May 9, 2024 • 39 mins
“I walked out of the play.” Fresh off winning a Student Academy Award, Colombian filmmaker Patricia Cardoso was looking for her next film project. After some initial hesitation, she decided to adapt the much-beloved (but somewhat problematic) stage play Real Women Have Curves into what would become a major Sundance sensation. We sat down with Patricia to talk about the changes from stage to screen, discovering a young America Ferrera, bringing authenticity to the film, and why the doors of Hollywood stayed closed to her after this smash success.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
How do you then get connected to real women.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Well, you know, our producer had the play and he
contact me and he said, you know, I'm thinking of
adapting this into a movie, and it was being a
stage in Los Angeles. I went to see the play,
but I did like the staging because it was when
the women take off their clothes.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh, the actors have very and flattering underware, like really exaggerated,
so people like the audience was laughing at them, not
with them, and that's what's horrible. So I walk out
of the play.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
You out of real women of girls? Yes, oh my god.
Welcome to more than a movie, a podcast that gives
you a behind the scenes look at your favorite movies.
I'm your host, Alex Fumero. Last season, we did a
deep dive on American met This season, I'll focus on
(00:53):
a different movie. Each episode feature interviews with the biggest actors, directors, writers,
and producers behind them and tap into the history of
Latinos in film. In this episode, we are exploring the
two thousand and two classic Real Women Have Curves. Real
Women Have Curves is the coming of age story of
(01:14):
a first generation Mexican American girl played by America Ferrera,
who would go on to star in shows like Ugly
Betty Superstore and most recently in The Barbie Movie, for
which she was nominated for an Academy Award. At the time,
America was only seventeen years old, but would win an
Independent Spirit Award and a Special Jury Prize for Acting
from the Sundance Film Festival for her role as Anna Garcia,
(01:36):
an ambitious teenager growing up in Los Angeles who has
dreams of going to an Ivy League school across the country.
She regularly challenges the norms and expectations of her family,
especially her mother, played by the legendary and late Lupeon Tiverros,
who you might know as Jolanda Saldivar in the movie Selina,
but I prefer to remember for her role as Rosalita
(01:59):
in The Goonies. Girls nowadays think they know so much.
That's why they end up bansona no mom.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
The reason they end up pregnate is because they don't
know how to use contraceptives.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Your husband's not gonna like it known so much. Why
is a woman's virginity the only thing that matters? A
woman has thoughts, ideas a mind of her own.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
The woman who cast a precocious Ferrara in the lead role,
who discovered her is less known, but perhaps no less influential.
Patricia Cardozo is one of only a handful of Latinas
ever to direct a studio movie, and she's inspired scores
of young Latinas to try and flip those statistics on
their head. I asked Cardozo on the show to talk
(02:40):
both about what she went through to make Real Women
Have Curves and how she's confronted the challenges of being
a Latina director in Hollywood. I'm here with acclaimed director
of the now legendary movie Real Women Have Curves, Patrica Cardoso. Patricia,
thank you so much for being here on more than
a movie.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Thank you for having me here.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I obviously want to talk about the making of that
particular film and its role in the canon or the
it's placed in Latino film history, but I did want
to start earlier. You know, I've heard you talk about
loving storytelling from a very young age and loving to
tell stories, and I think it's probably a prerequisite for
(03:24):
all of us who make movies that were obsessed with storytelling,
or otherwise we wouldn't do something so difficult. But I wonder
could you talk a little bit about why you love
to tell stories, why you loved to tell stories at
that age.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
You know, that's a good question because I just remember,
since I have memory since before I learned how to
read and write, I like telling the stories, and I
think I like to entertain people. You know, it just
sounds weird to me because I think that I come
across as a very serious person and not as an entertainer.
But I guess I'm an entertainer. You know, I like
to tell interesting stories. But I also, I think, is
(04:01):
why kind of to process my experiences, because I always
was very attracted to my personal experiences retold rearranging the facts,
but also good experiences of people that I knew close
to me, and also some rearrangement of the order of
the facts or some exaggeration to make it more entertaining.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Right, and your first I'm dropping ahead a bit, but
your first kind of like short film that you made
was precisely that, Right, You sort of drew from some
real life experiences, real people that you knew. I wonder
if you could talk about The water Carrier a little.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, The water Curriage was a story about a blind
mine in his eighties, set in the nineteen twenties in
a small village in Colombia, who recorded his side after
being blind for fifty years. And it was based on
a true story because my grandfather was one of the
first doctors in Colombia to do catark inless operations nineteen
twenty six and he did it in The Man who
(04:56):
Brought Water to His House. You know, he lived in
a small villa. Legend there was no running water. And
that movie is very grounded too, you know. Just I
come from an anthropology background, That's what I studied undergrad,
and I'm always like looking to reflect reality as real
as possible when I love like the popular culture in Colombia,
in everywhere Latin America, and I think that's what I
(05:19):
also like so much Carsia America because he had that
emphasis on popular culture and regular people, not in the
fancy people. And that movie, you know, told that story.
That was my physicism for UCLA. So it was like
a one hour film and it won still an Academy Award,
to the g Awards, it won a lot of awards,
and it was still a very good movie. And that's
(05:39):
the movie that got me the job to direct Real
Women Have Curves.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Real Women Have Curves started initially as a stage play
right in the early nineteen nineties, written by one of
the co writers of the screenplay, Jssefina Lopez. Yes, tell
me about the first time you came into contact with
the stage play Real Women Have Curves.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
That was like three years before I was approached by you, HBO,
and that was a producer. I had already done my thesis.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
From Yeah, how many years in school are you at
this point?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I'm only like two years after.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
You have a manager, You have an agent.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
No, I have a back pocket or agent.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Do you know what that is? In a back pocket agent?
And for people who don't know, is like basically somebody
hip pocket They also call it, right, It's like if
there's a thing, I'll call you, but you're not really
my client.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Is that exactly? Yeah? If someone called the agency and
ask who represents Patria Cardolo, they say no one. Yeah,
but then if I get a job, he gets ten percent.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Right, So basically, because this guy was hip pocketing you,
they just couldn't find a director. Yes, how do you
then get connected to real women?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Well, you know, a producer had to play. But this
is a different producer than the one who actually made it,
and he contact me. He said, you know, I'm thinking
of adapting this into a movie. Would you be interested
in reading the play. I write the play and I
loved it, and they say yes, and it was being
a stage Los Angeles. I went to see the play,
but I didn't like the staging because it was when
(07:05):
the women take off their clothes. All the actors have
very unflattering underware, like really exaggerated, so people like the
audience was laughing at them, not with them, and that's
what's horrible. So I walk out of the play Girls,
Yes after that scene. Yeah, But I had read the
(07:25):
play and I had loved the play. I knew it
was the staging. It was the way that there was
being portrayed, right.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
They were the butt of the joke instead of it
being a moment where you feel sort of empowered.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And that's why when I finally was directing the movie,
I knew that that scene was going to be so
crucial because I wanted to show the women to come
across as beautiful and show them with respect.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
You want to see celling like, all right, here we go,
this is selling, but you don't understand, ladies, let me
show you stresh Mark.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
From this two West.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Know how beautiful we are.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
To be rid of all these Just let it all
hang out, okay, ladies?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Who cares what we look like when no one's watching us.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I always think my view of the world, it has
a very wide angle for what is beautiful. You know,
everything is beautiful basically, and the culture Sonaro. So yeah,
I walk out of that play. I haven't told Seina
that story, but I did. But then that producer didn't
really didn't move forward. But the only thing that I
(08:45):
realized is that because I loved the play so much,
I realized that it was the same writer of another
play I had seen like two years before, called Simply Media,
which I had absolutely loved, and I felt it was
like this play an our play she had written. I
love her boys, because she's just very grounded, but it
has humor, but it's very real.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And probably one of the few playwrights. I mean, I
don't know about that other play, but it's like, who's
writing these plays at that time?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
There were so few plays written about the female experience,
the female Latina experience, right, So did you feel a
kinship with her? In that story.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Oh my god, yeah, I know. Just I felt that
even though our loves are completely different, I feel like
we have such a similar sensibility to tell the story.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, and so you walk out of that play, which
was if you know, will maybe find out about when
she hears this podcast? But then how does it come
back around?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Then I get a call from a producer in New
York that I've known for many years, and he tells me, well,
you know, HB always making a movie based in display
real women have curves, and they're looking for directors, Intervinian directors.
