December 7, 2023 • 24 mins
In this insightful episode, Areva Martin delves deeper into the intersection of financial literacy, education, and personal empowerment. She shares valuable perspectives on student loans, urging listeners to view them as investments in oneself. Areva emphasizes the importance of strategic planning before taking on loans, advocating for informed decision-making. The conversation extends to her book 'Awakening: Ladies, Leadership, and the Lies We've Been Told,' where she sheds light on the unique challenges faced by women, especially Black women, in the workplace. Join us for a compelling discussion on navigating financial choices and breaking through workplace barriers.
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Guest IG: @arevamartin
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks to MasterCard for sponsoring this episode. Head to MasterCard
dot com Backslash Small Bids to learn how they're amplifying
and supporting black women entrepreneurs.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You know, know what you're getting into. Make sure it's
a reptible school that's not one of these you know,
fly by night for profit schools that's just out to gouge. You.
Try to get the best interest rate that you can
understand how much you're borrowing. Borrow just what you need.
Don't borrow for vacation. This is not you know, free vacation.
(00:31):
This is not free money because you don't have to
pay it back and then just plus interest and then
figure out, you know, the kind of job you gotta
need and get on a plant and you pay it off.
I mean, I've paid off thousands and thousands of dollars,
loens of thousands of dollars, tens of thousands, but it
was so worth If I had to do it again,
I would do it all over again.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
You're listening to Money News powered by greenwayd a finance
podcast dedicated to dropping all the knowledge and gems from
the world's leading celebrities, entrepreneurs, ands and tech, business and more.
I'm your host, angel investor, technology enthusiast, and media personality
Tanya Sam. Each week we talk with guests who are
making significant strides in their fields and learn how they
(01:12):
are making their money boot.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
If you're someone who's looking to make your money move,
You're in the right place.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So open up your notes app and lock us in
because this podcast will give you the keys to the
kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance you so rightly deserve.
Before we start the episode, I'd like to remind you
to check us out at gogreenwood dot com and follow
us on social media at Greenwood and me on all
Things social at It's Tanya. Time to stay locked in
(01:39):
to new episode.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Hey money Movers, welcome back.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Today we continue our conversation with California super lawyer and
best selling author Areva Martin.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I have a question for.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
You, because this is something I've always wondered, you know,
as we look at building wealth, building legacy and investing
in ourselves. You went to Harvard Law School, without question,
one of the most prestigious How do you feel now
for folks that are considering law, you know, to change
their lives, change the lives of their families, but also
need to go into it getting student loans. There's so
(02:13):
much talk with student loans right now and whether or
not it's worth the investment.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, and you know, actually there are a lot of
people who now are saying that they're not encouraging their
children to go even to a four year college because
of the cost, because of the student loans. I don't
agree with that. Here's how I think about loans. I
think about a loan for education as an investment in yourself.
(02:40):
And if you were going to get ahead in life,
you've got to be able to invest in you, whether
it's a wardrobe or you know, whether it's getting your
teeth fixed. People get their teeth fixed. I mean, there
are all kinds of investments you have to make, depending
on the industry. And so student loans when taken out
for a school. Now, what we say a lot of
folks do oftentimes is get student loans and they're traveling
(03:01):
and they're finding those five thousand dollars bad eggs that
we're talking about, and then sometimes they don't even finish
the school and they're left with the debt and they
don't have the degree, so they're not able to earn
the money that would allow them to pay the loans back.
So I came out of law school, college and law
school debt, so you know, a lot of debt. But
(03:23):
I was making the kind of money that would allow
me again on a budget and be frugal to pay
my student loans off. And the reality in this country
is there's evidence. You know, you've seen this. College graduates
over their lifetime make a lot more money than non
college graduates. And as a lawyer, or as a physician
(03:45):
or a nurse or any profession, you're likely to make
more money than that non professional personnel. You know, we're
setting aside all those you know, tech billionaires, and you.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Know there's athletes.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
We're not talking about the people that are going you know,
people are going to college. So I think it's a
tremendous investment. You know, know what you're getting into. Make
sure it's a reptible school that is not one of
these you know, fly by night for profit schools that's
just out to gouge. You try to get the best
interest rate that you can understand how much you're borrowing.
(04:18):
Borrow just what you need. Don't borrow for a vacation.
This is not you know, free vacation. This is not
free money because you don't have to pay it back
and then just plus interest and then figure out, you know,
the kind of job you're gonna need, and get on
a plan and you pay it off. I mean, I've
paid off thousands of thousands of dollars of students, of
(04:38):
thousands of dollars, tens of thousands, but it was so
worth If I had to do it again, I would
do it all over again. So I think people loans
get a bad rep But the reality is if you're poor,
even if you're middle class, Unfortunately, the cost of education
in this country is what it is. I wish it
were free. I wish these colleges, you know, they have
(04:58):
billions of dollars and endowments, you know, would make college
more affordable. Summer starting to like USC universities of then California,
families that make over eighty thousand, under eighty thousand, they
offer to wish free for those kids. I know, Yale
and Harvard all of us, like top schools in the
US are starting to make tuition free programs available to
(05:21):
middle class and low income kids, so they're opportunities to
go to school and a lot of instances without all
of the loans, because there are so many great programs
out there.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
You know what's really incredible is you talk about these
beautiful and strong women that created this village. And I'm
fascinated even just in the story of you know your godmother,
I guess who was almost like you know the financier.
