June 26, 2025 • 37 mins
Newt talks with Yaakov Katz, former editor-in-chief of The Jerusalem Post, about President Trump's decision to deploy B-2 bombers to strike Iranian nuclear facilities, leading to a ceasefire between Israel and Iran. Their discussion examines the implications of these bombings on Middle Eastern geopolitics, Israel's military strategy, and the potential for lasting peace. Katz highlights the historic nature of the U.S. and Israeli military actions, the strategic dismantling of Iran's nuclear capabilities, and the broader impact on regional stability. They also talk about the challenges of achieving regime change in Iran, the role of Sunni Arab states, and the future of Gaza post-conflict. Katz emphasizes the need for a new governing entity in Gaza and the importance of deradicalization for lasting peace.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
On this episode of Nuts World. President Trump's decision to
use B two bunker buster bombs on three key Iranian
nuclear facilities over the weekend brought a ceasefire of the
conflict between Israel and Aram. But will the cease fire
last and how has the conflict begun to reshape the
Middle East? Here to discuss Israel's reaction to the US
(00:27):
bombings and the ceasefire agreement, I'm really pleased to welcome
back my guest, yakovkats. He is the former editor in
chief of the Jerusalem Post, author of the upcoming book
While Israel Slept Alhamas Surprised, the most powerful military in
the Middle East, which is available for pre order now,
and he is I think one of the most insightful
(00:48):
and remarkably informed analyst on the entire region. Yakoff, welcome
and thank you for joining me again on NEWTS World.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
It's great to be with you, mister speaker.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So let's begin with from an American perspective, the biggest headline,
which is President Trump authorizing B two bombers to strike
the Iranian nuclear facilities. What was your reaction when you
heard the news?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, I thought that when the President made that decision,
and those B two bombers flew from Missouri all the
way to the Middle East into Iran and dropped those
GBU fifty seven bunker busters over Fordeaux, the secret Enrichmond
facility that Iran had built into a mountain near the
city of Coombe, as well as over Natans, the main
(01:46):
enrichment uranium and Richmond facility, and then some Tomahawk missiles
from submarines that were parked off the coast of Iran.
To me, it was a historic day because what it
showed was, finally there's a president who, after so many
who have promised over the years not to allow Iran
to obtain a nuclear weapon, and had consistently and constantly
(02:08):
taken that red line. We won't let them in rich uranium.
And then when they enriched uranium, we said, we'll only
let them in rich uranium to low levels. And then
when it went to twenty percent, the world said, well,
not to sixty percent. And then when it went to
sixty percent, the world said, well not to ninety percent.
And finally someone understood that what was happening here and
this was what was obvious to everyone, and you know this,
(02:29):
Sir is that there is no uranium enrichment to sixty
percent unless it is for a nuclear bomb. And it
was time for the Uranians to be taught that they
cannot continue to recavoc in the world with their proxy
army and to illicitly try to obtain a nuclear weapon.
And I think that what the President did will go
(02:51):
down in history as a projection of power, but also
as an important lesson to rogue states that they can't
get away with trying to develop weapons of mass destructs.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It was fascinating to me that in the initial campaign,
and I thought there was a certain artistry to Trump
offering around sixty days to come to the table, and
on the sixty first day Israel struck. I'm presuming that
net Yahoo and Trump had some kind of understanding. I
thought the Israeli military and the Israeli intelligence service collaborated
(03:25):
with astonishing effectiveness. Well, weren't you a little surprised at
how thoroughly they came to dominate the region and how
decisively they were targeting specific key revolutionary guard and other
military leaders.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
One hundred percent. We had been hearing about Israeli planning
for a potential strike against Iran for about the larger
part of the last twenty five years. And we know
that in that period Israel has attacked serious nuclear reactor.
You and I have spoken about this in the past,
and Israel back in nineteen eighty one famously destroyed the
(04:01):
oc Rak reactor outside of Baghdad that Sadam Hussein was building.
But for Iran it was really it was a long
time of planning and of Israel considering its options and
really preferring diplomacy. But over the years it perfected a
strike package, really the likes of something that I don't
think we ever could have imagined. I mean, if we
(04:22):
look at what happened on June thirteenth, when Israel launched
its attack, it split up its targets into three different categories.
Category number one was taking out all the air defense
systems in Iran, basically open up the skies, take control
of Iranian airspace. I call it not aeriel superiority. Aerial
(04:43):
sovereignty is what Israel created over Iran by taking out
all of the missile defense systems, all the radar installations.
Basically what it allowed for. I mean, think about this.
We had twelve days of operations over fifteen hundred Israeli
Air Force sorties over Iran, not a single plane shot down.
I mean, it's remarkable, right when you think about what
(05:05):
Israel was up against in the run up to all
of this, so that itself is a remarkable accomplishment. The
second category was the ballistic missile stockpiles and launchers. Iran
does not have an air force. Its air force is outdated,
it's antiqued. It's based on old planes that have bought
from the United States, like phantoms back in the nineteen seventies,
(05:27):
before the Islamic Revolution in seventy nine. It's got some
Russian aircraft, but nothing that really presents a challenge to
a formidable air force like the Israeli one. So what
they had invested all of their money and scientific research
in was ballistic missiles, and they've developed sophisticated ballistic missiles.
Before this operation they had about three thousand of them
(05:49):
and maybe another five six hundred launchers. And by the way,
they had planned to launch hundreds of ballistic missiles at
a time. It is in total, over twelve days, they
were able to fire five hundred missiles into Israel, ninety
percent of those intercepted by Israeli missile defense systems backed
(06:11):
by the American THAD that had been deployed here already
during the war that erupted after October seven, and Age's
ships that were also docked off the coast of Israel
and the Mediterranean, the East med that also helped in
the interceptions. So you saw also the degrading and the
weakening of their missile capability. Within that category was also
(06:33):
this remarkable operation called Operation Narnia, where the Israeli Air Forced,
together with its intelligence services, took out in the span
of just a few minutes, fifteen of the top nuclear
scientists in Iran, the ones who were working on the
most sophisticated and complicated components of a nuclear weapon, as
well as commander of the Iranian Military, commander of the
(06:57):
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the IERGC, command of the Air
Defense Systems, commander of the Air Force, and a bunch
of slew of other top military commanders. Over twenty top
military commanders in Iran knocked off. What that does is
it disrupts. It creates chaos in the whole chain of
command and in the command and control system. So who
(07:19):
gives the orders? What do we do who attacks, how
do we attack? And then, of course was the third category.
Once you created aerial sovereignty, once you've disrupted their offensive
capabilities and their ability to command and control themselves, then
the Israel started to go after the nuclear sites. And
again it's focus, and this is important for people to understand,
(07:40):
its focus was not on removing Iran's nuclear program. There's
a reactor, for example, called Boucher, which is a nuclear
reactor that the Uranians still have. Israel to not attack
that reactor, that's a civilian energy reactor, let them have it.
