August 22, 2024 • 61 mins
Katie (a total Deborah) is joined by KCM producer Adriana Fazio (Katie’s Ava) to chat with the creative team behind the acclaimed show "Hacks"—Lucia Aniello, Jen Statsky, and Paul W. Downs. The trio opens up about how their own path to comedy writing, including their love for classic TV like "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" and time spent waiting tables, inspired the characters of Deborah and Ava. From casting newcomer, Hanna Einbinder, opposite national treasure, Jean Smart, to the process of developing plotlines and story arcs, this episode offers a deep dive into the creative process behind an original show that has become a fan favorite.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi everyone, I'm Kittie Couric and this is Next Question. Okay,
this is a bonus episode of Next Question, and I
must say a pretty fun one. First of all, I've
got my plus one today and it's none other than
my sidekick, Adriana Fazzio. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, thank you. Yes,
(00:27):
she's terrific, Adriana. How excited are you to be here
with me?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I am so excited. I'm usually silently next to you,
but now I get to mic today.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And why are you excited? Fazzio?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I'm excited because you and I both love the show
Hacks on Max, which rhymes. And we get to interview
the three writers today, Jen Statski, Paul w Downs and
Lucia Anello.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
That's right. And when we watch this show, what do
we always say, faz.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We say that we are the real life Dubbor Vance
and Ava Daniels.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
It's true for about or for worse.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Although we're not toxic.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
No, well, I don't think they're toxic. Do you think
they're toxic?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I do.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
They are toxic maybe in moments, but then they have
other moments of real just true affection and I don't
know and connection, but anyway, I digress. First of all,
they were so nice to spend so much time with us.
But here is our conversation with the writers of our
(01:26):
favorite show, Hacks.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
First of all, I can't tell you how excited Atriona
and I both are that you all have carved out
a little time and your incredibly busy schedules to talk
to us about Hacks. Because we love the show. We're
obsessed with the show, and we actually think the show
is about us. We do well. I'm an older, I'm
(02:01):
sort of you know, I'm Deborah Vance and Adriana is
Ava and we laugh about it all the time, and actually,
following this podcast, we'd like to talk about a show
based on us if you all have to do it,
and you know, I know you think we're kidding, but
we're actually not kidding.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Okay, love that.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I'm sure We're open for pitches. Let's do it.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
First of all, I also want to say congratulations because
it must be an incredible feeling. I know you all
have had a lot of success in other shows, and
we can talk about those, but I feel like Hacks
has become so huge and has made such a mark. Paul,
let me start with you. I mean, what is it
(02:45):
like having such a hugely successful show. It must be thrilling,
but also kind of a lot of pressure, right.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
Well, it is a lot of pressure in that I
think we've had such a great response and people, you know,
who tell us that the show resonates with them, we
just want to make it better every season for them.
And you know, as people who love film and television,
I love it when a show just gets better and better,
and so I think there's pressure in that way. But
(03:14):
knowing how much content in the world there is and
how much great television there is, it is so gratifying
that it's cut through because you never know, you know,
we feel very very lucky that people have found the
show and really respond to it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Luccio, what about you?
Speaker 7 (03:29):
Yeah, very similar sentiment, which is just like you know,
I think, especially when people tell us how much the
show means to them and how much they feel seen
and connect to it, or say, you know, like I
watched it with my dad when he was sick and
it was something we could laugh at together.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
You know, stories like that.
Speaker 7 (03:47):
They're so sweet and touching, But also it makes me
want to make the show good for those people and
so that is really a huge source of the almost
abilitating anxiety I feel in general about making the shows,
Like I really just don't want to disappoint people, and
I want, like Paul saying, to give them more of
(04:07):
what they feel like they love about the show, but also,
you know, still make the show that we want to make.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
So it is.
Speaker 7 (04:16):
It is a lot of pressure, but it really comes
from having such gratefulness of being able to even make
a show right now, Like the industry is in such
a weird place of being able to be even writing
a season four of a show, which we're doing right now,
feels like such a rarity.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
And Jen, bring it home, Jen.
Speaker 8 (04:33):
No pressure, no everything, these guys said, And I think also,
you know, just to get to make a comedy right
now in twenty twenty four, we feel really privileged and lucky.
Like we the three of us. You know, the show
is about creative collaboration. It's about two people who are
lit up and have a love of comedy and it's
what drives them. And that's very much so the story
(04:55):
of the three of us. We met doing comedy at
the UCB in New York and we love it.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And upright citizens brigade for you neophyte listeners.
Speaker 8 (05:05):
Yeah, and so to get to do that and make
this comedy show with people that I meant like in
a sketch group and like a theater underneath the grocery
store is like feels really cool and special and we
just I don't know, Yeah, there is there is pressure
with it, but you try to just focus on how
lucky you are.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Are you Canadian, by the way, because you say a
bout I know.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Okay, so this is so talking about it all the time.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I'm glad she's either Canadian or from Baltimore.
Speaker 8 (05:33):
I'm glad we're getting into this, Katie. So I'm from
I'm from Boston and my.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Dad is what the hell is about about?
Speaker 8 (05:41):
I know, it's so strange, it does pop out some sids.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
What happened? Two things happened.
Speaker 8 (05:46):
I think when I went to I had I had
a pretty thick Boston accent because my dad is from
South Boston and has like a really thick South the accent.
I think when I went to NYU, I kind of
lost the accent. But then I did date someone from
Canada for a long time, and I think I picked.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Up started talking like that.
Speaker 7 (06:04):
I started.
Speaker 8 (06:04):
I think I picked up something. So shout out to
Brian Bernstein. If you're listening to every piece of media
I do. You're still in my life every day.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Hey, I'm big in Canada.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Paul, I believe it. I believe it.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
So Lucie, I guess you're the best person to bring
together the connective tissue A. Jen was talking a little
bit about how you all met, but then also how
Hacks became a show.
Speaker 7 (06:34):
Yeah, so Paul and Jen and I, well, we originally
all met when I'm Paul and I met at a
level one UCB class, and then Jen and I maybe
two or three years later or something like that, met
because we were the only girls in a.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Kind of a sketch comedy group.
Speaker 7 (06:51):
But then the boys stopped emailing us and so we
were kind of kicked out of the group. But Jen
and I remained friends, and then I introduced paulin gen
around that same time, and we were just friends, you know,
and then we I guess maybe when is the first
time we worked together? Was it on Broad City that
we actually well other than work making the videos?
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Yeah, that's so crazy.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
It was.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
It might have been It might have been Broad City
or maybe I had done punch up for something you
guys did.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I don't know, because I did feel like we took
their material and made it funnier Chan.
Speaker 8 (07:25):
Yes, which is it's hard to do because they're incredibly funny,
the best writers.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
So I tried, at least. I don't know that I succeeded.
Speaker 7 (07:34):
She she always does, but yeah, and so we basically
we started writing together in different ways. Punched up a
movie that we made rough Night when she was on
set with us, and we wrote a spec script. The
three of us wrote a movie that we tried to
get made that we have yet to.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Succeed in doing. But then we were writing.
Speaker 7 (07:56):
Jen and I were kind of helping Paul on his
Netflix special all the characters called Up Down Search that
and on our drive from Boston to Portland, Maine, which
is where we were shooting a segment for it, we
started talking about, you know, women in this industry, especially
stand ups, who like you, kind of only read about
when their obituary happens, and you're like, oh, yeah, why
(08:18):
didn't they ever have the same kind of careers that
their male counterparts had, And we were just kind of
talking about this idea of what it's like to be
a woman of a certain age who's had to, you know,
try to make it in that industry at a certain time,
and then what that does to your personality, What does
that do to your psyche, what does that do to
your career, and how you have to kind of gravitate
(08:39):
towards certain kinds of materials to survive. Maybe is it
kind of what you initially intended to do with your comedy,
but it's a way to make money, and so that
kind of is like where we.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
Started having this idea.
Speaker 7 (08:50):
And then the idea of like a younger comedian, a
younger woman kind of learning to respect the older comedian
through working with her, and just kind of what that
generational conflict would do you just felt like a great
story engine. It felt like a great character engine. We
kind of just never stopped talking about it. Whether we
were hanging out or working together, We just kind of
always would email each other ideas, Oh.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
It could be this idea or that idea. Like it
just kind of over the course of a.
Speaker 7 (09:13):
Couple of years, from like I think twenty fifteen until
twenty nineteen, it's just something we were always working on
on the back burner and then twenty nineteen.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
We were like, it really just felt like the right
time to pitch it.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And it took you five years, as you said, from
kind of the conception to getting it ready to pitch,
and you were all busy doing other things. I know, Jen,
you were on the good place, right And weren't you
guys also working on broad City? Lucia and Paul, As
Lucia mentioned, you both had plenty of other projects, but
(09:44):
this thing was just sort of this nagging idea that
wouldn't go away. And I want to talk about the
characters and who they're based on in a minute, but
if you will indulge me for a moment, I'm sort
of interested in all of yours gin stories because I
love to know kind of why people become what they become.
(10:06):
And I know, Paul, you grew up in New Jersey.
You describe yourself as kind of a weird, quiet, shy kid,
and you had parents who were super funny, and you
kind of related. I think you said that that comedy
kind of fueled you, and it also made you less lonely,
it made you connect with people. See, I did my
research polem. Can you talk a little bit about that
(10:29):
and how ultimately you decided to pursue this as a career.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I was.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
I certainly actually wasn't shy, is the truth. But I
was very eccentric and strange as a child, I think,
and my parents certainly fan the flames of that. They
you know, my mom and I used to watch Nick
at night and we watched I Love Lucy and Bewitched
and you know, whatever else was on. And my dad
was a big fan of the Marx Brothers and mel
(10:58):
Brooks and you know, so I was watching Young Frankenstein
probably before I even understood what half of the references were.
And yeah, it was the thing as a kid that
you know, I think a lot of people get into
comedy because it's, you know, the thing that, especially when
you share a sense of humor with somebody, you find
your people. And certainly for me, it was also a
(11:19):
way of, you know, you can avoid being bullied if
you can make people laugh, So that was certainly it
was a defense mechanism in a way too. And yeah,
I just always loved it, and I loved Saturday Night Live,
and I loved watching Robin Williams, and I just wanted
to do what he and those people did, so I
started writing for myself. In high school, I would do
(11:40):
character monologues because I went to a school that had
a great performing arts program, and there was this thing
called the black Box Theater, and at lunch time you
would do like lunch room performances, like a coffee shop
for the kids who weren't sitting at the popular table.
You could go and do like coffee shop poetry or
character monologue.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Oh, I love your school. I'm so glad they did that.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, the Pingree School.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
Shout out to al Romano and Patricia Wheeler who were
running the program there at the Pingree School. But yeah,
it was like a performance at arts high school. And
I think that certainly started me off. And then when
I went to college, I did improv in sketch and college,
and so when I moved to New York after I
was doing stand up and I was auditioning for things,
and I wanted to be a comedic actor. But it
(12:24):
wasn't until I started doing improv again. And actually it
was day one of our first improv class that I
met Luccia and I told them this recently, it's so weird.
Maybe it's just because you know, someone's going to be
important in your life. But I remember the moment of
meeting both general Lucia, and I don't have that for
many people in my life, which is pretty wild.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
What do you remember?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Well?
Speaker 6 (12:49):
I showed up early to class because I was so nervous,
and Luccia came about ten or fifteen minutes late, very nonplussed,
and said what are we doing? And I was like,
who is this girl who was so confident and walked
in and was like essentially. And then very shortly thereafter,
I was doing a scene in this class and she
did turn to the instructor and said, you should write
(13:11):
that line down, which is not something to do in improv,
but she was already directing that's funny.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
And then I knew of.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
Jen because I had read some of the sketches that
Lucia and Gen were writing, and for Lucia to be
lit up by somebody meant they were very special. And
I know Lucia spoke so fondly of Jen and how
funny she was, so I was very excited to meet her.
And then I met her at a coffee shop and
I was struck by well, I did say, wow, funny
(13:40):
and beautiful which is probably very inappropriate nowadays.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It's like I couldn't do.
Speaker 8 (13:43):
It, but it's interesting because it was in front of
your girlfriend at the time.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
I'm not that jealous tight, but that's the kind of
guy I am.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
No, Yeah, I said, you know what, He's totally right.
I agree, And that's.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
An exclusive Miss Katie about that.
Speaker 7 (14:03):
Yeah, breaking news is such an old timey line to
kind of do.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Also at like what were you twenty four twenty fives?
Speaker 6 (14:11):
Truly am I grout show Mark speaking of Yeah, I
done the harp, putting my leg in her hand when
I shook her hand.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
But it was very old school thought Villian almost.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, Jen, I know that you really like the Mary
Tyler Moore Show and that was part of the reason
you wanted to become a TV writer. What was it
about that show that drew you to the industry.