She worked as a janitor, but she had this ability
to save. I think people on the outside looking and
(05:53):
they'll be like, well, it.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Was easy for her, it was innate for you.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
You know, you you're okay with sacrifice, but I want
the now bag.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Nor these wealthy kids. No, to the contrary, it was
not easy. I mean there was temptation all around. As
they would say, uh no, it took a lot of
and no, I am not perfect. And some years I
didn't save as much and I fell into a credit
card trap, which is, you know, the credit because when
(06:24):
you get to college, oh my god, every credit card
company in the world starts sending you credit cards, and
you you know, there is attractive and seductive, and I
ended up in a huge credit card uh you know
mess where you are charging food and charging again, you know, tickets,
and a year later, still paying this exorbitant interest rates
(06:48):
for activities you did a year ago. We remember who
did I go to that dinner with? And you're still
paying for it. And that's a trap and the credit
card companies know it. And I hate this about our country.
Credit your credit. You need credit in order to have
a high credit absolutely, so that's what they tell young people.
You got to have You have to have credit to
(07:09):
have a high credit score. You have to show you
hold your card and you pay it every thirty days.
That makes a lot of sense except a lot of
you know, kids don't have that discipline to do that,
They don't have the financial resources to do that, and
they end up in this spiral and this trap around
credit card. So I've been there. So anyone thinking that
(07:30):
it was easy, No, it wasn't easy. Remember poor poverty,
no father, not living with my mother, grandmother in a wheelchair.
Nothing easy about it. So let's be clear about that.
But you know, you do what you have to do.
And I did learn some lessons and I try to
remember those lessons in some days you know better at
it than others.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Well, you also wrote an incredible book called Awakening Ladies,
Leadership and the Lies we've been told, Yes, tell me
what it was like to sit down and put all
this into a book as an author, and what was
really the impetus for you to write it down in
kind of book.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, the impetus was the conversation that we were having
in this country around race and systemic racism. And as
we're having the conversation, as a civil rights warrior, I
was really engaged in that conversation and really excited to
see for the you know, in this era that people
were willing to acknowledge and explore systemic racism. But you know,
(08:29):
I said, okay, but there's another piece of this too.
And as a woman, and as a woman of color,
I experienced not only racism, a great deal of sexism.
And you know, there are only five percent of the
lawyers in this country are African American, five very white,
male dominated profession. Even though now there you'll find probably
(08:52):
equal numbers of women and men in law school, so
you know, you'll start to see more women, but not
necessarily more black women. So when I started my practice,
I was always mistaken for the court reporter, or the paralegal,
or the secretary or you know, anybody other than the lawyer.
(09:13):
So and it was always in my mind, is it
the race or is it the sex? And it was
probably both, you know, oftentimes it was both. So I
wanted to also have an honest conversation not just about race.
Race is very important to me, but also about sex
and gender. And one of the hardest things in this
book that I had to do, because one of the
lies that I had to confront was the work ethic
(09:37):
that the lie and I call it a lie I'm
saying in a loving way that my godmother and grandmother
instilled in me about work because they suggested to me
that if I just worked hard, that I would get ahead,
you know. And they too had bought into, you know,
(09:57):
America as a meritocracy, so I don't you know, they
taught me what they knew, but I know better. And
so when you know better, you do better. And we're
not a meritocracy. And sometimes it doesn't matter how hard
you work, you as a woman, still may not get
on that job, the same salary, the same promotion opportunities,
(10:18):
the same benefits as that male. You may not get
the same clients, you may not get the same projects,
And that has nothing to do with your work so
here I am. I you literally cannot outwork me. I
mean literally, I'm like the artist working person. That's what
I was taught to do. And as I got to
be an adult and you know, started to realize, you
know what, in some environments, it doesn't matter how hard
(10:41):
I work because it's not about me. It's about the system. Yes,
and the system is set up to advance certain people,
and those people don't look like me. So I had
to confront that, and for me, in some ways, it
was like challenging the women that loved me.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And raised me.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So that was a that was emotional for me.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
That's a big mine is I've lived my life.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Being this hard.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
With I work hard, I'll get to where. That's a
big one.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And you know, especially in law, I have a lot
of friends that are black women who are lawyers. And
what was fascinating to me is a lot of them
aren't practicing anymore. And again this it comes back to
whether or not it was gender or the fact that
they're black women in law.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
They're just it's hard.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It's very difficult, and it's very disheartening and it's very hard.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yes, and you know, there's so many of us that
have these conversations. They're like, you want to go to
work and work hard, but it's it can be just
a beat down.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yes, And if you look in the legal profession, the
number of judges, you know, it's always the conversation about
the lack of black women in federal judge ships. You
look across the largest corporate law firms in this country,
firms where lawyers are making two, three, four five million
dollars a year in salaries, they're not I mean it's
a handful. I can count them on two hands the
(11:58):
number of Black women that are in those positions. So
women often go into those jobs and they get churned out,
you know, the system just turns them out. So that
confronting that line was very difficult for me. But I
wanted to have conversations like this about women and the
things that we think we've been taught are the issues,
(12:22):
when really it's not us because we can't work any harder.
