Congresswoman Sarah McBride

Katie sits down with Congresswoman Sarah McBride, the first openly trans person in Congress, for a wide-ranging conversation about her tumultuous first year on Capitol Hill. They talk about the chaos of Trump’s second term, the potential release of the Epstein files, and the role trans rights played in the last Presidential election. McBride also opens up about hope, the future of the Democratic party, and why hard conversations are essential to maintaining our democracy.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 2 (01:00):
Donald Trump created an unholy alliance with tech oligarchs and billionaires.
He said, you fund my campaign and facilitate my consolidation
of power, and I will pay you off with massive
tax breaks. Over the last ten months, he has destroyed
these life saving programs. He's gutted food assistance, He's passed
the largest cut to healthcare in American history, all to

(01:22):
create a piggybank that he can then raid to fund
just partially those tax breaks for billionaires.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
I first met Representative Sarah McBride at the DNC in
twenty sixteen, when she became the first openly transperson to
take the stage at a political party's national convention. We
got to know each other a little bit better when
she came to a screening of a documentary I had
done a year later, called Gender Revolution, which examined our

(01:50):
changing notion of gender identity. Well since then, she has
served four years as a Delaware State Senator and now
is the first openly trans person in Congress. Sarah is
so smart and so kind, and I think she is
one of the rising stars of the Democratic Party. So
I am thrilled to have her here in our studio

(02:12):
for an extended conversation. Congresswoman McBride, thank you so much
for joining us.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Thank you. I am so excited to be here with you,
to see you once again. It has been too long.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
It has been a long time, and as I told you,
I've texted you a few times. I was so afraid
that you were not into me. Anymore, or we're ghosting
me or something, and I'd never heard back from you,
so I was like, what happened to Sarah?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
I can't believe I was missing Katie Kurrk's texts. I'm
so sorry. I am so sorry. I did not mean
to ghost Katie Kurk.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
That's okay. I'm just glad this has finally happened. Sarah.
You have had quite the freshman year in Congress. Since January.
The Trump administration has kidnapped, attained, or deported American citizens,
unleashed the National Guard to American streets, attempted to end
birthright citizenship, gotten rid of hundreds of thousands of federal workers,

(03:07):
significantly decreased the budget for medical research, threatened and extorted
news organizations as well as colleges and universities, pardoned all
of those who participated in the January sixth insurrection, among others,
alienated some of our closest allies, put in place tariffs
that might be unconstitutional. Those are just a few things.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
So I'm going to say, you're just scratching the surface
with that.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, the list goes on and on. Oh and I forgot.
He presided over the longest government shutdown in history. How
would you describe your first ten months at the Capitol.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, I will start by saying it is genuinely a
privilege to get to represent what I hope everyone knows
is objectively the greatest state in the history of the Union,
Delaware in Congress, and I am in all that I
have the privilege of being there. But I certainly wish
I had entered a very different Congress than the one
I have entered, a very different Washington than the one

(04:02):
I have entered, because the last ten months, which I
think for all of us, have felt like a decade,
I have had a front row seat to the chaos,
to the incompetence, and I think, more than anything else,
the cruelty of this administration. They have set out to implement,
page by page, bullet by bullet Project twenty twenty five,

(04:23):
to turn back the clock on our nation's progress, not
just fifty years, but one hundred years or more, devastating
the social safety net in this country, passing the largest
cut in American history, not just the largest cut to
medicated in an American history, the largest cut to healthcare
in American history. They are firing thousands of qualified federal workers,
dismantling agencies, dismantling programs that are saving lives here and abroad,

(04:47):
all in an effort to prove that government can't work
by making it not work, and ultimately, all in an
effort to consolidate power for this president, who without question
is a want to be authoritarian. Through all of that,
whether it's the abridgment of due process, the attack on
immigrant communities, the attack on vulnerable communities across this country,

(05:09):
this administration and Republicans have engaged in a strategy that
is as old as politics itself, and it is the tired, weak,
insecure strategy of authoritarian wannabes, and that is to divide
a country and to misdirect the public's attention by telling people,
as they see their healthcare ripped away, as they see
costs rising, as they see their future slipping away, that

(05:32):
the people who are to blame for that are not
the Republican politicians passing those policies in Washington, but rather
immigrant communities or trans young people, or anyone who is misunderstood.
And it's had dangerous consequences for so many people across
this country. But as scary as it is to see

(05:52):
right now. I think for me, the last ten months
have only reinforced my resolve because I truly believe everything
is on the line in this moment, and that means
we have to fight hard, but we have to fight smart.
It means we have to build the kind of diverse
coalition we need to win and deliver, and it means
that we have to ultimately figure out how to make
this government work, because I believe that what we're seeing

(06:14):
right now, the rise of authoritarianism, the rise of trump Ism,
it is the byproduct of a crisis of hope this
country has that individually or collectively, we can't meet the
scope and the scale of the challenges that we face.
That fosters anger people give up on government seeing and
respecting them and ultimately delivering for them, and that anger

(06:35):
feeds trump Ism, and also it leads to people viewing
politics as a place for entertainment rather than progress. And
I think that's one of the reasons why I see
so many professional provocateurs in Congress right now, essentially on
the other side of the aisle, because when people give
up on government being a force for good, then we

(06:56):
see it as a force for entertainment, and that only
furthers that crisis of hope we have as a country.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
You know, Delaware is a blue state, the Great State
of Delaware, Sarah, But forty one percent of voters in
your state did vote for President Trump in the last election.
And I'm curious. You talk to your constituents all the time,
how are they responding to the chaos of these initial

(07:22):
ten months of the second Trump administration.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
I have the privilege of representing the entirety of Delaware,
which means I represent urban, suburban, and rural areas. I
represent blue areas, purple areas, and red areas. And unlike
most people who just see political discussion happening on the
news or on social media, I get to go out
and talk to people across the political divide about politics,

