Truce or Dare w/ Michele Fitzgerald

Tori and Aneesa are joined by Michele Fitzgerald to talk about that brutal injury during this week's terrifying challenge, her strategy going onto the show after winning Survivor, and her thoughts on being targeted by the vet alliance.

Watch new episodes of The Challenge every Wednesday, and go behind the scenes with Tori and Aneesa the next morning, on MTV's Official Challenge Podcast.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up everyone. I'm Tory and I'm Anissa, and this
is MTV's official Challenge podcast where we go behind the
scenes of the Challenge spies, lies and allies and cheese fries.
And on this episode, we'll be joined by a beast
of a competitor. She definitely put in the sweat, blood
and tears on this episode. Michelle Shelley Fitzgerald. M we're

(00:23):
gonna talk about all that cliff diving, the scheming, and
that explosive elimination in this week's episode. We better get
started than right. Oh all right, let's do it alright, Anissa,

(00:45):
it is not a chance today. Yeah, it's you're turned
to do the Time on It's the thirties. Last week
you did, Oh, Tory, It's the Time Mom, season thirty seven,
So you get thirty seven seconds to recap the episode.
I really think they should give you seventy four seconds. Yeah,
just so you don't have to start scatting in the

(01:06):
middle of it. But you know what, you go for it.
Let's go for it. Are you ready? They hired me
to scatt you know that. You know that's really why
I got hired. So it's okay, all right, I'm gonna
count you in. Okay, in three two one? All right, baby,
here we are in the episode, and that's right. I'm
gonna waste a few seconds right now just figuring out

(01:27):
what the hell I'm gonna talk about because everything happened
so fast. Let's talk about that Cliff Jump who didn't
want to do it. He didn't want to do it,
but what did He went in there and did it,
and then all of a sudden we see his butt
in the water like bam bam boom boozo. That's right,
he got that booty floating on the water looking good. Huey.
Let's talk about that, but for three more seconds that
we're going to continue to move forward as we find
out that Jeremiah and Tacha lose and go into elimination. Oh,
I'm so sorry. Some other things happen in the house,

(01:48):
but I already forget because I'm just so honestly petrified
that Tata's gonna scream at me again. I hated every
moment of that. I think we need to talk about
it in the episode because I've been worried about this
episode since the fucking end of the show. And he said,
let's just like stop doesn't get it on. Can we
do done? Petro petrof? I hate being yelled at? Oh
my god, I hated every moment of that. I really

(02:09):
did well. I think people don't know that you are
non confrontational Tory. I'm just not. I don't really like
to fight with people. And it's just so sad because
I really liked Tacha and I genuinely was not trying
to hurt her, and that's why I told her I
want to help if I can. It just ended up

(02:29):
not working that way because of all of the other
moving parts that go into making a decision before you
say somebody's name. So are we giving you the dirtiest
tea today? Are we moving away from that? Listen? I'll
take it, I honestly will take it because but I
think it's I think it's easier for one person to
give in at one person and single them out, think
get mad and everybody. I think it was easier to

(02:51):
get mad at you. I don't know if she knew
that her conversation with you wasn't a for sure, like
I'm going to give you who you want. But that's
why I said, it's not a guarantee. I can see
what I can do, and like that conversation happened, obviously
we're jumping right into that first and then we can
get into the rest of the episode because this is
the thing that's pressing on my mind the most. But

(03:11):
like that conversation I had with her that was right
after the deliberation, we obviously have to figure out what
guy and girl we're gonna put in. Right, we end
up throwing in Corey l because I had gone around,
I had talked to Nanni and Casey about potentially throwing
in a Manuel and potentially throwing in Gabbo. Both of
them asked me not to do that. You saw Devin
wanted me to throw in a Manuel so that he

(03:33):
was on my list first, so I, you know, was
gonna throw him in, but then they vouched for him,
and nobody was vouching for Corey. So it's like, all right,
if I don't want to piss off any of these vets,
so I'm going to do my best to just like
play cool and make the smart decision. And so when
it came time to throwing in a girl, and I
had felt bad because I was gonna say Corey's name,

(03:53):
it was like, all right, Corey, who do you want
to go in and compete with? And so Corey was like, listen,
I would love to say Shell's name, but I don't
want to. I don't want you to have to throw
her in again. But I still want a strong competitor.
So I would love to go in with burnout. I mean,
I feel bad, you know, like I don't. I just
feel bad because I don't want touch you to think
it was a personal thing. But okay, let's get into
the rest of the episode, because that was just a

(04:14):
segment of it. Let's talk about that daily challenge. It
was absolutely hard. It was called the c Cave recon
down in the Dave Cave, and he said in the
Dave Babe Cave, when I tell you, like, I've swam
in some waters on this show, I've swam against rough current,
I've swam in freezing cold, one degree glacier water and

(04:34):
killed it. This was a different type of scary drowning.
Couldn't have done it without a life best type of swim. Yeah,
it was one that exhausted my whole entire bot. I
mean I got out of the the water and I was
like wearing my legs. Yeah, it was exhausting. I mean
fighting through that current. It was just like everything was

(04:55):
against you from every angle. Yeah, and it was it
was scary. And then you had you had this moment
on a jet ski where you thought you were getting
a break, but it was like, no, it really didn't help.
And you started with jumping off a cliff. It's not
like when t J tell drops you from some shit
or like you're swinging and you fall, like you have
to make this conscious decision that you are going to

(05:18):
commit and jump. We didn't even get to talk about
play of the day, but I'd like to give it
to Huey. How do you feel about that? Huie was
so so I was up there with Hue and you know,
we didn't go first, we went forth, I think, but yeah,
Huie was puking and freaking out. I mean we were
up there for a good ten minutes and he was

(05:39):
freaking out. So that made me feel a little bit
better because I was like, I was a little scared,
but Hughey's really scared. When he got in the water,
he was out, like he didn't care where Ashley was.
I've never he was out. I think Hue never gives
himself enough credit. Yeah, he's so much account himself. Yeah
he is. Yeah, yeah, like he was out. Yeah, I

(06:01):
just was in the cave. I was like, wait for me.
I also find it interesting and this is just one
of those little things that I noticed. After he puked
a little bit out of nerves, understandable, Ashley kisses him
on the lips. I saw that too. What a partner,
What a partner, because whoa wouldn't have done? Ashley like
in that moment, really was like that, I'm gonna kiss

