100 - The 100th Episode

Karen and Georgia celebrate their 100th episode with a surprise case.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Nice nip cap, don't ye down down down, yell down.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yell cry.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Welcome to my Favorite Murder by Holy loud Stephen. That hey,
it's the one hundred episode of.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
My favorite murder podcast. Remember the podcast you've listened to
ninety nine point.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Eight times. Holy crap.

Speaker 4 (00:52):
I'm pouring myself and Stephen a glass of this beautiful
rose champagne that today I was vincent.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
And I were walking by this wine store. I was like, oh,
let me go.

Speaker 4 (01:02):
Ahead and get a bottle for the one hundredth episode.
And I'm looking through this thing and this cute girl
with blue hairs like.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
I love the podcast. I'm like, oh my god, thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
And then the chick behind the counter who owns the
place is like, I love it too, and they both
started like talking to me about it, and it was
really sweet, and so I just wanted to say thank
you to Eno Vino, to Susanna at Eno Vino and
Jen's Spain photography.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Well exciting. I have a cup of tea. I have
a cup of tea, and we have a cake. Come
from Carvel right. Stephen went and picked it up at
the one Los Angeles location that's been there for a
long time.

Speaker 5 (01:42):
Yeah, they've been there for a while and they were
very sweet and yeah they've been after ice cream cake.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
Give it to us. Yeah, amazing, so fucking cool.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
I mean, I don't even remember having the conversation about
talking about how we were going to have this cake
on this day.

Speaker 4 (01:55):
I don't remember talking about ninety nine episodes worth of things.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
So true, here we are, and yet we're just gonna
keep on talking. Yeah, bloody blah. Let's first, we have
presence from Stephen.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, let's just describe these, because we walked upstairs into
the beautiful podcast loft and on the podcast coffee table,
they're two what I referred to as hat boxes.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Gorgeous red like gilded hat boxes. Spoilers.

Speaker 4 (02:24):
Okay, oh okay, other hats another ap. Oh my god,
this is beautiful.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
It is ooh uh oh what are these? Are these
head mics?

Speaker 4 (02:38):
They're like, are these like Janet Jackson mics?

Speaker 6 (02:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:42):
Steven, God, Stephen got us head mikes. This is what
we're having. One hundred podcasts.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Is like, holy shit, Stephen, we're gonna record. We're gonna
record like gamers do, and they when they record themselves
for YouTube.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
It's totally true.

Speaker 5 (03:03):
When you can do all your dance moves and everything.

Speaker 4 (03:05):
Oh, Steven, you can like you can move your body
the way you've always wanted to Karen when we're.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Recording, I've wanted one of these my whole life.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Shut up.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
I've just never had a reason for it. I love it, Stephen, Stephen,
thank you. We didn't get you.

Speaker 5 (03:21):
We're going to No, I'm glad that. I mean, just like,
they're just so fun, they're beautiful. Just watching Danny Jackson's
just like.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, do it.

Speaker 4 (03:31):
Oh, we're going to be on the next level. Can
we plug them in? Now?

Speaker 5 (03:35):
That might take a while.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Can we just put them on?

Speaker 4 (03:37):
Though?

Speaker 3 (03:38):
You can wear them.

Speaker 4 (03:39):
They kind of look like like retain the retainers and
people headgear. They look like headgear if you need a visual,
And it's totally like what someone would wear like the
top gun or something like that.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
And a and they have like they've got like foam.
It's just really intense.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
I feel like I get very It's not often that
someone gives me the perfect gift because I do I
don't talk about what I like that much. I only
talk about and focus on what I hate. And this
is just such a fucking hallous This is such a
perfect gift. It's such a lovely Uh, it's so perfect

(04:19):
for such a lovely gesture.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
For us, for this occasion. Everything about it never happier
in my life. Yes, well, it's just yes, your blessing special,
thank you. You know what it is.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
He's forced to listen to us, uh huh, So he
has to, he has to pay attention to what we say.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
He doesn't want the mic to keep bumping against my
teeth anymore like it always does.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
The foam on teeth is real gross to begin with.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
How is your the background noise of just gift wrap
paper constantly being touched.

Speaker 4 (04:49):
I mean that's a new so oh yeah, Karen, I
think that you're just going to start wearing this always.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
I think you're exactly sleep and when you're in the
car and you're on the phone, I.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Have to say, I have a lot of the same
feelings that I had when I was I think I've
told you the story when I was like four or
five and my aunt Jean gave my sister a pair
of red cowboy booths for her birthday, and the second
I saw her open the box, I screamed, grabbed them,
put them on, and would not take them off, and
I wore them for like three years, and this I
have very much the same feeling.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
Can I say?

Speaker 4 (05:21):
So, you and I had blah blah blah, said like,
we'll get each other presents for the hundredth episode.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
So that looks great on you, does it?

Speaker 4 (05:28):
My god?

Speaker 3 (05:28):
You look like you look like you work at a
call center.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
You look like like Ann Rule in the seventies or
Ted Bundy. You look like you work next to Ted Bundy.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
I'm trying to help people, but I'm also making friends
with one of the most legendary serial killers of all time.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yes, yeah, So I was like, well, what do I
get Karen?

Speaker 4 (05:46):
And I've been stressing about it for like a week
spoiler alert, I got you nothing, which is totally my style.
I stressed and stress. Don't do anything about it.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
You froze.

Speaker 4 (05:54):
So I had it, but I had good ideas and actually,
initially those red kawboy boots you talked about, I was
gonna get a cake made that were red cowboy boots.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (06:04):
No.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
I didn't do it, though, but that doesn't matter. That's
an idea.

Speaker 4 (06:08):
I had a couple, so I want points for them,
even though I get fifty points for red cowboy boot cakes.
I have a great imagination and crippling anxiety that doesn't
let me do anything about it.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
It's that followed through. But I am an honest believer,
and it's the thought the count too.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
I really am.

Speaker 4 (06:22):
I am too okay, great, So that was gonna be one.
Then I was thinking I'd either go get a tattoo
or have a tattoo artist come here for us and
give us SSDGM tattoos while we were recording. But I
couldn't remember if you wanted one or not. Too Okay, Well,
then I would have gotten one.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
I mean, I love the idea of it. Yeah, but
it's just not me.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
I have a tattoo that I shouldn't have gotten in
the first place, and in getting it, realized I'm not
a tattoo person.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
I get that. So that was another idea. And then oh,
and then I was just gonna wrap.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
I was gonna gift wrap really well, beautiful, like Christmasy
gift wrapping, orgeous, just a pan of cheesy potatoes like.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
My Lady from Unhealthy Obsessions or.

Speaker 4 (07:07):
Whatever that TLC show is. Oh yeah, because you love
cheesy potatoes. Potatoes on backstage a lot. Yeah, so I
was gonna do some version of potato and cheese or
pasta and ches, maybe maca.

Speaker 6 (07:17):
I make a good mac and cheese. Maybe that green
things make us cry someday cheese potatoes, Yeah, save our lives. Well,
here's thank you for all those thoughts and for stressing
about it. That's even more of a gift of like
drue anxiety over it means a lot. I came up
with the idea and when you said, oh, really like

(07:38):
and then I was like yes, and then immediately forgot
and haven't thought about it since I walked in the door,
and you were like.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
I didn't get you anything, and I was like, okay,
You're like, oh, why would you?

Speaker 4 (07:47):
I don't ever get me anything, and I'm like plays
both said. But I immediately I was like, oh, thank god,
she forgot too, or she like didn't do it either.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
It's just so classical me. That would be like my
bossy idea.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
And then I'm just like, I don't know what you're
talking about any well.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
Because then I didn't follow through, right it does? You
have no memory of it, and I have no follow through.
And together that's one hundred episodes.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Man, dude, we are we It was a match made
in heaven for real, it really was, because it's like
it's a friend of mine. The other day I forgot
we had made dinner plans and then she texted me.
I was like, now, like I had to move one
night on her. Then she texted and she was like,
now I have to move a night and I was
like yay, Like it's never bad news to me. Yeah,

(08:27):
when you flake cancel, I love it, or I just
never hear from you again.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
It's always a relief to me if you see me
out at night. I really like you, you know what
I mean? Yet, like I or you, you.

Speaker 4 (08:38):
Already think I'm a flake and I can't. I've used
up all my flaking miss on you. Yes you're scared. Yeah.
There are a couple of friends that are like, oh,
you're actually here. But then they're always like, but you
always make me come to your side of town. When
I'm like where should we go, I'm like, down the street,
it's so great over here.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
You will. But here's the thing, and this is how
it is.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Sometimes you got a cop if you live in an
area where it's just not that cool, like you can
go out. This is the thing you have to like
master plan. You have to think of everybody in the plant,
because there are people who are like, oh, I'm married
and have a kid, So if we go to dinner,
I don't give a shit where we go because it's
all the same to me. But if you're like a
single lady trying to maximize your time because you finally

(09:16):
left the house after two weeks, you don't want to
go to fucking the Grandma restaurant.

Speaker 4 (09:22):
Don't want to go to like when your friend's like
when you're single and your friends like, just come over
and we'll make I'll make dinner. No, I want the
possibility of seeing a hawkeye at a bar. Don't waste
my time in front of your TV.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
Now I percent get that.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yes, yeah, it's like if I if I'm going to
make the monstrous efforts of putting clothes on this body
and rolling on outside, we've got to actually do something
that's like worth the while.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
Plus, there's no way you're fucking whatever salad you throw
together is going to be good as like a cheese
plate from the fucking nice restaurant. Yeah, and let's spend
some money. Come on, come on, let's do it cares time.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
And did you hear about the asteroid that came within
three miles of the Earth. No, I love that though.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
I mean guys were on a clock. My God, maximize
this fun please.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
This Christmas season.

Speaker 4 (10:09):
I went to my uh Hanaka party last weekend over
the weekend, which was super fun. And all my young
sweet cousins listen to the podcast How Young. Well, they're
like in there, they're like, just had a college so
they're all cool. Have Savannah, Jillian High ladies. Hi. They're
just like sweet little angels and then and I love them.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
It's so very cool. Yeah, I have family too who
are like it's people that you don't expect. I was
the young like twenty year olds that I know or
that like Lauren and Connor and Johnny know are my family.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
You know.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
I'm always like, they don't care about anything from my eras,
Like why would they? Right there, we're boring old people.
We're boring old people. They're all making their own homemade porn.
It's like the life, the way we live is so
different than it's like we might as well be from
different sides of the planet. So good God, bless go
do your thing. So when they come and they're like,

(11:07):
oh my god, all my friends like you, it's like
what It honestly feels like a ghost has walked through the.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
Wall and been like, oh my god, we like you.
A validating you. Suddenly it's like, oh my god, I'm not.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
It's validating you from people that you're like, I have
to dismiss your group because it's sad when old people
want young people to think they're cool.