(07:48):
and I actually think it's one of the blessings of
my job. What I hear very frequently from people is
that they're scared. For some it's they're scared about the
future of our democracy. They're scared for their dignity and
their freedoms. But more than anything else, I hear people
being scared about their future, Scared about whether they're going
to be able to afford healthcare, Scared about whether they're

(08:09):
going to be able to put food on the table
and send their kids to good schools and pursue the
American dream and buy a home. And I think from
the folks who I talk to who have voted for
this president, who aren't necessarily dedicated Trumpers, but people who
I would describe as Trump tolerant, the biggest thing I
hear from them is that they feel like this president

(08:32):
has broken the core promise he made in the twenty
twenty four election, which was to focus on making life
more affordable in this country, and they feel like he
has not only shirked that priority, he's actually made the
cost of living crisis worse with those tariffs that you mentioned,
with cuts to healthcare that are going to increase premiums
one hundred two hundred three hundred.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Percent for people.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
They're frustrated that he's betrayed his promise to them. I
will say one of the reasons why it is such
a blessing for me in this moment to have a
job where I go out and I talk to people
across the political divide about politics, because it is so
easy in this moment to feel like politics itself, which

(09:17):
is at the end of the day of the art
of persuasion, that it's pointless because when you go on
social media and when you turn on the TV, you
see just the loudest voices, you see just the most
extreme perspectives, which is what most people see. It's easy
to go our divide. Our disagreements are so significant that
we can't have a national dialogue. There's no way to

(09:39):
hear one another, there's no way to find common ground,
there's no way to convince other people of my position
because we're just so far apart. And when you actually
get out of those spaces and into the real world
for those conversations, you realize, yeah, we have disagreements, and
yes there are pretty profound disagreements, but most people are
actually good people. Most people are decent people, and we

(10:02):
have actually a lot more in common than what the
algorithms make it seem.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Or reinforce right, well reinforce for that matter.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
For as toxic as this moment in our politics is,
being able to interact with people who think differently than
I do has actually not only reinstilled my beliefs and
my values, because I've been having to defend those values
in those beliefs in those policies in those conversations. But
it's actually made me more hopeful because it has allowed

(10:31):
me to see that politics as a form of change making,
which at the end of the day requires us to
change one another's minds, that is still possible.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
You did a very thoughtful podcast with Ezra Client, which
I thought was so well done, and I thought it
was interesting, Sarah, you said out in the real world,
people aren't catastrophizing what's happening to our democracy as much
as they cared about these kitchen table issues, you know,
about being able to participate in the American dream. But

(11:02):
I'm curious, do you find your constituents, even some of
those who supported President Trump, concerned about the erosion and
the downright destruction of certain institutions and norms, or do
they kind of put it off as that's just Trump
being Trump.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
I think there are people who I talk to who
are outraged and fearful about the democratic backsliding that this
country is undeniably experiencing right now. I'm certainly outraged by
it and believe it is not a very real threat,
but a very real problem in this moment. It's not abstract,

(11:44):
it's not a hypothetical. It is happening, and I think
you know since that podcast, it's only gotten more obvious
and more extreme, and therefore more and more people are
rightfully bringing it up to me, and not just the
people who were bringing it up to me eight months
ago and a year ago, or ten years ago, for

(12:05):
that matter, And so I'm hearing about it more and more,
without question. That doesn't mean that we should make it
the central point of all of our messaging, because if
you truly believe that democracy is on the line in
this moment, which I do, then the most important thing

(12:26):
for us right now is to build a coalition that
can help to protect democracy. And for the folks who
are outraged by what we're seeing right now, they see it,
they understand the assignment. They're already fighting hard. If we
are going to get the kind of numbers we need
not just to win the House, but hopefully to win

(12:47):
the Senate and eventually to rewin the presidency, which is
the only way to stop the democratic backsliding that we're
seeing right now, then we're going to have to convince
those Trump tolerant voters that just as much as we
will defend democracy, we will also so focus as much
on the fact that they need affordable housing, affordable childcare,
affordable healthcare, affordable groceries. I think when you're scared, it's

(13:10):
very easy to fall into a place where you want
to see everyone fight in ways that feel viscerally comforting
to you. That's an understandable instinct, and some of politics
is preaching to the choir. But we also have to
have the courage to grow our congregation in this moment,
and that means continuing a focus on the economic realities
that people are facing. And I will say, we can't
separate those things from the democratic backsliding that we're experiencing.

(13:35):
How So, in the last election, Donald Trump created an
unholy alliance with tech oligarchs and billionaires. He said, you
fund my campaign and facilitate my consolidation of power, and
I will pay you off with massive tax breaks. Over
the last ten months, he has destroyed these life saving programs.
He's gutted food assistance, he's past the largest cut to

(13:58):
healthcare in American history, all to create a piggy bank
that he can then raid to fund just partially those
tax breaks for billionaires. And so, when we protect healthcare,
for instance, when we protect snap. We're not only helping
to save lives for the people who rely on those programs,
but we're also taking away the piggybank that Donald Trump
is using to fund his consolidation of power and his

(14:19):
authoritarian project that is facilitated by these billionaires in tech oligarchs.
The second reason is the first speech that I gave
on the floor of the House of Representatives. I thought
long and hard about what I wanted to talk about,
and this was in February, so this was early in
the Trump administration, and I decided that I wanted to
focus in and touch on the themes of Franklin Roseult's

(14:39):
nineteen forty four State of the Union address, which your
casual observer would not be aware of what he said
in that speech, but it's one of my favorite speeches
because it helps to reinforce how connected economic opportunity is
with our freedom and our democracy. Because in that speech,
which he delivered in the well of that same chamber
that I delivered my first speech, he delivered it as

(15:01):
war raged on two continents, as Americans were dying in
order to defeat tyranny. He talked about how necessitous people
are not free people when you're hungry and you're out
of a job. That those are the things that dictatorships
are made of. When people are hungry, when they're out
of a job, when they're angry, when they're frustrated or
hopeless and hopeless, right, it leads to two things. That