Israel's focus was on the uranium enrichment program because that
has only one perpose, and that is for the purpose
(08:02):
of nuclear weapons. So it went after three key facilities,
the same ones that Donald Trump ordered the B twos
to bomb Natans. The main enrichment facility where thousands of
centrifuges are located in multiple chambers on multiple levels underground,
the four doaux facility, which Israel had difficulty penetrating on
(08:23):
its own, it was unclear how it was going to
do that. And the third facility is Isfahan where they
did the uranium conversion. So they took the raw uranium
turned it into the gas that was fed to the centrifuges,
got it back from the centrifuges, and eventually would have
turned it into the metal, which is what would make
a nuclear bomb. So those three categories and you look
(08:44):
at what Israel was able to do. It's a pretty
remarkable operation.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Given the Israeli air dominance. To what extent did you
actually need the US to come in with his very
heavy bombs.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Look, Israel has very impressive capabilities, but Israel's aircraft and
its bombs, its bunker busters, are not the most advanced
in the world. The most advanced in the world are
the B two bombers and the GBU fifty sevens, what
(09:18):
are also known as the MOPS. The massive ordinance penetrator.
It's about a thirteen ton bomb that has the ability
to penetrate as deep as about one hundred feet if
not more. The four Daux facility, which is built into
a mountain, and it's unclear exactly how deep down it is.
The Ranians don't exactly publish their blueprints online, but we
(09:39):
have heard from Raphael Grossi, who is the Director General
of the IEA, the UNS nuclear watchdog. He has said
that it's about half a mile underground. Other intelligence estimates
talk about it being anywhere from about you know, eighty
ninety to one hundred and fifty meters, so about let's say,
you know, two hundred yards or so underground. Whatever it is,
it's very deep into a mountain top. What we've seen
(10:03):
if we look at satellite images, we see that there
are access roads, two access roads that go into a mountain,
but then the facilities deeper inside the mountain. So how
to penetrate a mountain is not something that's so easy
to do. That's number one. Number two is Natans Well.
Israel's bunker busters were able to penetrate definitely the first
(10:25):
levels of the underground chambers. There was the lowest level
that there were some questions of whether Israeli bombs were
able to get in there. One thing that Israel did do,
and the IAEA even said this, was that Israel bombed
the power plant that was feeding the electrical current to
the centrifuges in Natans, and that likely caused damage to
(10:47):
the centrifuges themselves. Just so people understand, centrifuges these kind
of steel, round, circular looking machines where the uranium spins around.
They're very delicate, so any little change to their motor
or their rodder, or even the electrical current could knock
them out. But it's all better to have complete destruction.
(11:07):
And as the President himself has said, the B two bombers,
together with the Israelis, succeeded in obliterating. So after all
the damage that Israel did came the B two bombers.
They dropped a dozen there were seven in total, six
of them each carrying two bombs. Two GBU fifty seven
six dropped their twelve payload of bombs into the mountain
(11:30):
where four dose located. One of the aircraft dropped two
bombs into Natans, and then the Tomahawks were fired, also
at Natans, but also at Isfahan. Again, we don't have
images of what's happening inside, and the Ranis of course
wanted downplay it and pretend as if the damage was
not extensive. But when you look at the satellite imagery
and you see literally like someone punctured a hole in
(11:53):
a mountain, you can just imagine what's going on beneath
that and underground and Israeli intelligence assessment for what they're worth,
and I think they're worth something after what we've seen,
claimed that the destruction is extensive, that Iran's nuclear program
has been set back by a number of years.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Unlike the President, I frankly favor regime change because I
think as long as you have a theocratic dictatorship, the
chance death to America and death Israel, they're going to
come back and try to rebuild.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
I totally agree with you, and I think that what
we have to keep in mind here is that while
Israel and America have destroyed infrastructure, buildings, underground facilities, they
have not destroyed the ambition, the desire, the motive, evation,
and the ideology to obtain a nuclear weapon. And I'll
(13:03):
say even more than that, if I was the supreme
leader now of Iran, the Ayatola Ali Kramanai, and I
would say to myself, what is my lesson from this
whole experience. I need nuclear weapons because nuclear weapons would
give me immunity. Why has no one ever attacked Pyongyang,
North Korea because they have nuclear weapons so they have immunity.
(13:24):
Why has the world not been able to enforce a
no fly zone over Ukraine in the war with Russia
because Russia has nuclear weapons? So if I'm Kramenai, my
conclusion is I actually need to move faster to get
the nuclear weapons. And I'll say one other thing, mister speaker,
is that if we look at the two previous models
(13:44):
or examples when Israel took out nuclear reactors, one of
them was an eighty one, the Osirak reactor I mentioned
that was built for Iraq by the French in two
thousand and seven. The Al ki Bar reactor that Pashar
al Assad was building in northeastern Syria was being built
for or Syria by North Korea. Once each of those
reactors was destroyed, for the Iraqis or the Syrians to rebuild,
(14:08):
they would have required the French again or the North
Koreans again. They did not have a domestic, indigenous scientific
or academic nuclear physicist infrastructure. They didn't have people of
their own who could do it, so they would need
to call up their friends and say, hey, can you come.
That's another level and layer of complexity and challenge Iran.
(14:30):
It's all local, domestic, indigenous. They have the knowledge now. Yes,
part of the delay is the fact that Israel handpicked
key nuclear scientists and took them out, and they have
been eliminated, and those people, let's say, were the centers
of excellence and the knowledge of certain components. That will
delay them. But knowledge also can be replaced because they
(14:52):
have the academic infrastructure, they have others who have some
of that knowledge, they'll be able to rebuild. So everything
can be rebuilt and everything can be replaced. So therefore,
we really have only two ways to get the Iranians
not to rebuild. One of them is exactly what you said.
It's regime change. It's for the Iranian people to rise
(15:14):
up and topple this violent, oppressive regime. By the way
we've seen over the years, how they have tried right.
This isn't They're not doing a favor to Israel or
the United States. They want freedom because this regime is
violent and oppressive to them. Hangs people from cranes in
downtown Tehran because of a sexual preference, beats women on
(15:35):
the streets of Iran because they don't cover their hair
the right way with a head scarf, throws political dissonance journalists,
and the infamous ev In prison that is rolled by
the way bomb the gates of it during this operation,
just as a symbolic message to the Iranian people. But
hopefully the Iranian people will be able to take advantage
(15:56):
of this opportunity, will gain some confidence to do that.
But there's also one other all alternative, another option per
se to try to prevent this rebuilding, and that is
a new nuclear deal. And we're starting to see and
hear that the President has dispatched his envoy to the
Middle East, Steve Whitcoff, to try and get those talks again,
(16:17):
going with the Iranian foreign minister. They had held five
rounds of negotiations prior to June thirteenth Winters who launched
its attack, and a new deal which Iran comes too weaker,
could potentially get Iran to agree to a deal that
they won't have enrichment in Iran. And if that happens,
that they don't have enrichment in Iran, we will have
bought a longer period and have created a safer and
(16:39):
more stable Middle East.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Do you think there's any possibility as part of this
conversation that they can be convinced to cut off their
support for their various puppets.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I hope, because the people tend to and this is
an important point you're making. People tend to think about
Iran just through the prism of their nuclear program. But
the fact is that Iran is also the greatest state
sponsor of terrorism. I mean what Israel came under attack
on October seventh when the Hamas invaded this country. Of course,
(17:12):
it was a great failure by Israel's intelligence services, by
the military, by the government for enacting policies that were wrong,
and we now know they were wrong. But this was
orchestrated by Iran when his BLAT's most important proxy, the
one that had invested billions every year into started firing
(17:32):
missiles the next day, on October eighth. This was also
per the instructions of the Iranian patrons and the Huthis.
