February 10, 2025 • 35 mins
Susan and Larry Hatteberg reflect on their time covering the BTK story at KAKE TV.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, guys, come on in Hio. Where are you?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm good, Larry, Little Susie Peters, how Larry John Sorry,
we have to hug. Yeah. Good Singulary, Good, Singulary. Welcome
to a special bonus episode of Monster BTK. This is
a sit down interview I did with my former k
TV colleague Larry Hadiberg last summer. I caught up with
(00:30):
Larry at his home in Wichitah. He and I reflect
on our work together covering the BTK story all these
years later.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
So what does it feel like for both you to
have such a major role in the BTK story.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We felt like we needed to be part of the
process of catching him, and we knew every time we
would say something on TV or we would do a story,
which was ever all day, but we knew every time
we would react to his communications was the chance for
him to communicate again. And all we were trying to
(01:09):
do is the media, in addition to informing the public,
was to try and get communication out of him. And
I know there was one instance with you, Larry, where
you said something directly to him on the air.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yes, I decided that we should communicate with him because
my feeling was if he's communicating with us, He's not
killing So I went on the air and said BTK
if you're listening, and then gave a little spiel about that,
indicating that the PD wanted to keep the communication going,
(01:46):
and then we got some feedback. I do remember one
of the postcards that we got talked about you and
Jeff having a cold on the air, and that was
I think after I had gone on the air and
asked for the communications to continue.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
BTK from the get go made the media and in
particular CAKETV, part.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Of the story, and I think for a journalist that's
a terrible place to be. Is part of the story,
but there was no way to get out of it
because he enjoyed communicating with Cake TV. CAKETV was his
favorite station. He had watched it since he was a child.
He had been out there when we brought in Renten
ten one time, when ABC came out. He had been
(02:32):
out there for other children's shows. So he was very
much a part of the Cake family. He knew all
of us. He watched it every night. He still watches
it to this day, and it's a very odd feeling
to go to work every day and know that you
have to feed the national media, you have to feed
(02:53):
the local media, because many times Susan and I would
either be on a morning show or an evening show
like Larry King Live back in the day, and you're
serving two masters. And in journalism there is no book
written about how you do this. You know, we were
writing the book on how you cover BTK when you
(03:17):
are part of the story, and that was very difficult
for me.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I don't know about you, but it made me feel
a little bit gratified that we had a small part
in finally getting the sky well.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I think if it wasn't for the media, the communications
might have stopped. The very difficult part for me was
working with the police department. They did a great job
over the thirty years. It was a tough case. But
when we would get a postcard, obviously the police department
would want a copy of that postcard. Well, we would
(03:54):
give them the original and we would have a copy.
But it became many times a little difficult because the
police department, i think, sometimes resented us because we were
part of the story and they didn't want the media
to be part of the story. We couldn't help it,
we were, and so here we are trying to do
our job while the police department is trying to do theirs.
(04:17):
I had one thing happen in which we got a
postcard that indicated there was a package or another message
at one of the It was like a low's I
forget what It wasan home depot, that's right. So I
went out to Home Depot and we'd call the detectives
to come out to the station to get it. I
(04:39):
arrived there before they did. I went in talked to
the manager. I said, did you get a package?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
No?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Did you get a message from anyone that was unusual?
And I never used the term BTK? And he said no.
I said, okay. Later on in that day I get
a call from the district attorney indicating that they would
like to see me, the general man, manager, the news director,
and our attorney in her office eight am the next morning.
(05:05):
And when we got to her office, she said, you
arrived before the detectives And I said, well, that's a
matter of physics. Our station is just closer. She said,
but you got there ahead of them, and I said,
I walked in to home Depot like any other customer
would do. I asked a couple of questions. He didn't
(05:25):
have any answers. I left, and she said, we're considering
charging you with a felony interfering with a federal investigation.
And I said, how did I interfere? Tell me how
I interfered? I just walked in the store, asked the
manager a couple of questions, and left. And there wasn't
a great answer for that, and our attorney was already
(05:46):
going crazy. But I think what was happening was the
police department was feeling pressure from the media and didn't
like someone, as it appeared, showing up and interfering with
their investigation. So I took that as a warnt. But
that's the only time that I ever got crossways with them.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Like you say, our goal was the same, but we
had two goals, and that was informing the public and
catching BTK. Their only mission was to catch BTK, So
sometimes it crossed ways. And sometimes the investigators totally loved
us and used us, which we had no problem with.
(06:28):
But sometimes we crossed the line because we had another job.
And there were several times when I was am I
walking the line all right, and police would say no,
in so many words, you're not walking the line. All right,
go back to your journalism. And so it was a
very very tough thing. There was one time when I
(06:50):
called Detective John Spear during the ten o'clock news because
the guy who they thought was BTK that they arrested,
and said, who is this guy that you arrested? DA.
Of course he couldn't tell me, And the next day
I got a call from him and he said, don't
ever call me direct again. That kind of thing. So
(07:13):
the problem was we wanted to inform the public and
still get the scoop, so to speak. We never wanted
to ruin any investigation. We did follow the police department's
rules as much as we could because we wanted to
(07:33):
catch him as much as they did, because we were
in fear for our lives.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And a really strange thing was the day that I
had two detectives who I knew, both of them show
up in the front lobby of KKETV. They said, Larry,
is there someone where we can talk private? So I
took him up into the conference room and they said, Larry,
we need your DNA and I said why do you
need my DNA? And he says, well, we're getting tips
(08:02):
to the BTK hotline. That you're BTK. And I said,
why are they saying I'm BTK? And they said, well,
when you talk about it on television, you seem to
know a lot about it. You've been to the crime scenes,
you've followed it since nineteen seventy four, and what we're
trying to do is to rule you out. And I said, okay,
(08:22):
let's do it. So they swabbed me and I said,
how will I know for the results? And they said, well,
if you don't see a swat team coming into Cake,
you'll know that you passed. I said, okay.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
They swabbed some two hundred people. I knew two or
three people were swabed. Not only Larry Hadiberg, the godfather
of my second child, was swabbed as well, because he
went to Wichita State the same time as BTK. That's
what was so weird about all this. We knew BTK
(09:02):
was the guy next door. What if he really was
the guy next door? What if he really was Yeah,
what if he really was the godfather of my child?
