December 9, 2024 • 55 mins
Today's episode is from a special live taping at the 2024 Art Basel in Miami. This conversation explores the powerful intersection of art and sports, particularly focusing on the experiences of women in these fields. It highlights the importance of representation, empowerment, and the challenges faced by women artists and athletes. The discussion features insights from notable figures like Mickalene Thomas (Artist) and Napheesa Collier (Unrivaled), emphasizing the need for equity, support, and collaboration in both the art and sports communities.
The panel explores themes of representation, confidence, and the challenges faced by women in male-dominated industries. The discussion highlights the significance of mentorship, community, and the need for women to advocate for their worth in both the art and sports worlds. The speakers share personal stories and insights on navigating their careers while uplifting others in their fields.
Panel Members:
Mickalene Thomas - Artist
Napheesa Collier- Founder and Player Unrivaled Women's Basketball League
Kennedy Yanko - Artist
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast where we live at
the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. Our purpose reveal
the common threads that bind them all.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So what's happening in women's basketball right now is what
we've been trying.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
To get to for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
From the stadiums where athletes break barriers and set records.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Caden Clark broke the all time single game assists record.
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
To the polls where history is written, and now we
have Kamala Harrison, it feels more like women are sort
of taken what they've always deserved, as opposed to waiting
on somebody to give them what they've deserved.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Our discussions will uncover the vital connections between these realms
and the community we create. In each episode, we'll sit
down with athletes, political analysts, and culture critics, because at
the core of it all, how we see one issue
shines the light on all others. Welcome to Naked Sports.
I'm your homes Gary Champion. In my world of sports,
(01:08):
there is this cliche term that suggests athletes want to
be rappers and rappers want to be athletes. In other words,
an athlete is just like any other artists. They want
to express themselves in many different ways. So it athletes
work can become a canvas of expression that is no
different than a painter with a brush. It's just another
(01:30):
way to tell a story. If I think of the
many athletes over the years who have used different forms
of artistic expression, top of mine would be Dionne Sanders
or perhaps Shaquille O'Neil who actually had an lp Go platinum.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
To maintain money on the bridge can't stop the rain.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So their creativity isn't just for applause, It's actually a
very powerful tool for inspiration and change. Art is advocacy,
it's protests, it's inspirational, it's admirable. From Muhammad Ali and
James Baldwin to Gordon Parks and Alvin Armstrong. At the
end of the day, art and sport intersect in such
(02:14):
a beautiful way. So when I was asked by one
of the leading artists of our time, Mkaeleen Thomas, to
participate in Art Arena powered by Woe World of Art
Holdings and partnering with unrivaled a three on three professional
women's basketball league founded by WNBA players NAFISA Collier and
Breonna Stewart. It was a resounding yes for me. It's
(02:38):
an opportunity to highlight change and synergy between women who
are artists and athletes, and I knew this experience would
be invaluable. The Art Arena panel painted its way through
Art Basel, moderated by yours Truly. I hope you enjoy
this candid conversation taped live in Miami at Art Basel
(02:58):
entitled The Art of the Challenge.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
My name is Michichi Guardian.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Thanks you baking, and I'm the CEO and founder of
WOE Work of Art Holdings, a global art and cultural
firm that officially launched today and is powering Art Arena
and the panel today. At WOE, we're focused on directly
investing and growing initiatives that foster living artists, legacies, impact
(03:32):
storytelling and community building placemaking. We believe that centering art
and culture at the intersection of businesses can have a
positive and lasting reaching impact, and today this panel is
a reflection of that ethos. Through the initiative Art Arena,
we champion the idea that artists and athletes can be
(03:52):
true heroes in their community, shaping cultural narratives and inspiring
the next generation, creating a space to explore bold ideas,
creative intersections, and the future of cultural collaboration.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
We're thrilled to have you all here today.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Before we begin, I like to introduce my colleague partner
in crime, as Zolda, our founding chief strategy officer, whose
vision and leadership, together with Michaeleen Thomas and Lindsay Kagawa's
call Us, have been instrumental in shaping the direction of
our arena and the conversation today.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Thanks Michi, Hello, beautiful people. How's everyone doing. We take
your presence very seriously because we know there's a lot
on and poppin' right, so we're really really delighted to
have you all here. Thank you so much, Michi. It's
just such a joy to work with you and to
launch this venture. We've gotten to the point where sometimes
(04:51):
we actually dress alike and finish each other's sentences and
that's only six months in. And again, a huge shout
out to Mikaeleen Thomas and Lindsay Kagawa colas big collaborators
for Art Arena. Super super excited. So Art Arena is
dedicated to fostering creativity, inspiring positive social change, and highlighting
(05:13):
the unique synergies between artists and athletes, women artists and
women athletes in historically male dominated fields. Through distinctive programs
and events, strategic brand partnerships, and impactful social initiatives which
you all will hear about in the coming weeks and months,
arter Aina aims to amplify the voices and profiles of
(05:33):
women leaders across the arts and sports. With that said,
this afternoon, we've brought together an inspiring group of trailblazing artists,
athletes and thought leaders for.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
The art of challenge And why challenge? You say? I
know all of you are wondering.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
We like to think of challenge as a multi layered
concept which includes being challenged, rising to the challenge, facing challenges,
and challenging norms, among many many other meanings. And today
we're thrilled to bring together for all of you a
dynamic discussion around the idea of challenge and more importantly,
the intersection of leadership, creativity and impact with women in
(06:11):
the arts and sports. I want to give a huge
shout out to our partner for this event, unrivaled Whoo,
and you all will hear about unrivaled from one of
our stellar WNBA panelists. It's a new three x three
women's basketball league that's coming soon to Miami, so keep
your eyes peeled. I also want to give a shout
(06:32):
out to the Addition Hotel, our ongoing partner for hosting us.
Thank you edition, Thank you, thank you. And with that,
I'd like to introduce our wonderful Badass We're in the
business of badassery today, moderator and journalist Carrie Champion.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Can we
please give it up for a Zolda Michi.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Thank you both.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Before being able to such a wonderful event the WOLD
team as well as Art Arena. This is something that's
really special and I am truly honored to be here
and I hope you enjoy this conversation. She said badass,
and I'm referring to all of these women on the panel.
Not only are they badasses, supermodels as well. In addition
to doing that as well. First up, I would like
(07:18):
to introduce Kennedy Yanko, Multimedia Artists and sculptor.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Give it up for Kennedy.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Y'all. This is a very interactive panel. We need the
audience to be in call and response with us, Miqueline Thomas,
Ladies and Gentlemen Artists, co advisor, founder of Art Arena, myself,
Carrie Champion, and last but definitely not lease.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Thank you Nofisa Collier.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
She is also co founder of Unrivaled Collaborator with us.
Here today w NBA player defensive Player of the Year
in the WNBA, even though she said she did need
all of that made it to the finals. She told everyone,
I am the best is putting these words in her mouth.
She's an amazing WNBA player. Give it up for Nafisa Kllier.
(08:09):
I love the idea of the synergy between athletes and artists.
I believe everyone is an artist. It's just what platform
you decide to use and how you display your art.
And it looks differently for Noficia Nefisa, I will call
her fee for fee. It is on the court for
these ladies. It is somewhere else where you can purchase
and you can collect. But I am so happy to
(08:30):
talk about the synergy between the two. Within the last year,
I think that you all have been able to notice
that there has been a rise and attention towards the
WNBA and women's sports in general, and so I will
begin with Fee because she did something that's really special,
and I'd like to talk about Unrivaled. You worked with
Brianna Stewart Stewie as we call her, to create a
(08:50):
league for women to play at home so they don't
have to go overseas, and I think that is really special.
So you went from being a player for the WNBA
and employee if you will, to being a boss. Can
you tell everyone about Unrivaled and its goal and what
you'd like to do.
Speaker 6 (09:06):
Thanks you for that really nice introduction. First of all, yeah, Unrivaled.
We started because, as Carrie said, I played in the
w I had played for four seasons at the time.
This has been the works for a couple of years now,
and through that we kind of just saw what works
and what doesn't and we thought like, why not try
to change it ourselves. And one of the biggest things
at the time, and it's even more prevalent now, is
just the rise of women's sports. And it felt like
(09:28):
everyone was benefiting off of that financially except for the
people who were putting the product on the court or
the field or wherever.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
It was.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
So something that we're really proud of is that everyone
and Unrivaled has equity.
Speaker 7 (09:40):
We're really fortunate to be able to.
Speaker 6 (09:42):
Do that, and we really want to grow the wealth
of the women in sports. We offer the highest team
salary in women's sports, which are also really proud of.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
And then thank you, Yeah that's great.
Speaker 7 (09:54):
And then yeah, just allowing.
Speaker 6 (09:55):
People to still get better, to build their brands, which
is really important for athletes and our brand sponsorships, and
to be able to stay in our home country and
to be able to make money doing it. So kind
of through all those things is what we came up
with with Unrivaled. And it starts January seventeenth, so we're
really excited to have all this work finally be starting soon.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
It's here in Miami.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So for people who want to come and watch a game,
how can they get tickets all of those wonderful things
that are here and supporting.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
Yes, you can go to unrival dot com. You can
find tickets there, merch all our teams. We have six
teams of six. It is three on three, but it
was a full court so you still get that back
and forth of traditional basketball when the premise is just
the best athletes in the world going against each other,
so it's going to be great competition, great fan experience.
We have a lot of you know, behind the scenes,
Get Ready with Me podcasts, just a really deep dive
(10:42):
into these athletes lives. So I think it's going to
be really cool for the players, but also for the fans.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I think the beauty of Unrivaled is if you all
have followed any sports in terms of the w a
lot of the women during the offseason go play overseas.
You may have heard of Britney Griner and what happened
with her when she was playing overseas, and this is
a solution for players who are home, who live here,
who want not to be overseas. She has created a
solution to a problem that she saw. So I think
(11:11):
that is beautiful and I congratulate you on what you
are attempting to do with your art as well. When
we return more from our Art Arena panel at Art
Basel in Miami for Back in a Moment.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Welcome Back to Naked Sports.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
We left off with NFISA Collier explaining how Unrivaled, the
new Women's Basketball League, wants to build wealth and legacy
for women in sports. I ask the artist Miqueleen Thomas,
whose work focuses on the many ways to see beautiful
and empowered women, how she feels about the rising interest
and investment in women's art similar to women's sports. McLean Thomas,
(11:58):
I'd like to start with you tell me about what
you've been able to see within the last few years
and the rise of people collecting art that are primarily
focused on women and wanting to be a collector of
women's art.
Speaker 8 (12:12):
I guess for the last two decades probably you can
think about that Historically, Finally women are coming into the
There's been platforms that been created for more women to
be visible. That being said, there's still a lot of
work to be done speaking about equity. There is definitely
(12:34):
a disparity between price points for women in the arts.
And especially from my experience as an artist and what
I'm doing and what I have been doing and sort
of my trajectory where I am today, is that the
challenges that I face, and I would think that many
other artists face that look like me, is the challenge
(12:56):
is really getting financial support, especially when it comes to
museums museum presentations. I have a show that's up right now,
and I can use that as an example, that's touring
mcklean Thomas All about Love.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Some of you've seen it. It started at the road, it's.
