October 13, 2022 • 36 mins
Milton Grimes represented a Mexican Mafia leader who sued the production of American Me for stealing his life story.
Milton Grimes represented Rodney King after his beating by the LAPD. He has served as a defense attorney in nine death penalty cases in 56 jury trials, and once got the call to represent notorious gang leader Joe “Peg Leg“ Morgan in his lawsuit against the movie.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Milton Charles Grimes has been practicing law in Los Angeles
for the last forty eight years. He's worked on fifty
six murder trials, but also some highly publicized civil rights
cases dealing with the guy named Rodney King who beat
ten cops. No, he got beat by four cops, and
twenty seven cops totally watched that other than the four
(00:23):
that participated in the beating. Grimes was responsible for winning
a three point eight million dollar civil claim on behalf
of King, the black motorist who was brutally beaten by
the Los Angeles Police Department and whose assailants were ultimately
found not guilty, sparking an uprising across the city of
Los Angeles and the country at large. We refer a
lot back to the so called La Riots in this podcast,
(00:47):
because it was in many ways the blaze that caught
from the powder keg that was l a when American
Me came out. The violence and gang culture portrayed in
American Me is the result of the societal neglect and
state of pression experienced primarily by people of color for
decades in Los Angeles. But we're speaking to Milton Grimes
(01:07):
about a different client today. Joe Morgan was held to
be the leader of the Mexican mafia. I understand I
met Joe Morgan. I guess was in the early nineties.
Um I was asked to if I would represent him
because he was not being cared for properly in the
(01:28):
California prison system. He was at Pelican Bay, which is
like the top security prison in California and a boast
of that anyway, and Joe was there and he wasn't
receiving proper medical care for his uh tessim or stomach cancer,
and so a friend of his, Shirley um McDonald, asked
(01:54):
me if I would help him. And I went up
there and interview with him, and he asked me if
I could help him seek proper medical attention, and that's
how I got acquainted with him. Joe peg Leg Morgan
was also who Edward James almost allegedly based the character
of Jdon played by William Forsyth in the movie clicka
(02:14):
ar Barrio Our Families. That's how we gotta see when
we were kids, belonging felt good, but having respect with
set feels even better. He was known for having a
shaved head a prosthetic leg, hence the nickname and piercing
(02:35):
eyes a lot like j D. The youngest of four siblings,
Morgan was born on April tenth in San Pedro, California,
to Croatian immigrants Clara and Grego Medagak, a truck driver.
According to infallible Internet reference site wikipedia dot com, shortly
after his birth, his father naturalized as a US citizen,
anglicizing the family name to Morgan due to an anti immigrant,
(02:58):
anti Slavic sentiment at the time. In the year Morgan
was born, the US past immigration laws limiting immigration from
the Balkans. It's believed that more than half of the
Croatian population in the US at the time was deported
from the nation. Morgan grew up in a primarily Mexican
and Croatian neighborhood in San Pedro. You can understand then,
(03:19):
how Morgan comes to identify with Mexican culture and people
who likewise had faced xenophobia and discriminatory immigration practices. He
ultimately moved to another Mexican neighborhood, Boil Heights. In the
late nineteen thirties, he joined the Ford Maravilla Street Gang,
one of the oldest documented gangs in Los Angeles, maybe
the oldest. The predominantly Hispanic gang was part of a
(03:40):
larger group known as Barrio Maraba, based in East l A,
a gang that at some point had beef with the
Mexican Mafia. So how does Joe Morgan come to become
part of Lammy Choices We Made to Survive? Godmundo J.
D n Me ten to five collections, according to his
(04:01):
obituary in The l A Times. In nineteen forty six,
at the age of sixteen, Morgan became romantically involved with
a thirty two year old woman literally twice his age,
eventually bludgeting her fifty two year old husband to death
with a tire iron and burying him in a shallow
grave in Malibu Hills. While awaiting trial in County jail,
(04:21):
Morgan escaped from custody by posing as his cellmate, who
was scheduled to be transferred to a juvenile forestry camp.
After he was captured, Morgan was convicted of second degree
murder and sent to San Quentin, where he served nine years.
In nineteen fifty six, a year after his parole, he
was sent back to prison for a machine gun robbery
of a West Covina bank, where he made off with
(04:42):
seventeen thousand dollars the equivalent of a hundred and eighty
five thousand today. While serving his sentence, he was transferred
from Fulsome back to County Jail in nineteen sixty one
so he could testify at another murder trial. From there,
he led an escape of eleven inmates through a pipe shaft,
reportedly using tools hidden in his prosthesis. The dude hid
(05:04):
tools in his fake leg. He was arrested a week
later as he shopped for groceries on the West Side.
Back in prison, he gradually befriended the leaders of the
Mexican Mafia, which was formed at Dual Vocational Institution in
Tracy in the mid fifties by a group of hardcore
East Side gang members seeking to establish a gang of gangs.
Although he was Anglo, Morgan was fluent in Spanish and
(05:27):
identified strongly with Latino culture. Come on totally. Quote, as
far as we were concerned, he was a Mexican, said
Raymond Mundo Mendoza forty three, a former Mexican Mafia hitman
who left the organization in the nineteen seventies after embracing Christianity. Quote.
(05:50):
If anybody ever called him a white boy. I have
no doubt he would have killed him. He knew what
he was as far as his jeans were concerned, but
his heart was Chicano end quote. Once firmly inside the mafia,
Morgan studied Aztec mythology and the writings of Ocdavio pass.
He got along well with the guards, but never sold
out his comrades, often using the affectionate term mijo to
(06:11):
address a particularly trusted friend. That's all from the l
a times oh bit. Some say Morgan was well respected
within the ranks of the Mexican Mafia and eventually became
a high ranking member. According to at least one former
member we spoke to, though Joe was well liked, but
he wasn't high ranking. His status is in non Mexican
would have never allowed it. However, others say his connections
(06:33):
with drug suppliers in Mexico helped pave the foundation for
the Mexican Mafia's narcotics business. Morgan was even able to
persuade the Aryan Brotherhood to forge a loose alliance with
LA due to having the Black Guerrilla Family as a
mutual arrival. Similar events play out as scenes in American
me but again with certain crucial details that are contested
(06:53):
by the Mexican mafia, including a scene where the b
GF kills a whole bunch of MS by suffocating them
in piles of heroin. Yeah, I know who you are
now breathe deep. We'll get into that in a later episode.
This was after Morgan had tried and successfully made some
(07:13):
loose alliances with black gangs, which eventually broke down because
the Mexican leaders at the time had issues with multiple
black gangs, you know, because Latinos are also racist. It
was thought that Morgan wanted to set deals with white
and black gangs to ensure that Lama could come out
the dominant force with little resistance. This was a characteristic
Morgan was known for being very political and strategic. Allegedly,
(07:36):
Morgan made diplomatic relations with the Los Angeles Italian crime
family through Michael Ristello, who he met during the nine
years sentence the mobster was serving in Chino for a
string of armed robberies during the nineteen seventies. Another event
loosely depicted in the film. There's going to be some
changes in the way business has done mist from now
(07:56):
and are people who are going to be responsible for
the easterly Exchange. All deliveries between Mexico and Exchange are
going to be done through US. All collections are going
to be done by us. Is that's what you came
here for to tell me my business for now one
your business into Vadio. It's going to be our business too.