You know? What if he really was an anchor person?
I mean, nobody knew at that particular point in time.
(09:24):
That was also frightening. Of course, I knew it wasn't Larry.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
But thank you. But at the time, we're not talking
about each other's feelings. We're just trying to survive the
day to get the story on the air. She's working
her sources, I'm working my sources. I remember one day
we showed up at btk's attorney's office together.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
At the same time.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I didn't know she was going to be there. She
didn't know I was going to be there, you know.
So we're all trying to do our job, but we're
not talking to each other about feelings. What we're talking
about is trying to get the story and trying to
inform the public. And that's what is so weird. Just
us talking about it now is probably the first time
we have ever talked about feelings about it, because the
(10:14):
rest of the time it was just the job. We're
doing the job and we're trying to inform the public
to the best way that we can. And Susan and
I weren't working together. She was working on her stories.
I was working on my stories. But in reality, we
were working together because of this thing of trying to
inform the public. So it was a different time.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Larry's one hundred percent right. We didn't talk about our feelings.
Larry had no idea how scared I was. No one
had any idea how scared I was. We didn't talk
about things like that. Larry and I never talked about
her anyone in the newsroom. I'm afraid we hate this guy.
(10:58):
No feelings were talked about at all.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Do you remember one night when we were walking out
of Cake. It was quarter eleven or so, and we
get just past the concrete stepping into the thing, and
a bicyclist is down at the end of our driveway
(11:23):
and he comes at us seemed like one hundred miles
an hour, and I thought we're in trouble. Thought I
didn't know who that guy was. And he's coming at
us a one hundred miles an hour on that bicycle
pulls up in front of us, and I thought we're
going to shot stab something here something. And he was
just a viewer. But I felt fair at that point,
(11:45):
and I'm sure you did.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I was glad you were with me. I had tremendous fear.
BTK knew where we were every single day at ten
o'clock and ten thirty and six o'clock and six thirty
after we got the postcard that said, I hope Susan's
and Jeff's cold gets better. From that day on, I
(12:07):
had a reporter or a photographer follow me all the
way home because he knows where we are. He was
watching us every night.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
In this case, I mean, we really care about each other,
and we've anchored together and done so many projects over
the course of time that I think we really understand
each other. And as I say, we don't agree on everything,
but that's okay. You know, that's okay. We are completely
(12:37):
and totally different personalities, but Susan is the finest co
anchor slash anchor who I've ever worked with in my career,
and we understood each other. We don't always agree on everything,
but I love her to death and always will because
(12:57):
she is the most professional anchor that I have ever
had the opportunity to be with. And when we were
anchoring together, if I got into trouble, she could take over,
and she knew instantly if she got into trouble, I
took over and we saved each other that way, and
we did that without talking. We just instinctively could respond
(13:18):
to each other's feelings, and that's rare that is rare
in television. I know in many stations the co ankers
don't like each other. You know that happens a lot.
I am so thankful that during the BTK years she
was by my side. It made a huge difference, huge difference.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
It made a huge difference that he was by my side.
Larry was very protective of me when he walked me
out to my car. I knew BTK would never harm
Larry had to work. They had like a little relationship
from the seventies. I knew BTK would never harmle Larry Howdeberg.
(14:00):
So I felt very safe with Larry walking me out
to the car because I knew BTK would never do
anything to Larry.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
I didn't know that, Yeah, no, I didn't know that.
And we knew that he basically attacked mostly women, with
exception of the Atero family. We didn't know that. I
just knew that this was an odd time in my
journalism history, and the Susan and I were in it together,
(14:31):
and Jeff and several of the other reporters who worked
very hard on this, and we had to cover each
other's butts in this thing because we didn't know where
it was going. We didn't know how it was going
to end. And you know, when we do interviews like this,
we all have the benefit of hindsight. But when you're
living with the BTK story before he's caught, you have
(14:53):
no idea who this guy is, You have no idea
where the story's going, you have no idea of the outcome.
So it's a really different time. And to be able
to talk about it in hindsight is one thing, but
when you're living it, as I say, Sudan and I
never had these conversations. We were just scrambling to get
the story on the air in hopes to serve the
(15:14):
viewer every night.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
This is the first time I've realized that. I think
it says that we had to put all of our
feelings aside, as Larry said, all of our fears, all
of our sadness, all of our frustration, all of our anger,
like everybody had, we had to put all that aside
(15:39):
and do our job. It was really good with Larry
and I because Larry chased the whole BTK angle, the
whole the criminal, and I chased the victim angle, and
so we were all working on different things. Larry was
working on reaction from BTK, and I was working on
(16:05):
let's find these victims' families and tell the real story
of these victims that are still out there. And so yeah,
we each had our own little thing that we were
working on and that made it successful.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And that was Susan's specialty working with those family members,
and she did an absolute great job with it and
really got some incredible insight from the family members. And
I think it's important to remember the family because you know,
what happened to us is nothing. What happened to the
(16:43):
families is everything. Those families' lives have been changed forever
in so many difficult and unusual ways that we'll never
know about. But it's the families who bear the ultimate
suffering of what bt did. And you know, we concentrate
on BTK because A, he's still alive, b he's still
(17:05):
being BTK. But the families are basically sitting all across
the city, all across the state, and in silence because
they don't want to think about it. They don't want
to relive the moments, and I'm guessing that they would
not want to do this to have their comments on
(17:26):
the air, so they live in silence. And I think
that burden for me would really be overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
The relationship between Larry and I during that whole year,
it was something very special. We became very very good
friends during that year and very protective of each other.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Can we get into the capture of Dennis Raider.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I'll never forget it.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Oh, go ahead, be my guess.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Of course, all the TV stations were live covering every
single millisecond of his way to prison. He leaves downtown Wichita.