Speaker 8 (14:32):
Yeah, I was like, like I was an only child
and my parents were around a lot.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
I watched a lot of Nicked Night, like old tea.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Like this is a this is some connective tissue nicked Ye.
Were you a big Nicked Night person?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
I watched it. I see liked night.
Speaker 8 (14:50):
Anonymous thought I were more Yeah, she was cooler, that
is true.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I don't know, but were you watching the Mary Tyler
Moore Show on Nicked Night, Because, by the way, Jen,
you and I are kind of on the same page
because I became a journalist because of the Mary telling
Marsh and absolutely loved that show. And I thought it
was so interesting when I read that you thought the
(15:16):
pilot was the perfect pilot, and then it made me.
I've rewatched the Mary Taylor Moore Show on YouTube or
on what yeah, I guess on YouTube, and do you
remember exactly what was in the pilot? Is that when
Lou Grant said you have spunk and I hate sponsor.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yeah, yeah, So the pilot, to me, that is exactly it.
Speaker 8 (15:36):
During the interview when Lou and Mary meat for the
first time, it is that, you know, I think the
reason it's such a good pilot is like that in
that interview scene, their rapport and their comedic games are
so evident right immediately, and you immediately are like, oh,
I want one hundred more episodes of these two doing this.
And so I thought about that scene a lot during
(15:57):
the deborn Ava interview scene in our pilot because it
kind of had the same exact feeling which was you
need to buy into the dynamic between these characters immediately
for it to work, and you know Mary, they have
such crazy good chemistry in that scene. It's so funny.
And then the other reason I think it's the perfect
pilot and it did influence me wanting to be a
(16:18):
TV sitcom writer is for me like sitcoms are so
special and wonderful when they are both really funny but
have heart and make you feel things, even in thirty
minutes twenty one minutes on Network, and that pilot is
so funny, but it also is so heart wrenching at
the end when her you know X comes back and
(16:40):
she's moved and she's like kind of kind of been
longing for him and he comes back in our life
and she's finally realized her value and it's just like
a two line thing. But when he says like, take
care of yourself, Mary, and she goes, I think I
just did that like made me choke up. That made
me choke up as like a ten year old, And
I was like, oh, this this is so funny and
(17:01):
also so real and emotional that those are the stories
I want to tell and what I want to do.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
So yeah, it was incredibly influential to me.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
We're going to throw it to break but first, I'm
Katie Couric and I'm Adriana Fasio, my plus one for
today's episode, and we'll be back with more of the
writers from Hacks right after this. If you want to
get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news
(17:33):
and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture,
sign up for our daily newsletter, Wakeupcall by going to
Katiecuric dot com. We're back with the writers from our
favorite show, Hacks. Luccia, I know that you didn't get
(17:57):
into a school you wanted to get into and you
ended up waitressing at a restaurant called KOI. Yes, and
even before that, tell me what drove you to this
line of work?
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Yeah, I mean I I actually kind of what I
really wanted to do when I was younger was be
an MTV VJ.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
That was like what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I was like that just you wanted to be Martha Quinn, Yes,
I literally did.
Speaker 7 (18:22):
I was like, that's right, I'm going to hang out
with rock stars and just kind of hang out.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
I get famous doing it that.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
She was perfect doing that.
Speaker 9 (18:29):
Well.
Speaker 8 (18:29):
Yeah, yeah, but she has an amazing music taste, so that's
very sweet.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
But that didn't work out. So then, you know, I
also loved comedy.
Speaker 7 (18:38):
I loved watching you know, SNL and I was obsessed
with The Simpsons and Daria was really influential to.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Me as a kid. But then when I went to
college and my undergrad I.
Speaker 7 (18:49):
Did go I went to Columbia and I was and
I loved the film studies program there, but I didn't
get into grad school. I wanted to go to NYU
Film School and I didn't get in, and so take
that and film school, so I started I started doing
improv classes because I knew I literally like googled Amy Poehler.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
I was like, what does she? How did she get
to because it was.
Speaker 7 (19:09):
A time where Tina and Amy were the weekend update hosts.
And then that led me to UCB, and so I
moved back to New York after college, I like took
this summer off and then that's where I met Paul.
But I kind of, you know, i'd studied film studies
and so I wasn't really planning on being a director necessarily,
even though like you know, I had now seen so
(19:29):
many films as an undergrad that it was really you know,
I had a certain language to discuss it, and I
actually thought maybe I would go into criticism because I
had a professor.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
There, Andrew Sarra, So I really learned a lot from
and loved.
Speaker 7 (19:41):
But then when we started, you know, like performing and
doing improv and sketches and all that, I did start
to gravitate towards the directing. But part of what I
felt like was a great education for directing was waitressing.
And yes I worked at a couple of restaurants in
New York, but the tenure, my longest tenure was like Croy,
which is that the Brian Parker tell.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I loved their coursby Rice with.
Speaker 7 (20:05):
It's fantastic, and I have to say they're like the
ogs of that. I don't remember having it before or
seeing it now. It's kind of everywhere, but.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
I know you Rice.
Speaker 7 (20:19):
But I also grew up in the restaurant business. My
parents own restaurants and my dad was a chef and
my mom designed them. It was a pastry chef, and
also they ran the restaurant together. So I also grew
up with a husband and wife in front of me
working together as Paul, and I do now?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And and where was that again, Lucia?
Speaker 5 (20:37):
This was an Amherst, Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Oh that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Are you the one that's behind the Papa Gino's pertucciese choke?
Speaker 5 (20:43):
Actually no, because I would never go to another pizza.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Place, like I would never go.
Speaker 8 (20:47):
To those places because yeah, she wouldn't be caught dead
in a Papainos.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Papa Gino's family.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
So I thank you for your six family.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Also, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
I'm not I met my own family.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Literally, you're an an yellow family.
Speaker 7 (21:06):
Yeah, I'm in a yellow so but I definitely felt like,
you know, working as a waitress was such a great
education for show running and directing, because you deal with
front of house, back of house, you know, which is
very much like dealing with networks and executives and you know, actors,
and then also.
Speaker 5 (21:21):
Back of the house, which is also kind of actors
but like.
Speaker 7 (21:23):
Crew people, and you know, learning the nuts and bolts
of what goes into it and having to kind of
shape shift depending on who you were dealing with, and
like do I need to just be brief here and
just get it done, or do I go over here?
Speaker 5 (21:35):
And you know, do they want to show or whatever
it is.
Speaker 7 (21:38):
It's like everybody needs something different and you need it
all to decide immediately. And also things are moving one
hundred miles per hour and you get in the weeds
in both scenarios where you're like, oh my god, it's
so much right now, how am I going to get
through this? And it's just one foot in front of
the other and putting out fires and and so I
really actually feel that waitressing was like the most incredible
education I could have asked for.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And maybe maybe you could do a show about a restaurant,
maybe based in Chicago behind you chef and all your
experiences at Coy.
Speaker 7 (22:11):
You know what's so funny is that? Okay, so now
I can't do that show because of the bear. Great show,
but also, you know, the other thing that I'm very
passionate about is soccer.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
And I can't do yo.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So I'm like, what about a female soccer story. I
feel like they can't have the corner on the market
on soccer. I mean, I don't know. It seems like
people have short memories too, which is something you were
worried about because you guys had a big do you
like that seamless transition.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
That was good. I know what's going yet, but I'm loving.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
That because you guys had to take a big break
because Jean had some medical issues and then you had
the writers strike, and I know you were concerned that
viewers weren't going to stay with you or they were
going to move on, but I think nobody moved on.
I was so excited and Adrian, we were so excited
(23:02):
when the third season came on. Weren't we a trona?
We were so weird, so weird, and we were.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Like cracking up in the theater at south By Southwest,
like to a strange degree.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Oh that's great, thank.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
You, that's so nice.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Oh that's so goa. That was such a fun screening.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
That was really so fun.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
We were so happy you guys were able to come.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Well, we're your biggest fans, as I said, So, I
know you guys have said that Deborah is really an
amalgamation of a lot of female comedians.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Can you talk to us a little bit about building
out her character and what you might have pulled from who.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
That was sort of the biggest challenge in getting the
show ready to pitch was creating this history of this
iconic stand up, and yeah, basically in our history of
the character, she started doing a husband and wife live
comedy act, kind of like Nichols and May, Mike Nichols
and Elaine May, and they had a very public and
(23:56):
messy divorce. Not unlike Lucio Ballan Desiernez, she was you know,
maligned by managers. And we read Debbie Reynolds's autobiography and
there's obviously a lot of Joan Rivers. She has her
stand up life, but also her QVC life, and then
there's you know, there's other stand ups like Paula Poundstone
(24:17):
and Phyllis Diller, and she's sort of an amalgamation of
a lot of different women who you know, suffered in
dignity after indignity, especially in the industry of comedy. And
Ava is much more someone you know from sort of
our generation, though younger than us now, who came up,
you know, through a more traditional comedy writing path, although
(24:38):
she was plucked off of Twitter, as Debra says in
the pilot, But you know, both of them are our
characters that exist in our minds in the world of comedy.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
As someone who was an assistant, I can't imagine writing
Ava's character without having some lived experience of being an
assistant or a writer's assistant. John, how much of Ava
is based on the early days of your career.
Speaker 8 (25:03):
I mean, Ava is very much her experience as a
comedy writer is very much an amalgamation of all three
of ours, you know, having come up doing comedy. I
mean I was, I was a assistant to difficult people
at times, and so yeah, there's a little bit of
that in there. But I think you know, the thing
(25:25):
that Ava has at the beginning that hopefully none of
us had, is like all three of us, like like
we said, waitress saying, working in service industry, like kind
of pounding the pavement doing comedy like we didn't. I
guess I maybe I did get my first paid writing
job at twenty five, which is really young.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
But Ava is even more of like.
Speaker 8 (25:44):
Didn't have to pay her dues at all, like she
kind of in our backstory for her, like got this
job off of Twitter and didn't even finish college, so
in a way, like, yeah, she didn't have that until
she meets Debra, of course, and then she goes through
the hazing prices of working for dever Vance in season
one and beyond, never quite had anything as rough as
(26:08):
the gembre A dynamic, though thankfully not yet.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Anyway, I want to ask you guys about Hannah because
she's got a really interesting background too, and I know
that you all marvel at her acting chops, how committed
she is, and also what a great person she is.
I'd love to hear more about that, because we always
hear when people are creeps and not when they're really nice. Right,
(26:31):
But you know, she's got an interesting sort of family
history and comedy, and just tell us a little bit
about picking her for the role and where there are
a lot of people who auditioned. And I know you
can't tell us who auditioned and who didn't get the role,
although those stories are always so fascinating, But tell us
(26:52):
a little bit about selecting her for the role of Hannah.
Speaker 6 (26:56):
Yeah, we I think, I don't know, Jen, you counted
it one point, how many people.
Speaker 8 (27:00):
Read I think I looked at all the casting tapes
submissions we had gotten because we only you know, we
started doing readings for her in person, and then COVID
happened and so then everything switched to virtual and I
think at one point I tali it up and we
saw almost five hundred audition tapes for a Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Were they well known people or were they mostly.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
It was a combination.
Speaker 8 (27:24):
There was some definitely well known people, and then of
course a lot of people who, like Hannah, had not
really done much or people who had just been working.
We're working actors, you know. We always in the conception
of the show when we talked about casting, we didn't
lock ourselves into anything, but we always felt that it
was Gene and she'd be incredible, and like, you know,
that it would be a known performer for Deborah, and
(27:47):
then the dream was to find kind of a newer
discovery for Ava. So we were really open to getting
tapes from anyone and everyone, and we watched all of
those and Hannah really in her first tape and every
moment after that, every callback and to the test with Gene,
(28:08):
she just really surprised us. And you know, you you
the thing about it being a writer is you when
you audition people, you hear your writing and you're scene
over and over and over, and I will just speak
for myself, I was like, I can't hear this scene anymore.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
It's not good. This doesn't work.
Speaker 8 (28:26):
You know, like when people you know, we were lucky,
we had really wonderful people addition, but no, like you know,
you just sometimes I think it's not that, it's not
that and it's so specific. And when Hannah did it,
she just brought something so unique and new to it
but also familiar to us because we had been living
with this character for so long and we knew who
Aba was and who she was supposed to be. So
(28:48):
to get that combination of someone delivering on what you'd
envision but also bringing you know, newness and freshness, and like,
oh I never imagined that line that way, but that.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Works, That's what it should be.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Like.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
She really had that in space.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And it's so interesting that her mom is Lorraine Newman
from SNL And I know, you know that was that
was kind of exciting? Was she pretty much just writing
and not acting? Was this? I know because I think
I read Paul that you said it's just such a
shock that she had never acted before.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
Really oh crazy. In fact, I remember when Jeane found
out and she was like what Because some people just
have something that Hannah has, which is it isn't innate.