(15:23):
leads either to people hearing that strong man who says
I alone can fix it and finding hope in that person,
or because they're hopeless, they give up and opt out
of the system entirely. When you don't have enough housing
or healthcare to go around, when there's not enough food
to go around, and you've got that strong man who
can then dole it out, it increases their power. It

(15:46):
allows him to reward those who are sycophants and punish
those who he believes are his enemies. And you see
it over the last ten months. They'll call these programs
democrat programs. And listen, if you want to call medicaid
and Medicare and snap a democratic program, find by me.
But what they're saying in that is that these are
programs that democrats made and that democrats rely on, and

(16:06):
so we're going to punish these people. We're going to
punish LGBTQ people because we believe that there are political enemies,
because we perceive that the people who rely on those
programs or the people who are in those communities are
part of our faction that are standing up to us,
and we want to punish them. And so when there's
scarcity in the economy, it can increase that strong man's

(16:28):
power in doling out what little healthcare, what little housing,
what few jobs remain.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
So these two issues have to be dealt with simultaneously.
You have to have a too pronged approach understanding how
interwoven they are. Yes, I'm just curious. As a new
member of Congress, you walk around and, as you said,
the world presented on social media is often not reality.
When you interact with your Republican colleagues, do you ever

(16:56):
find areas of common ground? Is it civil? And how
do you understand the complete capitulation of the Republican Party
to Donald Trump. I'm just curious what you've picked up
actually been in Congress.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
It's not hyperbole to say that the modern Republican Party
in Congress is a cult of personality. I mean, that's
one of the things that's like really jarring to see
up close, you go on the floor, and you know,
sometimes you can have these poster boards that might have
graphs or pictures of your constituents, pictures of a senior
highlighting your commitment to Medicare or Social Security. The Republicans

(17:34):
will put up these signs behind themselves on the floor
of the House, and it'll be like Donald Trump's face
gazing off into the distance with fireworks exploding behind him.
I mean, it's like bizarre, pitiful behavior. And I mean
that's a hallmark of authoritarianism. And that's what they've fostered,
a cult of personality. And I think a lot of

(17:55):
the Republicans in the House are Republican politicians who, unlike
Trump one, don't predate Trump. They rose in Republican politics.
They were elected to federal office during the Trump dominance
of the Republican Party. And so I think, unlike Trump one,
there are a lot more who are true believers, that
genuinely believe in Donald Trump. There are others who I

(18:18):
think still make the calculus that you know, better for
me to be here and to push back quietly or
behind the scenes than to stand up and lose my
primary and have someone who's a true believer here. I
think that's a big all those shrinking portion of the
Republican caucus. We see cowardice by some, and we see
genuine belief in this Trump project by many others in

(18:41):
a growing faction. The closest thing that I can compare
Congress to is a reality.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Show survivor of real hothouse more like Real Housewives.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
And this is not true for everyone, but it's true
for some, and certainly the ones that dominate the news.
And that is when you are on Real Housewives, the
way to get airtime is to pick a fight, it's
to throw wine in someone's face, and that behavior gets
you attention in this fierce attention economy, But for an
institution like Congress, for a workplace, it's completely corrosive and destructive.

(19:16):
And for some of these folks, I used to think
when I got there, their behavior was in pursuit of
attention for powers sake, right, Attention is power, Attention is influence.
Attention increases your capacity to have your policies be heard.
But I've come to realize that for many of these
professional provocateurs in Congress, it's that they are genuinely just

(19:37):
addicted to attention. We know that attention on social media
is addictive. Right, when you post a picture on social
media and it gets a decent number of likes, it's
a dopamine hit. But for your typical person posting a
picture online, that's a cigarette puff. But when you go
viral nationally, that is a hit like the most addictive drug.
I mean, it's instantly addictive just off of one high.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
I was gonna say that's like opioids. Yes.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
And one of the most freaquing things I hear about
these particularly destructive people in Congress is they were so
normal when they got here, But then what happens is
they do something innocently well intended that goes viral, and
then they get hooked, and as is the case with
almost every other addiction, they will start to engage in

(20:25):
both self destructive behaviors, but also they will engage in
behaviors in search of that high, regardless of the collateral
damage for other people too. Part of my job, as
someone who's been on the receiving end of people trying
to pursue that attention high is to not be an
effective vessel for their high.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
How do you do that.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
By not taking the bait, by not giving them the
responses that they are seeking in that moment when they're
trying to pick a fight with me, because in reality TV,
how do you get not just a little bit of airtime,
but a season long story gets to have a feud
with someone, But that takes two to tango. I'm not
going to throw wine back in their face. I'm just
going to ignore them. That preserves my effectiveness for my constituents.

(21:09):
I also think it helps to present the public with
a very clear contrast between who the bullies are and
who the bullied is. But I also think that it
removes some of the incentive for these people to continue
to come after me, because they're not getting the high
as easily as they would otherwise get it, and they're
not getting the same kind of high because I'm not
taking the bait, and therefore they're not getting quite as

(21:31):
much attention.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
And the attention isn't sustained. It could be a blip,
but it's not a steady flow.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Exactly, which gives them a bigger high. And I will
say that approach has actually also resulted in a number
of Republicans not only coming up to me and apologizing
for the behavior of other Republicans or implicitly doing so
by just being overly welcoming or more aggressively welcoming. But
some have said, let's figure out opportunities to work together

(22:00):
to show that not everyone's like that. And I'm proud
that I've introduced more bipartisan legislation than any other freshmen.
That legislation's not the sort of big, controversial, headline grabbing legislation,
but it's important legislations. Consumer protections for people who are
in debt against these predatory credit repair organizations that charge
large upfront fees and provide no service. These are important

