February 14, 2024 • 32 mins
Alex finds and connects with the hero of the story.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
A group of high school students.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
High school students Elizabethan High School students started a project
to research.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
A string of unsolved murders. Their research led to the
identification of the killer. Investigators now have an answer to
a thirty four year old question.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Once you start getting.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
A few tips, or a few leads, or few.
Speaker 5 (00:21):
Identifications, then the cold case isn't so cold anymore.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
There's a pretty good chance he's still alive.
Speaker 5 (00:28):
Everything that the students predicted through their profile turned out
to be accurate.
Speaker 6 (00:33):
Redhead Killer profile male Caucasian, five nine, six hundred and
seventy pounds, unstable home, absent father, and a domineering mother,
right handed, IQ above one hundred, most likely heterosexual.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
There is no profile of this killer except for the
ones the students created.
Speaker 7 (00:51):
Just because some of these women no longer have people
to speak for them does not mean that they desire to.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Not be so anymore.
Speaker 7 (00:57):
What if this guy's still alive?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Like what becomes after us?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
This is Murder one oh one, Season one, episode six,
Tying it all together. I'm Jeff Shane, a television and
podcast producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Leidecker, Courtney Armstrong,
and Andrew Arnold. Mister Campbell and his students were confident
that Jerry John's surviving victim held the clues to the mystery.
(01:28):
Mister Campbell called me with an exciting update.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
You're not gonna believe what I just found. It almost
sounds like a country song.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
The woman I've been looking for for five years and
I just found her.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Who So the hero of our story is Linda.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
She was the lady who Jerry Johns attempted to kill.
I mean, as far as I understand it, she stopped breathing,
she was dead, and then she spontaneously revived on the
side of the road. And because she was immediately able
to go and get help and tell the police where
he was and the car was driving and all that,
he was arrested and put in prison for forty years,
(02:09):
and of course that's where he died.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
And so without.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
Her and her will to live, none of this would
have been possible. So, for example, the only way they've
been able to relay him back to these other cases
is because his DNA was found on Tina Farmer. The
only reason they had his DNA in the system is
because he went to prison on a felony charge for
trying to kill her.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And she fits very much into the victim profile.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Correct, Oh yeah, she's she's red headed, she's twite, she's
she's small, she's she's the right age.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
She was like early mid mid twenties.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Her will to live, you know, and her tenacity is
the reason why he's been able to be tied to
all these murders. And I have looked for her for
a long time, different ways, you know, social media and
in different type of research places.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
But finally I was.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Able to get on one of the research sites online,
kind of ancestry research side, and combine that with some
information I found in the case file that is public
knowledge because you know, they took that case to trial.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
We were able to piece it together and I found her.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Wow, And have you made contact yet?
Speaker 7 (03:14):
No?
Speaker 5 (03:15):
It's kind of like the dog who chased the car
and you know, caught it. Like, wow, now that you
know how to contact this person, Like, what do you say?
You know, obviously she was you know, working at a
gentleman's club, and she was in a tough situation, recently divorced,
had a small child, and you know she's trying to
make ends meet. Of course, worst night of her life,
(03:37):
I'm sure almost dies, you know, meets meets a serial
killer and survives. So, you know, on one hand, you
probably think she's she's worked really hard to not run
that and move on from it.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
But on the other hand, I think.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Does she even know like what she means to this case,
to all these women, to their families?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (03:55):
She She probably doesn't, you know, because the point is
nobody's paying attention to this case, nobody's putting all these
these things together. And I don't even know if she
realizes that the guy who almost killed her has been
linked to this other murder and you know, we feel
there's plenty of evidence that links him.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
To several more. So I don't even know if she
knows that.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
And you know, but I think she deserves to know
that without her, you know, none of this work would
have been possible. And then I pulled some pictures off
her Facebook and it's her.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
I mean, it's just her, just just it's her.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
So what do you think what should we do about this?
Speaker 5 (04:29):
I mean, you don't want to bring up the worst
part of somebody's life and make them relive it. But
on the other hand, I've done a lot of work
with people who have lost you know, children and stuff.
And I've talked to people who've been through some terrible
things like that, and what they say is like, you
not bring it up.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Isn't like I forgot it.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
You know, just because you didn't bring up my son
didn't mean I forgot that one of my sons has passed.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
So I mean by not bringing it up, I.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Don't know if you know, like I said, Oh, she had.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
Forgotten it until I brought it up. I don't think
that's the case. Does she want to read it? Maybe not,
But does she know like what her strength has been
able to do for this case? You know, does she
even know that she was like she was his last
victim and because she was able to survive it, you know,
her bravery and her courage and her strength like allowed
(05:17):
you know, other families to know what happened to their
loved one. And I think everybody deserves to know that,
don't you.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Yeah, And even if she doesn't, you know, agree to appear,
we can still tell that story and about her bravery,
and you know, we'll figure out how to be respectful.
But I agree, I mean, I think it's definitely worth
a phone call to give her the option and just
to introduce you know yourself. And like you said, she
might not know any of this, which is you know,
wild to think about, but certainly something she should be
aware of.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
Yes, I agree with that. Give her the information and
let her decide. And but her story is it's an
amazing story. Like I have the picture that they took
of her at the hospital and what she looked like.
And I'm going through the hospital report, and she was
blind for three days because he had choked her so badly.
(06:06):
You know, she was put on a liquid dit for weeks.
She couldn't even chew or swallow solid food, and like
what she went through to, you know, to survive that
and then have the bravery, of course to carry on
with the police and help make that case against him
and all that. And I can even see it, like
when I read the report, she talks about how scared
she is of him and others, and but you know
(06:28):
the fact that she did that and she was part
of putting him away, and then that led to you know,
the students work and new breaks in the case and
if it wasn't mempth with the DNA and that previous
case and another thing I didn't even mention this, but
in that case file, of course, Jerry Leon Johns uses
her own T shirt, cuts it into strips and binds
(06:49):
her with it, and eventually that's how he chokes her,
a ligature made from her own T shirt. And then
you know, you start looking at the Tina Farmer case,
she was choked with ligature made from her T shirt.