Speaker 8 (13:12):
Going to the Barns, and also then it'll you know,
and that it'll go to the Hayward, it'll travel in
Europe and then go to lave Beautoire And I have
to say it's been very challenging to get the financial
support for the show, and it's been very challenging for
my work specifically to show and institutions nationally.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
We approach a lot of galleries and we approach a
lot of museums.
Speaker 8 (13:42):
My galleries approach a lot of museums that have collected
my work. But still today don't feel that the demographic
and some of those spaces are ready to see the work.
And I think that's not the question. The answer is
not that they don't want to see the work. I
don't think they believe that the work is viable to
(14:05):
bring in sort of the audiences.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
But it's proven otherwise.
Speaker 8 (14:09):
If you look at the numbers of the broad and
also the barns of like once they are showing and
these my work is exhibiting these platforms.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
The people show up right.
Speaker 8 (14:22):
There are ticketed events anywhere from thirty to forty dollars,
which is expensive for the demographic of people that I.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Want to see the work.
Speaker 8 (14:33):
So I often have to partner with some brands that
I'm affiliated with or created collaborations within the past, like
the Your Luckily they came on board to support the institutions.
But we're at a point where there are a lot
of patrons that are on these boards and trustees that
(14:56):
are not necessarily sort of really supporting the art are
the artists. Oftentimes the artists are having to for themselves
by raising funds. I have raised a lot of money
for my exhibition by creating artworks prints for donations. We're
also having to perform and do a lot of other
(15:18):
things within the business aspect that takes us out of
the creativity.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
So I still think we have a lot to do
when it comes to.
Speaker 8 (15:27):
The artists being creatives and not necessarily it's a business.
But what's happening now and if we're also having to
raise money for our own exhibitions, which is a challenging
and I don't necessarily see that with my white male counterparts.
Maybe it is happening, but I'm not in experience in conversation.
I sit on boards and I don't necessarily see those
(15:50):
conversations happening when it comes to white male artists.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
I experience it for myself as.
Speaker 8 (15:55):
A black, queer woman artist that I'm still having to
aid the funds for these for my exhibitions to even
take shape.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
It's called the art of the challenge for a reason.
And you mentioned a word challenge several times. And when
you when you think of how far, as you pointed
out two decades, you've come, or women have come in
terms of art, you want to see more equity when
it comes to funding. That's one of the main things.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Whether you find your equity, I want to see just support.
Speaker 8 (16:26):
Yeah, it is anything comes down to numbers, right, It's
always financial. It's a business, right, It's a business on
both ends. But more the support of we can do this,
not where it is onerous to the artists to make
sort of to have these decisions made, like where I'm
cultivating or even engaging with collectors or engaging with my
(16:51):
supporters and making phone calls and nudging my galleries, like
I want to see the museums coming to me and say, hey,
this is our budget.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
You know, we are going to raise money.
Speaker 8 (17:03):
We are reaching out, not where they're presenting at the table.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Mckelean, what can you do for us to have this
exhibition of your work here?
Speaker 8 (17:14):
Because that's often what I hear is that I have
to be the one in the driving seat to allow
and make my exhibitions come to fruition.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I feel as if that's a shared experience I think
you can relate to. Trying to find the fund or
equity pay issue is a huge issue for the WNBA,
which is why you created Unrivaled And I'm curious, Kennedy,
can you share with us your experience. Yes, we've come
a long way, but there's still so much more to do. Hi, everybody,
(17:46):
thank you by Kennedy.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Hello.
Speaker 9 (17:48):
Well, I mean, you know, I was really lucky to
be put on by McLean Thomas. So all the work
that she's done has made my life and my work
easier and I will like to continue to support and
pay that forward to other artists and Derek Adams as well.
These are very important artists to me, and I think
in our community, you know, we have a lot, we
have great mentorship and that's been really incredible for me.
(18:11):
But you know, McK lean said a word performance, which
I feel is such a big demand on women, on artists, on.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Anyone trying to do anything.
Speaker 9 (18:20):
And I think for me, you know, I have I
came into I was I was the painter my whole life.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
So I've been working since I was really young.
Speaker 9 (18:30):
And I went to the San Francisco Garden Stute for
a year and I dropped out of school.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
It was very expensive to go to art school.
Speaker 9 (18:36):
And after I left, I ended up living at this
place called the Living Theater, which was an anarchist, pacifist
experimental theater company in the Lower East Side, and that
was where I learned what an artist was, or what
being an artist was, or what living as an artist is.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
And this woman who was.
Speaker 9 (18:52):
The director of the theater, which started in nineteen forty seven,
was just absolutely brilliant. Every single month, you know, she
was on the phone begging for her rent, trying to
figure out how to pay her rent. And I think that,
you know, it's really important that we not only show
up for you know, buying the art, but like, what
are the things around that feed and nourish the practice
(19:14):
and the collective.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
And my work is nourished.
Speaker 9 (19:17):
By my life experience and traveling and seeing the world
and meeting new people. And you know, I have a
background in chigong and yoga, and so those physical austerities
were really always grounding tools for me and my work
and living and being in the world. And I think,
you know, when I think about the idea of athletics
(19:37):
and sports and determination and focus and discipline, one of
the biggest things that comes up for me is what happens.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
When you know you're.
Speaker 9 (19:47):
When you have to, when your mind is the only
thing that you have left that where that is like
the last place where it's like your body's done, you're exhausted,
you've nothing left, and you have to keep going, and
you find that inside your mind and that's the to
move forward. So I think as far as challenge for
me goes is that, you know, I've always kind of
written on the outside of the system.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
I dropped out of school. I don't have a BFA,
I don't have an MFA.
Speaker 9 (20:10):
I've just now been represented for the first time ever
as of the last six months, and thank you. But
I don't think representation is the hard part. I think
it's building around that. You know, I've had to build
everything for myself and all the opportunities that I've had,
I've created, and that took a lot of hustle and
(20:30):
challenge and performance.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
And I think at this point.
Speaker 9 (20:34):
You know, we've never had as many women in boardrooms
or as many CEOs, or as many women working for
each other and supporting each other and celebrating each other,
which is amazing.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
You know, we're all here together doing this.
Speaker 9 (20:46):
So I think that's a big reason why we're actually
seeing more matrionage and more.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Collectives of women pulling money together. The Sport Project.
Speaker 9 (20:55):
What was the name of that group that was meeting
here last year, the Women the Aarchilles what was it from.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
The new museum is Artemis.
Speaker 9 (21:04):
Yeah, Artemis a great example of women coming together and
pulling money together to do a show.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
So yeah, I'm yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
The idea everything that you're saying, it sounds very familiar,
and I'm sure to you as wealthy, it sounds extremely
familiar in terms of the idea of being able to
find funding, to be celebrated, not only celebrated, but rewarded
for your art in what you do, Kennedy, you said something,
what do you do when all you have is your mind?
(21:36):
And that to me I think is a shared experience.
All you have is your mind.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Fie.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I said to you this past season was great, and
you said, the only difference was your mind. When you
hear them share their experiences and how they want to
be able to have a world in which they are
rewarded not only financially but also celebrated, how does that
relate to you? What is the challenge for you?
Speaker 7 (21:58):
I mean, it relates so much.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
I feel like all women in every field has that
same challenge, And for us specifically, it looks like we
have our new collective bargaining agreement coming up, so we
are trying to be at the table with what the
men have been, you know, obviously not asking for the
same salaries, but just the same cut of the pie,
like the same rev share that they're getting. And so
it's been a fight for us too. We just finished
(22:20):
our twenty seventh season and we're just now having these
conversations where we actually have leverage at all to be
able to do it. And so I think in our
sports specifically, and with you guys, as I've heard you say,
there's just been an explosion the past couple of years
where we are at the table now and it feels
like we're more in the driving seat. So it just
feels like so empowering to be surrounded by such powerful
(22:42):
women where you don't feel like you're crazy to be
able to ask for these things that you shouldn't feel
crazy to ask for.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Childcare, yeah, childcare, sure.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
An equal cut for things like equal pay, that seems
like something that should be natural, but you feel crazy
for asking because the people around you make you feel
that way. And so again, it's just so empowering to
be For me, specifically, when I came to the w
surrounded by one hundred and forty four women who my
second year in the WNBA, it was COVID and we
like the social justice push that we made that year.
(23:13):
I've never seen or been a part of anything like
that to that point in my life, and so I
think it's just like, slowly these things are building me
into becoming like a businesswoman today. And again, I just
it just makes me reflect on how thankful I am
to be in a position where I can have these
conversations with people from different backgrounds but we're still reaching
for the same type of goals.
Speaker 7 (23:33):
So yeah, it's just it's been an amazing experience.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
As an advisor for the art arena, McLean, What do
you think in terms of what you are trying to
do with the art arena? What do you want to see?
What in a world that is perfect, where we are
celebrating artists from all different backgrounds, but primarily artists who
are not who are not marginalized, who have been marginalized,
what would you like to see?
Speaker 8 (23:56):
There's a lot I want to see. I mean, that's
a really big quest question. It's a very good question.
And I think initially when I think about the impetus
in my mind for why Arterina exists, it was really
for my daughter, and mainly because you know, she's like
very charismatic, outgoing, but expressive and verbal, but also very
(24:23):
introverted at the same time. And I noticed at one
point when she was about ten years old, she's the
tallest in her class.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Right, She's very.
Speaker 8 (24:33):
Tall for ten and me, being a tall woman and
a tall kid, I was always the tallest in my class.
But I also had a very tall mother. My mother
was six ' one and loved her height, so she
always made me proud of my height, and so me
being a mother, really wanted to make my daughter very
(24:55):
proud of her body that she's growing in, you know,
be best in body.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
They're awkward and weird.
Speaker 8 (25:02):
They're trying to like discover and understand all the changes
that they're going through chemically. And so the only thing
that I knew was to go to sports, right, the
only thing I knew as a representation instead of me
being the person having to tell us to tell her
because oftentimes you can tell your child something over and
(25:25):
over again and they don't necessarily hear it. It watches
over them, they don't care, but as soon as they
see it or someone else says it, it makes sense
to them. And so being I live in Fort Green,
it is the Barkley Stadium, is there, the liberty it
was before it became like the sort of rage of
(25:46):
the WNBA, And I thought, okay, why don't I just
introduce my daughters to sports?
Speaker 3 (25:51):
I was.
Speaker 8 (25:51):
I thought, well, maybe she will be a basketball player,
maybe she'll be interested in basketball.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
She wasn't. She tried out for She's like, no, this
is not for me.
Speaker 8 (26:00):
She's really interested in volleyball, which is good because I
was the sport that I played. I played volleyball, and
I did track and field and cross country throughout my
elementary and high school and first years of college. So
when I took my daughter to her first game at
the WNBA at the Berkley Stadium. When I took her
to the first game and she saw all of these
(26:23):
tall women, the look on her face was like, they
look like me.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I look like them. She can now.
Speaker 8 (26:32):
It was this mirror image, And to me, that was
very profound of what is needed for young girls, for
them to see themselves and others. And so for me,
what that gave me, what that gave her was an outlet,
a way of connecting even if it's not it's.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Regardless that it's a sport she's interested in.