(06:22):
you. You You know you're you're afraid and I am a
little disturbed by it, but respect it. I do. If
that's what you gotta do to call him your Parker down,
fuck it. And Logan's just cool as a cucumber up there,
just sucking like decy is what I love. I loves
I love the ocean, I love the waves. You and
Logan as a partnership. I wish that we got to
see more of those intimate conversations because you guys just

(06:43):
are such a great team. All I do is speak
in Spanish and they get told not to speak. I know,
but that's it's really amazing, Like you could just tell
that when he's with you, you do bring a sense
of home to him, like you make him feel very comfortable. Yeah,
it was awesome to be depended on for that. Um,
trying to explain rules in Spanish. Challenges are confusing in English. Yeah,

(07:05):
trying to understand a game and then have to speak
tell it in another language. I mean, yeah, it's difficult.
But this was definitely one of the harder, one of
the harder challenges. And I don't know why I think
that TJ may like take it easy on us, like
there are some people that can't swim, or some people
that have never done a challenge before, like keep it.

(07:25):
You know, this was just risky. You know, there was
just like a lot of a lot of I know
I had bruises and blood. I know Tommy got a concussion.
I don't know if Logan was bleeding. I mean everybody
got like cut up. Michelle. Yeah, it's just I mean
there's a lot of injuries this season so far. Yeah,
and more to come. It's definitely not easy. I mean

(07:47):
we really put our bodies through a lot. And not
only do we go through a lot while we're competing,
we definitely go through a lot mentally while we're in
the house and you know, we got to see that
clip of Nelson and Burnet and Ashley and that kind
of growing and exploding a little bit. I mean, listen,
when you have feelings for somebody and you're in that

(08:07):
house and you see a guy with another girl, it
doesn't matter how long you've been talking. You can't escape it.
You can't get up and go to the mall, you
can't go to the gym. You are stuck in that
house with those people. So I have nothing against either
one of Ashley or Burnett in this situation specifically, like, yeah,
but they didn't even I mean, Burnett didn't even know right.

(08:28):
It's not beginning. It's really it's not a place blame. Yeah,
it is Nelson's fault. It could have been a little
bit more forthright with these women. It is kind of confusing.
You know. My heart goes out for anybody who does
feel like they have to watch somebody that they have
feelings for hook up with somebody else. Like, that's never
a good feeling. It's the fucking worst. Okay, it's terrible, Yeah,
damn it, it is horrible. Yeah, especially when you're just

(08:51):
stuck in the house with them. I mean, you can't
do anything about it. So let's get into Tommy. Because
while Tommy is getting dropped off to swim, CT is
making his way over there with Berna. Yeah, CT pulls
down his pants and we just think it's hilarious. Right

(09:11):
then Tommy gets up and his shorts are out his
ankles and I'm like, damn Tommy trying to yeah, and
I mean everything was out. We had no idea that
he was concussed. Yeah, we were laughing. We thought it
was a joke and they had no idea how serious
it was. I mean, I was like, go, Tommy, this

(09:33):
is hilarious. Ah. He's such a trooper too, and such
a good guy. Like I know, a lot of people
weren't really sure where Tommy stood. They found him to
be a threat. Obviously he's very athletic and had one survivor,
but his energy was so so sweet. He was such
a nice guy. So we shout out a big red,
shout out a big red. He's I really hope that

(09:54):
he gets the opportunity to come back and really, you know,
actually compete longer than he did this time, because I
think his injuries always suck. Getting metal medically to cute
sucks because it's like, yeah, you didn't mean it, and
it's not like you lost, and then you just sit
at home with like fomo. Right. Yeah, so Tommy ends

(10:16):
up going home, and obviously Big Tea is left now
without a partner, and so this kind of leaves Big
Tea a little exposed because obviously, yeah, and you know
what's interesting is like I thought about throwing Big Tea
in for sure, but you see, you saw how Kyle
pledged for her, and he even goes deeper into that pledge.

(10:38):
He literally says if you throw her in, the game's on,
and they it's kind of a threat. So I was like,
all right, well, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna piss
off Kyle, who's somebody that I'm working with in this game.
I'm not going to piss off Devin, who's also somebody
I'm working with in this game. So Big Tea is
actually not the best route to go. And also maybe

(11:00):
if I don't throw her in right now, it'll give
us the opportunity to create a friendship in the future. Listen,
Like it felt good to scare her a little bit
to you know, like put the burner on and like,
oh am, I gonna do it, But the truth is,
it didn't make sense to do it, and I'm happy
now that I didn't because me and Big Tea have
been able to create a really beautiful friendship. But I
absolutely love her like I love her. I absolutely love

(11:24):
her like she is an incredible person to be around.
So I'm happy to got the opportunity. Yeah. I mean,
when we were quarantining, I we you love the seagulls.
I just tolerated them because you're my best friend and
I want to support you in your love of animals,
especially thank you seagulls. And then I found out and
we moved in. Guess who else loves seagulls? Also, you know,

(11:46):
she just doesn't want to waste food, Big Tea. Yeah,
So you guys had so much uncommon before all of that,
So I'm glad you guys got the chance to to
give it give it another go. Yeah. So she was
kind of off the table for getting thrown in. But obviously,
let's take it back to this deliberation. Tatcha and Jereby
get voted in by the House and the excuse was

(12:08):
basically that they didn't perform well. It was just kind
of an easy thing to say. But the truth is
all the vets, we're just looking for another rookie, rookie
pair to go in. We were trying to really get
in those numbers. We were trying to make sure that
we clinched it and we were good moving forward. Do
you like how he's the word clinched there. Yeah, I'm
not really sure if it clinched. No, Like we clinched
it like we got the clinch like in kickboxing when

(12:30):
you clinch, you like grab it by the head and
we bah, you know, so we gave it a clinch.
I don't know how we went Ham to the wall.
We went Ham to the wall. We gave it a
good rookie clinch. We needed to get the numbers. So anyway,
we got two more rookies into elimination. Now it's up
to me and Ed to throw in more rookies. And
then this is where obviously the whole thing comes down.
I already explained myself. I am sorry, Tatcha. I'm going

(12:51):
to slide into your DMS and apologize again. I hope
that we can clear this up, and if not, then
all right, I understand. But Burna ends up going in
and I even go up to Burna before elimination and
I'm like, hey, there's a good chance it's going to
be you, and she was scared, but I was like,
I just want to give you a heads up and
she was like, okay, thank you and took it like

(13:13):
a champ and most pain. I think it was the
perfect thing for her too, especially with her background. Dude,
she absolutely crushed that elimination. I mean it was I mean,
you guys don't know. It was so difficult. I mean
we were there for over an hour. Yeah, I mean
I was rooting for either girl at that time because
it wasn't a personal thing. It was just about getting
the clinch on those numbers to make sure that the

(13:35):
Vets high. I can't word of the day. It's clinched
by Tori deal. I'm gonna look, I'm googling it right now.
I'm fucking googling it. So the partners switch up a
little bit, because even though Berna sticks with CT, big
Tea is now with Jeremiah, we're really losing rookie rookie
pairs now, Like this season is going to be super interesting.