We have a helicopter in the sky following the caravan
to Eldorado Prison, which is about thirty miles away. The
(18:22):
helicopters in the sky. I remember following the car. I
remember watching the car. I remember the car pulling up
to the Eldorado Prison doors. I remember them getting Dennis
Raider out in his jumpsuit, foot ankle cuffs and handcuffs,
(18:45):
and then walking him into that prison. I remember the
live shot of the prison door shutting. I have never
been so relieved, so for lack of a better word,
emotionally spent. I remember I started to cry, thinking to myself,
(19:10):
the nightmare is over for Wichita. The nightmare is finally over,
not only for us, for Larry and I and other
members of the media, because it was a nightmare for
us as well, but for all of Wichita, the nightmare
was over. I started crying, and one other thing that
(19:35):
struck me from that. Of course, that day we led
with his incarceration forever and ever. All those stories aired
that day, the five, six, and ten o'clock news, and
all that I remember. The next day and the day
after and the day after, we didn't mention his name,
(19:56):
and it was so refreshing not to have his name
mentioned on our newscast. And I'm sure it's what he
wanted forever and ever and ever. I don't know if
we mentioned his name for a couple months after that,
and that's what was so refreshing. I don't know how
(20:19):
Larry felt, but when the prison doors closed, I could
physically feel this huge weight lifted from my shoulders. Mind you,
we've covered a zillion trials, a zillion homicide cases, a
zillion never one like this where you'd feel this weight
lifted off of you when the prison doors closed. I mean,
(20:41):
anchor people don't feel that. Journalists don't care. We felt
this huge weight lifted off our shoulders and a huge
sense of relief.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
You know, it's interesting. I'm listening to you give that
moment by moment feeling, and that's incredible because my memory
the day he was caught is just trying to get
stuff on the air. And all I remember is all
I could think about was Okay, we've got to get
this bite in, We've got to get this story in,
and so on and so forth. I don't remember my
(21:14):
feelings that day. I don't, I don't not at all.
I remember the week before he was caught, the week
before they finally took him to prison, that I went
over to the El Dorado prison and did a story
on the cell. I went inside his cell where he
would be kept, and I remember, you know, when that
(21:35):
door slams on that cell, it is terrifying for me
because I can't be in an enclosed place. It would
drive me crazy. And when the door slams on that cell,
that scared me more than anything, because I couldn't imagine
spending the rest of my life in this very small area.
(21:59):
But on the day, I remember all of the coverage
of it, but I have no recollection of how I felt.
I just nothing there.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Not only did I feel that way the day he
went to prison, but the day he was arrested, I
was at the mall because it was in the morning
before we went to work at two o'clock and the
boss called and said, you got to get into work
right away. I said, why, We're almost positive BTK was caught.
(22:29):
I've never done this on a story. I mean stories
or stories. You know, we're immune to this kind of thing.
I was standing in the middle of the mall. The
mall started going round and round and round, and I thought,
oh my god, I'm going to faint. I'm going to faint.
And I started crying and I sat down and put
(22:51):
my head between my legs. That was over a news story.
We've never done that before, but it involved us so
much that we became part of the fear, part of
the story, part of the extreme relief when he was
(23:11):
finally caught.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
The moment for me was sitting in the courtroom when
the judge asked him to go through his murders, and
it was as if it was a three ring circus.
He was in the center ring, the spotlight was on him,
and he was the star, and he went through each
(23:33):
murder in a way that you would talk about getting
bread at the bakery or picking up your laundry, devoid
of any emotion, just very factual. And I thought, how
can a man stand up there and it was televised
in front of everyone and go through those murders. And
(23:57):
he was proud of it. He was I don't want
to use the word happy about it. You could tell
that this was his moment in the sun. This was
his time in which everybody could see his work. And
I remember thinking, what kind of person could do that,
(24:17):
what kind of person could tell the most evil things
that humanity can do and be proud of it. He
was proud of it. He did it. It was his
moment in the sun.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Because you were in the courthouse and Jeff and I
were feeling on the anchor set sick to our stomach,
you had to have been even more sick to your
stomach sitting there in the courtroom watching him.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
It felt like it was not real that this is
a movie and this is the guy they hired to
be BTK because so far, so devoid of reality, because
human beings are not supposed to act like that. Human
beings are not supposed to crave killing, human beings are
(25:06):
not supposed to be proud of the fact that they
have snuffed ten lives, and for him to stand up
there in front of everyone and do that, it was
just kind of like a movie script, almost didn't seem real.
And then of course you brought back down to earth
and it is reel.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I also remember another feeling, and I don't know if
it's relevant or not, but I'd like to ask Larry
whether he felt the same way. I don't think you did,
because I don't think Jeff did either. But I kept
wanting to tell the judge, quit asking him questions, this
is exactly what he wants. Quit asking him details of
(25:47):
every single murder he's on stage. He's delighting in this.
And I kept wanting to say to the judge, just
let him plead guilty and go. But he had the
opportunity because the judge kept asking him question and then
there was this murder, and then there was this murder.
(26:08):
What about this murder? He stood up like he was
accepting an Academy award, answering the judge's questions about ten
different murders, and I kept wanting to tell the judge,
quit asking him, this is what he wants. He's delighting
in this. And he had already pled guilty.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Why do we need.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
To hear this?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
See this is a point when Susan and I probably disagree.
I was very happy that the judge went through and
had him describe each murder because I felt that there
are probably still people out there who would say, oh,
the media is pouring down negative things about this guy.
You know what could be so terrible about Dennis Raider?