Speaker 8 (26:55):
It's she seeing women and athleticism, women doing something professional,
that they love a skill, and that they're proud of
who they are. That she can recognize that. And so
me recognizing that she was experienced this, I really wanted
to find a way for me to engage more with
(27:18):
women in sports. And so through my conversation with a
collective that I that I know and Portland, Oregon, John Goodman,
I was talking to him about how I could be
a little more involved with women and WBA, and he
introduced me to Linda k Gawa Collis, and she and
(27:38):
I started having these conversations of how we can intersect
and merge. Just basically, I just wanted to have conversation
and a platform for artists who think about the mind.
You know, like art is very physical and it's also
very siloed, but we also have to there's this vulnerable
(28:01):
sort of state where you have to That performative is
the spaces that we sort of put our art out
in the world, right, So I wanted to just create
this form or a space where we can engage with
others from different areas about their similar experiences. And I
(28:26):
knew that the WNBA was on this sort of this rise.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
It was something that's happened. You can feel it. There
was this synergy, this energy throughout, and so I just
really wanted to be in conversation with women in sports
and like what they've been going through and their challenges
to see if there was some similarity that we can
find this bridge of commonality that we can.
Speaker 8 (28:54):
Sort of create a movement together, right, that it doesn't
have to be these separate things entities, that maybe there's
this converge and intersection of ideas with women in the
arts with women in sports and that through this platform,
and then you know, having conversations with Linda.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Sorry, Lindsay, excuse me, excuse me, Lindsay.
Speaker 8 (29:19):
I talked to Zoda about it, and once I Zoda
got in, we started having really big ideas and it
started getting formulated, and then you know, Mitchie and we
all came about creating Art Arena as the new platform.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
But for me, what do I want from it? I
just want a.
Speaker 8 (29:42):
Space where we feel safe and comfortable, where ideas can
be cultivated, where it's an incubator of just community and
just innovation and support system, and that it's an umbrella
for how brands and sort of collaborations can manifest for
(30:08):
women in the arts and sports. And perhaps there's a
way where Pie and Kennedy can come up with something
that is collective, that can be put out in the
world that then exists that young girls could sort of
attached to whatever that thing is that they can hold
(30:29):
as their own and have on the wall in their
bedroom to sort of understand that there's something that this
artist and this athlete has come together and create something.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Whatever that is.
Speaker 8 (30:42):
It can be an object, it can be an experience,
that then they have something.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
To aspire to.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I love the idea that your daughter saw herself when
she went.
Speaker 8 (30:57):
It's really hard to described when you can when you
have a child who I remember her seeing Stewie and
was like, she's tall, like and she's She's like, she's
tall like me.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I was like, no, she's taller.
Speaker 8 (31:13):
But the fact that she seeing Stewie and then when
she met Stewie and pictures were it was everything for her,
and then getting a jersey and all of that, it
was she stood up differently, She woke up different the
next day, she felt round it. She felt like, Okay,
I'm a tall girl, and she no longer went to
school feeling like shy about being the tallest girl in
(31:36):
her class. She was like I saw her slouching a
lot and doing all these things. She she was standing
upright and like feeling good about herself, feeling good in
her own foundation hills.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
And so for me, it's that sort of.
Speaker 8 (31:51):
Essence that is sometimes undescribable that you can sort of.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Provide for.
Speaker 8 (32:01):
A young person that allows them to change their outlook
on themselves self esteem, And I think that's what it is.
I think in the bigger picture, is the confidence.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I don't know if anyone plays sports here, and I
don't want to make it seem like it's just an
inside basketball conversation, But what McLane describes is what so
many of us who didn't play sports, or who wanted
to play sports, You find yourself when in a community
of women who look like you, think like you, who
have the same ideas. You're not necessarily the same goals,
(32:35):
but the same ideas and the idea of art arena
coming together giving a home for women who want to
ultimately have equity, who want to be able, to be
seen and celebrated is something that is special. Does that
conversation that what she just said, does that resonate for you?
But because he also has a daughter who just turned
I think two, maybe turning three, two and a half,
(32:56):
so you understand what it feels like to perhaps have
a tall child on your hands, a tall little girl
on your hands.
Speaker 7 (33:02):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 6 (33:04):
I was just like, I couldn't stop smiling when you
were talking about that story because I did not have
a tall mom, and I was always the tallest, and
so sports really helped me gain my confidence because I
was surrounded by people that look like me, and so
the fact that she found that through basketball is really
like such a huge important thing to me because I
love kids, and especially now I have a daughter, I
think about that constantly. I'm like, she's already in the
(33:26):
ninety ninth percentile, she's taller than three year olds. I'm like,
you know how hard it is as a kid. And
that's why it was really important for me to have
kids while I was still playing, so they could be
surrounded by really strong people who are secure in themselves,
so they could grow up in that environment because I
didn't feel like I grew up that way. So it's
just like it it kind of validates like everything that
(33:46):
you were hoping for, like through your story. So that
was really special. So yeah, it just kind of made
me feel warm and fuzzy hearing that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, I agree, we all felt that way, Kennedy when
when they talk when we talk about art arena, you
understand the idea of what it is, but there also
is the challenge and you look at where you are
now when you first started, when you very when you
first started, and you said, Michelean put you on right,
I mean you should, I mean I did.
Speaker 8 (34:12):
I mean I was introduced to Kennedy by Derek Adams.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
She's like, give me the mic. I mean, I will.
I'm not no, I was introduced to you by Derek Adams.
But to me, it's always about the.
Speaker 8 (34:25):
Work, you know what I mean, and the work ethic
and the talent and all of that. To me, it's like,
I don't really I'm not really interested in working with
artists that don't put the work in.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
And you know what I mean.
Speaker 9 (34:40):
And I saw that you saw me, and you saw
me jump out to your truck, and You're like, this
bitch is crazy.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Yeah you are, but but what's going on?
Speaker 8 (34:48):
All artists are who I mean, you were crazy to
be doing and a radical thing to be and you
have always been you know, you shown me the way
to be and exist and shown me how to live
as an artist. And I think the word that I
hear kind of streamlining through all of this is confirmation.
And there's nothing like having someone confirm something that felt like,
am I crazy?
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Is this okay?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Like?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Can I do it this way? And I was?
Speaker 9 (35:11):
And I always I'm always doing things differently and I'm
always doing things on the edge. And unfortunately for me,
I feel very comfortable in that state of rebellion, you know,
but it's really really wonderful to have people that you
can look at. But what was the question you were
to ask me about from when I was beginning.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Oh, yes, sharing the mic, guys, this is what we do.
We share the mic. It's about a community.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
It's community here and confirmation. I just as you listen
to this story and the work, confirmation is actually apropos.
So let's focus on that when you think about what
you've been able to do and the world ahead and
what you want to be as an artist or what
you would like to envision for artists who are coming
behind you, as how mchaeleen opened the door, helped you,
or whatever word she'd like to use for it. What
(35:56):
would you like to see Because we've been talking about challenge,
but what about that confirmation?
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (36:01):
I mean, well, so when Micklean and I met, you know,
i'd been working for fifteen years already at that point,
so I had been working for a while. And again,
you know, having access to the network, having access to money,
having access to getting people in front of your works,
it is a hustle that takes you out of your
practice and it takes you out of your art mind
(36:21):
and out of your you know, one of the things
that I really believe in in the creative process in
making is that the best ideas come when one is held,
when your body is at rest, when you are clear,
when your room is clean. It's so much easier to
be able to receive. And if you can stay in
that process and stay in that work, the work just
(36:42):
gets better and fuller and over time no matter what
it happens. I think for me as an artist, and
what I'm so excited about seeing the artists that are
a generation ahead of me is that every single one
of them that has been offered equity has made space
for other artists and for great ideas. And so, you know,
I have sculpture practice, so I work very very large
(37:03):
and the logistics and the statistics about just literally moving
those things from place to place as an entire job
in itself.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
So I really enjoy building teams. It's something that I
love to do. I love to watch people blossom.
Speaker 9 (37:16):
I love to watch, you know, people grow and learn
and facilitate environments for cultivation in that way. So I've
got some fun projects that I'm working on, But I
really do believe that it's important for artists to talk
about money and for artists to understand business and to
understand how to navigate in that space. For a really
long time, and I'd really say, even just a couple
(37:36):
of years ago, it was so inappropriate to have that conversation.
And it's so not okay for artists becoming and graduating
from the MFA programs two hundred thousand dollars in debt
and none of them have work, and none of them
know how to promote themselves or how to talk about
their work.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
And you know, another great.
Speaker 9 (37:54):
Program that you guys made was the Arts at pret
the Art for pret Forward, where they were teaching business
management to artists and how to handle their selves. And
you know, as women negotiating in spaces, having to sit
strong and sit and not blink when you say that number,
you know, it's really important to understand that and also
to recognize when you're being taken advantage of.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
I'm so triggered.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
I'm just trying to no it is, but I don't blink.
Speaker 7 (38:21):
Say your number power hard.
Speaker 9 (38:23):
But really it's it's about don't question, don't don't question.
But I mean, I really I think it's a certain
kind of restraint in understanding like.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
What am I going to perform and if I am.
Speaker 9 (38:35):
Like I'm only going to give it this much energy,
you know, and like really like for me at this point,
like I'm really trying to to hold on to the
values of my life and my person and the legacy
that I would like to be a part of and
to to offer my time and my attention to. But
I'm really excited about the future. I mean, I I
don't think artists have ever had as much power, as
(38:59):
much capability, as much access as we do right now.
We have direct relationships with our audience, and it's a
really beautiful and special time for us. And the space
that the generation before has made in their mentorship, in
the programs like Art Arena that are being created. I mean,
it's just it's gonna blow the doors open. So I'm
really excited about that. To that end, we yes, please
(39:20):
clam for that. Don't blink, ladies, say your number.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Don't blink.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Naked Sports back in a moment. Welcome back to Naked Sports.
We appreciate you listening to our live taped episode from
Art Basel in Miami. I've asked panelist, multimedia artists and sculptor,
(39:49):
Kennedy Anko, artist and creative director, Mikaeline Thomas, w NBA
star and co founder of Unrivaled, the New Women's Basketball
League nafi's the Collier to talk about equity and the
value they have in a male dominated industry. We had
this conversation earlier and I'd like to strut with you,
but I would like you all to answer, there comes
(40:11):
a time in your life, no matter what you do,
but there comes a time in your life when you
are asking to be seen. And then once you're seen,
you have proven yourself, and then you become an entity,
You become a business, You become the person putting other
people on. As you described, what is that dynamic like
for you in the art world, specifically when you no
longer and not that I can say no longer, but
(40:31):
let me use this in broad terms.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
When you no longer say hey, please see me, you
say now pay me.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Now it's pay me, don't see me, but pay me
because I am who I am and I am proven.
How does that dynamic change? And is it uncomfortable for you?
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Very uncomfortable?
Speaker 9 (40:50):
Well, I mean I think that the word restraint is
really a big word around that, you know, it's like
understanding my time management where I'm going. But I think
in general, you know, fame is allowing yourself to be
seen by people and accepting that and being able to
be in your light and to be in your shine
and have people look at you while you do that,
(41:12):
and that.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Is very uncomfortable.