And you've seen this statistic that women, particularly black women,
were amongst the most edueducated demographic in this country. Yes,
so why doesn't that translate? Why aren't there you know,
just hordes of black women in the c suites and
(12:42):
big corporations since, which is supposed to be a you know, demic. Yes,
but there's supposed to be this connection, right, a dotted
line between higher education, get your law degree, get your MBA,
get a PhD. And that should open up opportunities. Now,
of course it does, but there are still barriers once
you get to a or eployees, which is why you know,
on a good year we might have two black women
(13:05):
as CEOs. In most years we have zero.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Rosalind Brewers just was ask nicely. Yeah, so with zero
any given year is more often than not is zero.
She was only there two years. Yeah, I mean so
that was a really brief stint for her. So that's
what the book I wrote.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
We still up to Sonda Asanda is still at TIA.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I was trying to think about, yes, there's one one
other because I was like, wait, every down to night
we lost fifty so what you know, I want to
at least sometimes there aren't. There's always encouraging words, yes,
but is there what do you say to you know,
women of you know that are working hard. We've been taught,
(13:53):
we just work hard, We're going to get there. And
these are the coffee table conversations I have with my
girlfriends and stuff like.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
How do we support each other?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
You know, we know and I love this a loving
lie that we've perpetuated. But how do we support each
other and how do we make it through to the
other side?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Well, I think we you know, we don't stop working hard.
We work smarter. Right, we use this knowledge that we
now have. We know it's the system. We know it's
not us. We can get over imposter syndrome because we
know there's nothing wrong with us. We know we are worthy,
we are available, we're talented, we're skilled, we can do
the job, and we've just got to affirm that for
(14:31):
ourselves and our circle of friends. We have to do
that all the time. Good Morning, gorgeous, Morning, gorgeous, Good morning,
gorgeous is such an important part of this. It's just
that affirmation, and we can't give up. You know, the
civil rights leaders in the fifties and sixties often would
remind each other and I think remind future generations show
(14:55):
equality is not one in one generation. It's every generation's
response ability to keep fighting. So we don't get tired,
we don't get weary, and you know, we have to
sit down and take a break. You know, we have
to sit back sometimes, but we have to just keep pushing.
We can't give in, you know, and we reject the patriarchy.
(15:17):
I say that the patriot we rejected, just rejected it.
It's hard when you've been agatting culcated with these messages.
Is easier for, you know, to rejected to start teaching
girls at ten and twelve years old to do that,
but for women who've been in the workplace and who
have been you know, witness to these structural barriers and
(15:40):
witnesses to the guy that you've trained, who now is
your CEO. I have a good friend. She's a white woman,
went to Stanford, has an NBA from Stanford, and she
tells me to this day she was like the smartest,
had the best grades with tutor, helped all these guys,
these white guys, they're all CFOs CEOs. And she has
(16:00):
struggled because she took time off. She had kids and
she has a son. Both her sons have some disabilities,
one with autism, and her husband was a lawyer. But
she Stanford MBA, became the main advocate care of the household.
And then she's trying to get back into the workplace.
(16:21):
She's looking at these guys, these guys that she tutored,
who are now at the heads of these companies, and
she's struggling to get back into the workplace. And that
is just such a common story. And when I wrote
the book, I interviewed her, and I interviewed so many
women like that who were either in a position and
found themselves out of a position, either forced out of
(16:44):
a job, left because it was such a toxic environment,
or in her case, left to you know, be the
primary caretaker for her two sons.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
So there's a company in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
It's called Mom Courts, and it was started for this
exact reason, because they're so many women who are highly educated,
no I mean just the top echelon, right, and they
have kids, they take a break, they're managing a family,
and they want to go back. Yes, they might not
want to go back five days a week, forty hours,
but let me tell you, women, even at fifteen hours,
(17:17):
you know that what we give to our jobs, what
we give to our roles, surpasses a forty hour work week.