Speaker 4 (11:28):
But podcasts, there's something about them. It's all old people.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
It's mind control. It's mind control. Mm hmmm. How's my
headset look?

Speaker 4 (11:36):
It looks still glorious. You look like Judith from HR.
And then every time you say something and that you
have to touch your the ear piece lightly.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
That's right because I'm also I have to be honest.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
I'm a little bit playing news copter for pilot, like
I'm a traffic reporter.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
Right now, Karen and Karen Kayne Sky Guys, I'm looking
right down at the I five and everything's on.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
Oh on my way here. That's the only thing you
can say.

Speaker 4 (12:03):
That's like the only time that ring Karen kot is
when there's a fire in the South planned.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
It's always on fire.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Hey, it's twenty eighteen and we're on fire. Sorry I
did a terrible radio voice. But on the exit to
come here, there was a there was a slow down.
Of course, it was I went five miles an hour
the whole time. This it's so fascinating to talk about
La Trap.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
Everyone loves it. But when I took the exit, there
was like a huge tow truck.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
And then when we all had to drive by it
real slow, it was a Maserati that had rear ended
like a Kia, and it was I laughed so hard
because a Maseratis, why do you drive that car? No,
you're just flossing. You're just trying to make people think
you're important.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
Raty. Oh god. And then one listener who drives a
Maserati right now is like, I fucking knew it. My
brother told me it was cool. I fucking did.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
I fucking knew it, you know. And I'm taking this
fork we brought forks up here. I'm I'm digging into
the carbell.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
Cake, eating food on a podcast into a microphone. It's
now a MS as mr right.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
It's as MS A s A p oh my, it's
not so good.

Speaker 4 (13:13):
Fuck, Okay, let's fucking cooking channel Unique Sweet Sush for
a minute, do it?

Speaker 3 (13:17):
Can I say?

Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (13:19):
Seven? Are you gonna eat any of this? Even there's a.

Speaker 4 (13:20):
Pork budge of the whale cake where I said grab
the cake in four and three forks, and you got
so excited that I didn't say plates, because there's no
fucking chance we're cutting this and put it on plate.
It's kind of monsters eating we are Yep. This isn't
fucking tea time with Karen and Georgia or whatever. It's
an ice cream cake, but there's like a layer of
marshmallow fluff in it.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
It's crunchy from the like cookie pieces.

Speaker 4 (13:45):
That's what it's like famous for, right right, And it's
got the like fudgy frosting and just a little bit
of cake.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
It's not a ton of cake, it's.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
There's barely any cake that. There's also a strip of caramel.
Oh my, underneath this fudge frosting. It's like else is
watering and I'm eating it at the same time.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
That's how good it is. What's really fun about eating
a thing?

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Wait?

Speaker 3 (14:06):
I should talk mm hm, I.

Speaker 4 (14:08):
Was chuck in the microphone. What's really fun about eating
a thing? Like this, like when you become an adult,
is you gonna eat it and make as big a
mess as you want?

Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (14:17):
Mmm. Also, here's what's really funny.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
I think there's a lot of people on the East
Coast that probably think this is hilarious because we're describing
a thing that'd be like.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
It's like the peanut butter is right next to the
jelly where they're like, yeah, everyone's had this.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
You don't need to describe it. This is our childhood.
Nobody cares. Every single person had this for their birthday.
Bar It's like you, but we didn't know. I've never
had that in my life. M m neither. It's the best. Fuck.
Let's get sugar high m hmmm and party mm hmmm.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
You know, it's so funny if we can get into
it really quickly. Someone tweeted today at us yes and said, okay,
hold on, Stephen, wait hold on.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
They said, please eat a whole cake on the show,
and I said, sounds that's right. When we did it,
I'd love to. He said, you know what, that's a
great idea. That's my gift to you is dessert for dinner.
Oh my god, that's so good. I want to cry, Steven, don't.

Speaker 4 (15:13):
You love it?

Speaker 3 (15:13):
Steven?

Speaker 4 (15:14):
Keep eating it so good, Keep eating it, keep beating
it while I find this tweet?

Speaker 3 (15:21):
All right?

Speaker 4 (15:21):
A guy named his Twitter handle is Manny Patinkin. Oh
my God, Nanny Patinkin Manny twenty one eighty nine, Texas
added Stan tour set. So you guys talked about the
staircase death a lot in the start of your podcast days,
but you guys never fully got into it, and I
still have no idea what it is. And owl question

(15:44):
mark someone sent us that today. Really, yes, that's hilarious.
How weird is that?

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Because on our first episode and Stephen went back and
listened to it, wrote up some nice.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
Notes for us. It's called due diligence, that's right, and
he did he did it. He did his diligent dude.
He did his duty.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
So we didn't have to do no duty exactly. But
we talked about the staircase. We both believed I think
for a while we believed we had covered it, but
it was just conversation, a long conversation, and then the
fun reveal that you told me was that then when
we decided okay for the hundredth episode, we're going to

(16:24):
cover the Staircase together.

Speaker 4 (16:25):
Efficially, I just realized I'm like trying to surprise everyone
by telling them that we're reading the Staircase. But then
I just realized they saw in the description of the
podcast episode when they press play probably yeah, so it's
not a surprise.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
It's not. And you know at some point you got
to reveal the surprise.

Speaker 4 (16:38):
What if, Stephen, you put in the description surprise hundredth
episode case.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
Okay, oh my god, they're gonna fucking shit, guys. Surprise,
but there is a surprise, because then what was your reveal?

Speaker 4 (16:52):
Okay, so yesterday, like yesterday, last week. This is how
fucking this is how professional this podcast is. As Karen
Severn are walking out of my door after recorded, and
we're trying to guess, like whatever which we were gonna
we want to cover a story together, blah blah blah.
And as we're walking out the door, are you walking
out the door? I'm like, stair One of us is like, Staircase, great, goodbye.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
I think it's you. Okay, uh, and so credit, thank you,
but I don't want to. I don't need it.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
I turn on the Staircase to watch it and realize
I have just been bulsing it this past couple of
years when people are like, have you seen the Staircase,
And I'm like, yeah, because I don't want to be
like no, of course, you know, and I kind of
convinced myself that I had seen it. But as we're
watching episode one, I was like, oh my god, I've
never fucking seen this. I've watched the forensic files about it,

(17:37):
and I've read a ton about it, but I've never
fucking watched the actual documentary.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
It's so funny.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Basically, the entire relationship and our story, our origin story,
is predicated on the fact that we both talked endlessly
about the staircase at that at Matt's Halloween party, and
all of that's a lie.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
That's like a miss that I remember about it. No,
of course, but I didn't know. I didn't know, you
know what. After watching most of it, I didn't know
what I was talking about. God, it just goes to
show what a fucking glass of whiskey will do.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
But you did in that way where this is this
is one of the stories that's been around for so long,
and we've talked about that where the first couple true
crime like you know, forty eight hours types of shows
that I saw about it presented it in a very clean,
clear cut way.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
Yeah. I went back and watched the forensic files, which
we'll talk about once we get through it. But it's
definitely this is the story. And then shit just keeps
throughout the years getting added onto it. Yes, and it's
really crazy.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
And I do have to say watching the documentary gave
me a completely different.

Speaker 4 (18:49):
So guys, go watch the Staircase. It's like a ten
part documentary. Yeah, forty five minutes each or something like that.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
This is what I love about this case is it's
all opinion. I mean there there's just so many potential.
This is I feel like this is the part of
true crime where people started to go, oh, yeah, the
justicism and I should say this white people who are
like not people of color started to go, oh, the

(19:16):
justice system could get swayed one way or the other
based on what the people in charge think of who
they're trying, right, and that I don't think anyone really
really looked at that much before this case, where there's like, now,
look at it this way, and then you're like, oh
my god, they hated him because of this and that
I mean, this is.

Speaker 4 (19:33):
The original jinks. This is the original making a murderer. Like,
if you have feelings about that, you know you need
to watch this. I think this was way before it's
you know time, and I think this also two years before.
It seems so vintage, doesn't it.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
Well, the like the American Justice I watched today was
super vindu.

Speaker 4 (19:55):
Yeah yeah, well I watched the Forensic Okay, let's talk
about the fucking case.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
All right, let's get into this. Do you get into it?
So this is this is the death of Kathleen Peterson period.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
The episode of The American Justice that I watched starring
Bill Curtis from two thousand and four was called Blood
on the Staircase.

Speaker 4 (20:16):
Okay, well, the Forensic Files is called a novel idea
because he was a novelist. It's a novel idea to
kill your wife. Yeah, I'm like, oh man, yeah, love it.
Blood on the Staircase. Okay, sorry, ste hold one second.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Can I just say, yeah, oh wait, are we going
to cut that entirely?

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Because Georgia cut up to get something and as she
walked over to her stairs started walking down then and goes,
oh my god, what if I fall down?

Speaker 3 (20:50):
The stairs. Wouldn't that be great? Have I just died?
Are you falling down the stairs? So clean? One hundredth
episode about a staircase fall. About a staircase fall.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
You can't see anything, so Steven and I can actually
say anything we want happened. Yeah, and as long as
we're on the same page.

Speaker 4 (21:05):
And the recording would be played in court over and
over again because as I yell, I go no, Karen
and Stephen, That's what I yell for no reason.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
And then I'll be like your honor. You can clearly
hear Stephen stroking his mustache.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
You know he's sitting down.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, you can you hear me eating cake and drooling
about fucking well, where was the cake.

Speaker 4 (21:26):
Placed at the time? Was it on the staircase? It
was into my mouth, okay the whole time. Should we
just read them at the same time?

Speaker 3 (21:32):
And sure? And then I was thinking, you mean.

Speaker 4 (21:35):
Two people talk on the same time because they'ready on
December Yeah, nineteeneteen nineth seventy two. Also, I also, I
think at the beginning of this we should say what
we think, like what we think the truth.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
Is, okay, And I think we should say that till
the end.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
Well I'm going to convince you at my truth. Okay,
what are you about you?

Speaker 3 (21:57):
What about you? Well, I was just gonna I mean
maybe we just talked through through okay it and as
we go.

Speaker 4 (22:03):
And we'll just and then we're yelling at each other.
Then we have different opinions. Yes, if we're like building
each other up, if love can build a bridge, yeah,
then we both think he's guilty.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
I definitely think he's good. Me too. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:17):
Yeah. Well you know what's funny is, before I watched
the doc The Staircase, I thought I was like, well,
they how this theory makes so much sense, which we'll
get to you guys. Yes, But now that I'm like,
oh no, you're so sweet, baby angel. You think that
fucking UFOs exist?

Speaker 3 (22:36):
And how they do? Now now we know they do.

Speaker 4 (22:40):
They do.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Alien unidentified alien alloys have been discovered. Aliens exist, We've
all I've known that anyone that watches ancient Aliens knows
it and has known it for quite some time.

