2000 - Pacers vs Lakers (Part 2)

Hosted by 7-time champion Robert Horry and Jabari Davis, NBA Finals File dives deep into the greatest Finals series in NBA history, breaking down the best moments, storylines and matchups, using rare archival audio from the NBA, and the personal touch that only "Big Shot Bob" can give. 

In this episode of NBA Finals File, we examine the 2000 Finals, Pacers vs Lakers. Howard Beck, who was a beat writer for the Lakers at the time, joins the show to discuss the start of the great Shaq and Kobe Lakers dynasty.  We talk about the lob to Shaq vs Portland in the WCF, Kobe taking over Game 4 in OT and became a superstar, and just how dominant the "Big Aristotle" was during this season, and this Finals.

NBA Finals File is available on the iHeart app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. NBA Finals File is a production of iHeartMedia and the NBA.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to NBA Finals filled with Robert Ori and
Jabari Davis. I am Jabari, former NBA writer, current podcaster,
and I'm joined by seven time champ Big Shot Bob
himself Robert Or. Yes, I'm ready to deep in this

(00:26):
second half of this series because Pacers Lakers the start
of the Lakers dynasty absolutely look Game four. I labeled
it this is where a Star is Born, because I
truly do believe you. Welcome back to Concico field House.
The starting lineups familiar by now, and the Laker lineup
include Poby Bryant in the backcourt. Let's go to a

(00:47):
voter shot all right, thanks by by Jess Pope. With Kobe,
he said that he's feeling fine, a little bit stiff,
but I didn't notice during the warm ups and the
laff line he did not shoot any lay up for
I have him about pass. He said, well, I did
that on purpose because I'm saving it for the game.
He shot all jump Shot said he's gonna drive to
the basket once the game start. So I'm gonna be
honest with you, Rob, this is one of my favorite

(01:07):
games I've ever had the pleasure of watching. I'm not
being hyperbolic. I'm not just saying it because we're discussing
to hear in this show is a fact. So Shaq
doesn't take long to make his presence felt as he
grabs him off insive rebound. He dunked it over the
top of Dale Davis. Kobe comes down, hits a jumper
over to Mark Jackson. On the next possession, Bryant hit
Silver Jackson. So I think is the game goes on

(01:28):
if Kobe can get his ankle to loosen up, it
appears already he's starting to feel much better about it.
Think he did the first couple of minutes, Bob, and
even though he wasn't at full strength. Honestly, as an observer,
that was the point. That was the moment where I said, like, okay,
all right, that's more like it. You know, once that shot,
you know, went down for you guys, you did you
already expected or or did that give you some sort
of your comfort? We kind of expected because that's why

(01:51):
you have shoot arounds, that's why you sit in the
locker room, that's why you have great chainers like we
had and Gary beat I don't even right, okay, I
can change and we knew that his ankle was tested.
I know you can hear announceystem. I don't think he's

(02:11):
ready yet, you know, like, well, we knew it was
ready because we've seen it. And we weren't gonna put
him out there if he wasn't ready, because we know
we were up, you know, two to one, and we
still had room for some error, and so we wasn't
gonna put him in a position to hurt himself. That's
a good point, Okay, So the Pacers still controlled the

(02:32):
action enough to build a ten point lead after the
first only to see you guys flip the scripts in
the second quarter. Once again, it was a whole lot
of Shack taking his time, you know, pivoting off of
multiple defenders for dunks. One dunk in particular, it happens
to come off of one of my favorite finals plays.
So let's actually just go through it. With just under
three forty five to go in the first half, Kobe's
operating and semi transition with Shacks trailing behind. Do you

(02:55):
remember this play? Before I go keep going through it,
you have to set it up a little bit more
because because you know, that's that's of the offense right there.
That's very true. And that's fair. So Kobe's operating, He's
in semi transition, Shocks trailing behind Kobe, you know, drives.
He jumps in the air to continue drawing defenders, only

(03:18):
to dump it behind his back to shock for his
patented two handed monster jam. Kobe starting to go a
little bouncing his stepper. You can see starting to feel
much better. I think, if you're Phil Jackson, you have
to be very happy you sort of weather this storm,
this emotion. Okay, now that I play, I do remember,
because you know, Kobe was at that moment where he was,

(03:39):
you know, trying to get his game off, trying to
get that rust off because he had just missed the
previous game out with that ankle. So he was driving
into the whole. And Kobe was really really good at
finding shock in those positions, and not just shock, but
other people drawing the defense and kicking it. And you know,
when youre driving, you got big fella in the paint,
controlling the paint like he did this series. Why not

(04:00):
drop it off to the d's and let him do work.
But let's go ahead and jump ahead, because look, let's
just get the money time. Both teams. They battle throughout
this one. But look, we got a classic overtime from
this one. Baby, and the patients are right at the
Lakers ruck fat cook shot rolled off to the left

(04:24):
hand side, and we got overtime. Hide at one of four.
You kick things off in O T with a step
in jumper just inside the three point line. Then you
grab an offensive rebound the next time down for a
dunk to put the Lakers up four and early going
in O T, Robert Ari fake the three moved in
closer and gives the Lakers the early leading overtime. Very

(04:47):
confident shot O'Neil driving on Smith's Ori is there to
finish it up. You gotta rebound the basketball when you
look out there right now. Smith's is not a good
rebounder for a big man, nor is cro shirt Jackson
Foultro heading into the overtime, No oar. He then fouls

(05:14):
out with two thirty three in over in overtime. What
is your what is going on in your guy's mind
at that point? Because I know, I know you said,
you know when when you were missing Kobe, it was hey,
look you know it's okay, it's time to go. What
does it mean to you guys when you see shot
go down. Now we saw shot go down. We're looking
at the way that fouls called. We're like, what is
going on, Like y'all trying to make this thing go

(05:37):
down to two to make it for TV and make
it go game seven. So we had a lot of
thought process going in that. You know, that's just such
a you know how players think for us. But it
wasn't worth because we thought that we were rolling pretty good.
Glenn was shooting pretty good myself fish, you know, and
we had Coldback who had gotten to a little rhythm.
And so even when our big fellow we went we

(05:57):
had a whole lineup set up for when Big Fellow
was in the game when went to a sort of
spread where we've just sliced and then we had Kobe
Gold one on one. So we had a lot of
a lot of stuff in our repertoire that people didn't
know about, and that's what we kind of went to
down the stretch. So here's where I guess the Spider
Sally did go ahead and earn those playoff checks. They
the you know, Phil turns, the Phil turns the Sally.

