May 16, 2024 • 49 mins
“You need to help me cast the Vatos Locos.” Season one of More Than a Movie offered a deep dive on American Me - Edward James Olmos’ notorious directorial debut about the formation of a real-life Mexican prison gang. In this episode, we take a look at the film that came just one year later - allegedly delayed in part because of the release of and reception to American Me - that has a startlingly similar premise, but a lot more heart. We talked to Jesse Borrego, the actor who played Cruz, about being tasked with finding the Vatos Locos and training them in the ways of chicanismo; and Enrique Castillo, who had to shape the character of big, bad Montana while filming in a fully-operating maximum security prison with real inmates.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Taylor had me do the scene with Miklo where I
tell him and he brought me aside and.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
He said, and that is that Damien Choppa.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is Damien Choppa. Yes, he's already been cast. Yeah,
And he said to me, I want to know what
this kid has inside of him, So do me a favor,
get me something out of him. And so as we
were doing the scene dialogue verbatim, all of a sudden,
when he got to feeling sorry for himself, I literally
(00:32):
grabbed him and I slapped him, actually slapped him in
the audition.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Welcome to more than a movie, a podcast that gives
you a behind the scenes look at your favorite movies.
I'm your host, Alex Fumetro. Last season we did a
deep dive on American Met. This season, I'll focus on
a different movie. Each episode, feature interviews with the biggest actors,
writers and producers behind them and tap into the history
of Latinos in film. But last season, we did a
(01:08):
deep dive on a movie called American Me. It was
directed by Edward James Almos and it centered on a
Mexican prison gang in the Los Angeles neighborhood of Boyle Heights.
It bears a startling resemblance to a film that would
come out only one year later, Blood In Blood Out,
(01:29):
directed by Taylor Hackford. In fact, we only came to
know about the drama surrounding American me the murders of
three of the film's gang consultants because of the stories
Danny Trejo told about the movie, a movie he claims
he rejected a pardon because a leader of lat Eme
(01:50):
told him it would be a bad look. Instead, he
took the role of Geronimo in Blood and Blood Out,
and the rest is history. Nobody was killed in connection
with Blood and Blood Out because the Vatos Locos weren't
a real prison gang, and the story, while inspired by
real gang life, was fictionalized sufficiently as to not draw
(02:13):
the ire of real life gangs. Director Taylor Hackford, who
was in a previous episode of this podcast, left the
door open for us to speak to him about the movie,
but to date we haven't been able to lock him down.
Danny Trejo outright declined our multiple attempts for interview. It's
impossible to know why, but it's conceivable that it has
(02:35):
something to do with the subject of our first season.
But who we do have are two of the stars
of the movie Blood and Blood Out, Jesse Brego who
played Cruz, and Enrique Castillo, who played Montana, and to
this day, despite long acting careers, it's probably the movie
they're best known for. So we will start with the
(02:57):
man behind the troubled artist known as Cruz, the heart
and soul of this movie, and I'll let him introduce
himself personally. If I asked who is Jesse Barrego, what
would the answer be?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
That's a good question. The chameleon.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
I was once called the most versatile actor of our time.
When that time was, I don't know, but but you
know Jesse Borego, the performer, Jesse Borego, the advocate for
cultural authenticity, Jesse Borego, you know, the uh.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
The storyteller. So I think that's how people know me.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
I started in the theater in Letatro Delvarrio with the Chicanos,
was raised in the Chicano culture, you know, developed my
indigenous identity, and above all, tried to exemplify it in
all the characters that I played.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
People ask me why did Gruse in pat people so much?
And I tell him because as an artist, as an actor,
I was at the top of my gay. Taylor knew
me from the auditions at La Bamba and he approached
me and said, hey, we're doing this film blood and
blood Out. You need to be in it and you
need to help me cast the Vatos locals. So I
took that very seriously as the de facto mascot of
(04:19):
the film. And I really felt that a lot of
the passion that we put in it as artists, between
all of us, from top to bottom, from Taylor to
Jimmy Baka to the performers, we really.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Put all of that love of our kultura in there.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
And I think that's how people recognize me as a
champion of the kudua.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Well yeah, and people may not realize just what a
big role you played in whatever you want to call it.
The authenticity, the very similitude of those guys, like why
they felt like they were from where they were from.
You know, this is the thirtieth anniversary year of the
film's premiere, and in the La Times profile recently written
(05:00):
about the film, Benjamin Brack gives you a lot of love.
He says, you know, if I attained any degree of
success in my portrayal within this film, A great deal
of the credit has to go to what I learned
from Jesse Borego, not only about the notion of God nalismo,
but about what it means to be a true and
giving artist as an actor.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
What do you think about that?
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
That man always had that.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
And you know, one of the things we did when
Taylor taxed me with finding about those locals is we
had a little theater camp. The auditions were like theater
and I told Taylor, I said, look, I'm gonna be down.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I'm going to be in the watrios.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
So if these actors can't hang, you're gonna know right away,
right basically trial by fire, Chicano fire, right, And so
I threw slang at them.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I threw all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
And one of the things that really impressed me about
Benjon is not only his ability to transform himself as
an actor, but also to be able to find that
authentic root of what that character is. And I thought
he did that incredibly well in Bacco. And I'm always
impressed by the performances, but I really really felt that
(06:09):
you could see Benjamin's artistry. I mean, Bacco was such
an immersive character and it literally like the Damien character
had to go night and day. So I think between
the three of us, we really tried to not only
be authentic to what these characters were, but we tried
to do the best job that we could as performers
and as actors.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Maybe you can clarify this a little bit, Jesse, but
you were saying, like, Taylor put you in charge of
sort of vetting the Vatos Locos as an actor, like
that's unusual.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
How does that work?
Speaker 4 (06:39):
Taylor Hatford understood that I was more than just a
one dimensional film actor. You know, he knew me from
my work on television, but he also knew that I
was theatrically trained. He also knew that I was culturally authentic,
and so I think for him it was important not
only with the writer Jimmy Santiago Baka being truly Chicano
(07:00):
on putting his experience in the script. He needed an
anchor for the performances, and I think he trusted me
with that. And he also knew that I was a
filmmaker and that I understood the process.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I understood the big picture, right, I.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Couldn't really help him in a lot of the work
that he was going to have to do at San
Quentin and with Damien. But he knew that in terms
of the Vatos locos, that I could really create some
sort of wonderful synergy between the three of us, and
that was the innocence that we were going to start
to break throughout the rest of the film. I always
(07:36):
tell the story that we stayed, you know that he
had the actor stay in the neighborhood city terrorist neighborhood,
what the Garrity Loma Boys. So we were there with
with one of the Glicas of East La one of
the well known ones, and they were so wonderful to us.
They took care of us. They were like our de
facto bodyguards. Some of the younger ones became extras in
(07:57):
the film. But by staying with them those few weeks,
I was able to focus, you know, Benjamin and Damien
and me into this kind of a camaraderie that people
would believe that we grew up together, but that we
also grew up Chicano's you know that we grew up
in this East La specific East Loast neighborhood. So I
(08:18):
think for me it was an honor. And like I said,
I knew Taylor, so I was very excited about making
his vision come to fruition. And I thought that he
was very very smart in who he was unifying with
him in this vision. And I thought that Jimmy Santiago
Baca as a writer, was giving us calling Chicano Shakespeare right,
(08:38):
that he was writing Chicano Shakespeare. So it was wonderful
to be able to take this lingo, take the slang
authenticated with my boys, with my actors, and create, you know,
the true root of Vatos Locals, which was that innocence.
And I really felt that that's what I was going
to be able to bring to it through the artistry,
right because I was the cultured one, right, I was
(08:58):
the artist. But I was also the one that constantly
was in danger of being eliminated because I wasn't a fighter,
because I wasn't faco, because I didn't have this chip
on my shoulder like Niklo. And so I think, then
when you see his tragic fall Feetl's tragic fall, it
speaks a lot to an experience that I know because
(09:19):
it happened in my family of art and culture and love,
in someone from the Vrio being totally destroyed by the
societal pressures. And I think that was the theme that
we wanted to touch on before Damien went into prison,
because then you understand why that happens and why the
syndicates are formed, and why there's this kind of dark
(09:41):
side to our Chicano culture.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
You know.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
See, this is one of the things I love about
about this movie and about the cast that's involved. You know,
for most people that you watched this movie and you're like,
this is this is like a boys in the Hood
kind of movie, Like, you know, there's a bunch of gangsters,
da da da. There is this weaving of this social
consciousness throughout him.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
I think that that's the dilemma of urbanized Chicano culture
is that, you know, we have all of these influences
in these traditions that come from our Mexicanidad, that comes
from our Mexican American roots growing up in the border
and in these states that were our culture. So there's
this kind of unspoken tragedy that we're still living as
(10:23):
second class citizens in our land. Right it was ours
as indigenous people, but then as as Espanos and then
as Mexicanos. And I think when you see the chip
on the shoulder that a lot of these Vatos have
in their cultural pride, right, because.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
There is a kind of a chip on the shoulder. Man.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
There's a kind of an edge to how we carry
our culture and our pride, and that's because we understand
that we have not been honored and that our contributions
have not been shared and treasured the way that other
cultures have in this side of the border. So, you know,
it was something that I think America has constantly struggled with,
(11:03):
and we as Chicano's, we carry that with us. And
so when they see that in our culture and our
way of being, it rubs them wrong. You know, there
is no justification of Chicano culture, right. We did it
first in the film. Taylor said this is something that
needs to be talked about, and so I think he
knew that we as actors, me geeky, you know, all
(11:23):
of us were going to bring that unspoken history into
our characters.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And the other thing that was beautiful about Jimmy Bada
and Taylor Hackford is they allowed those of us that
were the real Chicanos to improvise. So if we felt
that there was an unspoken something, they allowed us to
elaborate on that and put it into the words of
our character appropriately, and I thought that was so giving
as artists, especially in a film world where everything's like,
(11:52):
don't do this, don't do that, don't cross that line.