Speaker 4 (22:54):
And I had a Siamese cat knows that they're fucking alien.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
That aliens live here. They were here first, it's their planet,
we're visiting it everything. Wait no, but uh I was
going to say that, I think that the reason that
documentary is so amazing and effective is because you never see,
or you rarely see the murderer's family featured the way

(23:21):
this family's featured. So you go through it with the family, yeah,
and you want what the family wants because there's so
much pain and horror going on, and the layers keep
unpeeling where you're like, oh no, So then you start
to understand why.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
People do the things they I had it was so
watching it was so problematic for me because it kind
of it made me what's so funny about the documentary
is clearly made from a standpoint that he is innocent,
which is so ironic that it made me one hundred
percent sure that he's guilty. So there's something fucking off there.

(23:58):
And what is off is Michael Person's personality. Hell yeah,
and how fucking creepy and narcissistic and wrong he is.
And I swear to god, the two adopted daughters, they're
in a fucking cult. Don't call your dad right because
he's because you got to.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Get off the phone with your dad. Those girls. Man,
it's very sad, but it's but.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
I think, well, I think that documentary wasn't necessarily on
his side. I think they were doing the we're just veritey,
we're here to record what's happening, and what happens happened left.

Speaker 4 (24:29):
Out so much evidence that that that's I just don't
think that's possible.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Oh okay, well, but I think it in in pretending
that it's guiding you this way, opens the door to
let you go that way, you know what I mean.
It's that thing of like you can come all the
way into the house because we know he's innocent, and
then you're like, yeah, I smell a rat, which none
of that would have happened if they hadn't done it

(24:55):
that way.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
It's like, it's the case of fucking this guy who
thinks that he seems very empathetic and that end seems
deep and interesting when really everyone is so onto him.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
Can I read what he's what he can?

Speaker 4 (25:09):
I just can we start by me saying, uh, when
he got out, when he got out on bail of prison,
the first thing he.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Said, are you ready for Are you ready for this?
To say that, oh, do you have it on? Go ahead,
and then we'll see if it's the same thing. Okay,
Kathleen was my life. I whisper her name in my
heart a thousand times. She is there, but I can't
stop crying.

Speaker 7 (25:30):
Kathleen, where's my life? I whispered her name in my
heart a thousand times. She is there, but I can't
stop crying.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
It's just like I would never have done anything. That's okay,
I am charges real loud, and we will prove it
been for it.

Speaker 4 (25:51):
Well, if we're gonna, I have such a talk about
about those last two lines too. Oh my god, let's
get into this. This is gonna be fun because those
last two lines.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Oh god, I have really quick So you and I
just picked out the exact same moment where because that
was also.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
In that episode.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
By the way, everyone he's in an asphalt parking lot
when he says.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
That with camp with news cameras in front of him,
and he is doing the worst acting.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
It's like a sorrow.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
It's it's it was faux somber, and then like, I'm
a really good writer. So here's you can see him
practicing this in the mirror. It is the fakest fucking
thing you've ever seen. And it is such a presentation,
it's so much artific.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
In the background is his poor daughter.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Okay, curios, God, I was going to say, it's starting
from the nine to one one call, which is also
insanely faked. Okay, well, here's what I told Stean, and
let me out here up for the you know what,
we might need to start doing things at the same
one at the episode.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
One hundred through ninety nine is us two guys, you're
not knowing.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Either, Yeah, we don't know what the case is. Either
that or this is because we both want to say something.
The most irritating episode you've ever.

Speaker 4 (26:58):
Done, the biggest cluster buck, which is why like some
people who don't know what this case is are like,
can you just tell me what happened first?

Speaker 3 (27:05):
If you don't know what the case is, you know what,
you know what, you know what, Please don't hang up
the phone. Hang up the phone, all right? Okay.

Speaker 4 (27:14):
On December ninth, two thousand and one, this dude named
Michael Peterson you've heard his voice, he's a creep, called
nine one one to report that he had just found
his wife of fourteen years, forty eight year old Kathleen, unconscious,
and he said he thought that she fell down the
stairs of their Forest Hills home in Durham, North Carolina.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
YEP.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
Michael said that he had been outside by the pool
and had come in at two forty am to find
Kathleen at the foot of their stairs. He maintained that
she must have fallen down the stairs up because they
had been drinking and she had taken valuum all night.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
Interjected any fucking moment.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
Oh, I was just gonna says. Volium is kind of
a one off thing. And my experience, you know, it's
not like you party with it all night long, right,
you take the one you're gonna.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
Go to bed good, Yeah, and a story. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 4 (27:55):
But when police arrived, the amount of blood on the
walls made them suspicious.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
So tu's college.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
Your reports show that that Kathleen had an alcohol content
of point zero seven percent? How many, Karen? I want
to ask you something right now, I was thinking, can
be fun. We gotta we got a breathalyzer and made
Steven get that drunk and.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
See how that is. It's not that drunk. And I
way say that's the stairs four healthy glasses of wine?

Speaker 4 (28:20):
Yeah, because point eight is legally right, that's that's not
illegal in North Carolina.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
But see my point is it's not that high, like
you can get arrested for buzz driving because point eight
is not sloppy, drunk crazy point eight.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
You shouldn't drive at that point. You have impaired yourself,
but you're not, you know, you know, so Devil's.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
Advocate, it's not impossible that that at that point you'd
fall down the flight of stairs if you were running
up them.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, but sorry, she's running up stairs. Yeah, and she's
falling backwards, not not from the top of the stairs,
but almost from the bottom of the stairs.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
Well, let's get to that, okay.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
Two So, Michael claimed that he had been outside by
the pool with Kathleen. They had been talking because they're
madly in love with each other, according to him, until
she went in around midnight, and that he had come
home come back in around forty five minutes later.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
Two four. I don't know the timelines where to find
her at the foot of the stairs. So, but here's
the thing.

Speaker 4 (29:22):
It was fucking December and he's saying he's sitting by
the pool finishing his drink and shit and shorts and
a T shirt. It's fifty to fifty five degrees outside,
you know how you do, right.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
Which is like, yeah, your couch and your warmhouse is
whatever forty feet away. You're just gonna go sit by
the ball unless they were fighting for forty five minutes.
But it's also a fucking palatial mansion, so there's eight
hundred rooms for you to go into. Yes, but I
mean like if they got into a spat at the pool, yeah,
and she stormed in a if she fell so badly

(29:54):
that she was killed, you would hear that, and you
would hope that you would be clonk even if you
didn't know for sure, you'd be like, maybe I should
go check, even if I'm mad, I should go check.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
He doesn't do that right for an hour?

Speaker 4 (30:07):
Yes, okay, da da da okay, And the other thing
is too, so he calls nine to one one and
before the ambulance gets there. Between that time, his son
Todd from a previous marriage, who's like in his twenties,
is already there.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
Why's he doing there? Okay? Well he lived at the
house though, No he didn't. Oh I thought he did.
I don't think he did.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
He was out of the house at a party. Yes,
this was a the American Justice. As I watched, he
was down the street at a party. Okay, and then
came home.

Speaker 4 (30:36):
So the autopsy report concluded that Kathleen sustained severe injuries,
including a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage, which isn't
the hyoid bone now we's talked about, but it's something similar,
and seven lacerations at the top and back of her
head consistent with blows from a blunt object caused by
homicidal assault, and had died from blood loss ninety minutes

(30:58):
to two hours after sustaining her injuries.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
So here's what I was thinking.

Speaker 4 (31:03):
Since we both think he's guilty and it's all bullshit,
should we listen to the nine to one one call?

Speaker 3 (31:08):
No, come on, Okay, you can play it. You can
play it, but it's we can so we can say
it too.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
It's normally nine one one calls upset me because it's
a real moment of the worst. It like makes my
adrenaline go yeah, like, but this instead fills me with
absolute disgust because it's insanely fake.

Speaker 4 (31:26):
That's why I want to listen to it, because it's like,
do you have it? I told Stephen I have it ready.
Just it's just so unbelievable to me.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
The street rom Why why don't come of access. What
kind of act supersed can be conscious? Conscious?

Speaker 4 (31:48):
No, he's not conscious.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
How many stayers did you anail?

Speaker 4 (31:52):
How many for there?

Speaker 3 (31:54):
How many stairs, calm nails, stir com so I don't know.

Speaker 5 (32:03):
Get somebody who.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Back in the ambulance, I ask you questions.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Okay, he is the fakery is he wants to get
off that phone. He he is playing a part and
he can't sustain it. He's delivering his part and that's
all he can do. And he it's that thing in
like acting where it's like if you scream really loud,
then you've are there's nowhere else to go.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
So he did.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
He didn't start trying to be calm, which is I
think what people normally do or if they're having a reaction,
they they listen because they need help. So they want
to listen to what the person who can give them
help is doing and saying.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
Because the person on the other line is going to
tell them how to potentially save this person's life.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
So you need to calm down and listen to them.
That's what they're trained to do.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, but he's not doing any of those things because
he just wants the big show of how.

Speaker 4 (32:54):
Upset he right, and he wants to deliver his information
a that she's still alive, to lie about the timeline
and that she fell downstairs. The fact that he doesn't
mention and if you see the photos, it's an insane
amount of blood, and the fact that he doesn't yell
there's so much blood. Oh my, you know, like most
people if they see the mam, but a blood would
freak the fuck out.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yes, uh, you know the blood part when you like
in the when the one that I was watching, the
second the camera goes in and they have like the
police camera of walking in the amount of blood that's
there is so ridiculous for a stair fall, for a
slip and fall downstairs, Yeah, which is not if you
think about like when you fall down you skin your knee,
if you hit your head, you'd have a little bit

(33:35):
of blood.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
There is blood everywhere.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
At the bottom of the stair cooling and then smeared
and then splattered over it like it's nuts.

Speaker 4 (33:44):
And the other thing that this so this person or
slap Franco, who's a criminologist, she's a really great website.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
M A l k. E. Crime Notes.

Speaker 4 (33:55):
She she does the thing I love, which she breaks
down the wording and lot of his speeches and things
he says, and one of them is that when she
says how many stairs, that's a question he did not
expect to hear. And it takes him fifteen to twenty
five seconds from the beginning of the club to answer
that because he wasn't near the body when he was

(34:16):
asked that question.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
Uh huh.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
So the thing is, and she says, most people when
someone is hurt are next to the body because they're
ready to help and they want direction on how to help.
But he was in another room, away from the mess,
and so he stalls by saying, uh, stairs, And it's
only because he has to run over and see how
many stairs there are.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
And they said when they did the luminol test, they
showed barefoot tracks away from the area and going into
different parts of the house.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
So he was in the blood. He was standing over
her body.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
And then left, which is like, if your loved one,
the person that you love the most in the world,
was laying in a pile of blood, where are you going?

Speaker 3 (34:59):
Yeah, like, what doesn't it doesn't really track no, seemingly yes,
well we're always right, so okay.