(08:18):
It's rumored that Morgan even committed the first prison gang
street execution in Los Angeles in and here's a rumor
I love. It's believed that Morgan offered Croatian political refugees
protection from Yugoslav agents in the US. Los Angeles was
one of the few cities Croatians could openly oppose the
Communist government without any of the local leadership being murdered
(08:40):
like in Chicago or New York City. Supposedly, Morgan used
his gang ties to intimidate or even murder Yugoslavian state
agents sent to kill their political rivals. Again citing Moondo
Mendoza in the l A. Times obituary quote. With his savvy,
his manipulative skills, his intelligence, his charisma, and his knack
for being profitable, he easily could have been the president
(09:03):
of a major corporation. Part of him was cruel, and
cold blooded, but there was a side of Joe that
was very human, very humane end quote. Welcome to more
than a Movie American Me, a podcast that digs into
the history and mystery of American Met, a film directed
by and starring Edward James almost that had a huge
(09:25):
impact on Latino cinema and culture. I'm your host, Alex Fumeto,
and I'll be diving into the behind the scenes controversy
every episode. I'm gonna try to peel back a layer
of the story by trying to go deeper into the
intentions and motives behind the film and the backlash. Thirty
years later, on today's podcast, I'm speaking to Milton Grimes,
(09:46):
attorney for Mexican Mafia member Joe Morgan, who was the
basis for the character j D in American Meat. So
when you went to meet with uh Joe Morgan, Uh,
it was to bring a lawsuit against uh the state
of California. First, it was to see what was happening
(10:10):
with him and why was he complaining about the lack
of proper medical care and look into that and to
attempt to get the administration of the prison system to
give him care proper care. As you are entitled to
when your institutional lives, and yet not totally unsurprising that
the criminal justice system failed. And I tried those cases,
(10:33):
a couple of them, and it's, uh, it should be surprising.
Was not surprising, But how can you let a human
beings suffer? Is beyond my understanding? I agreed. So, Um,
how well did you get to know Joe Morgan in
that process? Um? I spent a few hours with him.
We may have talked on the phone. I'm not sure occasion.
(10:57):
I believe, I believe we had meetings, and I'm not
even sure about that. I understand that it went from
there too, the suing of the major studios who produced
the video or the video the movie American me portraying
(11:19):
Mr Morrigan in that movie, and there was some dispute
as to some of the things they portrayed Mr Morrigan
in and there was some disagreement with people that were
knowledgeable are involved in the Mexican Association, and uh, they
(11:42):
disagreed with some of the portrayals in their of Mr Morgan,
and um, some disputes and disagreements came out of that,
and UM, that's what happened. And you can say it's
just a movie. But a lot of times people don't
know the difference. Take the Fox News talk show where
they're trying to explain to the host what prison is like,
(12:05):
he'll shake it, he's gonna see I tell you, I
don't know. Was that a television program? That's I saw
the one. I've seen that one. But then they were
all like cutting the garlic the American You know that
one too, I've seen that with the rice bag, and
I'm just saying yes at this point, coming out poppy.
(12:29):
So it's it's thought that the character that that Mr
Morgan was Um took issue with the character j D
who is uh played by William Forsyth Um, who is
not of Mexican descent? Was was Joe Morgan Mexican? I
believe he was port your Geese. I believe that he
(12:50):
was not Mexican. They say he was white, he's not Latino,
but I believe he was Portuguese. He was Croatian. How
does a guy like that end up associated with an
organization called the Mexican Mafia. Well, he lived in the
East l A Area. I understand he associated Those were
his playmates, Those where his friends, those were That's where
(13:14):
he grew up and he adopted the culture. Uh, and
they believed in him. Uh, they loved him. Um, and
he was as one of them as a native born one. Um.
You know, there's something about how do I say this?
(13:35):
Black people have a way of identifying and accepting people
of an opposite race that may even be part of
the race that is oppressing them. But if you're a
person with a heart and you show concerned love and
belief and loyalty to the group, I think the color
(13:55):
of your skin and the race you are takes a
second seat. That makes sense. I mean from what I heard,
Joe was fluent in Spanish, right right, he which he
identified with the culture. Many Chicano's aren't even fluent in
Spanish Spanish, you know, especially in the US, right right,
and and he Um, So when you come to meet him,
(14:17):
it's sort of it's at a later point in his life. Um.
How does he come to be held at Pelican Bay?
His sentence, I don't I've forgotten what it was for.
Was it for any murder? I believe somewhat that was involved.
But next Pelican Bay was known to hold the worst
(14:40):
of the worst, so to speak. Quote, I visited Pelican
Bay once because I had a deaf pility case and
I wanted to visit it so I would know what
I was talking about when I talked to the jury
about spiring, sparing, sparing my client's life and not putting
him to death, and that Pelican Bay was a place
where NAT couldn't get out of if it was locked
(15:02):
up in there. You follow me, And it seemed like
that when I was there, pardon, it was like the
Blacks was on the weight power one hour, two hours,
and the Whites was the next, and the Latinos was
the next, and they didn't integrate, and they separated, and
they kept the hostility amongst the groups so that they
could be entertained, or for whatever other up and reason
(15:24):
they do that in the prison system. But getting back
to your question why Joe was assigned there at that
time and in his life, I guess it was just
to make sure he would be fully punished for what
society or the institution thought he needed to be punished for.
Coming up, Milton Grimes will tell us about the Joe
(15:47):
Morgan that he met face to face in prison. Welcome
back to More Than a Movie. I'm Alex Fometto and
we're talking to criminal and civil attorney Milton Times, who
represented Mexican mafia member. I want to go back a
little bit to this, this meeting that you had with
(16:07):
Joe Morgan. Can you what do you remember about him
and his personality meeting him? Rather than be in a terror,
a monster that would attack and I was supposed to
shiver in front of I remember him being a mild mannered,
grandfatherly type. To be honest with you, the monster was
(16:28):
not there. And I have to admit that I had
some concerns with meeting the infamous Joe Morrigan. You're following me.
None of that was there. None of that was there.
And you know, I mean, I've represented Shugu Night, I've
represented a number of people who are supposed to be
I won't say ax killers, that's taken it too far,
(16:50):
but people of people. Man. You know, people do some
things that are bad and ugly. But I've learned to
try to see the human side of people and respect
that and and just I respect you, I expect you
to respect me so that that monster is not there.
(17:10):
So did you what did you know about the Mexican
mafia before going into Mitcho? What did I know, I
know that during that time they're in the drug cases,
you had to be careful as an attorney not to
get too involved with them or close to the guys
that were known to or suspected to be involved with
(17:35):
the cartels, because you lose control. You could lose control
of the case, in your office and your life because
if you got too close and you learned too much,
you could get killed. Uh So that was that kind
of fear out there. I didn't have that concern as
(17:55):
much because I try to keep a professional relationship with clients.
Even though I get personal with clients. I like to
get to know who am I representing, because I don't
think you can represent a person very well if you
don't get to learn who they are, and they learn
who you are, and you can get a more honest relationship.
