386 - FOMO is Ancient

This week, Karen and Georgia cover the "Paper Bag Killer" and the Dancing Plague of 1518.

For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
He lo, and we'll go to my favorite murder.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
That's Georgia Hartstark, that's Karen Kilgariff. I think we should
try to draw that out for like sixteen notes if
we can, like just keep going like opera style.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
I was impressed because I feel like that's the first
time we actually said it at the same time. That
was why I was like, I was like, oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
And we did it.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
We did it kind of fast. Sometimes you do the
conductor the conductor hands.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
A couple of times I do.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
It's only taken us seven and a half years to
get in sync on the intro.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
I think that's we've put in minimum seventy thousand hours,
which is the recommendation for podcasting.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Really practice, guys. It's important. It's important stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
I can't just wing it. You got to go to college,
get all those college credits for podcasting.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah, get those and then drop out.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
But you still got your loan and that's never going
to be forgiven, so yeah, just.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Keep that forever. Too bad.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
It wasn't a PPP loan. Friends of things that they
forgive so quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Oh truly, truly, you were about to tell me about astrology,
something about it.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, you know, over on TikTok, I follow a lot
of and or seem to get in my algorithm a
lot of astrology talk because I do enjoy it. And
right now, and here's the thing, you should go and
listen to people who know what they're talking about. All
I was saying, and the whole message is this is
a big changing time. So this stuff and it just

(01:50):
is weird and interesting to me when the stuff that's
happening around us, like basically the full meltdown of structures
and systems that we're used to is somehow reflected in
like they say, when the astrology people are able to
go like the same thing happened fifty nine years ago
when this happened, I almost said the French Revolution, but

(02:12):
I know for a fact that didn't happen fifty nine
years ago. But is that kind of vibe where it's
like this time that starts to day oh, which is
the day we're recording, not the day you're listening. Probably yeah,
kicks off.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
I want to say new moon. Probably wrong.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
I know the word nodes is involved, but it's essentially
just if you hang on, you'll be dragged.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
So let go, let go, let go, I like that idea.
If you hang on, you'll be dragged. Yeah. So we're
entering a chaotic time and the best thing to do
is acknowledge it and not try to fight against it.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Basically, yeah, you can't fight it. Don't fight it, It'll
all be fine, and just work on yourself. That seems
to be the message of everybody is you have basically
between now and this the end of day December to
manifest the life you want. So just start focusing on
yourself and the life you want, because that's the one

(03:09):
thing you can control.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Okay, all right, that it feels like a long time.
It's July, right, and then.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well yeah, from July to December. Also, though, what I
just said can be applied to any point of time
in the past or into the future, because it's always
kind of the truth.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, but it's nice to hear someone say it, you know,
because then you're like, other than yourself say it. It's like, right,
nice someone else to do it, because otherwise I won't
do it, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Yes, for sure, it's also nice to think about.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
You know. The people that like poo pooh astrology or
whatever don't seem to understand that it. Really there's a
lot to be found in kind of handed down wisdom
of the ages, where they basically say, hey, we've been
tracking this for several thousand years, and this is a
thing that comes.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Up around the thing.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
So you don't have to believe it and you don't
have to be an expert in it to kind of
look at it and go, oh, okay, well maybe I'll
consider that since everything is kind of random and chaos anyway.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Moon phases are real. Me being a Gemini and that
affecting me might not be, but there are moon phases
of the moon, and you can't deny that.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Try well, right, and you shouldn't deny it because those
phases of the moon affect the tides, which is seventy
percent of this planet and some very large percent of
your body as water. Right, So there's things being affected
whether you whether you want that to be happening or not.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Right, I only have one one thing I want to
like shout out. The most wholesome documentary I've ever watched
is the Wham documentary.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
Oh yeah, oh my god, did you watch it?

Speaker 2 (04:54):
I haven't, but Chris Fairbanks was talking about it over
on Do you need a Ride?

Speaker 3 (04:58):
And he and we.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Had a full conversation, so I was like, wait what
and yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah, and people love it.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
It's so like that, it's so pure and sweet and
then's just these two boys who've known each other since
they were kids like making it big and you know,
just it's just really sweet and lovely. And it gave
me a whole new respect for George Michael because he's
like nineteen writing and producing these hit fucking songs. Yeah,

(05:26):
having no experience whatsoever. And yeah, it's just it's a
really sweet documentary.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Also, you know, as George Michael's career went on, when
he likes say, played at the Queen, that huge Queen
concert and basically did Freddie Mercury's part where you were
suddenly like, oh, this guy is a gigantic vocal like legend.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
And in that moment when they show it on the documentary,
I just turned to Vince and I go like, he
shouldn't be able to sing like this. He has no training.
It's not like, you know, he had no training. I
don't think he had any training they did. It was
like very minimal and he suddenly has this voice and
it's like, Okay, this is definitely like bigger than bigger
than you. Yeah, if I were religious, which I'm very

(06:10):
much not, it's like a gift from God, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, and it will and or you can think of
it as like fate where some people are born and
they're faded to do certain things and they don't need
like the normal routines to get there. And also that's
that's the thing that I think is part of the
reason we are where we are today. The arts are
not respected we live in i should say in America

(06:35):
because capitalism has taken over to the degree where it's
like cut the fat of anything that you know, the
big boys decide isn't important to them, right, But the arts,
all everything that that includes, including outsider artists some people
who make their own way, are like one of the
most important things to humanity. So it's it's just I

(06:58):
think that's a good thing to keep in mind while
they're trying to say that actors and writers aren't important
in show business, where it's like, good luck with show
business after you get rid of actors and writers.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
I mean, yeah, it's like the most necessary, one of
the most necessary parts of it. You would argue, not
the CEO of the fucking company.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
It's the fucking point of it. It's the only reason
all those CEOs have jobs is because of the talented
people that they're trying to basically put into poverty for
their so that they can have a fourth yacht.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Like, fuck those guys for real.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
I mean, billionaires should not be a thing, especially multiple
ones of them. There's so many.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Now, they're just they've gone unchecked.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
They have. Meanwhile, rent is it's unlivable. What average people
are living off of and being paid is not equal
to what inflation has done to the economy. It's not
a livable fucking world anymore. Right, It's just it's really wild.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, and luckily astrology supports me when I say it's
going to change.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
It's all going to change.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Here's an important change that people that listen to this
podcast really care about.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
That's really major.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
They made an arrest in the case of the Long
Island serial killer. I am obsessed, how wild and how like,
I have to say, And I guess it's like this
for many cases that are old. How hopeless I felt
about that case. Yeah, and then I got a series
of texts at seven am from people and I'm like,

(08:33):
oh yay, it's another one, Like they just keep breaking
these cases.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Unbelievable and it's so yeah, so we're recording this when
he just got arrested, so who the fuck knows. It's exciting,
Like what's going to happen in a week or so
when this goes on, Like we won't even know, but
I've been reading it. The way they caught him with
the fucking cell phone triangulation shit is like fascinating and
so rad And the pizza crest, the pizza cresting DNA

(09:00):
swabbed like I don't even eat who eats pizza like that?

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Like it's just you mean, doesn't eat the crust? No
one I know, No, what is he like licking the crust.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
It's just like it's like such a tiny amount of
DNA they're able to get is fascinating the holder.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
But it's the holder.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Oh is it the fingerprints?

Speaker 3 (09:17):
I don't I thought it was a teeth.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Oh he's eating pizza backwards. He should be arrested outside
in Yeah, that's sad news.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
You know my dad, My dad eats pizza by scraping.
He doesn't want the carbs of the crust, so he
scrapes the sauce and toppings and cheese off and eats that,
and so he's just always left with this plate full
of empty crusts, like sad.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Marty, Marty, live a little, You're okay.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
I think he just decided to start eating the crust
to live a little. Like he just like turned a
new leaf and was like, you know what, I'm seventy seven,
I'm eating the fucking crust.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Fatten up, buddy, it's time. You're okay. Oh every picture
in your life is you skinny?