Speaker 9 (41:14):
And I think for so much of my life as
an artist, you know, when I first started entering the
fine art market, like I people would just look through me,
you know, and I shaved my head, I stopped wearing makeup,
and then people actually started listening what I was saying.
And I think for a very long time, I mean,
the art world is a very discreet place.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
It's very private. I think it's very new for artists
to be working with brands. You know.
Speaker 9 (41:37):
Micklean was at the forefront of making opening that those
doors for us and making it okay and acceptable.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
And I really do think.
Speaker 9 (41:45):
That it's there's there's a whole new world that's opening
up to the art, to the art and to fine
art that really wasn't.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Allowed before in a way.
Speaker 9 (41:55):
But I also do think that there's a responsibility with that,
you know, I think there's a responsibility when you are
being looked at by a lot of people. Not to
put pressure on myself or anyone else, but to take
stride in that space that this is.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
But but I have to really.
Speaker 9 (42:10):
Hone in on myself as an artist. I have mentors
who are monks in the studio. I mean, they're laboring
eighteen hours a day, They're working in a different way,
and I wanted to be just like them, you know,
But I realized, like, oh, but that's not who I am.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
I'm a different kind of artist. I work in a
different way. I have different talents, different skill sets, you know.
Speaker 9 (42:27):
So for me, it was really about and it is
about refining and continuing to really understand I don't want
to say persona, but I think you do become a
persona in a way where it's like, these are probably
some things about you that are just exact like bigger,
you know.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
And so for me it's like what's easy for me?
Speaker 9 (42:44):
And how how do I make that part of myself
that's lighted available and then to share that in some way.
But I think for a long time it was I
really did struggle with not with plumbing my shoulders or
standing smaller or trying to make other people feel comfortable,
and I think for me just like kind of getting
to the other side of that has not only allowed
(43:04):
me to feel better in myself but allowed me to
share in a much greater way by allowing myself to
be seen in my light.
Speaker 8 (43:14):
What do you think it shipped for you that sort
of transition or transformation from not be it in your
light or you are in the light, but you see
yourself in the light.
Speaker 9 (43:27):
I think a lot of the times people would always
be like, well, don't be bigger than your work, like,
don't be bigger than your art. And for me, I
was like, all right, fine, but like let me, let
let me make my art real.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Good, so y'all can sit down.
Speaker 9 (43:40):
But I think the last couple of years, you know,
the Rebel residency gave me a lot of confidence and artists,
not only to the kind of visibility that came from that,
but to be able to flex at scale, to be
able to work at scale for the first time, to
know that that thing was inside of me and then
to be able to let it out was so big
and also just coming into my woman too. You know,
(44:01):
I was in the basement in Brooklyn for fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
You know you're in there.
Speaker 9 (44:05):
You look a certain way, you live a certain way.
Having a little bit of money helps, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Well a cat, little shrip, little designer here and there.
Speaker 9 (44:13):
But yeah, I mean I think coming into my art,
I think my art developing and getting better and being
seen and being heard allowed me to take that space.
And I'm still, you know, still figuring that out every day,
you know, And it's I think.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
It's I don't think it stops.
Speaker 8 (44:29):
I think it's always a journey and sort of I
look at life and you know, like myself, just it
comes in different phases and chapters, you know, you know,
just as you evolve, you know, like you said, coming
into your womanhood. You know, like twenty years ago, I
was a different type of person and artist that I
(44:49):
was than I am today.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
And so would you evolve?
Speaker 8 (44:54):
You know, you hope that everything else around you, your
environment shifts accordingly.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
You know, It's like it's shifted at the same time.
Speaker 8 (45:04):
And I think that's when it becomes really incredible.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
But you're able for you know, like especially for me, I.
Speaker 8 (45:12):
Get a lot of my inspiration and satisfaction helping others.
It's really important for me to always provide platforms for
other artists and other opportunities and spaces and cultivate that.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
I like to think of myself often.
Speaker 8 (45:31):
I always say that I'm a conduit of culture, and
I think as athletes and artists, we are conduit to culture.
We are the ones who take risks, we're the most vulnerable.
We put ourselves out there, we are become very vocal,
whether we sort of articulate that creatively or physically right
(45:53):
that we are on sort of this visual platform that's
always scrutinized in question. So I think that lends itself
to a great opportunity to create change, to shift sort
of perception of how you're being seen.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
And when you have that opportunity to not.
Speaker 8 (46:14):
Necessarily wait until you made it, Like I didn't understand
when a lot of people say, well, I'm when I
get to a certain place, then I'm going to do
something right. And for me, I always found it very
rewarding to do it as I'm moving forward right because
I never wanted to be at the table by myself.
(46:36):
That's boring. That's a conversation that I don't want to have.
I don't I want to look at the table and
see others and see my friends with me, right, so
that we are in a conversation, So that becomes my anchor. Right,
that environment, that community becomes my support system. So that way,
if I do fall, I have a real strong safety
(46:59):
net all back on because we are all at that
table together and seated by yourself and it just doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
It's not going.
Speaker 8 (47:08):
You know, we've all done, We've all sort of persevered, and.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
I've got here by a lot of hard.
Speaker 8 (47:14):
Work and efforts on my own. But I also got
here because there are people who opened the doors for me.
There are people who also had conversations with others or
talked about my work to others. Like my first exhibition
last night, we were here celebrating Derek Adams, and Ronal
Hoffman was here right. Ronal Hoffman is a galleries who've
(47:38):
been in sort of the art world industry, creating space
for many, many types of artists. It was my first
gallery in Chicago. But I would not have gone to
that gallery if it wasn't for another artist, Handy Wiley, right,
who basically told Rona Hoffman you must see her work.
(48:03):
I must bring you to see her to her studio.
And then my second gallery came through another artist what
gauged you move to for Suzanne Wilmeters in Los Angeles.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
So for me, what I'm stating is.
Speaker 8 (48:18):
That you do the hard work, but you hope that
your peers also see you doing the hard work and
that they're the ones in conversation that is why need
your net, that they're providing that space for you, because
that is how things really get changed, because you're doing
it as a collective endeavor.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
And so all of the.
Speaker 8 (48:40):
Things that I set out to do when I started.
You mentioned Pratt Forward as a space for postgraduates and
emerging artists is a professional development program that I initiated
with Pratt Institute as a way because I started really
(49:01):
seeing and looking around and understanding that artists were becoming
very successful because the industry was really growing in a
way for them to make lots of money early in
their career. But what they weren't being successful was maintaining
(49:22):
and sustainability. And so what was happening a lot of
them were failing at the business side of it, and
that was interfering with their creative practices and where they
would get to a point where they did not want
to continue making art or continue their careers because it was,
(49:43):
you know, this sort of collapse, and so creating the
space of professional development with art world leaders became very
important so that they could really understand just some of
the nuance, just like within their own studio practice that
business of uh, you know, running your studio, having studio assistance,
(50:04):
like all of these becoming an entity, what type of
entity you become?
Speaker 3 (50:09):
So these spaces are important, similar to.
Speaker 8 (50:12):
Our arena that we not only have professional development, but
we also have a larger community of endye with a confirmation,
which to me is a sense of validation, a sense
of validation of acknowledging the artist.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I was going to ask you, but you answered the
question why is it so important for you to put
other artists on?
Speaker 3 (50:33):
But you said it.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
You don't want to be at the table by yourself.
But not only that, you want to teach. You want
to teach them the business aspect of it, because that's
what happens as opposed to losing the great artist. And
anyone who knows you knows that she will be an
advocate for you, loud and proud. So a friend of
mquean is a friend of everyone's right. Thank you so much.
Sometimes not everybody. I'm very selective. I want to In short,
(50:56):
she's not talking to anybody in the room after we leave.
No kidding, I care, I'm joking. I do want to say, state,
we have to go. I did get a five minute
wrap ten minutes ago. Fee have my bag. She's like
five minutes. We're I mean when I tell you we
are bonded up here, we're sharing the mics, we love
one another. I don't want us to forget what Kennedy
said flex for scale. I'm taking that with me. Don't blink.
(51:19):
Say your number, ladies, and don't blink, just like I
was thinking this. I was thinking this, and slide them
the envelope and then just leave right here. And also, Fee,
I want to. In the same vein in which McLean
just discussed how she wants to keep artists in the
world and teach them the business aspect, I think what
you're doing for athletes, female athletes more specifically is special.
(51:43):
There has been this world that says, yes, please give
it up. This idea that we can ask for healthcare,
we can ask for childcare, all of the things that
you feel embarrassed to ask for, and Kennedy said it
do you think I'm crazy asking for a childcare? Is
this am I asking for too much? Just the basics?
(52:05):
Is that too much? And I think that's something an
imprint that a lot of women wear in all industries.
So creating Unrivaled for women so they don't have to
travel overseas and they can be at home with their
family and they can start a life for themselves where
they can actually live and not have a roommate. Remember
she said she was in a basement. Most I hear
WNBA players tell me all the time, I have a
roommate and I'd like to live on my own as
(52:27):
a grown adult. So thank you for what you are doing.
And I didn't know if you wanted to add anything
about Unrivaled or what the future looks like for you
in your world as we.
Speaker 7 (52:36):
Rap, I mean, not about Unrivaled unless you know.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (52:40):
I think I explained in the beginning, but just I
think the idea of it. I'm just so excited just
from what everyone spoke about today. Again, we're traveling in
different lanes, but we're trying to head to the same place,
and that is really what the vision was with Unrivaled,
Just giving people an opportunity to create their art, which
is ours is on the court, and be able to
profit off of that and to create generational wealth is
(53:02):
our ultimate.
Speaker 7 (53:03):
Goal for these women's, for these women players.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
We want the same contracts. I want a four year,
two hundred million dollar contract.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
Is that possible.
Speaker 7 (53:11):
It's in the works, right, Okay, If they're.
Speaker 3 (53:13):
Doing it in the NBA, can we do it in
the WNBA.
Speaker 7 (53:15):
We're in the works. We're gonna get there.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
Uh yeah.
Speaker 6 (53:19):
Again, just like so like humbled and thankful to be
with you guys, And I just feel like I relate
to what you're saying so much. Again, our art might
present differently, but what we feel is so similar. And
so I think it's so powerful that you have so
many women traveling in the same direction no matter what
field we're on.
Speaker 3 (53:35):
And that's what I'm trying to do in my field, That's.
Speaker 6 (53:36):
What you're doing in yours, That's what you guys are
doing in yours, And so it's really cool to come
together with this in so many different arenas, but yet
we're so similar in our same thing, where we're heading
in the same direction through art.
Speaker 3 (53:46):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
That's why it's odd arena art arena ladies and gentlemen,
please give it up.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
You want to add something, Oh, I.
Speaker 8 (53:52):
Just wanted to say it's all the touched on it
earlier to say thank you all for coming out because
it is a big week and bity of you have
other options and really appreciate you showing up here for
this conversation. And I don't know, just thank you, thank
you for being here.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Thank you all for being here. Mi chi A Zelda,
thank you both. I appreciate you, Woe Otto, Ana Lindsey,
thank you, Nafisa Collier, Mikaelin Thomas and Kennedy Yanko. Please
give it up for these ladies. I'm Carrie Champion. We
are grateful that you came out. Ja. We really truly
(54:30):
appreciate you all for listening to our show on the road.