And you look at the Tracy su Walker case, they
find cloth ligature with a similar nod in it beside
her body, even though she'd probably been dead for maybe
as long as four or five years. And then now
(07:10):
there's other chain dos like the DeSoto County chain doe,
which also was found with a ligature, and you know,
if we couldn't have had that evidence, and like we have,
we still have those same ligatures down here in the
national archive, excuse me, in the state archives, and we've
got pictures of those, and because of that we can
compare those of the others used in different crimes and
(07:31):
link him back to those, even if we don't have DNA.
So like she's the lynch pin in the case. I mean,
I don't know if she realizes, you know, she's the
hero of this story and her bravery, like is what
set all this stuff in motion? And even though that
was like thirty five years ago. And I'll see if
I can get up the nerve to call into and
see how she feels about that.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Up here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.
Murder one O one later, mister Campbell dialed Linda's number.
Speaker 8 (08:24):
Hello, is this Linda? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Yeah, my name is Alex Campbell, and I'm a school
teacher from down in East Tennessee. And actually one of
the things I do is I let my students work
on cold cases.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
And uh, okay you what.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
Yeah, I'm a school teacher in East Tennessee high school
teacher and one of the things I do is I
let my students work on cold cases as part of
our studies. And I think your name might have come
up in connection with a case in Knoxville in nineteen
eighty five.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Is that you?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, we're in Where do you teach?
Speaker 4 (09:01):
So?
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I teach you Elizabeth in high school?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
After switching her call to a landline for better service,
mister Campbell conveyed just how important she was to the
club's investigation.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Yeah, I promise that I will keep this however you
want it to be kept. If you want me to
just keep it between me and you, that that'll be
how we'll do it.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
And really it's just you know, I just went through.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
They put me through so much.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
I want to be honest with you.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
We have really been looking for a long time to
find you, my students and I because I don't know
if you realize it, but like you and I'm really
emotional about it. It seems kind of funny, but like I
think you've really helped save and help a lot of
people through what you were able to do.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Well, that's the only reason I was able to do
it with know one that and I'm sure I saved
when's lives. I mean, there's no reason for me to
be alive. Have a good Lord, let me live.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Mister Campbell filled Linda and on the work of the
twenty eighteen class and the work that right Lad and
Marley were currently doing. She was able to provide some
interesting information.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
What I wanted to tell you. I didn't know if
you kept up with with what had happened recently, but
did you know that they had tied Jerry Johns to
a murder of another lady?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, And she looked very similar to me that they
somebody called me. A FBI agent called me a couple
of years ago and told me. I didn't even know
Jerry Johnson died, but he called me and told me
that they used DNA and proved that he killed this
other girl. They questioned me when it happened, right, you know,
(10:37):
that hadn't There were dozens of girls that looked a
lot like me, you know, and they called them the
red head murders. And then the judge told them they
weren't allowed to mention the red headed murderers anymore because
it would mess up the case. The only case could
be mine, you know, as long as they could try
(10:59):
him on. So so anyway, I knew that there were
a lot of other women that had died and none
and he said there was a lady that they found
their body after it happened. Now they there were I
get FBI or TV whoever. These people are from all over,
you know, all over the country, came together and met
(11:20):
with me about and they had the women that there
cases that were similar. In fact, the knot that he
tied is evidently was a some sort of you have
to be a space, I mean, it's a special knot
like you learned to tie. And evidently each one that
had that same tie. Har he's hot, just hard and
(11:44):
and that's and oh god. Anyway, but he had his
love book, they said, made it look like he was
different places and he couldn't have killed those other women.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
See he had a brother too, Yeah, Wayne, Wayne, he
went by the name Wayne, that was.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
His middle name.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Well, he was with you. But now this FBI TBI
whoever was talked to me last said they're pretty sure
he knew nothing about it, even though they were together
at you know, traveling together. So I don't know if
they I mean, I don't know if they've done DNA
testing on these other women or not. But there were
(12:25):
a whole bunch of them that they questioned me about,
and we said at this big, huge, long table, and
there were photographs of all these women and some of
them looked like photographs.
Speaker 8 (12:36):
Of the Wow.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Well, the reason, one of the reasons I was kind
of find you is that it seems like now there's
a chance where he can be tied to maybe several
of these murders, and these families can figure out, you know,
who's responsible, and they can get some closure and the
truth is it. It's decades if it doesn't happen. Now,
(13:02):
a lot of the agents and everything I have already
retired or passed on. The evidence has been lost.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, I think the one that took care of me
that he died Johnson, Larry Johnson, the name from there
or is that the policeman.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
He was a TBI agent and he did a lot
of work on the case. But maybe that was after,
you know, maybe the fact, So I'm not really sure.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
But anyway, I've spoken with him.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
But what I wanted to say was, and it's so funny,
this might seem weird to you, but like I've poured
my life into this for five years, trying to prove
that he is responsible for many other people suffering in
their families and just trying to get them some closure,
and it seems like a really close Like I could
(13:48):
tell you a lot of things, but what I really
wanted to tell you was that this is a terrible
it's a terrible, tragic story for a lot of people
and a lot of families. But if there's a hero,
it's you, and like your will to live, you know,
is what got him arrested and kept him off the streets.
And the DNA you know, that they took from him
(14:10):
once he was put in prison, is what can help
maybe some of these families. It's already helped some, but
it can help the rest of these families figure out
what happened.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Who was responsible, and let them move on.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
And so anyway, it's just it's a real pleasure to
talk to you. And you're such a strong lady, you know.
And this might seem weird too, but for five years
I've had your picture from your hospital report on my
computer and every morning I see it and it reminds
me I've got to keep working to try to help
(14:40):
these other families kiss some justice. And your story is amazing,
and you're the strongest woman I believe I've ever known.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh my gosh, no, not true. But well, at the time,
my husband's alive and I never told him what happened,
and he's gone. Now I'm sorry. Is here for me
to talk about it.
Speaker 5 (15:06):
My students and I are getting ready to present a
case about the girl who was just identified. She was
found very near Tina Farmer in Campbell County. And this
girl disappeared from a town just right over from her,
and yet they were found here eight hours drive away,
right beside of each other. So we feel that he's
probably connected to that one. Tina Farmer was pregnant and
(15:28):
her baby died with her, and we think there was
another murder. I don't know if you remember that one.
