April 20, 2023 • 35 mins
If 87% of people are sick and tired of being divided we have more in common than we think. Daniel Lubetzky — philanthropist, social entrepreneur, and founder of the Kind company — is committed to understanding how we can come together to solve our most intractable problems. As a Mexican immigrant and son of a Holocaust survivor, Daniel believes fervently in our ability to overcome obstacles like hatred; he built his non-profit, Starts With Us, to help us find common ground. This episode also features Columbia psychology professor, Peter Coleman. His book “The Way Out: How to Overcome Toxic Polarization,” offers concrete tips on what each of us can do to achieve what so many of us want: solutions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question.
We hear it every day. Americans are politically and culturally divided.
But something we don't hear very often is that eighty
seven percent of us are sick and tired of it.
So if so many people feel this way, what can
(00:25):
we do about it?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
At the essence, the overwhelming majority of human beings are
wired to want to transcend what is happening to our
society today. We are not designed to be nasty jerks,
but ultimately comes to our daily habits.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Daniel Lebetsky is the founder of Kind Snacks. He's also
a social entrepreneur. He's always believed in using business as
a force for good, and his approach to the polarization
problem is a non part in civic movement called Starts
with Us. We'll also be talking to Peter Coleman. He's
a professor at Columbia and he's working with Daniel's organization
(01:10):
on conflict resolution along with two hundred and thirteen thought
leaders and cultural figures. Daniel and Peter are taking on
everything from extremist attitudes to divisive media to power hungry politicians,
all in the name of what so many of us
want a rational approach to solving our most intractable problems.
(01:37):
By the way, if you want to get smarter every
single morning with a breakdown of news and fascinating takes
on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for
our daily newsletter, Wakeup Call by going to Katiecuric dot com.
Heik getting on my ergonomic chair. Hi Daniel, or are
you good? How are you very well? I'm very excited
(01:59):
to talk to you because you are a very interesting person,
and to say your backstory is fascinating is an understatement.
I feel like getting to know you, we have to
first get to know your father, because he was such
an important influence on you, and his story I think
(02:22):
very much shaped the person you are today. Tell us
about your dad, Roman.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Absolutely, I do think that my story starts with my family,
and particularly with my dad, who was probably one of
the greatest influences in my life. And he was a
little kid when World War two started. Eventually he landed
in a concentration camp in Dajau and he was liberated
by American soldiers. And I can speak for hours about him,
(02:52):
but I'll say that what was remarkable about my dad Katie,
is that he was able to speak about the horrors
of what he went through without it making him embittered
about the world or about humanity. He was the kindest,
sweetest person you'd meet, and every person he met it
(03:15):
was like it was his mission to make their day better.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
He was always building bridges. He was always like.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
My mom also was a bridge builder. My dad was
always trying to connect with people, and he didn't shy
away from speaking about what happened with him. But he
found a way to remember those small moments of heroism
by kind people that saved his life as much as
the horrible moments that were probably the dominant part of
(03:44):
his experience. But he found a way to remember the
humanity that helped them survive.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
It's unbelievable when you think about how relatively recently the
Holocaust was, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well for me, Katie, What's most stunning is that not
only was it only like seventy some years ago, but
all throughout my upbringing, my first I don't know, forty
five fifty years of my life, I couldn't connect the
dots of how stuff like that can happen, How could
anything like that ever happen, and it's very depressing for
(04:22):
me that I now can understand it that only in
the last several years have I noticed how power works,
how humanity can be so manipulated and dehumanized, and how
polarization can lead to such divisions and the rise of
authoritarianism and dictatorial forces. And by no means saying that
(04:46):
anywhere in the world today is as bad as what
happened in World War Two. But you see, you can
connect dots to understand how we could land there. I mean,
ten years ago, none of us thought that this was
remotely an issue, and many of us now can appreciate
that we cannot take for granted the freedom and democracy
(05:07):
that made America what it is today, and the freedom
and democracy brought to the entire world, which now literally
across the world, you see these rise of neo fascist
extremism across the spectrum of politics. You have dictatorial figures
from the left as well as from the right, across
(05:29):
all five continents.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
We'll talk about that in the work you're doing on
polarization in just a bit, but I wanted to continue
with your family's story because your father, at seventeen immigrated
to Mexico. He only had a third grade education. He
didn't speak English or Spanish, and he went to Mexico
(05:54):
and became very successful. Why Mexico and to what do
you try attribute his success?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
He landed in Mexico because he had nowhere else to go.