So I gave your name. So I got a call
from the producer, and then I was one of the
many directors of the interview. But now there was the
first draft of the play written, so I wanted the
(09:59):
screenplay and play. Yes, so I went to lumber. I
went to HBO to meet with Mot Nadler, who was
the executive in charge of the project, and to kind
of pitch my take, you know, which now is like
you have look books and all these things. Rember carrying
these huge bags with books, and I remember the City
Player to play the music, and I played the music
(10:19):
that I was on the City Player a tiny city player.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
What's that for someone who doesn't know what it's like
to pitch a take?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Right?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
What does that mean? What did that look like? How
did you pitch the take? I mean, you clearly had
a scorer with you, but aside from the score, how
did you do it?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah? You know it takes How if I get the job,
how would I direct the movie? Because the same screenplay
by different people could be completely different. So it's like,
what to me is the heart of the story, which
to me was the mother daughter relationship. It was not
as much going to college or not that was like
a really good structure, But to me, the heart was
the mother daughter relationship and how the mother was imposing
(10:58):
in the daughter a vision of what it should be
as a woman, and how the daughter like says, no,
this is not what I'm gonna do. But you know,
of course it takes her and and a have to
do that.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, well that's a good movie, right if it happened
in the first ten minutes, we'd be walking out. Yes,
But do you remember what kind of questions you got
from the executives that from the producers when you were
pitching your take?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You know, I remember a comment not that they but
later that the mod Nanda told me, the executive he
told me, the reason what I hire you is because
I had seen your previous movie, The Water Carrier, and
the respect you had for the characters. And that's one
of the best compliments I've ever gotten in my life
as a director.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right, because it's the opposite of that production you saw,
right it Rather than treat them as the bet of
the joke, you took them very seriously. And yet the
movie's still funny, right, Like it's it's yes, of course humor.
But America's character, even in doubting her conflict with her mother,
she's so sure of herself. She's certainly more confident than
a lot of seventeen year old girls.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
She's more confident than me. Now, I love that character
because I always thought this is who my wish I
was when I was seventeen.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
That's so interesting, because you do. I was going to
ask you you you do come off as very confident though,
I mean, even the way you describe you're like, yeah,
So I just I made a short film and it
won an Oscar and then I went in and pitched
my take to these producers, Like at any point in
this processor, you going, I shouldn't be here, like no
imposter syndrome going through your mind like happens with a
(12:28):
lot of us. Is there any self doubt? You know?
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Oh my god?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You know people give me that feedback that I project
and I'm very confident too, yeah, and I am like, no,
just the opposite that I'm so lack of confidence, you know,
and only like I think when I'm teaching, I'm so
open about it and people are always like amazed.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yes, I don't have time either, Patricia Cardoso, but I
do need to let these ads take up some real
estate or iHeartMedia is going to cancel my show. We'll
be right now. Welcome back to More Than a Movie.
(13:13):
I'm America Fromara and I'm talking to the director of
Real Women Have Curves, Patricia Cardozo, about how she convinced
the executives at HBO to let her direct a movie.
So the movie was already set up essentially because it
was an HBO original film, so you really just had
to sell them on you. And then how do you
(13:35):
I've heard you talk about how challenging the casting process was,
especially when it came to America, who was unknown at
the time. I think she'd done one Disney movie. In fact,
she was at theater camp or something when she filmed
the audition for real women. How do you convince people
who have more experience than you, people who have more
(13:56):
power than you in the room. How do you convince
them to do your bidding right? How do you convinced
them to cast the actress that you that you want,
that you feel is necessary to tell the story the
way you want to.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
You know, I think that my secret weapon is perseverance.
I just persist and perceived and persist.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
It took a long time to find an actor that
could play the role because by definition, you know, first
like most movies at the time were male actors. You know,
to have just a female lead, it was very initial, right,
And then to have a female lead that is latina,
I saw even more n usual. And then to have
a female lead that is latina and is a little overweight,
(14:37):
that's just like impossible, you know. So when we were
doing the casting, all the actors were so thin, and
we did open called casting and there are all these
actors in line, and they were so thin, and they
kept explaining to me that they didn't feel think that
they felt they were very overweight.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
That's fascinating. So from a Hollywood perspective, they're like, I'm
curvy and you're looking at them and going love, You're not.
You're within actress.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yes, but that's how we perceive ourselves, you know, we
have that.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
It's a microcosm of the film itself sort of playing
out in your casting process. And so I'm not asking
you to name names, by the way, but like when
you're running into resistance for an actress like America for
the role, who are the types of people that are
saying no? And are they suggesting an alternative?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Well, there was another actor that almost everyone is me
and my casting directors like more, you know. And her
name was Anna, and she was an actual student at
Beverly Hills High School, and she was fifteen, and she
was more conventionally beautiful, but she was not really an actor.
Emergin had a sister who was in a soap opera
(15:45):
actor with her. She just wanted to follow her sister photosteps.
So as with America, she had this passion for acting,
you know. So that's the one that was the preferred
person America. She really was the best. So one of
the strategies I used was that I brought her I think,
for like eight callbacks. Yeah, and you know, and then
I do all these tests with different potential models and
(16:09):
different potential boyfriends and all these things just to kind
of show her capacity, and then I would direct her
different ways.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It's fascinating because some directors seemingly, I mean, it's like
they don't even think about performance, and other directors are
very performance oriented, and it sounds like you spent a
lot of time directing performance. Real women have looks beautiful, right,
So it's not a film that is negligent to the
cinematography or the realism of the sets. All of that
(16:40):
is very meticulous. But I'm curious how many takes are
you doing, how much time are you spending with the
actors on their performances.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
As much as it's needed. So, but you know, I think,
like what I do before is that, you know, is
that I meet with each actor like one on one.
And I began doing this when I did The Water Carrier.
I couldn't have rehearsals, which is the case very often
because either there is no time and there is no
budget to do rehearsal. I meet with each actor and
(17:07):
then I read all their scenes, and they read their lives,
and I read all the other lives. I did this
with American and I did this with Loupe, and then
we talk about all these scenes. So by the time
we get to set, although we didn't have an official rehearsal,
we are in the same page and we kind of
know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
You make the film. Do you remember getting the call
being told that you were premier on sun Dance And
did Sundens mean anything to you at that time? Oh?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
You know, I had worked for Sundance for five years,
so I knew Sundance very well. And I and Jeff
Kilmen was the director of the festival, and have worked
very closely with him. And actually when I got the
call saying that I was accepted, I cried because I
thought I was going to destroy my movie because there
was very little time to finish it. But basically the
movie was selected on an editor's rough assembly because on
(17:57):
November fifteen, I was still cheating in New York and
then we find out like the first week, you know,
right after Thanksgiving, we found out we have and then
basically we had three weeks to edit.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
It was like a three million dollar budget or something yes,
which is like a pittance yes perspective. So you were like,
you're running out of money basically and time. It sounds yes.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You know, I believe so much in editing that I thought,
if I have to edit this moving in three weeks,
I'm gonna destroy it. So I was gonna call Jef
Gilmour and tell him please don't accept the movie. And
my editor told me, sit down, don't call yet. Let's
think about it. You know, the big advantage that you're
gonna have, she told me that is because we only
have three weeks. The cut is gonna be your cut.
(18:39):
Nobody's gonna do anything.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Right because you have, you know, the facto directors.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Because the fact the director's cut. Yes, because the directors
get like twenty weeks. So I'm gonna have three weeks.
She told me that because she she's very smarred. And
I thought, okay, you've conmused me. Let's get to work.