It was in Green County in nineteen eighty five, right,
They found her body right after your case. And so
we think there's another victim in Green County and probably
others in Mississippi. And so my students are going to
be presenting to the police in Mississippi and to the
(15:51):
police in Indiana, and they're trying to help them put
it together because the TBI works cases in Tennessee, but
they don't really share, you know, it's not really there
is jurisdiction to think about people in Mississippi, so there's
nobody helping these police agencies kind of connect it. So
when I call Mississippi, they didn't even know that there
was somebody who was, you know, harming women that everything matched,
(16:15):
but it was just thirty minutes north in Tennessee and
they hadn't even heard of it, and they didn't know
there was a suspect.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And I did talk to people in Mississippi and Alabama
and numerous states, and like I said, Udip gets there everybody.
I mean, it was in every paper in the country.
My daddy heard about it, and he lived in Chicago,
and he heard about it while I was in the hospital,
so I mean from the he heard it on the
(16:44):
newsh What.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
Has happened is all those detectives have retired or died
and so and so they don't know anymore. When I
talked to Mississippi, he said, I inherited this case. Somebody
else had it, they retired. I've got it and I
don't know anything about it. I wasn't even a police
officer then. So, like we're trying to keep the attention
on these cases because we are so close. With just
(17:09):
a few DNA tests, I think a lot of these
cases could be kind of finalized. And I've talked to
family members. I talked to Tina Farmer's sister, I communicated
with her niece yesterday and some different ones. And you know,
it's hard knowing that your loved one is gone. I mean,
that doesn't change that. But for example, I talked to
(17:32):
a lady who was only like a year old when
her mom went missing, and she said, you know, it's
bad to know that your mom, you know, was murdered.
But she said, I always thought my mom didn't come
home because she didn't want me, And she said it
was better to hear that she couldn't come home. Then
she didn't want to come home. And I know, like
it doesn't change the fact that the person's gone, but
(17:52):
they still do want to know, like why didn't their
loved one come home?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
And so we're working really hard.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I know, we had a wife, he.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Did, He had a wife and I and we've conversed
with her and uh, same thing.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
She was just so shocked.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But have you you've talked to her.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Well, Uh, one of the guys who did the research
for the podcast went down and spoke with her.
Speaker 8 (18:13):
Well, she.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Got divorced after but when she went during the trial,
she thought he was innocent. I guess, I mean, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, she she had no idea. She the whole family.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
He put on a show, and the whole family thought
he was the nicest guy. But that's the way it
is with people like this. They they they're very good
at hiding themselves. But when that and from what I
understand of the case, I've read your case file. I mean,
at first he seems like a really nice guy, but
whenever he lets his true self out, it's just it's,
you know, it's monstrous.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Well, one day I'll tell you, I'll tell you those
you know, I'm in trouble to think, and I don't.
It's time to think. I got to get it together.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
When Riley heard about the call, she was unsurprisingly very
happy with the development.
Speaker 7 (19:02):
I am just driving home from practice. Had a very
long day. It's Friday, Thank goodness. I'm so excited for
the weekend. Words can't even describe how excited I am.
But this week was a really good week. He's very hectic,
but we had a very good day, or a very
good week. Rather working with our case study, our victim profiles,
(19:23):
also our teacher, mister Campbell, he was able to talk
with Window School and get her perspective, which was I mean, wow,
that was just honestly amazing. It's a once in a
lifetime experience. I mean, she is really the only person
that we know of that saw Jerry Leon Joon in
that moment and survived to tell the tale. Glad to
(19:45):
see him at his evil if showing his true colors.
I guess is what I'm trying to say. She's the
only person who saw who he truly was and lived
to tell the tale. He thought he killed her. She
saw firsthand how rude and savage and truly evil he was,
and she can tell us about that. I think that
(20:07):
is just insane. She doesn't live around here anymore, and
I'm really excited to see where that leaves us. And
the fact that she's open to working with us, talking
to us about this, I think that is going to
be an extreme game changer. And honestly, her coming forward
and sharing her story. Who knows, there could be other
survivors who don't know about Like we talked about previously,
(20:28):
these women, they work in trades that might have not
been something they wanted people to know. Some of them
were sex workers, transient women. They would not have wanted
to come forward. Maybe if they were and he they'd
encounter cands through you know, getting hired and safe work,
different things like that. But seeing Glenda come forward and
(20:49):
hearing her tell her tale, who knows? This is my
open big gate for so many other women who were like, yeah,
I encountered this man who drove a truck and he
tried to rape me and kill me, or he tried
to kill me and strangle me, Like, we don't know
what this could lead to. So I think that's awesome.
Another statements, Really, it's been a big week. But something
(21:10):
else that's been insanely awesome is we've got a not
expert to look at the different ligatures that we're used
on Linden, and mister Campbell is looking more into that
to see if possibly he could go down to Nashville
and take some better pictures of the knots, because the
expert told us he identified one or two of the
knots and he said he needs to see them in
(21:32):
more dimensions, sus he's like the backside of them, different
things like that. I'm really excited to see what happens
if we could possibly identify any new or similar knots
in two different ligatures of different victims. I think that'd
be really cool if we can make a connection, say, oh,
you know, Tracy Sue Walker had this kind of not
in her ligature and Linda has the exact same kind
(21:56):
of nons. Well, these kind of knots are commonly used
with truck drive. I just think that would be that
could tell us a lot about different cases. I mean,
it's not an end all be all, but it's just
more evidence that makes it even more convincing. It was
great to see some of these things that we've been
working towards and working for some do fruition and just
get reassured by some people who have quite a bit
(22:18):
more experienced than us that, Yeah, I'm very excited to
see what the future holds and what else we can
find out.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Let's stop here for another quick break murder. One on one,
in the hopes of tying everything together, the club spoke
to world renowned not expert Lindsay Philipott.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
One of the things you said was on the picture
I sent you of the leg at your you said
that you could maybe make out what that knot was.
You think that's a granny knot.
Speaker 8 (23:05):
I believe so.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Yes, so that appears to be a granny knot.