Speaker 4 (35:12):
So also there's a bloody shoeprint. So, so Kathleen is
found in this prone position on her back at the
bottom of the staircase, like laying up the first couple
stairs right, So she's on her back, but on the
back of her sweatpants is a shoeprint that matches the

(35:33):
shoes that Michael was wearing that night. But when the
ambulance arrives and the MT arrives, he's not wearing shoes
for some reason. He's fucking barefoot and his socks and
shoes are off and like near her body. Why is
that because he didn't want to track it, probably right,
So how would her how would his shoeprint end up there?

Speaker 2 (35:51):
You mean look like when he kicks her down the
stairs or kicks her from behind or something. Yeah. Well,
also that when they get into and I mean, we're
not gonna be able to this chronologically, I don't know,
it's REXIT for the discussion, but like the in the
case when when they talk about the when the defense
is talking about what possibly could have happened to make

(36:12):
that much blood.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
That is not an attack and that many and that
many wounds on her head because it's seven wounds, so
it's not like she fell down the stairs and maybe
would have sustained two head injuries. Let's let's be generous,
because we also know she didn't fall from the top
of the stairs. Yeah, she fell from five or six
stairs up. Yeah, so to get seven head injuries, how

(36:35):
did they explain it? It's fucking hilarious.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
She falls, she hits her head, she gets up, spits blood,
Like they're trying to rationalize how blood is everywhere, she
slips and falls back down.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
Which is explaining the fact that she had blood on
the bottoms of her bare feet, even though if she
had so, if she had fallen and become unconscious, she
wouldn't have blood on the bottoms of her feet, right,
So she did, How Like they have to explain that too, right,
So that's then they say that she does that multiple times,
tries to get up, falls and hits her head hard
enough to lacerate her fucking skull.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
So meanwhile, her loving, loving husband is sitting out by
the pool. She is slipping and falling in her own
blood and dying and he doesn't hear it and doesn't
come inside for forty five.

Speaker 4 (37:19):
From a point zero seven wine intake and a valium
I just keep.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Thinking of the time I fell down on the street
in front of the movie theater, my legendary story where
I skin my knee. When you fall down, even like
say eight stairs, you break a hip, you break your
kneecap you I don't think anyone ever does that. But
I'm saying, yes, you sprain your ankle, you get a

(37:45):
concussion on your head, if you did cut your head
a little bit of blood. The idea that there's a
pool of blood, blood splattered on every wall, smeared all around.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
And to be fair, we all know the head the
scalp bleeds profusely.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
Yeah, fair enough, But why would seven lacerations be present
if you know it's.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
It's and all in the same spot. It's not like
all like she's falling down and hit her temple, hit
the back of her head.

Speaker 4 (38:12):
It's all on the back and lower part of her head,
as if she was running up the stairs away from someone.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
Yep, and they hit her with something. It clocked her
like repeatedly beat her down. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
Essentially, what I think is interesting is that there's a
spot of blood on the wall, as if the first
attack had happened. Someone tried to clean up the blood,
and then she wasn't dead and there's blood. There's blood
spray over the spot where someone was trying to clean
the blood off the wall. Yes, as so that means

(38:44):
either I think it's either that she became conscious again
and wasn't dead and he beat her again, or he
tried to clean it, realized it wasn't going to work,
and so tried to cover up that clean spot with
more blood just kind of sprayed it on there.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
Jesus, do you know what I mean? Yes, that's dark.

Speaker 4 (39:02):
I mean, like the idea that then he's just he's
just like dissociated, like but you can tell the difference
between the blood that was already there and the blood
that wasn't that came later.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
There's so many things in this case that make it
so he'll never so people can question this forever. And
one of them is the fucking blood spatter analyst. I mean,
who Dwayne Dwayne.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
Dwayne purely my favorite part of that documentary because he
looks like he was cast by the Coen Brothers.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
There.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
He is the goofiest looking motherfucker, and the way he
talks about the blood spatter, the way he gets excited
like he's the expert here or whatever. And then, of
course come to find out later on after this case,
after he's tried, after he's convicted, this blood spatter guy
turns out, Wait, I have the the details here from

(39:54):
Steven's timeline and also from uh.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
I wrote Dirty Dwayne Deaver.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
A government ordered inquest found the agents of the SBI,
including Dwayne Deaver, repeatedly aided prosecutors and obtaining convictions over
a sixteen year period by misrepresenting blood evidence and keeping
critical notes from the attorneys. It was thirty four cases
where he falsely represented evidence.

Speaker 4 (40:20):
So essentially, Michael Peterson gets found guilty, he spends eight
years in prison, and then fucking dirty Dwayne comes out
that he's a lying liar who lies. Yeah, and all
this shit comes out. And so even if his fucking
even if his blood spatter analysis in this case was
totally correct, it doesn't fucking matter.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
Which some of it is and some of it I
understand isn't. Well, it's a lot of it is just
him riffing.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
So it's like him at home going, well, if you
do this, then this and if we hear I'm going
to do this one. Yeah, he's doing a lot of
like I approximated it sound this is scientific evidence.

Speaker 4 (40:56):
Like he does it enough times until it fits the
story he wants to tell, which is so problematic.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Yeah and crazy, and the idea that that amount what
was I gonna say?

Speaker 2 (41:10):
It was the amount of blood and the yeah, just
to me, it's open and shut in that part where
it's like if you're saying she fell backwards down the
stairs a couple times, it still does not.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
It just doesn't explain that amount of blood, right, it doesn't.

Speaker 4 (41:27):
Right, Well, he so Michael Peterson also had blood on
the inside crotch of his shorts, so that you know dirty.
Dwayne's argument was that could only happen if he was
standing over her beating her blood spatter, which is probably
fucking true.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yes, but but then I guess scientifically you can say,
but you could sit here and go, or if he
he flicked his shoe up, and there's some like you
can't attest for what happens to liquid in a certain scenario.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
The thing I think is super fake.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
I mean, like it sucks because that guy himself, being
a fraud, made everything afraid. Where it's still it's the
amount of blood, whatever direction, it's spattered in or whatever.
This is not a I fell down the stairs and
hit my head a couple times reasonably.

Speaker 4 (42:17):
Yeah, this is like a murder scene. But there's like
four things and we'll get to all of them. But
there's four things that make you go, this isn't this
isn't an open and shutcase. And one of them is
dirty Dwayne, and we'll get to the other ones.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well. And the daughter I never saw this in the staircase,
but the daughter Caitlin, who was Kathleen's daughter from her
first marriage, she said that when they first when Kathleen
and Michael first got married and she moved into the
house with the family, she saw him with like a
hair trigger temper and rage issues several times. Heard in

(42:55):
this episode of American Justice, they have her speaking and
she's not in as far as i'm she's not in
the staircase.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
She's not because.

Speaker 4 (43:03):
She was every his two biological sons, his two adopted daughters,
and Caitlin, who was Kathleen's daughter.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
We're all on his side.

Speaker 4 (43:17):
And then Caitlyn saw the autopsy report and changed her mind.
Then she ended up suing him too, taking him and
winning and winning for her uncle death.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
Okay, sorry, because he did it. It's like he did
it just from the get go. But okay, let's talk
about the fucking problems that pop up. And they pop up.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
It's so interesting on Staircase because they pop up during
the recording. Want to get into those Sure, the gay
porn thing.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
I love that guy. He's my favorite part of the Staircase.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
Oh my god, what did he Oh, it's his argument
on the stand.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
What did he say? Verbatim? I knew dittay. Oh, I
mean a lot of good quotes. Well, let's get to
do okay.

Speaker 4 (44:01):
So what I wrote about was that, like there were
there were two motives, and one was that Kathleen had
a one point five million dollar life insurance policy. Why
uh huh, Well, because she so high, she was very
fucking wealthy, had a good job, but so around two million.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
With all of her assets and with the time of
her death, and.

Speaker 4 (44:27):
That the Peterson's were at the time, we're facing financial issues.
They had one hundred and forty three thousand dollars in
debt at the time of Kathleen's death. Kathleen's company was
undergoing major layoffs. Kathleen was in danger of losing her
one hundred and forty five thousand dollars a year job
and her benefits, and she had deferred a lot of
her salary, so they didn't have a lot of cash,

(44:47):
which is why they were in so much debt. And
Michael hadn't had income for a lot of years, so
so and also I think secretly the Suns were in
a lot of debt as well, because there was an
email to Michael Peterson's ex wife talking about how they
were going to deal with their son's debt. And in

(45:10):
the email it's said Michael says, I cannot speak to
Kathleen about this, Oh.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Because it's like because the money was such a huge
issue because who knows why.

Speaker 4 (45:18):
Yeah, because money was an issue because she was sick
of you know, this is speculation, because she was sick
of helping them because you know, they weren't her biological
sons for whatever reason. You know, they'd gotten in illegal
trouble in the past, which is true. So so there
was some secretive stuff going on about money.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
M hm.

Speaker 4 (45:38):
So there's money, which I don't think is I think
this is a crime of passion. I don't think the money.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
No, I don't think I don't think the money, and
I don't think the gay porn, which you don't know.
In the American justice, they're like Kathleen was on his
hour on his computer two hours before her death, and
they the theory is that she stumbled upon I.

Speaker 4 (45:58):
Don't think it's the gay porn. I think it's like
he was trying to hire a sex a gay sex
worker to have sex with and she stumbled upon that information.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
You don't think it's that. No, well, no, what do
you think the motive is?

Speaker 2 (46:14):
I don't know, but I mean you could her going
on his computer doesn't mean she found anything.

Speaker 4 (46:19):
Yeah, but okay, except that she never went on that computer.
The only reason she was doing is because that the
next morning she had a conference call and so she
didn't have her home her work laptop at home with her,
so one of her colleagues sent her some information that
she needed to get off the home computer, so she
checked it before midnight, which she never did. She had

(46:41):
to ask Michael Peterson for the password to get into
the their joint email account, so she was never on
that computer. And he had printouts of a conversation he
had with a male escort about the kind of sex
that they were going to have and like when he
could come over. I read all those the emails between
the two with them it's fucking intense.

Speaker 3 (47:03):
Well, but is there truth that she read that? Well,
I mean no, but if she opened the.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
Drawer one drawer to get a pen or whatever and
found this, or you know, clicked on one email in
their email chain and saw it, I mean, it's so
easy when she's on that PC to find any evidence
of this, gave this, you know, his bisexuality, his hiring escorts,

(47:30):
his affairs with men that he had had in their relationship.
It's so easy if she had not stumbled upon that
and then died that night. I mean, it's just there's
there's too much of a link between those two things
to me.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Well, I just think if he'd been doing that secretly
for a long time, he wouldn't have them printed up
and sitting in a drawer like he's gotten away with
it for so long that he was he thought, Well,
it's not that. I mean, it's like what they were
together for eight years, or like.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
If they were ten years before got married.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
Well, so I guess my point is this.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
I don't I don't buy the idea that all of
a sudden, she's clicking things, and it's like, that's it.
And also because he that's her being enraged at him.
I think something happened where he like she was like, She's.