The collaborative effort really allowed us as Chicano actors to
exemplify these characters and to bring the beauty and the
joy and the honor of the Chicano culture, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And I think that's why it's over thirty years.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
There were even scenes that were rewritten because of that
kind of deference or that kind of inclusion.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Can you talk a little bit about how things were
kind of like changed on the fly in order to
make the film feel more authentic to the Chicano experience.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Well, that speaks to the artistry of Jimmy Santiago Baka
as the writer, but also everybody that Taylor chose.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
To collaborate with him in this vision.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
You know, he knew that if he got the right
artists in the right positions that at some point, if
something there was a color that was missing, if there
was a moment, if there was something that needed to
be said, that they were going to allow for that
that they were going to really really trust our instincts.
And that's why I tell you, you know, I'll praise and
honor to Taylor because when he approached me, that was
(12:56):
one of the things that he really made clear. He goes, look,
I'm gonna trust you on this. So when we go
to these auditions and we look for these vato locos,
I want you to really really really try to see
who connects with you, and from there really try to
find those artists that are going to honor these characters
in this story. And so I think it was the
(13:16):
same way all the way through the line. They trusted
me with that, they trusted a lot of the artists
that he put in those positions to authenticate that. And
I think that beauty of it. And you know, Taylor
always talks about it. You know, he says it's one
of the best films he ever made, and yet it's
one of the least successful of his films because of
the backup of our parents' studio company.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I mean, part of the reason it wasn't more of
a runaway success was because of the La riots, right,
I mean, the La riots happened in nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
I don't think that would have made a difference I
really do think that the you know it was it
was what you call the perfect storm.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Right.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
You had had the controversy with the other film, American
Me First, Yeah, which had released a year earlier. You
had the delay right as Taylor was trying to convince
you know, they talk about this mythical five hour cut.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Have you ever heard about that? No, tell me about it.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
There's apparently a five hour cut Taylor had first screened
to Disney, right because he had such dude, he had
ten years of these guys' lives, so he had three
movies in this one. But really what Taylor was trying
to do was Godfather one and Godfather two. We always
had that plan in mind. It was such a huge
story that it made sense. Well, Taylor had pretty much
(14:33):
shot enough for two films. But as the controversy with
the other films started to happen, as they started to
back off of it, as we saw the Rodney King
trial finishing up, there was this unease in la Well,
with all of that happening, Taylor screened this five hour
version for the studio. He wanted to convince them that
(14:55):
he had enough for two. It was there they of course,
at that point said, look, we don't even know I'm
to put out one, And at that point he realized
that he was going to have to try and finish
the one. So that's at the point that they rethought
it and said, look, well we have to finish the one.
Because they'd been screening it for six months, previewing it
(15:17):
with different people, we'd already gone through a press junket,
and so I think they kind of realized that the
film was open ended because they wanted to lead to
part two. So at that point they realized, well, should
anything happen, we need to know that we have a film.
So at that point they rewrote the end. They came
back six months later and said, look, we're going to
(15:38):
reshoot the end of the film.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
And I thought it was brilliant.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
The end of the film being your scene with Benjamin Bratt.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
With Benjamin with the river.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
And I think at that point Taylor realized, Okay, if
we're not going to do a part two, then we
really have to make sure that part one or.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
The film ends right.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
And so I think at that point Jimmy went back
retool the scene, same setup, but now you have the
development of the argument between Grucito and Baco. And when
you watch that scene and you watch this man who
has built his entire identity on this macho character that
(16:20):
never gives in actually break down because he realizes that
he caused all of that. It is such a poignant
moment and it just hmm, it just cleans up this
beautiful film. And that's why they love it. And you know,
again the brilliance of Jimmy to be able to take
that original scene and retool it in such a beautiful,
(16:42):
perfect way. We were able to end this incredible film
and our incredible performances in this way. It just speaks
again to the brilliance and the synergy of that team
that Tator Hackford brought together.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
You know, there is a brilliant synergy between this act
that you're about to hear and my bank account.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
So please listen. At point five X, we'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Welcome back to More than a movie. I am not
more than a host, Alex Fumeto. We're back with Jesse Borego,
who is telling us what it was like behind the
scenes working on a movie with a bunch of Latino
guys back in the early nineties, something that is rare
even today. You know, one thing I noticed at the
end of the movie. It is sad, but then you
(17:41):
start sort of like messing with him about like El gayoneuro,
and it's like very fun like you're very funny. Like
it's a very short segment, but you're very funny in
that last minute. And it made me go, you know,
made me think, like, is this kind of what it
was like behind the scenes, Like obviously you were dealing
with heavy subject and actress have to prepare and all
that stuff, but like, what was some of the camaraderie
(18:04):
like behind the scenes of making the movie, Because it's
not a lot of times that a bunch of young
Latino dudes, you know, get to all hang out together
on set. Like, if that's your career, you're very lucky. Absolutely,
So I'm wondering, like, were you all just fucking with
each other all the time or what was that like.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
All the time?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
We had to keep each other in the group, you know,
And that was great about the ensemble cast when we
did the auditions, especially when they started bringing in the
Vatos locals and more actors to kind of audition for
the about the local parts in a minute by length
they walked in I knew he was right right, and
me and him started spitting in Chicano slang right away,
So there was a kind of an understanding there of
(18:43):
who we were. And then you bring in a brilliant
actor like Ray mcruse whose uncles are from that scene,
and he was able to channel a lot of that
into his true characters. Now you've got this wonderful you know,
this wonderful ensemble cast. And so felt that we had
to constantly push envelope and push each other. So we
(19:04):
were always playing jokes on each other. And once we
got going and Benjamin and Damien caught on, I think
it really gave them a very authentic route to start
to work their particular plot journeys on and I think
hanging out at that neighborhood in Garrity Loma, the beautiful
(19:25):
Faminia that took care of us there.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I kept telling this to the actors. I go, look
look around, Listen, Listen to the way they're talking, Listen
to their slang. Right, this is modern East Laws in
the nineties, but they've retained a lot of the rhythms. Man,
they've retained a lot of the slang of the palon.
So don't be afraid to talk to them, you know,
relate to them, ask them questions, and more than anything,
(19:48):
I thought that Benjamin really embraced that. I remember the
first weekend we were there.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Raymond right came up to us and said, hey, listen,
we have a gang youth services as handing out Easter
baskets down at the local park Hazard Park. You think
the actors want to go down there and hand them out?
And I looked at the other actors and I said,
this is great. It's a great opportunity. One the neighborhood's
going to see us, so they're going to see us
hanging around here for a few weeks. I go, second,
(20:15):
I want you guys to pay attention. You know, this
is actor one oh one right here. The Latos. They're
slang almost almost eMTA. So I think that and Benjamin
wound up hanging out all day all night. He was
there as with the Vatos, trying to absorb them, trying
to figure out their slang, asking questions. You know, this
is the work that an actor really really loves. But
(20:37):
when you embrace it like that, you know you're showing
love for the kultura. You're showing love for the familia. So,
as an actor, a chance to portray these characters that.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You grew up around, that you like idolized, right for better,
for worse.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Right.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Yeah, Benjamin was always worried about that because when Taylor
wanted him to take his character all the way to
the deal side, you know, Benjamin had a really hard
time with it. He goes, no, you know this, this
is such a wonderful, authentic character. But then he realized,
as a storyteller and as an actor, oh, I get it,
he needs to.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Go all the way that way, right.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
And then you come back and you hear those beautiful
lines that Jimmy wrote for him that he says, you
don't know anything about being Chicano. You know, it's our
people out there struggling, surviving, working. That's what being Tekano
is about. And I'm like, bro, you're the Chicano in
this movie, homie. So I think even though he's beeduan No,
even though you know he's multicultural, you know, for him,
(21:38):
it was important to be authentic. For him, it was
important to have a cultural identity in Baco that he
could really touch on. You know, he should have been
nominated if that would have been a studio film. He
would have been right up there in the nomination. We
were supposed to win awards. From what I know of
the business, I knew what was going to get awards,
and I saw the energy. I saw the pedigree right
(22:00):
from Taylor Hackford all the way on down. So I
just saw so many awards and nominations. All we needed
to do was have that great couple of weeks that
these studios judge everything by right.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And we were headed that way. And what do you
think what got in the way. Two things happened.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
The other film beat us to the punch, and I
think it was correct for Taylor to say, we're not ready,
So we're not going to get into this competition about
which one is better. They're two different films, same kind
of theme, two different films. Let them have their day.
We were there at the same time. With that delay,
(22:40):
all the bad publicity of the reaction right to the
other film boom. Then that's when Eisner started to get scared.
Then you have all this unrest, then you have the riots,
and I think at that point they were already backing
off finishing the second part. They were already backing off
the project itself, and I think once that happened, they
(23:03):
said it's going straight to VHS, is what they told me.