Speaker 8 (23:08):
Twenty nine shows it most clearly.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
Yeah, So how sure are you? Like you just one
hundred percent sure that's what that is? Yes, okay, And
so that's a you say, that's a relatively easy knot
for people to tie or learn how to tie.
Speaker 8 (23:21):
It's very easy because you just do the same thing twice.
When you're making a granny knot, you either tie left
over right and tuck it under and then do that again,
or you tuck right under left and do it again.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Now, I know you said it's pretty you know it's
pretty easy to tire. I love people know how to
tie it. But are there any applications or jobs for
people tied a lot?
Speaker 8 (23:50):
For example, there are a number of places where non
knock tires tie a lot of the same thing, because
the old saying goes, if you can't tie the right knot,
tie lots. Yeah, so people tend to repeat something if
they think that it's working. Have you ever seen the
Show's Survivor.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yes, it's been a while.
Speaker 8 (24:13):
And in that they generally have a number of knots
that are used to hold things like bags or keys
or something like that that people then have to undo.
And in fact, what most of those are are overhead
knots and half hitches.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Let me ask you this question.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
So I can see that there's hair wrapped up in
this knot, is this a good knot to tie if
you're going to strangle somebody? Because it doesn't sinch up,
does it?
Speaker 8 (24:46):
It does sinch up on it? Jams.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Okay, what does that? What does jam mean?
Speaker 8 (24:52):
It means it can't be undone easily.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Oh, so this would be a good knot for people
to tie if you're trying to strangle somebody.
Speaker 8 (24:59):
Well, it is and it isn't, you know. Depending on
how well you want the knot to hold, then a
jamming knot is a good not to have. However, if
you want to be able to undo it again, then
a jamming knot is not a good kno to have. Now,
(25:19):
in this case, I'm assuming that there would be a
need for having some sort of knot that jammed. Does
that mean that the person that tied it knew that
before they tied it? No, not necessarily anyway.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
Okay, So I actually interviewed the lady who this was
used on, and he just left it on her body,
and when she came to she said she had a
hard time getting it undone. Does that sound like it fits.
Speaker 8 (25:49):
With Yeah, that's absolutely consistent. And one that's tied as
tightly as that is, it's extremely likely that it would
be very difficult to undo unless you had a stick
or a screwdriver or some other metal implement that you
could actually use to insert into the knot and then
(26:11):
be able to lever it open. But basically, if I
ever come across a knot that I want to undo
and I find that it was a granny knot, I'll
take a knife to it.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Okay, let me ask you this.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
I think I found online that you had been called
as an expert sometimes in court cases or criminal cases.
So in other killers who use ligatures like this, is
this a common knot in that case?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Or is this kind of an uncommon knot?
Speaker 8 (26:42):
I would say it's a common knot in knots of
criminal passion. It's not a common knot where the individual
that tied it is more completely aware of other forms
of not that may be more convenient, maybe more speedy,
(27:05):
maybe more convenient to tie.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Okay, So I mean, can you give an estimate maybe
on maybe how many cases have you have you consulted
on like this before?
Speaker 8 (27:20):
I would say probably twenty maybe twenty five.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
Do you have any idea how often or not somewhere
this is used like a percentage or anything.
Speaker 8 (27:30):
No, I would have to guess, and I really don't
enjoy guessing.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Okay, Okay, I was just asking.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
I was just trying to understand maybe if this was
common or uncommon as far as people who use, you know,
tied ligatures is.
Speaker 8 (27:46):
I would say it's common, probably more than a half,
but I have no data to back that up.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
But it looks like that that the part of the
shirt that was torn off to make the ligature was
like the next or something.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
It's like a ham.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Is that what you're saying there?
Speaker 8 (28:04):
Yeah, it's something from a seam or other joining of
two pieces of fabric, and that forms the stronger part
of the fabric of a T shirt, whether it's the
neck or the arm or the hammer around the bottom.
If you're using a fabric of any sort, you'll look
(28:27):
for whatever is the toughest part of that fabric, and
the toughest part of the fabric even though it's technically
weakened by the knots, it is strengthened by the folding
of the fabric on either side and then the close
and tight stitching that's used along it to be able
(28:51):
to derive a relatively strong and relative is a very
important word there, a relative strong ligature.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Mister Philpott continued to explain the significance.
Speaker 8 (29:04):
Using the fabric itself by itself. If that were ripped apart.
And you've undoubtedly seen scenes from movies and from Wild
Wrestling Foundation people who tear their t shirt apart. The
fabric itself tears very easily, but the seams don't, and
(29:24):
as soon as it gets to a seam, that's where
people have the greatest difficulty in tearing it apart. Therefore,
that's the strongest part. Yeah, it makes sense from the
point of view of, well, what's the strongest bit that
I've got here, because I'm afraid of this tearing apart.
So and then they tug on or handle the piece
that's got the seam in it and take it from
(29:47):
there to use the strength of the seam to form
a relatively strong piece of ligature.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
There was one thing I wanted to share with you,
and when I ask her, this was at least his
second victim.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
His DNA was found on the.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Other However, he was thirty seven or thirty eight at
this time, and the FBI profile that we work with said,
there's no way he started killing it at thirty seven
or thirty eight, so you know there's probably more. And
one of the reasons I'm asking is because there was
another lady found very close She was from four hundred
miles away, yet found very within two miles of the
(30:26):
other victim that they found his DNA on and a ligature.
She had been dead for probably six years, at least
four years we know, and there was a ligature found
around the neck the bones.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
What was left.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
So we're trying to do work to see if.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You know he was involved with that one as well.
Speaker 5 (30:47):
So anyway your health on that has it has been
really important.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
So I want to thank you for your time with this.
Speaker 8 (30:53):
You're very welcome. In most of the cases where ligatures
are employed, if strangling is a part of the not
time that's gone on, there would generally speaking be some
collapse or other breakage of the hyoid bone, and that
would be something that the medical examiner should have looked
(31:16):
at and prepared in their report, and that may well
be something further to look.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
At more on that next time. Murder one oh one
is executive produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Alex Campbell, Courtney Armstrong,
Andrew Arnot and me Jeff Shane. Additional producing by Connor
(31:42):
Powell and Gabriel Castillo. Editing by Jeff Twa and Davey
Cooper Wassser music by Vancor Music. Murder one oh one
is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite show.