So but I was I was cautious about when a
(18:18):
person is going to be coming from Mexico to retain me,
and they may have certain demands and they're gonna want
to know everything and anything that's going on, and I
want to give you directions on what to do, and
and I just don't want that. The money you can
keep it, you can, and there were a lot of
guys made a lot of money. With a hundred two
fifty thousand, half million dollars billion dollar fees, I represented
(18:41):
more the midline dealers during that time. How did you
How did you choose your clients? How did you decide
I want to represent this person. I think everyone is
entitled to representation. Uh uh. I've represented child molesters, I've
(19:02):
represented murderers, I've represented the run of them, everybody, because
my belief was that everyone is entitled to the best defense.
So you know, I've represented a few people with it
and say anything defense and mental illness. Like the lady
who killed her baby, I thought she should ride in hell.
(19:25):
When I read the headlines and the paper mother kills
her baby and the way she did it, I'm saying
this woman should ride in hell. When I met her
at jail on a Friday after her family came and
said they interviewed six lawyers and they decided to come
back and hire me. I first thought, y'all trying to
set me up because she's a white girl. You're gonna
hide this black lawyer and I'm join in screw up,
(19:45):
and you're gonna be blaming me and everybody's gonna be attacked. Okay,
I'm gonna give you this figure here. So they wrote
the check, said okay, and shucks, I didn't. I didn't
get that done. So I'm stuck with this case. So
I had got to go down to jail and see her.
On a Friday night. I a to him about eleven
o'clock and I tell my wife at the time, she's
not a criminal, she's not a killer. This girl needs
(20:07):
some help. You follow me, and she did. She did.
I grew to understand what postpartom psychosis is, and my
wife later told me, you know, I had post bottom.
I didn't have psychosis, but I found out women who
have babies have post bottom. They don't have all that
love and good feeling and fuzzy for babies all the time.
(20:28):
Sometimes they want to put them in that oven. It
turned hot. You follow me, I do. In essence, what
I think Milton is saying is that most of the
people he defends, even when they've done heinous things, they're
human beings. They're not all sociopaths or monsters. They're people
who themselves have suffered or are suffering in some way
and trying to play the cards that they're dealt as
(20:49):
best they can. And maybe, you know, maybe folks from
these neighborhoods aren't as eloquent. And I studied about this
as you are. But they know, right, I mean, kids
who are growing up in Ramona Gardens in the early nineties,
they know that the system is not set up to
favor them. Right, that's right, they right, that's right. They
know cops don't respect them. They know cops don't treat
(21:11):
white kids and Beverly Hills or bell Air like they
treat them. You follow me and make them these fucking
these two judges in Pennsylvania that were kids for cash
juvenile justice, that's right. Yeah, they're selling these kids for
a traffic citation, six months in juvenile hall, in prisons,
six months, little kids they were putting in the criminal
(21:33):
justice system, and nobody doing anything about it. The clerks,
the bailiffs, they got kids. You're sitting there letting this
happen because it's not your son. He's skin is different
than yours, and you're letting these judges make millions of
dollars evilly doing evil. Yeah, but then these kids in
prison for money, and this is how how old is
(21:54):
Joe Morgan. When you met him in the nineties, you
counted up because I don't remember birthday, but met him
in ninety nine four, Morgan would have been in his
early to mid sixties. Yeah, he should have been taken
care of more and he which means that he came
of age in a time in Los Angeles where I
mean by you know, we see it in the movie
(22:16):
right with the zoot Suit Riots, right, I don't know
if you've seen recently, yes, sir, and I always go
back to, you know, during the zoot Suits Riots, the
Marie I'm sorry, the army guys in the sellers, they
were beating Chicanos and then they said, well, let's get
we beat the black too, and they started beating them
(22:36):
and there was It's in It's in the l A
Times because I used it in a lawsuit against the
Sea of Santa Monica for racial discrimination and voter rights
violation that we won. And part of it was the
research of the zoot Suit days with Chicanos. And believe
it or not, the brothers and the Chicanos got together
(23:00):
over in Compton, I think it was or what and
they entice them out because they had heard that there's
gonna be three bus loads of sailors coming to beat
the black's ass over and watch. I think it was.
And so they got together. It isn't you can research
it in the paper. They got together and they developed
(23:22):
attacked it. And they had two or three guys out
there going f you, f you come on them, and
they got them to charge them and come around the corner.
They were they they they've done away with a couple
of lovers. Yeah, it'sn't written about. And what I'm saying, man,
how do we lose that coalition? How do we lose
(23:44):
that support for one another brother because we got the
same enemy. Why they why you're letting them put us
against each other? Well, certainly part of it is that
you get sent to prison. You described it yourself. You said,
first the white people are the black people are on
the workout station and rotate. So you separate them like that,
and then you go back to society. And those are
(24:05):
the kinds of norms they're taking with your used to.
I did some cases out of Corkran during the gladiator
war that they had where six people got killed out
in the yard because they had the gladiator fights and
they would pit black against Mexican and and and brother
against brother, and they would kill each other and the
guards will be up there betting on it in the towers,
(24:27):
the glad looking up. And I represented two families who
had lost young men to that gladiator war. You're following me,
And we learned that I never forget. One of the
cases was we got the research the discovery on uh
the use how many times they had used the rifle
to shoot down in the yard. And on one occasion
(24:52):
the guy the guard had propped the rifle up against
something in it slid off and Paul went down and
ricochet and shot it. And they did an investigation said
that was a justified shooting. Oh my god. Yeah, that's
how they write it off. Man. It's like you said,
it's it shouldn't be surprising, but it's still, you know,
(25:13):
it's still You're like Jesus when it never ends. After
the break, we'll hear more about Joe Morgan the human
being and try to better understand whatever James almost got
right and wrong with j D in American Me. Welcome
(25:35):
back to More Than a Movie. I'm Alex Flomto, and
we're talking to criminal and civil attorney Milton Grimes, who
represented Mexican mafia member Joe Morgan. I asked Milton how
he thinks Joe Morgan should be thought of by the
general public as a human being, whether he was Croatian
or Portuguese or whatever. We all here with this one throughty. Second,
the skin that defines who we are for some dumbass
(25:58):
reason that makes no sense, and we are used. That's
used to keep us from getting to know each other.
But but culturally speaking here in l A, you know,
two is the year of American me comes out. It's
also the year of the So can you talk to
you know, there's young people maybe hopefully that are listening
(26:21):
to this. Can you can you tell them how that
that period was different in l A than it is
now or what it was like? Just what was that
period like in l A. And that can be as
simple as you know your client, right, starting with your client,
Rodney King. It's um, you know, I was probably been
practicing law then almost twenty years. I started in nineteen
(26:44):
seventy four, and um, you know it was kind of
a good time for me. I was doing well, uh
in the practice of law, and uh, I see the
Rodney King beating a friend of mine calls said, hey, man,
this guy got beat by the police and he's on
parole and they're calling the inn word and died out.
(27:07):
And I said, hey, bro, I really don't have time
for it because I'm in the middle of this trial.