And at that point Taylor had to start fighting for
the theatrical release that they had promised him. So I
can't imagine that Taylor didn't ream them a couple of times,
because that's how much and passionate he was about this film.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I mean, he was the de facto general.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
So always whenever we didn't we doubted ourselves.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
We looked up.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
You know, Carlos Carrasco, who played Popeye, tells this incredible
story about when they went to.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
San Quentin to film.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
He told us that Taylor had had these uh you know,
these these juntas with all of the actors and said,
look and a stick together all this stuff. Well, when
they got there, with all of the maximum security that
they had to go through, they got into the prison
and the first scene that they're going to film is
the big scene with all of the inmates at the cafeteria.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
That's the first thing filming. So they're looking around going,
oh my god, he goes.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
So there we were all twelve of us clicking together
all of the talks that we'd had, all the tutorials,
went out the window and we're sitting there because the
cacophony was unreal. He says, the cacophony you could not
hear yourself talking to the person in front of you,
and that was standard, right, he goes, So we did
not know how we were going to start filming because
(24:24):
it was just so crazy. Well, next thing you know,
Taylor gets up and without a bullharn starts letting everyone know,
pay attention. Everybody into director mode with a director voice,
and Carlos goes, it was amazing. But all of these inmates,
who were not actors, all of the sudden became quiet actors,
(24:44):
paying attention to their director. He goes, that's when we
knew we had it. That's when we knew that Mayestro
had our back and Metal Metal and then we were
able to do our work, which was to become these characters,
which was to become to make it seem like we
were raised in in San Quentin. So that story tells
you the type of leadership that we had, and I
(25:05):
think Taylor passed that on.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
You know, we were his captains. He was the general.
We were his captains.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
What's the deal with the name change? Blood and Blood
out Bound by honor. Was that part of this controversy
around like the release of the film.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
So we had done the press junket for about three
months as Blood and Blood Out. So we had been
promoting this film as Blood and Blood Out right about
the time that all this controversy came up, and we
were going to try and screen and we were waiting
to hear when when when Taylor comes up to me
and says, oh, by the way, we're changing the title.
And I said what, I go, Taylor, you realize we've
(25:40):
been promoting its one day. He goes, I know, he goes,
but the only way they're going to let me have
a theatrical is if we changed the name. And he
told me the name truthfully, I said, Taylor, it sounds
like a military film, right, and he goes, yeah. But
out of all the titles, this is the only one
that we could pull off, he said, And don't worry.
Once we get it out to the audience, name will
go back. And sure enough, when it went back to VHS,
(26:03):
they changed it back to Blood and Blood Out.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Interesting, huh.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Interesting that they didn't want the Tikano audience to go
to the theater and make it a success, but they
did want them to rent it on VHS.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
I've heard people say that this is like the most
people always make claims like this, but that this is
one of the most pirated movies of all time, basically
because in the hood they would just be copying VHS's
of this thing just to get their hands on it.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
When I see Latin American fans and they hear my voice,
it blows them away. They go, wow, this film is
thirty years old. I'm in the middle of the hills
of Michwa Khan and this man knows my face, my voice,
my performance and is excited by it. We didn't win
the awards, but the award I get is that Mai
Rasa got to see it, Miudura got to.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Enjoy it, and the world gets to share it.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
And I think that's the best giveaway I think about
about this film is that it did survive, you know,
the attempt to squash it. It did survive the attempt
to make it inactive. And I think that all of
that is that passion that we put into it. There
was no way that that seed was not going to
sprout and grow and flower. No matter how much dirt
(27:16):
they put on it. So I think that's really the
best takeaway of Blood and Blood Out is that more than.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Thirty years, you're talking about generations.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Well, Jesse Boreo, I think that's a great place to end.
I really want to thank you for being here and
honoring this film on its thirtieth anniversary year. Man, So
congratulations and I wish you even more success.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Thank you, brother, and thanks for supporting us all these years.
Batos Locals Forever.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
So now you've met the artist behind the artist known
as Cruz. But no Blood and Blood Out episode would
be complete without meeting the leader of Launda, the one
they call Montana, who, as it turns out, wasn't so
much a real gangster as a real thespian. Let me
introduce them to you. More than a movie is really
(28:09):
a podcast about not just like the behind the scenes
of filmmaking, but like what it was like to live
making these movies right and the lives behind the movies themselves.
To put people kind of in the shoes of what
it was like to be there before you made a
l Norte or before you made Bound by Honor, Blood
and Blood Out, before you made me Familia, right. But
(28:31):
in order to do that, let's start at the beginning. So,
Endrica Castillo, why don't you tell our audience who is
Endrica Castillo.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I grew up as a farm worker. I grew up
in a border town, Calexico, California, which is unique because
it's a combination of two words, right, California and Mexico Calexico, Yeah,
and on the on the on the Mexican side is
MEXICALI Mexico, Mexico, inc. So I basically grew up in
(29:03):
a lower class family. You know, we all had to
work for a living as families in the summers. My
father lived his life as a farm worker. I worked
with him in the fields orchards from the time I
could walk to my sophomore year at UC Berkeley, which
is where I met Louise Bildez, who created a tetro
(29:26):
campasino and that led me on the course to bring
me to La.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
I'd love to know you know, you meet Louise. I'd
love to know what your experience was like working with
the Atra Campecino.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Well, it was incredible. I met Louise when I was
a student at Berkeley and I had wanted to consider
having a career as an actor in LA and a
counselor in the department told me that somebody was coming
to teach theater who had connections with Hollywood, and that
(29:56):
person turned out to be Louis by this and we
it off right away. I mean it was not like
a professor and student. We were more like friends.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
How old around was Louis at that time? Had he
had already done he hadn't done Zutsuit the movie yet,
or had not?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
No, no, This was the early stages of the move
that he made from de Leno to San Juan Bautista,
and there was a complex there with a huge patio
and there was a little, a very small theater that
they had there. So he took over that complex from
the owner. I believe it was like nineteen sixty nine,
(30:34):
and then he invited people from different tatros that were
created across the country to come and workshop in San
Juan Bautista and we created a production of which was
the original Los Corridos that eventually ended up on PBS,
with Linda Ronstad and Dannie Waldess's brother playing music. We
did a lot of improvisation and Louis created several pieces
(30:58):
out of it, and then we brought that productuction to
Los Angeles and as a resulted won La Drama Critics Award.
And actually that was my first offer from Hollywood, which
we eventually ended up turning down because of course we
didn't want to have anything.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
To do with howe.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
What was the offer as it was told to me,
because I was not there when it was presented. It
was producers from Paramount Studios that come to see the production,
and they came backstage and they asked for me. And
they were doing a production called The New Centurions by
Joseph Wambau and it starts Stacy Keach I believe, and
(31:34):
the role was the role of a police officer that
ended up actually being cast with Eric Estrada, No Amazing,
And of course he went and springboarded onto Chips probably
from there.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I mean, that's such an interesting alternate dimension where you
make one different choice and you are a guy from Chips.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
It's like a total totally different career. Could you could
have been dos bohensum Camino?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Right?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
The thing was at that time about Hollywood, I had
a chip on my shoulder like this.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, so talk to me about the transition to LA
How do you go from this? You know, I'm sort
of traveling the world with a bunch of wonderful, eccentric
theater artists who had actually Mexican gypsy I love that,
traveling the world with a bunch of Mexican theater gypsies.
And uh, and then you land in Los Angeles? How
(32:30):
does it happen?
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I made the move to LA in July of nineteen
seventy eight with that without knowing anybody. I didn't have
an agent, I didn't know anybody. And then I went
to David Alexander's Acting Academy and that's where I met
an actor, Peperna.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Oh wow, yeah, legend.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yes, and Pepe had been in the workshop of zoot Suit,
written and directed by Luisoldez, and he told me that
he had just done that workshop production and they were
probably going to do it again, so there were going
to be some roles available. And most people are too
young to recall that at that time in nineteen seventy eight,
(33:12):
there were answering services, real people answering the phone for
you and taking messages. So with encouragement from the very
few people that I knew, including Pepe, I went to
an audition at the Marketeper Forum, and I reacquainted with Louise.
And after my audition, I went home and for the
(33:33):
weekend I went back up to San Jose to visit family.
When I got back, called in the answering service and
the person said, yeah, you got a message. They said, oh, yes,
Louis has been waiting for you to call. And so
that's how I got my first job in LA.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
So your first job in LA was Zutsuit.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Was zut Suit. So I moved here in July, auditioned,
and in August I was working already and the play
ran successfully for a year, So I had work for
a year, which time I was able to secure an agent,
and my first TV job was on The Incredible Hulk.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
So for the for the few maniacs that actually listened
to every single episode of this podcast, zut Suit is
like this.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
It's like a ghost that haunts us.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Like I can't tell you how many actors you know,
obviously Louise, but like every actor either in season one
and season two either saw zoot Suit and that inspired
them to become actors. Were in a production of Zutsuit,
and that was like their break into Hollywood or Louise's case,
(34:38):
just made zoot Suit.
Speaker 6 (34:40):
You know it's the Blood and blood Out or American
Beer of its time.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
That's yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Well, I mean, honestly though, I don't know if those
I don't know if you could cast Blood and blood
Out or American Me if Zootsuit hadn't done what it
did because he sort of needed like it created a
little army of actors those roles.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
That connection being I we're always kidding each other about it.
Santana and Montana, right, and both of us played leads
in zoot Suit.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, ha ha ha.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yes, they played the same characters and both movies were
so similar except for those actual real life murders that happened.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
AnyWho, here's a commercial.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Break, welcome back to More of Than Movie and my
guest Endrique Castillo, who was about to tell us how
he went from black box thespian to playing a notorious gangster.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
So finally, I mean, how does Blood and Blood Out
happen for you?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Well, they were just like anything else. I went an audition,
so I was called in for the audition, and I
was probably the last person to come in for the audition.
They had already cast all of the other on the leaders.