Speaker 4 (48:19):
Like, I'm gonna what the fuck is this. I'm going
to expose you. Get the fuck out of my house.
You're not He has no money, he hasn't had a
job in three years.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
She's like, but.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
That's like, so you're saying that the marriage was like
eroding anyway, and then this was her the like left
final straw.

Speaker 4 (48:34):
No. I think her finding emails that he is literally
planning for that week a meetup with a gay escort
two and in the email's rim job. He's a top,
Like this is how big a dick is He's he's
had sex in the past with these men.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
He's done.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
Like the emails are insane and a conversation of not
someone who is new at this right. So she finds
those emails and and realizes and comes downstairs and confronts him,
what the fuck is this?

Speaker 3 (49:07):
This is like, this is not who I married.

Speaker 4 (49:10):
I'm losing my fucking mind, you know, has the emails
in her hand, goes to walk upstairs he fucking panics.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
His whole life is about to be expressed. Sorry, So
do we know for a fact those emails were printed up? Yeah,
that's that's that's evidence that they had, not that they
the lawyers printed them, but Michael Peterson printed the email.

Speaker 4 (49:29):
According to forensic files. Yes, they were printed in his
in the drawer in his office.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Okay, well, just I guess my point is that's all
very That just seems like if he had a secret
gay life, that would be something. I just didn't see
that relationship and the and the way I guess it
was presented. I was thinking more of she did something,
said something to him that was more of like her

(49:55):
attacking him. So why wouldn't it be your fucking gay
it can I'm telling I'm just telling you that it
seems really it's convenient because it's the one night she
uses the computer, the one time, and then she finds
everything like he's not hiding it at all.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
A and then B the lawyers use that in the courtroom.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
As this huge thing of like, oh my god, he's
not who anybody And it was to me that was
one of those moments in the documentary that was so
amazing because then you watched all of those people in
Durham be like, this is disgusting, this is horrifying, Oh
my god, this is insane where it's like, actually, there's
tons of people that do it all the time. But
I think, which is why I loved that fucking sex worker,

(50:35):
because he got up there and just like, yeah, this
is what it happens a lot.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
It's not a big deal. What I don't think.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
I don't think that the people in Durham and in
the documentary Michael Peterson's talks a lot of shit about
closed mindedness here in North Carolina, blah blah blah, But
I don't think they were upset with him being bisexual
or having homosexual relationships. I think that they were pointing
out what a liar Michael Peterson was, and Michael Peterson
was saying that Kathleen knew about his infidelities with men,

(51:01):
was open to him being bisexual and experiencing that outside
of his relationship with her. But I think the argument
was he's he's a known liar, he's light about he
lied about getting the purple heart in Vietnam. He lied
that his injury he had gotten some injuries in a
car accident in Japan years before, and said that he
had gotten them in Vietnam. His ex wife and he
divorced because he was having affairs with men and women.

(51:24):
So they were showing him as a known liar and
saying that she knew about the gay relationships takes away
the motive that he would have killed her because she
found out about it that night and he flipped the
fuck out.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Well, I mean, look, it's not like I'm saying that
isn't true or I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying
to me, that seems like it pulls through the thing
because in the documentary they do in the courtroom, people
act like, holy fuck, it's on camera. It's like one
of the biggest parts of that documentary. I mean. And
so no, that's just my point of People in Durham

(51:55):
were freaked out about it. People in Durham were it
did become the way that that woman freeda Brown. The
prosecutor starts talking about him and this, and she's so
evil about it. It's like she's like the wicked witch
of the West. So that to me, I felt like
that was a card that they played to cast him
in this light. In the courtroom to make him look bad,

(52:18):
and then when you watch the documentary, are like, well,
those people are bad and that makes him good, and
so you start playing against you know what I mean,
It's like, yeah, well they're bad and he's good.

Speaker 4 (52:27):
But maybe, but I think maybe the card was he's
I think they were surprised to hear that a married, straight,
buried man was having these illicit relationships with men. I
don't think it was that he's having relationships with men.
This man's having relationship with men. I think it was definitely.
I mean, I'm not so fucking stupid that I think that,

(52:50):
you know, people don't get surprised when they find out
someone's gay, obviously, But I think part of it was
did cast I mean, it's such a it's such a
great narrative of she found out this thing about him
that he you know, even if she knew he looked
at gay porn, found out that he is, he's planning

(53:11):
on meeting up with and paying for sex from a
gay escort.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
She found out that night. That's the night she died.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
Like the fact that she was on the computer that night,
even though she's never on the computer, and that's the.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
Night but We don't know fat for a fact.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
That's the night she found out. We just know that
he had printed up emails and that he erased that
like that. The cops found out he was erasing stuff
off his computer, and then they went in and were like,
your computer's filled with gay porn and they were having
these affairs.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
But she went on.

Speaker 4 (53:40):
But she went on the computer for the first time
in a long time that night that she died. Yes,
I get that that's a crazy coincidence. It's not though,
I mean, I just don't think it's not a crazy coincidence.
It's not a coincidence. It's like that's the motive that
she found out, that he was paying for sex from
a gay guy.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
But I get it.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
My thing is, I think it's too much of a
coincidence to say all of those things happened because she
was like, oh, I got to check my email here.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
I in my mind, that's that's a thing that.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Got pulled through so that it would be like, you know, salacious,
so it would be against him. And then you know,
and then when the documentary comes and everyone in like
twenty fifteen or whenever it was, looks at that, they're like, well,
fuck those Southern bigots and then and that makes him
look good somehow. But I guess my point was, I

(54:34):
think something else happened that would like when he talks
and he is so remote and calm, and oh, he's
just so affable and so intelligent, and so can I
see that thing where it's like, but the one thing
that would turn him And I don't. I'm not saying
I know what it is. I'm just saying it's a

(54:54):
thing that makes him snap, go into a rage and
then beat her till the whole fucking stairwell is bloody.
So like, it's not it's not like hey, you and
you you did this and you did that, or her
like being shrillen up.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
And he's never been abusive before, No, he has been,
has he?

Speaker 2 (55:12):
Yes? But the well then we get into right, then
we get into the family friend the woman in Germany.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
Okay, yes, So then other weird bombshell that came out
during the it was during the staircase being filmed.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Well it's during the case, but I mean it's because
her Kathleen's uh uh is it Kathleen's sister or his
first wife's sister calls and says, you do realize, right,
Oh no, sorry, it's.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
The girl's mother's sister.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
So it's the girl's aunts that that Michael Peterson is
there his words, and the aunt calls and says, you
do realize their mother was like died at the bottom
of a staircase after he walked them home.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
He was her last person this year.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Yeah, he walked the mother and girls home after they
ate dinner at Peterson's house, and then a neighbor saw
him running out of the house later on, and she
was found at the bottom of the stairs with seven
lacerations on her head in the back of her head, exactly.

Speaker 3 (56:17):
The same fucking death twenty years before.

Speaker 8 (56:21):
That's insanity it here, let's see, uh okay, so yeah,
so so two decades before Michael Peterson found Kathleen at
the bottom of her stairs, he had been friends with
another woman named.

Speaker 4 (56:36):
Elizabeth Ratliffe, and they had all lived in Germany. Michael
Peterson was married to his first wife at the time,
had his two sons. Elizabeth apparently died after a fall
down a staircase, and Michael had been the last persons
here alive. They ruled authority's ruled rat lift steps to
be of natural clauses, concluding that a cerebral hemorrhage caused
her to fall and strike her head.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Which makes absolutely no sense, right, So they're saying something basically,
she was at the top of the stairs, went oh
my god, my head and fell down the stairs, got
seven lacerations.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
And it's the same thing.

Speaker 4 (57:11):
That one time you want you get what happened, you
get why they concluded that, you know what I mean,
it's almost sure like, yeah, okay, that could have happened, fell.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
Down the stairs right, not looking in.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
She had had headaches before, like supposedly it had headaches
before weeks before that happened.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
So she also looks so fucking identical.

Speaker 4 (57:33):
Elizabeth Bratcliffe and Kathleen look like they could be fucking sisters.

Speaker 3 (57:37):
There's the most the sane way. Yes, there's a part.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Where there's side by sides of Elizabeth in the like
seventies probably and Kathleen, and you could completely go, oh,
that's her in the seventies and that's her now. Yeah,
they look so similarly.

Speaker 4 (57:52):
It's insane, and it's this thing of like, you know,
did he kill the first woman, did he kill Elizabeth?

Speaker 3 (57:58):
Or did Elizabeth just die that way?

Speaker 4 (58:00):
And so when he killed Kathleen twenty years later, he
set up her body to look the way Elizabeth, you know,
like maybe he didn't kill Elizabeth the first one. Maybe
she actually died that way, and he and he in
this moment of like, well, I need to set the
body to look like it was an accident, kind of

(58:21):
recreated the same scene.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
But that would mean he was at the scene.

Speaker 4 (58:26):
Right right, because he prob he No, he found her body,
he came, He came. When the nanny found Elizabeth Ratcliff's body,
she went and got Michael Peterson.

Speaker 3 (58:37):
Oh so he saw it.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Yeah, okay, but I also don't believe that. I think
he killed down out well. Also because it doesn't explain
the seven lacerations. It doesn't explain it's like in the
what was that fucking uh uh Jessica Beale Show, Oh yeah,
the Sinner, remember when she stabs him the exact same way. Yeah,
It's that's what it reminds me of, where it's like

(58:59):
seven seven head lacerations, where it's like if it's a
blowpoke or if it's whatever the thing is, it's like
someone goes fuck you, walks away from him, goes upstairs
or however, it happens and he just walks up and
goes no, no, no, no no, and.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
That's his muscle memory. That's what he does to stop someone.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
And it's rageholic explosion where it's like this crazy attack
and it happens the same way, and then I mean,
who knows. This is all obviously bullshit theory, but we're right.
But but to me, he does really seem like one
of those people that's like he's going to keep it
so chill no matter what, because he does it all
the way through the It's so cral. Every teen A

(59:38):
camera in the staircase is like one of the most
infuriating things to me.

Speaker 4 (59:42):
This is why part of the reason why I didn't
I couldn't watch more than five episodes is I was
just like, I do not want to see this man
again and hear him speak like it was one of
those things where Vince had to be like, Okay, Georgia,
we need to go to bed, because I was screaming
at him about not screaming. But I was like, oh,
you know, just yelling at him because he's such a
fucking narcissistic and he does.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
He's a little bit of a like mister Magoo, where
he's like, oh right, he's making jokes.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
He's like his brother's there, and.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
They're all just kind of oh wow, that's very interesting,
and it's there's no shame. There's doesn't seem to be
any real affects. So he's not like you don't see him.
The only time he ever seems like worried or to
have real human reactions is when they're talking about how
much jail time he's.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Other than that, it's like, oh, Kathleen, she does really something.
He also doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:00:31):
He answers things in a way incorrectly, like so I
printed out this thing from the Malchi crime notes, where
so okay, so at the at the end of that,
I whisper her name bullshit. When he says I would
never have done anything to hurt her, he the way
he says that it's an unreally so she's this chick Ursula.