And ant an uncle of his had landed in Mexico
before the war, again because they had nowhere else to go,
and Mexico, I guess let them in. And when he arrived,
like you said, he the way he educated himself was
by getting used encyclopedias and reading them cover to cover.
(06:26):
That's how he got his education. And he worked double
and triple shifts till he was able to start his
small business with his father and then eventually became a
very successful businessman. And we eventually came to the United
States when I turned fifteen and a half. But what's
interesting is when I arrived as fifteen and a half,
(06:49):
I had a roof over my head and had, you know,
all the opportunities that my dad never had. When he
was fifteen and a half, he was liberated by American soldiers.
When the American forces were advancing, the Nazis came up
with a final plan with their final solution to get
rid of the Jews. They didn't have enough bullets to
kill all the inmates, so they were going to walk
(07:10):
them up mountains ravines and throw them off a cliff.
And they were walking my father and my grandfather and
thousands of other inmates without you know, coats, and some
of them died along the way because they were already
you know, my dad was six foot tall and he
weighed less than seventy pounds, so they were all almost
(07:32):
subhuman by then. And they went and all of a sudden,
a snowstorm hit, so the German soldiers kept advancing, and
all the inmates thought, this is how we're gonna die
in the snowstorm in the middle of this mountains. The
Germans had continued marching ahead because they didn't want to
(07:52):
get caught by the Americans. So the inmates started heading
back and when they saw the tanks, they're like, oh, no,
he are the Nazis again. But it was and it
was the American soldiers in the form of Japanese Americans.
And when my dad first saw them, he didn't understand
what to make of it because he had never seen
(08:14):
a Japanese person. And it was Japanese Americans whose families
were you know, incarcerated or in turned while they were
fighting to liberate another continent. And so you can imagine
these Jewish inmates not understanding this, and the Japanese Americans
being the sweetest and kindest people, feeding them chocolates and
taking care of them. And can you imagine witnessing seeing
(08:40):
these people that look like they're not human beings, like
almost carcasses walking and seeing that suffering and that what
had become them.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
That's an amazing story. And just the degree of human
suffering and then the degree of compassion is just hard
to even comprehend. I think thank you for sharing that story.
At fifteen and a half, you and your parents immigrated
to the US. You moved to Texas. Was it hard
(09:14):
for you to find yourself in the United States? Probably
not as difficult as your father finding himself in Mexico.
But what was that transition like for you, Daniel?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
It was a lot of fun, honestly, I mean, it
was a great experience because for us, the United States
was not just the land of opportunity, but the land
of Disneyland and long, long, long long Cereal Isles. So
you know, you in Mexico, there were two cereals, and
here you show up and there's dozens of cereals and
you can choose a different cereal every day, and so
(09:52):
it was a lot of for us. It was very special.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
You ended up going to college? Where did you go
as an undergraduate?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
I went to Trinity University.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I was the first person for my family to go
to college, and it was an incredible experience. It's there
that I first fell in love with learning, and I
became very curious. Up until then, I was a smart kid,
but I was just freezing by. I didn't really read
or apply myself, and that's when I became an official nerd.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Well, you must have done pretty well because you got
into Stanford Law School and you originally wanted to be
a career diplomat, but you changed your mind at Stanford
or shortly thereafter.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Why so I went to Stanford Law because I thought
I was going to be a diplomat to try to
resolve the Arab Israeli conflict. I was very passionate since
I was a kid about building bridges, particularly to bring
peace to Israel and all of its neighbors. So I
had the idea for using business and commerce to encourage
(11:02):
neighbors to become friends and to work together.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
How did this notion of food and producing food as
a means to create peace? Where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I studied abroad for six months in Israel and met
Palestinian friends and Israeli friends, and I started becoming very
curious about the power of economics to advance conflict resolution.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Then in the research that I'm doing, the agricultural.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Sector is one of those few sectors whereas symmetrical relationships
between Arabs and Israelis are possible.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
And that's how peace Work started. It was Israel and
its neighbors.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Trying to show both sides how they could make money
together rather than fight.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
You got the idea for your company kind when you
were building peace Works and you barely had time to eat.
You thought, I need something to sustain me, So tell
us that story.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, so I've been running piece Works at that point
ten years. I couldn't find a snack that I could
feel good about eating. It was all either very indulgent
or it tasted like cardboard. And long story short, I
came up with idea for using nutrient andse ingredients like
almonds and tree nuts to create a versatile snack that
was kind to your body, kind to your taste, butts,
(12:24):
and kind to the world.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
And that's how Kind started.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But Kind it wasn't just the name of the company.