And then we've left in the editing room for like
three weeks and we're working on.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
The stop and so you know, when you get there,
you're like the bell of the ball. I mean, it's
like the coolest experience for a week. How did you
internalize suddenly all these people saying, oh my god, I
love your movie, Oh my god, what are you going
to do next? What was that like?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
No, you know, it was very joyful. And also because
once I got there before the first screening, I had
no idea if the movie work at all.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Because like we oh god, the first time an audience laughs,
isn't it like a thousand pounds have come off your shirt?
You're like, oh, it worked all the shit. If that
joke worked, then the other ones are gonna work. Oh
my god. You know. It's like a were you where
were you standing?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I was seating. It was at the library, and I
was sitting next to mob Naturaler and we were holding its.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Also you you sat in the audience. Yes, I had
to like hide behind the curtains because I couldn't. Yeah,
it was.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Chalking, you know, it was chalking to see how people
were laughing so much, how some of them now get lost,
and and how people are screaming and then the stand innovation.
That was amazing. You know, it's.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Wonderful, unbelievable. And so the film premieres at Sundance. It's
an HBO film, so it already has distribution inherently. I
don't think it's hyperbole to say it's been a phenomenon, right,
I mean, here we are, it's twenty twenty three, and
we're still talking about real women f curves. I think
(20:25):
you get at least one, if not five requests a
year to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Movie A lot lot, you know, it's more than that,
you know, I get ten, twenty, sometimes thirty times a year.
Is amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I have to say, this film, it's incredibly well crafted.
It's a grounded film. You know, It's one that at
least to me felt very real watching it, and it
has all of this love and respect for it. But
you found you had trouble following it up, right, I mean,
uhh yeah, you know. I mean you would think and
(20:59):
it's just you. By the way, After looking at sort
of your career, I was like, well, what other you
know Latina directors since and in the last you know,
twenty something years, it's been somewhat disheartening to see. I
think we counted four films, like you know, I think
Patty Reagan has two of them, and there's yours, and
(21:20):
there's one more than Eva Longoria's recent you know, ha
Chieto's movie. What was the next project you wanted to
make after Real Women?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Of course, you know, I was attached to the directors
amazing project, but it was not Latino. It was with
Halle Berriott Universal. It eventually got made as an Netflix
movie called Nappily ever After, and I love that project.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
It was a woman who like her her was the
symbol of her security and then she loses her her
and then all her journey to find herself and I
love that project. So I was in development health for
like two years. So that was that was very sad for.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
People who don't know. That basically means you're like reworking, reworking,
reworking the script, right.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
It worked like two or three different writers and supervising
and it was very hard. And at the end this
grip was kind of a Frankens time because some scenes
were written to please the president of the studio owners,
to Pis, the executives, the producers, the actors, and me.
So I was very sad, but I guess he was
part of the process. I had a project that I
loved before Real Women that it was about us Grdi Nandez,
(22:23):
which is a Venezuelan doctor who died and in the
at the time, he was in the process of becoming
a saint, and now he's a saint. So I had
that project for many years, and I loved that project.
You know, it was like fantasy because part of the
story happened in heaven after he dies and he's stalling.
He's going through training to be a saint, and he
doesn't want to be a saint. So that was like,
(22:45):
you know, like, I feel that I'm misunderstood because I
have like these stories and these ideas that I know
they're going to do well with audiences because I'm always
writing and directing for audiences. I want people to see it,
and I know they're going to Everything I've done is
very successful commercially and also critically. But yeah, to me,
the audience is most important of everything. But they're weird,
(23:05):
the stories, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we could attribute it partially
to Okay, you gravitate towards weird stories, and maybe those
are viewed as non commercial, but I have to think,
I mean, it's astonishing to me that there are not
more specifically after what you did, right, But this film,
(23:26):
it's such a statement piece. It's like, look, a female
Latina director makes a movie real women have curves with
an almost holy female Latina cast, and it's a great success,
you know, and yet it's like fucking Groundhog's Day. I mean,
this is what I'm learning making this podcast. And it's
not just Latino directors, it's all of us. It's the
unfortunate truth is that the representation numbers have just not
changed over fifty years.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
It's horrible, horrible, you know, horrible is an understatement, understatement,
and so when you're having discussions with you know, studio
executives or whoever else it is, is this coming up,
like what is the existence that you're coming up against.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I didn't have a clarity as of like, word was
my statistics statistically my chances of making more movies? And
if you look at the statistics there is not surprising.
You know, only like four percent of women are directing features.
And of that four percent, you know, zero points sixty
six latinas. So it is just not going to happen.
(24:23):
But the thing is that nobody tells you that. You
go into all these meetings. You know, there was this
other period up to direct Hollywood movies with budgets with
good budgets, and I was like a runner up seven times,
but there's nothing that I ordinerated, and none of them
were Latino subjects. And I was always like one of these,
you know, like you go through all these interviews and
(24:45):
then the president of the studio it's we two finalists,
and out of those seven, always the other person was
a white man and he always got the job. And
I invest years of my life, you know, it was
good practice for storytelling and for pitching and for everything.
But I never had a chance. And I was not
aware that I didn't have a chance. You know, I
(25:06):
felt that it was a fair game, and it was not.
You know, I think that I was just being put
there to have like a quota to say, we talked
to a woman, we took a person of color, and
that person was in the running.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
But you are very tenacious or relentless, right, yeah saying
And so my question is after each of these experiences,
you had to say, Patricia, keep going right, and I mean,
now you're working like crazy, But were there any moments
where you were like, I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Oh so many times I thought I was gonna give up,
And you know, I love plants and fruits, so I
thought I'm gonna become a farmer. I really, I really
thought that, and I went to this working farming Ventura country, beautiful.
I loved it, and it was a Colombian woman, Marito
Japanese farmer. But I realized it was not gonna work out. So,
(25:56):
you know, I just think that I want to give up,
and then I give up, but then something inside me
takes over and I just can't control, and I just
keep going. So at some point I realized that I'm
just gonna die trying, you know. So I'll be in
my nineties and I'll be trying, and hopefully when I
get to be in my nineties, I had more movies
to show.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Sure, And I mean, look, it's not movies, and I
totally get that. But you have had something of a
career renaissance, resurgence, normalization, whatever we want to call it,
you know, through television directing right, yes.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Which was also also almost impossible to get. And it
was only because if I done Harmy direct in Sugar
five years ago. I've only been directing television for five years.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
But since that moment, since Ava Duberney hires you I
mean you seem to be working all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yes, yes, and I love it because I love working
and I just have so much fun. Everyone tells me
when day Simons said that, I'm just so joyful, it's
just like I'm so happy. I love the whole process.
So yes, it's my happy place, you know. And I
love the collaborations with the cinematographers. Like last year, I
did four episodes and the four cinematographers I worked with
(27:06):
were amazing.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
You mentioned that real woman looks fearful, and I started
by the visuals. I really love the visuals of telling
a story with images, so that's super important to me.
And then connecting the camera with the emotion is like
so joyful to me. So television is offering me just
like a playground to have fun and tell stories and
have a big impact. Because it still from my anthropological approach.
(27:32):
I told you I was an anthropologist.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
You mentioned it briefly, Yeah, but how did that influence
your filmmaker.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Completely, Like I consider myself a cinematic anthropologist.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
The producer Brunapa and Andrea, she's a big time producer
of a lot of a lot of wonderful things. She's
the one who told me, like, we're talking about what
should be my brand because and I'm like, I don't
know what my brand is because I like so many things.
And then she said, you're a cinematic anthropologist, and I'm like, yes,
you're right, I am, yeah, because to me is that
(28:03):
reality is to make things very real. So I do
a lot of research.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I heard I heard you say. You know, you talk
about all the time you spent in East LA for
real women have curves, and you know, so much of
what I love about the film is it rather than
kind of telling us about the Latin experience or the culture,
you show us instead, did you draw on your own
(28:29):
real life experiences? You know, aside from just studying the neighborhood,
how much of your own life and family found its
way into that fai?