A group of high school students.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
High school students Elizabethan High School students started a project
to research.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
A string of unsolved murders. Their research led to the
identification of the killer. Investigators now have an answer to
a thirty four year old question.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Once you start getting.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
A few tips, or a few leads, or few.
Speaker 5 (00:21):
Identifications, then the cold case isn't so cold anymore.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
There's a pretty good chance he's still alive.
Speaker 5 (00:28):
Everything that the students predicted through their profile turned out
to be accurate.
Speaker 6 (00:33):
Redhead Killer profile male Caucasian, five nine, six hundred and
seventy pounds, unstable home, absent father, and a domineering mother,
right handed, IQ above one hundred, most likely heterosexual.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
There is no profile of this killer except for the
ones the students created.
Speaker 7 (00:51):
Just because some of these women no longer have people
to speak for them does not mean that they desire to.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Not be so anymore.
Speaker 7 (00:57):
What if this guy's still alive?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Like what becomes after us?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
This is Murder one oh one, Season one, episode six,
Tying it all together. I'm Jeff Shane, a television and
podcast producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Leidecker, Courtney Armstrong,
and Andrew Arnold. Mister Campbell and his students were confident
that Jerry John's surviving victim held the clues to the mystery.
(01:28):
Mister Campbell called me with an exciting update.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
You're not gonna believe what I just found. It almost
sounds like a country song.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
The woman I've been looking for for five years and
I just found her.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Who So the hero of our story is Linda.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
She was the lady who Jerry Johns attempted to kill.
I mean, as far as I understand it, she stopped breathing,
she was dead, and then she spontaneously revived on the
side of the road. And because she was immediately able
to go and get help and tell the police where
he was and the car was driving and all that,
he was arrested and put in prison for forty years,
(02:09):
and of course that's where he died.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
And so without.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
Her and her will to live, none of this would
have been possible. So, for example, the only way they've
been able to relay him back to these other cases
is because his DNA was found on Tina Farmer. The
only reason they had his DNA in the system is
because he went to prison on a felony charge for
trying to kill her.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And she fits very much into the victim profile.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Correct, Oh yeah, she's she's red headed, she's twite, she's
she's small, she's she's the right age.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
She was like early mid mid twenties.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Her will to live, you know, and her tenacity is
the reason why he's been able to be tied to
all these murders. And I have looked for her for
a long time, different ways, you know, social media and
in different type of research places.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
But finally I was.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Able to get on one of the research sites online,
kind of ancestry research side, and combine that with some
information I found in the case file that is public
knowledge because you know, they took that case to trial.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
We were able to piece it together and I found her.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Wow, And have you made contact yet?
Speaker 7 (03:14):
No?
Speaker 5 (03:15):
It's kind of like the dog who chased the car
and you know, caught it. Like, wow, now that you
know how to contact this person, Like, what do you say?
You know, obviously she was you know, working at a
gentleman's club, and she was in a tough situation, recently divorced,
had a small child, and you know she's trying to
make ends meet. Of course, worst night of her life,
(03:37):
I'm sure almost dies, you know, meets meets a serial
killer and survives. So, you know, on one hand, you
probably think she's she's worked really hard to not run
that and move on from it.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
But on the other hand, I think.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Does she even know like what she means to this case,
to all these women, to their families?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (03:55):
She She probably doesn't, you know, because the point is
nobody's paying attention to this case, nobody's putting all these
these things together. And I don't even know if she
realizes that the guy who almost killed her has been
linked to this other murder and you know, we feel
there's plenty of evidence that links him.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
To several more. So I don't even know if she
knows that.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
And you know, but I think she deserves to know
that without her, you know, none of this work would
have been possible. And then I pulled some pictures off
her Facebook and it's her.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
I mean, it's just her, just just it's her.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
So what do you think what should we do about this?
Speaker 5 (04:29):
I mean, you don't want to bring up the worst
part of somebody's life and make them relive it. But
on the other hand, I've done a lot of work
with people who have lost you know, children and stuff.
And I've talked to people who've been through some terrible
things like that, and what they say is like, you
not bring it up.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Isn't like I forgot it.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
You know, just because you didn't bring up my son
didn't mean I forgot that one of my sons has passed.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
So I mean by not bringing it up, I.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Don't know if you know, like I said, Oh, she had.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
Forgotten it until I brought it up. I don't think
that's the case. Does she want to read it? Maybe not,
But does she know like what her strength has been
able to do for this case? You know, does she
even know that she was like she was his last
victim and because she was able to survive it, you know,
her bravery and her courage and her strength like allowed
(05:17):
you know, other families to know what happened to their
loved one. And I think everybody deserves to know that,
don't you.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Yeah, And even if she doesn't, you know, agree to appear,
we can still tell that story and about her bravery,
and you know, we'll figure out how to be respectful.
But I agree, I mean, I think it's definitely worth
a phone call to give her the option and just
to introduce you know yourself. And like you said, she
might not know any of this, which is you know,
wild to think about, but certainly something she should be
aware of.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
Yes, I agree with that. Give her the information and
let her decide. And but her story is it's an
amazing story. Like I have the picture that they took
of her at the hospital and what she looked like.
And I'm going through the hospital report, and she was
blind for three days because he had choked her so badly.
(06:06):
You know, she was put on a liquid dit for weeks.
She couldn't even chew or swallow solid food, and like
what she went through to, you know, to survive that
and then have the bravery, of course to carry on
with the police and help make that case against him
and all that. And I can even see it, like
when I read the report, she talks about how scared
she is of him and others, and but you know
(06:28):
the fact that she did that and she was part
of putting him away, and then that led to you know,
the students work and new breaks in the case and
if it wasn't mempth with the DNA and that previous
case and another thing I didn't even mention this, but
in that case file, of course, Jerry Leon Johns uses
her own T shirt, cuts it into strips and binds
(06:49):
her with it, and eventually that's how he chokes her,
a ligature made from her own T shirt. And then
you know, you start looking at the Tina Farmer case,
she was choked with ligature made from her T shirt.