And they started this company to address that. How do
you help them transition back into the corporate workplace. Maybe
part time. Maybe this knowing that this and even that
company they were a sourcing.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
And staffing company.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Even that company with this dedicated she had trouble raising
money because people are like, I don't know, is that
really feasible?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
So this viable.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
This part of the patriarchy is we're talking about it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And I love using that word because it's strong, and
I think it makes men go, oh, why do we
have to.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Call it that?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
I love it, so it does say that's such a
bold word, and we are using it intentionally, yes, to
make people know, like we know what's up and we
are trying to break this down and having these conversations.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
But I appreciate any other lies that you talk about.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, I focus on five. Obviously, the book would have
been two thousand pounds articulated every lie that we've been
told as women. But I hone in on the five,
the five that I think most of us have been
told at some point in our lives. And the second
one it's not necessarily in this order, but one of
the other ones is about looks right. So this is
(18:35):
our country where the beauty industry, you know, is multi
multi billion dollar beauty industry, but yet women are often
told that a couple of conflicting messages about looks. Either
we're told looks don't matter, and it's what you bring
to the table. Again, it's your productivity, it's your you know,
(18:56):
your product that you produce, that's all that matters. Just
focus on at Or we're told that as black women
in particular, that our looks are not Eurocentric enough, like
we can't wear raids or natural hair, or you know,
you can't look a certain way. You know, you're in
the media. I work in the media, and women have
(19:18):
to struggle with am I going on national television with braids?
Am I going with a wig or a weave? And
you know, all of these things that we have to
think about in terms of our looks. That is counter
to the message that your looks do matter. Right, it's
just your hard work, and it's your hard work, it's
your talent. But that is a lie. And we know
(19:39):
there's studies that have been the lighter skinned women get
privileges that darker skinned women don't get. Thinner women are
treated differently than heavier women. So all of these things
that women have to contend with, you know, around looks.
You know, now we're you know Lizo and women, you know,
this whole focus on body positivity. Just be who you are.
(20:00):
And still people are like, well, you know, you know,
I really wish she would do this or I wish
she would do that. So you know, you can't win, right,
we can't win. And literally these stories people, Literally when
you're on TV, I use time to go and find
my website, get me find my email, to send me
(20:21):
an email. You know, your makeup is really too gray
for you. Makeup is really too dark? Is that your
real hair? My aunt I have? And this is lovingly
again having a fight with her friends about my nickname
growing up was Reebe. Is that Reebe's real hair? Because
you know she always had really long, thin care. I'm like,
what does it matter if I bought it as mine?
(20:42):
It's my hair. But again, those are the things that
lie that looks. You know, so many conflicting messages around it,
and we see it leads to a woman having eating disorders,
self doubt, the impostures, depression, anxiety, I mean, real mental
(21:04):
health issues. You remember the amazingly beautiful young woman who
was the beauty Queen NBA larwyor Chrisly. I had not
I didn't meet her, but I had an opportunity to
interview her mom a couple of times. I've gotten to
know her mom, and she suffered from depressions. So she
(21:24):
had some serious mental health issues. But a part of
it was, you know, she became a beauty queen. She
was almost twenty eight or so, feeling like working in
the media, she was already too old and she was
twenty eight years old. But the other pageant you know
queens were nineteen twenty culture with pageant culture is you know, vicious,
(21:45):
so already and this was I mean, this girl had
an NBA, she had a JD, she was an extra
you know, red carpet correspondent, so on the surface she
had everything, but still she did not feel like she
was worthy and she had enough and a lot of it,
and talking to her mom was the messages, the images,
(22:05):
and she was biracial, and the hate she would you know,
white people say, well, you think, you know, you're not
acting white enough. Black people say you're not acting black,
and she was just torn and it really had you know,
it's worse than her mental health issue. So that is
a huge lie and we grapple with that. And one
of the messages we send to young girls and you know,
(22:27):
about their bodies, about their hair, and the patriarchy goes
way back. White men have been policing black bodies from
day one, telling us what we can wear, what we
can be, how we can act, how we can wear
our hair. And again, you know, it's our time to
reject that, to reject and that's why I just rank
(22:51):
and who we are. I just love that who you
are be authentically you, and I love that in this moment,
at least there is some conversation of at it's some
awareness and acceptance. And then don't get me started on
black men, because they too start. Let's because I love them,
married to one, you know, love them, but they've been
(23:14):
inundated with those white supremacy messages about what looks good
and what women should look like, which is why we
see a lot of black men reject black women, darker
skin black women, you know, women that don't fit again,
that euro centric uh, you know, aesthetic. We've been having
(23:36):
this conversation with someone about the whole uh, Erica Mina. Oh,
and you know, do black men prefer kind of ambiguous
race and exotic you know, women who are ambiguous in
terms of their race, and you know that's an issue
in our culture that we got to be open and oboly.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Thanks for listening to today's episode. If we helped you
make your money move, please share it with your community,
subscribe and leave us a review on iHeartRadio and Apple podcasts.