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Oh so much.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
The essence of the relationship between the mother and the
daughter is my mom and meat. That's completely the essence
of that. And then a lot of the love of
the culture too. There were many things that were not
in this script, like the san Antonio hanging up.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
And taking the baby away from some make him work faster, yes,
you think he works faster? If you take the yes.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, So, like those were completely things that I put
into it and also create making more layered characters because
from the script and even during the editing, the biggest
challenge was that the character of the mother.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Was to mean yes, she is very to mean she is, oh.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
But she is nothing compared to what she was in
the script. Nothing. So I work very closely with Lupe,
you know, how do we show this, how do we
she's coming from? And then we came up little this
backstory and.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Women talking about the menopause bit is really powerful in
a couple of ways. One because America's face in that scene,
and this is again another thing that I love about
it is a lot of times, let's you know, movies,
everything can be kind of big, you know, and in
that scene, America just sort of rolls her head to
the side and you can just tell us this little
(29:51):
tiny victory for her, you know that she's right that
you know, you're not pregnant, you're going through the change,
you know. But it is also a very humanizing moment
for Lupe. Yes, how did you approach that scene in
particular with them?
Speaker 2 (30:06):
You know, like very straightforward. We've talked a lot about
the characters, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
They just was that part of the plan to like
humanize her or was that?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Oh yes, that was such a big effort because she
was not like human.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Like.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
One another thing that I did to make her more
human if I gave her birds, like a cage with birds,
so she would take care of them. So we saw
her being kind to something.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Oh my god, it's almost like a save the cat.
It's like save the birds.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
And also that scene where Anna burns her hand like
ch combs and kisses her hand. And also we gave
her our trities. You know, it's not in the script.
The way she walks and the ways when she washes
the dishes, you see that she has her trities.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yea, yeah, yeah. Lupe is also one of those actors
that can be harsh. She seems like a tough cookie
and a lot of her roles. I've heard that she
wasn't your first choice.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
No, she was not, because I was very scared that
because she had been in the play version and I
wanted the movie to be different from the play, and
I was scared that she would bring the same character
to the play.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Was this a production at La Theater Company where she
was involved or.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
You know, I didn't see the one she did. She
knew the very first ones, but I wanted something very
different than the original concept of the play. So I
was very reluctant to that. But then we had casting
directors in New York, in Texas, in Mexico, in LA
and there was no one as good as her. So
I asked to meet with her and I told her,
you know what, I admire your work, but I am
(31:39):
very hesitant because you did the play and you might
hear that.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yes, Oh my god. How did she react?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
She told me I didn't like what I did in
the play.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Oh wow, look at that.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And she told me, you know, and she had a
lot of things that she didn't lack in the skirt
and we agree with them, and so we were in
the same page.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I mean, my reaction is because these are very sensitive.
I know.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I was very scared to say that, but I was
very surprised.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
In the movie, there's a scene where America Ferrera and
her boyfriend share an intimate moment. It's not your typical
teenage love scenet.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Turn the lights on.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I want you to see me. See this is what
I look like.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
How did you approach such an intimate scene with two teenagers.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, you know, and they didn't have a lot of experience. So,
like I did meet with the two of them a
few times and then we talked and they talked to me,
and they were very open about what romantic experiences they
had and they didn't have before. But I just impact,
you know, like I want you to be comfortable. Anything
that you need, will do it. This is how goe it,
shoot it. And I think all that preparation and just
(32:55):
listening and asking them questions about listening to their questions,
I think that made it when once we went.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
There, do you remember the kind of stuff they were
concerned about? Now?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Were concerned that they had never had sex before. So
they told me that they were concerned about that. I'm like,
don't worry, you need to pretend anything, and you know,
if you want to stop the camera, we can stop
the camera anytime.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
But the part that feels the most intimate is really
the moment I think they're standing in front of them
the mirror, yes, yeah, and it's so small. Did they
grasp the intimacy of that or did you have to
work with them to like bring it inward? You know?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I think that from the work we did before we shot,
they were so ready when we shoot it, you know, yes,
And they were both very kind and very young, and
very easy going. And they trust me so much, and
I trust them a lot too, And that.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Is how I'd like you to be with me, dear listener,
easy going, trusting, especially when I break for yet another
set of ads. Welcome back to my interview with Real
(34:15):
Women Have Curves Director Patricia Cardozo, and thank you for
your undying patients. I wondered whether Cardozo, who has been
working as a Latina in Hollywood for decades now, thinks
we've actually made progress in terms of representation. So I
want to come back a little bit too, both the
question of like post Real Women Have Curves and then
(34:38):
the future for you and for other Latino filmmakers. America
was quoted as saying that she felt like as you
traveled to other film festivals, she thought the floodgates were
going to open for Latino filmmakers in general, and as
we discussed, they haven't quite yet. Do you feel like
we're at a tipping point? Do you think the twenty
(34:59):
twenty means are different than the nineteen nineties or the
two thousands or does it feel like we're still in
groundhogs day.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, that's a very good question, you know, I hope
it is. But I've also lived long enough to have
seen things will up and down and up and down
and up and down. But I think that definitely what
is different now is the awareness that we all have,
like we're naming things with their names and we're saying,
this is what the reality is. And I never saw
that before to say, you know, these are the percentages.
(35:29):
And there is definitely you know the fact that for
the past five years I've been able to direct television.
I love it so that that gives me hope.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
But even there, you're like, I mean I've heard people
say there's basically Patricia Cardozo in the TV directing.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
No, there are a lot of us.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
There's more now, you know, but I think the rate
was still at like two percent or something.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Oh yeah, well it's still very low.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Not to be a bummer, but I'm just I'm trying
to put it into context. But you're seeing growth even
within the female like Latina director TV director.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Oh yes, there is a lot of them. We went
to the Big DJA directors still meeting when we were
ratifying the Boat a few weeks ago, and there were
so many women. I remember because I've been a DJ
I remember for twenty two years, and I would go
and I would be almost the only woman, the only
person of color, and there were so many women. It's
just so great, And I think we all have much
(36:22):
more awareness of how things are going. So I'm very optimistic.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Besides, you know, changing studio heads, besides helping one another,
what else can we do to better our numbers on screen?
Is there something that we're missing that near twenty odd
years since making this movie that you're like, if we
only did more of X, you know, we'd be better
on Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I've never thought about that. But what came to my
mind is I think outside the box, do things differently,
not try to imitate the things that are already there.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Be more bald, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Thinks ought the box. And I think that in Jealous,
like the LATINX community, we need to have this personality
that we're humble and work kind and we are accommodating
to our people. So we have to find that, you know,
just so we have to put our change. And I
think that that a lot of that comes from the
colonize our psychic, you know. And I do a lot
(37:19):
of teaching, and I've been teaching at Yucice Riverside, which
is forty percent LATINX and first generation students, and we
talk about this in constant The most amazing, most talented
filmmakers are there and they openly would say, yes, Salatino,
I feel m less. I think that it's maybe it's
that internal cheap that we need to work on, you know,
(37:40):
like in my teaching, I'm not just interested in teaching
is technical skills. I want you to have confidence, Yeah,
to really be confident, strong, bald like you.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
You said you don't you don't feel that way a
lot of the times, but it is how you come
across yes, and that's probably been a big help in
your success, you know. Well, Patrisa Cardoso, I really appreciate
you coming on and talk to us about such an
important film and your career as well. And I hope
this isn't the last time, So thank you so much
(38:15):
for being here.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
And speaking of Bravado. Next week, we got some real
vatos locos in the studio, Jesse Barrego and Enrique Castillo
aka Montana and Cruz, two true gangsters and the stars
of the iconic prison film Blood In, Blood Out More
(38:42):
Than the Movie. Season two was produced by Chloe taglia
Ganbe with the help of Reynolds Gutierres and Veronica Hernandez
in partnership with Iheartsmichael Tura podcast network, hosted by me
Alex Fumetto, edited by Rose Reid and Chloe taglia Ganbe
with the help of Side Cavedo. Executive producers are Carmen Gratto,
Rose Reed, Isaac Lee, and me Alex Fomido. Sound designed
(39:03):
by Gozzalo Messi, original music by Golden Mines, Darko and
Ieme recorded at JTB Studios and Vaudeville Sound Our. Executive
producers at iHeart are Gazelle Bansis and Arlene Santana. For
more Michael Dudda Podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your favorite shows.