His name was Ron Jesse. Used to play football with
the Rams. He was a wide receiver and he's ad. Man,
this guy is you know, he's a friend of mine,
nephew and he got beat pretty bad grimes. Can you
help him? I said no, I'm in trial, man, I'm
in trial with this brother on a double hummer side.
We're facing the death penalty. And he caressed out the
(27:28):
judge yesterday and because of the jury selection we were
going through and the eight excuse the only black possible juror,
he called the judge of racist redneck road wearing who
would wearing one to be Grand Wizard of the Clucuse Clan,
buckethead motherfucker. I said, I don't have time to deal
with another case right now, because I got to deal
with this crazy man. You follow me, and so he said, man,
(27:52):
but you know, I said, no, brother, I can't do it.
You know. Plus I get I see those cases all
the time and how we gonna prove that? They called
him the end word. And so I go home after
I leave the office and I'm changing clothes to go
to the gym, and I see this but the news
on them. Wow, they're beating this brothermdam. They got to
stop that ship in South Africa. This is unreal how
(28:14):
they do us? And that bus is too big to
be in South Africa. It's not one of them too.
That's the Oh, that's the key. That's what he called
me about. I saw this shaking almost something. That's that's history.
We finally caught the lock Ness monster. You follow me,
that beating that we never could prove, and the N
(28:34):
word that we never could prove. We tell brothers may
have brother but what am gonna do? You got five
cops that didn't happen that you tripped, you understand, and
got that dolldom broke them on. So what we But
now we got the lock next monster. So it was like, wow,
that was a ninety one. Finally got it. So when
(28:54):
I called him back and said, hey, hey, I am
not going to the gym. We need I need this case.
This is my if I was to design a case
in law school, it would be this case. This is
the epitome of our civil rights here. And I called
him back and he said, let me get back to you.
Coming back, said King's mama said she don't want you,
Johnny Cochrane associated with it because she don't want it
to be a race case. I go, at leastoud have
got the asshipping there, mama, that dog. So that was
(29:17):
my reaction, I'm being honest. So I didn't hear about
it until after the civil disorder. I heard about it
and heard from him in September of ninety two. But
that verdict and see me, Valley man Um, it felt
like a mu had kicked me in my stomach, you know,
like back in the country we always were warn don't
(29:38):
go behind that horseboard, don't go behind that mule, kick
you kill you. And it felt like I had been
kicked in the stomach. You know. It was painful. So
I understand the young people involved. Do you remember anything
about Edward James almost from that time. I only remember
that he had to go into seclusion because there was
(29:59):
alleged threats on his life. A couple of people were
killed because of the production of that movie depicting Joe
borgan in a non complementary fashion, or saying that certain
things happened to him that they didn't appreciate it appreciate
because it challenged his manhood and his sexual preference or sexuality,
(30:23):
or maybe he was a victim portrayed. I don't remember
the exact portrayal of what happened there, but it was like,
that can't happen, that's not a that's a no. Note,
that didn't happen. He would have never been the leader
of our organization if that was the case, And so
that's not true. I mean, look, homophobia still exists, just
(30:44):
as racism still exists. But what was the culture around
that kind of an accusation in those kinds of neighborhoods
here in l A. At that time, I believe in
the African American community, homosexuality was beginning to because of
the game members coming back from prison to be more
(31:04):
of an accepted uh uh devior for whatever better description.
There is behavior or a different behavior than it was
allegedly was in the Latino Hispanic community. Uh but I
(31:24):
understand now is accepted more so in the Hispanic community. Um,
but I probably didn't recognize that homosexuality was as much
of a taboo in the Hispanic community to I learned
(31:46):
that that was one of the primers of motivators for
why that movie was rejected. I mean, it's it seems
to me like Edward James almost in American was almost
using rape as like a scared straight tactic, right like
he he said he made that movie to basically end
(32:06):
gang violence, to stop kids the cycle of violence, kids
joining games. Do you think, like, does that work? I
don't think that would have been justifiable cause for doing that.
You can't take a man out of character for something
that's serious. And I know Hollywood justify based on a
true story with their creativeness in presenting their true story,
(32:31):
but I think it's a if you're gonna put the
true story or alleged that that's what it is, you
should stick as close to that as possible. And whatever
your personal or goal is, or your personal or acceptance
of things are, I don't think you should portrayed that
to someone if it doesn't have some quantum quality of
(32:54):
truth to it. Okay, I don't have any problem with
gays or home sexuality at all. I'm pretty sure and
much better than my old age than I was maybe
it used to bother me. If I saw two men
kissing two women kissing, I'm gonna damn, that looks good.
So that's just my bringing up. But people grow. Yeah,
(33:17):
my bringing up, my process and things. You follow me?
Uh so my kids? You know, I have relatives who
have same sex relationships. What's up? You know? Fine? Fine,
it's funny how I didn't know I could be that
easily accepted something that close. Sure, but it's okay. Do
(33:37):
you think that, like is does that actually work? Do
people actually decide not to commit crimes because they're afraid? No,
it's no more of a deterrent than it is for
killing somebody in a robberie or something, because they ain't
thinking about getting caught, and the death penalty is not
a deterrent. So almost sexuality show is not a deterrent, right,
and all the research will tell you that. Do you
(33:58):
think that that a movie like American Micke get made today?
We're in a time where there's notice difference in truth
in a lie. We're living in a time in our
history where a big lie becomes the truth. Uh. I
want to say we have more transparency now and more
(34:19):
determination to present the truth and we don't have to
hide behind pretending that's the truth, believe it or not.
I'm a lawyer, but I take my reputation, my credibility,
my integrity is based on me being believed, believe it
or not by judges, jurors, and other attorneys and people.
I really guard that that movie probably could be made today,
(34:43):
but I think that there would be more of an
immediate attack on the incorrectness of it and the inaccuracy
of it in the lie of it, I think, rather
than as letting it go because James almost is a
great actor and he's achieved in Academy Award or something
to whatever, and uh that that movie would be more
(35:03):
challenged today because of its inaccurate portrayal of the truth,
because we're more conscious about the lives that presented to
us today. On our next episode, I'm speaking with a
real Angelino, a Southeast l A native, Eric Galindo. In
(35:25):
addition to being a great journalist and podcaster, he's a
screenwriter who specifically writes about his experience as a Chicano
growing up in l A. I remember specifically arguments and
playground about like is that real? But they're really green
light of celebrity, Like, how are they even gonna get
to him? He's so famous, Like he's not you know,
he's not fucking on Florence. And the thing about like
(35:46):
the kids is like you hear the stories from like
your older siblings, you know, and like they become like
that game of Telephone where you know, by the end
it's like Edward James almost it's actually fucking a gangster. Now.
That's on the next episode of More Than a Movie American.