And so I went into the audition and I sat
across like this from the casting director, and the casting
director was kind of taking minimal interest in me, and
(36:14):
he asked me if I had a photograph that, you know,
that I could leave. And I had a portfolio actually,
and I had a series of pictures in there, and
one of the pictures he looked at it and he said,
who's that And I said, that's me, and he said,
this is you. And what it was was I had
grown my beard and shaved it, trimmed it, you know,
(36:35):
like this, with a goatee and kind of thin lines,
thin lines, and I had been working out for quite
a while. I was wearing a slingshot T shirt for
the picture, and then I had a black sash that
I put around and I took the picture profile and
so I looked a lot more muscular than I really am.
(36:57):
And so he looked at the picture and he said
this is you and I said yeah. He said, hold
on a minute, and then he went and when he
came back, Taylor was with him. Wow, And Taylor held
out the picture and he said, this is really you
and I said yes. He said Okay, I'm going to
make your life difficult. I'm going to give you six
(37:18):
scenes and I want you to memorize them because you're
doing a screen test tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Holy shit.
Speaker 6 (37:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
So I went home and you know, prepared. Yeah, came in.
They had kind of like a cell. First, we did
the Onda scene where I have to stop the meeting
because it's getting out of control, and so as the
guys were getting amped up, I stopped it by saying,
I don't even remember what I said, but I used
(37:45):
some callo and then I started talking about pre Columbian culture.
So then we finished that scene, and then Taylor had
me do the scene with Meeklo where I tell him
and he brought me aside.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And he said, is that Damian Choppa.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
This is Damien Choppa. Yes, he's already been cast. And
he said to me, I want to know what this
kid has inside of him, So do me a favor,
get me something out of him. And so as we
were doing the scene dialogue verbatim, all of a sudden,
when he got to feeling sorry for himself, I literally
(38:25):
grabbed him and I slapped him, actually slapped him in
the audition, and I could see he turned literally red
beat red, and he wanted to kill me, but he didn't.
He stayed in character and we continued with the scene.
Then afterwards Taylor called cut and I went over and
(38:46):
he said, thank you. That's what I wanted to see.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
But wait, did anybody explain to Damien that Taylor told
you no?
Speaker 1 (38:52):
No, but fuck no? But then later on Damien said
what you did? He said, thank you because I really
need that. He said, I wanted to beat the shit
out of you, but it's gonna say and he probably
could have you.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
So so much of that part his arc really, or
his his drive, is around the idea of elevating Damien
Choppa's character, building him up, or like it's like, you
have this power in you to be this person that's
so much greater than the person you are, and so
much of that is communicated through the language of Chicanismo,
(39:29):
la rasa and unifying black and brown power together. Correct
was that in the script because it sounds that's so
much of your background that I imagine you were able
to at least, you know, show that that lived inside
you and was something you could kind of play with.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yes, again, it's very familiar to my experience in both
my professional and my personal life. Taylor was very clear
about the freedom that he was giving us to expe
and if need be, to improvise. He said, you guys
know this better than I do, so don't be afraid
(40:08):
to push it.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
So you would do these takes, and he knew what
he wanted, but he would let you fill even the
language you were able to sort of make your own.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
And not only that, he's a great observer of the actor.
He doesn't force you into doing what he wants. He
allows you the room to do what you need to
do in order for him to get what he wants.
Let me put it this way, he gets what he needs.
Once he gets what he needs, then he can get
(40:38):
what he wants.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, and how much of that I'm trying to sort
of like Gage's these great scenes where you're like, you know,
I think even the first scene where you meet Damian
Choppa's character and they bring him into your cell, you know,
which is like heavily guarded, and you start talking to
him about like the origin of sort of Latini DoD
(41:02):
and he, you know, he's playing this character that's torn
between his Latin identity. He's not really torn. He wants
to identify with his Latin side, but.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
People keep pulling him in both.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Directions and trying to force him to be white because
that's the color.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Of his skin.
Speaker 6 (41:17):
That's where the power is, and that's.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Where the existing power is.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And so you film that in a prison, sunking ten,
sunking thin, saying Quentin, was I mean scary, not scary?
How'd you feel.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
I've never been in a prison. I've I've visited jails,
but I've never been in a working prison at that level.
So the choice to go there taking a role was
obviously considering that, and I asked myself, do I want
to put myself through that? And I couldn't think about
it too long or I would have said no. So
(41:57):
once I agreed to do the problem, I said, whatever
happens is going to happen. And so my first experience
going there was looming over the bay is this monolithic
structure with iron and brick and weapons and people that
you know have thousand yard stairs and walking through the
(42:22):
first iron door into a sally port with bulletproof glass
facing another iron door, and they hand you the piece
of paper where you basically sign your life away that
says that you understand that if you were taking hostage,
that the authorities will do nothing to secure your release,
(42:42):
so there's nothing you can do once you sign that.
And I signed it, and the next door open and
there I am inside.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Did they have you wear vests like to distinguish you.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
The first time I walked in there, I walked in
as a civilian because we were scouting the location prior
to filming. Just before filming, we walked the lower yard,
the upper yard. We looked at themselves, and then we
leughed and the next time I went to work and
right away we went through a process of orientation with
(43:15):
the inmates, and Taylor was very deliberate about the approach
because we understand and he understands that there is a
regional conflict ongoing between North and South correct distinguished by
colors red and blue. So he brought us into this
(43:37):
room and all the inmates that were going to be
our individual a leader's click were on the one side
of the room and we were on the other. Taylor
got on top of a chair. He's wearing his usual
red pullover shirt and he says to them, I know
that you guys have an issue with color, and let
(43:59):
me explain to you why I wear red, he said.
When I make a movie, nobody on the set gets
to wear red but me, because whenever anybody comes to
the set and they're looking for the director, they say
the guy in red. I'm not doing it to offend anybody,
and I'm not doing it to show you off or anything.
(44:21):
This is the way I work, and if you have
a problem with that, you know that's not gonna stop
me from doing what I normally do. So basically he
earned their respect by being completely open about it.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Transparent but not completely transparent.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
But not differential. Yes he was he was directing. Yeah,
he was the director, and everybody was secure in the
outcome of it because nothing happened. Nobody said anything, nobody
said shook their head. I was watching the inmates and
all of them just basically just tuned in to it,
(45:00):
he was saying, And it was okay. I even saw
a couple of knots even there. Did you interact with
any of the inmates eventually? Yes, we were told we
were not allowed to give them anything, a cookie, a gum,
or anything at all. It's another world from the outside
and there's only certain things that keep you alive in there.
(45:20):
And one of them is respect. That's the ultimate currency
is respect. And it's either explained to you when you
talk with liaisons that are either part of them or
have been assigned by their administration, and also sometimes by
interaction with the inmates themselves. One incident in particular that
(45:44):
I recall was we went to work, and again, everything
that goes in and out of that prison has to
be counted. Every screwdriver, every makeup brush, everything has to
be counted in and it has to be counted out.
It's got to be accounted for, so time consuming, we
were limited by time there. It's a working prison. They
(46:07):
have their counts every so often, and if anything happens,
they go into lockdown, so you can't work. We walked
on the set and there was nobody around. They have
a basketball court, so two or three of us were
playing basketball. Guard comes over and he says, gentlemen, how
are you guys doing? If you notice anything strange? Is yeah,
where is everybody? Well, you know, somebody took care of
(46:29):
business and they're in lockdown, and so we don't know
how long it's gonna take, but just you know, before
warned that when the door's open, everybody's out, it's back
to normal, and someone may want to retaliate, so be aware.
Inmate comes over to us and says, if anything happens,
(46:50):
get behind us.
Speaker 6 (46:52):
They were going to protect us.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Fascinating.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
So the way you talk about character, it sounds like
you really think from the point of view of the character.
There's different schools of acting for folks who don't know.
There's people who like stay in character all the time,
and then there's people who like like the character doesn't exist,
you know.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Yeah, I mean in a lot of cases, take for example, Montana. Obviously,
my due diligence could not include being you know, murdering
somebody and being in prison now, so I had to
do a lot of reading. I had to do a
lot of a personal involvement of background, farm work or
whatnot that went into the character. I have a sister
(47:29):
who's a psychologist, and so she's helped me a lot
in terms of preparing characters and also in stuff that
I write. The psychological and the emotional aspects of the characters.
We did a numerological chart for the character. We did
an astrological chart, we did a whole psychological why did
(47:49):
he make this choice. Why did he make that choice?
That's the only thing that I have control of. Taylor
has control of everything else. But my work is the
only thing that I can control. And it doesn't matter
whether I'm working in a independent movie with no budget
or student film, or I'm working for Steven Spielberg or
(48:10):
Taylor Hackford. My work has to speak for who I am,
and that's the only thing that I can control. And
if I do my best, then I'm content. So even
in auditions, my audition could be the only time I
ever get a chance to do that role, So why
(48:30):
not do it fully?
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Correct Well, in that note, I'll just say I love
your work. I thought you did a tremendous job in
this film, and I just want to say thank you
for taking the time to be here.
Speaker 6 (48:42):
Thank you for the invitation. It's been fun.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
That's our show, Vatos Locos Forever.
Speaker 6 (48:48):
Now.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
I know if you're a fan of Blood and Blood Out,
you probably don't like narcs. But what about spies, specifically
spy kids. Next week I'll talk to the og spy
kid herself, Alexa Pinevega, and the woman behind the scenes
of the Little Blockbuster that Could Producer Elizabeth Haaviani. More
(49:12):
Than a Movie Season two was produced by Chloe Taglia
GMBE with the help of Reynolds Gutierres and Veronica Hernandez
in partnership with Iheart's Michael Dura podcast network. Hosted by
me Alex Fumetto, edited by Rose Red and Chloe Tuglia
Ganbe with the help of Cide Cavedo. Executive producers are
Carmen Gratto, Rose Red, Isaac Lee, and me Alex Flumetto.