How do you then get connected to real women.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Well, you know, our producer had the play and he
contact me and he said, you know, I'm thinking of
adapting this into a movie, and it was being a
stage in Los Angeles. I went to see the play,
but I did like the staging because it was when
the women take off their clothes.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh, the actors have very and flattering underware, like really exaggerated,
so people like the audience was laughing at them, not
with them, and that's what's horrible. So I walk out
of the play.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
You out of real women of girls? Yes, oh my god.
Welcome to more than a movie, a podcast that gives
you a behind the scenes look at your favorite movies.
I'm your host, Alex Fumero. Last season, we did a
deep dive on American met This season, I'll focus on
(00:53):
a different movie. Each episode feature interviews with the biggest actors, directors, writers,
and producers behind them and tap into the history of
Latinos in film. In this episode, we are exploring the
two thousand and two classic Real Women Have Curves. Real
Women Have Curves is the coming of age story of
(01:14):
a first generation Mexican American girl played by America Ferrera,
who would go on to star in shows like Ugly
Betty Superstore and most recently in The Barbie Movie, for
which she was nominated for an Academy Award. At the time,
America was only seventeen years old, but would win an
Independent Spirit Award and a Special Jury Prize for Acting
from the Sundance Film Festival for her role as Anna Garcia,
(01:36):
an ambitious teenager growing up in Los Angeles who has
dreams of going to an Ivy League school across the country.
She regularly challenges the norms and expectations of her family,
especially her mother, played by the legendary and late Lupeon Tiverros,
who you might know as Jolanda Saldivar in the movie Selina,
but I prefer to remember for her role as Rosalita
(01:59):
in The Goonies. Girls nowadays think they know so much.
That's why they end up bansona no mom.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
The reason they end up pregnate is because they don't
know how to use contraceptives.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Your husband's not gonna like it known so much. Why
is a woman's virginity the only thing that matters? A
woman has thoughts, ideas a mind of her own.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
The woman who cast a precocious Ferrara in the lead role,
who discovered her is less known, but perhaps no less influential.
Patricia Cardozo is one of only a handful of Latinas
ever to direct a studio movie, and she's inspired scores
of young Latinas to try and flip those statistics on
their head. I asked Cardozo on the show to talk
(02:40):
both about what she went through to make Real Women
Have Curves and how she's confronted the challenges of being
a Latina director in Hollywood. I'm here with acclaimed director
of the now legendary movie Real Women Have Curves, Patrica Cardoso. Patricia,
thank you so much for being here on more than
a movie.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Thank you for having me here.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I obviously want to talk about the making of that
particular film and its role in the canon or the
it's placed in Latino film history, but I did want
to start earlier. You know, I've heard you talk about
loving storytelling from a very young age and loving to
tell stories, and I think it's probably a prerequisite for
(03:24):
all of us who make movies that were obsessed with storytelling,
or otherwise we wouldn't do something so difficult. But I wonder
could you talk a little bit about why you love
to tell stories, why you loved to tell stories at
that age.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
You know, that's a good question because I just remember,
since I have memory since before I learned how to
read and write, I like telling the stories, and I
think I like to entertain people. You know, it just
sounds weird to me because I think that I come
across as a very serious person and not as an entertainer.
But I guess I'm an entertainer. You know, I like
to tell interesting stories. But I also, I think, is
(04:01):
why kind of to process my experiences, because I always
was very attracted to my personal experiences retold rearranging the facts,
but also good experiences of people that I knew close
to me, and also some rearrangement of the order of
the facts or some exaggeration to make it more entertaining.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Right, and your first I'm dropping ahead a bit, but
your first kind of like short film that you made
was precisely that, Right, You sort of drew from some
real life experiences, real people that you knew. I wonder
if you could talk about The water Carrier a little.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, The water Curriage was a story about a blind
mine in his eighties, set in the nineteen twenties in
a small village in Colombia, who recorded his side after
being blind for fifty years. And it was based on
a true story because my grandfather was one of the
first doctors in Colombia to do catark inless operations nineteen
twenty six and he did it in The Man who
(04:56):
Brought Water to His House. You know, he lived in
a small villa. Legend there was no running water. And
that movie is very grounded too, you know. Just I
come from an anthropology background, That's what I studied undergrad,
and I'm always like looking to reflect reality as real
as possible when I love like the popular culture in Colombia,
in everywhere Latin America, and I think that's what I
(05:19):
also like so much Carsia America because he had that
emphasis on popular culture and regular people, not in the
fancy people. And that movie, you know, told that story.
That was my physicism for UCLA. So it was like
a one hour film and it won still an Academy Award,
to the g Awards, it won a lot of awards,
and it was still a very good movie. And that's
(05:39):
the movie that got me the job to direct Real
Women Have Curves.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Real Women Have Curves started initially as a stage play
right in the early nineteen nineties, written by one of
the co writers of the screenplay, Jssefina Lopez. Yes, tell
me about the first time you came into contact with
the stage play Real Women Have Curves.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
That was like three years before I was approached by you, HBO,
and that was a producer. I had already done my thesis.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
From Yeah, how many years in school are you at
this point?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I'm only like two years after.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
You have a manager, You have an agent.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
No, I have a back pocket or agent.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Do you know what that is? In a back pocket agent?
And for people who don't know, is like basically somebody
hip pocket They also call it, right, It's like if
there's a thing, I'll call you, but you're not really
my client.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Is that exactly? Yeah? If someone called the agency and
ask who represents Patria Cardolo, they say no one. Yeah,
but then if I get a job, he gets ten percent.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Right, So basically, because this guy was hip pocketing you,
they just couldn't find a director. Yes, how do you
then get connected to real women?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Well, you know, a producer had to play. But this
is a different producer than the one who actually made it,
and he contact me. He said, you know, I'm thinking
of adapting this into a movie. Would you be interested
in reading the play. I write the play and I
loved it, and they say yes, and it was being
a stage Los Angeles. I went to see the play,
but I didn't like the staging because it was when
(07:05):
the women take off their clothes. All the actors have
very unflattering underware, like really exaggerated, so people like the
audience was laughing at them, not with them, and that's
what's horrible. So I walk out of the play Girls,
Yes after that scene. Yeah, But I had read the
(07:25):
play and I had loved the play. I knew it
was the staging. It was the way that there was
being portrayed, right.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
They were the butt of the joke instead of it
being a moment where you feel sort of empowered.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And that's why when I finally was directing the movie,
I knew that that scene was going to be so
crucial because I wanted to show the women to come
across as beautiful and show them with respect.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
You want to see celling like, all right, here we go,
this is selling, but you don't understand, ladies, let me
show you stresh Mark.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
From this two West.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Know how beautiful we are.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
To be rid of all these Just let it all
hang out, okay, ladies?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Who cares what we look like when no one's watching us.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I always think my view of the world, it has
a very wide angle for what is beautiful. You know,
everything is beautiful basically, and the culture Sonaro. So yeah,
I walk out of that play. I haven't told Seina
that story, but I did. But then that producer didn't
really didn't move forward. But the only thing that I
(08:45):
realized is that because I loved the play so much,
I realized that it was the same writer of another
play I had seen like two years before, called Simply Media,
which I had absolutely loved, and I felt it was
like this play an our play she had written. I
love her boys, because she's just very grounded, but it
has humor, but it's very real.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And probably one of the few playwrights. I mean, I
don't know about that other play, but it's like, who's
writing these plays at that time?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
There were so few plays written about the female experience,
the female Latina experience, right, So did you feel a
kinship with her? In that story.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Oh my god, yeah, I know. Just I felt that
even though our loves are completely different, I feel like
we have such a similar sensibility to tell the story.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, and so you walk out of that play, which
was if you know, will maybe find out about when
she hears this podcast? But then how does it come
back around?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Then I get a call from a producer in New
York that I've known for many years, and he tells me, well,
you know, HB always making a movie based in display
real women have curves, and they're looking for directors, Intervinian directors.