Speaker 3 (09:59):
You've done it.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah. So him getting caught is amazing. I can't wait
for all these families to finally have answers. And what
a monster. What a monster.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Also, it's very interesting, and I think this is the
interesting thing to me about the attention these cases get
now and the way they're laying out.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
It's going to be very interesting.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
To see how that department handles all of it, especially
in comparison to the Idaho for murders, because the police
sheriff all those people in Moscow, Idaho handled the communication
part of those of that arrest and what they were
doing and what they could say and what they couldn't say.
It was like going to school, and I just hope

(10:43):
that that is the thing that continues going forward.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
As opposed to transparency.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
You're saying it's transparency, but it's also instructing people. You
can't have this answer right now, it's not known like
these these little factoids came out because the police get
to say what led them to this moment. But if
all of that doesn't prove out, then that's where we'll
be at the end of the trial, like basically kind
of getting interested in the rest of the story, which

(11:10):
I think I've said it before when the Idaho for
arrest took place, that I was just so blown away
by that DA and that all the law enforcement officers
that were speaking on behalf of the case because they
were just like laying it out.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Not sensationalizing anything, and just making it.

Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, and like instructing the press.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Basically you can ask anything you want, we can't tell
you and you should understand that. And this is how
we're doing it going forward. It's an active case until
it's ended.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
So I just want to know more, though I want
I'm fighting between wanting to know everything, tell me everything,
and knowing that that's a private matter for these victims
families to be able to process that and has nothing
to do with me or Reddit or the fucking Internet.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
So yeah, right, I.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Know that's the true crime, the true crime conundrum, I guess,
the true crime of it all.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, it also makes me think of that the Long
Island Serial Killer made for TV movie. I don't think
it was a series that. I think it's called Lost Girls,
and our friend Liz Carbus directed it. And that mother
who fought all the way through didn't give a shit.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
But like, that's the.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Person that I'm kind of holding a place in my
heart for because what all those families went through and
the way they had to fight and got ignored and
got told to get out of our area. This is
not your area, Like so disgusting and horrible. It's just
going to be it's just going to be amazing to
watch that and know that those people at least have

(12:45):
a little bit of peace.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Right now, Well, the monster can't call them anymore, you know,
he was calling them the victim's cell phone, Like what
I mean?

Speaker 2 (12:56):
And is that one of the triangulation part you were
talking about?

Speaker 1 (12:59):
One of them one of many? Yeah, Like, but it's
just like the depravity of a person who would do
any of this obviously, but then I mean, yeah, it
just it's just so hard to look at this picture
of this man and like the depths of evil, you'll
never will never understand that.

Speaker 3 (13:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, anyway, that's our show. Should we go dip quickly
back into astrology before we go out into our other topics?

Speaker 1 (13:28):
So should we just get moved, get it, move in,
let's do it, let's do exactly right corner time. We
have a podcast network called exactly Right. Here's some updates,
here's some stuff.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
And by the way, if you are an astrologer, please
forgive me for just trying to throw down literally what
was at the top of my head to tell Georgia
that's how I know, that's how a lot of us
talk about stuff. We're just like, yeah, we try to
approximate the millions of videos we've watched. It.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
We're not trying to teach a course.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
We really are not in any way in anything. Okay,
So this week on the Exactly Right Network if you
miss this, the first episode of Ghosted by Roz Hernandez
starring Georgia Hardstark, is now available, and then episode two
with the Great Busy Phillips is now available and those

(14:19):
episodes will be coming out every Monday. Please give Roz
a follow wherever you like to listen.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
Great review and subscribe any podcasts you love. It helps
them out so much and I'm sure Roz Hernandez would
love that. And then on Buried Bones, Kate Wagler Dawson
and Paul Hols discuss the Crumbles murders, two separate incidents
which took place on the beaches of England in the
nineteen twenties.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
And over in the MFM merch Store, if you're looking
for some silky pjs, we have them for you, featuring
illustrations by Rachel Flannery. And those illustrations are of our pets.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
They're very cute. I own a pair and they're adorable. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, And now true Crime.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Now the true crime do you go first?

Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yes? Okay, good now listen. Look. Look, so today's story.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
I found it when I was staying with my dad
over the holidays and I try not to look at
my phone, like before I go to bed.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
So my dad has a stack of books.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
On the in a guest room on the nightstand that
are that have been there since I think nineteen eighty nine. Yeah,
there's one about golf. There's like musings about golf. Yeah,
there's I'm pretty sure that one about sea biscuits on.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
There a lot of a lot.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Of those kinds of barge hard hardback ones, the big
ones with the like shiny covers. My grandma had those
two for the same ones for years.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Kind of dusty, but they're sitting there, and I think
it was like, you know, one night a while ago,
I realized, oh, there's plenty of good reading. My dad's
a big reader. And before the Kindle came out and
everything on Kindle now, but my parents had tons of books.
So I'm like, oh, I'll just go to sleep reading
these books. And last time I picked up a book
and it was called San Francisco Homicide Inspector five Henry seven,

(16:13):
written by retired detective Frank Folzone.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
And when I.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Opened the book, it was the inside was dedicated from
Frank Foulzone to my cousin Marty, who used to.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
Be right, yeah, wow.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
My d a day and he I talked about long
ago when we covered the Nightstalker. Marty and his partner
who was Frank Fealzone's son, they were the first cops
on scene when the nightstalker broke into that house in
the Marina, and they took fingerprints that led to Richard

(16:46):
Ramirez being identified later on. So that was that Thanksgiving
where he told that story at the dinner table, and
I was like, how in the world do we not
know this already? Like what are you doing? So it
was kind of funny. I'm like, oh, perfect, I'll just
read a series of cases Frank Falzone worked on during
his career as a homicide detective. This is great reading

(17:09):
to go to sleep too. And in that book, I
found this case that I really found compelling. So today
I'm going to tell you a story. It starts in
San Francisco in nineteen seventy three, so just for a
little perspective, Basically, nineteen sixty seven was the year people
started going in mass numbers to San Francisco for you know,

(17:31):
flower children, counterculture. Basically, they all went to the Haye
Ashbury District, lured by the promise of free love and
free drugs and a chance to make a difference in
both the fight for civil rights in this country and
also to protest the war in Vietnam. It peaked in
nineteen sixty nine with the Summer of Love, and in
the years after, San Francisco was a little bit of

(17:52):
a hangover mode. There was kind of that naivete turning
to a jaded knowing of like, oh, there's no such
thing as free drugs uggs or free sex or you know,
like this fight is going to be harder than just
all of us sitting in the park beyond acid.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
And I think that's when Hell's Angels shut up and
were like things got dark at that point.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, well someone had to be providing the free drugs, right,
and so basically, you know, all those connections. It was
like that's a nice concept, but there's there's always more
to it. So nineteen seventy three, the idealism of hippie
culture still prevails in San Francisco, and the city continues
to draw new residents from all.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
Over the world.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
But of course the CD underside is really starting to show.
And it's in the midst of this cultural awakening and
reawakening that a little known killer terrified San Franciscans was
seemingly random and very public attacks. This is the story
of the paper bag killer.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Ooh yeah, I don't think I know this one.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
I had never heard of it myself, and I thought
I kind of knew of, like any kind of a
story like this from up there, but it was lesser known,
and it was happening kind of in the same time
frame as a bunch of other crazy stuff, so it
was like there was a little more obscure.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
So just real quick.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
The sources used in today's story are the book I mentioned,
San Francisco Homicide Inspector five Henry seven, by Frank Fouzane.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
I've definitely heard his name before. We've talked about him before,
for sure.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Right. Oh yeah, Well, let me I'll read you the
rest of the title of that book, which is it's
San Francisco Homicide Inspector five Henry seven, My inside story
of the Nightstalker, city hall murders, zebra killings, Chinatown gang wars,
and a city under siege. So this is a detective
that worked, you know, on the forest for so long.

