcome the majority of Trumpet pointees on
that board. But the other route is impeachment. So well,
louis to Joy maybe the most glaring example how many
outliers are there that concern you. There's also the chair
of the Federal Election Commission, Trade Trainer, whose term doesn't
end until three the Special Counsel Henry Kerner, who again
(07:45):
has done admirable work in holding Trumpet pointees accountable, but
still leaves some things to be desired. His term ends
in two In addition, there are inspectors General who don't
serve a fixed term and and can only be removed
by the President of United States. And while most of
the inspectors general are hard working, even handed government employees,
(08:08):
what we've seen over the last year especially, is that
Trump has put a priority on loyalty in all of
his nominees, including inspectors general. So those are positions that
have a significant impact on how the government will function
on oversight over the Trump administration and the Biden administration.
(08:29):
And there's an open question as to whether a lot
of Trump's appointees in those positions are loyal to their
mandate under statute or are loyal to the President of
the United States that pointed them. And it's not something
that happens overnight. Mitch McConnell and President Trump are filling
a bunch of posts during this lame duck session. How
(08:51):
many are sort of on the docket to be appointed.
One thing that we shouldn't lose sight of is that
there are a number of these critical political appointees pending
before the Senate, and if I know Miss McConnell, like
I think most of us two, they'll get confirmed before
the end of this Congress, or at least before the
(09:12):
end of Trump's presidency. And I think, you know, again,
these positions don't get a lot of attention unless they're
screwing up. But the next Inspector General the Transportation Department
is going to have a huge impact over what that
investigation looks like and whether Secretary Chow or even Leader
McConnell are implicated in misconduct. And so, you know, part
(09:33):
of what we need to do is elevate these issues.
And as much as folks have been educated on the
different functions of government, the different roles that people play,
and how important they are, there's still more work to
be done. Then let's talk about that. In government, there
are positions where it is their job to prevent and
(09:53):
snuff out corruption. But what happens if the people in
those jobs are corrupt themselves? Does our system breakdown if
the people who are meant to stop corruption are corrupt?
I think if the Trump years has demonstrated anything is
that institutions are only as strong as the people within them, right.
(10:14):
But I think, particularly in these positions. There are some
mechanisms to investigate misconduct, right. You know, the US Postal
Service has an Inspector General that has criticized Louis to
Joy for those for the changes that he implemented when
he came in. The f EC also has an inspector General,
and the inspectors General actually have a council that serves
(10:38):
as an oversight body for them as well. So there
are oversight mechanisms. But the other thing to remember is
that Congress has the role to play here and they
really need to step up their oversight of these positions. Right.
Congress in a lot of ways has abdicated their responsibility
to hold the executive brands accountable, and particularly for these
(11:00):
roles where there are holdover positions and government watchdogs who
have engaged in corrupt activity, Congress needs to hold them
into account. For those of us that are in the
government ethics community, it's certainly a concern that whether or
not anyone sort of follows the Trump model per se,
that there's been a shift in the Overton window, and
(11:21):
so we're gonna work really hard to make sure that
better than Trump is not the standard for ethics in
any administration. To follow right and keep. Part of that
is closing those loopholes, reforming the system and getting buy
in from Congress, and to bolster our ethics laws on
(11:43):
the front end. We'll be back after the break. What
does close the loopholes mean? Who changes these rules? Right now?
(12:04):
We're talking all about senators that used information that they
were given because of their position, and they went and
traded stocks based on that that wasn't new. Years ago,
Congress tried to pass a law to prevent members of
Congress from doing that, and then it never went through
because they don't want the rules changed. So who is
(12:25):
responsible for changing the rules? I think in terms of
what's achievable, we should look at what's already on the table.
Right There was a Comprehensive Ethics Bill HR one that
was introduced in January of twenty nineteen that passed the House,
has been languishing in the Senate, and there are a
number of different measures in there that would bolster accountability
(12:49):
for members of Congress, ulster accountability for the president. That
is a first step, right, It's by no means of panacea,
and there's lots of work that needs to be done,
but getting that past will it send a message that
Congress is serious about ethics reform. But again, that requires
(13:09):
the Senate to operate. Okay, But then let's be honest.
We've been saying for four years, longer than four years,
what they need to do, what they should do. Nothing
actually changes. So what needs to be addressed to sort
of take on corruption at the highest levels of our government.
So if you're looking at what a single actor, right
like what the president could do, or what one Chamber
(13:32):
of Congress could do, I think if the House got
really serious about oversight and started holding up appropriations bills
and using their appropriation power as a cudgel to get
documents and information and to get accountability from the executive branch,
that would be a game changer in terms of the
(13:52):
balance of power between Congress and the executive branch at large.
And so it will be interesting to see what happens
when the White House and the sort of the same party.
But you really need one leg of the stool to
take the lead. President Trump is still in office, right,
we woke up today to news stories of the White
House liaison, a White House liaison being banned from being
(14:16):
physically inside the Justice Department because she was trying to
get information about ongoing investigations. Stories like that are worrisome.
What should we be paying attention to from an ethics
standpoint from now until janu We know Trump is corrupt,
and we also know that he has a limited amount
(14:37):
of time to continue drifting off of the government. And
so as much as people have talked about looking ahead,
we cannot lose sight of the fact that this president
can do more damage in six weeks as commander in
chief than pretty much any person can do to our
(14:57):
country in a lifetime. Then what's the first order of business.
Is it let's reform the rules so this can't take
place again, Or is it let's clean house, get these
bad folks out and get some good ones back in.
Because even if you put good ones in for the
next four years, we could go right back to Trump
time four years from now if you don't change the rules.
(15:19):
So I think the short answer is there can be
progress without accountability, And so our hope is that there's
the political will or the political pressure once Trump has
left office to move forward with some comprehensive ethics reform.
It will be up to the Office of Government Ethics
to work with the incoming Biden administration to ensure robust
(15:41):
and aggressive compliance measures to ensure that we eliminate conflicts
of interest in government. It'll be up to folks like
Henry kern Or, who is head of the Office of
Special Council, to continue investigations that he opened during the
Trump administration into violations of the Hatch Act and ensure
that there's a record of those violators so that they
(16:04):
can be held accountable either during this administration or for
some of them if they re enter government down the road.
We want to cut through the noise and leave you
with some time to think on this podcast. Something Donald
(16:25):
Trump left me thinking about is this, Even if many
of Trump's political appointees are on their way out of Washington,
what kind of lasting damage do they leave behind. How
can we bolster our system so that people are actually
held accountable. I'm Stephanie Rule and you're listening to Modern Rules,
a podcast from NBC Think, MSNBC and I Heart Radio.
(16:50):
This podcast is hosted by me Stephanie Rule. Mike Beet
and Katrina Norvell are executive producers. Meredith Bennett Smith is
Senior editor for NBC Think and our editorial lead. The
podcast is engineered and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional production
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