So I gave your name. So I got a call
from the producer, and then I was one of the
many directors of the interview. But now there was the
first draft of the play written, so I wanted the
(09:59):
screenplay and play. Yes, so I went to lumber. I
went to HBO to meet with Mot Nadler, who was
the executive in charge of the project, and to kind
of pitch my take, you know, which now is like
you have look books and all these things. Rember carrying
these huge bags with books, and I remember the City
Player to play the music, and I played the music
(10:19):
that I was on the City Player a tiny city player.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
What's that for someone who doesn't know what it's like
to pitch a take?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Right?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
What does that mean? What did that look like? How
did you pitch the take? I mean, you clearly had
a scorer with you, but aside from the score, how
did you do it?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah? You know it takes How if I get the job,
how would I direct the movie? Because the same screenplay
by different people could be completely different. So it's like,
what to me is the heart of the story, which
to me was the mother daughter relationship. It was not
as much going to college or not that was like
a really good structure, But to me, the heart was
the mother daughter relationship and how the mother was imposing
(10:58):
in the daughter a vision of what it should be
as a woman, and how the daughter like says, no,
this is not what I'm gonna do. But you know,
of course it takes her and and a have to
do that.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, well that's a good movie, right if it happened
in the first ten minutes, we'd be walking out. Yes,
But do you remember what kind of questions you got
from the executives that from the producers when you were
pitching your take?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You know, I remember a comment not that they but
later that the mod Nanda told me, the executive he
told me, the reason what I hire you is because
I had seen your previous movie, The Water Carrier, and
the respect you had for the characters. And that's one
of the best compliments I've ever gotten in my life
as a director.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right, because it's the opposite of that production you saw,
right it Rather than treat them as the bet of
the joke, you took them very seriously. And yet the
movie's still funny, right, Like it's it's yes, of course humor.
But America's character, even in doubting her conflict with her mother,
she's so sure of herself. She's certainly more confident than
a lot of seventeen year old girls.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
She's more confident than me. Now, I love that character
because I always thought this is who my wish I
was when I was seventeen.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
That's so interesting, because you do. I was going to
ask you you you do come off as very confident though,
I mean, even the way you describe you're like, yeah,
So I just I made a short film and it
won an Oscar and then I went in and pitched
my take to these producers, Like at any point in
this processor, you going, I shouldn't be here, like no
imposter syndrome going through your mind like happens with a
(12:28):
lot of us. Is there any self doubt? You know?
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Oh my god?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You know people give me that feedback that I project
and I'm very confident too, yeah, and I am like, no,
just the opposite that I'm so lack of confidence, you know,
and only like I think when I'm teaching, I'm so
open about it and people are always like amazed.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yes, I don't have time either, Patricia Cardoso, but I
do need to let these ads take up some real
estate or iHeartMedia is going to cancel my show. We'll
be right now. Welcome back to More Than a Movie.
(13:13):
I'm America Fromara and I'm talking to the director of
Real Women Have Curves, Patricia Cardozo, about how she convinced
the executives at HBO to let her direct a movie.
So the movie was already set up essentially because it
was an HBO original film, so you really just had
to sell them on you. And then how do you
(13:35):
I've heard you talk about how challenging the casting process was,
especially when it came to America, who was unknown at
the time. I think she'd done one Disney movie. In fact,
she was at theater camp or something when she filmed
the audition for real women. How do you convince people
who have more experience than you, people who have more
(13:56):
power than you in the room. How do you convince
them to do your bidding right? How do you convinced
them to cast the actress that you that you want,
that you feel is necessary to tell the story the
way you want to.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
You know, I think that my secret weapon is perseverance.
I just persist and perceived and persist.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
It took a long time to find an actor that
could play the role because by definition, you know, first
like most movies at the time were male actors. You know,
to have just a female lead, it was very initial, right,
And then to have a female lead that is latina,
I saw even more n usual. And then to have
a female lead that is latina and is a little overweight,
(14:37):
that's just like impossible, you know. So when we were
doing the casting, all the actors were so thin, and
we did open called casting and there are all these
actors in line, and they were so thin, and they
kept explaining to me that they didn't feel think that
they felt they were very overweight.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
That's fascinating. So from a Hollywood perspective, they're like, I'm
curvy and you're looking at them and going love, You're not.
You're within actress.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yes, but that's how we perceive ourselves, you know, we
have that.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
It's a microcosm of the film itself sort of playing
out in your casting process. And so I'm not asking
you to name names, by the way, but like when
you're running into resistance for an actress like America for
the role, who are the types of people that are
saying no? And are they suggesting an alternative?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Well, there was another actor that almost everyone is me
and my casting directors like more, you know. And her
name was Anna, and she was an actual student at
Beverly Hills High School, and she was fifteen, and she
was more conventionally beautiful, but she was not really an actor.
Emergin had a sister who was in a soap opera
(15:45):
actor with her. She just wanted to follow her sister photosteps.
So as with America, she had this passion for acting,
you know. So that's the one that was the preferred
person America. She really was the best. So one of
the strategies I used was that I brought her I think,
for like eight callbacks. Yeah, and you know, and then
I do all these tests with different potential models and
(16:09):
different potential boyfriends and all these things just to kind
of show her capacity, and then I would direct her
different ways.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It's fascinating because some directors seemingly, I mean, it's like
they don't even think about performance, and other directors are
very performance oriented, and it sounds like you spent a
lot of time directing performance. Real women have looks beautiful, right,
So it's not a film that is negligent to the
cinematography or the realism of the sets. All of that
(16:40):
is very meticulous. But I'm curious how many takes are
you doing, how much time are you spending with the
actors on their performances.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
As much as it's needed. So, but you know, I think,
like what I do before is that, you know, is
that I meet with each actor like one on one.
And I began doing this when I did The Water Carrier.
I couldn't have rehearsals, which is the case very often
because either there is no time and there is no
budget to do rehearsal. I meet with each actor and
(17:07):
then I read all their scenes, and they read their lives,
and I read all the other lives. I did this
with American and I did this with Loupe, and then
we talk about all these scenes. So by the time
we get to set, although we didn't have an official rehearsal,
we are in the same page and we kind of
know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
You make the film. Do you remember getting the call
being told that you were premier on sun Dance And
did Sundens mean anything to you at that time? Oh?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
You know, I had worked for Sundance for five years,
so I knew Sundance very well. And I and Jeff
Kilmen was the director of the festival, and have worked
very closely with him. And actually when I got the
call saying that I was accepted, I cried because I
thought I was going to destroy my movie because there
was very little time to finish it. But basically the
movie was selected on an editor's rough assembly because on
(17:57):
November fifteen, I was still cheating in New York and
then we find out like the first week, you know,
right after Thanksgiving, we found out we have and then
basically we had three weeks to edit.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
It was like a three million dollar budget or something yes,
which is like a pittance yes perspective. So you were like,
you're running out of money basically and time. It sounds yes.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You know, I believe so much in editing that I thought,
if I have to edit this moving in three weeks,
I'm gonna destroy it. So I was gonna call Jef
Gilmour and tell him please don't accept the movie. And
my editor told me, sit down, don't call yet. Let's
think about it. You know, the big advantage that you're
gonna have, she told me that is because we only
have three weeks. The cut is gonna be your cut.
(18:39):
Nobody's gonna do anything.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Right because you have, you know, the facto directors.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Because the fact the director's cut. Yes, because the directors
get like twenty weeks. So I'm gonna have three weeks.
She told me that because she she's very smarred. And
I thought, okay, you've conmused me. Let's get to work.
And then we've left in the editing room for like
three weeks and we're working on.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
The stop and so you know, when you get there,
you're like the bell of the ball. I mean, it's
like the coolest experience for a week. How did you
internalize suddenly all these people saying, oh my god, I
love your movie, Oh my god, what are you going
to do next? What was that like?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
No, you know, it was very joyful. And also because
once I got there before the first screening, I had
no idea if the movie work at all.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Because like we oh god, the first time an audience laughs,
isn't it like a thousand pounds have come off your shirt?