(22:24):
bills outside of some of the perverse incentives in politics,
where you can not only work in a bipartisan way,
but actually build relationships and trusts that maybe help you
across the aisle navigate some of the foreigny or more controversial,
more headline grabing issues too.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
So do you think in a perverse way the cruelty
exhibited by she who shall not be named Nancy Mace
in a way helped you because it made some people,
in their effort to show they're not that person, reach
out to you and want to work with you.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
I think what has come my way and my strategy
and deal with it has increased my effectiveness. Yes, And
all I can say to those who've done it is
I hope they get the support and the love that
they so clearly desire, and I hope they find the
healing that they so clearly need.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
Hi. Everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on
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and of course covering the news. And I know that
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(23:40):
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Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,

(24:00):
or book your own free personalized fitting. Let's talk about
the latest news on Capitol Hill. Donald Trump just reopened
the government. After eight Democratic senators got together with Republicans

(24:21):
and Angus King, an independent. They said, you know, we're
not going to get anywhere on healthcare. We're not going
to get anywhere on extending the Affordable Care Act subsidies
with the government that shut down. Meanwhile, we're causing considerable
pain to a lot of people by stopping the SNAP benefits,
et cetera. And we got to get back to work.

(24:41):
And many progressives were outraged, like Bernie Sanders, he called
it a disaster. And I know you voted against it,
this negotiation to reopen the government. Can you talk about
why and how you felt about what some are terming
a capitulation and of are saying a necessary step to

(25:02):
get back to business.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
The risk to SNAP was a choice by the administration.
They have been able to find money for a whole
host of pet projects for this president. There was still
money in the SNAP contingency funds that they could have used.
So the disruption that happened or was potentially happening to
SNAP was a choice by the administration. But to your point,
very real harm.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
I was going to say, whoever's fault it was? People
were suffering, right.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
And inevitably, even if the administration wasn't making all of
the choices it was making to disrupt food assistants and
other kinds of proactively cruel decisions to make matters worse
to play chicken no matter what. A shutdown presents real
pain for people. People go without paychecks. Programs that constituents
of my small businesses in my state rely on were

(25:51):
either ground to a halt or operating less efficiently during
the shutdown, and so there's real harm. And I think
no one wants a shutdown. We have a responsibility in
this moment to do all we can to both reopen
government and to have addressed the expiration of the Affordable
Care Act tax credits. I have heard from far too

(26:13):
many constituents, tens of thousands of constituents of mine, that
are seeing their healthcare premiums increase one hundred two hundred
three hundred percent, and I could not in good conscience
say to them that I'm going to accept this false
choice that Republicans had presented, which is that we could
either reopen government or solve the health care crisis. We
can do both, and we should do both. Obviously, the

(26:36):
Republicans were committed to not doing both.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Do you think they could have been brought to the table, Sarah.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
I think that it would have been worth seeing how
the dust settled for a little bit longer. After the
elections in New Jersey and Virginia as people were still
just starting to go on to healthcare dot CoV during
open enrollment and finding these incredibly high premium hikes. I

(27:06):
think it would have been worth seeing if those events
indeed would change the Republican negotiating position, if enough pressure
had come to bear. Because the President had already said
we lost the election this year because of the shutdown,
you had Republicans speaking out about the problem with the ACA.

(27:27):
I think it would have been worth for a little
bit longer seeing if that reality would have changed anything.
Because the President was saying, abolish the filibuster. I think
it would have been worth when he was realizing that
that was not a potential path forward with Republicans in
the Senate, to see whether he would have ultimately done
what he's done throughout his career, which is to throw

(27:49):
his Republican colleagues under the bus, because ultimately he wants
to get what he wants, and that is, in this case,
to get back on firm or footing because he was
losing the shutdown fight. I'm not going to sit here
and criticize other people's decisions and how they voted. I
voted the way I did because obviously I disagree with them,
but I also understand that these are really fraught decisions

(28:13):
to make, and I think we do ourselves and our
democracy a disservice when we try to pretend that every
single decision is so morally clear, so obviously black and white,
that anyone who disagrees with us is evil. That's just
not the kind of politics that I employ. And so
I can understand why some people would come to a

(28:36):
different conclusion than the one that I did. I felt
strongly and I voted no because of it. But I
think what's clear now is we've got to just keep
up the fight. The American people now understand after the
last several weeks that it's Republican's fault that healthcare premiums
are skyrocketing, and we're going to continue to bring that
message to voters next week, next month, next year, all

(28:58):
the way through the next selection, and then, god willing,
if we have a majority, do all we can to
actually bring down healthcare costs.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Is that what you're hearing from your constituents, because I
know in Delaware more than sixteen thousand people will lose
their healthcare subsidies, and about five thousand could lose their
medical coverage altogethers that sound about right.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
I've seen estimates of even more Delawareans seeing skyrocketing premiums,
and that does not even include all of the Delawareans
who will lose their coverage under the Medicaid cuts that
are on the horizon in a year.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
So what are you hearing from them about getting back
to business and ending the government shutdown?

Speaker 2 (29:34):
I mean, I think there's a lot of frustration from
my constituents about the votes as they've transpired in the
Senate and the House. They feel like some people should
have held out longer in defense of their healthcare. And
my message to them is I see them, I hear them.
I've voted against the deal, and I'm going to keep
fighting for the principles that we've been fighting for, not

(29:56):
just over the last several weeks, but for my entire
political career.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
John Thune promised that this was going to be discussed
as part of the negotiations. Angus King told me he
thought John Thune was trustworthy. Speaker Johnson seems less inclined
as last time I checked. So I guess the question is,
did the Democrats get anything out of these negotiations? And
was the government shut down ultimately all for nought?