She has a gift for you know, she is just
so natural and so watchable, and also she's able, especially
in this season, to become so authentically emotional. You know,
(29:44):
she's never acting at something, she is feeling these feelings
of the character. She is so in the character. And
part of it, I think because she comes from a
family that valued comedy and worshiped comedy, like I think,
she has the same kind of reverence for comedy that
Ava has, so she really feels the character. And for us,
you know, we had Gene attached and she is a
(30:04):
national treasure. So part of the reason for the extensive
search was you want someone who can go toe to
toe with Gene, and if you're getting someone who's lesser known,
that's a very tall task. And also, you know, we
really wanted somebody that earned the role.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
And so actually, when.
Speaker 6 (30:22):
We googled Hannah, the only thing we could find was
she had done Colbert, which is ironic and very full
circle since doing Late Night is very much the white
whale for our main character. So she had done some
stand up and she is a stand up but that
was about it. And then we also discovered who her
mom was, and that her mom was Loraine Newman, who
(30:43):
all of us were fans of. But we also were like, oh, nope,
I hope people don't have the misconception that she got
her foot in the door because we had no idea
when she auditioned who she was, much less who her
mother was, you know what I mean. So it was
a really interesting thing that I think it gives her
so much to draw from in her actual life in
(31:03):
terms of what women in comedy have gone through and
in terms of like what comedy means to people. But
for us, we never we didn't ever want that to
precede her because she is so so good and she
is She's always like, well, I'm I'm a comedian. I
come from comedy, And we're like, sure, you're a comedian,
but you are a gifted actress.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
You are an.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Actresspitala And I guess she's been nominated for Emmy's but
hasn't won one yet. And I think this is going
to be her year. Kids. You know, you say, Jeane
Smart is a national treasure, and honestly, you know, as
somebody who was a big fan of hers, who watched
(31:42):
Designing Women, you know, I feel like she hasn't had
a platform like design since Designing Women to really show
her incredible skills and just how funny she is. Was
that a natural thing going to Smart? And I love
what Atrona was mentioning about this amalgamation of comedians, because
(32:05):
you know, these are kind of my generation, like Elaine Boosler,
like when it was last time you heard that name,
and Paula Poundstone and all these women who You're right
it was it must have been so hard for them
back in the day. But was Jean Smart just an
immediate thought from you all, or how did you come
up with her as the lead?
Speaker 5 (32:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (32:25):
It was a very short list, you know, and Genie's
very much at the top of that list. And I
think the thing we were searching for was somebody obviously
who could be a believable stand up, because if you
don't believe this woman is a stand up and like
kind of this iconic Eva, then the whole thing Paul's apart,
you're like, eh. But we knew that we wanted to
write towards some more dramatic elements and to be able
(32:47):
to find somebody who could do comedy and believably be
a stand up but also can do serious dramatic work.
And it has a resume that shows that it was
really hard there's some people that were like, that person's
so funny, but can they do drama?
Speaker 5 (33:02):
They've never really done it? Do they want to do it?
Is that going to be a stretch?
Speaker 7 (33:05):
But Gene was really the perfect person for us because
not only can she do comedy and drama in equal measure,
but there's something about also her stature, her aura that
just gives like this fabulous twist to it as well
and feels like this. You know, it's partly because she's
a tall, gorgeous blonde, but there's just something about she
has a command and she just draws your eye and
(33:27):
it just felt like that is what you kind of
need to believe that this is a woman whose entire
ecosystem circles her.
Speaker 6 (33:35):
And you know what not to diminish her prolific career
because she's been working, honestly, NonStop, she works so much.
But she was always one of our favorite things when
we would see Frasier. She stood out in that show
so much. And you know, when she did the Brady
Bunch movie, she plays like a really seen stealing person
in that movie. And it's crazy to think that she
very much embodies Debora because even though Jane has worked
(33:57):
forever and is beloved. She'd ever been number one on
the call sheet. She had never had a lead that
could show her range. So it was sort of like, Oh,
here's someone who maybe hasn't had their due to show
the world everything that she can do. And so in
that way, she very much was Debra Vance.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
And she's I think she's seventy three geen and you
meet shen't ask me. I mean she's she is so gorgeous.
I met her at gosh, I think I went to
a Vanity Fair party for the Oscars. I know I'm
very cool, and were walking out at the same time.
(34:35):
First of all, she's so lovely and I've interviewed her before,
but that lady is one tall drink of water. Yes,
she was amazing, and she's just so gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
When we met Jean and Hannah and all of you
at south By Southwest, Jean was presenting Hannah with a
an award, and their relationship in real life just seems
so authentic and so sweet. Did their Chemist Street Was
it obvious just from the first table read?
Speaker 7 (35:03):
It was actually from the audition, I would say, yeah,
it was just like an immediate even just the way
that they like, you know, there's something also about their.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
Gender expression that also just felt like the right thing.
Speaker 7 (35:14):
Where you know, Debra, I mean, Gene is just kind
of this like statuus, you know, female ideal, and Hannah
also so beautiful, but like has kind of you know,
she she showed up.
Speaker 5 (35:26):
In the Doc Martin's and the Gunians and it was
just kind of like.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
She had a grunge going.
Speaker 7 (35:31):
Yeah, just something about just the way that they looked
together that just felt right. And it's true that like
their relationship mirrored that, like, and they've really been there
for each other through a lot of hard, hard moments.
We've had some you know, really sad things happen on
our show.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I was going to mention because I talked to Jane
about this, and I think, you know, she was very
generous about talking to me because I lost my husband
a number of years ago, but she lost her husband
of thirty five years, I know, in March of twenty
twenty one. And you know, gosh, I guess work, at
(36:09):
least for me, it was really invaluable for me because
you could compartmentalize and focus on something other than your sadness.
But that must have been a tough period for her
and for you all for her.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
Right, Oh yeah, we've all I mean, and this is
overused this term, but we really have become family. You know,
you become that when you're together with people for so
long in so many places, and especially when you've been
through things like that. And I think, you know, it
happened during shooting. It was like the last couple of
weeks of season one, and.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I know that.
Speaker 6 (36:45):
Hannah was really there for her, and Caitlyn Olsen, who
plays her daughter on the show, was really there for her.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
You know.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
Jeane has now a thirteen year old and she has
two children. But it was really it was a very
hard time. But Jean, I think she wanted to finish
the show and come back and have you know.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
She didn't want the crew to be out of work.
Speaker 6 (37:06):
She was like, let's finish, and I think it was
nice for her to be back together with this little family.
But yeah, it was. It's been kind of crazy the
things that have happened. A lot of life has happened
behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
I wanted to ask you all, Sorry, Faz, you want
to ask something.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
I was going to ask Paul about Meg Stalter because
she's your counterpart on the show, and I love.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Her, love Meg Stalter Adron, and I love I mean,
we love everyone on the show. Paul, we also love
you on the show. Well, thank you very much. So yeah,
we think you're great and so funny, but thank you.
Meg is so funny. Yeah, and that first season especially
just so annoying and so hilarious. I felt for you
(37:54):
having her work for you. Tell us about her because
she kind of came came out of no where, didn't she.
Speaker 6 (38:01):
I mean, she's another one who this was her first
like television job. You know, she had been doing live
comedy and she is like she comes from the alt
comedy scene where the three of us met and was
doing like Instagram videos. Really we had we had written
this character and we're basing it on like again. This
(38:21):
character was also, weirdly an amalgamation of people we have known.
But Meg, in her character work on Instagram did this
thing of having like bravado but also kind of a weird,
kind of stuttery way of speaking in a nervousness that
weirdly like was exactly what we wanted. And then I
did a stand up show that she was on, and
she was I had never seen anything like it. It
(38:43):
was To call it stand up is unfair. Honestly, it's
performance are like she you know, you like write a
set in jhone a set and she came in. She's like, okay,
hello everybody. Oh that's my daughter right there. Please be
nice to my daughter. It was just so like the
stream of consciousness bizarre. So like I'm going to show
you how to enter a party and make a scene.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
I can't.
Speaker 8 (39:04):
Even if you get a chance to see her performing,
you guys have to because it's like her live is incredible.
I've never seen someone so connected with the audience but
like off book and like you're chaotic, chaotic, but it's
like she's in control because it works and everyone's laughing.
Speaker 6 (39:23):
She's so free. I think that's the thing. She's so free,
and that's like a great thing to have in a
scene partner because it allows you to be free too.
You have to be because there's just like it's just
an electric thing and we have a lot of fun,
sometimes too much fun that she and myt the time.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
She's like, guys, get the story.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
Please, we make.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Each other laugh, you know, like she was.
Speaker 6 (39:51):
She and I both had a mutual affection for each other,
and that night we met, we were able to tell
one another and it was really like even though she
audition for the role, and even in her audition, she
was like she was remembering that she had like a
lamp on the floor.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
She was like, yeah, it was like an interrogation room.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
There was like one bowlb on a thing, and she's like,
I thought this would look good. Sorry, it became like.
Speaker 6 (40:13):
A performance piece just getting her to start the audition
over zoom.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
So there's no one like Meg's aalter.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Well, I was going to say, this is probably one
of the best things that ever happened to her to
be in the show, because she's just exploded as a result.
We're going to throw it to break. But first I'm
Katie Couric and I'm Adriana Fazzio, my plus one for
today's episode, and we'll be back with more of the
writers from Hacks right after this. We're back, And of
(40:55):
course I couldn't let them go without talking about a
scene from my favorite season, season three, and you'll hear why.
Speaker 9 (41:06):
Look, I'm your sister and I shouldn't have done it,
But you two weren't even sleeping in the same room
for months he made the first move and I.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Was only nineteen years old.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
To give me a fucking break, you stayed married to him?
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yeah, because he made me happy.
Speaker 9 (41:20):
I mean, you don't want to hear this, but we
were a better match than you two were.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
And thank god because.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
Because I lost my sister for it.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
Oh, I'm sorry. You've been so much pain.
Speaker 5 (41:32):
Well I have been.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I've also paid for it.
Speaker 9 (41:37):
I've taken all your punishment over the years, billboards for
all your specials on my street. You told Katie Couric,
I can't read.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
It's a joke.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Who thought of the Katie Curic line? I'm going to
give full credit where credit is due, Lucia, was that you, Paul?
Speaker 5 (41:55):
I don't remember.
Speaker 8 (41:56):
I actually, I think guys correct me if I believe
we have to credit our writer's room with that.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Yeah, I probably.
Speaker 8 (42:03):
I think one of our writers wrote that joke. And
and we will find their name. We will tell you names.
We'll find out who and tell you and you can
send them a gift basket.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Or I don't know them a Katie correct media mug.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
Okay, I guess.
Speaker 7 (42:23):
One of the things that we sometimes do is we'll
have like a lot, like an area and we'll highlight that.
We'll write a joke and we'll highlight it and send
it back to our writers, and we'll basically get pages
and pages of alts, and we won't know which of
our writers wrote which jokes, and then we'll go through
them and just pick our favorite one or two. Those
will be perhaps what will end up in the draft,
(42:44):
which is why we're saying we don't actually know it
was in that list of joke.
Speaker 5 (42:47):
But I will say I don't ever. I didn't think
of it as a Paline reference. I just thought that
it was a Deba either you did, Deborah No.
Speaker 7 (42:54):
I thought that was like just Deborah did a one
on one with you and she's talking about her sister
and she said, well, you know you can't read, And
that just was part of even for some reason.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
I mean, maybe maybe they thought of it that way.
But it's so funny because Luc and I just rewatched
Game Change and we were like, man, what a pivotal
moment in political history was.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
I had a good I thought Jay Roach did such
a good job. And Janny Strong, who I think is?
I think Danny Strong is so amazingly talented. I I
thought dope SIIC was one of the best shows. I'm
fantasticing as hell, but so good and so well written.
I just think Danny Strong is a genius. Well, Adriana,
(43:40):
I feel like I kind of picked this conversation as
I usually do. It's fine, it's all good. You did
he not put makeup on for this?
Speaker 7 (43:48):
No?
Speaker 1 (43:49):
I did tell so so.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Among the things, among the things that contribute to the
Katie Adrianna Deborah aerodynamic one. Katie always picks up my
shoes and says, are these yours? Are these John's her husband's.
Speaker 5 (44:02):
Because she said.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Achana has very big feet.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I wear a nine. But I literally put like lit
bom on before.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
There, and I feel like, you look like you have
mess scar on. I don't you just have very pretty eyelashes.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Then the show, it might be a reality show for
you guys.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Oh wow, I know pretty good, Adriana. I'll tell you
very quickly and then I'll let you guys go to
a million things to do. But Adriana uh went to
Notre Dame and she wrote her thesis about me and
what was the name of the thesis?
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Adriana Katie Kirk's career and shifting perceptions of femininity in
broadcast Journalissa thank.
Speaker 5 (44:45):
You Cool.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Was very smart because she somebody she knew, the mother
knew a producer I had worked with on Sixty Minutes
and eighty Way. Adriana tried every which way to get
to me, and I think my friend Deirdre actually was
a producer on sixty Minutes. She wrote me and said,
you know this girl is writing her thesis about you.