(01:00:55):
Franco says it's an unreliable denial, saying I would have
never done anything to hurt her, And then you can
add in unless.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
Blah blah blah, unless on the stairs I've done something wrong.
I would have never done anything to hurt her. To
be in with right.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
And then he also says hurt instead of kill to
minimize and distance himself from what happened, to deal with
the negative emotions, and she says it's a common strategy
used by guilty people to deal with feelings of guilt.
And then he says, I am innocent of these charges.
That doesn't mean he didn't kill her. He's innocent of
the charges he's being brought up on, right, So it's.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Another not reliable denial.

Speaker 4 (01:01:36):
To affirm to be innocent is different from saying I
didn't kill which is expected. When people say they're innocent,
they're just denying the conclusion that they are guilty. And
just when they say and when they say I didn't
do it, they are denying the action. So he's saying
he's guilt, he's not guilty of the charges, leaving out
what the charges are, again, not telling you I'm innocent

(01:01:58):
of killing my wife.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
And it's that it's the super egomaniacal thing of I
am innocent. This is about me, and I'm being persecuted,
and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
So sad for me.

Speaker 4 (01:02:09):
I didn't kill my wife. I would never I would
never hurt Kathleen. Yes, nothing like that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
I will I would never hurt Kathleen conceptually, right, I
mean not really.

Speaker 4 (01:02:21):
Yeah, but yeah, it's so fucked up. Oh, and then
he says in the Ohen else says, I'm truly innocent
of these charges. Of course, when you say truly, it's like,
why are you making a why are you making a
like a qualifier blah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Blah blah as opposed to regular innocence. Right, truly.

Speaker 4 (01:02:38):
But then another quote he says is when I think
of Kathleen, and he says, it's in the staircase. When
I think of Kathleen, I remember, unfortunately. What I remember,
unfortunately is her dying in my arms. That's true, she
died in my arms. Why do you have to say
that killing He's like goosing the sympathy.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:55):
And it's also like, we think she died hours before that.
So him saying it's true, died in my arms because
the first time he called nine one when he said
she was still alive, in the second time he said
she wasn't. But based on the neurons, which you need
to talk about, the red blood neurons in her brain,
she died hours before. Then he says, uh. Then he says,
he says something about how the last time that was.

(01:03:18):
He says, when she was walking to go back into
the house after they had been sitting outside, that that
was the last time he saw her alive. And then
he goes, oh, except for when I found her, Like
he has to be like, oh, fuck, I'm My story
is that I found her alive at the bottom of
the stairs.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Yeah, which she didn't. He forgot, right, he forgot that
was the story, right. Well, the one thing I was
going to say is they talk about.

Speaker 3 (01:03:41):
It really bugs me, Like I when I was watching.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
The documentary the prosecutorial team which he hired before there were.

Speaker 4 (01:03:52):
Charges against him and one another narcissistic creep.

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Yes that lawyer. Yeah, what's his name? Uh? I remember
Rudolph but sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
But basically he tries to say, there is no way
that somebody could beat somebody else with a blowpoke in
that staircase, like or with any instrument that that would
have given her those seven deep lacerations.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
In the back of her head at the bottom of
that staircase.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
There's not enough room that that you couldn't pull that
thing up over your head over and over and beat
someone with that, which is a bullshit because you don't
know it's not the blowpoke itself, so that it's like
predicating everything on this one concept, which is like, we
don't know if that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:36):
I don't know if it's a blowbok, but that's the
murder weapon, is what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Yeah, And also or could he could just be holding
it right up to the hills and not it's not
like he's got it at the very end.

Speaker 4 (01:04:48):
Or I read in another thing that maybe he just
hit her head against the stairs. Sure, and that's that's
and that would take a small hit to open the
scalp up and not.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
Cause brain or skull fractures.

Speaker 4 (01:05:01):
Which is one of the points that people made is
if he had beaten her, there'd be skull fractures, and
there wasn't. So if it was an up close hit,
there wouldn't be skull fractures. Maybe because she died by
bleeding out, she didn't die from a skull fracture.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Right, which normally I think most doctors would say if
you fell down the stairs, hit your head a bunch
of times, you still wouldn't bleed out right. You wouldn't
bleed out that quickly, and you have a concussion But
the other thing is that then later on they try
they attempt to get a retrial because the neighbor finds
a tire iron, and then they say they they withheld

(01:05:36):
this evidence, that the prosecution withheld this evidence. And so
the defense was like, we need a new trial because
they withheld the possibility there could be a prowler that
had a tire iron. So all of a sudden, the
same people are arguing the exact same, the opposite of
what they were saying, which is like, oh, so a
prowler could beat her with a tire iron, but he
couldn't beat her with a blowpope, Right, that makes sense?

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
It doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:05:57):
It's so crazy also that the blow pope was missing,
and later in the in the documentary one that the
other son finds the blowpoke in the garage, which is weird.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Well, and the police, who we all know, like you know,
it's we're very biased in this, but the police in
the American justice or like we went all over that garage,
the blowpoke was not in the garage.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
And didn't they find the blowpoke without the end the tip? Yeah,
I mean, and they all they did was they didn't
find it, leave it where it was called the cops.
Everybody go take pictures. They presented it in court to
say we found this.

Speaker 4 (01:06:34):
Yeah, and it was on video right like while they
were recording the documentary.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Yeah, So then we're like, here it is, we found it.
Here it is everybody, and then they're just like, well, yeah,
you could have any you could put that there. And
then the camera was recording, right, Oh my god, this
is so perfect. Yeah, like that doesn't mean anything, but
they were introducing they were doing that tricky shit of
introducing ideas that are like ooh.

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:01):
Also, so there's all these injuries to her head and neck,
contusions all over her arms, in the back of her arms,
and she has zero injuries to her knees and legs,
which you think, falling down the stairs you'd absolutely hit
your fucking leg. So then the other thing, God, can
we talk about doctor Henry Lee.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Oh him spitting that ketchup. Oh my god, it's so
And also, you know they hired him really early. They
hired him, they made sure he was available. Like basically,
these lawyers knew this thing was going to blow up.
He was like semi famous authors, so they knew.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
They just they got there all their heavy hitters, like
they knew this could be a thing. Yeah, and they could.
They couldn't make it a big thing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
That they're going to get if he's the guy that
got up you know that was it a football player
basically exonerated for murder. Then he then they also were like, well,
we'll get doctor Henry Lee, he's from an OJ trial,
and we'll get these people and like just line everybody up.
Swat looks like, here's here's what it looks like, a
team of people who get people out.

Speaker 4 (01:08:04):
They wouldn't pay this amount of money if they didn't
think he was you know what I mean? Yeah, Okay,
so here, okay, so rare red neurons. Okay, Basically there
were these neurons in Kathleen's brain that were consistent with, uh,
the brain having a long period like a couple hours

(01:08:26):
lack of oxygen before dying. So essentially it shows that
these injuries to her head happened hours before he called
nine one one and she died. And to me, that's
uh yeah, no, this means she was unconscious a while
before she actually died, right, So that to me, that's
all you that's all you really need.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Like because it's even longer than his claim forty five
minutes of like I was out drinks back by cool.

Speaker 4 (01:08:50):
And when I found her and he's on nine one one,
he's like, she's alive. So that would have been forty
five minutes. Yeah, and that's not consistent with you can't
neurons don't lie, right, That's that's that's deep science.

Speaker 3 (01:09:03):
Yeah. Also, the thyroid cartilage that was that was damaged.
I can't remember neck.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Yeah, how they described that was it like, uh, you
can't break cartilage, right, So it's like it was, but
it was hemorrhaging. And so basically that means when your
thyroid cartilage is damaged, that's strangulation.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
Because a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Oh okay, so you can fracture it. So but it's
it's pressure on the neck. It's indicative of being strangled.
But it also is hemorrhaged. So she was being strangled.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):
She was alive.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
This isn't a thing where she fell down the stairs
broke her neck, and that's why that was damaged. She
she was strangled while alive.

Speaker 4 (01:09:51):
Yeah, almost like someone was holding her down, Yeah, and
also had their foot on the back. Of her leg
to keep her in place, and was straddling her at
the same time, and that's how he got blood spatters
on the inside of his shorts.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
Yep, and just hit her on the back of the
head as she was sitting on the stairs, flipped her
over so that she looked like she had to down.

Speaker 4 (01:10:13):
Tried to clean up a little bit. She came back,
she came back to consciousness, consciousness, conscious, and he had
to hit her again, covered up those blood spatters, called.

Speaker 3 (01:10:26):
Nine woman, I mean or a prowler came in and
hit her with an owl that they add those together
if we're gonna do this the owl theory.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
The idea of the owl theory is from a neighbor,
like a nosy neighbor who has nothing to do with
the case, but he's like, I know what this is
and it can't be him, and this is really what
it is. When you for me, people believe it, people
believe we're going to get to that, and I get
the thing where people. I was looking up owl injuries
today because I was like, what do those look like
compared to what these both of these cases of both.

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):
Of these women with seven lacerations on the back of
their head. What do they look like?

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
Not the same because owl talons look like puncture wounds, right,
and these and the lacerations are long drag marquee like
cut deep cut.

Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
They'll do the impatis what do they put it when
they put the talent over the wound to show you
what it looks like. But actually, owl talons, it's not
three claws in the front and one in the back.

Speaker 3 (01:11:25):
It's they have three and it's you know, listen, yes.

Speaker 4 (01:11:28):
I'm not a fucking it's mostly just those three that
go like that, right, they're kind of like they take
up all that space and the one in the back
stuff here and fun and cool and I like reading
about it, but it's not true.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
I don't think it's true because was there are you
then saying you would have to then say that that
what's the woman in Germany's name.

Speaker 4 (01:11:49):
Liz Elizabeth Yeah Ratcliffe Ratcliffe, Ratliff, Ratliffe, that she was
also attacked by now, like it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:11:58):
Because it's the exact same death. Yeah, he's the common denominator, Like.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
Maybe the fucking owl found the gay porn?

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
Could you imagine that owls? Like I never use this computer? Yeah,
but tonight, that's how fucking ridiculous it is. I mean,
look also with that theory, he it was long and
ago enough that he could have been keeping all of
his porn in a little file that said porn underneath it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:23):
And then she was like, you know what, I'm that's true.
What kind of women does he like? You know, maybe
he was. Maybe she was fine with him being into
gay porn. Like that's my thing about it.