(19:45):
He was there for every major, crazy, famous case in
the city.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Also excerpts from the book Super Sleuths by Bruce Henderson
and Sam Summerlin, and multiple San Francisco Examiner articles from
throughout the seventies, and the rest of our sources are
in the.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
Show notes for today.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Okay, so this all starts in the morning of October sixteenth,
nineteen seventy three. It's a clear, sunny autumn day in
San Francisco, and a plumpbaled seventy year old man named
Lorenzo Carnelia is walking along Third Street with a slight limp.
All of those things will be relevant later.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
So today. The neighborhood that Lorenzo was.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Walking in in nineteen seventy three is actually where Oracle Park,
where the San Francisco Giants play their home games. It's
right down there by the water. Now it's very kind
of fancy. There's tons of high rises, but back in
the early seventies, Third Street was mostly industrial buildings and warehouses,
so there's not a lot of foot traffic. It's actually
kind of desolate, and it's unclear where Lorenzo is going

(20:51):
that morning as he walks along Third Street. What we
do know is that he's carrying the Daily Racing form
under his arm, and he's near the Greyhound bus station.
It wouldn't be unusual for Lorenzo to hop on a
bus to San Mateo to go bed on some ponies.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
At bay Medo's.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Racetrack, except that today's Tuesday and there are no races
on schedule at Bay Meadows, so we don't know what
Lorenzo was doing walking around there. But we do know
is that around eleven thirty am, a young man starts
tailing Lorenzo walking down the sidewalk with urgency and purpose.
He follows a completely oblivious Lorenzo until he's just a

(21:28):
few feet away from him, and that's when this young
man raises a hand that's covered by a paper bag,
points it at Lorenzo's back, and pulls the trigger on
the concealed handgun inside. The young man shoots Lorenzo Carnelia in.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
The back three times.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
So multiple people witness this attack because there's like a
hotel right across the street, so there's people. There's not
a lot of people walking around, but there are people
that like have we're looking out their window or like
have eyes on. So multiple people do witness the attack.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
So the police are called, but.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
By the time they arrive, Lorenzo is in critical condition.
He's rushed by ambulance to a nearby hospital, where he
dies from his injuries. So back at the scene, the
police are searching for evidence. The gunman is long gone,
and aside from a small pool of blood and Lorenzo's
crumpled up issue of the Daily Racing Form, there's almost

(22:23):
no evidence to be found, and there aren't shell casings,
which lead the police and later the investigators to believe
a revolver was used.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
In the attack.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
So officers begin interviewing the eyewitnesses, and they described the
gunmen as a young, thin man between the ages of
eighteen and twenty two. They say he had long blonde hair,
wore a yellow shirt and faded jeans, and these witnesses
report that after shooting Lorenzo, the gunmen reportedly ran Norse
toward Market Street. So as helpful as all that information is,

(22:55):
especially given the lack of physical evidence on the scene,
this description is not much to go on.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
It's San Francisco in the early.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Seventies, so the amount of white men with long blonde
hair and blue jeans is countless. So homicide detectives Frank
Fellzone and Jack Cleary are assigned this case. The detectives
when they arrive and they see the lack of evidence,
they decide to focus on witness testimony to drum up leads,
so they just try to interview as many people as possible.

(23:23):
So they start knocking on doors at the CD Hotel
that's directly across from the murder scene, and they basically
just go from room to room knocking on the door
to try to get people to talk to them, which
I'm sure was super fun. Almost no one has useful information.
Most people are not talking, not until they get to
the third floor and they're a man named Anthony Miller,

(23:45):
whose room looks right out over the crime scene, agrees.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
To speak with them.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
In the book, Frank Foulezone says Anthony was not the
most charming host.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
Is the way to put it.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
He complains about not being asked to sit down, but
none of that really matters because this is the first
person that actually has some good information for them. He
tells Falzone and Cleary that after shooting Lorenzo, the gunman
ran toward a nearby parking lot, where he takes off
his yellow shirt, throws it on the ground, changes into
a green shirt, runs back to Third Street, walks about

(24:18):
another half a block north, hops into a parked white van,
and speeds away.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
What the fuck?

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, so that's actually a nice you know a witness statement.
The only thing Anthony couldn't give them was the van's
license plate number, and that was just because it was
too far away to see. So Falzone and Cleary jog
back across the street. They go to that parking lot,
and just as Anthony described, they find the gunman's yellow
shirt on the ground. It's described as quote a worn

(24:47):
T shirt, tight eyed yellow with a bold chain pattern
blocked out on the front. So pictures of this shirt
are shown on the evening news and they run in
local newspapers, but unfortunately that doesn't lead to any new tips.
So without much else to go on, the investigation into
Lorenzo Carnelia's murder stalls out two months later on a
cold December morning at the corner of fifth and Fulsome Streets,

(25:11):
which is relatively close by. It's kind of in the
same area as where Lorenzo Carnelia's murder took place at
Fifth and Fulsome. I'm a fifty four year old man
named Ara Kuznezov is bundled up in a raggedy coat.
He's walking in the direction of the Lifeline mission and
he's planning on eating a free breakfast there that morning.

(25:31):
But the mission is not opened, so Aara's just kind
of pacing around outside, walking up and down the street
as he's waiting. So what's interesting about this is Aara,
like Lorenzo Carnelia, is plump, bald, and walks with a
slight limp, and just like Lorenzo, Area is being watched.

(25:51):
A white van has just pulled into the parking lot
of the gas station next door, and a young man
steps out of the vehicle wearing a hooded jacket and
a knit cap pulled down over his face. He's holding
something big and bulky under his arm that seems to
be wrapped in a brown paper bag. One witness will
later say that it quote looked like a broom and

(26:12):
a large brown grocery store bag. The young man quickly
walks down the sidewalk in the direction of the Lifeline mission,
unlike the day of Lorenzo Carnelia's murder, though there are
dozens of people around on the street on this morning,
but the young man is headed straight for Aara, who
is still standing totally oblivious outside the mission at this point,

(26:34):
and when the young man gets within three feet of him,
he pulls the bag from underneath his arm, sticks his
hands inside, lifts it in front of him, and fires.
Witnesses report seeing Aura look up once before being hit
by a shotgum blast in the face. The force of
the gunshot throws him to the ground. AA is killed instantly.

(26:55):
Horrified witnesses watch as the gunman stands in a daze
for a second or two and then runs back to
the gas station. So at this point, the paper bag's
been thrown off and the shooter is just walking down
this busy street holding a pump action shotgun out in
the open. He then jumps into his white van and
he manages to speed away before the police can make

(27:17):
it to the scene. So again, detectives fell Zone and
Cleary are called to the scene. And even though the
weapons in the two murders are different, the similarities between
the murders are obvious. In both instances, witnesses described a
young man with a gun concealed in a paper bag
fleeing in a white van. Both shootings also happened on

(27:37):
weekday mornings, within.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
Blocks of each other.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
So the detectives focus on their latest piece of tangible evidence,
and that's that paper bag that was left behind at
the crime scene. They quickly figure out it's from a
Safeway grocery store, which, if you've ever lived in San Francisco,
you know that's not going to help you that much
because there's several and several in the Bay Area. When

(27:59):
they actually look into it, it's estimated that ten thousand
of these exact same paper bags are used in those
stores every single day. So not great, But in this case,
the grocery bag ends up being an excellent clue because
it's thick paper makes a perfect canvas for fingerprints, and
police technicians are able to pull multiple prints off of

(28:21):
that paper bag. The bad part is, remember we are
in the early seventies, which might as well be the
seventeen hundreds. There is no computerized database that the investigators
can search to find a fingerprint match. There's no computers there,
so they have to search through the fingerprint database that

(28:42):
is basically a big binder with a bunch of fingerprints.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
You I imagine being that guy who has to like
compare thousands and thousands of fingerprints and then it might
either might not match or you've got it wrong and
it just didn't right.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
And also, how are were those organized? I mean, they
must have been in a way where it's like, Okay,
Swirl's going left, Swirl's going right, Like what's the system
in place on that old thing? Because you're just comparing
these intricate designs, like you know, how do you.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Do on Instagram? If you know how they used to
do fingerprint?