As we're recording this, mister speaker, just a few hours ago,
there was a boothy missile and UAV that was intercepted
on its way to Israel. So we're after a ceasefire
and its proxy in Yemen is still launching projectiles and
(17:54):
explosive drones at this country. I would hope that that
will be part of any negotiation. I would hope that
to be part of any talk that will happen. But
I also think that word today in a new Middle
East October seventh was a great failure. But that's only
one side of the coin. In the post October seventh reality,
(18:14):
Israel has re engineered the Middle East. Let's look at
what's happened. His Billah is beaten back. It's leader hasan astrala.
He was like the Bin Laden of this region, the
most infamous, deadliest, ruthless terrorist leader. He was killed, His
successor was killed. His successor's successor was killed by Israel.
(18:34):
They lost their long range missile capability, and everyone by
now knows about the famous beeper attack that the Israeli
Mossad launched against his Blah Camas, which unfortunately still holds
our hostages. But Camas has been beaten. It has no
real capability to launch an attack inside Israel. And even
during a war with Iran over twelve days, his block
(18:56):
comes out in public. He says, you know what, we're
not getting involved. Who would have imagined that was possible.
I mean, I've been writing about this stuff for twenty
five years. Okay, every briefing I would go to in
the Israeli military and the Israeli intelligence offices, they would
always say, look, when we attack Iran, it's a fate
complained that his blow is going to attack us too. Well,
that didn't happen, and not to mention by that, I
forgot to say, Asad's gone, his military's gone. Now you're right,
(19:20):
we have a new guy there. We don't know who
he is, Ahmed Shahra al Julani. Is he good? Is
he bad? He was a former al Kaeda jihadist. Time
will tell, but there's amazing opportunity to say so. Iran
is beat in badly, its proxies are weak, it's nuclear
program degraded. Hopefully this new deal would include all of
that together.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Don't you think the Sunni Arab states collectively we're all
delighted by this outcome.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Without a doubt. Publicly, we have to understand they have
public opinion, they have people on their streets. They're not
always going to be the most pro Israel, so they
have to condemn and I think Israel understands that. But
privately speaking, I mean I can tell you just anecdotally,
I have spoken over the last two weeks since this
(20:09):
has been going on with people from states in the
golf that Israel has relations with, and with people from
states in the Golf that Israel does not have relations
with senior people who we're sending messages of support. We're
talking about enhancing and strengthening the relations with Israel at
a time that we're bombing in Iran because they understand
(20:33):
something very simple. Israel is doing work that they need
done because Iran is a threat to them, no less
than it is a threat to Israel. Iran tries to
undermine those Sunni states, the UAE, the Saudi's Bahrain Cutter,
all these other countries, Egypt and Jordan as well. Right, people,
(20:53):
this kind of flew under the radar. But Israel had
to close its airspace during the twelve days of this operation,
couldn't really let planes take off, couldn't let planes land,
mostly because it knew that if the Iranians know that
Benurian Airport, our international airport near Tel Aviv is going
to be getting planes in and out, they'll hit it
with missiles, and God forbid one of those missiles hits
(21:15):
a plane, right, that would be very bad. So you
had about fifty sixty thousand Israelis going through the land
borders with Egypt and with Jordan quietly, peacefully, no problems.
I mean, these are Arab countries. Why aren't they closing
their borders with Israel during a time like this, right,
they should be standing with their Iranian allies. But that's
(21:37):
the truth. The Iranians are not their allies. The Iranians
are the dangerous actor in this region, and they understand it.
And I think that this is why this really has
so much immense opportunity. What has happened here, what it
presents us in this region, and where we can go
from here. And this is really it's to the credit
of Prime Minister Nitanio for taking this courageous decision, and
(22:00):
I think greatly to the credit of the President for
deciding to join this and really send this collective message
to the world and especially to this region that we
can build up so much amazing opportunities from here.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I was doing Sean Hannity's radio show the other day
and he said that he had a whole number of
sources that said we had somehow managed to put non
existent aircraft on the Iranian system, which I assumed was
a cyber capability, so that they were actually looking at
airplanes that didn't exist when they couldn't see the airplanes
(22:36):
that did exist. And I thought all of that was
just sort of the world that we're entering.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
The technology that we've seen or we've heard of being
used and employed during the last twelve days, many stories
will still be written about it. The spoofing, that's what
Sean Hannity is talking about, of presenting on a radar
machine something that doesn't really exist, is a capability that
(23:02):
Israel has developed over the years and is a way
to blind your enemy so it does not know exactly
what's really happening, which aircraft are really coming, and then
destroys your radar installations. But what we've seen also with
the Mosad operation on the ground, in addition to the
Israeli Air Force, which did a remarkable job, the Mossad
had built up a network of agents in Iran who
(23:27):
deployed drones. It had basically created a drone explosive factory
in Iran, and these drones were deployed on that June
thirteenth day and took out missile defense systems, took out
radar systems, and took out other capabilities. And then also
there were reports that the radians were spreading of white
(23:48):
pickup trucks that were traveling throughout the streets of Tehran
and were apparently dropping off explosive devices at the homes
of different people. Now, even whether that's true or not
about the truck, the fact that it sowed such fear
within Iran tells you everything. And I've been asked a
few times and I don't know the answer to this.
(24:10):
Were these Israeli agents? Were the Iranians or were they
someone else? I think what we have to assume, and
you know this, Sir, is that with intelligence agencies like
the CIA, like the MOSAD, like the really good ones,
sometimes when they operate somewhere they operate, Israeli agents go
and do it. American agents go and do it. Sometimes
they hire local people to do it for them. But
(24:32):
sometimes they could even have people who are doing it
for them who don't even know they're doing it for them.
They could actually be thinking they're doing it for someone
else when they're actually doing it on the behalf of Visral,
on behalf of the United States.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Well, I mean the entire project with Hesbo Lah where
they undercut the market price in order to get them
to buy the devices.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, from a company in Taiwan who didn't even know
the person who sold it in Taiwan and established an
office in Romania, had no clue that they were even
working for the Mossad. It's basically the career of an
alternative reality, a Hollywood production that the people involved don't
even know that they are actors in this. So again,
I don't know. It could be that these were Israeli
(25:11):
agents on the ground. There's a good reason we don't know,
by the way, because these people have to be protected,
whether they were as Raeli or they were not. But
it's never as simple as we might think it to be.
And it really shows just how impressive how much was
invested in each of these targets and identifying, in locating.
I mean, I'll tell you something else, these nuclear scientists
(25:31):
or the IRGC commanders. If you looked at some of
those bombings on that initial day, you saw that like
they dropped a bomb into a window in an apartment
building on the fifth floor, right, they didn't take out
the whole building. They took out the room and the corner,
like the southwest corner. That means they had to know
which apartment the guy lives in, where his bedroom is
(25:52):
located in the apartment, and where his bed is probably
is it on this side of the room or that
side of the room, because they got to make sure
the bomb goes into the room. And it's a level
of granular intelligence detail that we kind of take for granted,
but now that we think about it, how much has
to be invested. People have to work on each one
(26:12):
of these targets over a period of time. You have
to track them, you have to learn and study what
they do, where they go, who they meet with. It's
incredible the detail of what has been able to be
obtained here.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
I thought the project where they planted a bomb in
the Islamic Revolutionary Guard guesthouse in the room which they
assumed sooner or later a leader of Hamas would be
a guest.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
You smell Hania.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, if you think through the complexities of that. At
that moment, I thought, if if I were the Iranians,
I would have a very deep sense of insecurity.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
And it could be anywhere. And that's exactly the point.