Sound designed by Gozzalo Messi, original music by Golden Mines,
(49:36):
Darko and Ieme recorded at JTB Studios and Vaudeville Sound Our.
Executive producers at iHeart are Gazelle Bansis and Arlene Santana.
For more Michael Duda podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Taylor had me do the scene with Miklo where I
tell him and he brought me aside and.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
He said, and that is that Damien Choppa.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is Damien Choppa. Yes, he's already been cast. Yeah,
And he said to me, I want to know what
this kid has inside of him, So do me a favor,
get me something out of him. And so as we
were doing the scene dialogue verbatim, all of a sudden,
when he got to feeling sorry for himself, I literally
(00:32):
grabbed him and I slapped him, actually slapped him in
the audition.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Welcome to more than a movie, a podcast that gives
you a behind the scenes look at your favorite movies.
I'm your host, Alex Fumetro. Last season we did a
deep dive on American Met. This season, I'll focus on
a different movie. Each episode, feature interviews with the biggest actors,
writers and producers behind them and tap into the history
of Latinos in film. But last season, we did a
(01:08):
deep dive on a movie called American Me. It was
directed by Edward James Almos and it centered on a
Mexican prison gang in the Los Angeles neighborhood of Boyle Heights.
It bears a startling resemblance to a film that would
come out only one year later, Blood In Blood Out,
(01:29):
directed by Taylor Hackford. In fact, we only came to
know about the drama surrounding American me the murders of
three of the film's gang consultants because of the stories
Danny Trejo told about the movie, a movie he claims
he rejected a pardon because a leader of lat Eme
(01:50):
told him it would be a bad look. Instead, he
took the role of Geronimo in Blood and Blood Out,
and the rest is history. Nobody was killed in connection
with Blood and Blood Out because the Vatos Locos weren't
a real prison gang, and the story, while inspired by
real gang life, was fictionalized sufficiently as to not draw
(02:13):
the ire of real life gangs. Director Taylor Hackford, who
was in a previous episode of this podcast, left the
door open for us to speak to him about the movie,
but to date we haven't been able to lock him down.
Danny Trejo outright declined our multiple attempts for interview. It's
impossible to know why, but it's conceivable that it has
(02:35):
something to do with the subject of our first season.
But who we do have are two of the stars
of the movie Blood and Blood Out, Jesse Brego who
played Cruz, and Enrique Castillo, who played Montana, and to
this day, despite long acting careers, it's probably the movie
they're best known for. So we will start with the
(02:57):
man behind the troubled artist known as Cruz, the heart
and soul of this movie, and I'll let him introduce
himself personally. If I asked who is Jesse Barrego, what
would the answer be?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
That's a good question. The chameleon.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
I was once called the most versatile actor of our time.
When that time was, I don't know, but but you
know Jesse Borego, the performer, Jesse Borego, the advocate for
cultural authenticity, Jesse Borego, you know, the uh.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
The storyteller. So I think that's how people know me.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
I started in the theater in Letatro Delvarrio with the Chicanos,
was raised in the Chicano culture, you know, developed my
indigenous identity, and above all, tried to exemplify it in
all the characters that I played.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
People ask me why did Gruse in pat people so much?
And I tell him because as an artist, as an actor,
I was at the top of my gay. Taylor knew
me from the auditions at La Bamba and he approached
me and said, hey, we're doing this film blood and
blood Out. You need to be in it and you
need to help me cast the Vatos locals. So I
took that very seriously as the de facto mascot of
(04:19):
the film. And I really felt that a lot of
the passion that we put in it as artists, between
all of us, from top to bottom, from Taylor to
Jimmy Baka to the performers, we really.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Put all of that love of our kultura in there.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
And I think that's how people recognize me as a
champion of the kudua.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Well yeah, and people may not realize just what a
big role you played in whatever you want to call it.
The authenticity, the very similitude of those guys, like why
they felt like they were from where they were from.
You know, this is the thirtieth anniversary year of the
film's premiere, and in the La Times profile recently written
(05:00):
about the film, Benjamin Brack gives you a lot of love.
He says, you know, if I attained any degree of
success in my portrayal within this film, A great deal
of the credit has to go to what I learned
from Jesse Borego, not only about the notion of God nalismo,
but about what it means to be a true and
giving artist as an actor.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
What do you think about that?
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
That man always had that.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
And you know, one of the things we did when
Taylor taxed me with finding about those locals is we
had a little theater camp. The auditions were like theater
and I told Taylor, I said, look, I'm gonna be down.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I'm going to be in the watrios.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
So if these actors can't hang, you're gonna know right away,
right basically trial by fire, Chicano fire, right, And so
I threw slang at them.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I threw all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
And one of the things that really impressed me about
Benjon is not only his ability to transform himself as
an actor, but also to be able to find that
authentic root of what that character is. And I thought
he did that incredibly well in Bacco. And I'm always
impressed by the performances, but I really really felt that
(06:09):
you could see Benjamin's artistry. I mean, Bacco was such
an immersive character and it literally like the Damien character
had to go night and day. So I think between
the three of us, we really tried to not only
be authentic to what these characters were, but we tried
to do the best job that we could as performers
and as actors.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Maybe you can clarify this a little bit, Jesse, but
you were saying, like, Taylor put you in charge of
sort of vetting the Vatos Locos as an actor, like
that's unusual.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
How does that work?
Speaker 4 (06:39):
Taylor Hatford understood that I was more than just a
one dimensional film actor. You know, he knew me from
my work on television, but he also knew that I
was theatrically trained. He also knew that I was culturally authentic,
and so I think for him it was important not
only with the writer Jimmy Santiago Baka being truly Chicano
(07:00):
on putting his experience in the script. He needed an
anchor for the performances, and I think he trusted me
with that. And he also knew that I was a
filmmaker and that I understood the process.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I understood the big picture, right, I.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Couldn't really help him in a lot of the work
that he was going to have to do at San
Quentin and with Damien. But he knew that in terms
of the Vatos locos, that I could really create some
sort of wonderful synergy between the three of us, and
that was the innocence that we were going to start
to break throughout the rest of the film. I always
(07:36):
tell the story that we stayed, you know that he
had the actor stay in the neighborhood city terrorist neighborhood,
what the Garrity Loma Boys. So we were there with
with one of the Glicas of East La one of
the well known ones, and they were so wonderful to us.
They took care of us. They were like our de
facto bodyguards. Some of the younger ones became extras in
(07:57):
the film. But by staying with them those few weeks,
I was able to focus, you know, Benjamin and Damien
and me into this kind of a camaraderie that people
would believe that we grew up together, but that we
also grew up Chicano's you know that we grew up
in this East La specific East Loast neighborhood. So I
(08:18):
think for me it was an honor. And like I said,
I knew Taylor, so I was very excited about making
his vision come to fruition. And I thought that he
was very very smart in who he was unifying with
him in this vision. And I thought that Jimmy Santiago
Baca as a writer, was giving us calling Chicano Shakespeare right,
(08:38):
that he was writing Chicano Shakespeare. So it was wonderful
to be able to take this lingo, take the slang
authenticated with my boys, with my actors, and create, you know,
the true root of Vatos Locals, which was that innocence.
And I really felt that that's what I was going
to be able to bring to it through the artistry,
right because I was the cultured one, right, I was
(08:58):
the artist. But I was also the one that constantly
was in danger of being eliminated because I wasn't a fighter,
because I wasn't faco, because I didn't have this chip
on my shoulder like Niklo. And so I think, then
when you see his tragic fall Feetl's tragic fall, it
speaks a lot to an experience that I know because
(09:19):
it happened in my family of art and culture and love,
in someone from the Vrio being totally destroyed by the
societal pressures. And I think that was the theme that
we wanted to touch on before Damien went into prison,
because then you understand why that happens and why the
syndicates are formed, and why there's this kind of dark
(09:41):
side to our Chicano culture.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
You know.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
See, this is one of the things I love about
about this movie and about the cast that's involved. You know,
for most people that you watched this movie and you're like,
this is this is like a boys in the Hood
kind of movie, Like, you know, there's a bunch of gangsters,
da da da. There is this weaving of this social
consciousness throughout him.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
I think that that's the dilemma of urbanized Chicano culture
is that, you know, we have all of these influences
in these traditions that come from our Mexicanidad, that comes
from our Mexican American roots growing up in the border
and in these states that were our culture. So there's
this kind of unspoken tragedy that we're still living as
(10:23):
second class citizens in our land. Right it was ours
as indigenous people, but then as as Espanos and then
as Mexicanos. And I think when you see the chip
on the shoulder that a lot of these Vatos have
in their cultural pride, right, because.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
There is a kind of a chip on the shoulder. Man.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
There's a kind of an edge to how we carry
our culture and our pride, and that's because we understand
that we have not been honored and that our contributions
have not been shared and treasured the way that other
cultures have in this side of the border. So, you know,
it was something that I think America has constantly struggled with,
(11:03):
and we as Chicano's, we carry that with us. And
so when they see that in our culture and our
way of being, it rubs them wrong. You know, there
is no justification of Chicano culture, right. We did it
first in the film. Taylor said this is something that
needs to be talked about, and so I think he
knew that we as actors, me geeky, you know, all
(11:23):
of us were going to bring that unspoken history into
our characters.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And the other thing that was beautiful about Jimmy Bada
and Taylor Hackford is they allowed those of us that
were the real Chicanos to improvise. So if we felt
that there was an unspoken something, they allowed us to
elaborate on that and put it into the words of
our character appropriately, and I thought that was so giving
as artists, especially in a film world where everything's like,
(11:52):
don't do this, don't do that, don't cross that line.