Follow us on social media at Greenwood and visit us
at Gogreenwood dot com for more financial tips and remember,
money Movers, If this.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Were easy, everyone would do it.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
So take the lessons you've learned from this episode and
apply it to your life. Money Moves is an iHeartRadio
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For more podcasts on iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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(24:37):
Money Moves podcast powered by Greenwood, so that you too
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Until next time,
Thanks to MasterCard for sponsoring this episode. Head to MasterCard
dot com Backslash Small Bids to learn how they're amplifying
and supporting black women entrepreneurs.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You know, know what you're getting into. Make sure it's
a reptible school that's not one of these you know,
fly by night for profit schools that's just out to gouge. You.
Try to get the best interest rate that you can
understand how much you're borrowing. Borrow just what you need.
Don't borrow for vacation. This is not you know, free vacation.
(00:31):
This is not free money because you don't have to
pay it back and then just plus interest and then
figure out, you know, the kind of job you gotta
need and get on a plant and you pay it off.
I mean, I've paid off thousands and thousands of dollars,
loens of thousands of dollars, tens of thousands, but it
was so worth If I had to do it again,
I would do it all over again.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
You're listening to Money News powered by greenwayd a finance
podcast dedicated to dropping all the knowledge and gems from
the world's leading celebrities, entrepreneurs, ands and tech, business and more.
I'm your host, angel investor, technology enthusiast, and media personality
Tanya Sam. Each week we talk with guests who are
making significant strides in their fields and learn how they
(01:12):
are making their money boot.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
If you're someone who's looking to make your money move,
You're in the right place.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So open up your notes app and lock us in
because this podcast will give you the keys to the
kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance you so rightly deserve.
Before we start the episode, I'd like to remind you
to check us out at gogreenwood dot com and follow
us on social media at Greenwood and me on all
Things social at It's Tanya. Time to stay locked in
(01:39):
to new episode.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Hey money Movers, welcome back.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Today we continue our conversation with California super lawyer and
best selling author Areva Martin.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I have a question for.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
You, because this is something I've always wondered, you know,
as we look at building wealth, building legacy and investing
in ourselves. You went to Harvard Law School, without question,
one of the most prestigious How do you feel now
for folks that are considering law, you know, to change
their lives, change the lives of their families, but also
need to go into it getting student loans. There's so
(02:13):
much talk with student loans right now and whether or
not it's worth the investment.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, and you know, actually there are a lot of
people who now are saying that they're not encouraging their
children to go even to a four year college because
of the cost, because of the student loans. I don't
agree with that. Here's how I think about loans. I
think about a loan for education as an investment in yourself.
(02:40):
And if you were going to get ahead in life,
you've got to be able to invest in you, whether
it's a wardrobe or you know, whether it's getting your
teeth fixed. People get their teeth fixed. I mean, there
are all kinds of investments you have to make, depending
on the industry. And so student loans when taken out
for a school. Now, what we say a lot of
folks do oftentimes is get student loans and they're traveling
(03:01):
and they're finding those five thousand dollars bad eggs that
we're talking about, and then sometimes they don't even finish
the school and they're left with the debt and they
don't have the degree, so they're not able to earn
the money that would allow them to pay the loans back.
So I came out of law school, college and law
school debt, so you know, a lot of debt. But
(03:23):
I was making the kind of money that would allow
me again on a budget and be frugal to pay
my student loans off. And the reality in this country
is there's evidence. You know, you've seen this. College graduates
over their lifetime make a lot more money than non
college graduates. And as a lawyer, or as a physician
(03:45):
or a nurse or any profession, you're likely to make
more money than that non professional personnel. You know, we're
setting aside all those you know, tech billionaires, and you.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Know there's athletes.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
We're not talking about the people that are going you know,
people are going to college. So I think it's a
tremendous investment. You know, know what you're getting into. Make
sure it's a reptible school that is not one of
these you know, fly by night for profit schools that's
just out to gouge. You try to get the best
interest rate that you can understand how much you're borrowing.
(04:18):
Borrow just what you need. Don't borrow for a vacation.
This is not you know, free vacation. This is not
free money because you don't have to pay it back
and then just plus interest and then figure out, you know,
the kind of job you're gonna need, and get on
a plan and you pay it off. I mean, I've
paid off thousands of thousands of dollars of students, of
(04:38):
thousands of dollars, tens of thousands, but it was so
worth If I had to do it again, I would
do it all over again. So I think people loans
get a bad rep But the reality is if you're poor,
even if you're middle class, Unfortunately, the cost of education
in this country is what it is. I wish it
were free. I wish these colleges, you know, they have
(04:58):
billions of dollars and endowments, you know, would make college
more affordable. Summer starting to like USC universities of then California,
families that make over eighty thousand, under eighty thousand, they
offer to wish free for those kids. I know, Yale
and Harvard all of us, like top schools in the
US are starting to make tuition free programs available to
(05:21):
middle class and low income kids, so they're opportunities to
go to school and a lot of instances without all
of the loans, because there are so many great programs
out there.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
You know what's really incredible is you talk about these
beautiful and strong women that created this village. And I'm
fascinated even just in the story of you know your godmother,
I guess who was almost like you know the financier.