You're like, oh, it worked all the shit. If that
joke worked, then the other ones are gonna work. Oh
my god. You know. It's like a were you where
were you standing?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I was seating. It was at the library, and I
was sitting next to mob Naturaler and we were holding its.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Also you you sat in the audience. Yes, I had
to like hide behind the curtains because I couldn't. Yeah,
it was.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Chalking, you know, it was chalking to see how people
were laughing so much, how some of them now get lost,
and and how people are screaming and then the stand innovation.
That was amazing. You know, it's.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Wonderful, unbelievable. And so the film premieres at Sundance. It's
an HBO film, so it already has distribution inherently. I
don't think it's hyperbole to say it's been a phenomenon, right,
I mean, here we are, it's twenty twenty three, and
we're still talking about real women f curves. I think
(20:25):
you get at least one, if not five requests a
year to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Movie A lot lot, you know, it's more than that,
you know, I get ten, twenty, sometimes thirty times a year.
Is amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I have to say, this film, it's incredibly well crafted.
It's a grounded film. You know, It's one that at
least to me felt very real watching it, and it
has all of this love and respect for it. But
you found you had trouble following it up, right, I mean,
uhh yeah, you know. I mean you would think and
(20:59):
it's just you. By the way, After looking at sort
of your career, I was like, well, what other you
know Latina directors since and in the last you know,
twenty something years, it's been somewhat disheartening to see. I
think we counted four films, like you know, I think
Patty Reagan has two of them, and there's yours, and
(21:20):
there's one more than Eva Longoria's recent you know, ha
Chieto's movie. What was the next project you wanted to
make after Real Women?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Of course, you know, I was attached to the directors
amazing project, but it was not Latino. It was with
Halle Berriott Universal. It eventually got made as an Netflix
movie called Nappily ever After, and I love that project.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
It was a woman who like her her was the
symbol of her security and then she loses her her
and then all her journey to find herself and I
love that project. So I was in development health for
like two years. So that was that was very sad for.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
People who don't know. That basically means you're like reworking, reworking,
reworking the script, right.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
It worked like two or three different writers and supervising
and it was very hard. And at the end this
grip was kind of a Frankens time because some scenes
were written to please the president of the studio owners,
to Pis, the executives, the producers, the actors, and me.
So I was very sad, but I guess he was
part of the process. I had a project that I
loved before Real Women that it was about us Grdi Nandez,
(22:23):
which is a Venezuelan doctor who died and in the
at the time, he was in the process of becoming
a saint, and now he's a saint. So I had
that project for many years, and I loved that project.
You know, it was like fantasy because part of the
story happened in heaven after he dies and he's stalling.
He's going through training to be a saint, and he
doesn't want to be a saint. So that was like,
(22:45):
you know, like, I feel that I'm misunderstood because I
have like these stories and these ideas that I know
they're going to do well with audiences because I'm always
writing and directing for audiences. I want people to see it,
and I know they're going to Everything I've done is
very successful commercially and also critically. But yeah, to me,
the audience is most important of everything. But they're weird,
(23:05):
the stories, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we could attribute it partially
to Okay, you gravitate towards weird stories, and maybe those
are viewed as non commercial, but I have to think,
I mean, it's astonishing to me that there are not
more specifically after what you did, right, But this film,
(23:26):
it's such a statement piece. It's like, look, a female
Latina director makes a movie real women have curves with
an almost holy female Latina cast, and it's a great success,
you know, and yet it's like fucking Groundhog's Day. I mean,
this is what I'm learning making this podcast. And it's
not just Latino directors, it's all of us. It's the
unfortunate truth is that the representation numbers have just not
changed over fifty years.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
It's horrible, horrible, you know, horrible is an understatement, understatement,
and so when you're having discussions with you know, studio
executives or whoever else it is, is this coming up,
like what is the existence that you're coming up against.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I didn't have a clarity as of like, word was
my statistics statistically my chances of making more movies? And
if you look at the statistics there is not surprising.
You know, only like four percent of women are directing features.
And of that four percent, you know, zero points sixty
six latinas. So it is just not going to happen.
(24:23):
But the thing is that nobody tells you that. You
go into all these meetings. You know, there was this
other period up to direct Hollywood movies with budgets with
good budgets, and I was like a runner up seven times,
but there's nothing that I ordinerated, and none of them
were Latino subjects. And I was always like one of these,
you know, like you go through all these interviews and
(24:45):
then the president of the studio it's we two finalists,
and out of those seven, always the other person was
a white man and he always got the job. And
I invest years of my life, you know, it was
good practice for storytelling and for pitching and for everything.
But I never had a chance. And I was not
aware that I didn't have a chance. You know, I
(25:06):
felt that it was a fair game, and it was not.
You know, I think that I was just being put
there to have like a quota to say, we talked
to a woman, we took a person of color, and
that person was in the running.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
But you are very tenacious or relentless, right, yeah saying
And so my question is after each of these experiences,
you had to say, Patricia, keep going right, and I mean,
now you're working like crazy, But were there any moments
where you were like, I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Oh so many times I thought I was gonna give up,
And you know, I love plants and fruits, so I
thought I'm gonna become a farmer. I really, I really
thought that, and I went to this working farming Ventura country, beautiful.
I loved it, and it was a Colombian woman, Marito
Japanese farmer. But I realized it was not gonna work out. So,
(25:56):
you know, I just think that I want to give up,
and then I give up, but then something inside me
takes over and I just can't control, and I just
keep going. So at some point I realized that I'm
just gonna die trying, you know. So I'll be in
my nineties and I'll be trying, and hopefully when I
get to be in my nineties, I had more movies
to show.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Sure, And I mean, look, it's not movies, and I
totally get that. But you have had something of a
career renaissance, resurgence, normalization, whatever we want to call it,
you know, through television directing right, yes.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Which was also also almost impossible to get. And it
was only because if I done Harmy direct in Sugar
five years ago. I've only been directing television for five years.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
But since that moment, since Ava Duberney hires you I
mean you seem to be working all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yes, yes, and I love it because I love working
and I just have so much fun. Everyone tells me
when day Simons said that, I'm just so joyful, it's
just like I'm so happy. I love the whole process.
So yes, it's my happy place, you know. And I
love the collaborations with the cinematographers. Like last year, I
did four episodes and the four cinematographers I worked with
(27:06):
were amazing.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
You mentioned that real woman looks fearful, and I started
by the visuals. I really love the visuals of telling
a story with images, so that's super important to me.
And then connecting the camera with the emotion is like
so joyful to me. So television is offering me just
like a playground to have fun and tell stories and
have a big impact. Because it still from my anthropological approach.
(27:32):
I told you I was an anthropologist.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
You mentioned it briefly, Yeah, but how did that influence
your filmmaker.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Completely, Like I consider myself a cinematic anthropologist.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
The producer Brunapa and Andrea, she's a big time producer
of a lot of a lot of wonderful things. She's
the one who told me, like, we're talking about what
should be my brand because and I'm like, I don't
know what my brand is because I like so many things.
And then she said, you're a cinematic anthropologist, and I'm like, yes,
you're right, I am, yeah, because to me is that
(28:03):
reality is to make things very real. So I do
a lot of research.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I heard I heard you say. You know, you talk
about all the time you spent in East LA for
real women have curves, and you know, so much of
what I love about the film is it rather than
kind of telling us about the Latin experience or the culture,
you show us instead, did you draw on your own
(28:29):
real life experiences? You know, aside from just studying the neighborhood,
how much of your own life and family found its
way into that fai?