The conversation was the art of the challenge. I hope
you feel inspired and or activated to do something that
tells your story through an artistic expression. Again, I appreciate
you listening and I'll talk to you all next week.
Naked Sports written and executive produced by me Carry Champion,
(54:53):
produced by Jock VI's Thomas sound Design, and mastered by
Dwayne Crawford associate producer Olubusayl. Shabby Naked Sports is a
part of the Black Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia
Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast where we live at
the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. Our purpose reveal
the common threads that bind them all.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So what's happening in women's basketball right now is what
we've been trying.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
To get to for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
From the stadiums where athletes break barriers and set records.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Caden Clark broke the all time single game assists record.
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
To the polls where history is written, and now we
have Kamala Harrison, it feels more like women are sort
of taken what they've always deserved, as opposed to waiting
on somebody to give them what they've deserved.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Our discussions will uncover the vital connections between these realms
and the community we create. In each episode, we'll sit
down with athletes, political analysts, and culture critics, because at
the core of it all, how we see one issue
shines the light on all others. Welcome to Naked Sports.
I'm your homes Gary Champion. In my world of sports,
(01:08):
there is this cliche term that suggests athletes want to
be rappers and rappers want to be athletes. In other words,
an athlete is just like any other artists. They want
to express themselves in many different ways. So it athletes
work can become a canvas of expression that is no
different than a painter with a brush. It's just another
(01:30):
way to tell a story. If I think of the
many athletes over the years who have used different forms
of artistic expression, top of mine would be Dionne Sanders
or perhaps Shaquille O'Neil who actually had an lp Go platinum.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
To maintain money on the bridge can't stop the rain.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So their creativity isn't just for applause, It's actually a
very powerful tool for inspiration and change. Art is advocacy,
it's protests, it's inspirational, it's admirable. From Muhammad Ali and
James Baldwin to Gordon Parks and Alvin Armstrong. At the
end of the day, art and sport intersect in such
(02:14):
a beautiful way. So when I was asked by one
of the leading artists of our time, Mkaeleen Thomas, to
participate in Art Arena powered by Woe World of Art
Holdings and partnering with unrivaled a three on three professional
women's basketball league founded by WNBA players NAFISA Collier and
Breonna Stewart. It was a resounding yes for me. It's
(02:38):
an opportunity to highlight change and synergy between women who
are artists and athletes, and I knew this experience would
be invaluable. The Art Arena panel painted its way through
Art Basel, moderated by yours Truly. I hope you enjoy
this candid conversation taped live in Miami at Art Basel
(02:58):
entitled The Art of the Challenge.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
My name is Michichi Guardian.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Thanks you baking, and I'm the CEO and founder of
WOE Work of Art Holdings, a global art and cultural
firm that officially launched today and is powering Art Arena
and the panel today. At WOE, we're focused on directly
investing and growing initiatives that foster living artists, legacies, impact
(03:32):
storytelling and community building placemaking. We believe that centering art
and culture at the intersection of businesses can have a
positive and lasting reaching impact, and today this panel is
a reflection of that ethos. Through the initiative Art Arena,
we champion the idea that artists and athletes can be
(03:52):
true heroes in their community, shaping cultural narratives and inspiring
the next generation, creating a space to explore bold ideas,
creative intersections, and the future of cultural collaboration.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
We're thrilled to have you all here today.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Before we begin, I like to introduce my colleague partner
in crime, as Zolda, our founding chief strategy officer, whose
vision and leadership, together with Michaeleen Thomas and Lindsay Kagawa's
call Us, have been instrumental in shaping the direction of
our arena and the conversation today.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Thanks Michi, Hello, beautiful people. How's everyone doing. We take
your presence very seriously because we know there's a lot
on and poppin' right, so we're really really delighted to
have you all here. Thank you so much, Michi. It's
just such a joy to work with you and to
launch this venture. We've gotten to the point where sometimes
(04:51):
we actually dress alike and finish each other's sentences and
that's only six months in. And again, a huge shout
out to Mikaeleen Thomas and Lindsay Kagawa colas big collaborators
for Art Arena. Super super excited. So Art Arena is
dedicated to fostering creativity, inspiring positive social change, and highlighting
(05:13):
the unique synergies between artists and athletes, women artists and
women athletes in historically male dominated fields. Through distinctive programs
and events, strategic brand partnerships, and impactful social initiatives which
you all will hear about in the coming weeks and months,
arter Aina aims to amplify the voices and profiles of
(05:33):
women leaders across the arts and sports. With that said,
this afternoon, we've brought together an inspiring group of trailblazing artists,
athletes and thought leaders for.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
The art of challenge And why challenge? You say? I
know all of you are wondering.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
We like to think of challenge as a multi layered
concept which includes being challenged, rising to the challenge, facing challenges,
and challenging norms, among many many other meanings. And today
we're thrilled to bring together for all of you a
dynamic discussion around the idea of challenge and more importantly,
the intersection of leadership, creativity and impact with women in
(06:11):
the arts and sports. I want to give a huge
shout out to our partner for this event, unrivaled Whoo,
and you all will hear about unrivaled from one of
our stellar WNBA panelists. It's a new three x three
women's basketball league that's coming soon to Miami, so keep
your eyes peeled. I also want to give a shout
(06:32):
out to the Addition Hotel, our ongoing partner for hosting us.
Thank you edition, Thank you, thank you. And with that,
I'd like to introduce our wonderful Badass We're in the
business of badassery today, moderator and journalist Carrie Champion.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Can we
please give it up for a Zolda Michi.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Thank you both.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Before being able to such a wonderful event the WOLD
team as well as Art Arena. This is something that's
really special and I am truly honored to be here
and I hope you enjoy this conversation. She said badass,
and I'm referring to all of these women on the panel.
Not only are they badasses, supermodels as well. In addition
to doing that as well. First up, I would like
(07:18):
to introduce Kennedy Yanko, Multimedia Artists and sculptor.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Give it up for Kennedy.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Y'all. This is a very interactive panel. We need the
audience to be in call and response with us, Miqueline Thomas,
Ladies and Gentlemen Artists, co advisor, founder of Art Arena, myself,
Carrie Champion, and last but definitely not lease.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Thank you Nofisa Collier.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
She is also co founder of Unrivaled Collaborator with us.
Here today w NBA player defensive Player of the Year
in the WNBA, even though she said she did need
all of that made it to the finals. She told everyone,
I am the best is putting these words in her mouth.
She's an amazing WNBA player. Give it up for Nafisa Kllier.
(08:09):
I love the idea of the synergy between athletes and artists.
I believe everyone is an artist. It's just what platform
you decide to use and how you display your art.
And it looks differently for Noficia Nefisa, I will call
her fee for fee. It is on the court for
these ladies. It is somewhere else where you can purchase
and you can collect. But I am so happy to
(08:30):
talk about the synergy between the two. Within the last year,
I think that you all have been able to notice
that there has been a rise and attention towards the
WNBA and women's sports in general, and so I will
begin with Fee because she did something that's really special,
and I'd like to talk about Unrivaled. You worked with
Brianna Stewart Stewie as we call her, to create a
(08:50):
league for women to play at home so they don't
have to go overseas, and I think that is really special.
So you went from being a player for the WNBA
and employee if you will, to being a boss. Can
you tell everyone about Unrivaled and its goal and what
you'd like to do.
Speaker 6 (09:06):
Thanks you for that really nice introduction. First of all, yeah, Unrivaled.
We started because, as Carrie said, I played in the
w I had played for four seasons at the time.
This has been the works for a couple of years now,
and through that we kind of just saw what works
and what doesn't and we thought like, why not try
to change it ourselves. And one of the biggest things
at the time, and it's even more prevalent now, is
just the rise of women's sports. And it felt like
(09:28):
everyone was benefiting off of that financially except for the
people who were putting the product on the court or
the field or wherever.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
It was.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
So something that we're really proud of is that everyone
and Unrivaled has equity.
Speaker 7 (09:40):
We're really fortunate to be able to.
Speaker 6 (09:42):
Do that, and we really want to grow the wealth
of the women in sports. We offer the highest team
salary in women's sports, which are also really proud of.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
And then thank you, Yeah that's great.
Speaker 7 (09:54):
And then yeah, just allowing.
Speaker 6 (09:55):
People to still get better, to build their brands, which
is really important for athletes and our brand sponsorships, and
to be able to stay in our home country and
to be able to make money doing it. So kind
of through all those things is what we came up
with with Unrivaled. And it starts January seventeenth, so we're
really excited to have all this work finally be starting soon.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
It's here in Miami.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So for people who want to come and watch a game,
how can they get tickets all of those wonderful things
that are here and supporting.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
Yes, you can go to unrival dot com. You can
find tickets there, merch all our teams. We have six
teams of six. It is three on three, but it
was a full court so you still get that back
and forth of traditional basketball when the premise is just
the best athletes in the world going against each other,
so it's going to be great competition, great fan experience.
We have a lot of you know, behind the scenes,
Get Ready with Me podcasts, just a really deep dive
(10:42):
into these athletes lives. So I think it's going to
be really cool for the players, but also for the fans.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I think the beauty of Unrivaled is if you all
have followed any sports in terms of the w a
lot of the women during the offseason go play overseas.
You may have heard of Britney Griner and what happened
with her when she was playing overseas, and this is
a solution for players who are home, who live here,
who want not to be overseas. She has created a
solution to a problem that she saw. So I think
(11:11):
that is beautiful and I congratulate you on what you
are attempting to do with your art as well. When
we return more from our Art Arena panel at Art
Basel in Miami for Back in a Moment.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Welcome Back to Naked Sports.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
We left off with NFISA Collier explaining how Unrivaled, the
new Women's Basketball League, wants to build wealth and legacy
for women in sports. I ask the artist Miqueleen Thomas,
whose work focuses on the many ways to see beautiful
and empowered women, how she feels about the rising interest
and investment in women's art similar to women's sports. McLean Thomas,
(11:58):
I'd like to start with you tell me about what
you've been able to see within the last few years
and the rise of people collecting art that are primarily
focused on women and wanting to be a collector of
women's art.
Speaker 8 (12:12):
I guess for the last two decades probably you can
think about that Historically, Finally women are coming into the
There's been platforms that been created for more women to
be visible. That being said, there's still a lot of
work to be done speaking about equity. There is definitely
(12:34):
a disparity between price points for women in the arts.
And especially from my experience as an artist and what
I'm doing and what I have been doing and sort
of my trajectory where I am today, is that the
challenges that I face, and I would think that many
other artists face that look like me, is the challenge
(12:56):
is really getting financial support, especially when it comes to
museums museum presentations. I have a show that's up right now,
and I can use that as an example, that's touring
mcklean Thomas All about Love.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Some of you've seen it. It started at the road, it's.
Speaker 8 (13:12):
Going to the Barns, and also then it'll you know,
and that it'll go to the Hayward, it'll travel in
Europe and then go to lave Beautoire And I have
to say it's been very challenging to get the financial
support for the show, and it's been very challenging for
my work specifically to show and institutions nationally.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
We approach a lot of galleries and we approach a
lot of museums.
Speaker 8 (13:42):
My galleries approach a lot of museums that have collected
my work. But still today don't feel that the demographic
and some of those spaces are ready to see the work.