More Than a Movie American Me is a production of
(36:08):
Exile Content Studios in partnership with I Hearts, Michael Podcast Network,
and Trojan Horse Media. The show is produced by me
Alex Fometo at Angry Yuka on the Internets, and our
senior producer is Nigel Dora. Our executive producers are Rose Red,
Nando Vila and Kareem Taps. Production assistance from Sabine Jansen
and Octavio and Stella Emmett. Mixing and sound designed by
(36:29):
the waterlo Albornos. Our executive producers at I Heart are
Gisel Bansas and Arlene Santana. For more podcasts, listen to
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows,
Milton Charles Grimes has been practicing law in Los Angeles
for the last forty eight years. He's worked on fifty
six murder trials, but also some highly publicized civil rights
cases dealing with the guy named Rodney King who beat
ten cops. No, he got beat by four cops, and
twenty seven cops totally watched that other than the four
(00:23):
that participated in the beating. Grimes was responsible for winning
a three point eight million dollar civil claim on behalf
of King, the black motorist who was brutally beaten by
the Los Angeles Police Department and whose assailants were ultimately
found not guilty, sparking an uprising across the city of
Los Angeles and the country at large. We refer a
lot back to the so called La Riots in this podcast,
(00:47):
because it was in many ways the blaze that caught
from the powder keg that was l a when American
Me came out. The violence and gang culture portrayed in
American Me is the result of the societal neglect and
state of pression experienced primarily by people of color for
decades in Los Angeles. But we're speaking to Milton Grimes
(01:07):
about a different client today. Joe Morgan was held to
be the leader of the Mexican mafia. I understand I
met Joe Morgan. I guess was in the early nineties.
Um I was asked to if I would represent him
because he was not being cared for properly in the
(01:28):
California prison system. He was at Pelican Bay, which is
like the top security prison in California and a boast
of that anyway, and Joe was there and he wasn't
receiving proper medical care for his uh tessim or stomach cancer,
and so a friend of his, Shirley um McDonald, asked
(01:54):
me if I would help him. And I went up
there and interview with him, and he asked me if
I could help him seek proper medical attention, and that's
how I got acquainted with him. Joe peg Leg Morgan
was also who Edward James almost allegedly based the character
of Jdon played by William Forsyth in the movie clicka
(02:14):
ar Barrio Our Families. That's how we gotta see when
we were kids, belonging felt good, but having respect with
set feels even better. He was known for having a
shaved head a prosthetic leg, hence the nickname and piercing
(02:35):
eyes a lot like j D. The youngest of four siblings,
Morgan was born on April tenth in San Pedro, California,
to Croatian immigrants Clara and Grego Medagak, a truck driver.
According to infallible Internet reference site wikipedia dot com, shortly
after his birth, his father naturalized as a US citizen,
anglicizing the family name to Morgan due to an anti immigrant,
(02:58):
anti Slavic sentiment at the time. In the year Morgan
was born, the US past immigration laws limiting immigration from
the Balkans. It's believed that more than half of the
Croatian population in the US at the time was deported
from the nation. Morgan grew up in a primarily Mexican
and Croatian neighborhood in San Pedro. You can understand then,
(03:19):
how Morgan comes to identify with Mexican culture and people
who likewise had faced xenophobia and discriminatory immigration practices. He
ultimately moved to another Mexican neighborhood, Boil Heights. In the
late nineteen thirties, he joined the Ford Maravilla Street Gang,
one of the oldest documented gangs in Los Angeles, maybe
the oldest. The predominantly Hispanic gang was part of a
(03:40):
larger group known as Barrio Maraba, based in East l A,
a gang that at some point had beef with the
Mexican Mafia. So how does Joe Morgan come to become
part of Lammy Choices We Made to Survive? Godmundo J.
D n Me ten to five collections, according to his
(04:01):
obituary in The l A Times. In nineteen forty six,
at the age of sixteen, Morgan became romantically involved with
a thirty two year old woman literally twice his age,
eventually bludgeting her fifty two year old husband to death
with a tire iron and burying him in a shallow
grave in Malibu Hills. While awaiting trial in County jail,
(04:21):
Morgan escaped from custody by posing as his cellmate, who
was scheduled to be transferred to a juvenile forestry camp.
After he was captured, Morgan was convicted of second degree
murder and sent to San Quentin, where he served nine years.
In nineteen fifty six, a year after his parole, he
was sent back to prison for a machine gun robbery
of a West Covina bank, where he made off with
(04:42):
seventeen thousand dollars the equivalent of a hundred and eighty
five thousand today. While serving his sentence, he was transferred
from Fulsome back to County Jail in nineteen sixty one
so he could testify at another murder trial. From there,
he led an escape of eleven inmates through a pipe shaft,
reportedly using tools hidden in his prosthesis. The dude hid
(05:04):
tools in his fake leg. He was arrested a week
later as he shopped for groceries on the West Side.
Back in prison, he gradually befriended the leaders of the
Mexican Mafia, which was formed at Dual Vocational Institution in
Tracy in the mid fifties by a group of hardcore
East Side gang members seeking to establish a gang of gangs.
Although he was Anglo, Morgan was fluent in Spanish and
(05:27):
identified strongly with Latino culture. Come on totally. Quote, as
far as we were concerned, he was a Mexican, said
Raymond Mundo Mendoza forty three, a former Mexican Mafia hitman
who left the organization in the nineteen seventies after embracing Christianity. Quote.
(05:50):
If anybody ever called him a white boy. I have
no doubt he would have killed him. He knew what
he was as far as his jeans were concerned, but
his heart was Chicano end quote. Once firmly inside the mafia,
Morgan studied Aztec mythology and the writings of Ocdavio pass.
He got along well with the guards, but never sold
out his comrades, often using the affectionate term mijo to
(06:11):
address a particularly trusted friend. That's all from the l
a times oh bit. Some say Morgan was well respected
within the ranks of the Mexican Mafia and eventually became
a high ranking member. According to at least one former
member we spoke to, though Joe was well liked, but
he wasn't high ranking. His status is in non Mexican
would have never allowed it. However, others say his connections
(06:33):
with drug suppliers in Mexico helped pave the foundation for
the Mexican Mafia's narcotics business. Morgan was even able to
persuade the Aryan Brotherhood to forge a loose alliance with
LA due to having the Black Guerrilla Family as a
mutual arrival. Similar events play out as scenes in American
me but again with certain crucial details that are contested
(06:53):
by the Mexican mafia, including a scene where the b
GF kills a whole bunch of MS by suffocating them
in piles of heroin. Yeah, I know who you are
now breathe deep. We'll get into that in a later episode.
This was after Morgan had tried and successfully made some
(07:13):
loose alliances with black gangs, which eventually broke down because
the Mexican leaders at the time had issues with multiple
black gangs, you know, because Latinos are also racist. It
was thought that Morgan wanted to set deals with white
and black gangs to ensure that Lama could come out
the dominant force with little resistance. This was a characteristic
Morgan was known for being very political and strategic. Allegedly,
(07:36):
Morgan made diplomatic relations with the Los Angeles Italian crime
family through Michael Ristello, who he met during the nine
years sentence the mobster was serving in Chino for a
string of armed robberies during the nineteen seventies. Another event
loosely depicted in the film. There's going to be some
changes in the way business has done mist from now
(07:56):
and are people who are going to be responsible for
the easterly Exchange. All deliveries between Mexico and Exchange are
going to be done through US. All collections are going
to be done by us. Is that's what you came
here for to tell me my business for now one
your business into Vadio. It's going to be our business too.