(26:54):
But by taking him through murder by murder, and it
just gets grosser and grosser and more terrible as he
goes on, then you see what BTK was. Then you
see the man behind the three letters, and he becomes real,
and he becomes evil, and he would lose support, which
(27:15):
is what I was hoping would happen. But still today
I know that there are people who write, women who
write him in jail. I don't get that, never have
understood that. But I was just happy that judge went
through all of those things so there was no mistake
about what kind of human being this is and why
(27:35):
he deserved those the death penalty, which he did not
get because of Kansas laws. But I thought it was
a great moment. I just felt it was surreal.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Larry, can you tell us why you still communicate with Dennis.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
The reason I will occasionally write to BTK. We still
to this day do not know what caused BTK to
become a murderer. We just have no clue. And there
are a million teachers out there with kids in their classroom,
and they know something is wrong with a child, but
(28:12):
they don't know what to do, They don't know how
to do it. So the question becomes, how do we
identify these children who are going to grow up to
become a BTK. The first place that we would see
that would be in the classroom, and so we need
to find out what teachers can use to identify these kids.
And we still don't know. Dennis Raider told me that
(28:35):
he knew by the time he was in late grade
school and certainly by early junior high who he was
and what he was. That to me is terrifying because
I'm guessing that there are thousands of other little btks
out there being formulated right now. How do we find them,
(28:57):
how do we detect them, and then how do we
stop them? We still don't have those answers. And my
hope is that all of the forensic psychologists who the
FBI have employed and who others have employed. Can all
get together instead of writing their own books, you know,
from coast to coast, can all get together and say, Okay,
(29:17):
here's what caused this to happen. Here's what teachers in
the future and others and parents can look to to
see that their child is going to grow up and
be one horrible human being. But until we have those answers,
the BTK story will never be dead. Even if he
dies tomorrow, this story isn't done because we don't know
(29:40):
what caused him to become the murdering monster that he was.
We still don't know, and that's why I stay involved
in it because I want to know, and I want
to know for future generations.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I one hundred percent agree with Larry. I don't think
his death will do any good for closure for the families.
It won't do any good for closure for other people
who were affected by BTK. His death will mean almost
nothing to them because they don't want to have any
(30:13):
contact or anything to do with him. He's never really
shown any remorse or sorrow or any has come anywhere
near I made a mistake. He's admitted to Factor X,
and he said Factor X made me do it. But
(30:35):
he's never said I'm sorry, I let Factor X take over.
I'm sorry I did this, I'm sorry I did that.
I'm sorry. I'm a crazy person in my world. I
think he knows he's a crazy person. I think he knows.
He's never apologized for it. He's never apologized for the
(30:56):
lives he's changed. And so for that reason, I don't
think his death will do any good.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
In the letter that I just wrote to him, I
asked him how he felt today about what he did
as compared to two thousand and five, and the last
time we talked, he didn't refer to that. He didn't
answer that question. In this I said, recent stories in
the news indicate that some believe that you may be
responsible for two additional murders just asking questions like that.
(31:27):
And the reason I write to him is that I hope,
in a moment of sanity, he would write back to
me and say, oh, yeah, I did kill that person,
you know, back ten or fifteen years ago. But he
hasn't done it yet. As a newsperson, you keep asking
the question. And what we found is when you interview people,
(31:49):
you ask the question many different ways and you get
many different responses and you hope that the response would
come out all right, guys, you know, yeah, okay, I
did those others. He hasn't done that yet. What he
wrote back to me this time, there's no news value
in it. He said, I just want you to know
I forgive you. I forget how he worded it. I'm
(32:11):
trying to figure out what he's forgiving me for. He says,
it's been a few minutes since we last corresponded, as
I recall I recall you and others from KTV, How
can I forget you you? And then he says something
the media and I'm a man with extra which I
couldn't read. But all is forgiven. So I'm not sure
(32:33):
what he's forgiving me for. I did understand back in
two thousand and five he was unhappy with me because
in one story I referred to him as a monster
and he took offense at that. So I'm always anxious
to get a letter because you know, it may be
a key to a solution to a piece of information
that we don't have. And he said he in there
(32:55):
he was getting away from letter writing. I understand why
he's getting away from letter writing because it's very hard
to read his handwriting. Now they apparently have tablets, he
calls them. I'm assuming maybe it's a chromebook or maybe
an iPad. I don't know what he has. So now
he can text people, and he said he was also
(33:16):
receiving texts. Having Denis Raider being able to text is
a little bit terrifying. If you're sitting at the dinner
table with your family and you get a text and
it's Dennis Raider, B how do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Doesn't matter. He's in prison. He gets things like this.
Dennis Raider has access to a tablet, to a television,
to all these things, and it's not fair. I have
the feeling he wants publicity.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Now, Well, what I understand is everybody in the prison
has access to this and they only get it if
they're good. Now, if they violate prison rules or regulations,
then television has taken away, the tablets are taken away.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Why would he violate any rules. He wants his tablet,
he wants his television.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
He has in the past. Yeah, he's bad.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
He has.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
I don't know what he's done, but he's been bad
in the past and they have taken things away from him.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Susan in this most recent letter, it says that you
were never a project? How does that make you feel?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Wish I would have known that twenty years ago. Wish
I would have known it twenty years ago. It would
have saved me a lot of stress, a lot of fear,
a lot of angst. But hearing that I wasn't a
project now, First of all, how do you believe a
murders who knows when he's lying and when he's not lying.
(34:51):
But hearing it now it makes no difference whatsoever. It's
almost like, how dare him even say my name nothing?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Now?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
You're nothing now? You are nothing then, and you're even
less than nothing now. This is the first time I've
realized that we have never had these conversations about BTK,
and that I've never really cried in front of Larry
about BTK.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
It's interesting when I'm sitting across from Susan now, I
am fascinated with her comments because it's the first time
I've heard many of these things, and so we're sort
of reliving it again.