And I think that's not the question. The answer is
not that they don't want to see the work. I
don't think they believe that the work is viable to
(14:05):
bring in sort of the audiences.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
But it's proven otherwise.
Speaker 8 (14:09):
If you look at the numbers of the broad and
also the barns of like once they are showing and
these my work is exhibiting these platforms.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
The people show up right.
Speaker 8 (14:22):
There are ticketed events anywhere from thirty to forty dollars,
which is expensive for the demographic of people that I.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Want to see the work.
Speaker 8 (14:33):
So I often have to partner with some brands that
I'm affiliated with or created collaborations within the past, like
the Your Luckily they came on board to support the institutions.
But we're at a point where there are a lot
of patrons that are on these boards and trustees that
(14:56):
are not necessarily sort of really supporting the art are
the artists. Oftentimes the artists are having to for themselves
by raising funds. I have raised a lot of money
for my exhibition by creating artworks prints for donations. We're
also having to perform and do a lot of other
(15:18):
things within the business aspect that takes us out of
the creativity.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
So I still think we have a lot to do
when it comes to.
Speaker 8 (15:27):
The artists being creatives and not necessarily it's a business.
But what's happening now and if we're also having to
raise money for our own exhibitions, which is a challenging
and I don't necessarily see that with my white male counterparts.
Maybe it is happening, but I'm not in experience in conversation.
I sit on boards and I don't necessarily see those
(15:50):
conversations happening when it comes to white male artists.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
I experience it for myself as.
Speaker 8 (15:55):
A black, queer woman artist that I'm still having to
aid the funds for these for my exhibitions to even
take shape.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
It's called the art of the challenge for a reason.
And you mentioned a word challenge several times. And when
you when you think of how far, as you pointed
out two decades, you've come, or women have come in
terms of art, you want to see more equity when
it comes to funding. That's one of the main things.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Whether you find your equity, I want to see just support.
Speaker 8 (16:26):
Yeah, it is anything comes down to numbers, right, It's
always financial. It's a business, right, It's a business on
both ends. But more the support of we can do this,
not where it is onerous to the artists to make
sort of to have these decisions made, like where I'm
cultivating or even engaging with collectors or engaging with my
(16:51):
supporters and making phone calls and nudging my galleries, like
I want to see the museums coming to me and say, hey,
this is our budget.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
You know, we are going to raise money.
Speaker 8 (17:03):
We are reaching out, not where they're presenting at the table.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Mckelean, what can you do for us to have this
exhibition of your work here?
Speaker 8 (17:14):
Because that's often what I hear is that I have
to be the one in the driving seat to allow
and make my exhibitions come to fruition.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I feel as if that's a shared experience I think
you can relate to. Trying to find the fund or
equity pay issue is a huge issue for the WNBA,
which is why you created Unrivaled And I'm curious, Kennedy,
can you share with us your experience. Yes, we've come
a long way, but there's still so much more to do. Hi, everybody,
(17:46):
thank you by Kennedy.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Hello.
Speaker 9 (17:48):
Well, I mean, you know, I was really lucky to
be put on by McLean Thomas. So all the work
that she's done has made my life and my work
easier and I will like to continue to support and
pay that forward to other artists and Derek Adams as well.
These are very important artists to me, and I think
in our community, you know, we have a lot, we
have great mentorship and that's been really incredible for me.
(18:11):
But you know, McK lean said a word performance, which
I feel is such a big demand on women, on artists, on.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Anyone trying to do anything.
Speaker 9 (18:20):
And I think for me, you know, I have I
came into I was I was the painter my whole life.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
So I've been working since I was really young.
Speaker 9 (18:30):
And I went to the San Francisco Garden Stute for
a year and I dropped out of school.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
It was very expensive to go to art school.
Speaker 9 (18:36):
And after I left, I ended up living at this
place called the Living Theater, which was an anarchist, pacifist
experimental theater company in the Lower East Side, and that
was where I learned what an artist was, or what
being an artist was, or what living as an artist is.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
And this woman who was.
Speaker 9 (18:52):
The director of the theater, which started in nineteen forty seven,
was just absolutely brilliant. Every single month, you know, she
was on the phone begging for her rent, trying to
figure out how to pay her rent. And I think that,
you know, it's really important that we not only show
up for you know, buying the art, but like, what
are the things around that feed and nourish the practice
(19:14):
and the collective.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
And my work is nourished.
Speaker 9 (19:17):
By my life experience and traveling and seeing the world
and meeting new people. And you know, I have a
background in chigong and yoga, and so those physical austerities
were really always grounding tools for me and my work
and living and being in the world. And I think,
you know, when I think about the idea of athletics
(19:37):
and sports and determination and focus and discipline, one of
the biggest things that comes up for me is what happens.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
When you know you're.
Speaker 9 (19:47):
When you have to, when your mind is the only
thing that you have left that where that is like
the last place where it's like your body's done, you're exhausted,
you've nothing left, and you have to keep going, and
you find that inside your mind and that's the to
move forward. So I think as far as challenge for
me goes is that, you know, I've always kind of
written on the outside of the system.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
I dropped out of school. I don't have a BFA,
I don't have an MFA.
Speaker 9 (20:10):
I've just now been represented for the first time ever
as of the last six months, and thank you. But
I don't think representation is the hard part. I think
it's building around that. You know, I've had to build
everything for myself and all the opportunities that I've had,
I've created, and that took a lot of hustle and
(20:30):
challenge and performance.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
And I think at this point.
Speaker 9 (20:34):
You know, we've never had as many women in boardrooms
or as many CEOs, or as many women working for
each other and supporting each other and celebrating each other,
which is amazing.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
You know, we're all here together doing this.
Speaker 9 (20:46):
So I think that's a big reason why we're actually
seeing more matrionage and more.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Collectives of women pulling money together. The Sport Project.
Speaker 9 (20:55):
What was the name of that group that was meeting
here last year, the Women the Aarchilles what was it from.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
The new museum is Artemis.
Speaker 9 (21:04):
Yeah, Artemis a great example of women coming together and
pulling money together to do a show.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
So yeah, I'm yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
The idea everything that you're saying, it sounds very familiar,
and I'm sure to you as wealthy, it sounds extremely
familiar in terms of the idea of being able to
find funding, to be celebrated, not only celebrated, but rewarded
for your art in what you do, Kennedy, you said something,
what do you do when all you have is your mind?
(21:36):
And that to me I think is a shared experience.
All you have is your mind.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Fie.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I said to you this past season was great, and
you said, the only difference was your mind. When you
hear them share their experiences and how they want to
be able to have a world in which they are
rewarded not only financially but also celebrated, how does that
relate to you? What is the challenge for you?
Speaker 7 (21:58):
I mean, it relates so much.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
I feel like all women in every field has that
same challenge, And for us specifically, it looks like we
have our new collective bargaining agreement coming up, so we
are trying to be at the table with what the
men have been, you know, obviously not asking for the
same salaries, but just the same cut of the pie,
like the same rev share that they're getting. And so
it's been a fight for us too. We just finished
(22:20):
our twenty seventh season and we're just now having these
conversations where we actually have leverage at all to be
able to do it. And so I think in our
sports specifically, and with you guys, as I've heard you say,
there's just been an explosion the past couple of years
where we are at the table now and it feels
like we're more in the driving seat. So it just
feels like so empowering to be surrounded by such powerful
(22:42):
women where you don't feel like you're crazy to be
able to ask for these things that you shouldn't feel
crazy to ask for.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Childcare, yeah, childcare, sure.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
An equal cut for things like equal pay, that seems
like something that should be natural, but you feel crazy
for asking because the people around you make you feel
that way. And so again, it's just so empowering to
be For me, specifically, when I came to the w
surrounded by one hundred and forty four women who my
second year in the WNBA, it was COVID and we
like the social justice push that we made that year.
(23:13):
I've never seen or been a part of anything like
that to that point in my life, and so I
think it's just like, slowly these things are building me
into becoming like a businesswoman today. And again, I just
it just makes me reflect on how thankful I am
to be in a position where I can have these
conversations with people from different backgrounds but we're still reaching
for the same type of goals.
Speaker 7 (23:33):
So yeah, it's just it's been an amazing experience.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
As an advisor for the art arena, McLean, What do
you think in terms of what you are trying to
do with the art arena? What do you want to see?
What in a world that is perfect, where we are
celebrating artists from all different backgrounds, but primarily artists who
are not who are not marginalized, who have been marginalized,
what would you like to see?
Speaker 8 (23:56):
There's a lot I want to see. I mean, that's
a really big quest question. It's a very good question.
And I think initially when I think about the impetus
in my mind for why Arterina exists, it was really
for my daughter, and mainly because you know, she's like
very charismatic, outgoing, but expressive and verbal, but also very
(24:23):
introverted at the same time. And I noticed at one
point when she was about ten years old, she's the
tallest in her class.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Right, She's very.
Speaker 8 (24:33):
Tall for ten and me, being a tall woman and
a tall kid, I was always the tallest in my class.
But I also had a very tall mother. My mother
was six ' one and loved her height, so she
always made me proud of my height, and so me
being a mother, really wanted to make my daughter very
(24:55):
proud of her body that she's growing in, you know,
be best in body.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
They're awkward and weird.
Speaker 8 (25:02):
They're trying to like discover and understand all the changes
that they're going through chemically. And so the only thing
that I knew was to go to sports, right, the
only thing I knew as a representation instead of me
being the person having to tell us to tell her
because oftentimes you can tell your child something over and
(25:25):
over again and they don't necessarily hear it. It watches
over them, they don't care, but as soon as they
see it or someone else says it, it makes sense
to them. And so being I live in Fort Green,
it is the Barkley Stadium, is there, the liberty it
was before it became like the sort of rage of
(25:46):
the WNBA, And I thought, okay, why don't I just
introduce my daughters to sports?
Speaker 3 (25:51):
I was.
Speaker 8 (25:51):
I thought, well, maybe she will be a basketball player,
maybe she'll be interested in basketball.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
She wasn't. She tried out for She's like, no, this
is not for me.
Speaker 8 (26:00):
She's really interested in volleyball, which is good because I
was the sport that I played. I played volleyball, and
I did track and field and cross country throughout my
elementary and high school and first years of college. So
when I took my daughter to her first game at
the WNBA at the Berkley Stadium. When I took her
to the first game and she saw all of these
(26:23):
tall women, the look on her face was like, they
look like me.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I look like them. She can now.
Speaker 8 (26:32):
It was this mirror image, And to me, that was
very profound of what is needed for young girls, for
them to see themselves and others. And so for me,
what that gave me, what that gave her was an outlet,
a way of connecting even if it's not it's.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Regardless that it's a sport she's interested in.
Speaker 8 (26:55):
It's she seeing women and athleticism, women doing something professional,
that they love a skill, and that they're proud of
who they are. That she can recognize that. And so
me recognizing that she was experienced this, I really wanted
to find a way for me to engage more with
(27:18):
women in sports. And so through my conversation with a
collective that I that I know and Portland, Oregon, John Goodman,
I was talking to him about how I could be
a little more involved with women and WBA, and he
introduced me to Linda k Gawa Collis, and she and
(27:38):
I started having these conversations of how we can intersect
and merge. Just basically, I just wanted to have conversation
and a platform for artists who think about the mind.