It was really emblematic of the values of the company. Yeah,
tell me sort of what your goals were in terms
of building your business.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So I was so blessed that I discovered the piece
Works model of bringing people together while making money. When
I had the idea for Kind, I wanted to also
find a way to not just make money.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
But to do something meaningful.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
The year that I and my team and I conceived
Kind is the year my dad passed away, and we
were looking for an adjective that would fit our three
pillars for the product that was kind to your body,
kind to taste books, and kind to the world.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
But the catalyst was that.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That was who my father was, right, the kind person
that always connected people. And so I think that's what
during that year of mourning my dad, it was a
way to honor him and a way to remember all
the magic that he brought to my life and other
people's lives by trying to name the brand in his.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Honor movie right back and we're back. When Kind started
taking off, were you like, holy shit, I can't believe it,
(13:58):
because I mean, were you just dumbfounded?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
My experience as a business person, Katie is that there's
an enormous amount of surprises, enormous amount of stuff that
you learn every single day, and entrepreneurs that or founders
that position themselves as saviors of humanity are full of
shit because there's an enormous amount of like being lucky
(14:23):
to be at the right time. It doesn't mean you
don't need to have an extraormedly hard work ethic. You
do otherwise you're not gonna win and be extremely a
critical thinker and develop curiosity and compassionate encourage in your
daily life and really really work harder than others and
be more creative and out, you know, be more disruptive.
But in addition to that, there needs to be a
(14:45):
enormous amount of luck and being there at the right time.
And once we launch Kind, You're right, it just took
off and it benefited from all the lessons of all
the mistakes that I had done in my first ten
years at Piece Works.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
It's a huge, I guess billion dollar business now, Daniel,
and you sold it right.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I didn't sell I saw the controlling stake in the company.
I still have a meaningful stake in the company, and
I'm still deeply involved and I love working with my team.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Let's talk about your philanthropy now, because I know you
have begun to focus your efforts on trying to diminish
the divisions we've seen grow and calcify in our country.
Why polarization, Why was this area of interest to you?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, first of all, Katie, the way my mind works
is that I just don't sleep well very very often.
And I think, as a son of aholl survivor, I
have this extra awareness that I cannot just take for
granted that I have such a great life, and I'm
so blessed to have immigrated to America. And I'm not
saying the United States is perfect, but it's probably the
(15:58):
best experiment of any other country out there.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
But we need to preserve it.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
And I live in constant worry that my children are
going to inherit a much tougher sort of circumstances than
when my generation inherited. I mean, I have five different
areas of focus in my philanthropy right now, but the
overarching concern that connects to all of those is this
(16:22):
growing trend of extremism and dehumanization and tribalism that informs the.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Global conflict across the world.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Is the rise of authoritarianism that informs anti Semitism, that
informs the conflict that's happening in Israel and the Middle East,
that informs what's happening here in the United States.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
And you know, social media makes all of us.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Think we have the answers because we are living in
echo chambers, makes us all be a little bit more
rigid and a little bit less introspective and a little
bit less willing to be curious about understanding the other side.
Same with cable news are just fitting us what we
want to hear rather than what we need to hear.
And same with politicians who increasingly are just wielding disproportionate
(17:11):
power when they take extreme mistakes. And we need to
change that because if we don't change that, we cannot
assume that our lives, our communities, and our country and
our world are going to be what we want for
our children. We need to recognize eighty seven percent KD
of the United States are very, very alarmed at the
(17:33):
direction of our country towards so much polarization, so much
the humanization, so much hatred, and feel that it has
to change. So the overwhelming majority of people feel that,
but we're not doing something about it because we all
feel powerless. We don't understand what to do, and so
Starts with Us is an initiative. I know Peter Coleman
is going to join us soon, and he's one of
(17:55):
our two hundred and thirteen senior movement partners that have
built this movement to try to give people a tool
kit of small things they can do in their daily
lives to seize back the agenda away from extremism and
towards a world that is closer to the America that
we inherited that they want where we're approaching.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Okay, let's bring in Peter Coleman, a professor at Columbia
University and also the author of The Way Out, How
to Overcome Toxic Polarization. Peter, thanks for joining us because
I know you're bringing your experience and knowledge to Starts
with Us in its effort to bridge the bitter divisions
(18:36):
we're seen in this country. And needless to say, I
think many people are very upset about the state of
the country and Peter, why did you want to get
involved in this effort?