The collaborative effort really allowed us as Chicano actors to
exemplify these characters and to bring the beauty and the
joy and the honor of the Chicano culture, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And I think that's why it's over thirty years.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
There were even scenes that were rewritten because of that
kind of deference or that kind of inclusion.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Can you talk a little bit about how things were
kind of like changed on the fly in order to
make the film feel more authentic to the Chicano experience.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Well, that speaks to the artistry of Jimmy Santiago Baka
as the writer, but also everybody that Taylor chose.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
To collaborate with him in this vision.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
You know, he knew that if he got the right
artists in the right positions that at some point, if
something there was a color that was missing, if there
was a moment, if there was something that needed to
be said, that they were going to allow for that
that they were going to really really trust our instincts.
And that's why I tell you, you know, I'll praise and
honor to Taylor because when he approached me, that was
(12:56):
one of the things that he really made clear. He goes, look,
I'm gonna trust you on this. So when we go
to these auditions and we look for these vato locos,
I want you to really really really try to see
who connects with you, and from there really try to
find those artists that are going to honor these characters
in this story. And so I think it was the
(13:16):
same way all the way through the line. They trusted
me with that, they trusted a lot of the artists
that he put in those positions to authenticate that. And
I think that beauty of it. And you know, Taylor
always talks about it. You know, he says it's one
of the best films he ever made, and yet it's
one of the least successful of his films because of
the backup of our parents' studio company.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I mean, part of the reason it wasn't more of
a runaway success was because of the La riots, right,
I mean, the La riots happened in nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
I don't think that would have made a difference I
really do think that the you know it was it
was what you call the perfect storm.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Right.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
You had had the controversy with the other film, American
Me First, Yeah, which had released a year earlier. You
had the delay right as Taylor was trying to convince
you know, they talk about this mythical five hour cut.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Have you ever heard about that? No, tell me about it.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
There's apparently a five hour cut Taylor had first screened
to Disney, right because he had such dude, he had
ten years of these guys' lives, so he had three
movies in this one. But really what Taylor was trying
to do was Godfather one and Godfather two. We always
had that plan in mind. It was such a huge
story that it made sense. Well, Taylor had pretty much
(14:33):
shot enough for two films. But as the controversy with
the other films started to happen, as they started to
back off of it, as we saw the Rodney King
trial finishing up, there was this unease in la Well,
with all of that happening, Taylor screened this five hour
version for the studio. He wanted to convince them that
(14:55):
he had enough for two. It was there they of course,
at that point said, look, we don't even know I'm
to put out one, And at that point he realized
that he was going to have to try and finish
the one. So that's at the point that they rethought
it and said, look, well we have to finish the one.
Because they'd been screening it for six months, previewing it
(15:17):
with different people, we'd already gone through a press junket,
and so I think they kind of realized that the
film was open ended because they wanted to lead to
part two. So at that point they realized, well, should
anything happen, we need to know that we have a film.
So at that point they rewrote the end. They came
back six months later and said, look, we're going to
(15:38):
reshoot the end of the film.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
And I thought it was brilliant.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
The end of the film being your scene with Benjamin Bratt.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
With Benjamin with the river.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
And I think at that point Taylor realized, Okay, if
we're not going to do a part two, then we
really have to make sure that part one or.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
The film ends right.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
And so I think at that point Jimmy went back
retool the scene, same setup, but now you have the
development of the argument between Grucito and Baco. And when
you watch that scene and you watch this man who
has built his entire identity on this macho character that
(16:20):
never gives in actually break down because he realizes that
he caused all of that. It is such a poignant
moment and it just hmm, it just cleans up this
beautiful film. And that's why they love it. And you know,
again the brilliance of Jimmy to be able to take
that original scene and retool it in such a beautiful,
(16:42):
perfect way. We were able to end this incredible film
and our incredible performances in this way. It just speaks
again to the brilliance and the synergy of that team
that Tator Hackford brought together.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
You know, there is a brilliant synergy between this act
that you're about to hear and my bank account.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
So please listen. At point five X, we'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Welcome back to More than a movie. I am not
more than a host, Alex Fumeto. We're back with Jesse Borego,
who is telling us what it was like behind the
scenes working on a movie with a bunch of Latino
guys back in the early nineties, something that is rare
even today. You know, one thing I noticed at the
end of the movie. It is sad, but then you
(17:41):
start sort of like messing with him about like El gayoneuro,
and it's like very fun like you're very funny. Like
it's a very short segment, but you're very funny in
that last minute. And it made me go, you know,
made me think, like, is this kind of what it
was like behind the scenes, Like obviously you were dealing
with heavy subject and actress have to prepare and all
that stuff, but like, what was some of the camaraderie
(18:04):
like behind the scenes of making the movie, Because it's
not a lot of times that a bunch of young
Latino dudes, you know, get to all hang out together
on set. Like, if that's your career, you're very lucky. Absolutely,
So I'm wondering, like, were you all just fucking with
each other all the time or what was that like.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
All the time?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
We had to keep each other in the group, you know,
And that was great about the ensemble cast when we
did the auditions, especially when they started bringing in the
Vatos locals and more actors to kind of audition for
the about the local parts in a minute by length
they walked in I knew he was right right, and
me and him started spitting in Chicano slang right away,
So there was a kind of an understanding there of
(18:43):
who we were. And then you bring in a brilliant
actor like Ray mcruse whose uncles are from that scene,
and he was able to channel a lot of that
into his true characters. Now you've got this wonderful you know,
this wonderful ensemble cast. And so felt that we had
to constantly push envelope and push each other. So we
(19:04):
were always playing jokes on each other. And once we
got going and Benjamin and Damien caught on, I think
it really gave them a very authentic route to start
to work their particular plot journeys on and I think
hanging out at that neighborhood in Garrity Loma, the beautiful
(19:25):
Faminia that took care of us there.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I kept telling this to the actors. I go, look
look around, Listen, Listen to the way they're talking, Listen
to their slang. Right, this is modern East Laws in
the nineties, but they've retained a lot of the rhythms. Man,
they've retained a lot of the slang of the palon.
So don't be afraid to talk to them, you know,
relate to them, ask them questions, and more than anything,
(19:48):
I thought that Benjamin really embraced that. I remember the
first weekend we were there.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Raymond right came up to us and said, hey, listen,
we have a gang youth services as handing out Easter
baskets down at the local park Hazard Park. You think
the actors want to go down there and hand them out?
And I looked at the other actors and I said,
this is great. It's a great opportunity. One the neighborhood's
going to see us, so they're going to see us
hanging around here for a few weeks. I go, second,
(20:15):
I want you guys to pay attention. You know, this
is actor one oh one right here. The Latos. They're
slang almost almost eMTA. So I think that and Benjamin
wound up hanging out all day all night. He was
there as with the Vatos, trying to absorb them, trying
to figure out their slang, asking questions. You know, this
is the work that an actor really really loves. But
(20:37):
when you embrace it like that, you know you're showing
love for the kultura. You're showing love for the familia. So,
as an actor, a chance to portray these characters that.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You grew up around, that you like idolized, right for better,
for worse.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Right.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Yeah, Benjamin was always worried about that because when Taylor
wanted him to take his character all the way to
the deal side, you know, Benjamin had a really hard
time with it. He goes, no, you know this, this
is such a wonderful, authentic character. But then he realized,
as a storyteller and as an actor, oh, I get it,
he needs to.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Go all the way that way, right.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
And then you come back and you hear those beautiful
lines that Jimmy wrote for him that he says, you
don't know anything about being Chicano. You know, it's our
people out there struggling, surviving, working. That's what being Tekano
is about. And I'm like, bro, you're the Chicano in
this movie, homie. So I think even though he's beeduan No,
even though you know he's multicultural, you know, for him,
(21:38):
it was important to be authentic. For him, it was
important to have a cultural identity in Baco that he
could really touch on. You know, he should have been
nominated if that would have been a studio film. He
would have been right up there in the nomination. We
were supposed to win awards. From what I know of
the business, I knew what was going to get awards,
and I saw the energy. I saw the pedigree right
(22:00):
from Taylor Hackford all the way on down. So I
just saw so many awards and nominations. All we needed
to do was have that great couple of weeks that
these studios judge everything by right.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And we were headed that way. And what do you
think what got in the way. Two things happened.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
The other film beat us to the punch, and I
think it was correct for Taylor to say, we're not ready,
So we're not going to get into this competition about
which one is better. They're two different films, same kind
of theme, two different films. Let them have their day.
We were there at the same time. With that delay,
(22:40):
all the bad publicity of the reaction right to the
other film boom. Then that's when Eisner started to get scared.
Then you have all this unrest, then you have the riots,
and I think at that point they were already backing
off finishing the second part. They were already backing off
the project itself, and I think once that happened, they
(23:03):
said it's going straight to VHS, is what they told me.