(06:20):
Now incomes John Sally, thirties, six year old veteran trying
to become the first player in NBA history to win
win title rings with three different teams Pistons, Bulls and
now Lakers. When he's gonna go against Smith's and Smith's
is gonna have the inside position here if they double,
somebody's got a three, he throws up the hook. He's
got twenty points and the Pacers are within one, and

(06:43):
you know, to pay the Pacers to their credit, they
immediately go back to Smith's who makes a turnaround jumper
right over the top of Sally. And now the funds
really set to begin, because you know, Kobe has Reggie
on him at the top of the key before a
hard won dribble crossover between the legs that loses him
and Kobe knocks down a long too. Kobe, it's gonna
try to attack, shaking on Miller and hitting a two

(07:08):
point basket. He was just inside the line. The Laker
leaders three again. How about the boys of this young guy.
It's twenty four for Kobe, eighteen of them after halftime.
Then Kobe turns around and gives that iconic settled down
motion as he's running down the court, and I have
to ask you, seriously, Rob what are you guys are
thinking at that time? Are you looking at this kid

(07:30):
like who the hell are you? Or are you sitting
there like Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and settle down. No,
EI know it's it's weird because I didn't see that
until you know, you're watching the highlights and stuff and
he does that. I'm like, oh, I'm like okay. I
was like, Okay, that's cool. You got this. Okay, we're
gonna roll, which because there were so many moments throughout
Kobe's career in playing with him that we just said, okay,

(07:52):
young fellow, you got it going, We're gonna get out
of your way. Because that's what teammates do for players
when they got it roll. You either set it up
for them to keep rolling, or you do something for
them to make them roll. And when Kobe's rolling, we
just got his way and let him go to work.
And I completely understand that mindset. The Pacers, to their credit,

(08:12):
they continue to go right back at you. Smiths comes
right back down, hits another turnaround in the lane with
about a minute and a half left and overtime, bringing
the Pacers to within one point. Kobe comes right back
calmly surveys the next time down before rising over Mark
Jackson burying another long too. That that's where you get that,
You know that that famous line off of the broadcast,
how good is this kid? Toby is gonna go to

(08:34):
work again, Harry is over Jackson? How good is this kid? Well, now,
Mark Jackson is in playing here, and you know, defensively
he is not a good defender. He met stuff on
Toby on that play. But just stepping up and shooting
huge shots. Let me ask that. Let me ask this
really quickly. I know you know that, you know things
have changed. It seems like in this series in particular,

(08:57):
you guys had a lot of long twols. Was there
a reason for that instead of in sead of just
backing up with just a little bit more. Uh, you
take good shots, and we're not like this day and
age where guys are searched for the three. It's about
getting buckets. And that's one of the things that I've
always harp on everybody. When you're playing basketball, It's about
getting buckets and you take the shot that you've given.
You don't search for three, you don't back up and

(09:18):
gather allowed of defense to recover you take the shot
that's given to you. Fair enough, fair enough, and we're
at one eighteen, one seventeen, you know, Lakers with twenty
eight seconds left. Reggie actually does a really good job
of denying Kobe the ball in the last possession, which
basically forces Shaw that you do that to have to
attack the rim. Why do you seconds? Lakers lead it

(09:38):
by a point now fourteen on the shot twelve shot
shot no rebounds. Told me, right, puts it in, you know,
he lets off a soft floater in the lane that
Kobe rebounds and puts it back along the baseline to
put you guys back up three and kind of, you
know it, kind of it was a similar just you know,
it was just flipping the risk. You know, they you

(10:00):
know that you had done, but putting you guys back
up three. Rick Fox actually in this situation and I
had totally forgotten about this, but the nets played down.
I'm sure you didn't. Rick Fox gets called for a
dead ball follow on jailing roles with five point nine seconds,
allowing the patients to pull within two with the ball.
The first thing you do as a team, you tell

(10:20):
everybody don't file in that situation, don't set yourself up
for failure. And Rick is a very aggressive defender, and
so he was trying to get over the screen. And
don't get me wrong, Jalen Rose is a very smart player.
He grabs Rick's arm and goes down because he knows
that's the point. And when you got Reggie Miller on
your team and the way that that that Rose has

(10:42):
been shooting the ball, that put us in a bad predicaments.
Instead of going for a tie, they could go for
a win. And we were we was like, okay, here
we go. Just have to you don't settle down and
play good defense. We was, you know, we was really
worried about that play at first because they're at home,
and so that's why you won't home court advantage. That's
why you come back home, because you're in your comfort zone.

(11:03):
And I think that put them in a really good
place to try to win this game. We think run now,
I've been here before in this situation that time when
they double down circle here. Yeah, I would say it
was a really good place because Reggie actually gets a

(11:23):
really good look at the last second. Three we're inside
of five. Reggie comes around the screen for the wind.
It was as straight as could be. In fact, I'm
gonna give you credit, and I'm not being funny here
because you actually you're flyout. I feel like that had
to if that had to have thrown them off just
a little bit, because it's for it basically forces him to,

(11:44):
you know, take the shot over your outstretched hands and
that's it. The Lakers take a three one serious lead.
It hits back rim. You guys take it on eight team.
But honestly, when your when that shot was released, did
it part of you think like, oh no, this might
have a chance. You know, I was really worried about
Reggie because Reggie was playing really good in this game.