(13:55):
The Vets are really tiptoeing around everything that we possibly
can to make sure that we are all staying out
of elimination as long as possible, which is very cool.
We're working with each other as best as possible. But
you know how this game goes, there's bad blood and
sometimes in resources. So yeah, we'll see what. Stay tuned. Yeah,
but I'm excited because this week we get to talk

(14:16):
to Michelle. And Michelle is an incredible competitor and I
think she'll have a lot of insight. Not only did
she compete well on the challenge, she's one survivor before
and it's just an awesome person, like such a sweetheart, Michelle.
I can't wait to talk to her. All right, going
to talk to her yesterday, but I'd like to talk
to her again today. So stay tuned, guys. After the

(14:38):
short break, we're going to get into an interview with Michelle.
All right, everybody, Well, now it's time for our favorite
part of the podcast, where if you get to interview
somebody who was a part of this amazing production, and
this person is a survivor winner herself, this insane rookie

(15:00):
who can pull off a nosebleed better than anybody I've
ever seen in my life. Welcome Michelle. Oh my god,
I was off Survivor. I had no idea. Oh my gosh,
shut up, dude, You're incredible. Like this episode for you.
I wish people could have seen you in that water,
like I had the opportunity of being next to you,
and like Ed talks about it a little bit, but

(15:23):
you're unbelievable. Were like, I don't need to scare you,
but like you're gushing blood. I'm like, I had no idea.
I was like, I'm sick, I am cooked in blood.
Look at that, dude. Was it scary for you, like
when you recognize that was happening. I was just thinking like,
oh my god, it's my nose broken. Because then I

(15:43):
was like, great, now I have to feel with black eyes.
That's a whole tragedy on TV. But you know, I
just had that little, like kind of clown nose moment.
Original was more funny than anything, though. I thought it
was great because when you showed me the stitches, like
it really wasn't bad. I had to get up in
your nostrils to be able to see it. Like we
got real close. I'm like, come here, show show me
what's going on under there, and you were like, here,

(16:04):
it is I'm like, it's not too bad. And you know,
having a little war wound from the challenge isn't isn't
a bad thing makes you look more badass than anything.
At Least you came out of the water with all
your clothes on, true, I know, unlike some other people
I was. I still left with my dignity intact somehow.
But I was like, can you just flap some blue
on this thing and call it a day? They're like,

(16:25):
that's not how it works, honey. Yeah, were you worried
about like possibly being medically dcute, because I know sometimes
stitches can be like sometimes people can't go and water
with stitches, so like, were you just nervous that this
was going to be worse than what it was? My
mind did not even go there. I wasn't even processing it.
I was really just like, let's just like get this
thing handled, wrap it up, and let's let's get on

(16:47):
with it. Like I really was just trying to move
right along and not maybe it. But that's definitely one
of that definitely was one of those challenges where like
I got all the water, my leg was gash my hand.
Those rocks were no fun joke. You didn't even realize
in the moment, I mean, chalk it up to adrenaline.
But like, I mean, Tommy got a concussion, you were

(17:07):
you got your nose. I was bleeding, My partner was bleeding.
I boogies everywhere. I mean, it was not pleasant. It
was not very pleasant. And something that wasn't shown was
that when I had went to the medical kind of
van or whatever a post Jeremiah was in there suffering
from hypothermia, so like he had a whole thing around him.

(17:27):
He was shaking, like all color out of him. It
was crazy. So it was everybody was kind of struggling
in that challenge. It was way harder, really hard. Yeah,
and in that you're somebody who's a really good swimmer,
So like for somebody like Jeremiah who doesn't actually have
the experience of being a great swimmer, Like I can't
even imagine how hard it was for him because and

(17:50):
so were insane. And that's like you're already so panicked
when you have somebody kind of clinging on you in
that environment, Like I'm sure that it just amplified everything. Yeah,
I think that's but that's the first I mean, they
teach you in lifeguarding like, well, people when you swim
up to somebody and they're gonna drown, like the first
thing they think about is holding on to you, no
matter what it's gonna do. And Jeremiah, I think it's

(18:11):
that point where like you don't want to look like
a punk on the challenge. You'd be like, I'm not
gonna jump. I'm scared, like I can't really swim. You're
not gonna say that, you just jump in, right. He
definitely pulled a swaggy moment where you just jumped in
the water, whether you could swim or not, said effort,
here I go, and then they just they just were
like two snails on a rock. Yeah, yeah, they were.

(18:31):
I think that. You know, there were people who didn't
do so well, but there were people who did really well,
and you and Corey absolutely crushed it. What was your
strategy going into this mission? Well, the strategy is not
exactly how it panned out. We were gonna have Cory
do the bulk of the swimming, but once we were
in the water, I was just like like a bullet
out of the gun and they just kind of shot

(18:53):
and that wasn't the plan. So I don't know, you
go in with intention and a game plan, and then
that all was at the windows is you are actually
in it. So it didn't that way, And honestly, like
you guys, ed was moving so quickly there was just
no shot of us ever. But we were pushing each other,
which I thought was really good and I think that's

(19:13):
why we did so well. Some of the other heats
were a little bit unbalanced, and that's not pushing you
to move back. Are you saying? What are you? What
are you saying? Was that directed? Was that directed towards anyone?
Because I know my backstroke was exquisite. Yeah, but that's
a hard thing to say if you could swim or not,
because it was like every every wave that could have.