(45:08):
Can you do an interview with her? And you know
I do get a few requests like that, and I
was like, oh well. I was very flattered, like wow,
the whole thesis about me. That's gonna that's gonna be hard,
but okay. And I remember my assistant at the time
was like, you don't want to do this, really, do you?
And I was like, no, I feel like I should
(45:30):
do it, So go ahead to Adrian to pick up
the story from there.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
So then Notre Dame gave me a grant to do research,
and I flew to New York and I all of
a sudden heard from Katie as I landed at Guardia.
It was very made for TV, but you landed at
La Guardia. Why So I conveniently used the grant that
Notre Dame gave me to book a flight to New
York the weekend that Notre Dame had a football game
at Yankee Stadium, And then I was hoping that the
(45:54):
timing would work out and it did.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
Smart.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Then Katie invited me over to her part meant to
interview her, and I was hungover, slightly incredibly nervous and
like sweating through my like blouse that my professor like
made me wear.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Yeah, she was so cute.
Speaker 5 (46:14):
Do you guys have a photo of that? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (46:16):
Oh we do.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Then I was writing a book and she was graduating,
and I was like, hey, I's Rhanna, You're you know
more about me than I do, having written this thesis.
Do you want to come and help me write my book?
And she did, and then the pandemic happened. She ended
up living with us for like over a year.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Oh my god, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
And so anyway, Atreano knows me probably better than almost anyone,
including my husband.
Speaker 5 (46:44):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Okay, this is a show. This is a show.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
It's a show.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
It's a show.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
Why you guys live together?
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, wow, I want to be mindful of your time.
But I wanted to ask just a couple quick questions
about the logistics of making the show, because I've never
really been in a writer's room. I think I told
you all my daughter Ellie writes for this show called
The Boys Onto Side. Yeah, I think I mentioned that
at South By Southwest and I kind of understand what
(47:14):
it's like. But you know, when you sit down and
you're kind of talking about what is going to transpire
in each episode, is that the three of you kind
of just riffing?
Speaker 4 (47:26):
Do you all?
Speaker 1 (47:27):
I mean? And are there a lot of other writers
in the room. Can you just kind of give us
a sense of how something goes from an idea to
an actual episode.
Speaker 8 (47:37):
Yeah, so at the beginning, it's like the three of
us really kind of hone in on what we you know,
there's a tremendous amount of material that we built up
while we were developing this show and when we pitched it.
I think We've said this many times, but we you know,
when we pitched the show, we pitched the very last
scene of the series. So we know very much have
a roadmap of where we want to go for each
(47:59):
sea and in for the characters, and so three of us,
you know, we talk before a season of like what
we big picture ideas and what the ten polls are,
and you know, we do like blue sky big picture
can kind of be anything. And then we'll have you know,
sometimes we'll have a few outlines even written or you know,
(48:19):
things like that before the writer's room starts, because you know,
the thing with the show, it's like such a we're
very lucky to keep making it. But it's like by
the time we finish post on one season, we're doing
press for that season coming out, and then by the
time you know it, like the press hasn't ended, but
we're starting writing the next season. And so it's kind
of just like this constant train that's always on the
(48:41):
tracks and moving.
Speaker 4 (48:42):
You know, we talked me out. It's a it's a
party train. It's a fun trains NonStop but NonStop.
Speaker 8 (48:53):
Yeah, And so you know, then the writer's room, well,
we have a wonderful group of writers who you know,
pretty much all of them have been with us since
season one, and they come in and we you know,
the breaking of an episode is you talk big picture,
you say, okay, here are the ten polls of the season.
We know, for example, in season three, we know we're
(49:13):
building to Deborah getting this show and then taking the
job away from Eva and then blackmail. But so then
when you start getting more granular, it's like, okay, the
premiere episode, Deborah and Ava, they've been a part. We
know we're going to do a time jump, they have
to come back together. Where are they coming back together?
Like just kind of big idea pit, like pitches on
what that can be. Then you hone in on stuff.
(49:34):
And once you hone in on stuff, I'm getting very
granular and specific, but maybe it's interesting you start writing
it down. You start writing it down on cards, which
is kind of breaking of an episode, which is each
index card is a scene, and just saying like, okay,
deborahn Neva meet in the elevator. They have an awkward
interaction where Deborah's kind of cold to her and Ava
(49:54):
is taken aback by it. And you just do that
for a full episode until you have all the scenes
broken and you feel good about the beats of the
story and the turns and the character development and the resolution.
And then once you know we've all decided that that works,
someone goes off and outlines it, and then someone goes
(50:15):
off and writes the episode, and so yeah. We usually
the three of us write a half or so of
the episodes, maybe a little less of the season, and
then our writers write the others.
Speaker 4 (50:26):
But it's such a TV writing. The thing I love
about it is it's like.
Speaker 8 (50:29):
Such a collaborative process that like sometimes when people would
be like, you know, I would when I was a
staff writer in Parks and Rack or good Place, They'd
be like, oh, you wrote that episode. I could tell
you wrote that episode, And I'm like, everyone write, you
know what I mean, Like it's it's it's which is
what's so wonderful about it and like so so fun
is that it's really collaborative.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
And Lucci do you all have you all directed episodes?
I know, Lucia, you have done a number of episodes, right,
I mean I should know this. I apologize, but tell
me about direct.
Speaker 7 (51:01):
I direct most of them. Paul has also done I
think you've done. Has it been to each season?
Speaker 5 (51:07):
Yes, so Paul is directed at least yeah, to each season.
Speaker 7 (51:10):
And we've had a couple guests come and do one
or two episodes of season. But but I usually do
what a six or so at a season something with
that of the eight or nine or ten.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
And Jen, don't you want don't you want to direct?
Speaker 4 (51:25):
You know, I get this question a lot.
Speaker 8 (51:28):
I've been really spoiled by my creative collaboration with two
phenomenal directors because I'm not I'm not lacking in feeling
the show is in very good hands. But if I
want the show to start going downhill, I definitely will Doret.
Speaker 7 (51:44):
We always say we want her to direct, but you
know we can't force her.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
You know, you say the show going downhill, and I
you know it must be sort of when I said
earlier on about you know, it's both exhilarating but a
lot of pressure. You know, these characters do have to
evolve and new things have to happen, and you all
have to come up with new storylines. And I think
season three was really I found it more dramatic in
(52:13):
some ways than comedic, although of course there's so many
comedic moments. But you really started to understand Debra's journey.
I hate the word journey. Don't hate the word journey,
like we need to strip that from the lexicon because
it just is so overused by breast cancer. Journey's journey anyway,
(52:34):
but you know, tell me about kind of what went
into that and where you go from here. Obviously you
go from she got the late night talk show, right,
and that I can't imagine doesn't provide just endless storylines
and fun things about staffing and all sorts of stuff. Right,
(52:55):
You can introduce all kinds of characters, but can you
just talk about sort of the evolution of her character
and where you see the show going in season four?
If you guys, are you starting to wait? When does
season four come.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
Out next spring?
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Next next spring? But so we're starting to shoot in September.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Yes, yeah, we're writing it now.
Speaker 6 (53:17):
We're about halfway through, well a little bit more than
halfway through writing season four. We always knew season three
was going to be her Deborah's quest to get this
late night job which was opening up. And you know
the idea of late night. Obviously, late night is such
like an institution in the comedy world, and it was
the thing that you like. I think that for stand
ups it was like the marquee job, the thing that
(53:37):
they all wanted to do, and if you were a
stand up, it was the show you wanted to be
on because it could make your career. And so we
always wanted to build to this season. But now that
we're in season three and you understand the characters more
and you get to see, you know, I think, a
different gear for each of them. So we got to
get underneath the characters. We get to meet Deborah's sister,
(53:59):
which was obviously a point of trauma for her since
her husband left her for her sister. We got to
get some more you know, heartfelt moments from Jimmy and
Kayla because now we've been with them and while they
are the comedic duo and oftentimes comedic relief, that we
got to see a little bit more of what makes
them tick. And so yeah, I think partially because the
stakes are so high for Deborah in this stage in
(54:22):
her career, it lent itself to being emotional and in
some in some cases more dramatic. But I think that
was the thing for us, is that we always wanted
to make a show that was both heartfelt and hard funny,
and we never saw that to the degree that I
hope we get to do because we have a show
(54:43):
about comedians who get to deliver jokes. Like Deborah's love
language is joking. She's addicted to telling jokes. She cannot
not make a joke about something even you know, DJ,
her daughter after feeling very maligned in that AA meeting
or that NA meeting, is like, don't make jokes, Like
she just can't stop making joke folks. So we get
to how our cake and eat it too, which is
(55:03):
make a show about comedy where we get to tell
hard jokes but then also show the real life moments
that are hard and sad and you know, real for
these characters too. And then season four, like you say,
it's like, we're off to the races. Because while getting
that job was a huge challenge for Deborah, launching a
(55:24):
late night show and having it be a success is
an even bigger challenge.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Are you going to be talking about you know, it's
interesting because I know, I'm sure you all do too,
people who work on late night shows. Nobody's really watching
them anymore on television. They're watching them online the next day.
You know, the ratings are I don't want to say infinitesimal,
but they're not nearly what you would think they would
be or you know, what they were in the day
(55:50):
before digital you know, before iPhones and online stuff. Are
you going to be dealing with that or is that
to complex? But I feel like, if you if you
want it really of the moment, you're going to have
to talk about this stuff, will you? And if not,
I just gave you a terrific idea.
Speaker 7 (56:10):
I mean, one of the things that we are going
to be kind of tackling is the idea of the
glass cliffs, which is that you know, women oftentimes in
business especially are kind of offered hired job or you know,
CEO jobs or positions of power you know, right before
(56:31):
kind of the downfall of the company, as sometimes as
a scapegoat, sometimes.
Speaker 5 (56:35):
As a like glass resort.
Speaker 7 (56:36):
Okay, finally, final, let's give it to a woman now
that we've kind of already sunk the ship or whatever
it is, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Familiar with that phenomenon.
Speaker 7 (56:44):
Yeah, so for us, that's definitely something that will be tackling,
and like you said, it is of the moment. And also,
you know, I think that's part of why Debra is
given the show, you know, is because so you know,
it's almost impossible to have a successful late show, but
if there's anybody crazy enough to make something as success,
(57:04):
it's sub Evans.
Speaker 5 (57:05):
So that's definitely part of what season four is a dow.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
And I'm so glad, you know, because really it's really ridiculous.
I just wrote an op ed in the New York
Times about how there will be no female anchors of
evening news broadcasts after Nora O'donnald steps down after the election.
And you know, that is a declining industry or declining
(57:29):
format for sure, But it's still attracts about, gosh, nineteen
million people a night now. Granted they're all out buying
fix it in and depends. But you know, if you
look at the commercials, you're like, whoa. But you know,
I think it's so important in it it really it
(57:51):
bothers me. That's still with the exception of Samantha Bee,
there really haven't been any successful and of course Joan
Verse for that moment in time, successful late night comedians.
And I think it's you know, it shows a real
bankruptcy of imagination for programmers and audiences.
Speaker 6 (58:15):
Honestly, absolutely, yeah, I think that's I mean, that's very
much part of the ethos of the show is about
how unfair that is and how, you know, in this
world we get to do it. But you know, we
were asked in an interview, do you think you'll see
a female president or a female late night host first,
and we said, President, it's a really weird thing that,
(58:38):
you know that they haven't been given the chance. And
I think that the same goes for broadcast journalism. It
is it is really wild because audiences are also largely,
if not equally, female, you know, I think women just
have a greater ability to empathize and watch someone in
(59:01):
a different gender role than their own. And I think
there is still like a weird ingrained thing even in storytelling,
even in shows, you know, like especially in comedies, there
are not a ton of female at comedies. Yes, of
course they've been fantastic ones, and we talked about many
of our favorites that were on Nick at Night, but
they really don't have the same degree I don't think
(59:22):
of respect and often instant notoriety that ones that are
led by men do.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Thank you all so much, as you know, we've already said,
we're such fans of yours, such fans of the show.
And I feel like, you know, as somebody who's the
mother of a writer, I feel like writers don't get
enough credit because without them, these shows just wouldn't be anything.
I mean, obviously the actors bring it to life, but
(59:50):
the writing is so good and the stories and the
characters are so I think beautifully drawn. That we were
just very excited to spend a little time with you.
So thank you all so much.
Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
This was so fun. Thank you, Thank you for having us.
It's a dream come true.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Yeah, you trying to anything else before we go.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
The one thing I was going to let you guys
know is we solicited questions from Katie's audience ahead of this,
and my favorite comments not question was I use SBF
fifty on my hands now because of Debra Vance.
Speaker 8 (01:00:23):
Love it that that's good one one liver spot at
a time, because, as she says, you can't get a
hand job.
Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Thanks everybody, Thank you so much, Thanks for listening everyone.