Speaker 2 (30:23):
Well, I don't think it was for nought. I think
a couple of things. One, there are appropriations bills that
have passed that are good bills that are going to
buttress snap in the face of disruption and chaos and government.
There are really critical investments that are included in those
appropriations bills. I do not believe those bills were worth

(30:47):
voting in favor of the deal, but there are some
things that came out of that deal. What's very clear
to me is that in September people were not talking
about the ACA TI credits. In September, people couldn't have
told you who was to blame for the pending spike

(31:10):
in premiums. I think people now know when they go
on healthcare dot gov and see their premiums increase two
hundred percent, it's because Republicans were so committed to cutting
healthcare that they were willing to shut down the government
for five weeks.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
But don't you think that Republicans will see, gosh, this
is such a vulnerability for us. We need to do
something about this, and they may be pushed to negotiate
and to extend some of these benefits.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
I think that the only thing that Congressional Republicans are
more loyal to than Donald Trump is cutting healthcare for
the American people. I don't think that they care. I
don't think that they want to fix this. John Thune
may very well bring a bill to the floor of
the Senate because that's literally the extent of the deal
when it comes to the ACA tax credits. Whether it
passes or not, I don't know. Probably doesn't, but even

(31:59):
if it does, I have no faith that Mike Johnson
will bring something to the floor. We're going to do
a discharge petition to try to bring something to the
floor and have our Republicans have to answer for not
signing it on the record. Right, Yes, but Mike Johnson
is perpetually having to appease the furthest right faction of

(32:19):
his caucus, and they do not want to extend the
ACA tax credits. And he has been in their pocket
since he became speaker. He has been in their pocket
for sure the last ten months. And I don't think
they're going to let him bring that bill to the floor.
I don't think they're going to let him negotiate with us.

(32:40):
And what is clear as Mike Johnson is only doing
Donald Trump's bidding and the bidding of the far right
people in his caucus. He is not a strong leader.
He's just reflective of those two stakeholders that he needs
to maintain his power, and one of those stakeholders will
prevent him from bringing an ACAA tax credit build to

(33:02):
the floor.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Mike Johnson did finally swear in Arizona's newest representative, Adelita Grihalva,
and she immediately signed on to the bipartisan petition to
force a vote to release the Epstein files, with the
vote planned for next week. Gosh, the whole Epstein thing
so much happening. Whether you're talking about Glaine Maxwell getting

(33:24):
preferential treatment at this minimum security prison, to Michael Wolf
a journalist interacting with Jeffrey Epstein, other names appearing in
some of these emails. What happens now? Can you just
kind of make sense of this circus for us?

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well, first of all, I will just say I don't
know the extent of Donald Trump's involvement with Jeffrey Epstein.
I don't know to what degree there is any involvement
or knowledge that he had throughout the most prolific child
sex trafficking ring in our country's history. But boy is
he acting suspicious behave behavior bringing Lauren Bobert into the

(34:02):
situation room to try to berate her into taking her
name off of the discharge petition, the stonewalling at every turn,
the desperation to avoid a vote on releasing the Epstein files,
to the point that the Speaker of the House shut
the house down for fifty some days. Part of it

(34:24):
was because he wanted to pass the continuing resolution, send
it over the Senate, and leave town to jam the Senate,
But genuinely his motivation for shutting down the House was
as much that as it was preventing the swearing in
of now Representative at a lad A. Grihalva, knowing that
she would be the two hundred and eighteenth signature on
this discharge petition. But their intimidation didn't work, and we've

(34:47):
hit that two hundred and eighteen mark. I was on
the floor with Representative Grihalva when she signed that petition.
We're going to have a vote next week. I think
we're going to see a ton of Republican defectors. It'll
be interesting to see what happens then with an overwhelming
vote in the House as it goes over to the Senate.
It is incredibly alarming the extent to which Republican leaders

(35:08):
will go to cover up and to prevent the kind
of transparency that the American people, Democrats, independence and Republicans
alike want to see. With the Epstein files. What do
you think the fallout is going to be? It must
be very hard to predict, but what will it actually do?
I know there's a big subset of Donald Trump supporters,
people who are part of the MAGA movement, who feel

(35:30):
very strongly about these files and about the involvement of
a president with a pedophile ring basically right. There are others,
I think, maybe who won't be as agitated by what
might be in these files. It may be premature, but
how do you see this all shaking out? I think

(35:51):
it is premature to know for sure, but I think
what is clear is that this whole sequence of events
with the Epstein files is one more example of Donald
Trump and Republican politicians breaking their promises, saying one thing
ahead of the election and doing something entirely different once

(36:12):
they have power. And I think that that is a
theme for this president and for this administration, and for
Republicans in Congress. They said they were going to lower prices.
They aren't. They said that they weren't going to cut Medicaid.
They did. They said that they weren't going to touch Medicare.
They did. They said that they would release the files.
They're trying not to. And I think that that's probably
the biggest takeaway. Regardless of what's in the files at

(36:34):
the end of the day, regardless of what we get
when and if they're released in greater volume, regardless of
all of that, it reinforces the reality that this is
an administration of broken promises.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
You and I met Gosh almost a decade ago, and
it was at a time when great strides were being
made culturally. I think for the LGBTQ community, gay marriage
pass in twenty fifteen, there seemed to be the beginning
of a greater understanding of trans people. But now you

(37:08):
don't need me to tell you this. There has been
such a backlash, particularly against trans Americans. In Trump's inauguration speech,
he declared that there were only two genders. He's attempted
to cut funding for schools that teach about gender ideology.
He banned trans athletes from competing in women's sports. He
banned gender affirming care for trans kids, signed an executive

(37:31):
order banning trans troops serving in the military. I've thought
about you a lot as this has been happening in
Ergo why I texted you and you never texted me back.
But why do you think this backlash happened? Do you
believe looking back that the pendulums may be swung too far?

(37:54):
How do you account for it? I don't think the
pendulum swung too far. I think, more than anything else,
the reason why this has happened is because there was
a well funded, well coordinated effort to fear monger and
scapegoat around a vulnerable community. Trans people were just gaining visibility.