(19:33):
There was also strategy because I know Logan and I
swam together the whole time. He didn't wait for me
at the beginning, like I waited for him to get
the bat or like an idiot the bomb and then
like then I swim. So I mean it's also a
matter of strategy to like what you guys do who
went in the cave, who didn't write? I mean, yeah,
and it plays apart, but if you're a good swimmer,
it definitely helps. Yeah, and I think, um, for sure,

(19:57):
being a good swimmer helps. But like going into it,
the strategy that me and Ed had was we knew
that Ed was a better swimmer, so it's like, Ed,
go get that first bomb, give me the bomb, all
follow behind you. Then you go get the other bomb,
then you bring it back. So a lot of the
work was really dependent on Ed being such a great swimmer.
And honestly, it was so crazy because we ended up
only finishing like a second before you guys, like, we
were so so so close. But you know, I think,

(20:18):
and you don't get to see a lot of the
behind the scenes conversations that happened after this episode that
lead up to why I didn't end up putting you
into elimination. And it had a lot to do with
the fact that I was like, well, Michelle was incredible.
There's a good chance she's gonna win. If we cut
a deal. We didn't even cut a deal. Yeah, we
cutting a deal. I feel like we cut a deal.
We sat in the bathroom, we were like, we really

(20:40):
like you, Michelle. Yeah, so anyway we could all work together,
you would agree. For me, it did feel like cutting
a deal because Anissa, like on a personal level. Me
and you were really close in the house, like really
really like just really good friends. Honestly, you were with Tory,
and so for me, I was like, well, I don't
honestly know who I'm moving forward in this game with

(21:02):
right now. And I was like, if you scratch my back,
all scratchers, because right now nobody is scratching my back,
and like, I would love somebody to, you know, extend
a hand, and I ever have power, I would love
to repay that. So that was the closest that I
was coming to cutting deals in. It was our bathroom
triangle truth Yeah, it was our bathroom triangle truths. Yeah.

(21:25):
How do you feel like Survivor prepared you for the challenge?
I think in general, they're they're actually really similar in
regards of like the social dynamics. It's so important to
be able to go in create those connections and use
those connections kind of leverage your position in the game.
And so I was definitely leaning on that. But in Survivor,

(21:46):
I was always kind of underestimated, and this season I
came in with a big target on my back. It
was like role reversal. So it was really hard playing
from that position. And I wish that I didn't have
the title of Survivor winner. It's challenge, could have done
without it, I would say, would have made my life
a lot easier. I think, yeah, I think you're absolutely
right about that because I think everyone liked you. But

(22:09):
it was like, damn, she's smart, you know, and you
were smart. You saw from episode one when you're in
the room talking to Michaela, like you talk about the numbers,
you know, how the game's moving. You also talk like
a lot of your interviews about how you're like I
know how to dumb down what I am because you
don't want to show everybody like you're You're amazing, you
really are. So I think it was just like it's

(22:29):
it's hard to hide being that amazing, especially when you
have a champ title next to your name in some capacity.
Even if she didn't win Survivor, I'd still watch out
Michaela didn't win, and I still was like, yeah, like
I said before, I'm like, you know, you live under
a leaf and you eat a twig, like it takes
it takes a certain kind of person to do Survivor. Yeah,
And I think that kind of mental toughness where like

(22:52):
there isn't a mansion where you can like hide somewhere
in the gym or like everything's kind of out in
the open. So we are already knew well I already knew.
Walking in, I'm like, okay, she's she's smart, Like, let's
not put anything past her. Yeah, but you know, I
think there was so much going on it was really
hard to to try and welcome other people in when

(23:15):
we have like such a large group of people that
we were trying to protect. Yeah, you know, and it
just sucked. I wish you hadn't been We talked about
it like wish you weren't a rookie, which she just
looks your first season. I could just be like, but
she's my friend, come on, I know a topic. Guys,
I think too. Like part of it was I was thinking, like, okay,
there's no way that at this point, I see the

(23:37):
way the tide is turning, and I know that I'm
a target, and so I was trying to appeel to
people in the way that it's like, well, elevated people
elevate people like we can be smart and strategic together
and we can you know, actually like make decisions that
can move us through this game. As a parent, I
was trying to appeal to people that way rather than

(23:59):
you know, my Survivor game, you dumb yourself down and whatever.
And I was like, that's not going to work here,
so we have to try to another plan. So I
was like, well, why don't I just try to appeal
to people, saying like, well, you, why don't we be
in an alliance, like let's I'll have your back and
we can actually strategize and pull off some really cool moves.
So I was, but people would kind of see that,

(24:20):
but there was no at the point that we're in
breaking that that bet alliance. It was just no breaking in.
So if we hadn't made that pact, I think that
slid Michelle into the third spot and oh yeah, that
would have been easy, because yeah, we were like split.
It was there was a split inside the bet alliance
if you didn't notice, but I honestly did not know

(24:41):
where everybody was standing. So for me, I was also
trying to tiptoe around making sure that you know, I
didn't say the wrong like assume that somebody was rolling
with you guys that wasn't rolling with you guys, And
then I let something slip. So I was trying to
tiptoe my way through the game, which is really tricky
when you all exactly know where everybody stands in the dynamics.

(25:02):
So that's that advantage of being a rookie for sure,
because you're like trying to understand the rookies, we're also
trying to understand the Vets. In the past history. You
guys had done how many seas together? So do you
did you think, like watching it back now, do you
did you realize at the time how strong the VET
alliance was? For sure one hundred percent. As soon I

(25:24):
mean I saw the writing on the wall, as soon
as it was two rookie rookie pairs I saw. I
also noticed that the rookie is what the people who
were going into elimination. And I think I had, obviously
being into elimination, maybe a little bit more insight on
this about how the Vets were trying to convince the
rookies that if they were coming out to choose a

(25:46):
rookie VET pair and alienate the rookie so that it
would be the rookie rookie pairs. So that was writing
on the wall to me that they were trying to
create these rookie rookie kind of a lot pairs in
order to kind of pick everybody off. So that was
where the red flags for me came in. So I'm
sure it was hard though, because it was like, you know,

(26:08):
we had talked, but now tom is gone and he's
one of your biggest allies. So I'm sure that kind
of threw a wrench in your game too, because it's
like Michelle Party of One. Oh, it really it is
how I felt. And I know, you know, we were
all bunk buddies and we talked about this a lot,
and I know, Tori, you had facilitated like a game

(26:29):
like about talking three words about how you feel or whatever.
Do you remember that? Yeah, like alienated because honestly, like
I had Nom and then Nom left, and then I
had an alliance with my Survivor people, and then MICHAELA
turned on me, and then I had Tommy, and then
Tommy got dcuted. So every week I just felt like
I was like just kind of swimming upstream. It was