She worked as a janitor, but she had this ability
to save. I think people on the outside looking and
(05:53):
they'll be like, well, it.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Was easy for her, it was innate for you.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
You know, you you're okay with sacrifice, but I want
the now bag.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Nor these wealthy kids. No, to the contrary, it was
not easy. I mean there was temptation all around. As
they would say, uh no, it took a lot of
and no, I am not perfect. And some years I
didn't save as much and I fell into a credit
card trap, which is, you know, the credit because when
(06:24):
you get to college, oh my god, every credit card
company in the world starts sending you credit cards, and
you you know, there is attractive and seductive, and I
ended up in a huge credit card uh you know
mess where you are charging food and charging again, you know, tickets,
and a year later, still paying this exorbitant interest rates
(06:48):
for activities you did a year ago. We remember who
did I go to that dinner with? And you're still
paying for it. And that's a trap and the credit
card companies know it. And I hate this about our country.
Credit your credit. You need credit in order to have
a high credit absolutely, so that's what they tell young people.
You got to have You have to have credit to
(07:09):
have a high credit score. You have to show you
hold your card and you pay it every thirty days.
That makes a lot of sense except a lot of
you know, kids don't have that discipline to do that,
They don't have the financial resources to do that, and
they end up in this spiral and this trap around
credit card. So I've been there. So anyone thinking that
(07:30):
it was easy, No, it wasn't easy. Remember poor poverty,
no father, not living with my mother, grandmother in a wheelchair.
Nothing easy about it. So let's be clear about that.
But you know, you do what you have to do.
And I did learn some lessons and I try to
remember those lessons in some days you know better at
it than others.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Well, you also wrote an incredible book called Awakening Ladies,
Leadership and the Lies we've been told, Yes, tell me
what it was like to sit down and put all
this into a book as an author, and what was
really the impetus for you to write it down in
kind of book.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, the impetus was the conversation that we were having
in this country around race and systemic racism. And as
we're having the conversation, as a civil rights warrior, I
was really engaged in that conversation and really excited to
see for the you know, in this era that people
were willing to acknowledge and explore systemic racism. But you know,
(08:29):
I said, okay, but there's another piece of this too.
And as a woman, and as a woman of color,
I experienced not only racism, a great deal of sexism.
And you know, there are only five percent of the
lawyers in this country are African American, five very white,
male dominated profession. Even though now there you'll find probably
(08:52):
equal numbers of women and men in law school, so
you know, you'll start to see more women, but not
necessarily more black women. So when I started my practice,
I was always mistaken for the court reporter, or the paralegal,
or the secretary or you know, anybody other than the lawyer.
(09:13):
So and it was always in my mind, is it
the race or is it the sex? And it was
probably both, you know, oftentimes it was both. So I
wanted to also have an honest conversation not just about race.
Race is very important to me, but also about sex
and gender. And one of the hardest things in this
book that I had to do, because one of the
lies that I had to confront was the work ethic
(09:37):
that the lie and I call it a lie I'm
saying in a loving way that my godmother and grandmother
instilled in me about work because they suggested to me
that if I just worked hard, that I would get ahead,
you know. And they too had bought into, you know,
(09:57):
America as a meritocracy, so I don't you know, they
taught me what they knew, but I know better. And
so when you know better, you do better. And we're
not a meritocracy. And sometimes it doesn't matter how hard
you work, you as a woman, still may not get
on that job, the same salary, the same promotion opportunities,
(10:18):
the same benefits as that male. You may not get
the same clients, you may not get the same projects,
And that has nothing to do with your work so
here I am. I you literally cannot outwork me. I
mean literally, I'm like the artist working person. That's what
I was taught to do. And as I got to
be an adult and you know, started to realize, you
know what, in some environments, it doesn't matter how hard
(10:41):
I work because it's not about me. It's about the system. Yes,
and the system is set up to advance certain people,
and those people don't look like me. So I had
to confront that, and for me, in some ways, it
was like challenging the women that loved me.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And raised me.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So that was a that was emotional for me.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
That's a big mine is I've lived my life.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Being this hard.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
With I work hard, I'll get to where. That's a
big one.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And you know, especially in law, I have a lot
of friends that are black women who are lawyers. And
what was fascinating to me is a lot of them
aren't practicing anymore. And again this it comes back to
whether or not it was gender or the fact that
they're black women in law.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
They're just it's hard.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It's very difficult, and it's very disheartening and it's very hard.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yes, and you know, there's so many of us that
have these conversations. They're like, you want to go to
work and work hard, but it's it can be just
a beat down.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yes, And if you look in the legal profession, the
number of judges, you know, it's always the conversation about
the lack of black women in federal judge ships. You
look across the largest corporate law firms in this country,
firms where lawyers are making two, three, four five million
dollars a year in salaries, they're not I mean it's
a handful. I can count them on two hands the
(11:58):
number of Black women that are in those positions. So
women often go into those jobs and they get churned out,
you know, the system just turns them out. So that
confronting that line was very difficult for me. But I
wanted to have conversations like this about women and the
things that we think we've been taught are the issues,
(12:22):
when really it's not us because we can't work any harder.