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yes, historical fingerprint experts, we'd love to have a discussion
with you, definitely. I mean it's the same thing I
think about when the way people used to edit movies, oh,
which is like they cut the film and they cut
the film by hand.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
It's it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Okay, So this operation seemingly borderline impossible, but it's essentially
you know how it was. It's all they have. They
also are trying to track down that white van. Investigators
search as many as four hundred vans over the next
several weeks and interview over one hundred drivers That turns
up nothing. They're back to square one, so they decide

(29:54):
to approach the investigation from a new angle. Instead of
looking at the gunman, fell Zone and Cleary decide to
focus on the victims, looking for any connection between these
two men, no matter how big or small. But there's
no connection that they can find. These men didn't know
each other. They didn't have much in common really at all.
Lorenzo was a semi retired contractor at the time of

(30:16):
his death. He was much older than Aura. He owned
several buildings around San Francisco. I think he was like
a landlord type. He had many friends, he was comfortable financially,
whereas Aara was living out of a hotel room with
no permanent address.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
He had just moved to the Bay Area.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
He had no belongings, and aside from a few pieces
of clothing and a New York State welfare card, he
just didn't have anything. He didn't seem to know anyone
in the city, and he was out of work at
the time of his murder. So two very different lives
joined by this horrible, horrific fact. But detectives fell Zone
and Cleary they do manage to find important similarities. Both

(30:56):
Lorenzo and Aura were older than the gunmen, much older.
And on top of that, both victims were bald, short,
heavy set, and walked with limbs. So that's kind of
a crucial and interesting similarities. So now it's January twenty fifth.
Three months have passed since the murder of Lorenzo Carnelia

(31:17):
in about a month since the murder of Ara Kuznezev.
There's a lack of strong leads in this in both investigations,
until a call comes through the San Francisco Police Department's
tip line and it's transferred directly to detectives fell Zone
and Cleary, and the man on the other end of
the phone seems very nervous, very cagey. He manages to

(31:38):
tell the investigators that he quote knows something that maybe
they ought to be aware of. He says that a
friend who drives a white van for his job at
a delivery service, has recently told him something that this
man doesn't want to share over the phone, so he
asks if the two detectives will meet him in a
public place, and he makes them promise to keep his

(31:58):
name out of the investigation. So the detectives agree to
keep the tipster anonymous and they head out to meet him,
and when they do, they're greeted by a young man
who's visibly nervous, and he tells them that he has
a good friend who's quote a real good guy, straight
and level, but who recently shared something that is very concerning.

(32:18):
According to this tipster, this man had been showing off
several guns and told him, quote, he was trying to
kill a man because this man was going around raping
young girls.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
End quote.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
And the tipster's friend who was making these claims even
said that he had murdered this rapist multiple times. What yeah,
But according to the friend, the rapist kept coming back
to life.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Oh fuck. His friend was just like, hey.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
His friend's like, I got a call somebody.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
But we were just fishing pool and suddenly this guy
fucking oh yeah, god.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
So scary.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
I literally just put a little dash and wrote bone
chilling underneath that because that is so scary. Then the
man tells the cops his friend's name is William Hanson.
So finally the detectives have a real lead and they
do some digging on that name and they learn that
William Hanson is twenty four years old, he's blonde. He

(33:17):
works a regular weekday shift from eight am to four
pm at a delivery service. It all matches the witnesses
descriptions of the gunman, and it seems that if this
man is a delivery driver, then that would give him
the opportunity to carry out these crimes while driving.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Around town at his job.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Of course, none of it's a smoking gun, but it's
a very good start after three months of very little.
They also find out that William's the son of one
of the most respected psychiatrists in California, and his mother
is a local advocate who's passionate about progressive causes. Basically
William Hanson's character and surrounding lifestyle, there's no red flow.

(34:01):
But then they dig a little deeper, and the detectives
learn about another brutal attack that happened just months before
Lorenzo Carnelia's murder. In February of the same year, an
unnamed fifty four year old businessman was walking a few
blocks north of Mission Street, and out of nowhere, he

(34:21):
sees a young man coming towards him with a knife.
The businessman tries to defend himself. There's a struggle. Fortunately,
the businessman is able to knock the knife out of
his attacker's hands, and before the young man could get away,
there are two patrol cops that are walking nearby. They
come in tackle this attacker. They take him to jail.

(34:43):
They bring him up on criminal charges. This attacker's name
is William Hanson shit and this businessman's description, his physical
description he's short, heavy set, bald, and he walks with
a limb. So the problem is when William Hans since
trial date rolls around, the businessman is working in Phoenix

(35:04):
and he can't testify, so those charges are dropped. What's
really crazy is the same businessman had been attacked two
months before that incident. In December of nineteen seventy two,
a businessman was ambushed while using a urinal inside the
Greyhound bus station bathroom near Market Street, which was the

(35:25):
same bus station that Lorenzo Carnelia would use to go
to the race tracks, all same area and also not
far from where Ara Kuzinov was murdered. So in the
bus station bathroom attack, the businessman told police quote his
assailant had come at him from behind, reached over his
shoulder and stabbed him in the chest Jesus, and then

(35:47):
the attacker vanishes before the businessman or any of the
eyewitnesses can get a good look at him. And it
never occurs to the businessman these two knife attacks were
carried out by the same person.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yea, you want to be like, of course, it's two
knife attacks, but it's like San Francisco in the seventies,
not great, Yeah, I need different places.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
It's crazy, and I'm sure he had his doubts. I mean,
like we I'm sure he didn't feel all one way
about it. But still you would think after the second
one where the guy actually gets arrested, you'd be like,
I'm gonna go ahead and take that week off work
as much for the case as.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
For my own totally myself.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, but this is the seventies when you weren't allowed
to care about yourself.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
So after they learn all this, Detective fell Zone and
Cleary are becoming convinced that William Hanson was behind all
the attacks that they have been investigating. So now that
they have a name and a previous arrest, they know
that that means William Hanson was almost certainly fingerprinted. So
they now get to have a much more focus search

(36:52):
through the fingerprint catalog and they locate William Hanson's fingerprints
and when they compare them to the prints that were
lifted from the Safeway shopping bag, they seem to be
a match. Now the investigators are able to secure both
an arrest warrant for Hanson and a search warrant for
his parents' house in the Forest Hill district where William lives.

(37:13):
When they arrive at the house, they are greeted very
warmly by doctor Hanson, whose hospitality fades to complete shock
when they explain to him why they're there. A thorough
search of the large home is conducted, and when they
get to William's room, they find both a revolver and
a shotgun, and in William's closet, officers find the clothing

(37:34):
that matches witness descriptions of what the shooter had been
wearing in each respective attack. So William's taken into custody.
He's brought to jail. His stun parents tell the detectives
they had no idea their son even owned a gun,
much less too, and in fact, everyone who knows the
Hanson family and knows William is shocked to hear this news.

(37:54):
William's friends describe William as a great guy, like no
one can believe it.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
The stories like doubling up on my birth control.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
It's the next day, I mean, it's well, but no,
this is interesting. And this is the reason that this
case stood out to me is because so often we
talk about these serial killer cases where you go, why
why did this person do this? Why is it happening.
What's really compelling to me is that nothing justifies any

(38:24):
of it. But there are these reasons that make so
much more sense than the normal reasons or lack of
reason that you seem to find in most of those cases.
So Williams transported to the police station and he's withdrawn,
but he is polite and helpful. But then something seems
to shift in his personality. According to Detective Valzone's story

(38:46):
in the book, Williams's demeanor dramatically changes as the detectives
outline all the evidence against him. He says, quote, it
was a complete change in character, voice, demeanor. He was
so delusional that he'd gone to an altered state. His
facial expression went from normal to cold, from a smile
to a grimace, his eyes narrowed, and his voice became guttural,

(39:07):
almost like a zombie in a horror movie. I'd never
seen anything like it in a suspect under question, oh
end quote. So just this real turn, maybe it's the
facade broke or who who knows what their reason could be,
could bend perception. But with this brand new version of
Williams sitting in front of them, the two detectives want

(39:28):
to know conclusively if this is their guy. And it
doesn't take long for William to start talking, and what
he tells them is extremely disturbing. So this is another
quote from the book. It says there was a man,
a man whose image was fixed in his mind, who
was going around raping young women. He knew what this
man looked like, stocky, bald, walked with a limp. The