(26:51):
like nothing is going my way. That's really how it felt.
And it was super alienating. I felt like people wanted
to work with me, and yet I somehow was still
always alone. So it was really that was challenging. Well
to make you feel better. Devin was one of your
biggest advocates. Uh. I think he knew how smart you were,
and he was definitely like Michelle, Michelle Michelle, so know

(27:13):
that you know, people definitely wanted to. It was a
matter of like making the first move, you know what
I mean, It was just like, do you do you
betray people that you've known forever for somebody who who
you think is better. Yeah, it's a it's a it's hard.
It's hard. It is hard, and I understand. Honestly. All

(27:34):
I can say is if I put myself in your shoes,
I would do the exact same fucking thing. So, like
I don't, I just I recognize game at this point.
I mean, this is my third reality competition series I've
played with all winners. Like I know, if if the
tide is turning away, that's gonna allow you to get
further in the game, then that's the way we're gonna go.

(27:56):
I often really no value honestly if you're looking it
that way. So, I mean I get it, and I
just kind of understood my position and dealt with it. Yeah,
And I think that that was so clear, and like
every single time you were at the nomination or deliberation,
I mean you always talked with great conviction and then
also address and you just address on fact. You just

(28:20):
addressed what was going on really well, and you handled
it like an adult. And I think that's something I
really respect because a lot of people can get super
emotional when they play this game, because obviously it's emotional.
You know, nobody wants to get thrown in, but when
you can separate it, it's really refreshing to watch someone
be able to handle it that way, because nobody wants
to hurt anybody. Like this is a game. It's not

(28:41):
supposed to be something that's painful. I mean, you want
to outsmart and out with your opponents, but like you
want to, it's refreshing to watch somebody who can take
it on so well. And so I'm just curious, like,
do you think the nominations in Survivor prepared you to
be prepared for the ones on the challenge? I think
so too degree. I mean you have to know how

(29:01):
to handle kind of being under the gun in a
really high stress situation. And it's also like you're trying
to run the numbers in your head, and you have
to in travel counsel, people let things slip when they're
asked questions that should tell you kind of where the
votes are going, and so you have to kind of
read the words or the messaging underneath the words. And

(29:23):
I think it's really important, especially when people are about
to vote, whether or not you're going in, you can
kind of pick up on the way that things are going.
So I do think it helped in that way. But
every vote so far seemed really obvious to me, So
I mean I think everybody so it wasn't There was
no real shockers and deliberation besides, like people continuously throwing

(29:46):
me under the bus, right, So when Tacha call on
your name during this week's nomination, did that come out
of nowhere? I mean how you said one word to
Tacha like, were you guys even cool? Me and Tacha
like didn't have any b but we also weren't close.
And so for me, like I would have done probably
the same thing if you're under the gun, and Devin

(30:08):
is saying, if not you who you better have a
name locked and loaded. And we were the low hanging fruit,
and I understood that, and Corey was getting heated. I mean,
he's coming from Twelve Days of Christmas. He's never played
a game like this. If somebody's coming for him, he
is taking it personal right off the jump. For me,
I was like, I get it. I get what's going on.

(30:29):
I see you have to put a name out there.
I know the writings on the wall that you're going
in no matter what, I already knew that was happening.
So for me, I was just like, I get it.
We're gonna move along. You had to say a name.
I was that person. But that's an uncontrollable. What is
controllable is what happens after that. And that's why I
was grateful to have a conversation with you and Ed

(30:50):
because that's something that I can control. So I mean
I felt bad for Tacha because she had to say
someone and then she got kind of attacked for them.
So I mean, it's but it's like you said, you know,
when you're under the gun, you people are going to
do it, and you explained that so well when you're
in there, I think that's just like I mentioned it before,
I'll say it again. That's what makes you a really
remarkable person to watch because so many people don't know

(31:13):
how to logically handle those situations, so it's just refreshing.
But I think also with like for your rookie season,
you really are dealing with a lot of heat, Like
you have to constantly worry is it gonna be me
this week? They've already said my name before, and like,
can you just give us a little insight into what
that stress is like being curious if it's going to

(31:33):
be you again? I mean, it's so the paranoia. It's
hard to describe the feeling of paranoia, but imagine it.
Like you're all of your friends are going to the
mall and you didn't get the invite and you're just
kind of like, wow, I feel rejected. I feel like

(31:54):
paranoid that they're talking about me, Like why didn't I
get invited? Did I do something wrong at lunch? Like
you don't really know? And I feel like for me,
I was walking around on pins and needles all day.
Every day. I had to watch everything that I was
saying to every single person. I was trying not to
walk into rooms where people were talking about me. It
was just on edge. It's just really an uncomfortable feeling constantly. Yeah,

(32:18):
it's hard to deal with, Like I've had to deal
with it before, and I think so many of the
vets who played the game multiple times have been in
that seat before, so we all have compassion for it.
But god, it's so nice to not be on that side,
I know. But you know what paranoia makes people do
crazy things? Yeah, because like that's when you're the most vulnerable,
when you're paranoid, And so to be able to like

(32:41):
control that paranoia and keep a level head is something
that will allow you to move through the game further.
Because as we see somebody like Nikaela, she's paranoid, but
she acts irrationally. Oftentimes when you're paranoia, you do tend
to lash out, act irrational, speak up, get into arguments,
whatever it is. If you can keep a level head
in that paranoia, then you might be able to find

(33:03):
a way to squeeze your way out of it. So
that's always my outlook, Like, don't freak out, because there's
always crazy shit that happens in these games. You never know.
Can I just touch on this michaela thing actually, because
I still don't know what to believe about this list,
and I feel like people's stories are a little different.
What is the story, like what was actually on the list.