(08:18):
It's rumored that Morgan even committed the first prison gang
street execution in Los Angeles in and here's a rumor
I love. It's believed that Morgan offered Croatian political refugees
protection from Yugoslav agents in the US. Los Angeles was
one of the few cities Croatians could openly oppose the
Communist government without any of the local leadership being murdered
(08:40):
like in Chicago or New York City. Supposedly, Morgan used
his gang ties to intimidate or even murder Yugoslavian state
agents sent to kill their political rivals. Again citing Moondo
Mendoza in the l A. Times obituary quote. With his savvy,
his manipulative skills, his intelligence, his charisma, and his knack
for being profitable, he easily could have been the president
(09:03):
of a major corporation. Part of him was cruel, and
cold blooded, but there was a side of Joe that
was very human, very humane end quote. Welcome to more
than a Movie American Me, a podcast that digs into
the history and mystery of American Met, a film directed
by and starring Edward James almost that had a huge
(09:25):
impact on Latino cinema and culture. I'm your host, Alex Fumeto,
and I'll be diving into the behind the scenes controversy
every episode. I'm gonna try to peel back a layer
of the story by trying to go deeper into the
intentions and motives behind the film and the backlash. Thirty
years later, on today's podcast, I'm speaking to Milton Grimes,
(09:46):
attorney for Mexican Mafia member Joe Morgan, who was the
basis for the character j D in American Meat. So
when you went to meet with uh Joe Morgan, Uh,
it was to bring a lawsuit against uh the state
of California. First, it was to see what was happening
(10:10):
with him and why was he complaining about the lack
of proper medical care and look into that and to
attempt to get the administration of the prison system to
give him care proper care. As you are entitled to
when your institutional lives, and yet not totally unsurprising that
the criminal justice system failed. And I tried those cases,
(10:33):
a couple of them, and it's, uh, it should be surprising.
Was not surprising, But how can you let a human
beings suffer? Is beyond my understanding? I agreed. So, Um,
how well did you get to know Joe Morgan in
that process? Um? I spent a few hours with him.
We may have talked on the phone. I'm not sure occasion.
(10:57):
I believe, I believe we had meetings, and I'm not
even sure about that. I understand that it went from
there too, the suing of the major studios who produced
the video or the video the movie American me portraying
(11:19):
Mr Morrigan in that movie, and there was some dispute
as to some of the things they portrayed Mr Morrigan
in and there was some disagreement with people that were
knowledgeable are involved in the Mexican Association, and uh, they
(11:42):
disagreed with some of the portrayals in their of Mr Morgan,
and um, some disputes and disagreements came out of that,
and UM, that's what happened. And you can say it's
just a movie. But a lot of times people don't
know the difference. Take the Fox News talk show where
they're trying to explain to the host what prison is like,
(12:05):
he'll shake it, he's gonna see I tell you, I
don't know. Was that a television program? That's I saw
the one. I've seen that one. But then they were
all like cutting the garlic the American You know that
one too, I've seen that with the rice bag, and
I'm just saying yes at this point, coming out poppy.
(12:29):
So it's it's thought that the character that that Mr
Morgan was Um took issue with the character j D
who is uh played by William Forsyth Um, who is
not of Mexican descent? Was was Joe Morgan Mexican? I
believe he was port your Geese. I believe that he
(12:50):
was not Mexican. They say he was white, he's not Latino,
but I believe he was Portuguese. He was Croatian. How
does a guy like that end up associated with an
organization called the Mexican Mafia. Well, he lived in the
East l A Area. I understand he associated Those were
his playmates, Those where his friends, those were That's where
(13:14):
he grew up and he adopted the culture. Uh, and
they believed in him. Uh, they loved him. Um, and
he was as one of them as a native born one. Um.
You know, there's something about how do I say this?
(13:35):
Black people have a way of identifying and accepting people
of an opposite race that may even be part of
the race that is oppressing them. But if you're a
person with a heart and you show concerned love and
belief and loyalty to the group, I think the color
(13:55):
of your skin and the race you are takes a
second seat. That makes sense. I mean from what I heard,
Joe was fluent in Spanish, right right, he which he
identified with the culture. Many Chicano's aren't even fluent in
Spanish Spanish, you know, especially in the US, right right,
and and he Um, So when you come to meet him,
(14:17):
it's sort of it's at a later point in his life. Um.
How does he come to be held at Pelican Bay?
His sentence, I don't I've forgotten what it was for.
Was it for any murder? I believe somewhat that was involved.
But next Pelican Bay was known to hold the worst
(14:40):
of the worst, so to speak. Quote, I visited Pelican
Bay once because I had a deaf pility case and
I wanted to visit it so I would know what
I was talking about when I talked to the jury
about spiring, sparing, sparing my client's life and not putting
him to death, and that Pelican Bay was a place
where NAT couldn't get out of if it was locked
(15:02):
up in there. You follow me, And it seemed like
that when I was there, pardon, it was like the
Blacks was on the weight power one hour, two hours,
and the Whites was the next, and the Latinos was
the next, and they didn't integrate, and they separated, and
they kept the hostility amongst the groups so that they
could be entertained, or for whatever other up and reason
(15:24):
they do that in the prison system. But getting back
to your question why Joe was assigned there at that
time and in his life, I guess it was just
to make sure he would be fully punished for what
society or the institution thought he needed to be punished for.
Coming up, Milton Grimes will tell us about the Joe
(15:47):
Morgan that he met face to face in prison. Welcome
back to More Than a Movie. I'm Alex Fometto and
we're talking to criminal and civil attorney Milton Times, who
represented Mexican mafia member. I want to go back a
little bit to this, this meeting that you had with
(16:07):
Joe Morgan. Can you what do you remember about him
and his personality meeting him? Rather than be in a terror,
a monster that would attack and I was supposed to
shiver in front of I remember him being a mild mannered,
grandfatherly type. To be honest with you, the monster was
(16:28):
not there. And I have to admit that I had
some concerns with meeting the infamous Joe Morrigan. You're following me.
None of that was there. None of that was there.
And you know, I mean, I've represented Shugu Night, I've
represented a number of people who are supposed to be
I won't say ax killers, that's taken it too far,
(16:50):
but people of people. Man. You know, people do some
things that are bad and ugly. But I've learned to
try to see the human side of people and respect
that and and just I respect you, I expect you
to respect me so that that monster is not there.
(17:10):
So did you what did you know about the Mexican
mafia before going into Mitcho? What did I know, I
know that during that time they're in the drug cases,
you had to be careful as an attorney not to
get too involved with them or close to the guys
that were known to or suspected to be involved with
(17:35):
the cartels, because you lose control. You could lose control
of the case, in your office and your life because
if you got too close and you learned too much,
you could get killed. Uh So that was that kind
of fear out there. I didn't have that concern as
(17:55):
much because I try to keep a professional relationship with clients.
Even though I get personal with clients. I like to
get to know who am I representing, because I don't
think you can represent a person very well if you
don't get to learn who they are, and they learn
who you are, and you can get a more honest relationship.