If you have a question for me, a subject you
want us to cover, or you want to share your
thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out.
(01:00:57):
You can leave a short message at six oh nine
five one two five five five, or you can send
me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear
from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and
Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric,
and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and
(01:01:18):
our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller
composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
(01:01:41):
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hi everyone, I'm Kittie Couric and this is Next Question. Okay,
this is a bonus episode of Next Question, and I
must say a pretty fun one. First of all, I've
got my plus one today and it's none other than
my sidekick, Adriana Fazzio. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, thank you. Yes,
(00:27):
she's terrific, Adriana. How excited are you to be here
with me?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I am so excited. I'm usually silently next to you,
but now I get to mic today.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And why are you excited? Fazzio?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I'm excited because you and I both love the show
Hacks on Max, which rhymes. And we get to interview
the three writers today, Jen Statski, Paul w Downs and
Lucia Anello.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
That's right. And when we watch this show, what do
we always say, faz.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We say that we are the real life Dubbor Vance
and Ava Daniels.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
It's true for about or for worse.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Although we're not toxic.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
No, well, I don't think they're toxic. Do you think
they're toxic?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I do.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
They are toxic maybe in moments, but then they have
other moments of real just true affection and I don't
know and connection, but anyway, I digress. First of all,
they were so nice to spend so much time with us.
But here is our conversation with the writers of our
(01:26):
favorite show, Hacks.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
First of all, I can't tell you how excited Atriona
and I both are that you all have carved out
a little time and your incredibly busy schedules to talk
to us about Hacks. Because we love the show. We're
obsessed with the show, and we actually think the show
is about us. We do well. I'm an older, I'm
(02:01):
sort of you know, I'm Deborah Vance and Adriana is
Ava and we laugh about it all the time, and actually,
following this podcast, we'd like to talk about a show
based on us if you all have to do it,
and you know, I know you think we're kidding, but
we're actually not kidding.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Okay, love that.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I'm sure We're open for pitches. Let's do it.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
First of all, I also want to say congratulations because
it must be an incredible feeling. I know you all
have had a lot of success in other shows, and
we can talk about those, but I feel like Hacks
has become so huge and has made such a mark. Paul,
let me start with you. I mean, what is it
(02:45):
like having such a hugely successful show. It must be thrilling,
but also kind of a lot of pressure, right.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
Well, it is a lot of pressure in that I
think we've had such a great response and people, you know,
who tell us that the show resonates with them, we
just want to make it better every season for them.
And you know, as people who love film and television,
I love it when a show just gets better and better,
and so I think there's pressure in that way. But
(03:14):
knowing how much content in the world there is and
how much great television there is, it is so gratifying
that it's cut through because you never know, you know,
we feel very very lucky that people have found the
show and really respond to it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Luccio, what about you?
Speaker 7 (03:29):
Yeah, very similar sentiment, which is just like you know,
I think, especially when people tell us how much the
show means to them and how much they feel seen
and connect to it, or say, you know, like I
watched it with my dad when he was sick and
it was something we could laugh at together.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
You know, stories like that.
Speaker 7 (03:47):
They're so sweet and touching, But also it makes me
want to make the show good for those people and
so that is really a huge source of the almost
abilitating anxiety I feel in general about making the shows,
Like I really just don't want to disappoint people, and
I want, like Paul saying, to give them more of
(04:07):
what they feel like they love about the show, but also,
you know, still make the show that we want to make.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
So it is.
Speaker 7 (04:16):
It is a lot of pressure, but it really comes
from having such gratefulness of being able to even make
a show right now, Like the industry is in such
a weird place of being able to be even writing
a season four of a show, which we're doing right now,
feels like such a rarity.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
And Jen, bring it home, Jen.
Speaker 8 (04:33):
No pressure, no everything, these guys said, And I think also,
you know, just to get to make a comedy right
now in twenty twenty four, we feel really privileged and lucky.
Like we the three of us. You know, the show
is about creative collaboration. It's about two people who are
lit up and have a love of comedy and it's
what drives them. And that's very much so the story
(04:55):
of the three of us. We met doing comedy at
the UCB in New York and we love it.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And upright citizens brigade for you neophyte listeners.
Speaker 8 (05:05):
Yeah, and so to get to do that and make
this comedy show with people that I meant like in
a sketch group and like a theater underneath the grocery
store is like feels really cool and special and we
just I don't know, Yeah, there is there is pressure
with it, but you try to just focus on how
lucky you are.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Are you Canadian, by the way, because you say a
bout I know.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Okay, so this is so talking about it all the time.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I'm glad she's either Canadian or from Baltimore.
Speaker 8 (05:33):
I'm glad we're getting into this, Katie. So I'm from
I'm from Boston and my.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Dad is what the hell is about about?
Speaker 8 (05:41):
I know, it's so strange, it does pop out some sids.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
What happened? Two things happened.
Speaker 8 (05:46):
I think when I went to I had I had
a pretty thick Boston accent because my dad is from
South Boston and has like a really thick South the accent.
I think when I went to NYU, I kind of
lost the accent. But then I did date someone from
Canada for a long time, and I think I picked.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Up started talking like that.
Speaker 7 (06:04):
I started.
Speaker 8 (06:04):
I think I picked up something. So shout out to
Brian Bernstein. If you're listening to every piece of media
I do. You're still in my life every day.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Hey, I'm big in Canada.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Paul, I believe it. I believe it.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
So Lucie, I guess you're the best person to bring
together the connective tissue A. Jen was talking a little
bit about how you all met, but then also how
Hacks became a show.
Speaker 7 (06:34):
Yeah, so Paul and Jen and I, well, we originally
all met when I'm Paul and I met at a
level one UCB class, and then Jen and I maybe
two or three years later or something like that, met
because we were the only girls in a.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Kind of a sketch comedy group.
Speaker 7 (06:51):
But then the boys stopped emailing us and so we
were kind of kicked out of the group. But Jen
and I remained friends, and then I introduced paulin gen
around that same time, and we were just friends, you know,
and then we I guess maybe when is the first
time we worked together? Was it on Broad City that
we actually well other than work making the videos?
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Yeah, that's so crazy.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
It was.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
It might have been It might have been Broad City
or maybe I had done punch up for something you
guys did.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I don't know, because I did feel like we took
their material and made it funnier Chan.
Speaker 8 (07:25):
Yes, which is it's hard to do because they're incredibly funny,
the best writers.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
So I tried, at least. I don't know that I succeeded.
Speaker 7 (07:34):
She she always does, but yeah, and so we basically
we started writing together in different ways. Punched up a
movie that we made rough Night when she was on
set with us, and we wrote a spec script. The
three of us wrote a movie that we tried to
get made that we have yet to.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Succeed in doing. But then we were writing.
Speaker 7 (07:56):
Jen and I were kind of helping Paul on his
Netflix special all the characters called Up Down Search that
and on our drive from Boston to Portland, Maine, which
is where we were shooting a segment for it, we
started talking about, you know, women in this industry, especially
stand ups, who like you, kind of only read about
when their obituary happens, and you're like, oh, yeah, why
(08:18):
didn't they ever have the same kind of careers that
their male counterparts had, And we were just kind of
talking about this idea of what it's like to be
a woman of a certain age who's had to, you know,
try to make it in that industry at a certain time,
and then what that does to your personality, What does
that do to your psyche, what does that do to
your career, and how you have to kind of gravitate
(08:39):
towards certain kinds of materials to survive. Maybe is it
kind of what you initially intended to do with your comedy,
but it's a way to make money, and so that
kind of is like where we.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
Started having this idea.
Speaker 7 (08:50):
And then the idea of like a younger comedian, a
younger woman kind of learning to respect the older comedian
through working with her, and just kind of what that
generational conflict would do you just felt like a great
story engine. It felt like a great character engine. We
kind of just never stopped talking about it. Whether we
were hanging out or working together, We just kind of
always would email each other ideas, Oh.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
It could be this idea or that idea. Like it
just kind of over the course of a.
Speaker 7 (09:13):
Couple of years, from like I think twenty fifteen until
twenty nineteen, it's just something we were always working on
on the back burner and then twenty nineteen.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
We were like, it really just felt like the right
time to pitch it.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And it took you five years, as you said, from
kind of the conception to getting it ready to pitch,
and you were all busy doing other things. I know, Jen,
you were on the good place, right And weren't you
guys also working on broad City? Lucia and Paul, As
Lucia mentioned, you both had plenty of other projects, but
(09:44):
this thing was just sort of this nagging idea that
wouldn't go away. And I want to talk about the
characters and who they're based on in a minute, but
if you will indulge me for a moment, I'm sort
of interested in all of yours gin stories because I
love to know kind of why people become what they become.
(10:06):
And I know, Paul, you grew up in New Jersey.
You describe yourself as kind of a weird, quiet, shy kid,
and you had parents who were super funny, and you
kind of related. I think you said that that comedy
kind of fueled you, and it also made you less lonely,
it made you connect with people. See, I did my
research polem. Can you talk a little bit about that
(10:29):
and how ultimately you decided to pursue this as a career.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I was.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
I certainly actually wasn't shy, is the truth. But I
was very eccentric and strange as a child, I think,
and my parents certainly fan the flames of that. They
you know, my mom and I used to watch Nick
at night and we watched I Love Lucy and Bewitched
and you know, whatever else was on. And my dad
was a big fan of the Marx Brothers and mel
(10:58):
Brooks and you know, so I was watching Young Frankenstein
probably before I even understood what half of the references were.
And yeah, it was the thing as a kid that
you know, I think a lot of people get into
comedy because it's, you know, the thing that, especially when
you share a sense of humor with somebody, you find
your people. And certainly for me, it was also a
(11:19):
way of, you know, you can avoid being bullied if
you can make people laugh, So that was certainly it
was a defense mechanism in a way too. And yeah,
I just always loved it, and I loved Saturday Night Live,
and I loved watching Robin Williams, and I just wanted
to do what he and those people did, so I
started writing for myself. In high school, I would do
(11:40):
character monologues because I went to a school that had
a great performing arts program, and there was this thing
called the black Box Theater, and at lunch time you
would do like lunch room performances, like a coffee shop
for the kids who weren't sitting at the popular table.
You could go and do like coffee shop poetry or
character monologue.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Oh, I love your school. I'm so glad they did that.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, the Pingree School.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
Shout out to al Romano and Patricia Wheeler who were
running the program there at the Pingree School. But yeah,
it was like a performance at arts high school. And
I think that certainly started me off. And then when
I went to college, I did improv in sketch and college,
and so when I moved to New York after I
was doing stand up and I was auditioning for things,
and I wanted to be a comedic actor. But it
(12:24):
wasn't until I started doing improv again. And actually it
was day one of our first improv class that I
met Luccia and I told them this recently, it's so weird.
Maybe it's just because you know, someone's going to be
important in your life. But I remember the moment of
meeting both general Lucia, and I don't have that for
many people in my life, which is pretty wild.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
What do you remember?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Well?
Speaker 6 (12:49):
I showed up early to class because I was so nervous,
and Luccia came about ten or fifteen minutes late, very nonplussed,
and said what are we doing? And I was like,
who is this girl who was so confident and walked
in and was like essentially. And then very shortly thereafter,
I was doing a scene in this class and she
did turn to the instructor and said, you should write
(13:11):
that line down, which is not something to do in improv,
but she was already directing that's funny.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
And then I knew of.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
Jen because I had read some of the sketches that
Lucia and Gen were writing, and for Lucia to be
lit up by somebody meant they were very special. And
I know Lucia spoke so fondly of Jen and how
funny she was, so I was very excited to meet her.
And then I met her at a coffee shop and
I was struck by well, I did say, wow, funny
(13:40):
and beautiful which is probably very inappropriate nowadays.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It's like I couldn't do.
Speaker 8 (13:43):
It, but it's interesting because it was in front of
your girlfriend at the time.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
I'm not that jealous tight, but that's the kind of
guy I am.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
No, Yeah, I said, you know what, He's totally right.
I agree, And that's.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
An exclusive Miss Katie about that.
Speaker 7 (14:03):
Yeah, breaking news is such an old timey line to
kind of do.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Also at like what were you twenty four twenty fives?
Speaker 6 (14:11):
Truly am I grout show Mark speaking of Yeah, I
done the harp, putting my leg in her hand when
I shook her hand.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
But it was very old school thought Villian almost.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, Jen, I know that you really like the Mary
Tyler Moore Show and that was part of the reason
you wanted to become a TV writer. What was it
about that show that drew you to the industry.
Speaker 8 (14:32):
Yeah, I was like, like I was an only child
and my parents were around a lot.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
I watched a lot of Nicked Night, like old tea.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Like this is a this is some connective tissue nicked Ye.
Were you a big Nicked Night person?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
I watched it. I see liked night.