You know, like art is very physical and it's also
very siloed, but we also have to there's this vulnerable
(28:01):
sort of state where you have to That performative is
the spaces that we sort of put our art out
in the world, right, So I wanted to just create
this form or a space where we can engage with
others from different areas about their similar experiences. And I
(28:26):
knew that the WNBA was on this sort of this rise.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
It was something that's happened. You can feel it. There
was this synergy, this energy throughout, and so I just
really wanted to be in conversation with women in sports
and like what they've been going through and their challenges
to see if there was some similarity that we can
find this bridge of commonality that we can.
Speaker 8 (28:54):
Sort of create a movement together, right, that it doesn't
have to be these separate things entities, that maybe there's
this converge and intersection of ideas with women in the
arts with women in sports and that through this platform,
and then you know, having conversations with Linda.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Sorry, Lindsay, excuse me, excuse me, Lindsay.
Speaker 8 (29:19):
I talked to Zoda about it, and once I Zoda
got in, we started having really big ideas and it
started getting formulated, and then you know, Mitchie and we
all came about creating Art Arena as the new platform.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
But for me, what do I want from it? I
just want a.
Speaker 8 (29:42):
Space where we feel safe and comfortable, where ideas can
be cultivated, where it's an incubator of just community and
just innovation and support system, and that it's an umbrella
for how brands and sort of collaborations can manifest for
(30:08):
women in the arts and sports. And perhaps there's a
way where Pie and Kennedy can come up with something
that is collective, that can be put out in the
world that then exists that young girls could sort of
attached to whatever that thing is that they can hold
(30:29):
as their own and have on the wall in their
bedroom to sort of understand that there's something that this
artist and this athlete has come together and create something.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Whatever that is.
Speaker 8 (30:42):
It can be an object, it can be an experience,
that then they have something.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
To aspire to.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I love the idea that your daughter saw herself when
she went.
Speaker 8 (30:57):
It's really hard to described when you can when you
have a child who I remember her seeing Stewie and
was like, she's tall, like and she's She's like, she's
tall like me.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I was like, no, she's taller.
Speaker 8 (31:13):
But the fact that she seeing Stewie and then when
she met Stewie and pictures were it was everything for her,
and then getting a jersey and all of that, it
was she stood up differently, She woke up different the
next day, she felt round it. She felt like, Okay,
I'm a tall girl, and she no longer went to
school feeling like shy about being the tallest girl in
(31:36):
her class. She was like I saw her slouching a
lot and doing all these things. She she was standing
upright and like feeling good about herself, feeling good in
her own foundation hills.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
And so for me, it's that sort of.
Speaker 8 (31:51):
Essence that is sometimes undescribable that you can sort of.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Provide for.
Speaker 8 (32:01):
A young person that allows them to change their outlook
on themselves self esteem, And I think that's what it is.
I think in the bigger picture, is the confidence.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I don't know if anyone plays sports here, and I
don't want to make it seem like it's just an
inside basketball conversation, But what McLane describes is what so
many of us who didn't play sports, or who wanted
to play sports, You find yourself when in a community
of women who look like you, think like you, who
have the same ideas. You're not necessarily the same goals,
(32:35):
but the same ideas and the idea of art arena
coming together giving a home for women who want to
ultimately have equity, who want to be able, to be
seen and celebrated is something that is special. Does that
conversation that what she just said, does that resonate for you?
But because he also has a daughter who just turned
I think two, maybe turning three, two and a half,
(32:56):
so you understand what it feels like to perhaps have
a tall child on your hands, a tall little girl
on your hands.
Speaker 7 (33:02):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 6 (33:04):
I was just like, I couldn't stop smiling when you
were talking about that story because I did not have
a tall mom, and I was always the tallest, and
so sports really helped me gain my confidence because I
was surrounded by people that look like me, and so
the fact that she found that through basketball is really
like such a huge important thing to me because I
love kids, and especially now I have a daughter, I
think about that constantly. I'm like, she's already in the
(33:26):
ninety ninth percentile, she's taller than three year olds. I'm like,
you know how hard it is as a kid. And
that's why it was really important for me to have
kids while I was still playing, so they could be
surrounded by really strong people who are secure in themselves,
so they could grow up in that environment because I
didn't feel like I grew up that way. So it's
just like it it kind of validates like everything that
(33:46):
you were hoping for, like through your story. So that
was really special. So yeah, it just kind of made
me feel warm and fuzzy hearing that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, I agree, we all felt that way, Kennedy when
when they talk when we talk about art arena, you
understand the idea of what it is, but there also
is the challenge and you look at where you are
now when you first started, when you very when you
first started, and you said, Michelean put you on right,
I mean you should, I mean I did.
Speaker 8 (34:12):
I mean I was introduced to Kennedy by Derek Adams.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
She's like, give me the mic. I mean, I will.
I'm not no, I was introduced to you by Derek Adams.
But to me, it's always about the.
Speaker 8 (34:25):
Work, you know what I mean, and the work ethic
and the talent and all of that. To me, it's like,
I don't really I'm not really interested in working with
artists that don't put the work in.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
And you know what I mean.
Speaker 9 (34:40):
And I saw that you saw me, and you saw
me jump out to your truck, and You're like, this
bitch is crazy.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Yeah you are, but but what's going on?
Speaker 8 (34:48):
All artists are who I mean, you were crazy to
be doing and a radical thing to be and you
have always been you know, you shown me the way
to be and exist and shown me how to live
as an artist. And I think the word that I
hear kind of streamlining through all of this is confirmation.
And there's nothing like having someone confirm something that felt like,
am I crazy?
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Is this okay?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Like?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Can I do it this way? And I was?
Speaker 9 (35:11):
And I always I'm always doing things differently and I'm
always doing things on the edge. And unfortunately for me,
I feel very comfortable in that state of rebellion, you know,
but it's really really wonderful to have people that you
can look at. But what was the question you were
to ask me about from when I was beginning.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Oh, yes, sharing the mic, guys, this is what we do.
We share the mic. It's about a community.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
It's community here and confirmation. I just as you listen
to this story and the work, confirmation is actually apropos.
So let's focus on that when you think about what
you've been able to do and the world ahead and
what you want to be as an artist or what
you would like to envision for artists who are coming
behind you, as how mchaeleen opened the door, helped you,
or whatever word she'd like to use for it. What
(35:56):
would you like to see Because we've been talking about challenge,
but what about that confirmation?
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (36:01):
I mean, well, so when Micklean and I met, you know,
i'd been working for fifteen years already at that point,
so I had been working for a while. And again,
you know, having access to the network, having access to money,
having access to getting people in front of your works,
it is a hustle that takes you out of your
practice and it takes you out of your art mind
(36:21):
and out of your you know, one of the things
that I really believe in in the creative process in
making is that the best ideas come when one is held,
when your body is at rest, when you are clear,
when your room is clean. It's so much easier to
be able to receive. And if you can stay in
that process and stay in that work, the work just
(36:42):
gets better and fuller and over time no matter what
it happens. I think for me as an artist, and
what I'm so excited about seeing the artists that are
a generation ahead of me is that every single one
of them that has been offered equity has made space
for other artists and for great ideas. And so, you know,
I have sculpture practice, so I work very very large
(37:03):
and the logistics and the statistics about just literally moving
those things from place to place as an entire job
in itself.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
So I really enjoy building teams. It's something that I
love to do. I love to watch people blossom.
Speaker 9 (37:16):
I love to watch, you know, people grow and learn
and facilitate environments for cultivation in that way. So I've
got some fun projects that I'm working on, But I
really do believe that it's important for artists to talk
about money and for artists to understand business and to
understand how to navigate in that space. For a really
long time, and I'd really say, even just a couple
(37:36):
of years ago, it was so inappropriate to have that conversation.
And it's so not okay for artists becoming and graduating
from the MFA programs two hundred thousand dollars in debt
and none of them have work, and none of them
know how to promote themselves or how to talk about
their work.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
And you know, another great.
Speaker 9 (37:54):
Program that you guys made was the Arts at pret
the Art for pret Forward, where they were teaching business
management to artists and how to handle their selves. And
you know, as women negotiating in spaces, having to sit
strong and sit and not blink when you say that number,
you know, it's really important to understand that and also
to recognize when you're being taken advantage of.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
I'm so triggered.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
I'm just trying to no it is, but I don't blink.
Speaker 7 (38:21):
Say your number power hard.
Speaker 9 (38:23):
But really it's it's about don't question, don't don't question.
But I mean, I really I think it's a certain
kind of restraint in understanding like.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
What am I going to perform and if I am.
Speaker 9 (38:35):
Like I'm only going to give it this much energy,
you know, and like really like for me at this point,
like I'm really trying to to hold on to the
values of my life and my person and the legacy
that I would like to be a part of and
to to offer my time and my attention to. But
I'm really excited about the future. I mean, I I
don't think artists have ever had as much power, as
(38:59):
much capability, as much access as we do right now.
We have direct relationships with our audience, and it's a
really beautiful and special time for us. And the space
that the generation before has made in their mentorship, in
the programs like Art Arena that are being created. I mean,
it's just it's gonna blow the doors open. So I'm
really excited about that. To that end, we yes, please
(39:20):
clam for that. Don't blink, ladies, say your number.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Don't blink.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Naked Sports back in a moment. Welcome back to Naked Sports.
We appreciate you listening to our live taped episode from
Art Basel in Miami. I've asked panelist, multimedia artists and sculptor,
(39:49):
Kennedy Anko, artist and creative director, Mikaeline Thomas, w NBA
star and co founder of Unrivaled, the New Women's Basketball
League nafi's the Collier to talk about equity and the
value they have in a male dominated industry. We had
this conversation earlier and I'd like to strut with you,
but I would like you all to answer, there comes
(40:11):
a time in your life, no matter what you do,
but there comes a time in your life when you
are asking to be seen. And then once you're seen,
you have proven yourself, and then you become an entity,
You become a business, You become the person putting other
people on. As you described, what is that dynamic like
for you in the art world, specifically when you no
longer and not that I can say no longer, but
(40:31):
let me use this in broad terms.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
When you no longer say hey, please see me, you
say now pay me.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Now it's pay me, don't see me, but pay me
because I am who I am and I am proven.
How does that dynamic change? And is it uncomfortable for you?
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Very uncomfortable?
Speaker 9 (40:50):
Well, I mean I think that the word restraint is
really a big word around that, you know, it's like
understanding my time management where I'm going. But I think
in general, you know, fame is allowing yourself to be
seen by people and accepting that and being able to
be in your light and to be in your shine
and have people look at you while you do that,
(41:12):
and that.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Is very uncomfortable.
Speaker 9 (41:14):
And I think for so much of my life as
an artist, you know, when I first started entering the
fine art market, like I people would just look through me,
you know, and I shaved my head, I stopped wearing makeup,
and then people actually started listening what I was saying.
And I think for a very long time, I mean,
the art world is a very discreet place.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
It's very private. I think it's very new for artists
to be working with brands. You know.
Speaker 9 (41:37):
Micklean was at the forefront of making opening that those
doors for us and making it okay and acceptable.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
And I really do think.