And you've seen this statistic that women, particularly black women,
were amongst the most edueducated demographic in this country. Yes,
so why doesn't that translate? Why aren't there you know,
just hordes of black women in the c suites and
(12:42):
big corporations since, which is supposed to be a you know, demic. Yes,
but there's supposed to be this connection, right, a dotted
line between higher education, get your law degree, get your MBA,
get a PhD. And that should open up opportunities. Now,
of course it does, but there are still barriers once
you get to a or eployees, which is why you know,
on a good year we might have two black women
(13:05):
as CEOs. In most years we have zero.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Rosalind Brewers just was ask nicely. Yeah, so with zero
any given year is more often than not is zero.
She was only there two years. Yeah, I mean so
that was a really brief stint for her. So that's
what the book I wrote.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
We still up to Sonda Asanda is still at TIA.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I was trying to think about, yes, there's one one
other because I was like, wait, every down to night
we lost fifty so what you know, I want to
at least sometimes there aren't. There's always encouraging words, yes,
but is there what do you say to you know,
women of you know that are working hard. We've been taught,
(13:53):
we just work hard, We're going to get there. And
these are the coffee table conversations I have with my
girlfriends and stuff like.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
How do we support each other?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
You know, we know and I love this a loving
lie that we've perpetuated. But how do we support each
other and how do we make it through to the
other side?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Well, I think we you know, we don't stop working hard.
We work smarter. Right, we use this knowledge that we
now have. We know it's the system. We know it's
not us. We can get over imposter syndrome because we
know there's nothing wrong with us. We know we are worthy,
we are available, we're talented, we're skilled, we can do
the job, and we've just got to affirm that for
(14:31):
ourselves and our circle of friends. We have to do
that all the time. Good Morning, gorgeous, Morning, gorgeous, Good morning,
gorgeous is such an important part of this. It's just
that affirmation, and we can't give up. You know, the
civil rights leaders in the fifties and sixties often would
remind each other and I think remind future generations show
(14:55):
equality is not one in one generation. It's every generation's
response ability to keep fighting. So we don't get tired,
we don't get weary, and you know, we have to
sit down and take a break. You know, we have
to sit back sometimes, but we have to just keep pushing.
We can't give in, you know, and we reject the patriarchy.
(15:17):
I say that the patriot we rejected, just rejected it.
It's hard when you've been agatting culcated with these messages.
Is easier for, you know, to rejected to start teaching
girls at ten and twelve years old to do that,
but for women who've been in the workplace and who
have been you know, witness to these structural barriers and
(15:40):
witnesses to the guy that you've trained, who now is
your CEO. I have a good friend. She's a white woman,
went to Stanford, has an NBA from Stanford, and she
tells me to this day she was like the smartest,
had the best grades with tutor, helped all these guys,
these white guys, they're all CFOs CEOs. And she has
(16:00):
struggled because she took time off. She had kids and
she has a son. Both her sons have some disabilities,
one with autism, and her husband was a lawyer. But
she Stanford MBA, became the main advocate care of the household.
And then she's trying to get back into the workplace.
(16:21):
She's looking at these guys, these guys that she tutored,
who are now at the heads of these companies, and
she's struggling to get back into the workplace. And that
is just such a common story. And when I wrote
the book, I interviewed her, and I interviewed so many
women like that who were either in a position and
found themselves out of a position, either forced out of
(16:44):
a job, left because it was such a toxic environment,
or in her case, left to you know, be the
primary caretaker for her two sons.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
So there's a company in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
It's called Mom Courts, and it was started for this
exact reason, because they're so many women who are highly educated,
no I mean just the top echelon, right, and they
have kids, they take a break, they're managing a family,
and they want to go back. Yes, they might not
want to go back five days a week, forty hours,
but let me tell you, women, even at fifteen hours,
(17:17):
you know that what we give to our jobs, what
we give to our roles, surpasses a forty hour work week.