(12:07):
You know, Reggie was at home, he had with thirty
five points in the game. He was already six ft nine,
so he was red hot. And if you watched throughout
this series that our team was really good about this.
When a guy is getting beat, the defender who was
on Reggie or Jalen, whoever might be, they yelled at help,
and we had our deep as a small line up

(12:27):
in there. So when they yell at help, my immediate
reaction was just to get out there to Reggie as
soon as I possibly can. And I always I I say,
I got a good contest on it, but I think
at the end of the day, it was a good contest,
but it was still a better shot. He just happened
to come up short on this one. Hey, sometimes it's
a maker misleague, and you know, for for your guys sake,
he missed that one. So you guys, so you're you

(12:47):
take the command. You got a three one lead. That's
just one better than this shocks you know, he still
has thirty six and twenty one despite foulding out. Kobe
winds up with five and four. You had a nightf
I'm not mistaken. This was your best scoring night off
the bench. You had seventeen to go along with your
six boards. And you guys are in position, you're up
three one. How are you feeling. We're feeling pretty good. Um,

(13:10):
we had just experienced a heck of a serious going
up three one, and we're kind of like, hey, we
know what we did wrong in that series. We know
how our mental approach was in this game. Now we
need to change our outlook. We're in their building. We
know we're gonna take a punch from them next game.
Get focused, not not later, but now we was our
hope he was to get focused and meeting at this

(13:31):
game and and and try to close this thing out.
This is the game that I've been dreaming about, actually
dreaming about hit the game. When a shot, I think
for myself personally, it's just uh, just giving me more confidence.
But I think more importantly, it gives my teammates the
confidence in me to perform. We used to type of situations,
and and that's something that I valued tremendously. So I
know you know what's coming up. The reason why I

(13:51):
set that question up is because as we go to
t as we transition the game five, we're basically in
the unleashed the fury on you guys. I have to
ask you straight up because it was such a blowout, yo,
did y'all was there any part of you or any
part of the of the locker room that maybe went
out and preemptively partied in greater Indianapolis area after Game four?
Or was it really just a matter of Indiana's last

(14:13):
best punch for the season. And we have to stay
focused and we have to play like it's a seventh game.
It's hard to stay in the moment. It's kind of situation.
You get giddy, you know you had a lot of energy,
a lot of thoughts about it. Just get really focused.
The Lakers. I won victory away, but they have had
trouble closing out series and this post season. But if

(14:33):
you they scored thirty nine points in that first quarter,
and they I think there was six ft six from
three Adriple drive by Jackson didn't shoot it. They swim
in the ball. And now that great pointer on the
way that's said there are six first six, so great
point range, and I like this, gotta warm up the ballpack.
They came on fire and when you went into a

(14:54):
bus so like that, there's nothing you can do but
try to tread water and hope that you can survive.
Scrolls and Miller, they've had wide over you use it said, Okay,
they had the good first quarter, we're gonna come out
and have a good second quarter. And the second quarter
it continued. They beat us in that quarter seventeen we

(15:17):
only had seventeen points. That's still handling on the top. Wait, honey,
stop that side off. The fake tells the free ball.
And you just say, okay, let's try to make this
thing respectaful, Let's not get too crazy. Let's try to
end this thing without anybody go getting hurt. And remember,

(15:39):
in the back of your head, this is why we
have home quarter advantage. That that is that is a
nice carrec to have in the back, in the back pocket,
because yeah, to your to your point, the second half
is more of the same. They outscored you guys by
double digits once again and wound up taking this one
on seven. Hey went outside the reggie. Here it comes Lakers,

(16:03):
well not they celebrated on the part, you know, at
least give Pacers fans something to cheer for. One cheer
four one last time Jalen went off again. He put
up thirty thirty two, six and five are reggie. You
know he has twenty five on the flip side. Shock,
you know you're still dominant. He puts up thirty five.
Kobe was really had a little bit of a nightmares.

(16:24):
Ninety was four for twenty, you know, and the only
other player to reach double figures was Glenn Rice with eleven.
So what is Phil Jackson saying to you guys after
a loss like that? Forget about it, um, because he
says that's gonna happen. When sometimes when teams are desperate
and they have their backs against the wall at home,
So just forget about it. We're going back to our

(16:45):
comfort zone. You know, we have two games to win one,
but we only have one game that we're gonna focus on,
and that was the next game. This is the worst
beating the Lakers are packing all year long. I don't
like to think of a team that has chap big
chip quality in it that loses by thirty three points.
And you know, we have to prove something to ourselves.

(17:06):
And when we go back home in this regard, you know,
when you've been there as many times that philipp been.
But honestly, but also to the point that you made earlier,
you have you have all of that veteran leadership throughout
the throughout that roster. I believe that I believe that
everybody feels comfortable going back. So let's take a break here.
But when we come back and Lakers try to close
out the series. All right, we're back here on NBA

(17:33):
Finals following. Let's go ahead and get to the closing time.
I'm sure you guys knew this. This Pacers team, you know,
like they weren't about to roll over, especially coming off
the emotional high you know, up game of that Game
five blowout, but you know, you guys are coming home,
so you had to feel good about your chances. What
was the mood in the locker room heading into this one, Well,
we were really piste off, to be honest with you,
because we just got blown out. We just got embarrassed

(17:55):
in the NBA Finals, and so I was hoping that
this embarrassment was and give us a lot of energy.
I think being at home to close it out was
gonna provide a lot of energy to the fans, and
that the whole arena was gonna be electrified. And we
came out kind of like saying, Okay, let's take our
time and be meticulous on how we play. And I

(18:17):
think that kind of put us on our heels instead
of just coming out mad, angry and just going right
at them and just dominating the paint with Shack in
a weird way. I had actually forgotten how good of
a game this was, you know, for my memory, I was,
you know, you remember game four, You remember the blowout
in game five, and then you go for whatever reason,
I thought like, okay, yeah, they put them away in

(18:38):
game six. Honestly, Rob, as I watched this game back,
you know, in prep for you in prep for the
you know, this conversation. It had a game seven field
to it. It really did, at least, you know, at
least at that point, especially throughout the first three quarters,
first three quarters, Like you said, we lost all three quarters.