(39:50):
girls were innocent, Hanson said, And that's why he had
to kill this man. He knew he had to kill
and kill again until he finally put this man away.
The man would always come back, no matter how many
times he tried to kill him, this man would always
be there again on the street, he said. The man
tried to disguise himself by wearing different sized ears, or

(40:11):
a different nose, or sometimes having thin fingers and sometimes
having fat fingers, but he could always tell because he
could never change his height, his weight, the shape of
his face, and in particular his peculiar walk.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
God end quote.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
So this is a very young man who is clearly
going through some sort of mental illness and delusion and
essentially hallucinating the same rapist that no matter how many
times how violently he attacks him. He just keeps turning
up again.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
I mean, I think there's literally an episode of Twilight
Zone like that.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, it's to be in that reality. What a nightmare,
What a just a horrible nightmare. So William Hanson has
handed two murder charges and he awaits his trial in jail.
But two huge questions remain. How did this privileged, popular,
respected young man become convinced there was a shape shifting

(41:08):
predator stalking women in San Francisco and what drove him
to carry out such violent attacks. The answers come during
Hanson's trial. According to the Hanson family attorney, William had
been through horrible things in the past few years. One
of his siblings died by suicide and the other died
suddenly in.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
A car accident.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Oh God.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
And then on top of that, his relationship with his
fiancee had recently ended. And this in particular seems to
mark a huge shift for William, which would make sense
if he had all that grief in his life and
then his primary relationship ends. Now we don't know anything
about his fiance except this crucial and horrible fact. In

(41:52):
nineteen seventy two, she had been the victim of a
brutal rape at the hands of a stranger god, and
she described her at as quote an older man, round faced,
heavy set, who limped or dragged his foot slightly when
he walked.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
So William's attorney puts forth the theory that his client
became fixated on getting revenge on his fiance's rapist, and
the thought of killing this man, whoever he was.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
Became William's obsession.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
To be clear, this lawyer never suggests that that therefore
justified what his client did, or that what he did
was noble, simply arguing the fact that William was suffering
with mental illness and was clearly in severe delusion when
these attacks took place. Here's a quote from that attorney.
He said, quote William's imagination created a fantasy world in

(42:46):
which he was a Don Quixote trying to rectify the
wrongs that were done to.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
A girl he loved. End quote.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
So, in May of nineteen seventy four, William Hansen is
found not guilty by reason of insanity, and he is
sent to a Tescadero State Hospital where he is treated
for that mental illness for an undisclosed period of time,
and then released and that's the same psychiatric facility where
notorious serial killers like the co ed killer Ed Kemper,

(43:16):
the freeway killer William Bonnan, and the Manson family murderer
Tex Watson all serve time as well. Wow. And that
is the story of San Francisco's paperbag killer.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Wow, I'd never heard of that, And what a wild
story that came together in such an awful tragic way.
But it made sense. You know.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
It's like like you rarely get a line of logic
from a serial killer that you can follow and go, oh. Now,
there's always stories of horrifying, abusive childhoods, you know, the
whole dark triad combination where it's no one is purely evil,
no one is born evil, all those things, But this

(44:00):
one is a serial killer that it's almost like, God,
that's it's such a.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
It's okay, clear linear. It's so linear.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
It's yes in a way that it almost never is
that it just it found I found it to be
incredibly Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Wow, what's the name of that book again? Oh?

Speaker 2 (44:18):
You are the longest title of all time. I swear
to God, I borrowed this book from my dad. I'll
just say this, I borrow this book from my dad
so I can read every story in it, and my
dad bugged me about mailing it back to him, as
if he was just like, hey, that's not mine, it's Marty's.
You got to give it back. And I was like,
so you gave me two weeks to read this book,

(44:39):
and then of course I just wasn't doing it, and
finally I mailed it to him and he came down
to visit me like three days later. I'm like, so
glad you got the book back.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
That's like intense, like or are you in the middle
of it? I don't understand.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
He just didn't want to be the one that he goes,
hey it's signed. I'm like, I know, it's it's okay.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
He's he literally I was the guy that's going to
throw your books in the pool when you're done with them,
So I think.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
I try not to though, though you know you, this
is the man who's seen me do every stupid fucking
thing I've done for my entire life and had to
pay handsomely for all of those things, so he's sick
of my shit. The book is titled San Francisco Homicide
Inspector five Henry seven by Detective Frank Fellzone.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Great, pick it up wherever you buy your indie books.
That's right, No, don't buy indie books at indie bookstores.
You know, whatever you want. Yeah, real quick, I would
like to point out that while you were telling me
that story, we got a group text you, me and
Alejandra from none other than Stephen Ray Morris. It's his

(45:46):
first recording not with us, and it just says like
he knew what time we were recording because we do
it every week. He says, hope you're all having a
great recording. Hearthartheart.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Oh, Steven say that.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
That's very start. I love it.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
It is.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
It is a little I was.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
I had that thought before we started where I was
just like, you can't think about it, or you'll start
thinking about it and like go too far into it.
But it's like I'm so weirdly. I was going to
say suspicious, but is it superstitious? Where I'm just like,
what if Steven's the magic and he's gone and we're done.
It was Stephen all along, God damn.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
It, oh shit, yeah that would be hilarious if he
was like the glue.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
Yeah that hell, we'll just gather.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
We'll have to just shut it all down and open
our respective donut shops or whatever plans we have, whatever
next phase plan.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
It's a donut shop, how did you know?

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Okay, well, should I have to? I have to open
one across the street from you. Definitely directly compete.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
It'll be I'll call mine G and K's Donuts, and
you call yours K and G Donuts, and we'll just
perfect compete.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
I'm going to do K and G Donuts and Chinese
food just to get the edge.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Sure we're in La after all. Yeah, Okay, I've got
a classic for you.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Great.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
It's a story that I'm sure we've all heard of,
but I didn't know the details of. And so today
I'm going to tell you the details of the Dancing
Plague of fifteen eighteen.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
Oh yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Main sources for the story are a book by John
Waller called A Time to Dance A Time to Die
dn John, Yeah, like what were the other tons?

Speaker 3 (47:33):
He titled the shit out of that book?

Speaker 1 (47:35):
He really did a twenty nineteen episode of exactly right
this podcast will kill you hey, of course, and the
rest of this sources can be found in our show notes.
So you and I right now, Karen picture it. We're
going to Strasbourg, which is now part of France, but
Strasburg is in the Alsauce region on the border between

(47:58):
France and Germany. Oh, it's like half timbered houses and
then glasses of reasling. But this is in the fifteen hundreds,
you know, and at the time Strasburg was part of
the Holy Roman Empire, so it wasn't France yet. That
existed in some form between eight hundred AD to eighteen
o two. In its height contained modern day Germany and

(48:20):
some or all of the other modern day countries that
surrounded it. You have to think of it as a
precursor to modern day Germany than having much to do
with Rome. So that's the idea. That's where we are.
That's what it looks like, all right. So a story
begins with this poor woman named Prau Trofoya, which translates
basically the lady Trofoia, And we don't know her first name. Unfortunately,

(48:41):
she's just a frow in our bonnets, like Frau Blucher
from a young Frankenstein Actley. It's a hot day in
July of fifteen eighteen. Proud Trofolia walks outside and begins
to dance. She's hopping from foot to foot, which doesn't
sound like a great dance to me. Sounds like really
a jig. You know.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
She's doing it over the pony's kind of Charlie Brown.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
Yeah, peanuts can dance.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
And it doesn't like of course, people come out and
start gawking at her. Her husband begs her to stop,
but she continues dancing well into the night in front
of the growing crowd, and initially some of her neighbors
believe that she's dancing just to annoy her husband, by
some accounts, was like a grumpy dude. So she's just like,
fuck you, I'm dancing. But people dismiss this quickly when

(49:30):
Trofia continues to dance for hours despite being in physical pain.
Oh yeah, like that sounds really unpleasant.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
She dances until she can barely move and then collapses
to the ground and falls asleep. As soon as she
wakes up, she begins dancing again, and she continues to
dance for several days. Some people say four, some people
say six days. Some of Frau Trafeya's neighbors suspect witchcraft.
Of course, just go right to witchcraft or to possession

(50:01):
just go there, you know.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
It, just it's always in your pocket. Backs there, backs
back in the fifteen hundred.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Know what this looks like. But they settle on a
consensus eventually that she's being punished by Saint Vitas. Are
you familiar with this bro?