And that's why I do think that the President to
some extent is right. When I heard him speak at
the NATO summit when he was asked, well, what if
they rebuilt, and he said, they're not going to rebuild,
And you know, he said that with a lot of confidence,
and I hope he's right. But I do think is
that if you are the supreme leader, and despite everything
(27:26):
we've said before, that you're less than your conclusion is
you need the nuclear weapon. But on the other hand,
you now know that they know everything about you, that
they are everywhere they've being Israel in the United States,
and that they can get you no matter where you are.
Do you really want to do it?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
There's a brief moment where Trump talked about making Iran
great again, But I've talked to several Iranian American billionaires
who are very interested in finding a way ultimately to
help create a dramatically more prosperous and desirable Iran. And
I do wonder. And I noticed in the last few
days that the Israelis had begun to shift towards much
(28:04):
more focus on the security apparatus, having done the work
they were doing on the missiles and the nuclear capability.
And I do wonder whether or not, at some point,
either in a split between the Islamic Revolutionary Guard and
the army or just a sheer mass effort by the
people at large, it may not be possible to move
(28:24):
beyond the current dictatorship.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
What the Israelis did to an extent, they focused on
those initial targets that we spoke about, you know, missile defense,
ballistic missiles, and of course nuclear, But after those main
targets were neutralized, they began to also focus on some
of the regime targets, military targets and others. And the
idea here was to weaken some of those regime I
(28:47):
would say arrays and capabilities, whether it's the IERGC or
the besiege which is kind of their more local domestic
force that literally beats up people on the streets. That
was aimed at trying to give the Uranian people some
hope that they can actually go out to the streets
and try to bring down this regime. One of the
important points that Israel has made, I think consistently throughout
(29:09):
this operation was that our issue is not with the
people of Iran. The people of Iran are friends. The
people of Iran, we share a rich mutual history, the
Persian culture and the history of the Persian peoples. They're
an ancient people really, of amazing capabilities and history. But
the problem is they've been taken hostage by this radical
(29:29):
Islamic entity and these iatolas, the mulahs. I mean, you know,
you remember, mister speaker, how before the revolution of seventy nine,
Israel had an embassy into Tehran, right, I mean we
were all doing business together. We had good friends there,
they had good friends here. I mean that all changed
when Homani came back from Paris and really took that
country in a whole different direction. And I think that
(29:50):
that's what gives a lot of people hope, is that
the Uraanian people still for the most part, want to
come back to the fold. They want to be part
of the free worl old, and hopefully they can break
free of this reign of terror and these tyrants who
have been ruling them.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Well, that's our hope. Let me ask you one last topic,
which is very different, and I think maybe one of
the hardest problems Israel faces. How do you ultimately get
to stability in Gaza?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
It is still connected because the hope right now in
Israel is that by weakening Iran, and Iran was the supplier,
the funder, the provider to Ramas. By weakening Iran, you
further isolate Ramas, and now Hamas is even more isolated,
and therefore the hope is that we can reach a
(30:42):
deal that will see the fifty hostages return. Twenty of
them are believed to still be alive. The rest are
unfortunately tragically no longer among the living. But Israel still
fights to get back even the bodies of these hostages
who have been held by Hamas for nearly two years.
But really, then the question becomes, Okay, even if you've
done that, how do you prevent Ramas from rebuilding? I mean,
(31:02):
get similar questions and dilemmas to what we were just
talking about. And here what's really needed is the creation
of a new governing entity in Gaza. I think everyone
understands that. The question is though, who will be that
governing entity be? And this is where it gets really
complicated because the current coalition in Israel, led by Nasenia,
(31:24):
who in including some of the more right wing far
right parties in Israel, refuse to even talk about the
prospect or possibility that the Palestinian authority led by Mahmudubas
in Ramala will have any role in the day after
in Gaza. On the other hand, the Amordis and the
Egyptians and the Saudis say if they're instant, the Palestinians,
(31:45):
We're not going to come and help, so you're kind
of stuck. And that's the bit of the conundrum at
the moment. I think that Nizzenia, who understands that there
really is not an alternative, and I think that hopefully
he will show the same courage that he showed when
launching this attack on June thirteenth against Iran. He has
(32:05):
the opportunity now to show that same courage and end
this war in Gaza and not only give Israelis the
opportunity to heal, because it's difficult for this country to
move on. You know, we're talking on a day that
seven soldiers were announced killed in Gaza. Terrible tragedy, young
Israeli soldiers, but the Palestinians have also suffered a great tragedy.
(32:27):
We can't ignore that, right, you know, I think it's
Kamas's fault, but the people of Gaza suffer and they
deserve a better future as well. So Gaza has to
be rehabilitated and rebuilt, and for that we need a
new government and I don't want to see Israel do it,
and I don't think Israel wants to do it, right,
We don't want to have control of that place. It's
a place that's not friendly to us, but we need
(32:48):
to ensure that it is a government though, that is
going to not just rebuild and not just govern, but
also deradicalize. That has to be a piece of this.
And if we can really lead to a deradicalization, that
would change textbooks, would change, newspapers, would change culture, would
change the way they talk about us. And that's going
to be tough, but it can be done. The opportunities
(33:11):
have no limits, because that's how you achieve real peace.
We got to deradicalize. So there's a lot of moving
parts here. But I think that we need to come
aus to agree to ceasefire. We need to come as
to give us back the hostages, and we need our
government in Jerusalem to accept the reality that whether we
like it or not, there's going to have to be
some Palestinian guy who's involved in the day after in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Last question, how likely do you think it is that
the ceasefire will hold or is this just a temporary pause.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I think it will hold as long as Iran does
not try and rebuild, or we don't get intelligence that
shows that they're working on a bomb somewhere in the basement.
Israel has achieved its goals of this operation, and that
was to set back Iran's nuclear pro for a number
of years, and that seems to have been achieved. But
(34:03):
the Iranians now the ball's in their court. And I
think that that's why it's so important that the president
doesn't lose focus, because sometimes that can't happen. You finish
one thing and you jump ready to the next thing.
I don't blame him, He's got a lot of different
balls up in the air all at once. But we're
not done yet with iron We need that follow up,
you know. And you know this, sir. You know, military
(34:25):
means really important. They can help get the job done,
but they're not alone going to get the job done.
You need to have that political process that does follow up.
And this is the opportunity. Now they're weak, they're hurt,
they're bleeding. Get them back to the table, squeeze them
for a better deal, give them some carrots along the way.
(34:46):
But you got that big stick you can still hold
and say to them, listen, if you guys don't play ball,
what you saw at those seven B two bombers and
those twelve or fourteen GBU fifty seven massive ordinance penetrators
is just the beginning in.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
The ability to crush the regime. We have massive capabilities
if we have to. This is I think potentially the
turning point which could potentially lead to a dramatically better
Middle East. I think we still have to roll up
our sleeves and recognize it. There's a lot of work
between here and getting an Iran which is sustainable as
(35:21):
a neighbor and not slipping back into the theocratic dictatorship's
desires to destroy Israel the United States. But I want
you to know Yokov, that I want to thank you
for joining and providing an update, and I will continue
to read virtually everything you write. And I want to
remind our listeners that your new book, While Israel Slept
how Hamas Surprise, The Most Powerful Military in the Least
(35:44):
is available for pre order from Amazon right now and
will be out this September. And once it comes out,
I'd love it if you could come back and discuss
both the book and wherever we are at that point
in the process. But thank you. You are a remarkably
helpful student of what's going on in the Middle East.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Thank you, sir. It's always a pleasure and honor to
be with you.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Thank you to my guest, Yakov Katz. You can learn
more about the Israel Iran conflict on our show page
at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Gagers three
sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsei Sloan. Our
researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was
created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at
(36:28):
Ganglishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newsworld, I hope you'll
go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five
stars and give us a review so others can learn
what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld consigner
for my three free weekly columns at Ginglestree sixty dot
com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.