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Oh so much.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
The essence of the relationship between the mother and the
daughter is my mom and meat. That's completely the essence
of that. And then a lot of the love of
the culture too. There were many things that were not
in this script, like the san Antonio hanging up.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
And taking the baby away from some make him work faster, yes,
you think he works faster? If you take the yes.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, So, like those were completely things that I put
into it and also create making more layered characters because
from the script and even during the editing, the biggest
challenge was that the character of the mother.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Was to mean yes, she is very to mean she is, oh.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
But she is nothing compared to what she was in
the script. Nothing. So I work very closely with Lupe,
you know, how do we show this, how do we
she's coming from? And then we came up little this
backstory and.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Women talking about the menopause bit is really powerful in
a couple of ways. One because America's face in that scene,
and this is again another thing that I love about
it is a lot of times, let's you know, movies,
everything can be kind of big, you know, and in
that scene, America just sort of rolls her head to
the side and you can just tell us this little
(29:51):
tiny victory for her, you know that she's right that
you know, you're not pregnant, you're going through the change,
you know. But it is also a very humanizing moment
for Lupe. Yes, how did you approach that scene in
particular with them?
Speaker 2 (30:06):
You know, like very straightforward. We've talked a lot about
the characters, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
They just was that part of the plan to like
humanize her or was that?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Oh yes, that was such a big effort because she
was not like human.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Like.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
One another thing that I did to make her more
human if I gave her birds, like a cage with birds,
so she would take care of them. So we saw
her being kind to something.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Oh my god, it's almost like a save the cat.
It's like save the birds.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
And also that scene where Anna burns her hand like
ch combs and kisses her hand. And also we gave
her our trities. You know, it's not in the script.
The way she walks and the ways when she washes
the dishes, you see that she has her trities.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yea, yeah, yeah. Lupe is also one of those actors
that can be harsh. She seems like a tough cookie
and a lot of her roles. I've heard that she
wasn't your first choice.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
No, she was not, because I was very scared that
because she had been in the play version and I
wanted the movie to be different from the play, and
I was scared that she would bring the same character
to the play.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Was this a production at La Theater Company where she
was involved or.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
You know, I didn't see the one she did. She
knew the very first ones, but I wanted something very
different than the original concept of the play. So I
was very reluctant to that. But then we had casting
directors in New York, in Texas, in Mexico, in LA
and there was no one as good as her. So
I asked to meet with her and I told her,
you know what, I admire your work, but I am
(31:39):
very hesitant because you did the play and you might
hear that.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yes, Oh my god. How did she react?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
She told me I didn't like what I did in
the play.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Oh wow, look at that.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And she told me, you know, and she had a
lot of things that she didn't lack in the skirt
and we agree with them, and so we were in
the same page.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I mean, my reaction is because these are very sensitive.
I know.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I was very scared to say that, but I was
very surprised.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
In the movie, there's a scene where America Ferrera and
her boyfriend share an intimate moment. It's not your typical
teenage love scenet.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Turn the lights on.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I want you to see me. See this is what
I look like.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
How did you approach such an intimate scene with two teenagers.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, you know, and they didn't have a lot of experience. So,
like I did meet with the two of them a
few times and then we talked and they talked to me,
and they were very open about what romantic experiences they
had and they didn't have before. But I just impact,
you know, like I want you to be comfortable. Anything
that you need, will do it. This is how goe it,
shoot it. And I think all that preparation and just
(32:55):
listening and asking them questions about listening to their questions,
I think that made it when once we went.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
There, do you remember the kind of stuff they were
concerned about? Now?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Were concerned that they had never had sex before. So
they told me that they were concerned about that. I'm like,
don't worry, you need to pretend anything, and you know,
if you want to stop the camera, we can stop
the camera anytime.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
But the part that feels the most intimate is really
the moment I think they're standing in front of them
the mirror, yes, yeah, and it's so small. Did they
grasp the intimacy of that or did you have to
work with them to like bring it inward? You know?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I think that from the work we did before we shot,
they were so ready when we shoot it, you know, yes,
And they were both very kind and very young, and
very easy going. And they trust me so much, and
I trust them a lot too, And that.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Is how I'd like you to be with me, dear listener,
easy going, trusting, especially when I break for yet another
set of ads. Welcome back to my interview with Real
(34:15):
Women Have Curves Director Patricia Cardozo, and thank you for
your undying patients. I wondered whether Cardozo, who has been
working as a Latina in Hollywood for decades now, thinks
we've actually made progress in terms of representation. So I
want to come back a little bit too, both the
question of like post Real Women Have Curves and then
(34:38):
the future for you and for other Latino filmmakers. America
was quoted as saying that she felt like as you
traveled to other film festivals, she thought the floodgates were
going to open for Latino filmmakers in general, and as
we discussed, they haven't quite yet. Do you feel like
we're at a tipping point? Do you think the twenty
(34:59):
twenty means are different than the nineteen nineties or the
two thousands or does it feel like we're still in
groundhogs day.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, that's a very good question, you know, I hope
it is. But I've also lived long enough to have
seen things will up and down and up and down
and up and down. But I think that definitely what
is different now is the awareness that we all have,
like we're naming things with their names and we're saying,
this is what the reality is. And I never saw
that before to say, you know, these are the percentages.
(35:29):
And there is definitely you know the fact that for
the past five years I've been able to direct television.
I love it so that that gives me hope.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
But even there, you're like, I mean I've heard people
say there's basically Patricia Cardozo in the TV directing.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
No, there are a lot of us.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
There's more now, you know, but I think the rate
was still at like two percent or something.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Oh yeah, well it's still very low.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Not to be a bummer, but I'm just I'm trying
to put it into context. But you're seeing growth even
within the female like Latina director TV director.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Oh yes, there is a lot of them. We went
to the Big DJA directors still meeting when we were
ratifying the Boat a few weeks ago, and there were
so many women. I remember because I've been a DJ
I remember for twenty two years, and I would go
and I would be almost the only woman, the only
person of color, and there were so many women. It's
just so great, And I think we all have much
(36:22):
more awareness of how things are going. So I'm very optimistic.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Besides, you know, changing studio heads, besides helping one another,
what else can we do to better our numbers on screen?
Is there something that we're missing that near twenty odd
years since making this movie that you're like, if we
only did more of X, you know, we'd be better
on Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I've never thought about that. But what came to my
mind is I think outside the box, do things differently,
not try to imitate the things that are already there.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Be more bald, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Thinks ought the box. And I think that in Jealous,
like the LATINX community, we need to have this personality
that we're humble and work kind and we are accommodating
to our people. So we have to find that, you know,
just so we have to put our change. And I
think that that a lot of that comes from the
colonize our psychic, you know. And I do a lot
(37:19):
of teaching, and I've been teaching at Yucice Riverside, which
is forty percent LATINX and first generation students, and we
talk about this in constant The most amazing, most talented
filmmakers are there and they openly would say, yes, Salatino,
I feel m less. I think that it's maybe it's
that internal cheap that we need to work on, you know,
(37:40):
like in my teaching, I'm not just interested in teaching
is technical skills. I want you to have confidence, Yeah,
to really be confident, strong, bald like you.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
You said you don't you don't feel that way a
lot of the times, but it is how you come
across yes, and that's probably been a big help in
your success, you know. Well, Patrisa Cardoso, I really appreciate
you coming on and talk to us about such an
important film and your career as well. And I hope
this isn't the last time, So thank you so much
(38:15):
for being here.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
And speaking of Bravado. Next week, we got some real
vatos locos in the studio, Jesse Barrego and Enrique Castillo
aka Montana and Cruz, two true gangsters and the stars
of the iconic prison film Blood In, Blood Out More
(38:42):
Than the Movie. Season two was produced by Chloe taglia
Ganbe with the help of Reynolds Gutierres and Veronica Hernandez
in partnership with Iheartsmichael Tura podcast network, hosted by me
Alex Fumetto, edited by Rose Reid and Chloe taglia Ganbe
with the help of Side Cavedo. Executive producers are Carmen Gratto,
Rose Reed, Isaac Lee, and me Alex Fomido. Sound designed
(39:03):
by Gozzalo Messi, original music by Golden Mines, Darko and
Ieme recorded at JTB Studios and Vaudeville Sound Our. Executive
producers at iHeart are Gazelle Bansis and Arlene Santana. For
more Michael Dudda Podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your favorite shows.
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