And you look at the Tracy su Walker case, they
find cloth ligature with a similar nod in it beside
her body, even though she'd probably been dead for maybe
as long as four or five years. And then now
(07:10):
there's other chain dos like the DeSoto County chain doe,
which also was found with a ligature, and you know,
if we couldn't have had that evidence, and like we have,
we still have those same ligatures down here in the
national archive, excuse me, in the state archives, and we've
got pictures of those, and because of that we can
compare those of the others used in different crimes and
(07:31):
link him back to those, even if we don't have DNA.
So like she's the lynch pin in the case. I mean,
I don't know if she realizes, you know, she's the
hero of this story and her bravery, like is what
set all this stuff in motion? And even though that
was like thirty five years ago. And I'll see if
I can get up the nerve to call into and
see how she feels about that.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Up here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.
Murder one O one later, mister Campbell dialed Linda's number.
Speaker 8 (08:24):
Hello, is this Linda? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Yeah, my name is Alex Campbell, and I'm a school
teacher from down in East Tennessee. And actually one of
the things I do is I let my students work
on cold cases.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
And uh, okay you what.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
Yeah, I'm a school teacher in East Tennessee high school
teacher and one of the things I do is I
let my students work on cold cases as part of
our studies. And I think your name might have come
up in connection with a case in Knoxville in nineteen
eighty five.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Is that you?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, we're in Where do you teach?
Speaker 4 (09:01):
So?
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I teach you Elizabeth in high school?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
After switching her call to a landline for better service,
mister Campbell conveyed just how important she was to the
club's investigation.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Yeah, I promise that I will keep this however you
want it to be kept. If you want me to
just keep it between me and you, that that'll be
how we'll do it.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
And really it's just you know, I just went through.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
They put me through so much.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
I want to be honest with you.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
We have really been looking for a long time to
find you, my students and I because I don't know
if you realize it, but like you and I'm really
emotional about it. It seems kind of funny, but like I
think you've really helped save and help a lot of
people through what you were able to do.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Well, that's the only reason I was able to do
it with know one that and I'm sure I saved
when's lives. I mean, there's no reason for me to
be alive. Have a good Lord, let me live.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Mister Campbell filled Linda and on the work of the
twenty eighteen class and the work that right Lad and
Marley were currently doing. She was able to provide some
interesting information.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
What I wanted to tell you. I didn't know if
you kept up with with what had happened recently, but
did you know that they had tied Jerry Johns to
a murder of another lady?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, And she looked very similar to me that they
somebody called me. A FBI agent called me a couple
of years ago and told me. I didn't even know
Jerry Johnson died, but he called me and told me
that they used DNA and proved that he killed this
other girl. They questioned me when it happened, right, you know,
(10:37):
that hadn't There were dozens of girls that looked a
lot like me, you know, and they called them the
red head murders. And then the judge told them they
weren't allowed to mention the red headed murderers anymore because
it would mess up the case. The only case could
be mine, you know, as long as they could try
(10:59):
him on. So so anyway, I knew that there were
a lot of other women that had died and none
and he said there was a lady that they found
their body after it happened. Now they there were I
get FBI or TV whoever. These people are from all over,
you know, all over the country, came together and met
(11:20):
with me about and they had the women that there
cases that were similar. In fact, the knot that he
tied is evidently was a some sort of you have
to be a space, I mean, it's a special knot
like you learned to tie. And evidently each one that
had that same tie. Har he's hot, just hard and
(11:44):
and that's and oh god. Anyway, but he had his
love book, they said, made it look like he was
different places and he couldn't have killed those other women.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
See he had a brother too, Yeah, Wayne, Wayne, he
went by the name Wayne, that was.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
His middle name.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Well, he was with you. But now this FBI TBI
whoever was talked to me last said they're pretty sure
he knew nothing about it, even though they were together
at you know, traveling together. So I don't know if
they I mean, I don't know if they've done DNA
testing on these other women or not. But there were
(12:25):
a whole bunch of them that they questioned me about,
and we said at this big, huge, long table, and
there were photographs of all these women and some of
them looked like photographs.
Speaker 8 (12:36):
Of the Wow.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Well, the reason, one of the reasons I was kind
of find you is that it seems like now there's
a chance where he can be tied to maybe several
of these murders, and these families can figure out, you know,
who's responsible, and they can get some closure and the
truth is it. It's decades if it doesn't happen. Now,
(13:02):
a lot of the agents and everything I have already
retired or passed on. The evidence has been lost.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, I think the one that took care of me
that he died Johnson, Larry Johnson, the name from there
or is that the policeman.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
He was a TBI agent and he did a lot
of work on the case. But maybe that was after,
you know, maybe the fact, So I'm not really sure.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
But anyway, I've spoken with him.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
But what I wanted to say was, and it's so funny,
this might seem weird to you, but like I've poured
my life into this for five years, trying to prove
that he is responsible for many other people suffering in
their families and just trying to get them some closure,
and it seems like a really close Like I could
(13:48):
tell you a lot of things, but what I really
wanted to tell you was that this is a terrible
it's a terrible, tragic story for a lot of people
and a lot of families. But if there's a hero,
it's you, and like your will to live, you know,
is what got him arrested and kept him off the streets.
And the DNA you know, that they took from him
(14:10):
once he was put in prison, is what can help
maybe some of these families. It's already helped some, but
it can help the rest of these families figure out
what happened.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Who was responsible, and let them move on.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
And so anyway, it's just it's a real pleasure to
talk to you. And you're such a strong lady, you know.
And this might seem weird too, but for five years
I've had your picture from your hospital report on my
computer and every morning I see it and it reminds
me I've got to keep working to try to help
(14:40):
these other families kiss some justice. And your story is amazing,
and you're the strongest woman I believe I've ever known.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh my gosh, no, not true. But well, at the time,
my husband's alive and I never told him what happened,
and he's gone. Now I'm sorry. Is here for me
to talk about it.
Speaker 5 (15:06):
My students and I are getting ready to present a
case about the girl who was just identified. She was
found very near Tina Farmer in Campbell County. And this
girl disappeared from a town just right over from her,
and yet they were found here eight hours drive away,
right beside of each other. So we feel that he's
probably connected to that one. Tina Farmer was pregnant and
(15:28):
her baby died with her, and we think there was
another murder. I don't know if you remember that one.