(19:03):
Bird has to be extremely pleased. But all this is
unfolding so far, and we're at home. We're supposed to
protect our house and we didn't do it. And I think,
you know, I think about you know, other cvs that
I've had, and you think about shots that players have hit.
Think about that three pointer that Mark made that was

(19:24):
huge for them. You know, we had just fun to
cut that thing closer, and then he makes his three
at half time. Yes, yes, believe that Rob Jalen Rose
had a hell of a series. Like I wouldn't say
that I underrated his performance, but I certainly didn't appreciate
it for what it was, even in that losing effort.

(19:45):
I actually think he was Indiana's best player in this series,
meaning meaning no disrespect to Reggie. Jalen winds up with
you know, with another twenty nine, you know to Reggie
twenty five in this game. But the big surprise for
Indiana was the twenty point fourteen rebound outbursts from Dale
Davis because he hadn't even reached twenty points in the
previous three games combined. Yeah, he was a monster on
the boys. He came out being very effective in the paint.

(20:09):
When I saw a couple of his dunks, I'm like, WHOA,
I'm like, where is this Dale Davis? Ben? I'm glad
he didn't showed up for the other games. And so
Dale was incredible on the boards. He was protecting in
his house. And back to what you're saying about Jalen.
You know Jalen people forget was he won Most Improved
Player that year. You know, he was most improved player.

(20:29):
He came out, he was he was leading score on
that team, even though it was Reggie's team. He was,
you know, a quiet little guy who just did his
job and came out and hit his jumper. And if
you watch Jalen's game, it was athletic, but it was
just no simple rocky to sleep. And this next thing,
you know, he's shooting a little left hand jumper and

(20:50):
I think that's what got him awful lot of times
because he was left handed and he was able to
get create that shot because when you basketball players are
are accustomed, right handed players and left handed players always
get the best of you get you. You're talking to one.
I understand, even at my low, even at my low
trash level, that you know that I played. I understand

(21:11):
I took advantage of that many times. All Right, it
felt like you guys hit one last switch at the
start of the fourth quarter as you quickly erase the
three point deficit and outscored the Pacers twenty two to ten.
If I'm not mistaken, to start the quarter steals back
two on one, Bright and copy indeed give the shock.
Shack is hammered, stories fall to crowd once again. To

(21:35):
their credit, the Pacers weren't going anywhere because Jalen Rose
is the three pointer actually ties the game at one
oh three with just over five minutes to play by
three Pacers come back brought into the corner. Yeah time.
As Jane Rose nuts down the three ball with five
minutes to go with a one oh five to one

(21:57):
oh three lead, Harper comes up with a with a
key steal, and you guys came down and fed Shack
in the in the post for a nice turnaround jumper
on the baseline that actually put him at forty for
the night. Honestly, when Shaq had that turnaround jumper going,
there really wasn't an answer for him. Right. You know,

(22:19):
we have a stand in Alabama. You can call their
dogs and piss on the fire because the hunt is over.
You know, when he's able to knock down shots like that,
it's incredible because he has his jump hook going. Now,
you can't just file him and send him to the
free throw line. He doesn't have to be down in
the paint and dunk on you. His jump hook was
nice sometimes and when he was able to knock that down,

(22:40):
you were in trouble. He had it going in this
honestly throughout this series, but in particular in this game.
Indiana then goes and we we just kind of discussed this.
They went to the Hacker Shack with three minutes left.
Shack misses the first but makes the second to put
the Lakers. Put your Lakers up seven. Rob Let me
ask this, because we've always heard this. Is it really
more difficult to make that second one after missing the first,

(23:03):
and especially in a big moment like that, or is
that just an old tale that we tell I think
it's an old tel. You guys, tell UM when you
you've more focused on the second one when you missed
the first one, UM, and you go out because you
can correct what you did wrong in the first shot,
and you can do it in the sex. Then most
of us can do that when sometimes if you miss,
if you think about you can just miss free throws,

(23:23):
because you can miss free throws. And people look at
this series where Reggie I think he was thirty five
or thirty six or something, he only missed one free
throw throughout this whole series and that's just, you know,
a credit to him being a great shooter. And you know,
you talk about if you want to go back to
UM the game we win over time with me, I
missed a free throw down the stretch that could have

(23:43):
put us up for UM. But you don't think about that.
You just go out and you just shoot the free
throw because each shot is a different shot, each shot
you need to make before we move forward. I want
to credit Harp on that last possession because even though
Reggie makes the basket, Harp closes out hard. He he
actually runs him off the three point line, making him adjust,
and that adjustment is what led to him stepping on

(24:05):
the line and making it a two instead of a
three miller. That's why it's so important. I think give
him his foot was on the line a two point basket.
Can you speak to those types of like those types
of hustle plays and and and and plays in general
that can make the you know, make the difference in

(24:25):
a game in a series. It's something about the last
two or three minutes of a game where that energy
comes from somewhere. And you think about Harp was one
of those guys that could play great defense at any
moment of anybody. And he was running on one leg.
I think people don't realize his knee was so bad
that he was he had to get treatment almost every

(24:45):
day on it. But he was He was that guy.
He was a competitor, He was a champion. He had
just won those championships with the with the Bulls, so
he knew at that last minute you had to give
it you all. And he was able to get out
there and and and make Reggie take a contested shot
and make Reggie do something that he wasn't comfortable. But
if you go back and look at that play, I say,
Reggie stepped out of bounds before you shot that shot,