Speaker 8 (14:50):
Anonymous thought I were more Yeah, she was cooler, that
is true.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I don't know, but were you watching the Mary Tyler
Moore Show on Nicked Night, Because, by the way, Jen,
you and I are kind of on the same page
because I became a journalist because of the Mary telling
Marsh and absolutely loved that show. And I thought it
was so interesting when I read that you thought the
(15:16):
pilot was the perfect pilot, and then it made me.
I've rewatched the Mary Taylor Moore Show on YouTube or
on what yeah, I guess on YouTube, and do you
remember exactly what was in the pilot? Is that when
Lou Grant said you have spunk and I hate sponsor.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yeah, yeah, So the pilot, to me, that is exactly it.
Speaker 8 (15:36):
During the interview when Lou and Mary meat for the
first time, it is that, you know, I think the
reason it's such a good pilot is like that in
that interview scene, their rapport and their comedic games are
so evident right immediately, and you immediately are like, oh,
I want one hundred more episodes of these two doing this.
And so I thought about that scene a lot during
(15:57):
the deborn Ava interview scene in our pilot because it
kind of had the same exact feeling which was you
need to buy into the dynamic between these characters immediately
for it to work, and you know Mary, they have
such crazy good chemistry in that scene. It's so funny.
And then the other reason I think it's the perfect
pilot and it did influence me wanting to be a
(16:18):
TV sitcom writer is for me like sitcoms are so
special and wonderful when they are both really funny but
have heart and make you feel things, even in thirty
minutes twenty one minutes on Network, and that pilot is
so funny, but it also is so heart wrenching at
the end when her you know X comes back and
(16:40):
she's moved and she's like kind of kind of been
longing for him and he comes back in our life
and she's finally realized her value and it's just like
a two line thing. But when he says like, take
care of yourself, Mary, and she goes, I think I
just did that like made me choke up. That made
me choke up as like a ten year old, And
I was like, oh, this this is so funny and
(17:01):
also so real and emotional that those are the stories
I want to tell and what I want to do.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
So yeah, it was incredibly influential to me.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
We're going to throw it to break but first, I'm
Katie Couric and I'm Adriana Fasio, my plus one for
today's episode, and we'll be back with more of the
writers from Hacks right after this. If you want to
get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news
(17:33):
and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture,
sign up for our daily newsletter, Wakeupcall by going to
Katiecuric dot com. We're back with the writers from our
favorite show, Hacks. Luccia, I know that you didn't get
(17:57):
into a school you wanted to get into and you
ended up waitressing at a restaurant called KOI. Yes, and
even before that, tell me what drove you to this
line of work?
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Yeah, I mean I I actually kind of what I
really wanted to do when I was younger was be
an MTV VJ.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
That was like what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I was like that just you wanted to be Martha Quinn, Yes,
I literally did.
Speaker 7 (18:22):
I was like, that's right, I'm going to hang out
with rock stars and just kind of hang out.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
I get famous doing it that.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
She was perfect doing that.
Speaker 9 (18:29):
Well.
Speaker 8 (18:29):
Yeah, yeah, but she has an amazing music taste, so that's
very sweet.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
But that didn't work out. So then, you know, I
also loved comedy.
Speaker 7 (18:38):
I loved watching you know, SNL and I was obsessed
with The Simpsons and Daria was really influential to.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Me as a kid. But then when I went to
college and my undergrad I.
Speaker 7 (18:49):
Did go I went to Columbia and I was and
I loved the film studies program there, but I didn't
get into grad school. I wanted to go to NYU
Film School and I didn't get in, and so take
that and film school, so I started I started doing
improv classes because I knew I literally like googled Amy Poehler.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
I was like, what does she? How did she get
to because it was.
Speaker 7 (19:09):
A time where Tina and Amy were the weekend update hosts.
And then that led me to UCB, and so I
moved back to New York after college, I like took
this summer off and then that's where I met Paul.
But I kind of, you know, i'd studied film studies
and so I wasn't really planning on being a director necessarily,
even though like you know, I had now seen so
(19:29):
many films as an undergrad that it was really you know,
I had a certain language to discuss it, and I
actually thought maybe I would go into criticism because I
had a professor.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
There, Andrew Sarra, So I really learned a lot from
and loved.
Speaker 7 (19:41):
But then when we started, you know, like performing and
doing improv and sketches and all that, I did start
to gravitate towards the directing. But part of what I
felt like was a great education for directing was waitressing.
And yes I worked at a couple of restaurants in
New York, but the tenure, my longest tenure was like Croy,
which is that the Brian Parker tell.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I loved their coursby Rice with.
Speaker 7 (20:05):
It's fantastic, and I have to say they're like the
ogs of that. I don't remember having it before or
seeing it now. It's kind of everywhere, but.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
I know you Rice.
Speaker 7 (20:19):
But I also grew up in the restaurant business. My
parents own restaurants and my dad was a chef and
my mom designed them. It was a pastry chef, and
also they ran the restaurant together. So I also grew
up with a husband and wife in front of me
working together as Paul, and I do now?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And and where was that again, Lucia?
Speaker 5 (20:37):
This was an Amherst, Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Oh that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Are you the one that's behind the Papa Gino's pertucciese choke?
Speaker 5 (20:43):
Actually no, because I would never go to another pizza.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Place, like I would never go.
Speaker 8 (20:47):
To those places because yeah, she wouldn't be caught dead
in a Papainos.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Papa Gino's family.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
So I thank you for your six family.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Also, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
I'm not I met my own family.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Literally, you're an an yellow family.
Speaker 7 (21:06):
Yeah, I'm in a yellow so but I definitely felt like,
you know, working as a waitress was such a great
education for show running and directing, because you deal with
front of house, back of house, you know, which is
very much like dealing with networks and executives and you know, actors,
and then also.
Speaker 5 (21:21):
Back of the house, which is also kind of actors
but like.
Speaker 7 (21:23):
Crew people, and you know, learning the nuts and bolts
of what goes into it and having to kind of
shape shift depending on who you were dealing with, and
like do I need to just be brief here and
just get it done, or do I go over here?
Speaker 5 (21:35):
And you know, do they want to show or whatever
it is.
Speaker 7 (21:38):
It's like everybody needs something different and you need it
all to decide immediately. And also things are moving one
hundred miles per hour and you get in the weeds
in both scenarios where you're like, oh my god, it's
so much right now, how am I going to get
through this? And it's just one foot in front of
the other and putting out fires and and so I
really actually feel that waitressing was like the most incredible
education I could have asked for.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And maybe maybe you could do a show about a restaurant,
maybe based in Chicago behind you chef and all your
experiences at Coy.
Speaker 7 (22:11):
You know what's so funny is that? Okay, so now
I can't do that show because of the bear. Great show,
but also, you know, the other thing that I'm very
passionate about is soccer.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
And I can't do yo.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So I'm like, what about a female soccer story. I
feel like they can't have the corner on the market
on soccer. I mean, I don't know. It seems like
people have short memories too, which is something you were
worried about because you guys had a big do you
like that seamless transition.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
That was good. I know what's going yet, but I'm loving.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
That because you guys had to take a big break
because Jean had some medical issues and then you had
the writers strike, and I know you were concerned that
viewers weren't going to stay with you or they were
going to move on, but I think nobody moved on.
I was so excited and Adrian, we were so excited
(23:02):
when the third season came on. Weren't we a trona?
We were so weird, so weird, and we were.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Like cracking up in the theater at south By Southwest,
like to a strange degree.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Oh that's great, thank.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
You, that's so nice.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Oh that's so goa. That was such a fun screening.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
That was really so fun.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
We were so happy you guys were able to come.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Well, we're your biggest fans, as I said, So, I
know you guys have said that Deborah is really an
amalgamation of a lot of female comedians.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Can you talk to us a little bit about building
out her character and what you might have pulled from who.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
That was sort of the biggest challenge in getting the
show ready to pitch was creating this history of this
iconic stand up, and yeah, basically in our history of
the character, she started doing a husband and wife live
comedy act, kind of like Nichols and May, Mike Nichols
and Elaine May, and they had a very public and
(23:56):
messy divorce. Not unlike Lucio Ballan Desiernez, she was you know,
maligned by managers. And we read Debbie Reynolds's autobiography and
there's obviously a lot of Joan Rivers. She has her
stand up life, but also her QVC life, and then
there's you know, there's other stand ups like Paula Poundstone
(24:17):
and Phyllis Diller, and she's sort of an amalgamation of
a lot of different women who you know, suffered in
dignity after indignity, especially in the industry of comedy. And
Ava is much more someone you know from sort of
our generation, though younger than us now, who came up,
you know, through a more traditional comedy writing path, although
(24:38):
she was plucked off of Twitter, as Debra says in
the pilot, But you know, both of them are our
characters that exist in our minds in the world of comedy.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
As someone who was an assistant, I can't imagine writing
Ava's character without having some lived experience of being an
assistant or a writer's assistant. John, how much of Ava
is based on the early days of your career.
Speaker 8 (25:03):
I mean, Ava is very much her experience as a
comedy writer is very much an amalgamation of all three
of ours, you know, having come up doing comedy. I
mean I was, I was a assistant to difficult people
at times, and so yeah, there's a little bit of
that in there. But I think you know, the thing
(25:25):
that Ava has at the beginning that hopefully none of
us had, is like all three of us, like like
we said, waitress saying, working in service industry, like kind
of pounding the pavement doing comedy like we didn't. I
guess I maybe I did get my first paid writing
job at twenty five, which is really young.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
But Ava is even more of like.
Speaker 8 (25:44):
Didn't have to pay her dues at all, like she
kind of in our backstory for her, like got this
job off of Twitter and didn't even finish college, so
in a way, like, yeah, she didn't have that until
she meets Debra, of course, and then she goes through
the hazing prices of working for dever Vance in season
one and beyond, never quite had anything as rough as
(26:08):
the gembre A dynamic, though thankfully not yet.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Anyway, I want to ask you guys about Hannah because
she's got a really interesting background too, and I know
that you all marvel at her acting chops, how committed
she is, and also what a great person she is.
I'd love to hear more about that, because we always
hear when people are creeps and not when they're really nice. Right,
(26:31):
But you know, she's got an interesting sort of family
history and comedy, and just tell us a little bit
about picking her for the role and where there are
a lot of people who auditioned. And I know you
can't tell us who auditioned and who didn't get the role,
although those stories are always so fascinating, But tell us
(26:52):
a little bit about selecting her for the role of Hannah.
Speaker 6 (26:56):
Yeah, we I think, I don't know, Jen, you counted
it one point, how many people.
Speaker 8 (27:00):
Read I think I looked at all the casting tapes
submissions we had gotten because we only you know, we
started doing readings for her in person, and then COVID
happened and so then everything switched to virtual and I
think at one point I tali it up and we
saw almost five hundred audition tapes for a Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Were they well known people or were they mostly.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
It was a combination.
Speaker 8 (27:24):
There was some definitely well known people, and then of
course a lot of people who, like Hannah, had not
really done much or people who had just been working.
We're working actors, you know. We always in the conception
of the show when we talked about casting, we didn't
lock ourselves into anything, but we always felt that it
was Gene and she'd be incredible, and like, you know,
that it would be a known performer for Deborah, and
(27:47):
then the dream was to find kind of a newer
discovery for Ava. So we were really open to getting
tapes from anyone and everyone, and we watched all of
those and Hannah really in her first tape and every
moment after that, every callback and to the test with Gene,
(28:08):
she just really surprised us. And you know, you you
the thing about it being a writer is you when
you audition people, you hear your writing and you're scene
over and over and over, and I will just speak
for myself, I was like, I can't hear this scene anymore.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
It's not good. This doesn't work.
Speaker 8 (28:26):
You know, like when people you know, we were lucky,
we had really wonderful people addition, but no, like you know,
you just sometimes I think it's not that, it's not
that and it's so specific. And when Hannah did it,
she just brought something so unique and new to it
but also familiar to us because we had been living
with this character for so long and we knew who
Aba was and who she was supposed to be. So
(28:48):
to get that combination of someone delivering on what you'd
envision but also bringing you know, newness and freshness, and like,
oh I never imagined that line that way, but that.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Works, That's what it should be.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Like.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
She really had that in space.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And it's so interesting that her mom is Lorraine Newman
from SNL And I know, you know that was that
was kind of exciting? Was she pretty much just writing
and not acting? Was this? I know because I think
I read Paul that you said it's just such a
shock that she had never acted before.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
Really oh crazy. In fact, I remember when Jeane found
out and she was like what Because some people just
have something that Hannah has, which is it isn't innate.
She has a gift for you know, she is just
so natural and so watchable, and also she's able, especially
in this season, to become so authentically emotional. You know,
(29:44):
she's never acting at something, she is feeling these feelings
of the character. She is so in the character. And
part of it, I think because she comes from a
family that valued comedy and worshiped comedy, like I think,
she has the same kind of reverence for comedy that
Ava has, so she really feels the character. And for us,
you know, we had Gene attached and she is a
(30:04):
national treasure. So part of the reason for the extensive
search was you want someone who can go toe to
toe with Gene, and if you're getting someone who's lesser known,
that's a very tall task. And also, you know, we
really wanted somebody that earned the role.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
And so actually, when.