(38:15):
Trans people were at the start of mainstream political influence.
La Verne Cox was on the cover of Time magazine.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
On the cover of Time, Katie Kuric was doing a
great documentary, and that put a target on our back
because we were making progress, right, but that progress had
not yet been matched by a level of public understanding
that would inoculate us to the effectiveness of the politics

(38:46):
of backlash. And when you have that reality right, you
have a community of rising equality, of rising progress still
shaky ground that that progress is built on, which is
not the community's fault. It's just sort of the reality
of new progress. Right It's always most fragile at the start,
and then that is met most explicitly by a well funded,

(39:10):
well coordinated right wing effort to demonize, fear monger and
scapegoat that community. It's had toxic consequences, dangerous consequences. It
is a reminder that progress is not linear. It's often
two steps forward and one step back. It is a
frightening time in this country to be trans. The policies

(39:34):
will have real consequences for real human beings. And the
coarseness and meanness in our politics alone on trans issues
is about as dehumanizing as I've seen in modern politics.
And we can't give up our capacity to change people's minds,

(39:55):
to rebuild and to strengthen public support for the dignity
of all people, including trans people. That means hard, painful,
often unfair conversations. It means meeting people where they are.
It means welcoming in in perfect allies for a conversation
that allow them to gain greater perfection. And that's not

(40:19):
going to feel great. But I am not willing to
give up my power and my voice to bring about change.
And I think that we have to recognize that so
much of our power as a LGBTQ community has been
the power of our proximity. When we are present and
we are willing to be in often difficult conversations with
people who are not yet where we want them to

(40:41):
be in their journey of understanding. But because throughout the
last several decades we've been willing to be proximate and
engage in those conversations, we have been able to build
greater understanding, particularly for gay folks. Greater understanding that has
made not only the progress possible, but the progress then
more permanent.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
It's this well financed and deliberate anti trans campaign couple
with ignorance, honestly, that made it so potent and so effective.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Well, and that's what I mean, that sort of lack
of understanding.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Right, So that leads me to talk to you about
how we increase understanding. I thought it was interesting that
with Ezra Kleine you talked about people understand sexual orientation
better than gender identity, because with sexual orientation, everybody sort
of loves and luss and they can relate to that
and sort of understand. Okay, I kind of get that.

(41:40):
With gender identity, it's much harder for people who don't
have that to relate to. It. Aren't trends who haven't
been transit in the closet right right? And so how
do we do a better job of reversing this demonization
and this lack of understanding when it comes to trans people?

(42:02):
For me, doing that documentary was extremely helpful and hopefully
helpful to other people who kind of went on this
journey with me. And I know you and I talked
back in the day about the reason why the documentary
was effective and persuasive was I was the avatar for
the ignorant person or the uneducated person, and through my

(42:23):
journey of discovery, I became more knowledgeable and therefore more
understanding and compassionate. And how do we help people get there?
Right now? We're at a deficit right when it comes
to understanding, and I would love to be an ally
and help with that, But how do we do it?

(42:44):
Because it's so hard right now?

Speaker 2 (42:47):
There are a number of things we have to do.
We have to be willing. Not everyone. I'm not asking
everyone to do this, but there has to be a
continued effort around this trans one oh one right of
people sharing their stories and what it felt like for me.
For instance, when I was still in the closet, it
felt like a constant feeling of homesickness, just this unwavering

(43:08):
ache in the pit of my stomach that would only
go away when I could be seen and affirmed as myself.
And it was a homesickness that only grew with age.
The older I got, and the more fulfilled I got
in my professional life, in my academic career, all of
that only reinforced the fact that I was watching my
one life pass by someone I knew I wasn't And

(43:29):
I still know how hard it is to understand, well,
how do you know you're this when that's not what
you were perceived to be born as? And I can't
explain everything, but I do think that your documentary does
a really good job of explaining the fact that we
might not be able to understand everything. And look, I
don't know what it feels like to be depressed, but

(43:49):
I know that that's a real phenomenon for people. And
I don't have to be able to understand what it
feels like to be depressed to understand that that is
a real thing, and that people who are depressed are
worthy of support and care and love so that they
can live their best lives. I think one of the
things that your documentary does so powerfully is, yes, it
tells the story and maybe allows some people to enter

(44:11):
into that experience of being trans sort of viscerally a
little bit more, but it also allows people to understand that, look,
trans people are a reality of human diversity, and regardless
of what you think about gender in this abstract, academic,
intellectual sense, you've got people who are real people. We
have to decide are we going to treat them with
dignity and society? Are we going to create space for

(44:34):
them to live in society fully and freely with happiness,
so that at the end of their lives they don't
look back at their life with regret, so they can
get to the end of their lives having lived their
life to the fullest, which is all anyone wants. And
so if trans people are real, which they are, then
the question for all of us is then how do
we treat people? And I think if you can get there,

(44:57):
you can get most people into a solid pla of
broad support. They might not always agree with every single policy,
but they'll be there with good will and good intentions
and recognize the fundamental humanity of the community that's being discussed.
And that gets me to the next thing that I
do think is important, which is on issues of gender identity.
I think across our politics we have just lost this

(45:18):
capacity to have challenging conversations, to have painful conversations, to
differentiate between people who are committed in opposition to your
dignity and people who are entering a conversation with goodwill
and good intentions and don't understand. We have to be
able to make a distinction between those two types of people,

(45:40):
and I think we've lost that distinction, and it has
resulted in us too often treating anyone who's not with
us one hundred percent as therefore an opposition to us
one hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Kind of a purity test that you talk about that,
I think progressives sometimes fall victim too, that if you
say anything that is slightly off a specific agenda, then
you're evil.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
I think in our politics we don't grapple with the
fact that people don't know what they don't know.