So but I was I was cautious about when a
(18:18):
person is going to be coming from Mexico to retain me,
and they may have certain demands and they're gonna want
to know everything and anything that's going on, and I
want to give you directions on what to do, and
and I just don't want that. The money you can
keep it, you can, and there were a lot of
guys made a lot of money. With a hundred two
fifty thousand, half million dollars billion dollar fees, I represented
(18:41):
more the midline dealers during that time. How did you
How did you choose your clients? How did you decide
I want to represent this person. I think everyone is
entitled to representation. Uh uh. I've represented child molesters, I've
(19:02):
represented murderers, I've represented the run of them, everybody, because
my belief was that everyone is entitled to the best defense.
So you know, I've represented a few people with it
and say anything defense and mental illness. Like the lady
who killed her baby, I thought she should ride in hell.
(19:25):
When I read the headlines and the paper mother kills
her baby and the way she did it, I'm saying
this woman should ride in hell. When I met her
at jail on a Friday after her family came and
said they interviewed six lawyers and they decided to come
back and hire me. I first thought, y'all trying to
set me up because she's a white girl. You're gonna
hide this black lawyer and I'm join in screw up,
(19:45):
and you're gonna be blaming me and everybody's gonna be attacked. Okay,
I'm gonna give you this figure here. So they wrote
the check, said okay, and shucks, I didn't. I didn't
get that done. So I'm stuck with this case. So
I had got to go down to jail and see her.
On a Friday night. I a to him about eleven
o'clock and I tell my wife at the time, she's
not a criminal, she's not a killer. This girl needs
(20:07):
some help. You follow me, and she did. She did.
I grew to understand what postpartom psychosis is, and my
wife later told me, you know, I had post bottom.
I didn't have psychosis, but I found out women who
have babies have post bottom. They don't have all that
love and good feeling and fuzzy for babies all the time.
(20:28):
Sometimes they want to put them in that oven. It
turned hot. You follow me, I do. In essence, what
I think Milton is saying is that most of the
people he defends, even when they've done heinous things, they're
human beings. They're not all sociopaths or monsters. They're people
who themselves have suffered or are suffering in some way
and trying to play the cards that they're dealt as
(20:49):
best they can. And maybe, you know, maybe folks from
these neighborhoods aren't as eloquent. And I studied about this
as you are. But they know, right, I mean, kids
who are growing up in Ramona Gardens in the early nineties,
they know that the system is not set up to
favor them. Right, that's right, they right, that's right. They
know cops don't respect them. They know cops don't treat
(21:11):
white kids and Beverly Hills or bell Air like they
treat them. You follow me and make them these fucking
these two judges in Pennsylvania that were kids for cash
juvenile justice, that's right. Yeah, they're selling these kids for
a traffic citation, six months in juvenile hall, in prisons,
six months, little kids they were putting in the criminal
(21:33):
justice system, and nobody doing anything about it. The clerks,
the bailiffs, they got kids. You're sitting there letting this
happen because it's not your son. He's skin is different
than yours, and you're letting these judges make millions of
dollars evilly doing evil. Yeah, but then these kids in
prison for money, and this is how how old is
(21:54):
Joe Morgan. When you met him in the nineties, you
counted up because I don't remember birthday, but met him
in ninety nine four, Morgan would have been in his
early to mid sixties. Yeah, he should have been taken
care of more and he which means that he came
of age in a time in Los Angeles where I
mean by you know, we see it in the movie
(22:16):
right with the zoot Suit Riots, right, I don't know
if you've seen recently, yes, sir, and I always go
back to, you know, during the zoot Suits Riots, the
Marie I'm sorry, the army guys in the sellers, they
were beating Chicanos and then they said, well, let's get
we beat the black too, and they started beating them
(22:36):
and there was It's in It's in the l A
Times because I used it in a lawsuit against the
Sea of Santa Monica for racial discrimination and voter rights
violation that we won. And part of it was the
research of the zoot Suit days with Chicanos. And believe
it or not, the brothers and the Chicanos got together
(23:00):
over in Compton, I think it was or what and
they entice them out because they had heard that there's
gonna be three bus loads of sailors coming to beat
the black's ass over and watch. I think it was.
And so they got together. It isn't you can research
it in the paper. They got together and they developed
(23:22):
attacked it. And they had two or three guys out
there going f you, f you come on them, and
they got them to charge them and come around the corner.
They were they they they've done away with a couple
of lovers. Yeah, it'sn't written about. And what I'm saying, man,
how do we lose that coalition? How do we lose
(23:44):
that support for one another brother because we got the
same enemy. Why they why you're letting them put us
against each other? Well, certainly part of it is that
you get sent to prison. You described it yourself. You said,
first the white people are the black people are on
the workout station and rotate. So you separate them like that,
and then you go back to society. And those are
(24:05):
the kinds of norms they're taking with your used to.
I did some cases out of Corkran during the gladiator
war that they had where six people got killed out
in the yard because they had the gladiator fights and
they would pit black against Mexican and and and brother
against brother, and they would kill each other and the
guards will be up there betting on it in the towers,
(24:27):
the glad looking up. And I represented two families who
had lost young men to that gladiator war. You're following me,
And we learned that I never forget. One of the
cases was we got the research the discovery on uh
the use how many times they had used the rifle
to shoot down in the yard. And on one occasion
(24:52):
the guy the guard had propped the rifle up against
something in it slid off and Paul went down and
ricochet and shot it. And they did an investigation said
that was a justified shooting. Oh my god. Yeah, that's
how they write it off. Man. It's like you said,
it's it shouldn't be surprising, but it's still, you know,
(25:13):
it's still You're like Jesus when it never ends. After
the break, we'll hear more about Joe Morgan the human
being and try to better understand whatever James almost got
right and wrong with j D in American Me. Welcome
(25:35):
back to More Than a Movie. I'm Alex Flomto, and
we're talking to criminal and civil attorney Milton Grimes, who
represented Mexican mafia member Joe Morgan. I asked Milton how
he thinks Joe Morgan should be thought of by the
general public as a human being, whether he was Croatian
or Portuguese or whatever. We all here with this one throughty. Second,
the skin that defines who we are for some dumbass
(25:58):
reason that makes no sense, and we are used. That's
used to keep us from getting to know each other.
But but culturally speaking here in l A, you know,
two is the year of American me comes out. It's
also the year of the So can you talk to
you know, there's young people maybe hopefully that are listening
(26:21):
to this. Can you can you tell them how that
that period was different in l A than it is
now or what it was like? Just what was that
period like in l A. And that can be as
simple as you know your client, right, starting with your client,
Rodney King. It's um, you know, I was probably been
practicing law then almost twenty years. I started in nineteen
(26:44):
seventy four, and um, you know it was kind of
a good time for me. I was doing well, uh
in the practice of law, and uh, I see the
Rodney King beating a friend of mine calls said, hey, man,
this guy got beat by the police and he's on
parole and they're calling the inn word and died out.
(27:07):
And I said, hey, bro, I really don't have time
for it because I'm in the middle of this trial.
His name was Ron Jesse. Used to play football with
the Rams. He was a wide receiver and he's ad. Man,
this guy is you know, he's a friend of mine,
nephew and he got beat pretty bad grimes. Can you
help him? I said no, I'm in trial, man, I'm
in trial with this brother on a double hummer side.