On this episode of Nuts World. President Trump's decision to
use B two bunker buster bombs on three key Iranian
nuclear facilities over the weekend brought a ceasefire of the
conflict between Israel and Aram. But will the cease fire
last and how has the conflict begun to reshape the
Middle East? Here to discuss Israel's reaction to the US
(00:27):
bombings and the ceasefire agreement, I'm really pleased to welcome
back my guest, yakovkats. He is the former editor in
chief of the Jerusalem Post, author of the upcoming book
While Israel Slept Alhamas Surprised, the most powerful military in
the Middle East, which is available for pre order now,
and he is I think one of the most insightful
(00:48):
and remarkably informed analyst on the entire region. Yakoff, welcome
and thank you for joining me again on NEWTS World.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
It's great to be with you, mister speaker.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So let's begin with from an American perspective, the biggest headline,
which is President Trump authorizing B two bombers to strike
the Iranian nuclear facilities. What was your reaction when you
heard the news?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, I thought that when the President made that decision,
and those B two bombers flew from Missouri all the
way to the Middle East into Iran and dropped those
GBU fifty seven bunker busters over Fordeaux, the secret Enrichmond
facility that Iran had built into a mountain near the
city of Coombe, as well as over Natans, the main
(01:46):
enrichment uranium and Richmond facility, and then some Tomahawk missiles
from submarines that were parked off the coast of Iran.
To me, it was a historic day because what it
showed was, finally there's a president who, after so many
who have promised over the years not to allow Iran
to obtain a nuclear weapon, and had consistently and constantly
(02:08):
taken that red line. We won't let them in rich uranium.
And then when they enriched uranium, we said, we'll only
let them in rich uranium to low levels. And then
when it went to twenty percent, the world said, well,
not to sixty percent. And then when it went to
sixty percent, the world said, well not to ninety percent.
And finally someone understood that what was happening here and
this was what was obvious to everyone, and you know this,
(02:29):
Sir is that there is no uranium enrichment to sixty
percent unless it is for a nuclear bomb. And it
was time for the Uranians to be taught that they
cannot continue to recavoc in the world with their proxy
army and to illicitly try to obtain a nuclear weapon.
And I think that what the President did will go
(02:51):
down in history as a projection of power, but also
as an important lesson to rogue states that they can't
get away with trying to develop weapons of mass destructs.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It was fascinating to me that in the initial campaign,
and I thought there was a certain artistry to Trump
offering around sixty days to come to the table, and
on the sixty first day Israel struck. I'm presuming that
net Yahoo and Trump had some kind of understanding. I
thought the Israeli military and the Israeli intelligence service collaborated
(03:25):
with astonishing effectiveness. Well, weren't you a little surprised at
how thoroughly they came to dominate the region and how
decisively they were targeting specific key revolutionary guard and other
military leaders.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
One hundred percent. We had been hearing about Israeli planning
for a potential strike against Iran for about the larger
part of the last twenty five years. And we know
that in that period Israel has attacked serious nuclear reactor.
You and I have spoken about this in the past,
and Israel back in nineteen eighty one famously destroyed the
(04:01):
oc Rak reactor outside of Baghdad that Sadam Hussein was building.
But for Iran it was really it was a long
time of planning and of Israel considering its options and
really preferring diplomacy. But over the years it perfected a
strike package, really the likes of something that I don't
think we ever could have imagined. I mean, if we
(04:22):
look at what happened on June thirteenth, when Israel launched
its attack, it split up its targets into three different categories.
Category number one was taking out all the air defense
systems in Iran, basically open up the skies, take control
of Iranian airspace. I call it not aeriel superiority. Aerial
(04:43):
sovereignty is what Israel created over Iran by taking out
all of the missile defense systems, all the radar installations.
Basically what it allowed for. I mean, think about this.
We had twelve days of operations over fifteen hundred Israeli
Air Force sorties over Iran, not a single plane shot down.
I mean, it's remarkable, right when you think about what
(05:05):
Israel was up against in the run up to all
of this, so that itself is a remarkable accomplishment. The
second category was the ballistic missile stockpiles and launchers. Iran
does not have an air force. Its air force is outdated,
it's antiqued. It's based on old planes that have bought
from the United States, like phantoms back in the nineteen seventies,
(05:27):
before the Islamic Revolution in seventy nine. It's got some
Russian aircraft, but nothing that really presents a challenge to
a formidable air force like the Israeli one. So what
they had invested all of their money and scientific research
in was ballistic missiles, and they've developed sophisticated ballistic missiles.
Before this operation they had about three thousand of them
(05:49):
and maybe another five six hundred launchers. And by the way,
they had planned to launch hundreds of ballistic missiles at
a time. It is in total, over twelve days, they
were able to fire five hundred missiles into Israel, ninety
percent of those intercepted by Israeli missile defense systems backed
(06:11):
by the American THAD that had been deployed here already
during the war that erupted after October seven, and Age's
ships that were also docked off the coast of Israel
and the Mediterranean, the East med that also helped in
the interceptions. So you saw also the degrading and the
weakening of their missile capability. Within that category was also
(06:33):
this remarkable operation called Operation Narnia, where the Israeli Air Forced,
together with its intelligence services, took out in the span
of just a few minutes, fifteen of the top nuclear
scientists in Iran, the ones who were working on the
most sophisticated and complicated components of a nuclear weapon, as
well as commander of the Iranian Military, commander of the
(06:57):
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the IERGC, command of the Air
Defense Systems, commander of the Air Force, and a bunch
of slew of other top military commanders. Over twenty top
military commanders in Iran knocked off. What that does is
it disrupts. It creates chaos in the whole chain of
command and in the command and control system. So who
(07:19):
gives the orders? What do we do who attacks, how
do we attack? And then, of course was the third category.
Once you created aerial sovereignty, once you've disrupted their offensive
capabilities and their ability to command and control themselves, then
the Israel started to go after the nuclear sites. And
again it's focus, and this is important for people to understand,
(07:40):
its focus was not on removing Iran's nuclear program. There's
a reactor, for example, called Boucher, which is a nuclear
reactor that the Uranians still have. Israel to not attack
that reactor, that's a civilian energy reactor, let them have it.
Israel's focus was on the uranium enrichment program because that
has only one perpose, and that is for the purpose
(08:02):
of nuclear weapons. So it went after three key facilities,
the same ones that Donald Trump ordered the B twos
to bomb Natans. The main enrichment facility where thousands of
centrifuges are located in multiple chambers on multiple levels underground,
the four doaux facility, which Israel had difficulty penetrating on
(08:23):
its own, it was unclear how it was going to
do that. And the third facility is Isfahan where they
did the uranium conversion. So they took the raw uranium
turned it into the gas that was fed to the centrifuges,
got it back from the centrifuges, and eventually would have
turned it into the metal, which is what would make
a nuclear bomb. So those three categories and you look
(08:44):
at what Israel was able to do. It's a pretty
remarkable operation.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Given the Israeli air dominance. To what extent did you
actually need the US to come in with his very
heavy bombs.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Look, Israel has very impressive capabilities, but Israel's aircraft and
its bombs, its bunker busters, are not the most advanced
in the world. The most advanced in the world are
the B two bombers and the GBU fifty sevens, what
(09:18):
are also known as the MOPS. The massive ordinance penetrator.