And at that point Taylor had to start fighting for
the theatrical release that they had promised him. So I
can't imagine that Taylor didn't ream them a couple of times,
because that's how much and passionate he was about this film.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I mean, he was the de facto general.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
So always whenever we didn't we doubted ourselves.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
We looked up.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
You know, Carlos Carrasco, who played Popeye, tells this incredible
story about when they went to.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
San Quentin to film.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
He told us that Taylor had had these uh you know,
these these juntas with all of the actors and said,
look and a stick together all this stuff. Well, when
they got there, with all of the maximum security that
they had to go through, they got into the prison
and the first scene that they're going to film is
the big scene with all of the inmates at the cafeteria.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
That's the first thing filming. So they're looking around going,
oh my god, he goes.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
So there we were all twelve of us clicking together
all of the talks that we'd had, all the tutorials,
went out the window and we're sitting there because the
cacophony was unreal. He says, the cacophony you could not
hear yourself talking to the person in front of you,
and that was standard, right, he goes, So we did
not know how we were going to start filming because
(24:24):
it was just so crazy. Well, next thing you know,
Taylor gets up and without a bullharn starts letting everyone know,
pay attention. Everybody into director mode with a director voice,
and Carlos goes, it was amazing. But all of these inmates,
who were not actors, all of the sudden became quiet actors,
(24:44):
paying attention to their director. He goes, that's when we
knew we had it. That's when we knew that Mayestro
had our back and Metal Metal and then we were
able to do our work, which was to become these characters,
which was to become to make it seem like we
were raised in in San Quentin. So that story tells
you the type of leadership that we had, and I
(25:05):
think Taylor passed that on.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
You know, we were his captains. He was the general.
We were his captains.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
What's the deal with the name change? Blood and Blood
out Bound by honor. Was that part of this controversy
around like the release of the film.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
So we had done the press junket for about three
months as Blood and Blood Out. So we had been
promoting this film as Blood and Blood Out right about
the time that all this controversy came up, and we
were going to try and screen and we were waiting
to hear when when when Taylor comes up to me
and says, oh, by the way, we're changing the title.
And I said what, I go, Taylor, you realize we've
(25:40):
been promoting its one day. He goes, I know, he goes,
but the only way they're going to let me have
a theatrical is if we changed the name. And he
told me the name truthfully, I said, Taylor, it sounds
like a military film, right, and he goes, yeah. But
out of all the titles, this is the only one
that we could pull off, he said, And don't worry.
Once we get it out to the audience, name will
go back. And sure enough, when it went back to VHS,
(26:03):
they changed it back to Blood and Blood Out.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Interesting, huh.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Interesting that they didn't want the Tikano audience to go
to the theater and make it a success, but they
did want them to rent it on VHS.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
I've heard people say that this is like the most
people always make claims like this, but that this is
one of the most pirated movies of all time, basically
because in the hood they would just be copying VHS's
of this thing just to get their hands on it.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
When I see Latin American fans and they hear my voice,
it blows them away. They go, wow, this film is
thirty years old. I'm in the middle of the hills
of Michwa Khan and this man knows my face, my voice,
my performance and is excited by it. We didn't win
the awards, but the award I get is that Mai
Rasa got to see it, Miudura got to.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Enjoy it, and the world gets to share it.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
And I think that's the best giveaway I think about
about this film is that it did survive, you know,
the attempt to squash it. It did survive the attempt
to make it inactive. And I think that all of
that is that passion that we put into it. There
was no way that that seed was not going to
sprout and grow and flower. No matter how much dirt
(27:16):
they put on it. So I think that's really the
best takeaway of Blood and Blood Out is that more than.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Thirty years, you're talking about generations.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Well, Jesse Boreo, I think that's a great place to end.
I really want to thank you for being here and
honoring this film on its thirtieth anniversary year. Man, So
congratulations and I wish you even more success.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Thank you, brother, and thanks for supporting us all these years.
Batos Locals Forever.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
So now you've met the artist behind the artist known
as Cruz. But no Blood and Blood Out episode would
be complete without meeting the leader of Launda, the one
they call Montana, who, as it turns out, wasn't so
much a real gangster as a real thespian. Let me
introduce them to you. More than a movie is really
(28:09):
a podcast about not just like the behind the scenes
of filmmaking, but like what it was like to live
making these movies right and the lives behind the movies themselves.
To put people kind of in the shoes of what
it was like to be there before you made a
l Norte or before you made Bound by Honor, Blood
and Blood Out, before you made me Familia, right. But
(28:31):
in order to do that, let's start at the beginning. So,
Endrica Castillo, why don't you tell our audience who is
Endrica Castillo.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I grew up as a farm worker. I grew up
in a border town, Calexico, California, which is unique because
it's a combination of two words, right, California and Mexico Calexico, Yeah,
and on the on the on the Mexican side is
MEXICALI Mexico, Mexico, inc. So I basically grew up in
(29:03):
a lower class family. You know, we all had to
work for a living as families in the summers. My
father lived his life as a farm worker. I worked
with him in the fields orchards from the time I
could walk to my sophomore year at UC Berkeley, which
is where I met Louise Bildez, who created a tetro
(29:26):
campasino and that led me on the course to bring
me to La.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
I'd love to know you know, you meet Louise. I'd
love to know what your experience was like working with
the Atra Campecino.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Well, it was incredible. I met Louise when I was
a student at Berkeley and I had wanted to consider
having a career as an actor in LA and a
counselor in the department told me that somebody was coming
to teach theater who had connections with Hollywood, and that
(29:56):
person turned out to be Louis by this and we
it off right away. I mean it was not like
a professor and student. We were more like friends.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
How old around was Louis at that time? Had he
had already done he hadn't done Zutsuit the movie yet,
or had not?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
No, no, This was the early stages of the move
that he made from de Leno to San Juan Bautista,
and there was a complex there with a huge patio
and there was a little, a very small theater that
they had there. So he took over that complex from
the owner. I believe it was like nineteen sixty nine,
(30:34):
and then he invited people from different tatros that were
created across the country to come and workshop in San
Juan Bautista and we created a production of which was
the original Los Corridos that eventually ended up on PBS,
with Linda Ronstad and Dannie Waldess's brother playing music. We
did a lot of improvisation and Louis created several pieces
(30:58):
out of it, and then we brought that productuction to
Los Angeles and as a resulted won La Drama Critics Award.
And actually that was my first offer from Hollywood, which
we eventually ended up turning down because of course we
didn't want to have anything.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
To do with howe.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
What was the offer as it was told to me,
because I was not there when it was presented. It
was producers from Paramount Studios that come to see the production,
and they came backstage and they asked for me. And
they were doing a production called The New Centurions by
Joseph Wambau and it starts Stacy Keach I believe, and
(31:34):
the role was the role of a police officer that
ended up actually being cast with Eric Estrada, No Amazing,
And of course he went and springboarded onto Chips probably
from there.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I mean, that's such an interesting alternate dimension where you
make one different choice and you are a guy from Chips.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
It's like a total totally different career. Could you could
have been dos bohensum Camino?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Right?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
The thing was at that time about Hollywood, I had
a chip on my shoulder like this.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, so talk to me about the transition to LA
How do you go from this? You know, I'm sort
of traveling the world with a bunch of wonderful, eccentric
theater artists who had actually Mexican gypsy I love that,
traveling the world with a bunch of Mexican theater gypsies.
And uh, and then you land in Los Angeles? How
(32:30):
does it happen?
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I made the move to LA in July of nineteen
seventy eight with that without knowing anybody. I didn't have
an agent, I didn't know anybody. And then I went
to David Alexander's Acting Academy and that's where I met
an actor, Peperna.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Oh wow, yeah, legend.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yes, and Pepe had been in the workshop of zoot Suit,
written and directed by Luisoldez, and he told me that
he had just done that workshop production and they were
probably going to do it again, so there were going
to be some roles available. And most people are too
young to recall that at that time in nineteen seventy eight,
(33:12):
there were answering services, real people answering the phone for
you and taking messages. So with encouragement from the very
few people that I knew, including Pepe, I went to
an audition at the Marketeper Forum, and I reacquainted with Louise.
And after my audition, I went home and for the
(33:33):
weekend I went back up to San Jose to visit family.
When I got back, called in the answering service and
the person said, yeah, you got a message. They said, oh, yes,
Louis has been waiting for you to call. And so
that's how I got my first job in LA.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
So your first job in LA was Zutsuit.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Was zut Suit. So I moved here in July, auditioned,
and in August I was working already and the play
ran successfully for a year, So I had work for
a year, which time I was able to secure an agent,
and my first TV job was on The Incredible Hulk.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
So for the for the few maniacs that actually listened
to every single episode of this podcast, zut Suit is
like this.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
It's like a ghost that haunts us.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Like I can't tell you how many actors you know,
obviously Louise, but like every actor either in season one
and season two either saw zoot Suit and that inspired
them to become actors. Were in a production of Zutsuit,
and that was like their break into Hollywood or Louise's case,
(34:38):
just made zoot Suit.
Speaker 6 (34:40):
You know it's the Blood and blood Out or American
Beer of its time.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
That's yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Well, I mean, honestly though, I don't know if those
I don't know if you could cast Blood and blood
Out or American Me if Zootsuit hadn't done what it
did because he sort of needed like it created a
little army of actors those roles.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
That connection being I we're always kidding each other about it.
Santana and Montana, right, and both of us played leads
in zoot Suit.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, ha ha ha.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yes, they played the same characters and both movies were
so similar except for those actual real life murders that happened.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
AnyWho, here's a commercial.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Break, welcome back to More of Than Movie and my
guest Endrique Castillo, who was about to tell us how
he went from black box thespian to playing a notorious gangster.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
So finally, I mean, how does Blood and Blood Out
happen for you?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Well, they were just like anything else. I went an audition,
so I was called in for the audition, and I
was probably the last person to come in for the audition.
They had already cast all of the other on the leaders.
And so I went into the audition and I sat
across like this from the casting director, and the casting
director was kind of taking minimal interest in me, and
(36:14):
he asked me if I had a photograph that, you know,
that I could leave. And I had a portfolio actually,
and I had a series of pictures in there, and
one of the pictures he looked at it and he said,
who's that And I said, that's me, and he said,
this is you. And what it was was I had
grown my beard and shaved it, trimmed it, you know,
(36:35):
like this, with a goatee and kind of thin lines,
thin lines, and I had been working out for quite
a while. I was wearing a slingshot T shirt for
the picture, and then I had a black sash that
I put around and I took the picture profile and
so I looked a lot more muscular than I really am.