It was in Green County in nineteen eighty five, right,
They found her body right after your case. And so
we think there's another victim in Green County and probably
others in Mississippi. And so my students are going to
be presenting to the police in Mississippi and to the
(15:51):
police in Indiana, and they're trying to help them put
it together because the TBI works cases in Tennessee, but
they don't really share, you know, it's not really there
is jurisdiction to think about people in Mississippi, so there's
nobody helping these police agencies kind of connect it. So
when I call Mississippi, they didn't even know that there
was somebody who was, you know, harming women that everything matched,
(16:15):
but it was just thirty minutes north in Tennessee and
they hadn't even heard of it, and they didn't know
there was a suspect.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And I did talk to people in Mississippi and Alabama
and numerous states, and like I said, Udip gets there everybody.
I mean, it was in every paper in the country.
My daddy heard about it, and he lived in Chicago,
and he heard about it while I was in the hospital,
so I mean from the he heard it on the
(16:44):
newsh What.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
Has happened is all those detectives have retired or died
and so and so they don't know anymore. When I
talked to Mississippi, he said, I inherited this case. Somebody
else had it, they retired. I've got it and I
don't know anything about it. I wasn't even a police
officer then. So, like we're trying to keep the attention
on these cases because we are so close. With just
(17:09):
a few DNA tests, I think a lot of these
cases could be kind of finalized. And I've talked to
family members. I talked to Tina Farmer's sister, I communicated
with her niece yesterday and some different ones. And you know,
it's hard knowing that your loved one is gone. I mean,
that doesn't change that. But for example, I talked to
(17:32):
a lady who was only like a year old when
her mom went missing, and she said, you know, it's
bad to know that your mom, you know, was murdered.
But she said, I always thought my mom didn't come
home because she didn't want me, And she said it
was better to hear that she couldn't come home. Then
she didn't want to come home. And I know, like
it doesn't change the fact that the person's gone, but
(17:52):
they still do want to know, like why didn't their
loved one come home?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
And so we're working really hard.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I know, we had a wife, he.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Did, He had a wife and I and we've conversed
with her and uh, same thing.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
She was just so shocked.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But have you you've talked to her.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Well, Uh, one of the guys who did the research
for the podcast went down and spoke with her.
Speaker 8 (18:13):
Well, she.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Got divorced after but when she went during the trial,
she thought he was innocent. I guess, I mean, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, she she had no idea. She the whole family.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
He put on a show, and the whole family thought
he was the nicest guy. But that's the way it
is with people like this. They they they're very good
at hiding themselves. But when that and from what I
understand of the case, I've read your case file. I mean,
at first he seems like a really nice guy, but
whenever he lets his true self out, it's just it's,
you know, it's monstrous.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Well, one day I'll tell you, I'll tell you those
you know, I'm in trouble to think, and I don't.
It's time to think. I got to get it together.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
When Riley heard about the call, she was unsurprisingly very
happy with the development.
Speaker 7 (19:02):
I am just driving home from practice. Had a very
long day. It's Friday, Thank goodness. I'm so excited for
the weekend. Words can't even describe how excited I am.
But this week was a really good week. He's very hectic,
but we had a very good day, or a very
good week. Rather working with our case study, our victim profiles,
(19:23):
also our teacher, mister Campbell, he was able to talk
with Window School and get her perspective, which was I mean, wow,
that was just honestly amazing. It's a once in a
lifetime experience. I mean, she is really the only person
that we know of that saw Jerry Leon Joon in
that moment and survived to tell the tale. Glad to
(19:45):
see him at his evil if showing his true colors.
I guess is what I'm trying to say. She's the
only person who saw who he truly was and lived
to tell the tale. He thought he killed her. She
saw firsthand how rude and savage and truly evil he was,
and she can tell us about that. I think that
(20:07):
is just insane. She doesn't live around here anymore, and
I'm really excited to see where that leaves us. And
the fact that she's open to working with us, talking
to us about this, I think that is going to
be an extreme game changer. And honestly, her coming forward
and sharing her story. Who knows, there could be other
survivors who don't know about Like we talked about previously,
(20:28):
these women, they work in trades that might have not
been something they wanted people to know. Some of them
were sex workers, transient women. They would not have wanted
to come forward. Maybe if they were and he they'd
encounter cands through you know, getting hired and safe work,
different things like that. But seeing Glenda come forward and
(20:49):
hearing her tell her tale, who knows? This is my
open big gate for so many other women who were like, yeah,
I encountered this man who drove a truck and he
tried to rape me and kill me, or he tried
to kill me and strangle me, Like, we don't know
what this could lead to. So I think that's awesome.
Another statements, Really, it's been a big week. But something
(21:10):
else that's been insanely awesome is we've got a not
expert to look at the different ligatures that we're used
on Linden, and mister Campbell is looking more into that
to see if possibly he could go down to Nashville
and take some better pictures of the knots, because the
expert told us he identified one or two of the
knots and he said he needs to see them in
(21:32):
more dimensions, sus he's like the backside of them, different
things like that. I'm really excited to see what happens
if we could possibly identify any new or similar knots
in two different ligatures of different victims. I think that'd
be really cool if we can make a connection, say, oh,
you know, Tracy Sue Walker had this kind of not
in her ligature and Linda has the exact same kind
(21:56):
of nons. Well, these kind of knots are commonly used
with truck drive. I just think that would be that
could tell us a lot about different cases. I mean,
it's not an end all be all, but it's just
more evidence that makes it even more convincing. It was
great to see some of these things that we've been
working towards and working for some do fruition and just
get reassured by some people who have quite a bit
(22:18):
more experienced than us that, Yeah, I'm very excited to
see what the future holds and what else we can
find out.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Let's stop here for another quick break murder. One on one,
in the hopes of tying everything together, the club spoke
to world renowned not expert Lindsay Philipott.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
One of the things you said was on the picture
I sent you of the leg at your you said
that you could maybe make out what that knot was.
You think that's a granny knot.
Speaker 8 (23:05):
I believe so.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Yes, so that appears to be a granny knot.
Speaker 8 (23:08):
Twenty nine shows it most clearly.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
Yeah, So how sure are you? Like you just one
hundred percent sure that's what that is? Yes, okay, And
so that's a you say, that's a relatively easy knot
for people to tie or learn how to tie.