Speaker 3 (50:15):
I've heard.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
I mean, he's not one of my main saints personally,
but I've heard of him because of the phrase Saint
Vitas dance.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
Oh well, there you go. Okay. And actually this is
not the first recorded instance of dancing plague in Europe,
if you can believe it. Similar events are recorded throughout Europe,
particularly in France, Germany and Switzerland, starting around the year
ten seventeen. In the year twelve thirty seven, a large
group of children in modern day Germany are said to
have broken out and spontaneous dancing, in like hopped and

(50:46):
danced from their town to a town twelve miles away.
Is far and this actually might be this the inspiration
for the story of the pie Piper.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
Oh interesting right.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
Some accounts say that the outbreak of that these dancing
children started on Saint Vitas's day, So people connect the
dancing plague to Saint Vitas, believing it is a punishment
from him. Oh God, about right in your Catholicism.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
I mean yeah, punishment, random punishment on children. Absolutely, how
we do that other thing?

Speaker 1 (51:20):
And then in the late fourteen hundreds, people curse their
enemies by saying God give you Saint Vitas or Saint
Vibas come to you, which is a sick burn. Back then,
and around fifteen hundred, an altar panel at the Cathedral
of Cologne in Germany is painted to show Saint Vidas
helping three men with the dancing plague. So back then
people believe that saints could both help the worthy and

(51:43):
also dole out punishments. So just as Saint Vitas could
cure the dancing he could also cause it. And at
the time Frau Trofayach starts dancing in fifteen eighteen, she
and her neighbors would have probably known about the threat
from Saint Vitas.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
Okay, sorry, really quick.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
This is basically that by this point in history, this
is something that's been happening for off and on for
five hundred years.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
That's crazy, like it's a it's a thing that happens.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Maybe it's back then, It's like, that's how long it
took something to go viral, like a roughly five hundred
because they're.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
Talking about like France and Germany and Switzerland. It's like
it has to travel, you know.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
Yeah, and there's a lot of mount out.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Of mountain ranges its stuff. Yeah, and people don't like
live to be people live to be like thirty, so
it's not like that that much time to like figure.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Yeah, they're like really.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Quick, really quick for spread the word of the dancing.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
They're like what.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
So after a close to a week of dancing fraud,
Trofia is brought by wagon thirty miles away from her
home up a small mountain to a shrine dedicated to
Saint Vibas. She is cured of her dancing.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
It stops.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
She's brought back to Strausburg, where she discovers that the
dancing has spread.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
Oh yeah, so she's stopped, but other people starties.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
A trendsetter and it's nice scrappening. By late July, more
than fifty people in Strasbourg are dancing. Most people describe
them as being in kind of a trance state. They're
not talking, they're just staring and hopping around. Yeah, doesn't
sound chill. The local government intervenes by consulting both clergy

(53:19):
and physicians. Though Frau Trophia had been brought to the
shrine for a religious cure, which the church supports, the
team of physicians insists that the plague is not caused
by Saint Vitas but overheated blood, and the only cure
for the dancing is more dancing.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
That is a true non solution right there.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
Movie footloose, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (53:42):
I mean, God, you know it has its roots there,
Jesus though, what it?

Speaker 3 (53:48):
Okay? This is fascinating.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Yeah, and the fucking we're talking about physicians back then,
they're not physicians today.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Those are like, yeah, those are the ones that were like,
you have too much black bile in your system, so
we need to bleed you and put leeches on you.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
So the town, because the only care for the dancing
plague is more dancing, the town sets up several dedicated
dancing areas, including one that has a stage, and they
bring in musicians and they ask the healthy and robust
people to dance with the afflicted dancers to keep them moving,
thinking that they need it. Dancers are given food and
water and weak ale and wine, so they're like encouraged

(54:28):
to dance.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
Basically, it's now a festival. Yeah, that's right, it sounds like.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
But John Waller, who wrote the book A Time to Dance,
A Time to Die, said quote, day after night, night
after day, the dancers continued with their delirious motions. One
can picture them in late July fifteen eighteen, eyes unfocused,
faces turned up to heaven, their arms and legs moving
with fatigue, and their shirts, skirts and sockings soaked with

(54:59):
sw amid. The beat of drums and the melodies of
pipes and horns rose, the monotonous tapping of clogs and
leather boots on hard floors and wooden stages, together with
the sobs of onlookers, and the occasional despairing cry or
terrified scream from the dancing host. So it's not a party.

(55:21):
It does not sound chill. The thought of dancing and
wooden clogs sounds like a fucking nightmare.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Also, like, I just.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
I really would love to know the unknown story of
the family that lived in that town that were like
like pack up in the middle of the night.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
This is fucking weird.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
They're so creepy. Yes, yeah, my feet hurt just fucking
reading this shit. So the dancing cure with the dedicated
dancing areas. That doesn't work obviously. In fact, it seems
to do the opposite, as more and more people seem
to catch the dancing plague and they join in right. So,
but the following month in August, between two hundred and

(56:03):
four hundred people are just fucking straight up dancing in
the street.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Because you can't fight fomo. You just can't. Like it's
it's from all times, it's ancient. Fomo is ancient. Yeah,
And some of them push their bodies so far in
the summer heat because it's the fucking August at this
point that they die, so like people died from dancing plague.
The total number of deaths is unknown. One account says
that at one point as many as fifteen people are

(56:30):
dying a day, so that would quickly bring the death
total to more than fifty, possibly one hundred.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
So like a water bummer, and what a way to go,
truly truly nasty.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
The city officials backpedal, and then you know how they
were like, everyone dance, that's the cure. Now they're like,
there's no dancing at all, we forbid it. So they
dismantled the stage and tell the afflicted that if they
have to dance, it must be in the privacy of
their own homes. And they also return to the religious
approach and bring a group of dancers to the shrine
of Saint So it does, and it takes days to

(57:02):
get there, so it is a hall. Once at the shrine,
priest placed the dancers, still fucking dancing, under a wooden
statue of Saint Vitas. They give them crosses to hold,
put red shoes on their feet. Not sure why, but
it has some connection to Saint Vibas and the Saint
Vibis ritual works. And Strasburg continues to send the dancers

(57:22):
to the shrine until there are no dancers left.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
Huh.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
It almost sounds like it's in their heads.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
It almost sounds like perhaps a placebo of some kind.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
But okay, no, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
Well, it's just like it makes sense that if you know,
you ritualize the cure and kind of involve everybody and
people are it's yet another thing that they're all going
through together, and kind of like that that the thing
that's taking them along that way can be stopped in
that same if it's outside of them, they don't know
why it's happening, then here, we'll put you through this

(57:56):
machine that'll stop it.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
It's like okay, and.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
They truly don't know. It's like they're trying to trick people, right,
They just they believe it probably.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Right after you could accuse people of that for the
first seventeen hours of dancing, but then after that, they're
not faking, especially in clogs, especially if people.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
Are crying sobbing.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
Oh, I'm just picturing myself, like in my early twenties,
I used to go dancing a lot, and I'm just
picturing myself sobbing on the dance because my shoes were
always uncomfortable, right, Like they never fit right because they
get like vintage heels or like some they couldn't be
just like fucking Adidas, right like, So like I get it.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
Yeah, you relate.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
I thought of your your raving days as well, where
it's like, at least these people didn't have to go
and get a secret egg that gave them the password
to get the location or whatever.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Weird way you guys used to do. I used to
wear like stacks.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
You know, just full platforms straight off of them.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
Right.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Oh my god. Okay, So let's talk about theories. The
first working theory of what caused the dancing plate comes
from Paracelsus, who's like, that's he's like a madonna, like
a one word name. That's how famous he is. He's
a physician and alchemist who vidited Strosberg in fifteen twenty six.

(59:13):
He learned about the plague and later wrote about it,
and he described the victims of the disease as choreomaniacs,
which is fucking rad, like, get choreography maniacs.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Oreomaniacs got it?