(25:07):
but that would due to Harps good defense. It was
really close. Those heels did look like and honestly, Doug
Doug Collins on the on the thing, he almost says like,
wait wait, Reggie almost you know it was close. It
was close. They didn't get you noticed, they didn't give
the zoom in on that one. They we didn't get
all the angles on that one. So they go down.
They hack him again. He misses your shack misses too,

(25:28):
So then the Pacers get the ball. They go down.
You know, you fould Austin Crozier. He misses the first
and then Phil puts a c in for shock in
order to avoid him getting hacked one last time. And
you know, I don't want to put you on the spot.
But honestly, what's the big fellow saying there? Is he
fine with it? Or is he is? He pissed? No,
he wasn't you know he was pissed. He was pissed
because I think for him it felt like an embarrassing

(25:51):
moment that I'm gonna start of his team down the stretch.
You're gonna put me on the bench and I need
to be out there for the rebounding And I think Phil,
he didn't do it all series, and I guess he
was like, Okay, we need this moment. It's too close
for comfort and I need some security. So he took
check out. I can only imagine what was, you know,

(26:13):
the different the verbiage that was coming from him at
that time. Reggie goes back rim on a three attempt
at the thirty second mark before Kobe gets fouled on
the drive. The next time down his two free throws.
You know, they pushed the lead out to five, and honestly,
it was pretty much over from there. Your Lakers win

(26:44):
at won sixteen one eleven. It's Shack and Kobe's first
title together. It's you, it's your personal, your third. It's
Phil jackins seventh as a head coach. Jack winds up
with forty one twelve, Kobe puts up twenty six and ten.
Glenn Rice also added scene in six, take me through It?
How's it feeling? You mentioned last week you didn't touch

(27:09):
the trophy. How did you make sure that you got
the trophy this time? Yeah, I got a little try.
I got the trophy this time because it was Laker love,
you know, growing up a Laker fan, idolizing magic I
want to be one of those guys to touch the trophy.
And for me it was a special moment. It felt
really good because when you are a kid and you're

(27:30):
out on the playground, you imagine this guy that guy,
and you imagine you're on a certain team, and all
of a sudden you're playing for that team. You imagine
yourself on You know that's got all good and then
it But to be on that team actually and win
a championship is a great feeling. And you look back
at that series and you look at how well we performed,
and you just gotta give credit what credit is to

(27:52):
due to little guys like you know, Fish, Harp Fox
because that game Regy Miller didn't shoot that well. He
was two for ten from three and that's all the dude,
to those guys kicking in and locking in on him
to make his life miserable. Rob, I have to ask you,
and I know I'm putting you on the spot a
little bit. Are all rings the same? Are all your
rings like your children? You love all of them? Or

(28:12):
do any of them mean more than the others? And
all there's never anything quite like the first in the
championship shot out only the m v P of the
regular season, but also the playoffs. Look at the terrors
running down his cheeks. Uh, they're all special, they all
all love them. Each one that has a different meaning.
And that's a whole another show in itself, because I

(28:35):
can talk about each one of them and what it
means meant to me personally. Be But this one, to
me is my top three rings because it was done
in the Laker uniform. I can appreciate that all right.

(29:01):
Time for our final break. But when we come back,
we've got Howard Beck rejoining the show to talk a
little bit more about his experience covering those two thousand Lakers,
and we give out our special awards. When you're gonna
shave man looking like me, looking at scuffy like me.

(29:25):
I got more grade than you do. How's that possible?
You have more stress? Do? I mean? You got it?
Before meeting every day? I was gonna ask if you're
using that Clyde Frasier, you know, just for men. No,
just you got the beard Beijing. I'm gonna have to
get rid of this. It's getting to your grade and

(29:46):
I'm not about to use coloring rock. You know, you
Pip that you got it? Welcome back to the NBA
Finals File with Robert Rre and Bari Davis, and today
we have a special guest joined in the show. Former
Lakers beat writer for The l A Daily News, current
senior writer for Sports Illustrated, and once again the host
of the Crossover podcast, Howard beck Thanks again for joining us.

(30:06):
Great to be here, guys. So before we get into
the awards, we have a segment that we like to
do called story time with Big Shot. Since you're our
special featured guests and you covered the team, can we
get some story time with it? Says Fred. But let's
go ahead and say, can we get some story time
with Howard Becky before you start? How storytime? They can

(30:27):
no be it can mean no bad stories about me?
All right? Just let you know I don't have it.
How is how what is it even possible that I
would have any bad story? Okay, Robert Dory proceed, My
friend proceed. I will say Rob loved loved during pregame
at locker room Acus, Rob loved being the one to
throw us out of the locker room. Back then we
had forty five minutes of pre game. There's a clock

(30:48):
there at John Black the Long time lakerspr director would
eventually come and say, hey, guys, you know, time to
go whatever. Rob would love it. He'd be watching the
clock and he'd be like getting pointing that figure at
at us, like like he was tossing us, like like
like Joey Crawford injecting a player. Rob would be like,
get at it. But in that friendly Robert Ry way.
Rob was also great with the refs that way. Rob

(31:10):
was like one of those guys who he could be
chewing on the refs the whole game, but then break
in that big, old mega watt Hollywood smile of his
put them at ease. I don't even know if I
ever saw Rob get a tech, because he he had
this way of like being able to go out the
refs and they'd be like, I'm just messing with you
kind of stuff smile, and they were all he was.
He was just buttering them up. Rob, you were smooth
leaving back then Okay, I try my best, man, I

(31:32):
try my best. He had that Will Smith thing going on,
but not but not but not the reason Will Smith,
the old Will Smith. I should clarify, um no listen.
So one of the things I remember about that finals
in two thousand. There's two things, right. Obviously, Kobe's Game
four was epic coming off the sprained ankle, and one
of the things we all remember was Shock given Kobe

(31:55):
a piggyback ride. You know this is and this is back.
But we're already expecting about relationship and all this stuff,
all his intrigue, and here was Shack caring Kobe in
two I think it was shoot around um in Indiana
coming off the bus, and so that got you know that,
you know that the cameras got them, and so that
was like this fun little moment. But Kobe's ankle was
jack jacked up bad Mrs Game three and that gets