Speaker 4 (01:12:33):
It's like maybe he she did know he was bisexual
and was okay with it, you know, like it's fine,
nothing's wrong with that. But I think when you get
over into fucking paying for sex territory.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
Yes, having affairs is a different thing.

Speaker 4 (01:12:47):
Having an affair with a male escort in your home
while you're at work. Yeah, you know that's And Kathleen
had divorced her fucking first husband because he was having
an affair, so I did not okay or had you know,
had cheated on her. So she's not okay with affairs
based on the fact on her history. Fuck no, well,

(01:13:09):
no one's okay with a fair mean affairs. I mean, like,
you know, open marriages, and he did right In one
of the emails to this dude, he was trying to hire.
I'm a married man to a wonderful woman and she
knows or you know, something like that. So it's like
it's just such a weird mindset.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
It's like he does whatever he wants and rationalizes it probably.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
You know what would freak me out even more is
that the way that Kathleen and Michael met was because
when they when after Michael got divorced from his first
wife and I think her name is Patty, and they
moved out, she took the sons and Michael stayed with
the two girls. The two girls started playing with Caitlin

(01:13:56):
in the neighborhood, and that's how Kathleen and Michael met
first places because all the girls were friend Yeah. And
I don't know why that freaks me out so much,
but it's like it's not like they they came together
in this weird way that well.

Speaker 4 (01:14:12):
So there's like family photos of them that make me uncomfortable, like,
but they're all standing together as like this Brady Bunch family. Yes,
I don't know how old were the adopted girls when
Michael and Kathleen got married.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
They were older, yeah, because they had they I think
those girls met each other when they were like preteens maybe,
and then that they were together for.

Speaker 3 (01:14:37):
Like eight years.

Speaker 4 (01:14:38):
So the fact that they called Kathleen mom makes me
a little uncomfortable. I just the whole Michael just seemed
like a cult leader to me. And these these two
adopted girls who lost first they lost their biological father,
then their mother died in these insane circumstances, they go
to and live with this man family friend and.

Speaker 3 (01:14:59):
His they divorce. The two girls are with this guy, they.

Speaker 4 (01:15:05):
Find this great woman and they're like, oh, like it's
almost this Like, did Michael tell the adopted daughters to
call Kathleen mom in a manipulative way because it would
make her want to stick around?

Speaker 3 (01:15:17):
You know what I mean? Or is it just that
they wanted normalcy?

Speaker 4 (01:15:20):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:15:20):
And they just were like, Okay, great, these are landed.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
We're doing this like we're building our own family and
we're gonna make this work.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
Well, the son's called her mom too, didn't they? Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:15:31):
But no they couldn't have they had their own mom,
like a living mom. They did, But that whole dynamic,
there's something off about it to me.

Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
Well, because in this I keep talking about like it's
my pride and joy in This American Justice. There is
a part where they are all and I wonder if
the producers of that show manipulated them. But they're all
sitting around looking at like Christmas pictures, and one of
the daughters says, oh, yeah, says she loved her stairs.
She always had to put her Christmas decorations. And basically

(01:16:04):
she's talking about the front like the main staircase.

Speaker 4 (01:16:07):
Which there's a photo of them together in her wedding
dress on the stairs. Yeah, so creepy and and but
basically it's just her.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
It's them talking about it, like oh, she loved her stairs,
and like wave and it's and but there she goes,
it's so cute. And it's just like them all trying
to act like we have the best, we have the
most perfect life. We had the most perfect life.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
They were so in love.

Speaker 4 (01:16:28):
It's almost like, I guess what I guess In the staircase,
the daughters, the adopted daughters, feel like they're being paraded
to to show to give Michael Peters and sympathy that
he has a family who supports him. The way they're
shown emotionally so much and talked about as and they

(01:16:49):
speak on camera, so like you know emotionally that their
dad could never do this. It almost seems like they're
being used by him and his side in a way
to show to have empathy because he has fucking none.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
Well, I mean they it seems like it's absolutely their choice.
So it's what they want to do. And I feel
like they understand the importance of if someone is accused
of this terrible crime, especially if they're innocent, which they.

Speaker 4 (01:17:15):
Believe he is or at least, but there's no room
for them to even grapple with that idea otherwise.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
But I don't think you could in that scenario because
it would be like this is like now it's us
against them, right, there's no room for great.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
I need for my dad what happened. I need my
dad to not have done this.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
There's could you imagine, because then if he did that,
then he also it opens the door to their own mother.

Speaker 4 (01:17:42):
Well, they fucking end up okaying their own mother, their
biological mother, Elizabeth at Ratliffe, being fucking exhumed.

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
Yes, because they and they think it's going to prove
him innocent.

Speaker 4 (01:17:52):
Right and instead of instead her cause of death gets
changed to homicide.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
Yes, because they see those fucking lacerations and it's all
mirror image.

Speaker 4 (01:18:01):
But instead everyone is against Michael Peterson, and that's the
that's there, that's his narrative. Is instead they're against him, right,
and they're making this stuff up, which maybe it's true
because this fucking blood analyst was making shit up.

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
I mean, that's the Nothing is simple, nothing is simple,
and nothing is ever all one way.

Speaker 3 (01:18:25):
Of these are the good guys and these are the bad.

Speaker 4 (01:18:27):
Totally, Ever, I have room for the fact that I
could be totally fucking wrong about all of this and
he might be innocent.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
I am not.

Speaker 4 (01:18:33):
I will never be like, not never, but there's room
for that, Yes, there is. This is just how this
seems based on the information that I've been able to
find and the vibe, because.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
It's that vibe that's the thing that drives me the craziest.
Is I just want to go you don't think you're
convincing the right of all people because I don't buy
your dumb pipe.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
Brows in that pipe are not fooling me.

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):
And also it's just the I'm like, I'm a conness
sort of good acting and this is not good acting
at all.

Speaker 4 (01:19:04):
And why are you acting to begin with yes, why bad?
It's like you can still tell acting whether it's good
or bad.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
Why are you bothering the thing that we both named,
the thing that I played a recording of is it's
terrible acting. It is inappropriate, it's the There is absolutely
nothing genuine about it whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (01:19:24):
It is is rehearsed. It's like bad community theater.

Speaker 4 (01:19:27):
It's the first time of him speaking to the media too,
and he thinks that's what's going to make them get
on his side because he doesn't understand basic human emotions
such as if you're crying and you are freaking out
about what's going on, people are on your side because
they're like, that's a real emotion.

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
Right, That's how he's really And now I can hear
the people that would argue of like nobody grieves the same, right,
he was in a position that nobody could anticipate or imagine.

Speaker 3 (01:19:58):
It's corny ass fuck the statement exactly right, he's not.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
This isn't like they trapped him on the street and
forced him to give a statement. This was him breaking
his silence to the press and giving an official.

Speaker 3 (01:20:11):
Statement about these are the words he thought would work.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
Yes you, Yes, it's so crazy, and now I told
you that the way I realized he was he was guilty.

Speaker 3 (01:20:24):
Tell me I had been watching it was the last
season of Breaking Bad. I'm pretty sure it was last.

Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
Season, and it was right the end where everything's going
crazy and Walt keeps having to leave, and then he
comes back to the family and you know, his wife's like,
what the fuck? And he was always lying, And there
was a part where he is trying to you know,
the thing where he would always make breakfast, So he
was trying to make breakfast and look, I'm making breakfast
pancakes every and he is as I think either his

(01:20:55):
son or his wife are trying to talk to him,
and he's opening these doors and kind of going what no, yes,
of course, and like keeps fucking with the cupboards and
doing stuff while answering questions and like trying to pretend
to think, but then doing stuff with the cupboards. There
is an almost exact scene in the Staircase where Michael
Peterson is in the kitchen and they're like asking in

(01:21:16):
some really kind of crucial, you know things, and he
is doing Walt exactly from Breaking Bad, where it's like
it was such a mirror thing.

Speaker 3 (01:21:27):
Where I was like, whoa, he's totally lying. It was
Jonathan's exact same thing.

Speaker 4 (01:21:32):
Kranston watched that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:33):
I wonder, Brian Kranston, that's what I meant. Brian Cranston
watched that. Jonathan Overholt watched it.

Speaker 4 (01:21:40):
Listen, there's a Jonathan Cranston out there. I bet you anything.

Speaker 3 (01:21:43):
You went to high school with him, you loved him.
Now you want to know. I watched Breaking Back. I
bought math from him. That's fucking crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:21:51):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:21:52):
I just got this weird chill where I was like, oh,
Brian Cranston made that acting choice, because that's what it
looks like when you.

Speaker 4 (01:21:58):
Lie and when you're trying to to make it seem
casual and to give yourself time to answer yea, because
you look like you're focused on something else yep, and
you're not.

Speaker 3 (01:22:09):
I'm so distracted by pancakes. I'm in the middle of us.
What's that? Yes, it's like the weirdest and for me,
I was like, that's it. It's over.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
If I was on the jury, I'd be like, full on,
full on death penalty. Well, at the end of my
American Justice, your favorite my favorite American does TV show
ever Thank you, Bo Curtis for your service to us
as a true crime listener watchers.

Speaker 3 (01:22:40):
You don't know how much you may do us, does he?
Bill Curtis did think he does?

Speaker 4 (01:22:46):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:22:47):
Now do he know?

Speaker 4 (01:22:48):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:22:49):
I don't know. I don't think he could possibly understand
how much we love him. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
As a remember, in the very beginning, the very first
live show we did was the show in Chicago that
was for the Chicago Podcast Festival.

Speaker 3 (01:23:03):
They knew Bill Curtis.

Speaker 2 (01:23:05):
Somebody said that they might be able to get us
a Bill Curtis walk on, and we were like, oh
my god.

Speaker 3 (01:23:11):
It was like we were so excited for so long.
But Bill Curtis, our lord and savior. He was busy.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
Anyhow, at the end of This American Justice, my television
show that I produced, there's a jailhouse interview with Michael Peterson,
and in it he says, I'm in here, in here, I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:23:29):
As free as I would be out there.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
And to me, that's that thing of like the truly
psychotic where he's basically saying, you haven't gotten me, Like
you can do anything you want, but you haven't gotten me.

Speaker 3 (01:23:44):
It's also like this the system is so messed up.

Speaker 4 (01:23:46):
Outside of here, like the government in your life and stuff,
it's the same as in here. And really instead of
being like I'm in here because I killed my wife, right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
Or I'm in here because of a huge miscarriage of justice,
please do something like, he's okay with it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:01):
I'm innocent. I'm innocent. I didn't kill her. None of
that's happening.

Speaker 2 (01:24:05):
He's like, look what your life He basically is trying
to say some bullshit theory of like you know, whether
your life is having or hell, it's all in your mind,
and he's like at peace with it. He's yes, Basically,
he goes, I'm not saying I like jail obviously, but like,
but it's this thing where to me, it's what it

(01:24:26):
is about Michael Peterson, which is to me, what's fascinating
about killers and psychopaths and all those.