Speaker 9 (41:45):
That it's there's there's a whole new world that's opening
up to the art, to the art and to fine
art that really wasn't.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Allowed before in a way.
Speaker 9 (41:55):
But I also do think that there's a responsibility with that,
you know, I think there's a responsibility when you are
being looked at by a lot of people. Not to
put pressure on myself or anyone else, but to take
stride in that space that this is.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
But but I have to really.
Speaker 9 (42:10):
Hone in on myself as an artist. I have mentors
who are monks in the studio. I mean, they're laboring
eighteen hours a day, They're working in a different way,
and I wanted to be just like them, you know,
But I realized, like, oh, but that's not who I am.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
I'm a different kind of artist. I work in a
different way. I have different talents, different skill sets, you know.
Speaker 9 (42:27):
So for me, it was really about and it is
about refining and continuing to really understand I don't want
to say persona, but I think you do become a
persona in a way where it's like, these are probably
some things about you that are just exact like bigger,
you know.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
And so for me it's like what's easy for me?
Speaker 9 (42:44):
And how how do I make that part of myself
that's lighted available and then to share that in some way.
But I think for a long time it was I
really did struggle with not with plumbing my shoulders or
standing smaller or trying to make other people feel comfortable,
and I think for me just like kind of getting
to the other side of that has not only allowed
(43:04):
me to feel better in myself but allowed me to
share in a much greater way by allowing myself to
be seen in my light.
Speaker 8 (43:14):
What do you think it shipped for you that sort
of transition or transformation from not be it in your
light or you are in the light, but you see
yourself in the light.
Speaker 9 (43:27):
I think a lot of the times people would always
be like, well, don't be bigger than your work, like,
don't be bigger than your art. And for me, I
was like, all right, fine, but like let me, let
let me make my art real.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Good, so y'all can sit down.
Speaker 9 (43:40):
But I think the last couple of years, you know,
the Rebel residency gave me a lot of confidence and artists,
not only to the kind of visibility that came from that,
but to be able to flex at scale, to be
able to work at scale for the first time, to
know that that thing was inside of me and then
to be able to let it out was so big
and also just coming into my woman too. You know,
(44:01):
I was in the basement in Brooklyn for fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
You know you're in there.
Speaker 9 (44:05):
You look a certain way, you live a certain way.
Having a little bit of money helps, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Well a cat, little shrip, little designer here and there.
Speaker 9 (44:13):
But yeah, I mean I think coming into my art,
I think my art developing and getting better and being
seen and being heard allowed me to take that space.
And I'm still, you know, still figuring that out every day,
you know, And it's I think.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
It's I don't think it stops.
Speaker 8 (44:29):
I think it's always a journey and sort of I
look at life and you know, like myself, just it
comes in different phases and chapters, you know, you know,
just as you evolve, you know, like you said, coming
into your womanhood. You know, like twenty years ago, I
was a different type of person and artist that I
(44:49):
was than I am today.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
And so would you evolve?
Speaker 8 (44:54):
You know, you hope that everything else around you, your
environment shifts accordingly.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
You know, It's like it's shifted at the same time.
Speaker 8 (45:04):
And I think that's when it becomes really incredible.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
But you're able for you know, like especially for me, I.
Speaker 8 (45:12):
Get a lot of my inspiration and satisfaction helping others.
It's really important for me to always provide platforms for
other artists and other opportunities and spaces and cultivate that.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
I like to think of myself often.
Speaker 8 (45:31):
I always say that I'm a conduit of culture, and
I think as athletes and artists, we are conduit to culture.
We are the ones who take risks, we're the most vulnerable.
We put ourselves out there, we are become very vocal,
whether we sort of articulate that creatively or physically right
(45:53):
that we are on sort of this visual platform that's
always scrutinized in question. So I think that lends itself
to a great opportunity to create change, to shift sort
of perception of how you're being seen.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
And when you have that opportunity to not.
Speaker 8 (46:14):
Necessarily wait until you made it, Like I didn't understand
when a lot of people say, well, I'm when I
get to a certain place, then I'm going to do
something right. And for me, I always found it very
rewarding to do it as I'm moving forward right because
I never wanted to be at the table by myself.
(46:36):
That's boring. That's a conversation that I don't want to have.
I don't I want to look at the table and
see others and see my friends with me, right, so
that we are in a conversation, So that becomes my anchor. Right,
that environment, that community becomes my support system. So that way,
if I do fall, I have a real strong safety
(46:59):
net all back on because we are all at that
table together and seated by yourself and it just doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
It's not going.
Speaker 8 (47:08):
You know, we've all done, We've all sort of persevered, and.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
I've got here by a lot of hard.
Speaker 8 (47:14):
Work and efforts on my own. But I also got
here because there are people who opened the doors for me.
There are people who also had conversations with others or
talked about my work to others. Like my first exhibition
last night, we were here celebrating Derek Adams, and Ronal
Hoffman was here right. Ronal Hoffman is a galleries who've
(47:38):
been in sort of the art world industry, creating space
for many, many types of artists. It was my first
gallery in Chicago. But I would not have gone to
that gallery if it wasn't for another artist, Handy Wiley, right,
who basically told Rona Hoffman you must see her work.
(48:03):
I must bring you to see her to her studio.
And then my second gallery came through another artist what
gauged you move to for Suzanne Wilmeters in Los Angeles.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
So for me, what I'm stating is.
Speaker 8 (48:18):
That you do the hard work, but you hope that
your peers also see you doing the hard work and
that they're the ones in conversation that is why need
your net, that they're providing that space for you, because
that is how things really get changed, because you're doing
it as a collective endeavor.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
And so all of the.
Speaker 8 (48:40):
Things that I set out to do when I started.
You mentioned Pratt Forward as a space for postgraduates and
emerging artists is a professional development program that I initiated
with Pratt Institute as a way because I started really
(49:01):
seeing and looking around and understanding that artists were becoming
very successful because the industry was really growing in a
way for them to make lots of money early in
their career. But what they weren't being successful was maintaining
(49:22):
and sustainability. And so what was happening a lot of
them were failing at the business side of it, and
that was interfering with their creative practices and where they
would get to a point where they did not want
to continue making art or continue their careers because it was,
(49:43):
you know, this sort of collapse, and so creating the
space of professional development with art world leaders became very
important so that they could really understand just some of
the nuance, just like within their own studio practice that
business of uh, you know, running your studio, having studio assistance,
(50:04):
like all of these becoming an entity, what type of
entity you become?
Speaker 3 (50:09):
So these spaces are important, similar to.
Speaker 8 (50:12):
Our arena that we not only have professional development, but
we also have a larger community of endye with a confirmation,
which to me is a sense of validation, a sense
of validation of acknowledging the artist.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I was going to ask you, but you answered the
question why is it so important for you to put
other artists on?
Speaker 3 (50:33):
But you said it.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
You don't want to be at the table by yourself.
But not only that, you want to teach. You want
to teach them the business aspect of it, because that's
what happens as opposed to losing the great artist. And
anyone who knows you knows that she will be an
advocate for you, loud and proud. So a friend of
mquean is a friend of everyone's right. Thank you so much.
Sometimes not everybody. I'm very selective. I want to In short,
(50:56):
she's not talking to anybody in the room after we leave.
No kidding, I care, I'm joking. I do want to say, state,
we have to go. I did get a five minute
wrap ten minutes ago. Fee have my bag. She's like
five minutes. We're I mean when I tell you we
are bonded up here, we're sharing the mics, we love
one another. I don't want us to forget what Kennedy
said flex for scale. I'm taking that with me. Don't blink.
(51:19):
Say your number, ladies, and don't blink, just like I
was thinking this. I was thinking this, and slide them
the envelope and then just leave right here. And also, Fee,
I want to. In the same vein in which McLean
just discussed how she wants to keep artists in the
world and teach them the business aspect, I think what
you're doing for athletes, female athletes more specifically is special.
(51:43):
There has been this world that says, yes, please give
it up. This idea that we can ask for healthcare,
we can ask for childcare, all of the things that
you feel embarrassed to ask for, and Kennedy said it
do you think I'm crazy asking for a childcare? Is
this am I asking for too much? Just the basics?
(52:05):
Is that too much? And I think that's something an
imprint that a lot of women wear in all industries.
So creating Unrivaled for women so they don't have to
travel overseas and they can be at home with their
family and they can start a life for themselves where
they can actually live and not have a roommate. Remember
she said she was in a basement. Most I hear
WNBA players tell me all the time, I have a
roommate and I'd like to live on my own as
(52:27):
a grown adult. So thank you for what you are doing.
And I didn't know if you wanted to add anything
about Unrivaled or what the future looks like for you
in your world as we.
Speaker 7 (52:36):
Rap, I mean, not about Unrivaled unless you know.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (52:40):
I think I explained in the beginning, but just I
think the idea of it. I'm just so excited just
from what everyone spoke about today. Again, we're traveling in
different lanes, but we're trying to head to the same place,
and that is really what the vision was with Unrivaled,
Just giving people an opportunity to create their art, which
is ours is on the court, and be able to
profit off of that and to create generational wealth is
(53:02):
our ultimate.
Speaker 7 (53:03):
Goal for these women's, for these women players.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
We want the same contracts. I want a four year,
two hundred million dollar contract.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
Is that possible.
Speaker 7 (53:11):
It's in the works, right, Okay, If they're.
Speaker 3 (53:13):
Doing it in the NBA, can we do it in
the WNBA.
Speaker 7 (53:15):
We're in the works. We're gonna get there.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
Uh yeah.
Speaker 6 (53:19):
Again, just like so like humbled and thankful to be
with you guys, And I just feel like I relate
to what you're saying so much. Again, our art might
present differently, but what we feel is so similar. And
so I think it's so powerful that you have so
many women traveling in the same direction no matter what
field we're on.
Speaker 3 (53:35):
And that's what I'm trying to do in my field, That's.
Speaker 6 (53:36):
What you're doing in yours, That's what you guys are
doing in yours, And so it's really cool to come
together with this in so many different arenas, but yet
we're so similar in our same thing, where we're heading
in the same direction through art.
Speaker 3 (53:46):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
That's why it's odd arena art arena ladies and gentlemen,
please give it up.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
You want to add something, Oh, I.
Speaker 8 (53:52):
Just wanted to say it's all the touched on it
earlier to say thank you all for coming out because
it is a big week and bity of you have
other options and really appreciate you showing up here for
this conversation. And I don't know, just thank you, thank
you for being here.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Thank you all for being here. Mi chi A Zelda,
thank you both. I appreciate you, Woe Otto, Ana Lindsey,
thank you, Nafisa Collier, Mikaelin Thomas and Kennedy Yanko. Please
give it up for these ladies. I'm Carrie Champion. We
are grateful that you came out. Ja. We really truly
(54:30):
appreciate you all for listening to our show on the road.
The conversation was the art of the challenge. I hope
you feel inspired and or activated to do something that
tells your story through an artistic expression. Again, I appreciate
you listening and I'll talk to you all next week.
Naked Sports written and executive produced by me Carry Champion,
(54:53):
produced by Jock VI's Thomas sound Design, and mastered by
Dwayne Crawford associate producer Olubusayl. Shabby Naked Sports is a
part of the Black Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia
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