(32:17):
the Pacers into the series. So we can talk about
Game four because it was such an epic moment for him,
But I will on a personal note or just personal
slash professional. One of the things I remember is the
l A Daily News. My employer. They wanted to do
that thing where we preprint a a fake front of
Lakers win the championship. Right, this was gonna be their

(32:38):
first title in I think twelve years, and so we
want to capture the moment, but they wanted to run
it off ahead of time so that we could sneak
it into the locker room handed out, and that way
cameras would catch both the TV cameras and others would
catch the Lakers having the l A Daily News that
big banner headline Lakers win it all and I got

(32:59):
I got J. M. Crawford shacks Uncle Jerome his bodyguard
to let me get that box of newspapers. Like again,
it's pre printed in the hopes that or expectation they
would win for Game five in Indiana. This is back
it's the two three to right. So game five is
in Indiana. We did, we got it in there. They
lost the game, so we just had to like trash

(33:21):
all those whatever, so somewhere somebody might still have like this.
This it could be a collector's edition, but this it's
like Dewey beats Truman Um. But we had that in
there ready to go so that we could take advantage
of it. I can't remember if they did another version
of that for Game six back in l A, so
that we could again do that and take advantage of having,

(33:43):
uh that that that promotional moment basically, but Rob, you
probably wouldn't have even never seen those or new that
that we had those there did not know that was
a little stealth marketing by my employer that didn't work
out so well. That is fantastic, Howard, I'm wondering, did
in your mind how much of a superstar or how
much of a started game for makee Kobe? Was that

(34:04):
his coming out party? It absolutely was. And and remember,
Kobe makes the All Star team in his what second
season that season in New York, and it's billed as
this Kobe versus m J thing. Kobe wasn't even starting
for the Lakers yet he was blocked by Nick Van
excellent Eddie Jones. And so he'd already been an All
Star based on popularity alone. He had already been a

(34:26):
slam dunk champion, and he'd already been electrifying, right, and
the charisma and you know, just the excitement in his game,
the creativity, the Jordan's parallels, it was all there, but like,
all right, fine, A lot of guys had Jordan's parallels
or of Jordan's s Jordan's like you know, dubbed the
next but nobody had pulled it off. And with Kobe,

(34:49):
I think a lot of people thought there's a there's
you know, he's an approximation of Michael. But come on, Michael,
no one's gonna be Michael, And of course nobody was,
but Kobe came as close as anyone. But by at
that point in time, we don't know that that's gonna happen.
It's not preordained. Probably was preor dated Kobe's mind, but not,
I think to the rest of the n b A

(35:09):
and as as Rob knows, because his whole career is
is framed by this. You make your mark in this
league in the postseason. It's your postseason moments that matter most.
Nobody cares with Robert Orry averaged in the regular season.
Rob hit all those big shots. By the way, big
shot Rob. We never called him Bob. I don't know
anybody ever called Robert or Bob. This is driven me

(35:30):
crazy for twenty seven years. Rob just rolls with it.
No seriously, you can call me Fred, but nobody calls
you Bob. Nobody calls who calls you Bob, But everybody
just it's just rolls better. I think the big shot Bob,
you know. It's just that's how it originally started as
big Shot Bob, and then my mom didn't like it,
and so she changed it to Rob. But then I

(35:51):
just wrote with Bob because it's just BSB sounds better.
It's no, there's that nice alliteration big and Bob. Okay,
I get that. But anyway, um, but but Rob, your
reputation is based on all those incredible, momentous shots at
key moments in the postseason. And so for Kobe, I think,
no matter what we had already seen in the regular season,
if you average twenty points, if he you know, a

(36:12):
couple of big shots, nothing was gonna be it was
gonna make the same impact. So the lab to shock
is a moment, but it's Shack's basket in the end
that Game four against the Pacers. So for people the
quick summary, of course, Shack fails out in overtime, Kobe
scores six of their last eight points, including the game winner,

(36:33):
which is a behind over over his head put back
of Brian Shaw's miss with five point nine seconds left
that wins them game four. And he did all this
on an ankle that was so bad that he could
even play the prior game and had to come in
piggyback on Shack that night. In real time. That was
when people said, whoa, whoa, I see it now, this
kid is like Jordan's not that he's Michael, but man

(36:56):
like when you deliver in moments like that, the way
he did, the poise he showed, the kind of the
shots that he hit, the way he was able to you.
You rewatch the broadcast and you can hear Doug Collins
and Bob Costas talking about after shack fouls out in overtime,
this is gonna be in Kobe's hands. Now, watch Kobe Bryant.
You know that Kobe's gonna take over the game. Be
aware of Glenn Rice is three point shooting, but Kobe

(37:19):
it's gonna try to attack. And he just he just
delivered time and time again in those few minutes. That's
a signature moment. That is the kind of moment that
stamps you as being as being a great player, but
also as in his case, certifying all the hype that
had come before it. And we have these off days
between games right where everybody's now writing these reflective pieces.