It's about a thirteen ton bomb that has the ability
to penetrate as deep as about one hundred feet if
not more. The four Daux facility, which is built into
a mountain, and it's unclear exactly how deep down it is.
The Ranians don't exactly publish their blueprints online, but we
(09:39):
have heard from Raphael Grossi, who is the Director General
of the IEA, the UNS nuclear watchdog. He has said
that it's about half a mile underground. Other intelligence estimates
talk about it being anywhere from about you know, eighty
ninety to one hundred and fifty meters, so about let's say,
you know, two hundred yards or so underground. Whatever it is,
it's very deep into a mountain top. What we've seen
(10:03):
if we look at satellite images, we see that there
are access roads, two access roads that go into a mountain,
but then the facilities deeper inside the mountain. So how
to penetrate a mountain is not something that's so easy
to do. That's number one. Number two is Natans Well.
Israel's bunker busters were able to penetrate definitely the first
(10:25):
levels of the underground chambers. There was the lowest level
that there were some questions of whether Israeli bombs were
able to get in there. One thing that Israel did do,
and the IAEA even said this, was that Israel bombed
the power plant that was feeding the electrical current to
the centrifuges in Natans, and that likely caused damage to
(10:47):
the centrifuges themselves. Just so people understand, centrifuges these kind
of steel, round, circular looking machines where the uranium spins around.
They're very delicate, so any little change to their motor
or their rodder, or even the electrical current could knock
them out. But it's all better to have complete destruction.
(11:07):
And as the President himself has said, the B two bombers,
together with the Israelis, succeeded in obliterating. So after all
the damage that Israel did came the B two bombers.
They dropped a dozen there were seven in total, six
of them each carrying two bombs. Two GBU fifty seven
six dropped their twelve payload of bombs into the mountain
(11:30):
where four dose located. One of the aircraft dropped two
bombs into Natans, and then the Tomahawks were fired, also
at Natans, but also at Isfahan. Again, we don't have
images of what's happening inside, and the Ranis of course
wanted downplay it and pretend as if the damage was
not extensive. But when you look at the satellite imagery
and you see literally like someone punctured a hole in
(11:53):
a mountain, you can just imagine what's going on beneath
that and underground and Israeli intelligence assessment for what they're worth,
and I think they're worth something after what we've seen,
claimed that the destruction is extensive, that Iran's nuclear program
has been set back by a number of years.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Unlike the President, I frankly favor regime change because I
think as long as you have a theocratic dictatorship, the
chance death to America and death Israel, they're going to
come back and try to rebuild.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
I totally agree with you, and I think that what
we have to keep in mind here is that while
Israel and America have destroyed infrastructure, buildings, underground facilities, they
have not destroyed the ambition, the desire, the motive, evation,
and the ideology to obtain a nuclear weapon. And I'll
(13:03):
say even more than that, if I was the supreme
leader now of Iran, the Ayatola Ali Kramanai, and I
would say to myself, what is my lesson from this
whole experience. I need nuclear weapons because nuclear weapons would
give me immunity. Why has no one ever attacked Pyongyang,
North Korea because they have nuclear weapons so they have immunity.
(13:24):
Why has the world not been able to enforce a
no fly zone over Ukraine in the war with Russia
because Russia has nuclear weapons? So if I'm Kramenai, my
conclusion is I actually need to move faster to get
the nuclear weapons. And I'll say one other thing, mister speaker,
is that if we look at the two previous models
(13:44):
or examples when Israel took out nuclear reactors, one of
them was an eighty one, the Osirak reactor I mentioned
that was built for Iraq by the French in two
thousand and seven. The Al ki Bar reactor that Pashar
al Assad was building in northeastern Syria was being built
for or Syria by North Korea. Once each of those
reactors was destroyed, for the Iraqis or the Syrians to rebuild,
(14:08):
they would have required the French again or the North
Koreans again. They did not have a domestic, indigenous scientific
or academic nuclear physicist infrastructure. They didn't have people of
their own who could do it, so they would need
to call up their friends and say, hey, can you come.
That's another level and layer of complexity and challenge Iran.
(14:30):
It's all local, domestic, indigenous. They have the knowledge now. Yes,
part of the delay is the fact that Israel handpicked
key nuclear scientists and took them out, and they have
been eliminated, and those people, let's say, were the centers
of excellence and the knowledge of certain components. That will
delay them. But knowledge also can be replaced because they
(14:52):
have the academic infrastructure, they have others who have some
of that knowledge, they'll be able to rebuild. So everything
can be rebuilt and everything can be replaced. So therefore,
we really have only two ways to get the Iranians
not to rebuild. One of them is exactly what you said.
It's regime change. It's for the Iranian people to rise
(15:14):
up and topple this violent, oppressive regime. By the way
we've seen over the years, how they have tried right.
This isn't They're not doing a favor to Israel or
the United States. They want freedom because this regime is
violent and oppressive to them. Hangs people from cranes in
downtown Tehran because of a sexual preference, beats women on
(15:35):
the streets of Iran because they don't cover their hair
the right way with a head scarf, throws political dissonance journalists,
and the infamous ev In prison that is rolled by
the way bomb the gates of it during this operation,
just as a symbolic message to the Iranian people. But
hopefully the Iranian people will be able to take advantage
(15:56):
of this opportunity, will gain some confidence to do that.
But there's also one other all alternative, another option per
se to try to prevent this rebuilding, and that is
a new nuclear deal. And we're starting to see and
hear that the President has dispatched his envoy to the
Middle East, Steve Whitcoff, to try and get those talks again,
(16:17):
going with the Iranian foreign minister. They had held five
rounds of negotiations prior to June thirteenth Winters who launched
its attack, and a new deal which Iran comes too weaker,
could potentially get Iran to agree to a deal that
they won't have enrichment in Iran. And if that happens,
that they don't have enrichment in Iran, we will have
bought a longer period and have created a safer and
(16:39):
more stable Middle East.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Do you think there's any possibility as part of this
conversation that they can be convinced to cut off their
support for their various puppets.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I hope, because the people tend to and this is
an important point you're making. People tend to think about
Iran just through the prism of their nuclear program. But
the fact is that Iran is also the greatest state
sponsor of terrorism. I mean what Israel came under attack
on October seventh when the Hamas invaded this country. Of course,
(17:12):
it was a great failure by Israel's intelligence services, by
the military, by the government for enacting policies that were wrong,
and we now know they were wrong. But this was
orchestrated by Iran when his BLAT's most important proxy, the
one that had invested billions every year into started firing
(17:32):
missiles the next day, on October eighth. This was also
per the instructions of the Iranian patrons and the Huthis.
As we're recording this, mister speaker, just a few hours ago,
there was a boothy missile and UAV that was intercepted
on its way to Israel. So we're after a ceasefire
and its proxy in Yemen is still launching projectiles and
(17:54):
explosive drones at this country. I would hope that that
will be part of any negotiation. I would hope that
to be part of any talk that will happen. But
I also think that word today in a new Middle
East October seventh was a great failure. But that's only
one side of the coin. In the post October seventh reality,
(18:14):
Israel has re engineered the Middle East. Let's look at
what's happened. His Billah is beaten back. It's leader hasan astrala.