(33:25):
So I'll tell you from my perspective, I think that
I have. I mean, I think I'm fairly like reliable
resource here. But basically, we were all sitting in the
bunk beds. I was going to bed because I felt
like we had been on a seven day bender at
this point. I'm fucking tired. But michaela, you know, had

(33:47):
felt the pressure of being a rookie rooie pair, which
I totally get. And so we were all up there
and she was basically writing down who she thought we
could potentially rowny to kind of overturned the tides and
shifted on somebody else. So she's writing down you know, Tatcha, esther, whoever,
you know, whoever she thinks she has. Then on the

(34:10):
other side, she's writing down people who she definitely thinks
that she could not sway that nobody would, the people
who would not vote with us. So Emmy was there,
Emmy saw the list. But I think what Emmy did,
and I think it's really smart of her, was that
she had weaponized the list, saying like, Okay, yes there's
a list, but there's also like a target list, and

(34:32):
that puts people even further on edge when they hear
that their name is a target. Necessarily from my perspective
that there was actually a target. It was more like,
do we have the numbers here to actually make something happen?
And that's what I remember. It seems valid. Yeah, because
the list, the list isn't the scary thing. I don't
care about that as much as if you're just needing

(34:54):
an excuse. Yeah, it made it easy for people, Yeah,
of course, but you guys also had to do what
you had to do. And if I were an Emmy's position,
I probably would have done the exact same thing. You
try to find reasons to ship the target off of
you and put it on somebody else. And it was
a great Honestly, I thought it was great for her

(35:18):
to do if at that point we could not have
gotten the numbers. I don't care what anybody says. Yes,
the rookies outweighed the Vets, but the rookies were partnered
with the Vets. The rookies were tied in two Vets.
On a personal level, like, there was no way would
be able to rally the numbers. Really, so by Emmy
kind of flipping over and weaponizing the list. I thought
it was smart. So if you could go back to

(35:42):
the beginning, would you still have a Survivor alliance or
would you have tried to do something different? Yeah, I
would still have a Survivor alliance. I am so proud
of my journey on Survivor, and I think that I'm
really integral part of that Survivor community, and I wanted
to make that community proud. I wanted them to watch
us and be rooting for us as a team. Yeah.

(36:04):
I went in honestly with the best intentions for that trio,
and I don't particularly think that I did anything wrong.
I mean, so I wouldn't have changed it. If I
could go back time and time again, I would still
try to make that happen. But it didn't work out,
so good to know. I like that. And I think
Tommy and Michaela also like did not get along on

(36:27):
a personal level, and that was really hard kind of
being in the middle of two people that did not
like each other. I think that's so interesting because like
we didn't really get to see that. But I guess
it's just those like intricate moments that people have, like
when they do you vibe or do you not and
like if you're working with somebody who's from Survivor and
trying to like create numbers together but you don't really vibe.

(36:48):
It's kind of like, ed, well, you know, how strong
is this? And like the Vets, even though we have
this super alliance right now, I mean, that's going to
happen to the Vets too, Like it's just a matter
of time because like when you don't really when it
comes down to you or somebody else, or you and somebody,
when it comes down to you voting for somebody you
like and somebody you don't, you're kind of always going

(37:09):
to follow your heart. Like it was truly a matter
of time before that broke down because at the gate
they didn't like each other really, and so I was
kind of trying to constantly keep the Blue together and
be like but Tommy working with Mikaela, just suck it
up and do whatever. Same thing with Mikaela, Like Kayla,

(37:29):
you just have to blind me trust him, like please,
But the cracks were there, and all it took was
a list to kind of make it really fracture. Yeah, well,
you've already done some incredible things this season, even though
it's just the beginning because you've had a lot of
heat on your back. But with heat comes glory. So
you've gone into your first elimination and you went in

(37:51):
with Koreel. What was it like being called down for
the very first elimination? Oh god, no, I have two
things for your Anissa ran away. Anisa literally left the
chat chat. I was scared, don't do that, you know,
no, no no, no, listen, I duck. I told you, like

(38:15):
I could. I cannot even be more you know, obvious
about the fact that I do separate the game, and
it was a game move, and I didn't take it personally.
I was just like, okay, like Survival was under a
lot of heat. Logan didn't want to say Emmy's name.
I got it, but I was shitting my pants. I

(38:35):
was like, I do not want to be the first
person to go out of this game. I have game
left in me that I want to play, and so
nobody wants to be the first one out. So for me,
I was just like, oh, really, like off the bat,
we're doing this. So know how Logan said it first right,
be a man of him. But for me, I was
just like, you know what now, I kind of got

(38:55):
it out of the way and the fear of like
going down seemed a little bit less scary after kind
of doing it once, So I think that that helped
me kind of throughout the game, kind of curbed by
paranoia a little bit. So yeah, and then you just
like then you just have like a little pocketbook of paranoia,
like a little clutch. Yeah, and not a whole luggage,

(39:17):
you know, a whole suitcase of paranoia. Yeah, will come
and definitely come and go. But yeah, someone who's been
in nine thousand eliminations, it doesn't get easier, but you
do well, I guess you don't get as paranoid about it,
but like it gets a little bit more comfortable to
be down there, Like once you get it in and
you're like, oh, yeah, I just did that, so now

(39:38):
come fuck with me. Yeah, and think about it coming
from a perspective of like a rookie, like you're seeing
this pit, there's fire going off, You're like, oh my god,
I have to be strapped, like this is due or
die time. Like it is terrifying when you've never done
it before and having done it, like and knowing that
you have a partner as well. And this season was

(39:59):
such a relief because then it's not all on you. Yeah,
he's another stressor. So having my side was like for me,
nest like Golden. It also put your fade in somebody
else's hands though, too, so it's you know, it's a
double double sword there, Corey. Yeah, Corey had a lot

(40:19):
of respect for you and the way that you did
that elimination, And it's so interesting. You don't see any
of these conversations this episode. But obviously we end up
throwing in Corey. And we knew we were going to
throw in Corey pretty early, like after touching Jeremiah got
put in. Then we walked around the house at and
I did, and we really figured out the best option.
A lot of people wanted us to throw in a man,
while a lot of people wanted us to throw in

(40:41):
like Gobbo or somebody that hasn't been in yet. But
Corey just came with the least baggage. Nobody was really
protecting him, so it was the easiest and he had
already been down there, so it was the easiest target.
And so I talked to Corey, you know, I told
him face to face. I was like, hey, I'm so sorry,
this is just kind of what we're dealing with right now,
and this is the best thing that I can do
for my game. And I'm sorry to you, but you know,

(41:01):
I'm interested to know who would you want to go
in against. I feel bad that I'm throwing you in again,
So who would you like as your partner? That's what
I meant to say, And Corey said, you know, I
would love to go with Michelle, but I feel because
I trust her and I think she's an incredible competitor,
but I feel so bad because she already went in there,
and obviously you had just busted your nose open on
that challenge, and that was something to really factor in.