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(47:20):
use the word grace a lot, which I think is
so appropriate, which is to me, compassion for someone's lack
of understanding.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Well, and I think also not only compassion for someone's
lack of understanding, but just this recognition that one of
the reasons why I am a Democrat, one of the
reasons why you know, my starting place on policy is
from a more liberal or progressive perspective. Is because I
believe in the dignity of every human being. I believe
that people are whole people. I do not believe that

(47:51):
people are just their worst action, or just their worst thought,
or just their worst word. And for me, that principle
that every person has inherent dignity, that every person is
worthy of being treated with dignity, and that no one
is their worst action. And that doesn't mean there shouldn't
be accountability. It doesn't mean that people shouldn't express how

(48:11):
someone's action makes them feel. It doesn't mean that when
people are doubling down on cruelty and meanness that we
should just well, okay, I'm going to ignore that. It means, though,
starting from that basic place of dignity, creating space through
that grace for people to grow. I think that's the
only way we move forward. And again, it doesn't always

(48:33):
feel great. But I'm in this work because I want
to make progress. I want to change people's hearts and minds.
I want to change public opinion on all of the
issues that I am passionate about, and the only way
to do that is to be in conversation with people
and to start from a place of mutual respect and dignity.
And again, if someone's not showing me respect, that doesn't

(48:54):
mean I have to stay in the conversation with them.
But I'm going to give people a chance. You know,
this is a moment for us to decide. We've talked
a lot about this authoritarian project, to decide whether we
genuinely believe in democracy, not as a talking point, not
as an abstraction, not only when it's going right for us,
whether we genuinely believe it. Because democracy can only persist

(49:17):
if we maintain our faith in other people's capacity to
change through nonviolent, peaceful political discourse.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
And in this day and age, it's so hard to
do it because so many and I know you've talked
about this, Sarah, and I couldn't agree more. So much
of our political discourse air quotes, is being done online.
People write things to me they would never say to
my face.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
Coirs, colleagues of mine write things to me that they
objectively do not say to my face.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
And so we have to create spaces for that, which
is really hard to do.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
I think it is hard, and I know it asks
a lot more of unimpacted community to enter into that
conversation than it does as for someone whose position I
might find harmful or offensive but just holds it casually.
It is asking a lot more of me.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
It reminds me of when I did that documentary. When
I would interview a couple of the trans folks who
I featured, they would say, it's not my job to
educate people about my gender identity. No, this is why
they created Google in essence, and I always thought, yes,
I understand, that is a huge burden to have to

(50:31):
lead with that in every conversation, or in too many conversations.
Is asking a lot. On the other hand, I thought, gosh,
is this in some ways a missed opportunity.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
You know? One of the things I actually disagreed with
Harvey Milk about was that everyone needed to come out,
that everyone had this responsibility to come out everywhere because
I was the only way we're going to create change,
and I thought that that was an unfair burden. I
still think that's an unfair burden to place on an
already vulnerable and marginalized community. People have to make the
best decisions for themselves, and if they feel comfortable sharing

(51:04):
who they are and sharing the wholeness of who they
are with other people wonderful. For me, It's been a
liberating experience. I don't think everyone in the community has
to bear that responsibility, but for those who are willing
to go in those spaces, for those who are willing
to effectively meet people where they are, in those painful, unfair,
difficult conversations, we have to create space for those people

(51:27):
to do it. Meeting people where they are is not
selling out. It's what this work is and it's how
we build progress. It reminds me of what doctor Oz said.
I don't often quote doctor Oz, especially these days, but
I went on a show to talk about my documentary
and he did say something that I thought was very

(51:47):
profound in its simplicity, which was, it's hard to hate
up close. Yes, And I so believe that. I wanted
to ask you about schools because I feel like a
lot of the stirm and drang around trans issues are
really centered at schools. And we read that forty seven
percent of Americans, according to Pew, think it should be

(52:10):
illegal for public school districts to teach about gender identity
and elementary schools. So I guess the question that I've
struggled with how do you create an inclusive environment for
all kids without some parents worrying that it's too much,
too soon, or it's a bridge too far. Well, I

(52:32):
always believe that we should have age appropriate curriculum regardless
of what the topic is. Regardless of what the subject is,
one belief that I have is that no one is
too young to learn to be kind. This is a big, complicated,
diverse world, and growing up is already hard enough, and
growing up different is particularly hard in this day and age.

(52:55):
Regardless of what identity we're talking about, regardless of what
community we're talking talking about. At the end of the day,
at a minimum, we should just guarantee that people understand
that the diversity of our society makes us beautiful, and
that treating people with kindness and respect, regardless of what
that difference is, everyone should start from a place of

(53:17):
kindness and respect. And I don't think that anyone is
too young to learn that basic principle. And I would
hope that, regardless of where you fall on particular issues
on LGBTQ rights, that most people could agree with that
basic principle.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
The anti trans rhetoric in this recent presidential campaign and
in the Virginia gubernatorial race. I'm curious how effective you
think this is and what the Democrats can do to
inoculate themselves from being kind of pigeonholed into these transpositions

(53:58):
that voters don't seem to really care about, but that
are used to gin up this sort of visceral antagonism
against certain candidates. What is the answer.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
I think part of it is we as a party
have to have a bold economic agenda. The ad that
came out against Harris in twenty twenty four one, it
was like this hodgepodge of all of the right wing
greatest hits. It was trans immigrant people who are incarcerated
all in one. But the line that I think reinforced

(54:31):
for some voters a disconnect that they had with our
party was they didn't feel like we were focused on
broad economic issues.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
You had your priorities screwed up, is what they thought.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
I think some voters have felt that way, and I
think that is in part a byproduct of the fact
that we haven't had a clear enough and bold enough
economic agenda. When we've had power, we have not delivered
it enough, and when we have been running, we have
not been clear and focused enough on it.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Now.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
The reality in the last selection in twenty twenty four,
I should say, and in twenty twenty five, is that
the party that is actually obsessed with cultural war issues,
the party that is spending money and perpetually talking about
trans issues, is actually the Republican Party. When some earl
seers and Virginia spent fifty four percent of her ad
budget on trans ads, and I think the public is
starting to wake up to that fact that it's not

(55:23):
the Democratic Party that is hyper obsessed with talking about
trans people, it's the Republican Party that is hyper obsessed.
And I think in Virginia you saw that very clearly,
and I think Abigail Spanburger pursued that case really effectively.
I also think Abigail ran a campaign that was focused
on affordability. The contrast of this candidate being out there

(55:45):
talking about affordability with a laser focus on it, and
when some earl sears hyper fixated on bathrooms and trans
athletes really reinforced that disconnect. I thought Abigail and Mikey
in New Jersey really demonstrated that our party can be
principled and pragmatic all at the same time. Neither of

(56:08):
them through trans people under the bus. Neither of them
endorsed blanket policies that treat every trans person the same
in a discriminatory fashion. Both of them held true to
their values, their principles, and their policies, and they met
voters where they are. They did not shune in shame.
They extended grace. They recognized that some people have understandable

(56:32):
concerns or desires for nuance, that rules should be made
in the context of sports and the places that are
best able to make those rules, or individual athletic associations
that understand their sports the best and can make these
rules free of political interference, like we've seen with four
hundred and thirty five members of the House of Representatives
believing that it's their job to micromanage third grade soccer.