He was like the Bin Laden of this region, the
most infamous, deadliest, ruthless terrorist leader. He was killed, His
successor was killed. His successor's successor was killed by Israel.
(18:34):
They lost their long range missile capability, and everyone by
now knows about the famous beeper attack that the Israeli
Mossad launched against his Blah Camas, which unfortunately still holds
our hostages. But Camas has been beaten. It has no
real capability to launch an attack inside Israel. And even
during a war with Iran over twelve days, his block
(18:56):
comes out in public. He says, you know what, we're
not getting involved. Who would have imagined that was possible.
I mean, I've been writing about this stuff for twenty
five years. Okay, every briefing I would go to in
the Israeli military and the Israeli intelligence offices, they would
always say, look, when we attack Iran, it's a fate
complained that his blow is going to attack us too. Well,
that didn't happen, and not to mention by that, I
forgot to say, Asad's gone, his military's gone. Now you're right,
(19:20):
we have a new guy there. We don't know who
he is, Ahmed Shahra al Julani. Is he good? Is
he bad? He was a former al Kaeda jihadist. Time
will tell, but there's amazing opportunity to say so. Iran
is beat in badly, its proxies are weak, it's nuclear
program degraded. Hopefully this new deal would include all of
that together.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Don't you think the Sunni Arab states collectively we're all
delighted by this outcome.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Without a doubt. Publicly, we have to understand they have
public opinion, they have people on their streets. They're not
always going to be the most pro Israel, so they
have to condemn and I think Israel understands that. But
privately speaking, I mean I can tell you just anecdotally,
I have spoken over the last two weeks since this
(20:09):
has been going on with people from states in the
golf that Israel has relations with, and with people from
states in the Golf that Israel does not have relations
with senior people who we're sending messages of support. We're
talking about enhancing and strengthening the relations with Israel at
a time that we're bombing in Iran because they understand
(20:33):
something very simple. Israel is doing work that they need
done because Iran is a threat to them, no less
than it is a threat to Israel. Iran tries to
undermine those Sunni states, the UAE, the Saudi's Bahrain Cutter,
all these other countries, Egypt and Jordan as well. Right, people,
(20:53):
this kind of flew under the radar. But Israel had
to close its airspace during the twelve days of this operation,
couldn't really let planes take off, couldn't let planes land,
mostly because it knew that if the Iranians know that
Benurian Airport, our international airport near Tel Aviv is going
to be getting planes in and out, they'll hit it
with missiles, and God forbid one of those missiles hits
(21:15):
a plane, right, that would be very bad. So you
had about fifty sixty thousand Israelis going through the land
borders with Egypt and with Jordan quietly, peacefully, no problems.
I mean, these are Arab countries. Why aren't they closing
their borders with Israel during a time like this, right,
they should be standing with their Iranian allies. But that's
(21:37):
the truth. The Iranians are not their allies. The Iranians
are the dangerous actor in this region, and they understand it.
And I think that this is why this really has
so much immense opportunity. What has happened here, what it
presents us in this region, and where we can go
from here. And this is really it's to the credit
of Prime Minister Nitanio for taking this courageous decision, and
(22:00):
I think greatly to the credit of the President for
deciding to join this and really send this collective message
to the world and especially to this region that we
can build up so much amazing opportunities from here.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I was doing Sean Hannity's radio show the other day
and he said that he had a whole number of
sources that said we had somehow managed to put non
existent aircraft on the Iranian system, which I assumed was
a cyber capability, so that they were actually looking at
airplanes that didn't exist when they couldn't see the airplanes
(22:36):
that did exist. And I thought all of that was
just sort of the world that we're entering.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
The technology that we've seen or we've heard of being
used and employed during the last twelve days, many stories
will still be written about it. The spoofing, that's what
Sean Hannity is talking about, of presenting on a radar
machine something that doesn't really exist, is a capability that
(23:02):
Israel has developed over the years and is a way
to blind your enemy so it does not know exactly
what's really happening, which aircraft are really coming, and then
destroys your radar installations. But what we've seen also with
the Mosad operation on the ground, in addition to the
Israeli Air Force, which did a remarkable job, the Mossad
had built up a network of agents in Iran who
(23:27):
deployed drones. It had basically created a drone explosive factory
in Iran, and these drones were deployed on that June
thirteenth day and took out missile defense systems, took out
radar systems, and took out other capabilities. And then also
there were reports that the radians were spreading of white
(23:48):
pickup trucks that were traveling throughout the streets of Tehran
and were apparently dropping off explosive devices at the homes
of different people. Now, even whether that's true or not
about the truck, the fact that it sowed such fear
within Iran tells you everything. And I've been asked a
few times and I don't know the answer to this.
(24:10):
Were these Israeli agents? Were the Iranians or were they
someone else? I think what we have to assume, and
you know this, Sir, is that with intelligence agencies like
the CIA, like the MOSAD, like the really good ones,
sometimes when they operate somewhere they operate, Israeli agents go
and do it. American agents go and do it. Sometimes
they hire local people to do it for them. But
(24:32):
sometimes they could even have people who are doing it
for them who don't even know they're doing it for them.
They could actually be thinking they're doing it for someone
else when they're actually doing it on the behalf of Visral,
on behalf of the United States.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Well, I mean the entire project with Hesbo Lah where
they undercut the market price in order to get them
to buy the devices.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, from a company in Taiwan who didn't even know
the person who sold it in Taiwan and established an
office in Romania, had no clue that they were even
working for the Mossad. It's basically the career of an
alternative reality, a Hollywood production that the people involved don't
even know that they are actors in this. So again,
I don't know. It could be that these were Israeli
(25:11):
agents on the ground. There's a good reason we don't know,
by the way, because these people have to be protected,
whether they were as Raeli or they were not. But
it's never as simple as we might think it to be.
And it really shows just how impressive how much was
invested in each of these targets and identifying, in locating.
I mean, I'll tell you something else, these nuclear scientists
(25:31):
or the IRGC commanders. If you looked at some of
those bombings on that initial day, you saw that like
they dropped a bomb into a window in an apartment
building on the fifth floor, right, they didn't take out
the whole building. They took out the room and the corner,
like the southwest corner. That means they had to know
which apartment the guy lives in, where his bedroom is
(25:52):
located in the apartment, and where his bed is probably
is it on this side of the room or that
side of the room, because they got to make sure
the bomb goes into the room. And it's a level
of granular intelligence detail that we kind of take for granted,
but now that we think about it, how much has
to be invested. People have to work on each one
(26:12):
of these targets over a period of time. You have
to track them, you have to learn and study what
they do, where they go, who they meet with. It's
incredible the detail of what has been able to be
obtained here.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
I thought the project where they planted a bomb in
the Islamic Revolutionary Guard guesthouse in the room which they
assumed sooner or later a leader of Hamas would be
a guest.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
You smell Hania.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, if you think through the complexities of that. At
that moment, I thought, if if I were the Iranians,
I would have a very deep sense of insecurity.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
And it could be anywhere. And that's exactly the point.
And that's why I do think that the President to
some extent is right. When I heard him speak at
the NATO summit when he was asked, well, what if
they rebuilt, and he said, they're not going to rebuild,
And you know, he said that with a lot of confidence,
and I hope he's right. But I do think is
that if you are the supreme leader, and despite everything
(27:26):
we've said before, that you're less than your conclusion is
you need the nuclear weapon. But on the other hand,
you now know that they know everything about you, that
they are everywhere they've being Israel in the United States,
and that they can get you no matter where you are.