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Yeah, like that, and suggested that they developed it because
their thoughts were quote free lewde and impertinent, resulting in
a quote voluptuous urge to dance.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Basically, there was too much of the Roman Catholic church
up in everybody's business, and they were like, what if
we just did everything that God doesn't want us to do?
Shake our asses all around town voluptuously.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
I picture this guy's being played by David Bowie in
The Labyrinth, right, that makes it better.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
He's that guy's there, corio mania. Don't look at his eyes,
they are two different colors.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
As the plague spread mostly to women, he said it
was targeting idle and disloyal wives. That was his fucking veme.
It should be noticed that Paracelsus was known oh wait,
it's not David Bowie even at the time for his
particular hatred of women, and Ali, my researcher, made a
good point of to be a noted misogynist in fifteen thirty,

(01:00:28):
it had to be really bad.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Yeah, back when women had zero rights.

Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
And then it's like you should see.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
This, Like everyone's like, whoa, dude, that's a little far.
But we yes, we flog our wives. But like you
take it, mister broad but.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Yeah, you seem especially bitter.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
So another theory that emerges later is our friend urgat poisoning,
which we definitely heard of. That was one of the
theories of the Salem witch trials.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Right, yep, that's been a theory behind a lot of things.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Well you you talked about it in you talked about
ergotism and Saint Anthony's fire during your story on the
Great Famine of thirteen fifteen last year. Oh right, thanks,
that's thanks to Ali's note. That was episode three fifty one,
which we named High five Halloween for some reason, don't
remember what, who knows, I never it might not have

(01:01:19):
been Halloween. It just happened. So what. Ergut is a fungus,
of course, that grows on rye, which grew in the
region and was a major food source. When someone ingests
the toxic fungus, ergut poisoning can cause pollutioninations, and spasms,
but most of the time it causes restricted circulation, resulting

(01:01:39):
in gang green, a burning sensation, and a very painful death.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Oh no, there are some people who potentially had that
going on at the same time, right, dancing themselves to death.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Well maybe, Okay, So not long ago, I was on
a new medication and I had to stop taking it
because the side effect I got from it was restless
leg Oh, and I have here to fucking tell you
that is no joke. I was laying in bed, been
sleeping and I didn't want to wake him, but there
I couldn't not kick my legs. I would have fucking

(01:02:13):
exploded if I didn't do it. It was like my whole
body was upset. Wow yeah, like wow electric It sucked
so bad. So I could see that. If you have
urgut poisoning, and like one of the things it causes
is restricted circulation, it also causes spasms like you're kind
of fucking lose your mind and go dance in the street, right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Yeah, because you're trying to get that feeling out of
your body because you have to move.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Yeah yeah, so yeah that interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Have you been eating a lot of raw rye lately?

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
No, but I'm eaning a lot of fungus and ergo,
you love that fungus. Okay. The thing is, though, the
risk of urgut poisonings were well known at the time,
so they knew that. In fact, one mill was decorated
with harvings of contorted faces, which are believed to be
reminders of the dangers of the poisoning, so like people

(01:03:06):
were aware of it already, okay. And the symptoms of
the ergot poisoning were known as Saint Anthony's Fire because
of the burning sensation. Another one of your bros in
the Catholic right.

Speaker 3 (01:03:20):
We got a lot of them.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
They've done great work for humanity over the years.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
I guess one of the reasons people think you can
rule out urgoutism is because no contemporary descriptions of the
Dancing plague mentioned Saint Anthony's Fire, and people would have
known what it looked like basically, like they would have
already been failure enough of the symptoms. But you know things,
what is it? What's the word change.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
Progress at all?

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Thank you? So most people reject the ergut theory. And
then there's also the belief that dancers are cured by
praying to Saint Vitis, which doesn't explain Burgot poisoning. So
most people agree on the theory that this was an
instance of mass psychogenic ill illness, which is better known
as the very sexist term mass hysteria. So we're not
using hysteria anymore. Did you know that?

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
No? I didn't know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
It's now called mass psychogenic illness because hysteria, of course
comes from the Greek word for uterus, and for a
long long time it was a diagnosis only given to women.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
I mean it is like get off our backs.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Yeah, literally literally.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
For fucking ons in three facts, me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Have a fucking uterus and it not be the devil.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
Please, oh Jesus. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
So, mass psychogenic illness can cause physical symptoms to spread
throughout a population where there appears to be no external
cause for those symptoms, so basically fomo like you're talking about.
Most people agree that the cause is actually stress in
highly stressful circumstances. A person may experience that stress through
physical symptoms or uncontry rollable behaviors, which can then spread.

(01:05:02):
It doesn't mean the symptoms aren't real, though, and the
person doesn't believe that they have this affliction.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
You know, they're really going through somethings totally.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
That part's real.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
I'm going to tell you a couple instances of this.
In nineteen sixty two, students at a girl's boarding school
in Tanzania began laughing uncontrollably. It began with three students
and spread to sixty percent of the school, and the
school had to close. And when the girls went home,
the laughter spread to their villages and to other schools,
and the disruption lasted months and a total of fourteen

(01:05:35):
schools wind up having to be closed temporarily because of
the laughing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Now that's one that I immediately am like, it makes
perfect sense to me because you flip through TikTok and
there's like one baby laughing. I just saw this video
of a baby.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
The mom goes, what did you name your moth?

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
And he's like three years old, he's so little, and
he starts laughing and he's laughing so hard, he can't
say the name, and finally when he says it, he
named the moth Mothew. It's like, first of all, that
child is genius.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
He's like, gets how good that work?

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Plays well about his age for sure, well playing well above.
But then at the same time his laugh is like
I was laughing so hard just watching him, And yeah,
I think that the way, especially girls are tuned into
each other.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
And you know what I mean, literally in my fucking paperwork.
Oh ship, No, no, you're right, it's totally true. It is.
It is. It's empathy and that is a strong female trait.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Sorry, boys, work, work, work on empathy. Motherfuckers. So a
more recent case began in twenty eleven in Leroy, New York,
a small town outside Rochester. In that case, an outbreak
of ticks, which included twitching, humming, and arms swinging, spread
throughout a high school, starting with members of the cheerleading

(01:06:58):
team and ring to other students at the school, and
most doctors agree that this was a case of mass
psychogenic illness, although one doctor suspected a pediatric autoimmune disorder
caused by strap. So some students were treated with antibiotics
and others were not, but both groups eventually improved.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
So I remember that story because it yeah, because they
were just basically like, it's this thing again, is it
mass psychogeogenic illness?

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Is it mass psychogenic illness or is it something else
or whatever? And that yeah, just that idea of like
whenever a group of people all start doing something and
then people just keep joining and joining and joining, it's
like that's a yeah thing. Everyone's just like stopped for
a second. We need to talk about it, especially.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Because humans are such pack animals, right like that, Like
it's the thing where you see that that prank of
like people walk into an elevator and everyone's it on
it but one person and they all turn around and
face the other side of the elevator, and the person
who's not in on it does it too, because they're
just like, I'm the I can't be the only person
who doesn't know what's going on here.

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
No, In fact, that is being ostracized is like the
one thing people can't handle, and that's like that's human
behavior where all we do is try to connect with
the greater group. So anytime that's under threat, people will
do whatever it takes to stay in the past. That's

(01:08:21):
how we stay alive. That's lizard brain saying you have
to stay alive.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
Crazy. And even more recently, beginning in twenty twenty, shortly
after COVID started, teenage girls across the country and around
the world were going to doctors with ticks. The ticks
were often the same from patient to patient, even across
why geographical areas. Do you know about this? I know,

(01:08:46):
so I'm not gonna say who it is, but I
know a nineteen year old who's into TikTok and she
has these ticks. I've seen her do it, and I
think she picked it up from there. It's wid.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
Yeah, she's just looking at it and seeing other people.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
Down repetition of the same words and the same movements.
And it turns out that many of these ticks originated
with the same couple of content creators on TikTok who
actually had Tourette syndrome, and from watching those creators, the
teenagers developed some of the same tics. So it's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
I mean, that is what you do when you're a teenager, though. Yeah,
you look at who you admire and you try to
act like them because you want to be like them.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
It's like when you have a new friend and you
start saying the same slang they say, because you just
want to connect, because you're trying to connect with them.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
Yeah, and you're and you also want to be like
whatever level popular you think they are.

Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
It's like, oh, well, is this how you do it?

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
Is this?

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
It's natural?

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
So that visibility is key in the spreading of mass
psychogenic illness. That's why in Strasburg, that stage and the musicians,
you know that they made possible worse than the spread
of the plague in fifteen eighteen. And it's also probably
how Frau Trafaya winds up dancing to begin with, since
dancing plagues are known in the region and anxieties a

(01:10:00):
around Saint Vitis are common, so like she probably got
it from someone else too, you know, huh.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
Most experts agree that mass psychogenic illness is caused by
extreme stress, and this would certainly track for the dancing
plague of fifteen eighteen, because, in addition to general disease, filth,
and hardships that make being a sixteenth century European peasant
not fucking chill and fun, there are some specific hardships
going on in Strasbourg at the time. First of all,

(01:10:29):
in the background of all of this is discontent with
the corruption in the Catholic in your favorite Catholic church.
This will soon lead to the Reformation and the founding
of Protestantism. People feel spiritually neglected at the time when
the promise of something beyond this life is really the
only thing that keeps them going.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
That's right, right, I mean, just think about that where
just like that is not a good place to be
in where you're like whatever. Whenever this life is done
is when I'm going to get my reward. It's like, okay,
but what if just think about it. What if you
get there and they don't show that movie, then what
are you gonna do? Like do it now?

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
I'm doing it. Point is for generations to come, but
not me. And like you know what, up in the sky,
everything's going to be great when I go to Heaven.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
That's it, that's it, if only, if only so.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
All this is going on throughout Europe, while specifically in
Strasbourg there have been several straight decades of NonStop misery.
Syphilis arrived in the area for the first time in
the fourteen nineties and not that far before.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
Just real quick side note, syphilis is back in Texas
right now, Shut the fuck up.

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):
No joke.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
They're having an outbreak of syphilis in Texas. Just guys, guys,
protect yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
Are you doing?

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
Everybody?

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
Uh, they should get yourself tested. Use protection syphilis like old.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
School, like fucking nose falling off shit.

Speaker 3 (01:11:58):
Oh horrifying.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
Yeah, syphilis arrives. As I said, untreated syphilis. Let me
tell you what it can cause. It's a long and
gruesome and painful death. And there's no such thing as
treated syphilis until the twentieth century.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
And there's an outbreak of bubonic plague also in fifteen eleven.
So like they're just like, imagine if we had like
COVID and then like COVID happened again like ten years later.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
Like basically we're on the verge of dancing every moment
of very dance stress. Yeah, yeah, such stressress.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
Then starting in fifteen fourteen, there are a series of
really bitter winters, very dry, very wet summers. It destroys
harvests and causes the price of brain to nearly double.
Basically everyone's fucking starving. Everyone has these debts they can't
pay because the crops aren't growing. It's just a nightmare
of a place to live. Like you have a time machine,

(01:12:51):
x may on the fifteen hundred days.

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
You know, don't go back into any of those areas, truly.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
John Waller, the author of A Time to Dance.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
A Time Time Time.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
Which is also a name of a what's his name
James Bond movie? Probably right except for the dancing part.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
So, he says that it's almost certain that the majority
of the dancers in Strasburg were poor, the ones who
had been suffering the most for the past several years.
He writes, quote, we can be fairly sure that most
of the dancers had the lined faces, deep set eyes,
coarse gray clothes, loose, blackened or missing teeth, and the
stinking breath that spoke of the hardships of the lowest cast.

(01:13:39):
So that's who is dancing shut the the bummiest of
the bummers.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
Well, and also, I bet it felt pretty goddamn good
to just be like, fuck it all, I'm not gonna
go once again out into this field to reap or
so I'm just gonna leave and let all my cows
sit there unsaid, I'm gonna just go dance, pretund like
nothing else.

Speaker 1 (01:13:59):
I'm gonna have a like quick little mentee bee and
I'll be back when, like when I'm ready.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
Right, Yeah, If rau Blucher's doing it, why can't I
do it? They say to each other, and they're like,
you can. Don't worry about them. They built us a stage,
they brought a band.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
Yeah, everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
People's like getting out a work free card.

Speaker 3 (01:14:22):
Is like and farm work man. It just never ends.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
It's just it's a tough toil, the tough oil only
for the tough.

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
So just a few months after the dancing plague in
fifteen eighteen, news of Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation
reaches Strasbourg, and his teachings quickly become very popular. Luther
also rejects saint worship, so Saint Vitus no longer has
a hold over Martin Luther's new followers.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
Nice, what a convenient break.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
Can we give them high five?

Speaker 3 (01:14:53):
Please?

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
And at the same time, the Catholic Church responds to
the Reformation with crackdowns on corruption, so there are later
instances of people voluntarily dancing in devotion to Saint Bibis.
This instance was the last recorded dancing epidemic in Europe
so fucking ended.

Speaker 3 (01:15:11):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:15:11):
And that is the story of the Dancing plague of
fifteen eighteen, which most experts agree was a case of
mass psychogenic illness.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
Also the premiere of the term mass psychogenic illness on
this podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:15:24):
Wow, that's that was great? So fascina, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:15:27):
Thank you? You gotta know what ergot poisoning. I'm just
gonna pretend that I have any information other than I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:15:35):
It's fun to make a guess.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
At the end when you get all the factual information,
you're like, you know what, I'm going to throw all
that aside and say it was caused by astrology.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
You know what it was? Fucking virgo was in cancer
or no, what is it? The moon is in what's
the one? Mercury?

Speaker 3 (01:15:53):
It was mercury.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
Mercury was in retrogaed gret. That has to be a.

Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
I mean, wow, it's heavy, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
Heavy, it's funny, it's weird.

Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
I like learning, I like because I've had that idea
in my head, or like every time I've ever seen
the dancing plague, it's like, I never I've never read
any kind of a long article about it or anything.
It's always just like oh, interesting, and then not get
the details. So I like to know the details. And
it's like, it's so interesting to picture life back then

(01:16:32):
with all its kind of trappings.

Speaker 3 (01:16:34):
And then on top of that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
Like you live in this village where everyone is so
interconnected and so interdependent, and suddenly one lady starts dancing
and it all ghosted.

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
Fucking hell in a handbasket.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
Fucking five hundred years later, we're talking about it on
a true crime podcast. That's how fucking like instrumental it was.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
It's a it's a big deal. And also what has
happened in our history and what could come back? Sure,
because it would be very very interesting. Like mass psychogenic
illness is a fascinating topic. You know, how people are
affected by either becoming a part of a group or
being turned away from a group. I mean, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
There's some groups today that you could really question what
the fuck is going on?

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
It is there's a relevance to today's what we see
and how we're affecting. You know, everybody wants to talk about, Oh,
teenagers saw some influencers and they started doing the thing
the influencers doing.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
It's like it's not just teenagers.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
We've got some very old people out there doing the
exactly the same thing, but grosser and worse against their
fellow Mara.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
Just disgusting, And here we are, the coastal elite. Its
fucking being perfect. Thanks for listening, you friends, We appreciate
you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
Yes, thanks for coming back time and again over these
long seven years. It was our first episode without Steven,
So forgive the mistakes and the that hollow, empty feeling
inside of us because uh uh, you know it's gonna
it's gonna be a change, but we mustache out so

(01:18:15):
everyone feels I thank you, I appreciate that. I'll get
I'll get my go to you going, stay sexy, don't
get murdered.

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
Goodbye, Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want to cook?

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):
Key? This has been an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

Speaker 1 (01:18:42):
This episode was edited and mixed by Leona Scolacci.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
Our researchers are Mareon mcclashan and Ali Elkin.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
Email your hometowns and fucking rays to My Favorite Murder
at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
Followed the show on Instagram and Facebook at my Favorite
Murder and Twitter at My Favor Murder, Goodbye,