(41:22):
It's like, you know, am I going to throw Michelle
in after she just busted her face open? Like I
got to compete against her, saw how incredible you did.
Really had a lot of respect for you after that
and before that. But how can you not respect yourself
as a competitor after you see how well you performed
that day? And then it was like, all right, well,
Corey was like, if you're not going to throw her,
and please give me somebody that's a strong competitor like Burna,

(41:44):
And so Corey even was like even though he wanted
to work with you because we thought it was going
to be a partner elimination. Nobody thought I mean, maybe
it was going to be just a girl. But we
don't know you. But we don't know anything. They could
have brought in somebody else. What if they brought now
I'm back in or something we didn't know. So it's
just better to just go with what you're given instead

(42:05):
of trying to anticipate whatever curveball can be thrown at you.
So Corey really looked out for you, and he was like,
I really want to work with Michelle, but at the
same time, don't want her to have to go in.
And so I think that you guys probably created that
bond after you did win your first elimination together totally,
and I felt like Corey didn't really have anybody. I
think he felt alienated and I think I felt alienated,

(42:26):
and we just kept we were like magnets. We kept
trying to pull apart from each other, and we'd always
end up back together. And so I think the universe
was just like saying, like, this is your journey that
you're going to ride out together, and we just tried
to make the best of it, And I think Corey
is such a good person and he stands for a
lot of things that I also stand for, and so

(42:47):
and he had such respect for me, like, honest to god,
he made me feel so strong and so powerful and
so respected that like that's all you want at partner, Like,
partner's dynamic is so important. And I love to be
Devin's partner, but we did not have the best partner dynamic.
I love Devin, but we're both really strong headed and

(43:08):
we both wanted our opinions to be heard and valued,
and that was not working for us. I think, gotcha. Yeah,
so I being with Cory was definitely like a better
fit partner wise. But yeah, and I also just think,
like you said, you're just somebody who's a really strong competitor,
so right, if you're going to have your opinions about something,

(43:29):
you're going to speak up. I'm somebody who likes to
take a back seat, Like I'm happy to be a
workhorse and not the strategist in a partnership. So it's
funny because when I'm working with Cory, both of us
were kind of like, Okay, what are we going to do?
You know? And I definitely enjoy being the back seat,
because strategy is not not my fucking thing. Man, I
told you want to like for me, like, I don't

(43:51):
need to be the one driving the direction of things,
but I want to chat it out. I want to
be like, I want somebody who's bringing it the same
level as me, where we can be like, all right,
here's my gun, and then some people will come back
and be like no, no, no, not that. And here's why, right,
Devin wanted it to be a one way thing and
I would just kind of like roll with it. And

(44:12):
I was just like, well, why don't you just like
talk it through at least humor me to talk it through,
Like you want to be heard and you want to
be respected in your partnership, and whether or not you're
kind of meeting the charge, you want to be able
to feel like you can kind of talk it out.
So that's where that's where I think Corey and you
were a good bit and where me and Devin maybe weren't.
But I wanted to. Of course I was rolling in

(44:34):
this game with Devin for sure. I mean I couldn't
have made it more obvious. I was like, here's my
heart on a platter. I want to choose you, and
you know, I do have another question about this last elimination,
the one that touched it did against Berna. Do you
think that you would have done well had you competed
in it? Yeah? I do. Actually, Like I was watching

(44:55):
it and I was wondering, kind of kicking myself to
a degree because I was thinking, like, should I have
stepped up and stepped in and taking Burna's place and
then been able to choose my partner and gotten myself
out over a rookie rookie pair, because guess what if
not this week, then next week we are going to
be worried. It's going to continuously be me and Corey

(45:17):
all eyes on us until we're out of this rookie
rookie pair. So I was watching it and I was like, damn,
should I have stepped in? But anytime you step in,
we've seen people go into elimination thinking that they're going
to win and then not win. So it's always a
crack shoot. But I was thinking, like beating myself out,
like I think I could have done it, you know what,

(45:38):
that would have saved me getting yelled at. So I
wish you would have done it. I felt bad throwing
you in there with your nose all messed up, and
obviously girl out of respect you saw burn a bust
that hurt. You would have to nose buss. You would
have got all your stitches, you would have lost your nose.
Oh good, fallen right off? But what is it falling?
Just you wouldn't need a new So, you know, I

(46:02):
think it's interesting that had to respond in that way
because she came from Big Brothers. So for me, like,
I'm just thinking you've played a competitive game before. You
probably you know, had situations like this before. I haven't
seen her season, but um, you know that's it's part
of the game. So I was pretty surprised to do
her response. And until I watched this episode, I had

(46:25):
actually had no idea that that's why she had lasted
out of you like that. I really had no clue
that it was because she had said my name. But
I mean, I feel bad that she kind of came
for you, But she's under the gun, had pressure situation.
You know, emotions are flaring and sometimes you just need
to know, like you need to put that attention somewhere.

(46:46):
So yeah, yeah, definitely better. She had three thousand followers.
And not one point eight million. But you know what,
it's all right. They're just listen. You know, she's loved
over there. That's great, she's doing her things. She sent
me some acute little yoga setts of thanks um. But
it is a game, and I've lost my cool a

(47:08):
million times. I mean we all have. It just sucks
when it's targeted at your friend, you know, like put
you in a weird spot, or like just in front
of everybody, and not not for the right reasons. You know.
I just think it could all be kind of I
think it could all be cleared up in a conversation.
And I think that if people don't want it to
be cleared up in a conversation, then whatever. I mean,

(47:29):
I'm the type of person that's willing to kind of
talk out anything. I don't like, take this game to
heart or too seriously, because I mean, we can't like
it's just as if you want to keep playing it. Yeah,
if you want to take it seriously, then you play
one season, right, yeah, exactly one and done and hopefully
Michelle you come back. Yeah, I think Michelle will. I mean,

(47:50):
if you get asked again, you're definitely coming back, right,
are you? Kidding. I love that giant bags. But what
I will say is like, honestly, there's so many amazing
rookies on this season. Like I can see they're also dimensional,
like multi dimensional in fact, multi passage, and I wouldn't

(48:10):
be surprised if anybody comes back. So I'm amongst giants here,
So I get it either way, but I hope I
on that. We love you, little fish mish fish. Okay,
so you don't because I had a nickname in high
school and it was shellfish, and it haunted me forever.
I don't want to. I want to know why this