We're facing the death penalty. And he caressed out the
(27:28):
judge yesterday and because of the jury selection we were
going through and the eight excuse the only black possible juror,
he called the judge of racist redneck road wearing who
would wearing one to be Grand Wizard of the Clucuse Clan,
buckethead motherfucker. I said, I don't have time to deal
with another case right now, because I got to deal
with this crazy man. You follow me, and so he said, man,
(27:52):
but you know, I said, no, brother, I can't do it.
You know. Plus I get I see those cases all
the time and how we gonna prove that? They called
him the end word. And so I go home after
I leave the office and I'm changing clothes to go
to the gym, and I see this but the news
on them. Wow, they're beating this brothermdam. They got to
stop that ship in South Africa. This is unreal how
(28:14):
they do us? And that bus is too big to
be in South Africa. It's not one of them too.
That's the Oh, that's the key. That's what he called
me about. I saw this shaking almost something. That's that's history.
We finally caught the lock Ness monster. You follow me,
that beating that we never could prove, and the N
(28:34):
word that we never could prove. We tell brothers may
have brother but what am gonna do? You got five
cops that didn't happen that you tripped, you understand, and
got that dolldom broke them on. So what we But
now we got the lock next monster. So it was like, wow,
that was a ninety one. Finally got it. So when
(28:54):
I called him back and said, hey, hey, I am
not going to the gym. We need I need this case.
This is my if I was to design a case
in law school, it would be this case. This is
the epitome of our civil rights here. And I called
him back and he said, let me get back to you.
Coming back, said King's mama said she don't want you,
Johnny Cochrane associated with it because she don't want it
to be a race case. I go, at leastoud have
got the asshipping there, mama, that dog. So that was
(29:17):
my reaction, I'm being honest. So I didn't hear about
it until after the civil disorder. I heard about it
and heard from him in September of ninety two. But
that verdict and see me, Valley man Um, it felt
like a mu had kicked me in my stomach, you know,
like back in the country we always were warn don't
(29:38):
go behind that horseboard, don't go behind that mule, kick
you kill you. And it felt like I had been
kicked in the stomach. You know. It was painful. So
I understand the young people involved. Do you remember anything
about Edward James almost from that time. I only remember
that he had to go into seclusion because there was
(29:59):
alleged threats on his life. A couple of people were
killed because of the production of that movie depicting Joe
borgan in a non complementary fashion, or saying that certain
things happened to him that they didn't appreciate it appreciate
because it challenged his manhood and his sexual preference or sexuality,
(30:23):
or maybe he was a victim portrayed. I don't remember
the exact portrayal of what happened there, but it was like,
that can't happen, that's not a that's a no. Note,
that didn't happen. He would have never been the leader
of our organization if that was the case, And so
that's not true. I mean, look, homophobia still exists, just
(30:44):
as racism still exists. But what was the culture around
that kind of an accusation in those kinds of neighborhoods
here in l A. At that time, I believe in
the African American community, homosexuality was beginning to because of
the game members coming back from prison to be more
(31:04):
of an accepted uh uh devior for whatever better description.
There is behavior or a different behavior than it was
allegedly was in the Latino Hispanic community. Uh but I
(31:24):
understand now is accepted more so in the Hispanic community. Um,
but I probably didn't recognize that homosexuality was as much
of a taboo in the Hispanic community to I learned
(31:46):
that that was one of the primers of motivators for
why that movie was rejected. I mean, it's it seems
to me like Edward James almost in American was almost
using rape as like a scared straight tactic, right like
he he said he made that movie to basically end
(32:06):
gang violence, to stop kids the cycle of violence, kids
joining games. Do you think, like, does that work? I
don't think that would have been justifiable cause for doing that.
You can't take a man out of character for something
that's serious. And I know Hollywood justify based on a
true story with their creativeness in presenting their true story,
(32:31):
but I think it's a if you're gonna put the
true story or alleged that that's what it is, you
should stick as close to that as possible. And whatever
your personal or goal is, or your personal or acceptance
of things are, I don't think you should portrayed that
to someone if it doesn't have some quantum quality of
(32:54):
truth to it. Okay, I don't have any problem with
gays or home sexuality at all. I'm pretty sure and
much better than my old age than I was maybe
it used to bother me. If I saw two men
kissing two women kissing, I'm gonna damn, that looks good.
So that's just my bringing up. But people grow. Yeah,
(33:17):
my bringing up, my process and things. You follow me?
Uh so my kids? You know, I have relatives who
have same sex relationships. What's up? You know? Fine? Fine,
it's funny how I didn't know I could be that
easily accepted something that close. Sure, but it's okay. Do
(33:37):
you think that, like is does that actually work? Do
people actually decide not to commit crimes because they're afraid? No,
it's no more of a deterrent than it is for
killing somebody in a robberie or something, because they ain't
thinking about getting caught, and the death penalty is not
a deterrent. So almost sexuality show is not a deterrent, right,
and all the research will tell you that. Do you
(33:58):
think that that a movie like American Micke get made today?
We're in a time where there's notice difference in truth
in a lie. We're living in a time in our
history where a big lie becomes the truth. Uh. I
want to say we have more transparency now and more
(34:19):
determination to present the truth and we don't have to
hide behind pretending that's the truth, believe it or not.
I'm a lawyer, but I take my reputation, my credibility,
my integrity is based on me being believed, believe it
or not by judges, jurors, and other attorneys and people.
I really guard that that movie probably could be made today,
(34:43):
but I think that there would be more of an
immediate attack on the incorrectness of it and the inaccuracy
of it in the lie of it, I think, rather
than as letting it go because James almost is a
great actor and he's achieved in Academy Award or something
to whatever, and uh that that movie would be more
(35:03):
challenged today because of its inaccurate portrayal of the truth,
because we're more conscious about the lives that presented to
us today. On our next episode, I'm speaking with a
real Angelino, a Southeast l A native, Eric Galindo. In
(35:25):
addition to being a great journalist and podcaster, he's a
screenwriter who specifically writes about his experience as a Chicano
growing up in l A. I remember specifically arguments and
playground about like is that real? But they're really green
light of celebrity, Like, how are they even gonna get
to him? He's so famous, Like he's not you know,
he's not fucking on Florence. And the thing about like
(35:46):
the kids is like you hear the stories from like
your older siblings, you know, and like they become like
that game of Telephone where you know, by the end
it's like Edward James almost it's actually fucking a gangster. Now.
That's on the next episode of More Than a Movie American.
More Than a Movie American Me is a production of
(36:08):
Exile Content Studios in partnership with I Hearts, Michael Podcast Network,
and Trojan Horse Media. The show is produced by me
Alex Fometo at Angry Yuka on the Internets, and our
senior producer is Nigel Dora. Our executive producers are Rose Red,
Nando Vila and Kareem Taps. Production assistance from Sabine Jansen
and Octavio and Stella Emmett. Mixing and sound designed by
(36:29):
the waterlo Albornos. Our executive producers at I Heart are
Gisel Bansas and Arlene Santana. For more podcasts, listen to
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows,
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