Speaker 6 (30:22):
We googled Hannah, the only thing we could find was
she had done Colbert, which is ironic and very full
circle since doing Late Night is very much the white
whale for our main character. So she had done some
stand up and she is a stand up but that
was about it. And then we also discovered who her
mom was, and that her mom was Loraine Newman, who
(30:43):
all of us were fans of. But we also were like, oh, nope,
I hope people don't have the misconception that she got
her foot in the door because we had no idea
when she auditioned who she was, much less who her
mother was, you know what I mean. So it was
a really interesting thing that I think it gives her
so much to draw from in her actual life in
(31:03):
terms of what women in comedy have gone through and
in terms of like what comedy means to people. But
for us, we never we didn't ever want that to
precede her because she is so so good and she
is She's always like, well, I'm I'm a comedian. I
come from comedy, And we're like, sure, you're a comedian,
but you are a gifted actress.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
You are an.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Actresspitala And I guess she's been nominated for Emmy's but
hasn't won one yet. And I think this is going
to be her year. Kids. You know, you say, Jeane
Smart is a national treasure, and honestly, you know, as
somebody who was a big fan of hers, who watched
(31:42):
Designing Women, you know, I feel like she hasn't had
a platform like design since Designing Women to really show
her incredible skills and just how funny she is. Was
that a natural thing going to Smart? And I love
what Atrona was mentioning about this amalgamation of comedians, because
(32:05):
you know, these are kind of my generation, like Elaine Boosler,
like when it was last time you heard that name,
and Paula Poundstone and all these women who You're right
it was it must have been so hard for them
back in the day. But was Jean Smart just an
immediate thought from you all, or how did you come
up with her as the lead?
Speaker 5 (32:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (32:25):
It was a very short list, you know, and Genie's
very much at the top of that list. And I
think the thing we were searching for was somebody obviously
who could be a believable stand up, because if you
don't believe this woman is a stand up and like
kind of this iconic Eva, then the whole thing Paul's apart,
you're like, eh. But we knew that we wanted to
write towards some more dramatic elements and to be able
(32:47):
to find somebody who could do comedy and believably be
a stand up but also can do serious dramatic work.
And it has a resume that shows that it was
really hard there's some people that were like, that person's
so funny, but can they do drama?
Speaker 5 (33:02):
They've never really done it? Do they want to do it?
Is that going to be a stretch?
Speaker 7 (33:05):
But Gene was really the perfect person for us because
not only can she do comedy and drama in equal measure,
but there's something about also her stature, her aura that
just gives like this fabulous twist to it as well
and feels like this. You know, it's partly because she's
a tall, gorgeous blonde, but there's just something about she
has a command and she just draws your eye and
(33:27):
it just felt like that is what you kind of
need to believe that this is a woman whose entire
ecosystem circles her.
Speaker 6 (33:35):
And you know what not to diminish her prolific career
because she's been working, honestly, NonStop, she works so much.
But she was always one of our favorite things when
we would see Frasier. She stood out in that show
so much. And you know, when she did the Brady
Bunch movie, she plays like a really seen stealing person
in that movie. And it's crazy to think that she
very much embodies Debora because even though Jane has worked
(33:57):
forever and is beloved. She'd ever been number one on
the call sheet. She had never had a lead that
could show her range. So it was sort of like, Oh,
here's someone who maybe hasn't had their due to show
the world everything that she can do. And so in
that way, she very much was Debra Vance.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
And she's I think she's seventy three geen and you
meet shen't ask me. I mean she's she is so gorgeous.
I met her at gosh, I think I went to
a Vanity Fair party for the Oscars. I know I'm
very cool, and were walking out at the same time.
(34:35):
First of all, she's so lovely and I've interviewed her before,
but that lady is one tall drink of water. Yes,
she was amazing, and she's just so gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
When we met Jean and Hannah and all of you
at south By Southwest, Jean was presenting Hannah with a
an award, and their relationship in real life just seems
so authentic and so sweet. Did their Chemist Street Was
it obvious just from the first table read?
Speaker 7 (35:03):
It was actually from the audition, I would say, yeah,
it was just like an immediate even just the way
that they like, you know, there's something also about their.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
Gender expression that also just felt like the right thing.
Speaker 7 (35:14):
Where you know, Debra, I mean, Gene is just kind
of this like statuus, you know, female ideal, and Hannah
also so beautiful, but like has kind of you know,
she she showed up.
Speaker 5 (35:26):
In the Doc Martin's and the Gunians and it was
just kind of like.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
She had a grunge going.
Speaker 7 (35:31):
Yeah, just something about just the way that they looked
together that just felt right. And it's true that like
their relationship mirrored that, like, and they've really been there
for each other through a lot of hard, hard moments.
We've had some you know, really sad things happen on
our show.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I was going to mention because I talked to Jane
about this, and I think, you know, she was very
generous about talking to me because I lost my husband
a number of years ago, but she lost her husband
of thirty five years, I know, in March of twenty
twenty one. And you know, gosh, I guess work, at
(36:09):
least for me, it was really invaluable for me because
you could compartmentalize and focus on something other than your sadness.
But that must have been a tough period for her
and for you all for her.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
Right, Oh yeah, we've all I mean, and this is
overused this term, but we really have become family. You know,
you become that when you're together with people for so
long in so many places, and especially when you've been
through things like that. And I think, you know, it
happened during shooting. It was like the last couple of
weeks of season one, and.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I know that.
Speaker 6 (36:45):
Hannah was really there for her, and Caitlyn Olsen, who
plays her daughter on the show, was really there for her.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
You know.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
Jeane has now a thirteen year old and she has
two children. But it was really it was a very
hard time. But Jean, I think she wanted to finish
the show and come back and have you know.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
She didn't want the crew to be out of work.
Speaker 6 (37:06):
She was like, let's finish, and I think it was
nice for her to be back together with this little family.
But yeah, it was. It's been kind of crazy the
things that have happened. A lot of life has happened
behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
I wanted to ask you all, Sorry, Faz, you want
to ask something.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
I was going to ask Paul about Meg Stalter because
she's your counterpart on the show, and I love.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Her, love Meg Stalter Adron, and I love I mean,
we love everyone on the show. Paul, we also love
you on the show. Well, thank you very much. So yeah,
we think you're great and so funny, but thank you.
Meg is so funny. Yeah, and that first season especially
just so annoying and so hilarious. I felt for you
(37:54):
having her work for you. Tell us about her because
she kind of came came out of no where, didn't she.
Speaker 6 (38:01):
I mean, she's another one who this was her first
like television job. You know, she had been doing live
comedy and she is like she comes from the alt
comedy scene where the three of us met and was
doing like Instagram videos. Really we had we had written
this character and we're basing it on like again. This
(38:21):
character was also, weirdly an amalgamation of people we have known.
But Meg, in her character work on Instagram did this
thing of having like bravado but also kind of a weird,
kind of stuttery way of speaking in a nervousness that
weirdly like was exactly what we wanted. And then I
did a stand up show that she was on, and
she was I had never seen anything like it. It
(38:43):
was To call it stand up is unfair. Honestly, it's
performance are like she you know, you like write a
set in jhone a set and she came in. She's like, okay,
hello everybody. Oh that's my daughter right there. Please be
nice to my daughter. It was just so like the
stream of consciousness bizarre. So like I'm going to show
you how to enter a party and make a scene.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
I can't.
Speaker 8 (39:04):
Even if you get a chance to see her performing,
you guys have to because it's like her live is incredible.
I've never seen someone so connected with the audience but
like off book and like you're chaotic, chaotic, but it's
like she's in control because it works and everyone's laughing.
Speaker 6 (39:23):
She's so free. I think that's the thing. She's so free,
and that's like a great thing to have in a
scene partner because it allows you to be free too.
You have to be because there's just like it's just
an electric thing and we have a lot of fun,
sometimes too much fun that she and myt the time.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
She's like, guys, get the story.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
Please, we make.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Each other laugh, you know, like she was.
Speaker 6 (39:51):
She and I both had a mutual affection for each other,
and that night we met, we were able to tell
one another and it was really like even though she
audition for the role, and even in her audition, she
was like she was remembering that she had like a
lamp on the floor.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
She was like, yeah, it was like an interrogation room.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
There was like one bowlb on a thing, and she's like,
I thought this would look good. Sorry, it became like.
Speaker 6 (40:13):
A performance piece just getting her to start the audition
over zoom.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
So there's no one like Meg's aalter.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Well, I was going to say, this is probably one
of the best things that ever happened to her to
be in the show, because she's just exploded as a result.
We're going to throw it to break. But first I'm
Katie Couric and I'm Adriana Fazzio, my plus one for
today's episode, and we'll be back with more of the
writers from Hacks right after this. We're back, And of
(40:55):
course I couldn't let them go without talking about a
scene from my favorite season, season three, and you'll hear why.
Speaker 9 (41:06):
Look, I'm your sister and I shouldn't have done it,
But you two weren't even sleeping in the same room
for months he made the first move and I.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Was only nineteen years old.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
To give me a fucking break, you stayed married to him?
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yeah, because he made me happy.
Speaker 9 (41:20):
I mean, you don't want to hear this, but we
were a better match than you two were.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
And thank god because.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
Because I lost my sister for it.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
Oh, I'm sorry. You've been so much pain.
Speaker 5 (41:32):
Well I have been.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I've also paid for it.
Speaker 9 (41:37):
I've taken all your punishment over the years, billboards for
all your specials on my street. You told Katie Couric,
I can't read.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
It's a joke.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Who thought of the Katie Curic line? I'm going to
give full credit where credit is due, Lucia, was that you, Paul?
Speaker 5 (41:55):
I don't remember.
Speaker 8 (41:56):
I actually, I think guys correct me if I believe
we have to credit our writer's room with that.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Yeah, I probably.
Speaker 8 (42:03):
I think one of our writers wrote that joke. And
and we will find their name. We will tell you names.
We'll find out who and tell you and you can
send them a gift basket.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Or I don't know them a Katie correct media mug.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
Okay, I guess.
Speaker 7 (42:23):
One of the things that we sometimes do is we'll
have like a lot, like an area and we'll highlight that.
We'll write a joke and we'll highlight it and send
it back to our writers, and we'll basically get pages
and pages of alts, and we won't know which of
our writers wrote which jokes, and then we'll go through
them and just pick our favorite one or two. Those
will be perhaps what will end up in the draft,
(42:44):
which is why we're saying we don't actually know it
was in that list of joke.
Speaker 5 (42:47):
But I will say I don't ever. I didn't think
of it as a Paline reference. I just thought that
it was a Deba either you did, Deborah No.
Speaker 7 (42:54):
I thought that was like just Deborah did a one
on one with you and she's talking about her sister
and she said, well, you know you can't read, And
that just was part of even for some reason.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
I mean, maybe maybe they thought of it that way.
But it's so funny because Luc and I just rewatched
Game Change and we were like, man, what a pivotal
moment in political history was.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
I had a good I thought Jay Roach did such
a good job. And Janny Strong, who I think is?
I think Danny Strong is so amazingly talented. I I
thought dope SIIC was one of the best shows. I'm
fantasticing as hell, but so good and so well written.
I just think Danny Strong is a genius. Well, Adriana,
(43:40):
I feel like I kind of picked this conversation as
I usually do. It's fine, it's all good. You did
he not put makeup on for this?
Speaker 7 (43:48):
No?
Speaker 1 (43:49):
I did tell so so.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Among the things, among the things that contribute to the
Katie Adrianna Deborah aerodynamic one. Katie always picks up my
shoes and says, are these yours? Are these John's her husband's.
Speaker 5 (44:02):
Because she said.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Achana has very big feet.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I wear a nine. But I literally put like lit
bom on before.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
There, and I feel like, you look like you have
mess scar on. I don't you just have very pretty eyelashes.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Then the show, it might be a reality show for
you guys.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Oh wow, I know pretty good, Adriana. I'll tell you
very quickly and then I'll let you guys go to
a million things to do. But Adriana uh went to
Notre Dame and she wrote her thesis about me and
what was the name of the thesis?
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Adriana Katie Kirk's career and shifting perceptions of femininity in
broadcast Journalissa thank.
Speaker 5 (44:45):
You Cool.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Was very smart because she somebody she knew, the mother
knew a producer I had worked with on Sixty Minutes
and eighty Way. Adriana tried every which way to get
to me, and I think my friend Deirdre actually was
a producer on sixty Minutes. She wrote me and said,
you know this girl is writing her thesis about you.
(45:08):
Can you do an interview with her? And you know
I do get a few requests like that, and I
was like, oh well. I was very flattered, like wow,
the whole thesis about me. That's gonna that's gonna be hard,
but okay. And I remember my assistant at the time
was like, you don't want to do this, really, do you?