Hi, guys, come on in Hio. Where are you?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm good, Larry, Little Susie Peters, how Larry John Sorry,
we have to hug. Yeah. Good Singulary, Good, Singulary. Welcome
to a special bonus episode of Monster BTK. This is
a sit down interview I did with my former k
TV colleague Larry Hadiberg last summer. I caught up with
(00:30):
Larry at his home in Wichitah. He and I reflect
on our work together covering the BTK story all these
years later.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
So what does it feel like for both you to
have such a major role in the BTK story.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We felt like we needed to be part of the
process of catching him, and we knew every time we
would say something on TV or we would do a story,
which was ever all day, but we knew every time
we would react to his communications was the chance for
him to communicate again. And all we were trying to
(01:09):
do is the media, in addition to informing the public,
was to try and get communication out of him. And
I know there was one instance with you, Larry, where
you said something directly to him on the air.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yes, I decided that we should communicate with him because
my feeling was if he's communicating with us, He's not
killing So I went on the air and said BTK
if you're listening, and then gave a little spiel about that,
indicating that the PD wanted to keep the communication going,
(01:46):
and then we got some feedback. I do remember one
of the postcards that we got talked about you and
Jeff having a cold on the air, and that was
I think after I had gone on the air and
asked for the communications to continue.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
BTK from the get go made the media and in
particular CAKETV, part.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Of the story, and I think for a journalist that's
a terrible place to be. Is part of the story,
but there was no way to get out of it
because he enjoyed communicating with Cake TV. CAKETV was his
favorite station. He had watched it since he was a child.
He had been out there when we brought in Renten
ten one time, when ABC came out. He had been
(02:32):
out there for other children's shows. So he was very
much a part of the Cake family. He knew all
of us. He watched it every night. He still watches
it to this day, and it's a very odd feeling
to go to work every day and know that you
have to feed the national media, you have to feed
(02:53):
the local media, because many times Susan and I would
either be on a morning show or an evening show
like Larry King Live back in the day, and you're
serving two masters. And in journalism there is no book
written about how you do this. You know, we were
writing the book on how you cover BTK when you
(03:17):
are part of the story, and that was very difficult
for me.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I don't know about you, but it made me feel
a little bit gratified that we had a small part
in finally getting the sky well.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I think if it wasn't for the media, the communications
might have stopped. The very difficult part for me was
working with the police department. They did a great job
over the thirty years. It was a tough case. But
when we would get a postcard, obviously the police department
would want a copy of that postcard. Well, we would
(03:54):
give them the original and we would have a copy.
But it became many times a little difficult because the
police department, i think, sometimes resented us because we were
part of the story and they didn't want the media
to be part of the story. We couldn't help it,
we were, and so here we are trying to do
our job while the police department is trying to do theirs.
(04:17):
I had one thing happen in which we got a
postcard that indicated there was a package or another message
at one of the It was like a low's I
forget what It wasan home depot, that's right. So I
went out to Home Depot and we'd call the detectives
to come out to the station to get it. I
(04:39):
arrived there before they did. I went in talked to
the manager. I said, did you get a package?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
No?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Did you get a message from anyone that was unusual?
And I never used the term BTK? And he said no.
I said, okay. Later on in that day I get
a call from the district attorney indicating that they would
like to see me, the general man, manager, the news director,
and our attorney in her office eight am the next morning.
(05:05):
And when we got to her office, she said, you
arrived before the detectives And I said, well, that's a
matter of physics. Our station is just closer. She said,
but you got there ahead of them, and I said,
I walked in to home Depot like any other customer
would do. I asked a couple of questions. He didn't
(05:25):
have any answers. I left, and she said, we're considering
charging you with a felony interfering with a federal investigation.
And I said, how did I interfere? Tell me how
I interfered? I just walked in the store, asked the
manager a couple of questions, and left. And there wasn't
a great answer for that, and our attorney was already
(05:46):
going crazy. But I think what was happening was the
police department was feeling pressure from the media and didn't
like someone, as it appeared, showing up and interfering with
their investigation. So I took that as a warnt. But
that's the only time that I ever got crossways with them.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Like you say, our goal was the same, but we
had two goals, and that was informing the public and
catching BTK. Their only mission was to catch BTK, So
sometimes it crossed ways. And sometimes the investigators totally loved
us and used us, which we had no problem with.
(06:28):
But sometimes we crossed the line because we had another job.
And there were several times when I was am I
walking the line all right, and police would say no,
in so many words, you're not walking the line. All right,
go back to your journalism. And so it was a
very very tough thing. There was one time when I
(06:50):
called Detective John Spear during the ten o'clock news because
the guy who they thought was BTK that they arrested,
and said, who is this guy that you arrested? DA.
Of course he couldn't tell me, And the next day
I got a call from him and he said, don't
ever call me direct again. That kind of thing. So
(07:13):
the problem was we wanted to inform the public and
still get the scoop, so to speak. We never wanted
to ruin any investigation. We did follow the police department's
rules as much as we could because we wanted to
(07:33):
catch him as much as they did, because we were
in fear for our lives.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And a really strange thing was the day that I
had two detectives who I knew, both of them show
up in the front lobby of KKETV. They said, Larry,
is there someone where we can talk private? So I
took him up into the conference room and they said, Larry,
we need your DNA and I said why do you
need my DNA? And he says, well, we're getting tips
(08:02):
to the BTK hotline. That you're BTK. And I said,
why are they saying I'm BTK? And they said, well,
when you talk about it on television, you seem to
know a lot about it. You've been to the crime scenes,
you've followed it since nineteen seventy four, and what we're
trying to do is to rule you out. And I said, okay,
(08:22):
let's do it. So they swabbed me and I said,
how will I know for the results? And they said, well,
if you don't see a swat team coming into Cake,
you'll know that you passed. I said, okay.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
They swabbed some two hundred people. I knew two or
three people were swabed. Not only Larry Hadiberg, the godfather
of my second child, was swabbed as well, because he
went to Wichita State the same time as BTK. That's
what was so weird about all this. We knew BTK
(09:02):
was the guy next door. What if he really was
the guy next door? What if he really was Yeah,
what if he really was the godfather of my child?