(36:57):
And so he looked at the picture and he said
this is you and I said yeah. He said, hold
on a minute, and then he went and when he
came back, Taylor was with him. Wow, And Taylor held
out the picture and he said, this is really you
and I said yes. He said Okay, I'm going to
make your life difficult. I'm going to give you six
(37:18):
scenes and I want you to memorize them because you're
doing a screen test tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Holy shit.
Speaker 6 (37:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
So I went home and you know, prepared. Yeah, came in.
They had kind of like a cell. First, we did
the Onda scene where I have to stop the meeting
because it's getting out of control, and so as the
guys were getting amped up, I stopped it by saying,
I don't even remember what I said, but I used
(37:45):
some callo and then I started talking about pre Columbian culture.
So then we finished that scene, and then Taylor had
me do the scene with Meeklo where I tell him
and he brought me aside.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And he said, is that Damian Choppa.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
This is Damien Choppa. Yes, he's already been cast. And
he said to me, I want to know what this
kid has inside of him, So do me a favor,
get me something out of him. And so as we
were doing the scene dialogue verbatim, all of a sudden,
when he got to feeling sorry for himself, I literally
(38:25):
grabbed him and I slapped him, actually slapped him in
the audition, and I could see he turned literally red
beat red, and he wanted to kill me, but he didn't.
He stayed in character and we continued with the scene.
Then afterwards Taylor called cut and I went over and
(38:46):
he said, thank you. That's what I wanted to see.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
But wait, did anybody explain to Damien that Taylor told
you no?
Speaker 1 (38:52):
No, but fuck no? But then later on Damien said
what you did? He said, thank you because I really
need that. He said, I wanted to beat the shit
out of you, but it's gonna say and he probably
could have you.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
So so much of that part his arc really, or
his his drive, is around the idea of elevating Damien
Choppa's character, building him up, or like it's like, you
have this power in you to be this person that's
so much greater than the person you are, and so
much of that is communicated through the language of Chicanismo,
(39:29):
la rasa and unifying black and brown power together. Correct
was that in the script because it sounds that's so
much of your background that I imagine you were able
to at least, you know, show that that lived inside
you and was something you could kind of play with.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yes, again, it's very familiar to my experience in both
my professional and my personal life. Taylor was very clear
about the freedom that he was giving us to expe
and if need be, to improvise. He said, you guys
know this better than I do, so don't be afraid
(40:08):
to push it.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
So you would do these takes, and he knew what
he wanted, but he would let you fill even the
language you were able to sort of make your own.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
And not only that, he's a great observer of the actor.
He doesn't force you into doing what he wants. He
allows you the room to do what you need to
do in order for him to get what he wants.
Let me put it this way, he gets what he needs.
Once he gets what he needs, then he can get
(40:38):
what he wants.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, and how much of that I'm trying to sort
of like Gage's these great scenes where you're like, you know,
I think even the first scene where you meet Damian
Choppa's character and they bring him into your cell, you know,
which is like heavily guarded, and you start talking to
him about like the origin of sort of Latini DoD
(41:02):
and he, you know, he's playing this character that's torn
between his Latin identity. He's not really torn. He wants
to identify with his Latin side, but.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
People keep pulling him in both.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Directions and trying to force him to be white because
that's the color.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Of his skin.
Speaker 6 (41:17):
That's where the power is, and that's.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Where the existing power is.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And so you film that in a prison, sunking ten,
sunking thin, saying Quentin, was I mean scary, not scary?
How'd you feel.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
I've never been in a prison. I've I've visited jails,
but I've never been in a working prison at that level.
So the choice to go there taking a role was
obviously considering that, and I asked myself, do I want
to put myself through that? And I couldn't think about
it too long or I would have said no. So
(41:57):
once I agreed to do the problem, I said, whatever
happens is going to happen. And so my first experience
going there was looming over the bay is this monolithic
structure with iron and brick and weapons and people that
you know have thousand yard stairs and walking through the
(42:22):
first iron door into a sally port with bulletproof glass
facing another iron door, and they hand you the piece
of paper where you basically sign your life away that
says that you understand that if you were taking hostage,
that the authorities will do nothing to secure your release,
(42:42):
so there's nothing you can do once you sign that.
And I signed it, and the next door open and
there I am inside.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Did they have you wear vests like to distinguish you.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
The first time I walked in there, I walked in
as a civilian because we were scouting the location prior
to filming. Just before filming, we walked the lower yard,
the upper yard. We looked at themselves, and then we
leughed and the next time I went to work and
right away we went through a process of orientation with
(43:15):
the inmates, and Taylor was very deliberate about the approach
because we understand and he understands that there is a
regional conflict ongoing between North and South correct distinguished by
colors red and blue. So he brought us into this
(43:37):
room and all the inmates that were going to be
our individual a leader's click were on the one side
of the room and we were on the other. Taylor
got on top of a chair. He's wearing his usual
red pullover shirt and he says to them, I know
that you guys have an issue with color, and let
(43:59):
me explain to you why I wear red, he said.
When I make a movie, nobody on the set gets
to wear red but me, because whenever anybody comes to
the set and they're looking for the director, they say
the guy in red. I'm not doing it to offend anybody,
and I'm not doing it to show you off or anything.
(44:21):
This is the way I work, and if you have
a problem with that, you know that's not gonna stop
me from doing what I normally do. So basically he
earned their respect by being completely open about it.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Transparent but not completely transparent.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
But not differential. Yes he was he was directing. Yeah,
he was the director, and everybody was secure in the
outcome of it because nothing happened. Nobody said anything, nobody
said shook their head. I was watching the inmates and
all of them just basically just tuned in to it,
(45:00):
he was saying, And it was okay. I even saw
a couple of knots even there. Did you interact with
any of the inmates eventually? Yes, we were told we
were not allowed to give them anything, a cookie, a gum,
or anything at all. It's another world from the outside
and there's only certain things that keep you alive in there.
(45:20):
And one of them is respect. That's the ultimate currency
is respect. And it's either explained to you when you
talk with liaisons that are either part of them or
have been assigned by their administration, and also sometimes by
interaction with the inmates themselves. One incident in particular that
(45:44):
I recall was we went to work, and again, everything
that goes in and out of that prison has to
be counted. Every screwdriver, every makeup brush, everything has to
be counted in and it has to be counted out.
It's got to be accounted for, so time consuming, we
were limited by time there. It's a working prison. They
(46:07):
have their counts every so often, and if anything happens,
they go into lockdown, so you can't work. We walked
on the set and there was nobody around. They have
a basketball court, so two or three of us were
playing basketball. Guard comes over and he says, gentlemen, how
are you guys doing? If you notice anything strange? Is yeah,
where is everybody? Well, you know, somebody took care of
(46:29):
business and they're in lockdown, and so we don't know
how long it's gonna take, but just you know, before
warned that when the door's open, everybody's out, it's back
to normal, and someone may want to retaliate, so be aware.
Inmate comes over to us and says, if anything happens,
(46:50):
get behind us.
Speaker 6 (46:52):
They were going to protect us.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Fascinating.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
So the way you talk about character, it sounds like
you really think from the point of view of the character.
There's different schools of acting for folks who don't know.
There's people who like stay in character all the time,
and then there's people who like like the character doesn't exist,
you know.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Yeah, I mean in a lot of cases, take for example, Montana. Obviously,
my due diligence could not include being you know, murdering
somebody and being in prison now, so I had to
do a lot of reading. I had to do a
lot of a personal involvement of background, farm work or
whatnot that went into the character. I have a sister
(47:29):
who's a psychologist, and so she's helped me a lot
in terms of preparing characters and also in stuff that
I write. The psychological and the emotional aspects of the characters.
We did a numerological chart for the character. We did
an astrological chart, we did a whole psychological why did
(47:49):
he make this choice. Why did he make that choice?
That's the only thing that I have control of. Taylor
has control of everything else. But my work is the
only thing that I can control. And it doesn't matter
whether I'm working in a independent movie with no budget
or student film, or I'm working for Steven Spielberg or
(48:10):
Taylor Hackford. My work has to speak for who I am,
and that's the only thing that I can control. And
if I do my best, then I'm content. So even
in auditions, my audition could be the only time I
ever get a chance to do that role, So why
(48:30):
not do it fully?
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Correct Well, in that note, I'll just say I love
your work. I thought you did a tremendous job in
this film, and I just want to say thank you
for taking the time to be here.
Speaker 6 (48:42):
Thank you for the invitation. It's been fun.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
That's our show, Vatos Locos Forever.
Speaker 6 (48:48):
Now.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
I know if you're a fan of Blood and Blood Out,
you probably don't like narcs. But what about spies, specifically
spy kids. Next week I'll talk to the og spy
kid herself, Alexa Pinevega, and the woman behind the scenes
of the Little Blockbuster that Could Producer Elizabeth Haaviani. More
(49:12):
Than a Movie Season two was produced by Chloe Taglia
GMBE with the help of Reynolds Gutierres and Veronica Hernandez
in partnership with Iheart's Michael Dura podcast network. Hosted by
me Alex Fumetto, edited by Rose Red and Chloe Tuglia
Ganbe with the help of Cide Cavedo. Executive producers are
Carmen Gratto, Rose Red, Isaac Lee, and me Alex Flumetto.
Sound designed by Gozzalo Messi, original music by Golden Mines,
(49:36):
Darko and Ieme recorded at JTB Studios and Vaudeville Sound Our.
Executive producers at iHeart are Gazelle Bansis and Arlene Santana.
For more Michael Duda podcasts, listen to the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
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