Speaker 3 (01:24:32):
People where they have they have to do it, they
have to win. They can't not say that thing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:39):
So even if it's going to make them look even guiltier,
that's his emma that he has to tell you. He
didn't get me. Yes, I'm wearing this jail outfit. Yes
I'm in here, but but no I'm actually free.

Speaker 4 (01:24:52):
Right, So you know, or almost this like he thinks
of himself as this beautiful miss miscarriage of justice.

Speaker 3 (01:24:58):
Yeah, and this like he's a martyr. He's a martyr
yeah yeah yeah. And it's like, dude, this isn't your
wife is dead? Right, there's no talk of her.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
Yeah I know, I know, but that American Justice was
made in like two thousand and four or five. Huh,
so they had no idea that this story continues for
quite some time after.

Speaker 4 (01:25:24):
Well, that's what's funny about this, this a novel idea
episode of forensic Violence, which you can watch on YouTube,
is that I think that they get so. Of course
it's before we find out all of these issues around it,
and our friend Dirty Dwayne is in it, like being
interviewed as the guy who solved the case, and so

(01:25:45):
that's problematic. But I think, really, if you ignore that,
I think that that episode gets it correct. The whole
thing is correct. It's just the shit that happens afterwards
is problematic. So it's so funny that this like dated
Friends files without the uh you know, fucking addendums and shit.

Speaker 3 (01:26:05):
Yeah, I think it's correct.

Speaker 4 (01:26:07):
I do too, I mean, but it doesn't really well
to show you exactly why he's guilty, and then so
much shit comes out later.

Speaker 3 (01:26:14):
That whole thing was like what is real? Nothing?

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
I mean, blood spatter evidence experts are fraudulent to.

Speaker 3 (01:26:26):
The core where it's not even a real thing.

Speaker 4 (01:26:28):
Yeah, you can't even you can't even rely on them.
Who can you rely on?

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
Whoever the other person is? That's made up there specialty
of like no, no, no, I did this in my basement.
Don't worry. I tested out on myself. We had a
great time. Here's the video.

Speaker 3 (01:26:42):
We laughed, we loved.

Speaker 4 (01:26:44):
Well. Shit, that's fucking Michael. The Murder of Kathleen Peterson
by Michael Peterson.

Speaker 2 (01:26:51):
And in Steven's timeline that I was reading off of,
he said that those French documentarians have another as yet
to be released of December twenty seventeen, but they have
a third.

Speaker 5 (01:27:03):
Yeah, they're working on a third documentary because he was
released this year.

Speaker 3 (01:27:08):
Yeah he got so.

Speaker 4 (01:27:09):
He did an Alfred plea, which we know from the
West Memphis three basically says that you know that the
state has enough to convict you, but so you're you're
agreeing that they haven't enough to convict you, but you
didn't You're still saying you're not guilty.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
Yeah, you're not pleading guilty. Right, Yeah, so he's out now. Yeah,
he had a time served situation, right, which we don't
need to get into. Oh right ye no, no, no, no,
I just mean like he served eighty.

Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
Six month and so now he and it's concurrent with them.

Speaker 2 (01:27:45):
Yeah, all of the way he gets out and gets
bonds and in between shit and all that him going
in and out of jails. Like imagine if that was
a black man, Oh, you would have never seen that
person again.

Speaker 3 (01:27:58):
Yeah, that the way this keep's.

Speaker 2 (01:28:00):
Just getting entertained because this does happen to other people
when it's like oh yeah, this all of this has
to get thrown out and they don't technately throw up
a bond and like hey let's get this person out.

Speaker 4 (01:28:12):
Of Hey this blood spatter. And Ellis has lied in
thirty four cases. I bet he's lieding these other ones
as well. Now it doesn't turn around like that, It
doesn't at all.

Speaker 1 (01:28:21):
No.

Speaker 4 (01:28:22):
I wonder what Christmas is like with fucking Michael Peterson.
What do you think this Christmas is going to be
like for everyone?

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):
Well, so with the last so the second addendum French
documentary The staircase two Electric Bogaloo.

Speaker 3 (01:28:38):
I have to say it every time in that one
one of the daughters, I kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:28:44):
Like that we're not naming their names because I feel
like they are they let them live their lives, and
also just they're they're really kind of the subject of
this documentary.

Speaker 3 (01:28:54):
It's like, it's so much.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
Pain for them.

Speaker 3 (01:28:57):
It's been so horrible for them.

Speaker 2 (01:29:00):
Oh the whole way. I almost want to go like,
if you need to fight and believe it, please do that.

Speaker 3 (01:29:04):
Yeah, because yes, because it just sucks that their other
sister is on the other side. You know that they're
fighting the part too.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
One of the sisters no longer is speaking out for
Michael Peterson.

Speaker 4 (01:29:19):
Okay, well, the daughter, Caitlin, Kathleen's actual biological daughter, said
that when she saw the autopsy, there's like this beautiful
quote by her that's somewhere here says the only thing
I have to say is that about the trial and

(01:29:40):
all the subsequent fallout is that if there was any
closure to possibly come from all of this, it came
after sitting through the entire trial and listening day after
day to all the evidence on both sides, and after
the closing arguments. When all was said and done, I
felt confident that I knew what happened. I knew what
happened to my mom. Well, there's no true closure that
can ever come from an event like for a losses deep.

(01:30:01):
I was ready to walk away and start moving forward
with my life. And that's Caitlin Note thinking that Michael
Peterson killed her.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
Mother, right, Yeah, so sad and not feeling caught up that. Yeah,
her stepfather was also being persecuted or she just was
kind of like, I can't walk with this.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):
Yeah, it's just awful.

Speaker 4 (01:30:25):
It is.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
It's intense.

Speaker 4 (01:30:27):
I'm glad we did it together. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:30:29):
Should we say we're happy about this week?

Speaker 2 (01:30:32):
Go for it?

Speaker 4 (01:30:33):
Should we Should it be like something boring or should
it be like thanks everyone?

Speaker 3 (01:30:40):
Definitely boring? Tried to do in a very flat, okay voice.

Speaker 4 (01:30:44):
Well, I was just thinking about how different both of
our lives were before we started this podcast, or when
we started this podcast, and when we kind of came
together at the Halloween party and I lied about having
watched The Staircase because it sounded right, and just how
grateful I am from this pod that, by this podcast
and the listeners and the community and I mean, I

(01:31:06):
was kind of in a rough we think we were
both kind of in different reasons and rough points of
our lives and going through some of our own shit,
and this podcast has changed that completely and made my
life into this beautiful fucking thing that I'm so happy
for and grateful for. And you know, if all you
ever do is a hundred episodes, this is then one

(01:31:28):
of the highlights of my life for real, like one
it feels like a dream.

Speaker 3 (01:31:35):
It's so true. It's been insane. I love you very much.
I love you too, Karen, And I love that you
thought to do this and made me come to your
house to do it. I love what you said.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):
Okay, but it was one of those things where I
was just like, in starting to do it, it was
just like, oh, yeah, this is like, even if it's
just for us, it's so much fun.

Speaker 4 (01:31:58):
That conversation we just had about the staircase, even when
we were arguing about certain things, was so much fun.

Speaker 3 (01:32:03):
That's all I want to do. I know, it's the best.
It's so much fun.

Speaker 2 (01:32:06):
But also because and sometimes it's been I will say this,
I'm I totally agree and every I mean, that's part
of part of the fun for me has been this
experience of basically kind of standing in the center of
an explosion with you and getting through it with you
and like truly growing with you.

Speaker 3 (01:32:27):
I feel, oh my god, completely.

Speaker 2 (01:32:29):
But there have been times where, you know, when we
started out, we said whatever the fuck we wanted because
we were just in your house. And then you know,
of course, then we went through like a teenage phase
where we got super self conscious because people started going,
you're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:32:43):
This word wrong, and you're doing that wrong, and you
have the wrong thoughts and you have the wrong idea.
We're like, you have to do this right.

Speaker 2 (01:32:49):
Yes, And then we got real worried about what if
we lose people or what if we you know, and
there's just all it's like the natural growth process. And now,
so that conversation we just had felt so much more
like one of the first episodes, because of course, in
my mind, I'm going, we can't say that. That's libel,
that's whatever we're talking. We're putting words in someone's mouth.

(01:33:10):
But overall, that's the point of this podcast. And I
said this at the Kansas City show. I believe was
we're not trying to be forty eight hours We're sitting
on the couch watching forty eight.

Speaker 3 (01:33:23):
Hours, talking about forty to each other. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:26):
And we've never wanted to be broad professional broadcasters or
newscasters or anything.

Speaker 3 (01:33:33):
We just want to talk about the thing that freaks
us out so much, right and fascinates us so much.

Speaker 4 (01:33:38):
And we're sitting in this room, this loft pod loft,
surrounded by aren't made by these incredible people who we
have somehow fucking.

Speaker 3 (01:33:49):
Touched in a way. And well, because we have so
much in common with Right.

Speaker 4 (01:33:53):
And I'm just honored. I'm honored, and I'm amazed. And
thank you Steven too for being here. Yeah, It's just
I feel really lucky.

Speaker 3 (01:34:02):
It's weird, weird, two of the luckiest people. I can't
believe it for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:34:07):
And uh, and we're filled with ice cream cake, Oh
my god, I mean and uh for all you guys
that have been you know, one of my favorite favorite
things is it's sometimes when we meet people at shows
and they say I've been listening since the beginning, and
then I'll go, oh, you have since the first one,
and they'll go, oh, well, no, I mean like I
came out in episode five and on that on the

(01:34:29):
last time we were out, someone said that, and I
go from the beginning and she goes, day one.

Speaker 3 (01:34:34):
I found you, remember that, Gid. I told us the story.
She said, sorry, I don't remember your name, but she
said I opened it. I was in a bad mood.

Speaker 2 (01:34:40):
I opened up my you know iTunes podcast, saw the
thing and was like, that seems interesting and clicked on it.

Speaker 3 (01:34:47):
Yeah, and she was like, at first I hated your voices.
That's the other thing, because she said, at first I
thought you were.

Speaker 4 (01:34:53):
Both annoying or something. And then I kept listening and
I loved it, and I couldn't stop listening. Yeah, it
is cool. And we read all of the notes and
all of the messages on Twitter and all. I mean,
it's just it doesn't it doesn't make any sense. My
mind is fucking blown. We're both You guys have changed
our lives. Thank you so fucking much.

Speaker 3 (01:35:11):
We love it. We love it, We love you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
One hundred episodes so fun. Thank you for being here
with us. Yeah, we're very grateful. Yeah, and mostly we
want you to stay sex and we also want you
to don't get murdered. Bye bye, Elvis.

Speaker 3 (01:35:25):
One cookie