You know? What if he really was an anchor person?
I mean, nobody knew at that particular point in time.
(09:24):
That was also frightening. Of course, I knew it wasn't Larry.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
But thank you. But at the time, we're not talking
about each other's feelings. We're just trying to survive the
day to get the story on the air. She's working
her sources, I'm working my sources. I remember one day
we showed up at btk's attorney's office together.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
At the same time.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I didn't know she was going to be there. She
didn't know I was going to be there, you know.
So we're all trying to do our job, but we're
not talking to each other about feelings. What we're talking
about is trying to get the story and trying to
inform the public. And that's what is so weird. Just
us talking about it now is probably the first time
we have ever talked about feelings about it, because the
(10:14):
rest of the time it was just the job. We're
doing the job and we're trying to inform the public
to the best way that we can. And Susan and
I weren't working together. She was working on her stories.
I was working on my stories. But in reality, we
were working together because of this thing of trying to
inform the public. So it was a different time.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Larry's one hundred percent right. We didn't talk about our feelings.
Larry had no idea how scared I was. No one
had any idea how scared I was. We didn't talk
about things like that. Larry and I never talked about
her anyone in the newsroom. I'm afraid we hate this guy.
(10:58):
No feelings were talked about at all.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Do you remember one night when we were walking out
of Cake. It was quarter eleven or so, and we
get just past the concrete stepping into the thing, and
a bicyclist is down at the end of our driveway
(11:23):
and he comes at us seemed like one hundred miles
an hour, and I thought we're in trouble. Thought I
didn't know who that guy was. And he's coming at
us a one hundred miles an hour on that bicycle
pulls up in front of us, and I thought we're
going to shot stab something here something. And he was
just a viewer. But I felt fair at that point,
(11:45):
and I'm sure you did.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I was glad you were with me. I had tremendous fear.
BTK knew where we were every single day at ten
o'clock and ten thirty and six o'clock and six thirty
after we got the postcard that said, I hope Susan's
and Jeff's cold gets better. From that day on, I
(12:07):
had a reporter or a photographer follow me all the
way home because he knows where we are. He was
watching us every night.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
In this case, I mean, we really care about each other,
and we've anchored together and done so many projects over
the course of time that I think we really understand
each other. And as I say, we don't agree on everything,
but that's okay. You know, that's okay. We are completely
(12:37):
and totally different personalities, but Susan is the finest co
anchor slash anchor who I've ever worked with in my career,
and we understood each other. We don't always agree on everything,
but I love her to death and always will because
(12:57):
she is the most professional anchor that I have ever
had the opportunity to be with. And when we were
anchoring together, if I got into trouble, she could take over,
and she knew instantly if she got into trouble, I
took over and we saved each other that way, and
we did that without talking. We just instinctively could respond
(13:18):
to each other's feelings, and that's rare that is rare
in television. I know in many stations the co ankers
don't like each other. You know that happens a lot.
I am so thankful that during the BTK years she
was by my side. It made a huge difference, huge difference.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
It made a huge difference that he was by my side.
Larry was very protective of me when he walked me
out to my car. I knew BTK would never harm
Larry had to work. They had like a little relationship
from the seventies. I knew BTK would never harmle Larry Howdeberg.
(14:00):
So I felt very safe with Larry walking me out
to the car because I knew BTK would never do
anything to Larry.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
I didn't know that, Yeah, no, I didn't know that.
And we knew that he basically attacked mostly women, with
exception of the Atero family. We didn't know that. I
just knew that this was an odd time in my
journalism history, and the Susan and I were in it together,
(14:31):
and Jeff and several of the other reporters who worked
very hard on this, and we had to cover each
other's butts in this thing because we didn't know where
it was going. We didn't know how it was going
to end. And you know, when we do interviews like this,
we all have the benefit of hindsight. But when you're
living with the BTK story before he's caught, you have
(14:53):
no idea who this guy is, You have no idea
where the story's going, you have no idea of the outcome.
So it's a really different time. And to be able
to talk about it in hindsight is one thing, but
when you're living it, as I say, Sudan and I
never had these conversations. We were just scrambling to get
the story on the air in hopes to serve the
(15:14):
viewer every night.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
This is the first time I've realized that. I think
it says that we had to put all of our
feelings aside, as Larry said, all of our fears, all
of our sadness, all of our frustration, all of our anger,
like everybody had, we had to put all that aside
(15:39):
and do our job. It was really good with Larry
and I because Larry chased the whole BTK angle, the
whole the criminal, and I chased the victim angle, and
so we were all working on different things. Larry was
working on reaction from BTK, and I was working on
(16:05):
let's find these victims' families and tell the real story
of these victims that are still out there. And so yeah,
we each had our own little thing that we were
working on and that made it successful.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And that was Susan's specialty working with those family members,
and she did an absolute great job with it and
really got some incredible insight from the family members. And
I think it's important to remember the family because you know,
what happened to us is nothing. What happened to the
(16:43):
families is everything. Those families' lives have been changed forever
in so many difficult and unusual ways that we'll never
know about. But it's the families who bear the ultimate
suffering of what bt did. And you know, we concentrate
on BTK because A, he's still alive, b he's still
(17:05):
being BTK. But the families are basically sitting all across
the city, all across the state, and in silence because
they don't want to think about it. They don't want
to relive the moments, and I'm guessing that they would
not want to do this to have their comments on
(17:26):
the air, so they live in silence. And I think
that burden for me would really be overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
The relationship between Larry and I during that whole year,
it was something very special. We became very very good
friends during that year and very protective of each other.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Can we get into the capture of Dennis Raider.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I'll never forget it.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Oh, go ahead, be my guess.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Of course, all the TV stations were live covering every
single millisecond of his way to prison. He leaves downtown Wichita.