And I was like, no, I feel like I should
(45:30):
do it, So go ahead to Adrian to pick up
the story from there.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
So then Notre Dame gave me a grant to do research,
and I flew to New York and I all of
a sudden heard from Katie as I landed at Guardia.
It was very made for TV, but you landed at
La Guardia. Why So I conveniently used the grant that
Notre Dame gave me to book a flight to New
York the weekend that Notre Dame had a football game
at Yankee Stadium, And then I was hoping that the
(45:54):
timing would work out and it did.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
Smart.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Then Katie invited me over to her part meant to
interview her, and I was hungover, slightly incredibly nervous and
like sweating through my like blouse that my professor like
made me wear.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Yeah, she was so cute.
Speaker 5 (46:14):
Do you guys have a photo of that? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (46:16):
Oh we do.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Then I was writing a book and she was graduating,
and I was like, hey, I's Rhanna, You're you know
more about me than I do, having written this thesis.
Do you want to come and help me write my book?
And she did, and then the pandemic happened. She ended
up living with us for like over a year.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Oh my god, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
And so anyway, Atreano knows me probably better than almost anyone,
including my husband.
Speaker 5 (46:44):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Okay, this is a show. This is a show.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
It's a show.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
It's a show.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
Why you guys live together?
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, wow, I want to be mindful of your time.
But I wanted to ask just a couple quick questions
about the logistics of making the show, because I've never
really been in a writer's room. I think I told
you all my daughter Ellie writes for this show called
The Boys Onto Side. Yeah, I think I mentioned that
at South By Southwest and I kind of understand what
(47:14):
it's like. But you know, when you sit down and
you're kind of talking about what is going to transpire
in each episode, is that the three of you kind
of just riffing?
Speaker 4 (47:26):
Do you all?
Speaker 1 (47:27):
I mean? And are there a lot of other writers
in the room. Can you just kind of give us
a sense of how something goes from an idea to
an actual episode.
Speaker 8 (47:37):
Yeah, so at the beginning, it's like the three of
us really kind of hone in on what we you know,
there's a tremendous amount of material that we built up
while we were developing this show and when we pitched it.
I think We've said this many times, but we you know,
when we pitched the show, we pitched the very last
scene of the series. So we know very much have
a roadmap of where we want to go for each
(47:59):
sea and in for the characters, and so three of us,
you know, we talk before a season of like what
we big picture ideas and what the ten polls are,
and you know, we do like blue sky big picture
can kind of be anything. And then we'll have you know,
sometimes we'll have a few outlines even written or you know,
(48:19):
things like that before the writer's room starts, because you know,
the thing with the show, it's like such a we're
very lucky to keep making it. But it's like by
the time we finish post on one season, we're doing
press for that season coming out, and then by the
time you know it, like the press hasn't ended, but
we're starting writing the next season. And so it's kind
of just like this constant train that's always on the
(48:41):
tracks and moving.
Speaker 4 (48:42):
You know, we talked me out. It's a it's a
party train. It's a fun trains NonStop but NonStop.
Speaker 8 (48:53):
Yeah, And so you know, then the writer's room, well,
we have a wonderful group of writers who you know,
pretty much all of them have been with us since
season one, and they come in and we you know,
the breaking of an episode is you talk big picture,
you say, okay, here are the ten polls of the season.
We know, for example, in season three, we know we're
(49:13):
building to Deborah getting this show and then taking the
job away from Eva and then blackmail. But so then
when you start getting more granular, it's like, okay, the
premiere episode, Deborah and Ava, they've been a part. We
know we're going to do a time jump, they have
to come back together. Where are they coming back together?
Like just kind of big idea pit, like pitches on
what that can be. Then you hone in on stuff.
(49:34):
And once you hone in on stuff, I'm getting very
granular and specific, but maybe it's interesting you start writing
it down. You start writing it down on cards, which
is kind of breaking of an episode, which is each
index card is a scene, and just saying like, okay,
deborahn Neva meet in the elevator. They have an awkward
interaction where Deborah's kind of cold to her and Ava
(49:54):
is taken aback by it. And you just do that
for a full episode until you have all the scenes
broken and you feel good about the beats of the
story and the turns and the character development and the resolution.
And then once you know we've all decided that that works,
someone goes off and outlines it, and then someone goes
(50:15):
off and writes the episode, and so yeah. We usually
the three of us write a half or so of
the episodes, maybe a little less of the season, and
then our writers write the others.
Speaker 4 (50:26):
But it's such a TV writing. The thing I love
about it is it's like.
Speaker 8 (50:29):
Such a collaborative process that like sometimes when people would
be like, you know, I would when I was a
staff writer in Parks and Rack or good Place, They'd
be like, oh, you wrote that episode. I could tell
you wrote that episode, And I'm like, everyone write, you
know what I mean, Like it's it's it's which is
what's so wonderful about it and like so so fun
is that it's really collaborative.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
And Lucci do you all have you all directed episodes?
I know, Lucia, you have done a number of episodes, right,
I mean I should know this. I apologize, but tell
me about direct.
Speaker 7 (51:01):
I direct most of them. Paul has also done I
think you've done. Has it been to each season?
Speaker 5 (51:07):
Yes, so Paul is directed at least yeah, to each season.
Speaker 7 (51:10):
And we've had a couple guests come and do one
or two episodes of season. But but I usually do
what a six or so at a season something with
that of the eight or nine or ten.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
And Jen, don't you want don't you want to direct?
Speaker 4 (51:25):
You know, I get this question a lot.
Speaker 8 (51:28):
I've been really spoiled by my creative collaboration with two
phenomenal directors because I'm not I'm not lacking in feeling
the show is in very good hands. But if I
want the show to start going downhill, I definitely will Doret.
Speaker 7 (51:44):
We always say we want her to direct, but you
know we can't force her.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
You know, you say the show going downhill, and I
you know it must be sort of when I said
earlier on about you know, it's both exhilarating but a
lot of pressure. You know, these characters do have to
evolve and new things have to happen, and you all
have to come up with new storylines. And I think
season three was really I found it more dramatic in
(52:13):
some ways than comedic, although of course there's so many
comedic moments. But you really started to understand Debra's journey.
I hate the word journey. Don't hate the word journey,
like we need to strip that from the lexicon because
it just is so overused by breast cancer. Journey's journey anyway,
(52:34):
but you know, tell me about kind of what went
into that and where you go from here. Obviously you
go from she got the late night talk show, right,
and that I can't imagine doesn't provide just endless storylines
and fun things about staffing and all sorts of stuff. Right,
(52:55):
You can introduce all kinds of characters, but can you
just talk about sort of the evolution of her character
and where you see the show going in season four?
If you guys, are you starting to wait? When does
season four come.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
Out next spring?
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Next next spring? But so we're starting to shoot in September.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Yes, yeah, we're writing it now.
Speaker 6 (53:17):
We're about halfway through, well a little bit more than
halfway through writing season four. We always knew season three
was going to be her Deborah's quest to get this
late night job which was opening up. And you know
the idea of late night. Obviously, late night is such
like an institution in the comedy world, and it was
the thing that you like. I think that for stand
ups it was like the marquee job, the thing that
(53:37):
they all wanted to do, and if you were a
stand up, it was the show you wanted to be
on because it could make your career. And so we
always wanted to build to this season. But now that
we're in season three and you understand the characters more
and you get to see, you know, I think, a
different gear for each of them. So we got to
get underneath the characters. We get to meet Deborah's sister,
(53:59):
which was obviously a point of trauma for her since
her husband left her for her sister. We got to
get some more you know, heartfelt moments from Jimmy and
Kayla because now we've been with them and while they
are the comedic duo and oftentimes comedic relief, that we
got to see a little bit more of what makes
them tick. And so yeah, I think partially because the
stakes are so high for Deborah in this stage in
(54:22):
her career, it lent itself to being emotional and in
some in some cases more dramatic. But I think that
was the thing for us, is that we always wanted
to make a show that was both heartfelt and hard funny,
and we never saw that to the degree that I
hope we get to do because we have a show
(54:43):
about comedians who get to deliver jokes. Like Deborah's love
language is joking. She's addicted to telling jokes. She cannot
not make a joke about something even you know, DJ,
her daughter after feeling very maligned in that AA meeting
or that NA meeting, is like, don't make jokes, Like
she just can't stop making joke folks. So we get
to how our cake and eat it too, which is
(55:03):
make a show about comedy where we get to tell
hard jokes but then also show the real life moments
that are hard and sad and you know, real for
these characters too. And then season four, like you say,
it's like, we're off to the races. Because while getting
that job was a huge challenge for Deborah, launching a
(55:24):
late night show and having it be a success is
an even bigger challenge.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Are you going to be talking about you know, it's
interesting because I know, I'm sure you all do too,
people who work on late night shows. Nobody's really watching
them anymore on television. They're watching them online the next day.
You know, the ratings are I don't want to say infinitesimal,
but they're not nearly what you would think they would
be or you know, what they were in the day
(55:50):
before digital you know, before iPhones and online stuff. Are
you going to be dealing with that or is that
to complex? But I feel like, if you if you
want it really of the moment, you're going to have
to talk about this stuff, will you? And if not,
I just gave you a terrific idea.
Speaker 7 (56:10):
I mean, one of the things that we are going
to be kind of tackling is the idea of the
glass cliffs, which is that you know, women oftentimes in
business especially are kind of offered hired job or you know,
CEO jobs or positions of power you know, right before
(56:31):
kind of the downfall of the company, as sometimes as
a scapegoat, sometimes.
Speaker 5 (56:35):
As a like glass resort.
Speaker 7 (56:36):
Okay, finally, final, let's give it to a woman now
that we've kind of already sunk the ship or whatever
it is, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Familiar with that phenomenon.
Speaker 7 (56:44):
Yeah, so for us, that's definitely something that will be tackling,
and like you said, it is of the moment. And also,
you know, I think that's part of why Debra is
given the show, you know, is because so you know,
it's almost impossible to have a successful late show, but
if there's anybody crazy enough to make something as success,
(57:04):
it's sub Evans.
Speaker 5 (57:05):
So that's definitely part of what season four is a dow.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
And I'm so glad, you know, because really it's really ridiculous.
I just wrote an op ed in the New York
Times about how there will be no female anchors of
evening news broadcasts after Nora O'donnald steps down after the election.
And you know, that is a declining industry or declining
(57:29):
format for sure, But it's still attracts about, gosh, nineteen
million people a night now. Granted they're all out buying
fix it in and depends. But you know, if you
look at the commercials, you're like, whoa. But you know,
I think it's so important in it it really it
(57:51):
bothers me. That's still with the exception of Samantha Bee,
there really haven't been any successful and of course Joan
Verse for that moment in time, successful late night comedians.
And I think it's you know, it shows a real
bankruptcy of imagination for programmers and audiences.
Speaker 6 (58:15):
Honestly, absolutely, yeah, I think that's I mean, that's very
much part of the ethos of the show is about
how unfair that is and how, you know, in this
world we get to do it. But you know, we
were asked in an interview, do you think you'll see
a female president or a female late night host first,
and we said, President, it's a really weird thing that,
(58:38):
you know that they haven't been given the chance. And
I think that the same goes for broadcast journalism. It
is it is really wild because audiences are also largely,
if not equally, female, you know, I think women just
have a greater ability to empathize and watch someone in
(59:01):
a different gender role than their own. And I think
there is still like a weird ingrained thing even in storytelling,
even in shows, you know, like especially in comedies, there
are not a ton of female at comedies. Yes, of
course they've been fantastic ones, and we talked about many
of our favorites that were on Nick at Night, but
they really don't have the same degree I don't think
(59:22):
of respect and often instant notoriety that ones that are
led by men do.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Thank you all so much, as you know, we've already said,
we're such fans of yours, such fans of the show.
And I feel like, you know, as somebody who's the
mother of a writer, I feel like writers don't get
enough credit because without them, these shows just wouldn't be anything.
I mean, obviously the actors bring it to life, but
(59:50):
the writing is so good and the stories and the
characters are so I think beautifully drawn. That we were
just very excited to spend a little time with you.
So thank you all so much.
Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
This was so fun. Thank you, Thank you for having us.
It's a dream come true.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Yeah, you trying to anything else before we go.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
The one thing I was going to let you guys
know is we solicited questions from Katie's audience ahead of this,
and my favorite comments not question was I use SBF
fifty on my hands now because of Debra Vance.
Speaker 8 (01:00:23):
Love it that that's good one one liver spot at
a time, because, as she says, you can't get a
hand job.
Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Thanks everybody, Thank you so much, Thanks for listening everyone.
If you have a question for me, a subject you
want us to cover, or you want to share your
thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out.
(01:00:57):
You can leave a short message at six oh nine
five one two five five five, or you can send
me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear
from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and
Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric,
and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and
(01:01:18):
our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller
composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
(01:01:41):
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Host
Katie Couric
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