And they started this company to address that. How do
you help them transition back into the corporate workplace. Maybe
part time. Maybe this knowing that this and even that
company they were a sourcing.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
And staffing company.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Even that company with this dedicated she had trouble raising
money because people are like, I don't know, is that
really feasible?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
So this viable.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
This part of the patriarchy is we're talking about it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And I love using that word because it's strong, and
I think it makes men go, oh, why do we
have to.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Call it that?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
I love it, so it does say that's such a
bold word, and we are using it intentionally, yes, to
make people know, like we know what's up and we
are trying to break this down and having these conversations.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
But I appreciate any other lies that you talk about.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, I focus on five. Obviously, the book would have
been two thousand pounds articulated every lie that we've been
told as women. But I hone in on the five,
the five that I think most of us have been
told at some point in our lives. And the second
one it's not necessarily in this order, but one of
the other ones is about looks right. So this is
(18:35):
our country where the beauty industry, you know, is multi
multi billion dollar beauty industry, but yet women are often
told that a couple of conflicting messages about looks. Either
we're told looks don't matter, and it's what you bring
to the table. Again, it's your productivity, it's your you know,
(18:56):
your product that you produce, that's all that matters. Just
focus on at Or we're told that as black women
in particular, that our looks are not Eurocentric enough, like
we can't wear raids or natural hair, or you know,
you can't look a certain way. You know, you're in
the media. I work in the media, and women have
(19:18):
to struggle with am I going on national television with braids?
Am I going with a wig or a weave? And
you know, all of these things that we have to
think about in terms of our looks. That is counter
to the message that your looks do matter. Right, it's
just your hard work, and it's your hard work, it's
your talent. But that is a lie. And we know
(19:39):
there's studies that have been the lighter skinned women get
privileges that darker skinned women don't get. Thinner women are
treated differently than heavier women. So all of these things
that women have to contend with, you know, around looks.
You know, now we're you know Lizo and women, you know,
this whole focus on body positivity. Just be who you are.
(20:00):
And still people are like, well, you know, you know,
I really wish she would do this or I wish
she would do that. So you know, you can't win, right,
we can't win. And literally these stories people, Literally when
you're on TV, I use time to go and find
my website, get me find my email, to send me
(20:21):
an email. You know, your makeup is really too gray
for you. Makeup is really too dark? Is that your
real hair? My aunt I have? And this is lovingly
again having a fight with her friends about my nickname
growing up was Reebe. Is that Reebe's real hair? Because
you know she always had really long, thin care. I'm like,
what does it matter if I bought it as mine?
(20:42):
It's my hair. But again, those are the things that
lie that looks. You know, so many conflicting messages around it,
and we see it leads to a woman having eating disorders,
self doubt, the impostures, depression, anxiety, I mean, real mental
(21:04):
health issues. You remember the amazingly beautiful young woman who
was the beauty Queen NBA larwyor Chrisly. I had not
I didn't meet her, but I had an opportunity to
interview her mom a couple of times. I've gotten to
know her mom, and she suffered from depressions. So she
(21:24):
had some serious mental health issues. But a part of
it was, you know, she became a beauty queen. She
was almost twenty eight or so, feeling like working in
the media, she was already too old and she was
twenty eight years old. But the other pageant you know
queens were nineteen twenty culture with pageant culture is you know, vicious,
(21:45):
so already and this was I mean, this girl had
an NBA, she had a JD, she was an extra
you know, red carpet correspondent, so on the surface she
had everything, but still she did not feel like she
was worthy and she had enough and a lot of it,
and talking to her mom was the messages, the images,
(22:05):
and she was biracial, and the hate she would you know,
white people say, well, you think, you know, you're not
acting white enough. Black people say you're not acting black,
and she was just torn and it really had you know,
it's worse than her mental health issue. So that is
a huge lie and we grapple with that. And one
of the messages we send to young girls and you know,
(22:27):
about their bodies, about their hair, and the patriarchy goes
way back. White men have been policing black bodies from
day one, telling us what we can wear, what we
can be, how we can act, how we can wear
our hair. And again, you know, it's our time to
reject that, to reject and that's why I just rank
(22:51):
and who we are. I just love that who you
are be authentically you, and I love that in this moment,
at least there is some conversation of at it's some
awareness and acceptance. And then don't get me started on
black men, because they too start. Let's because I love them,
married to one, you know, love them, but they've been
(23:14):
inundated with those white supremacy messages about what looks good
and what women should look like, which is why we
see a lot of black men reject black women, darker
skin black women, you know, women that don't fit again,
that euro centric uh, you know, aesthetic. We've been having
(23:36):
this conversation with someone about the whole uh, Erica Mina. Oh,
and you know, do black men prefer kind of ambiguous
race and exotic you know, women who are ambiguous in
terms of their race, and you know that's an issue
in our culture that we got to be open and oboly.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Thanks for listening to today's episode. If we helped you
make your money move, please share it with your community,
subscribe and leave us a review on iHeartRadio and Apple podcasts.
Follow us on social media at Greenwood and visit us
at Gogreenwood dot com for more financial tips and remember,
money Movers, If this.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Were easy, everyone would do it.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
So take the lessons you've learned from this episode and
apply it to your life. Money Moves is an iHeartRadio
podcast powered by Greenwood Executive produced by Sunwise Media, Inc.
For more podcasts on iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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(24:37):
Money Moves podcast powered by Greenwood, so that you too
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