We have a helicopter in the sky following the caravan
to Eldorado Prison, which is about thirty miles away. The
(18:22):
helicopters in the sky. I remember following the car. I
remember watching the car. I remember the car pulling up
to the Eldorado Prison doors. I remember them getting Dennis
Raider out in his jumpsuit, foot ankle cuffs and handcuffs,
(18:45):
and then walking him into that prison. I remember the
live shot of the prison door shutting. I have never
been so relieved, so for lack of a better word,
emotionally spent. I remember I started to cry, thinking to myself,
(19:10):
the nightmare is over for Wichita. The nightmare is finally over,
not only for us, for Larry and I and other
members of the media, because it was a nightmare for
us as well, but for all of Wichita, the nightmare
was over. I started crying, and one other thing that
(19:35):
struck me from that. Of course, that day we led
with his incarceration forever and ever. All those stories aired
that day, the five, six, and ten o'clock news, and
all that I remember. The next day and the day
after and the day after, we didn't mention his name,
(19:56):
and it was so refreshing not to have his name
mentioned on our newscast. And I'm sure it's what he
wanted forever and ever and ever. I don't know if
we mentioned his name for a couple months after that,
and that's what was so refreshing. I don't know how
(20:19):
Larry felt, but when the prison doors closed, I could
physically feel this huge weight lifted from my shoulders. Mind you,
we've covered a zillion trials, a zillion homicide cases, a
zillion never one like this where you'd feel this weight
lifted off of you when the prison doors closed. I mean,
(20:41):
anchor people don't feel that. Journalists don't care. We felt
this huge weight lifted off our shoulders and a huge
sense of relief.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
You know, it's interesting. I'm listening to you give that
moment by moment feeling, and that's incredible because my memory
the day he was caught is just trying to get
stuff on the air. And all I remember is all
I could think about was Okay, we've got to get
this bite in, We've got to get this story in,
and so on and so forth. I don't remember my
(21:14):
feelings that day. I don't, I don't not at all.
I remember the week before he was caught, the week
before they finally took him to prison, that I went
over to the El Dorado prison and did a story
on the cell. I went inside his cell where he
would be kept, and I remember, you know, when that
(21:35):
door slams on that cell, it is terrifying for me
because I can't be in an enclosed place. It would
drive me crazy. And when the door slams on that cell,
that scared me more than anything, because I couldn't imagine
spending the rest of my life in this very small area.
(21:59):
But on the day, I remember all of the coverage
of it, but I have no recollection of how I felt.
I just nothing there.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Not only did I feel that way the day he
went to prison, but the day he was arrested, I
was at the mall because it was in the morning
before we went to work at two o'clock and the
boss called and said, you got to get into work
right away. I said, why, We're almost positive BTK was caught.
(22:29):
I've never done this on a story. I mean stories
or stories. You know, we're immune to this kind of thing.
I was standing in the middle of the mall. The
mall started going round and round and round, and I thought,
oh my god, I'm going to faint. I'm going to faint.
And I started crying and I sat down and put
(22:51):
my head between my legs. That was over a news story.
We've never done that before, but it involved us so
much that we became part of the fear, part of
the story, part of the extreme relief when he was
(23:11):
finally caught.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
The moment for me was sitting in the courtroom when
the judge asked him to go through his murders, and
it was as if it was a three ring circus.
He was in the center ring, the spotlight was on him,
and he was the star, and he went through each
(23:33):
murder in a way that you would talk about getting
bread at the bakery or picking up your laundry, devoid
of any emotion, just very factual. And I thought, how
can a man stand up there and it was televised
in front of everyone and go through those murders. And
(23:57):
he was proud of it. He was I don't want
to use the word happy about it. You could tell
that this was his moment in the sun. This was
his time in which everybody could see his work. And
I remember thinking, what kind of person could do that,
(24:17):
what kind of person could tell the most evil things
that humanity can do and be proud of it. He
was proud of it. He did it. It was his
moment in the sun.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Because you were in the courthouse and Jeff and I
were feeling on the anchor set sick to our stomach,
you had to have been even more sick to your
stomach sitting there in the courtroom watching him.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
It felt like it was not real that this is
a movie and this is the guy they hired to
be BTK because so far, so devoid of reality, because
human beings are not supposed to act like that. Human
beings are not supposed to crave killing, human beings are
(25:06):
not supposed to be proud of the fact that they
have snuffed ten lives, and for him to stand up
there in front of everyone and do that, it was
just kind of like a movie script, almost didn't seem real.
And then of course you brought back down to earth
and it is reel.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I also remember another feeling, and I don't know if
it's relevant or not, but I'd like to ask Larry
whether he felt the same way. I don't think you did,
because I don't think Jeff did either. But I kept
wanting to tell the judge, quit asking him questions, this
is exactly what he wants. Quit asking him details of
(25:47):
every single murder he's on stage. He's delighting in this.
And I kept wanting to say to the judge, just
let him plead guilty and go. But he had the
opportunity because the judge kept asking him question and then
there was this murder, and then there was this murder.
(26:08):
What about this murder? He stood up like he was
accepting an Academy award, answering the judge's questions about ten
different murders, and I kept wanting to tell the judge,
quit asking him, this is what he wants. He's delighting
in this. And he had already pled guilty.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Why do we need.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
To hear this?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
See this is a point when Susan and I probably disagree.
I was very happy that the judge went through and
had him describe each murder because I felt that there
are probably still people out there who would say, oh,
the media is pouring down negative things about this guy.
You know what could be so terrible about Dennis Raider?