(37:42):
That was the day everybody was writing about. That was
Kobe's moment. That was his, Michael Jordan's moment. This kid
is for real. He's only twenty one years old. A
few months I have his twenty second birthday. But this
kid is for real. If anybody can live up to
that mantle and that hype and that that title of
Air Jordan's h e I R Jordan's It's it's this kid,
Kobe Bryant. I think no question in my mind in

(38:03):
real time, and looking back, that was when he truly
arrives for me. I look back at that at moment
and Kobe was winning to play in Game three, and
a lot of people don't know this, but they had
to literally hide his shoes from and to no, you
cannot play because he was that type of competitor. And

(38:23):
when you're trying to get your first championship, it don't
matter if it's if it's hanging on by a thread,
You're still gonna try to play because you feel like
that thread can get you through the game. And that's
how Kobe was. He was a competitor. He was a
guy who wanted to go out and compete at all times.
And thinking about it, you go back and watch the game.
When he came back, he started picking up Mark Jackson
full court. Who does that on a bum ankle? You

(38:45):
usually wait and half course said okay, I take care
of that, but not him. That's the kind of competitor
he was. And he brought it defensively back then too, right, Rob,
Like I know people think he coasted on like reputation
or whatever, But like Kobe's defense in those especially those
early years in that first three p I mean, he
would he would luck guys up, he would get into
guys when he was domb he as number eight, he

(39:05):
was a great defended as twenty four, he kind of say, Okay, guys,
I've done all that. You gotta do it now when
you're putting up thirty six, you know, maybe you slack
off a little bit on that end. All right, guys,
this has been absolutely fantastic. Can we go how about
getting into these awards? Let's do it, all right? I
Mean I almost feel like this first one here is

(39:27):
is a no brainer. But I'll go hit and ask Howard,
who was your m v P for this series? Uh?
You know what's a big fellow? You know what's Shaquille
O'Neal um. He was absolutely dominant. And that Pacers team,
I don't want to say they were built to deal
with him, but they certainly had a lot of quality.
Bigs Dale Davis was there just to bang on him.
Sam Perkins was there to bang on him inside, but

(39:50):
also to draw him out to the three point line
and try to neutralize him. At the other end. Rick
Smith's very skilled offensive center, not exactly built to bang
with Shack. But I mean, Shack was just killing people.
And like that was his m v P year two
in the regular season, and he followed up with with
his first finals m v P uh, and there was

(40:10):
there was never any question Kobe was huge, you know,
like of course, like Kobe maybe even saved the series
with that Game four because that could have been a
two two tie easily and things made unfold differently. But yeah,
MVP is Shack. Rob. Does it make any difference if
the Pacers have Antonio Davis that year? You know, I
was always thinking that because Antonio Davis was a beast

(40:30):
in the paint, great defender in the post, it might
have made a difference. But at the end of the day,
I don't think they had enough firepower to beat us.
I know, Reggie Miller was really playing at a high level,
even though he didn't have a good Game one, and
the nine talked about who was always on the run
of his mouth, Jalen Rose, You know, but Jayleen Rose
was actually leading scored that year, and nobody talks about

(40:53):
it because it was Reggie's team. But I just still
think at the end of the day that I think
we were just too big and too bad for them
real quick, because I didn't I didn't mention it. Shack
stats in that final six game series against the Pacers
Shack average thirty eight points, sixteen point seven rebounds, two
point three assists a stealer game, and two point seven
blocks a game. Uh, all while shooting from the field

(41:19):
like that? Like that? No one does that. But Howard,
this is the most interesting thing, and nobody's perfect um.
It was the stats saying that Shaq would have hit
all of his free those, he would have averaged fifty
one points in that series. Ain't that crazy? If he'd
have made all his free those have been pressed from three,
he would have averaged He went thirty six for nine

(41:43):
three from the line in that series. Damn, thirty eight
point seven percent. I had not done the math on that,
rob that, Uh, that's amazing. You would have averaged over
forty points. I mean, what's the last time anybody averaged
thirty eight in the finals. So only a few. Look,
I'll be honest with you, and I know I sound
like a broken record having mentioned this before, but for

(42:03):
me personally, and again no disrespect to anybody else that
played before him, but for what I've seen, that's the
most dominant performance in the finals. If you watch the games,
and even um Steve Javy said something in one of
the games and he was talking to Shack and said, well,
you know you hit him. Of course, look how big you'
He's gonna go flying. And at the end of the day,

(42:24):
if you get hit, I don't care who you are.
It's the file. And Shock just used to get beat up. Man.
You have the one play with Travis Best tries to
take shock head off, but he takes the blunt of
the of the blow and I'm like, dude, he think
about it. If Shaq wanted to, he could just fell
on top of said I'm ending you right now and

(42:44):
splashed you're a bug on the window. And I just think,
you know, and and and these refs never really put
it in their heads that, yo, this dude is taking
a beating just because he's big enough to take the
beat them. And he had to take the beating, but
he took it in a lot of way. What about
the best role player? I mean, I I'm I'm asking

(43:04):
just the first it was. It was Austin Crozier. You know,
game won and game two I was like, Okay, who
is this dude? I'm like, and then I had to
figure him out even though he got buckets. But between
three four and five, I kind of, you know, gut
him under control where he wasn't just blowing by me
because he going out. I'm like, I'm not gonna I'm
going a little Kaki. I'm like, who in the hell

(43:24):
is Austin croz here? You know, but the guy came
a big he was He was me their m v
P because he stepped up when he was a guy
that s been on the roster. But that awesome crow
sire was my guy, Austin Crozier. Wow, he has been
really aggressive. They've gone to him and at low poets
that whoever it's guarded him, he's been able to get

(43:45):
the advantage. What a big left off the bench bob
he's been for these pacers. Howard do you agree is
the Santa Monarchy kid Austin Crozier. I mean, listen, uh,
Rob creep if I'm wrong, wasn't didn't he like Travis
Best to have like a nice little two man game
going off the bench. That just drove you guys crazy. Yeah,
Travis would come in, he would do his thing. But
the thing about we knew about Travis he he was

(44:06):
he was one of those guards that will be playing
in the day's age because all he want to do
was dribble, dribble, dribble, and that's what he would do.
You know. He would try to drible and get his
off and he kind of he he wasn't a point
guard that could get people to make people around him
better as a point guard to look for his first
because Travis Best just him to run the point replacing
Mark Jackson, and Derek Fisher is guarding him, and Best
gives him instant offense. He's just a little guy, only

(44:28):
five eleven, but he's very adept at doing what he
just saw him do. When confronted by a bigger defender,
in this case, the biggest shot, he can love it,
shot high and he's accurate with them. He would We
always talk about if people have played in this day
and age, there had been great He was one of
those guys that we don't talk about but he was
fantastic at gil going to the whole. He had great handles,
he could shoot it. But yeah, Travis Best and Austin