Speaker 8 (23:21):
It's very easy because you just do the same thing twice.
When you're making a granny knot, you either tie left
over right and tuck it under and then do that again,
or you tuck right under left and do it again.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Now, I know you said it's pretty you know it's
pretty easy to tire. I love people know how to
tie it. But are there any applications or jobs for
people tied a lot?
Speaker 8 (23:50):
For example, there are a number of places where non
knock tires tie a lot of the same thing, because
the old saying goes, if you can't tie the right knot,
tie lots. Yeah, so people tend to repeat something if
they think that it's working. Have you ever seen the
Show's Survivor.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yes, it's been a while.
Speaker 8 (24:13):
And in that they generally have a number of knots
that are used to hold things like bags or keys
or something like that that people then have to undo.
And in fact, what most of those are are overhead
knots and half hitches.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Let me ask you this question.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
So I can see that there's hair wrapped up in
this knot, is this a good knot to tie if
you're going to strangle somebody? Because it doesn't sinch up,
does it?
Speaker 8 (24:46):
It does sinch up on it? Jams.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Okay, what does that? What does jam mean?
Speaker 8 (24:52):
It means it can't be undone easily.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Oh, so this would be a good knot for people
to tie if you're trying to strangle somebody.
Speaker 8 (24:59):
Well, it is and it isn't, you know. Depending on
how well you want the knot to hold, then a
jamming knot is a good not to have. However, if
you want to be able to undo it again, then
a jamming knot is not a good kno to have. Now,
(25:19):
in this case, I'm assuming that there would be a
need for having some sort of knot that jammed. Does
that mean that the person that tied it knew that
before they tied it? No, not necessarily anyway.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
Okay, So I actually interviewed the lady who this was
used on, and he just left it on her body,
and when she came to she said she had a
hard time getting it undone. Does that sound like it fits.
Speaker 8 (25:49):
With Yeah, that's absolutely consistent. And one that's tied as
tightly as that is, it's extremely likely that it would
be very difficult to undo unless you had a stick
or a screwdriver or some other metal implement that you
could actually use to insert into the knot and then
(26:11):
be able to lever it open. But basically, if I
ever come across a knot that I want to undo
and I find that it was a granny knot, I'll
take a knife to it.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Okay, let me ask you this.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
I think I found online that you had been called
as an expert sometimes in court cases or criminal cases.
So in other killers who use ligatures like this, is
this a common knot in that case?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Or is this kind of an uncommon knot?
Speaker 8 (26:42):
I would say it's a common knot in knots of
criminal passion. It's not a common knot where the individual
that tied it is more completely aware of other forms
of not that may be more convenient, maybe more speedy,
(27:05):
maybe more convenient to tie.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Okay, So I mean, can you give an estimate maybe
on maybe how many cases have you have you consulted
on like this before?
Speaker 8 (27:20):
I would say probably twenty maybe twenty five.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
Do you have any idea how often or not somewhere
this is used like a percentage or anything.
Speaker 8 (27:30):
No, I would have to guess, and I really don't
enjoy guessing.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Okay, Okay, I was just asking.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
I was just trying to understand maybe if this was
common or uncommon as far as people who use, you know,
tied ligatures is.
Speaker 8 (27:46):
I would say it's common, probably more than a half,
but I have no data to back that up.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
But it looks like that that the part of the
shirt that was torn off to make the ligature was
like the next or something.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
It's like a ham.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Is that what you're saying there?
Speaker 8 (28:04):
Yeah, it's something from a seam or other joining of
two pieces of fabric, and that forms the stronger part
of the fabric of a T shirt, whether it's the
neck or the arm or the hammer around the bottom.
If you're using a fabric of any sort, you'll look
(28:27):
for whatever is the toughest part of that fabric, and
the toughest part of the fabric even though it's technically
weakened by the knots, it is strengthened by the folding
of the fabric on either side and then the close
and tight stitching that's used along it to be able
(28:51):
to derive a relatively strong and relative is a very
important word there, a relative strong ligature.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Mister Philpott continued to explain the significance.
Speaker 8 (29:04):
Using the fabric itself by itself. If that were ripped apart.
And you've undoubtedly seen scenes from movies and from Wild
Wrestling Foundation people who tear their t shirt apart. The
fabric itself tears very easily, but the seams don't, and
(29:24):
as soon as it gets to a seam, that's where
people have the greatest difficulty in tearing it apart. Therefore,
that's the strongest part. Yeah, it makes sense from the
point of view of, well, what's the strongest bit that
I've got here, because I'm afraid of this tearing apart.
So and then they tug on or handle the piece
that's got the seam in it and take it from
(29:47):
there to use the strength of the seam to form
a relatively strong piece of ligature.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
There was one thing I wanted to share with you,
and when I ask her, this was at least his
second victim.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
His DNA was found on the.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Other However, he was thirty seven or thirty eight at
this time, and the FBI profile that we work with said,
there's no way he started killing it at thirty seven
or thirty eight, so you know there's probably more. And
one of the reasons I'm asking is because there was
another lady found very close She was from four hundred
miles away, yet found very within two miles of the
(30:26):
other victim that they found his DNA on and a ligature.
She had been dead for probably six years, at least
four years we know, and there was a ligature found
around the neck the bones.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
What was left.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
So we're trying to do work to see if.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You know he was involved with that one as well.
Speaker 5 (30:47):
So anyway your health on that has it has been
really important.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
So I want to thank you for your time with this.
Speaker 8 (30:53):
You're very welcome. In most of the cases where ligatures
are employed, if strangling is a part of the not
time that's gone on, there would generally speaking be some
collapse or other breakage of the hyoid bone, and that
would be something that the medical examiner should have looked
(31:16):
at and prepared in their report, and that may well
be something further to look.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
At more on that next time. Murder one oh one
is executive produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Alex Campbell, Courtney Armstrong,
Andrew Arnot and me Jeff Shane. Additional producing by Connor
(31:42):
Powell and Gabriel Castillo. Editing by Jeff Twa and Davey
Cooper Wassser music by Vancor Music. Murder one oh one
is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite show.
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