(56:55):
That was effective, and they were principled and pragmatic. The
elections in Virginia and New Jersey reinforced that it's a
false choice that Democrats can win when we're true to
ourselves and also engage with voters with respect and understanding.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Do you believe that should be the guiding principles for
the mid terms? Is affordability? The new it's the economy stupid.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Yes. All of the candidates that ran who won in
the twenty twenty five election, whether it was Mikey, cheryls,
Zoron Mamdani, or Abigail Spanberger, all three of them employed
three kinds of politics incredibly effectively. One is the politics
of affordability, that hyper focus on making the American dream
affordable and accessible for everyone. The second was a politics

(57:41):
of curiosity and not judgment. They talked to voters across
the political divide. The first video that Zoron Mamdanni went
viral for was a video of him having respectful dialogue
finding common ground with Trump voters on the street. The
third was a politics of place. All of them very
much rooted their politics in their commitment to their neighbors,
to the community, to the state, to the city that

(58:03):
they were running to represent or govern, and that common identity,
which the Republicans do very effectively with that America first Moniker.
Rooting your politics in your community and your neighbors rather
than your partisan or ideological affiliation. That is transcendent. And
so whether you were running in a red area or
a blue area, whether you're progressive or a moderate, you
can run and win when you employ those three politics effectively,

(58:26):
the politics of affordability, the politics of curiosity, in the
politics of place.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
When you look toward the mid terms, how concerned are
you about the tip for tat redistricting battles that are
going on in the country because it seems like Republicans may,
in fact, as its stands, gain one seat in the House.
Is that going to be insurmountable for Democrats?

Speaker 2 (58:50):
I think what we've seen on redistricting is the perfect
example of fighting hard and fighting smart. We had to
meet fire with fire. Republicans, if left to their own devices,
were going to redistrict in so many states that they
could have had a net gain that would have made

(59:10):
it much more challenging, if not potentially insurmountable, for Democrats
to effectively compete for the House with these largely unprecedented
mid decade partisan redistricting efforts. California responded in kind that
dramatically mitigated the impact of Texas. We just saw recently. Utah,
through fair maps in their courts, will potentially be having

(59:33):
a blue seat created in Salt Lake City. If we
had just let Republicans pursue this redistricting strategy, with a
completely clear runway, we could have seen them lock Democrats
out of competition in free and fair elections for a
generation or more. But because Democrats responded in the places

(59:54):
that they had power, we were able to mitigate the impact. So,
whether it's a net gain for Republicans of wan to
three four, as long as it's in single digits, I
think we will be able to overcome whatever slight advantage
Republicans gain in this battle. And what I always say
to folks who want to see Democrats fight as hard
as possible in this moment, I say, if you want

(01:00:16):
us to fight like blue state governors, you've got to
give us the power of blue state governors. That means
getting us the majority in twenty twenty six, so that
we have the levers of power in the House of
Representatives to hold this administration accountable, to serve as a check,
and to do all that we can with the power
that we would have to protect our democracy and ultimately
restore care and protect people's pocketbooks.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
In closing, you've been a member of Congress for ten months.
What do you think is the most valuable lesson you've
learned so far? And how has your expectation matched the
reality of what it's like to do this job.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
As someone who had been in the state legislature, had
worked in national advocacy, had spent a lot of time
on the hill, knew a lot of history. I don't
think anyone can realize what it's like until you were there.
The Capital is such a cacophony of feedback and noise,
the world's most pivotal and impactful reality show that you

(01:01:18):
could be stepping into. And again, that's a sad indictment
of what Congress is like, and it's hard to fathom
until and unless you were there. I think the biggest
lesson that I take away from in this moment is
that with so much on the line, we're going to
have to do hard things. It's not going to feel

(01:01:40):
great all the time. It's not going to be fun
and fair. It's not going to always feel like we're
moving forward. But we are going to have to both
play the short term game and the long game if
we're going to make that progress permanent. There's something unsatisfied
buying in how long change takes. But one of the

(01:02:03):
things that I take solace in is the fact that
change takes time. As unfair as that is, and as
unsatisfying as that is, we can try to make it
as fast as possible, and we must make it as
fast as possible. But the fact that it's hard, that
is a feature of democracy, not a bug of it,
because it also means that those on the other side

(01:02:24):
don't get everything they want in one foul swoop, and
so as unsatisfying as it can be, it's also a
reflection of the fact that we maintain a healthy democracy.
But there's a give and take that we can have
these painful conversations out in the open, and that while
it might be two steps forward and one step back
in the long course of history, the arc of the

(01:02:45):
moral universe will bend toward justice.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
I've so enjoyed and appreciated this conversation, Sarah. Thank you
so much for doing this and for fighting the good fight,
and for not giving up, and for putting up with
so much bs, which I know is must be really
hard and painful, but carrying yourself with that word you

(01:03:10):
often use such grace.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Thank you. It makes a lot easier. Having great friends
and family and everything back in Delaware makes all of
the things down in DC worthwhile. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

(01:03:48):
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

(01:04:09):
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi. Everyone, it's Katiekuric.
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