(44:50):
Crozer with two guys be really worried about coming off
that bench. So to a Rob's point about Crozer, he
did average fifteen points and six rebounds in the series
coming off the bench in twenty four. It's the games,
I mean, Crosher was. He was really good and he
could step out and shoot it too. I was gonna
go with Glenn Rice like it was a funky fit.
Glenn Rice with the Lakers. Um, he wanted a lot
more touches, as as he would say often, as as

(45:14):
his wife actually said in the middle of the series
at one point in a column by Bill Plaski, I
believe in the times. Um, So Glenn Glenn wanted to
get his He was not the best fit. They offloaded
him that offseason, but his three point shooting was key
the spacing he provided. He was their third leading score
behind Shack and Kobe. So, um, you know, probably Glenn,
if you're going with taking the role player off the

(45:36):
winning team, all right, let's go. Let's go ahead and
move on. What about the coaching matchup. I don't I
really don't think there's much here. Yeah, I mean, look,
you know, Larry Larry Bird was young in his career
and Phil Jackson was Phil Jackson had six rings on
his way to his seventh. Right, Is there any discussion? Yeah,
there's no disgusting his Larry Barry was just there. He's like,
this is my last year. I'm only going to coach
three years. Why would you put someone in that position anyway,

(45:57):
going up against the great Phil Jacks. So as goes
to Phil Jackson all the way? All right, fair enough?
And the namesake this is the big Shot, Bob Award.
Who's who's the most clutch player of the series. It
has to be Kobe Bryant in Game four. I think
that took us to a point where he elevated to
a superstar status even though he was a SuperStar's put

(46:18):
him in the upper extra line. And I think I
give Kobe the Big Shot a war because at Game
four was crucial. Um, it put us up three one,
and it kind of gave us a cushion, you know,
even though we have been up three one the previous series.
But at least it gave us a cushion in order
to get our minds right and get ready. But I
go with Kobe Bryant. So Kobe is gonna win two
awards right now. Rob gave him the big Shot Bob Award.

(46:40):
I'm gonna give him the big Shot Robert Ward because
I refused to call Robert ry Bob fair enough, fair enough.
Twenty five years of this, I'm still not like, I'm sorry,
it's not bigot. I'm just I'm not going there. Um,
Kobe is the clutch player of the series for sure.
That Game four was absolutely epic. It was career defighting
at that moment. It's set the table for everything that

(47:02):
would come later in Kobe's career, about his poise, about
his clutch nous, about his ability to rise to the
occasion on the biggest stage at the most important times.
And I went back and looked at my story from
that night, which is always kind of a fun trip
down memory lane, and there's two quotes that left out,
one from Shock and one from Kobe that I want
to close with. So Shaq talking about having fouled out

(47:23):
in this, you know, in this overtime with the series
kind of hanging in the balance and Shaq said, I
have a tremendous amount of confidence in my team. But
Kobe he winked at me. He was like, don't worry
about it. Shack makes up a lot of stuff, as
we know, but I think Kobe probably did wink at
him and say, don't worry about it. Rob, Do you
actually remember anything along those lines? No, I don't. It
it's just so it's just so weird that you know Shack.

(47:45):
You know, he embellisces a lot and we love his
story because it makes it great. But I don't it's
so many times that things like this happened. You locked
in and you focused on your stuff and your moment
and trying to do was right for the team, that
you missed things like that. I could totally see Kobe
doing that though, Like I don't know what wink but
telling shock check don't worry, big fellow. I got this
is absolutely a thing Kobe would say. And then the
final quote in my story from that night, um, I

(48:09):
note for the for the Pacers to steal the title,
they would have to win three straight, the last two
at Staples Center, and the Lakers have not lost three
in a row all season. And then I ended with
this quote from Kobe in our mind, Bryant said, this
is the championship. Like he knew. Kobe closed out that
game in game four overtime. That was it, he knew.
And yeah, you guys lost game five pretty badly. Uh,

(48:29):
but you you wanted In game six, Kobe jumps into
Shack's arms. The rest is history. And see, Fred, I'm
a little upset right now because you don't you don't talk.
You just suppose have mentioned how that overtime started. I
started overtime. Oh, with the first to man. Robert Or
hit the first two shots, the first four points of overtime.

(48:52):
I think Kobe scored all the rest of the points. Okay, hey, yes, no,
Rob did but listen, all right, Rob, I did omit that.
But I also left out the miss free throw down
the stretch and turn over, the turnover when you're trying
to throw the ball to Shock. And then Phil Barking
got you that you should have called time out. Hey,
it's so funny. It's the inside story right here. It

(49:12):
was Glenn Rice on the post and Glenn Rice as
I was throwing it goes the rooting back. I'm like why,
And then Phiel tells me. You should have called time out.
You know how to tell us you have post you
called a time out. It's Robert. They look for shock
and throw it away. Pill Jackson said to Robert Ory,

(49:37):
call it time out. Why panic? We got the basketball.
You want to get a shot at the basket. Now
here goes and it looks like Indiana was dead. They've
got the ball to win the game. My view was
screened for a second. They were actually trying to post
Rice down low. In any case, they lost it and
the Pacers will have a chance to win it. Look,
you could have called it time about too, So it

(49:59):
was fun. Man. That is spectaculor Howard, thank you so
much for joining us today before we before you get
out of here, can you let the folks know where
they can find the crossover in all of your incredible work. Yeah,
of course, crossover podcast. Find it at all the usual
places Spotify, Apple Podcasts, all that stuff. A crossover pod
with myself and Chris Mannox. Got to get my man
Robert Ry on there soon and uh all my written

(50:21):
work of course at s A dot com. And you
can find me on Twitter at Howard Beck. Guys, this
has been a blank you thank you so much, Thank
you for it, Thank you Howard may I, Thank you guys.