(48:31):
could be our challenge confidential. Oh my sheish I was
in it. So I was high school swim and had
taken a picture of me doing breshtroke. I was coming
out of the water like guess my homeworkers on my
hand and had my little cap on and my face
was like and it was blown up on top of
the lockers, a huge picture. All of my friends just

(48:55):
were like, oh my god, they're shellfish stuff. And I
was like, please, that's so cute. I would like that picture.
If you could find that picture for us, please send
it to us. My sister did ask for at the
end of the school year, and they said they were
going to give it to her and they didn't, but
it's a blessing. Well, whose whomever's at um Michelle's alma mater,

(49:19):
whoever at her high school? Could you please take down
the shellfish because we really really want it. We want
to make pictures of we want to make T shirts. Yeah.
I can probably find it in my high school yearbook.
I'll try. Oh my god, it would die. Okay, good. Yeah,
So we have one last question for you, Michelle. We
asked this question for everybody. Obviously, this season is called Spies,
Lies and Allies, So we're just gonna ask that you

(49:40):
pull out the biggest spy, the biggest liar, and the
biggest ally from this episode from this episode. Yeah, jeez, Okay,
the biggest ally is Cory obviously he was so righting.
Or maybe Tommy has to get the biggest My baby
went out in a a nude Flame of glory, Oh,

(50:06):
flame of Glory rising, Thank you baby. Um. The biggest
spy would probably be Big Tea, kind of playing both sides.
You know, she's got her, she's got the rookie, she
got she's got the vets. What's going on there um
and the biggest light higher. Well, if Kel's were in it,

(50:29):
I would take Kels. But why did he? Was he
lying about cutting deals? I saw your tweet at him.
From what I gather, okay, I thought he was because
everybody who I talked to you said that they had
a number one deal with him, I mean people, because
so basically I heard that he was working with like

(50:50):
Rennin and like he made like a rookie male kind
of alliance with Rennin Tommy, like that group. And then
I also heard he was working with a Manuel and Logan.
And then I also heard he was working with like Priscilla,
and Priscilla was like his number one. And then Nam
told me that Kells had reached out to him to

(51:10):
have a number one secret kind of private alliance with him,
thanking this individually lies, And I was like, what is
the truth here? So so much deception, so much deception
and all deception that I'm not part of, which I
don't like. So if I'm not if I'm not involved,
I'm not into it. I just feel bamboothold. I know,

(51:34):
I know, all right, Well we can give it to Kels,
because I think that the only other possible liar. This
episode could have been me, which is a lie. I'm
happy to give it to Kels, give it to Kel's baby.
Yeah yea, fuck you Kels. I love you, I love you.
Thank you so much for having me. Honestly like this

(51:56):
just felt like a girl chat and I love it.
And please come hang out with me and real life.
Yeah we will. You're not far Michelle. Where can we
follow you and how can we support you? You can
follow me at mish Mish Underscore Fits on Instagram if
you want to see all of my antics and then
Niche fits on Claire and you guys can send Michelle
pictures of shellfish all shellfish, please don't they're going to you.

(52:23):
Also do nonprofit stuff, don't you. Or any time that
I'm on Instagram, if I'm doing a live or anything
like that, I do try to make sure that we're
donating different charities, So if you're ever tuning in, please donate.
We love to raise money for good causes and if
I'm talking shit, I want to raise money while doing it.
So last act, Michelle, thank you so much, Love Chelle,

(52:46):
love you guys are the best. This was so fun.
Thank you for having us. Thank you. That was an incredible,
credible interview with Michelle. She was always full of insight
and intellect, and she was also quite funny. I really

(53:09):
enjoyed hearing from her and finding out a little bit
more about her experience on the show. Yeah she's awesome.
So now we're gonna get into Challenge Confidential. Okay, Challenge Confidential. Yeah,
I don't mean to put a sexy spin on it.
If you guys could see me right now, I'm not
very sexy. Speak for yourself and he say, you're hot,

(53:31):
thank you, So Challenge Confidential lay it on me tour.
So what I what I actually do want to share
is we were there at that elimination for very very long,
and the girls have chesty go pros on, and as
they're climbing up and putting their like rods in the slots,

(53:52):
the GoPros are hitting them and knocking them off. So
the ship that they were wearing for filming ended up
being the thing that kind of created this elimination to
last as long as it did, and they actually stopped
the elimination about forty five forty five minutes in or
thirty minutes in, whatever it may be, and make the
girls remove the chesties and they take off these go pros,

(54:14):
and then they compete again, and then that's when Burna
ends up finally finishing. But by that time, you mean
their arms were shot, like they had been climbing for
at least forty five minutes. So Burna wins that elimination
and gets to go back into our big, beautiful mansion
of a house. Mansion of a house though house mansion,
I mean, it's better than a bunker, right, But speaking

(54:36):
of mansions, there's one mansion that we need to discuss,
and that one belongs to our friend and host TJ Leavin. Yes,
TJ showed his house on Cribs. It was an awesome episode.
I mean I remember talking to TJ on the podcast
and like seeing the background of the house and being like,
where is he? Like that place looks so cool? Hits

(54:57):
his house and went back casual dirt jump backyard. Yeah. So,
if you guys haven't seen the Cribs episode of TJ Lavin,
I highly recommend it. It's awesome. It's just cool being
able to see a behind the scenes look into his
life and plus, like you get to look good our lives.
It's nice to finally have a little peek into his
If you guys watched it, send us dms. We'd love
to hear your thoughts about it, and you can DM

(55:19):
Anissa Anissa, where can they send you pictures of t
J Lavin's grip? Oh? Come on you always. I'm want
to thank everybody for all the cats I got last time.
I got some dogs too, so thank you. You can
send me those pictures at Anissa MTV. That's a n
E s a MTV Twitter. I don't really care about

(55:43):
DM me on Instagram if you want, and then when
you find Tori, send our actual pictures of cribs. Jesus,
thank you. All right, you guys can find me right
now on Instagram at Tori Underscore deal. I'm not looking
forward to these picture of cribs, but it's totally fine.
But more importantly, guys send us your listener questions. We

(56:05):
really look forward to hearing what you guys think about
this season. Are you liking it or what do you
want to know about And just make sure that you
watch new episodes of The Challenge, Spies, Lies and Allies
every Wednesday and then go behind the scenes with us
the next morning on MTV's official Challenge podcast,