(26:54):
But by taking him through murder by murder, and it
just gets grosser and grosser and more terrible as he
goes on, then you see what BTK was. Then you
see the man behind the three letters, and he becomes real,
and he becomes evil, and he would lose support, which
(27:15):
is what I was hoping would happen. But still today
I know that there are people who write, women who
write him in jail. I don't get that, never have
understood that. But I was just happy that judge went
through all of those things so there was no mistake
about what kind of human being this is and why
(27:35):
he deserved those the death penalty, which he did not
get because of Kansas laws. But I thought it was
a great moment. I just felt it was surreal.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Larry, can you tell us why you still communicate with Dennis.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
The reason I will occasionally write to BTK. We still
to this day do not know what caused BTK to
become a murderer. We just have no clue. And there
are a million teachers out there with kids in their classroom,
and they know something is wrong with a child, but
(28:12):
they don't know what to do, They don't know how
to do it. So the question becomes, how do we
identify these children who are going to grow up to
become a BTK. The first place that we would see
that would be in the classroom, and so we need
to find out what teachers can use to identify these kids.
And we still don't know. Dennis Raider told me that
(28:35):
he knew by the time he was in late grade
school and certainly by early junior high who he was
and what he was. That to me is terrifying because
I'm guessing that there are thousands of other little btks
out there being formulated right now. How do we find them,
(28:57):
how do we detect them, and then how do we
stop them? We still don't have those answers. And my
hope is that all of the forensic psychologists who the
FBI have employed and who others have employed. Can all
get together instead of writing their own books, you know,
from coast to coast, can all get together and say, Okay,
(29:17):
here's what caused this to happen. Here's what teachers in
the future and others and parents can look to to
see that their child is going to grow up and
be one horrible human being. But until we have those answers,
the BTK story will never be dead. Even if he
dies tomorrow, this story isn't done because we don't know
(29:40):
what caused him to become the murdering monster that he was.
We still don't know, and that's why I stay involved
in it because I want to know, and I want
to know for future generations.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I one hundred percent agree with Larry. I don't think
his death will do any good for closure for the families.
It won't do any good for closure for other people
who were affected by BTK. His death will mean almost
nothing to them because they don't want to have any
(30:13):
contact or anything to do with him. He's never really
shown any remorse or sorrow or any has come anywhere
near I made a mistake. He's admitted to Factor X,
and he said Factor X made me do it. But
(30:35):
he's never said I'm sorry, I let Factor X take over.
I'm sorry I did this, I'm sorry I did that.
I'm sorry. I'm a crazy person in my world. I
think he knows he's a crazy person. I think he knows.
He's never apologized for it. He's never apologized for the
(30:56):
lives he's changed. And so for that reason, I don't
think his death will do any good.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
In the letter that I just wrote to him, I
asked him how he felt today about what he did
as compared to two thousand and five, and the last
time we talked, he didn't refer to that. He didn't
answer that question. In this I said, recent stories in
the news indicate that some believe that you may be
responsible for two additional murders just asking questions like that.
(31:27):
And the reason I write to him is that I hope,
in a moment of sanity, he would write back to
me and say, oh, yeah, I did kill that person,
you know, back ten or fifteen years ago. But he
hasn't done it yet. As a newsperson, you keep asking
the question. And what we found is when you interview people,
(31:49):
you ask the question many different ways and you get
many different responses and you hope that the response would
come out all right, guys, you know, yeah, okay, I
did those others. He hasn't done that yet. What he
wrote back to me this time, there's no news value
in it. He said, I just want you to know
I forgive you. I forget how he worded it. I'm
(32:11):
trying to figure out what he's forgiving me for. He says,
it's been a few minutes since we last corresponded, as
I recall I recall you and others from KTV, How
can I forget you you? And then he says something
the media and I'm a man with extra which I
couldn't read. But all is forgiven. So I'm not sure
(32:33):
what he's forgiving me for. I did understand back in
two thousand and five he was unhappy with me because
in one story I referred to him as a monster
and he took offense at that. So I'm always anxious
to get a letter because you know, it may be
a key to a solution to a piece of information
that we don't have. And he said he in there
(32:55):
he was getting away from letter writing. I understand why
he's getting away from letter writing because it's very hard
to read his handwriting. Now they apparently have tablets, he
calls them. I'm assuming maybe it's a chromebook or maybe
an iPad. I don't know what he has. So now
he can text people, and he said he was also
(33:16):
receiving texts. Having Denis Raider being able to text is
a little bit terrifying. If you're sitting at the dinner
table with your family and you get a text and
it's Dennis Raider, B how do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Doesn't matter. He's in prison. He gets things like this.
Dennis Raider has access to a tablet, to a television,
to all these things, and it's not fair. I have
the feeling he wants publicity.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Now, Well, what I understand is everybody in the prison
has access to this and they only get it if
they're good. Now, if they violate prison rules or regulations,
then television has taken away, the tablets are taken away.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Why would he violate any rules. He wants his tablet,
he wants his television.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
He has in the past. Yeah, he's bad.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
He has.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
I don't know what he's done, but he's been bad
in the past and they have taken things away from him.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Susan in this most recent letter, it says that you
were never a project? How does that make you feel?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Wish I would have known that twenty years ago. Wish
I would have known it twenty years ago. It would
have saved me a lot of stress, a lot of fear,
a lot of angst. But hearing that I wasn't a
project now, First of all, how do you believe a
murders who knows when he's lying and when he's not lying.
(34:51):
But hearing it now it makes no difference whatsoever. It's
almost like, how dare him even say my name nothing?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Now?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
You're nothing now? You are nothing then, and you're even
less than nothing now. This is the first time I've
realized that we have never had these conversations about BTK,
and that I've never really cried in front of Larry
about BTK.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
It's interesting when I'm sitting across from Susan now, I
am fascinated with her comments because it's the first time
I've heard many of these things, and so we're sort
of reliving it again.
Host
Susan Peters
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