Do you really want to do it?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
There's a brief moment where Trump talked about making Iran
great again, But I've talked to several Iranian American billionaires
who are very interested in finding a way ultimately to
help create a dramatically more prosperous and desirable Iran. And
I do wonder. And I noticed in the last few
days that the Israelis had begun to shift towards much
(28:04):
more focus on the security apparatus, having done the work
they were doing on the missiles and the nuclear capability.
And I do wonder whether or not, at some point,
either in a split between the Islamic Revolutionary Guard and
the army or just a sheer mass effort by the
people at large, it may not be possible to move
(28:24):
beyond the current dictatorship.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
What the Israelis did to an extent, they focused on
those initial targets that we spoke about, you know, missile defense,
ballistic missiles, and of course nuclear, But after those main
targets were neutralized, they began to also focus on some
of the regime targets, military targets and others. And the
idea here was to weaken some of those regime I
(28:47):
would say arrays and capabilities, whether it's the IERGC or
the besiege which is kind of their more local domestic
force that literally beats up people on the streets. That
was aimed at trying to give the Uranian people some
hope that they can actually go out to the streets
and try to bring down this regime. One of the
important points that Israel has made, I think consistently throughout
(29:09):
this operation was that our issue is not with the
people of Iran. The people of Iran are friends. The
people of Iran, we share a rich mutual history, the
Persian culture and the history of the Persian peoples. They're
an ancient people really, of amazing capabilities and history. But
the problem is they've been taken hostage by this radical
(29:29):
Islamic entity and these iatolas, the mulahs. I mean, you know,
you remember, mister speaker, how before the revolution of seventy nine,
Israel had an embassy into Tehran, right, I mean we
were all doing business together. We had good friends there,
they had good friends here. I mean that all changed
when Homani came back from Paris and really took that
country in a whole different direction. And I think that
(29:50):
that's what gives a lot of people hope, is that
the Uraanian people still for the most part, want to
come back to the fold. They want to be part
of the free worl old, and hopefully they can break
free of this reign of terror and these tyrants who
have been ruling them.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Well, that's our hope. Let me ask you one last topic,
which is very different, and I think maybe one of
the hardest problems Israel faces. How do you ultimately get
to stability in Gaza?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
It is still connected because the hope right now in
Israel is that by weakening Iran, and Iran was the supplier,
the funder, the provider to Ramas. By weakening Iran, you
further isolate Ramas, and now Hamas is even more isolated,
and therefore the hope is that we can reach a
(30:42):
deal that will see the fifty hostages return. Twenty of
them are believed to still be alive. The rest are
unfortunately tragically no longer among the living. But Israel still
fights to get back even the bodies of these hostages
who have been held by Hamas for nearly two years.
But really, then the question becomes, Okay, even if you've
done that, how do you prevent Ramas from rebuilding? I mean,
(31:02):
get similar questions and dilemmas to what we were just
talking about. And here what's really needed is the creation
of a new governing entity in Gaza. I think everyone
understands that. The question is though, who will be that
governing entity be? And this is where it gets really
complicated because the current coalition in Israel, led by Nasenia,
(31:24):
who in including some of the more right wing far
right parties in Israel, refuse to even talk about the
prospect or possibility that the Palestinian authority led by Mahmudubas
in Ramala will have any role in the day after
in Gaza. On the other hand, the Amordis and the
Egyptians and the Saudis say if they're instant, the Palestinians,
(31:45):
We're not going to come and help, so you're kind
of stuck. And that's the bit of the conundrum at
the moment. I think that Nizzenia, who understands that there
really is not an alternative, and I think that hopefully
he will show the same courage that he showed when
launching this attack on June thirteenth against Iran. He has
(32:05):
the opportunity now to show that same courage and end
this war in Gaza and not only give Israelis the
opportunity to heal, because it's difficult for this country to
move on. You know, we're talking on a day that
seven soldiers were announced killed in Gaza. Terrible tragedy, young
Israeli soldiers, but the Palestinians have also suffered a great tragedy.
(32:27):
We can't ignore that, right, you know, I think it's
Kamas's fault, but the people of Gaza suffer and they
deserve a better future as well. So Gaza has to
be rehabilitated and rebuilt, and for that we need a
new government and I don't want to see Israel do it,
and I don't think Israel wants to do it, right,
We don't want to have control of that place. It's
a place that's not friendly to us, but we need
(32:48):
to ensure that it is a government though, that is
going to not just rebuild and not just govern, but
also deradicalize. That has to be a piece of this.
And if we can really lead to a deradicalization, that
would change textbooks, would change, newspapers, would change culture, would
change the way they talk about us. And that's going
to be tough, but it can be done. The opportunities
(33:11):
have no limits, because that's how you achieve real peace.
We got to deradicalize. So there's a lot of moving
parts here. But I think that we need to come
aus to agree to ceasefire. We need to come as
to give us back the hostages, and we need our
government in Jerusalem to accept the reality that whether we
like it or not, there's going to have to be
some Palestinian guy who's involved in the day after in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Last question, how likely do you think it is that
the ceasefire will hold or is this just a temporary pause.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I think it will hold as long as Iran does
not try and rebuild, or we don't get intelligence that
shows that they're working on a bomb somewhere in the basement.
Israel has achieved its goals of this operation, and that
was to set back Iran's nuclear pro for a number
of years, and that seems to have been achieved. But
(34:03):
the Iranians now the ball's in their court. And I
think that that's why it's so important that the president
doesn't lose focus, because sometimes that can't happen. You finish
one thing and you jump ready to the next thing.
I don't blame him, He's got a lot of different
balls up in the air all at once. But we're
not done yet with iron We need that follow up,
you know. And you know this, sir. You know, military
(34:25):
means really important. They can help get the job done,
but they're not alone going to get the job done.
You need to have that political process that does follow up.
And this is the opportunity. Now they're weak, they're hurt,
they're bleeding. Get them back to the table, squeeze them
for a better deal, give them some carrots along the way.
(34:46):
But you got that big stick you can still hold
and say to them, listen, if you guys don't play ball,
what you saw at those seven B two bombers and
those twelve or fourteen GBU fifty seven massive ordinance penetrators
is just the beginning in.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
The ability to crush the regime. We have massive capabilities
if we have to. This is I think potentially the
turning point which could potentially lead to a dramatically better
Middle East. I think we still have to roll up
our sleeves and recognize it. There's a lot of work
between here and getting an Iran which is sustainable as
(35:21):
a neighbor and not slipping back into the theocratic dictatorship's
desires to destroy Israel the United States. But I want
you to know Yokov, that I want to thank you
for joining and providing an update, and I will continue
to read virtually everything you write. And I want to
remind our listeners that your new book, While Israel Slept
how Hamas Surprise, The Most Powerful Military in the Least
(35:44):
is available for pre order from Amazon right now and
will be out this September. And once it comes out,
I'd love it if you could come back and discuss
both the book and wherever we are at that point
in the process. But thank you. You are a remarkably
helpful student of what's going on in the Middle East.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Thank you, sir. It's always a pleasure and honor to
be with you.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Thank you to my guest, Yakov Katz. You can learn
more about the Israel Iran conflict on our show page
at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Gagers three
sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsei Sloan. Our
researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was
created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at
(36:28):
Ganglishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newsworld, I hope you'll
go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five
stars and give us a review so others can learn
what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld consigner
for my three free weekly columns at Ginglestree sixty dot
com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.
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