Speaker 4 (18:50):
I have worked and studied in this area for a
long time. One of the things I study is long
term intractable conflicts. Conflicts are going on for decades, been
getting progressively worse, escalating, you know, for decades.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Now.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
I have a lab here called the Difficult Conversations Lab,
where we bring people in who are opposed on some
moral issue. We study the conditions under which those conversations
go well and go poorly. So I've been doing that
for a long time. And because of that, when Donald
Trump was elected, when political rhetoric was really heating up
in the US, so I wrote a book called The
Way Out, which was my attempt to say, okay, there
(19:27):
is science on this, this is what the science is,
you know, pay attention please. And then I started conversations
with Daniel's team and met Daniels soon thereafter. And they're
innovative group of radical product of tours I think, who
are trying to do disruptive things, and so I love that.
And what I've found is that they were listening to
(19:50):
the science when we would have a conversation and they say,
we think we want to do this, and I'd say, okay,
but understand these may be the consequences, and they'd say, okay,
that's good to know. So maybe we need to reshape it.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Right, But we have obviously become so tribal in all
our institutions. For example, you mentioned the media. They seem
to have a business model that's predicated on pulling us
apart instead of bringing us together. Well, I would say
it's more extreme on one side, but we can discuss that.
(20:23):
So how in the world are you going to change
it now?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I completely agree that we have our hands full here
in terms of the challenge, because it's been a challenge
that I've been following for decades and it's only gotten
worse now with the power of social media, and they're
incentivized to scandal.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
So it's a very serious challenge.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
A lot of what starts with us is starting by
injecting into our discourse the three c's curiosity, compassion, and courage,
and they concrete things you can do in your daily
life to live by those three days, which is not
just going to be about saving America from dictatorship, is
also going to make you a better parent, a more
(21:03):
effective business leader, a more effective leader. And the ultimate
thing I would answer is not only the power of
the people because we're the overwhelming majority, it's that if
we don't do it, nobody else will do it for us.
So it's imperative that we stand up and do it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
We'll be right back. We're back. But Daniel Lubetski and
Peter Coleman, Peter, where does science come into all of this?
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Everywhere? The good news about the crisis that we're in
is that it has created, you know, these kinds of crises,
these kinds of times, create their own conditions for their
own undoing. So the fact that something like eighty to
ninety percent of Americans are exhausted, fed up, and really
looking for a different way forward, that's good news, right.
(22:04):
That means there is a majority that is ripe for
something else. This instability that we think we're just coming
out of, COVID, awareness of racial injustice, economic downturns, the
Great Resignation, There's been so much tumult in our lives.
So the good news is we're exhausted, we're miserable, we
(22:25):
fail destabilized, And so what we need to provide this
middle majority is what the alternative looks like what do
you do. Where I find optimism is that over the
past couple of years, I've had the opportunity to work
with Starts with Us and other groups that are working
in all different sectors. That's happening in politics, it's happening
(22:47):
in business, it's happening in journalism, so in major sectors.
And then there are eight thousand community based organizations across
the country that are doing this at the community level.
So there's a social movement that's happening. We don't think
of it yet. We're not aware of ourselves as a
social movement yet. I think that's part of what Starts
with Us as trying to do is say, hey, you know,
(23:09):
we're there's many good people doing good things bringing us together,
which show us how to have respectful conversations. We're not
trained in this. Americans are trained in debate. So a
political difference comes up and we move into debate and
it escalates, especially because we oftentimes don't know what we're
talking about.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
And we also just want to win at all costs.
We don't want to listen. We want to prove our point.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
And that's what Yeah, that's basically the design of debate
is the game to win, right, and that's one way
to communicate. But we don't really understand how to listen effectively,
how to really listen to learn about ourselves and others
and the issues.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Right.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
So there's a lot of work to do to help
Americans see what that looks like.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
And also, you know, the political parties are not necessarily
our best friends, because they're a gen that is to
win over the other political party rather than to solve problems.
You were saying Katie earlier that in your opinion, one
side probably is more intolerant than the other. And I
suspect that you were thinking that the people that support
(24:15):
Trump are much more rigid and inflexible than the people
that are post Trump.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I think I was thinking Fox News versus say MSNBC,
although I do think they both represent two sides, But
I feel like Fox News is really the devil. I
have to say, Daniel, I think they're awful. I think
they're craven. I think they care about ratings and ratings alone,
(24:41):
and they'll say anything to get those ratings, even if
they don't believe it's true. And that's been shown in
the dominion lawsuits. So they discussed me.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Go on, let me tell you I have equal discuss
towards Fox News.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
But the problem does exist across the spectrum.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
We literally just came out with a study were in
parniship with the George Mason University's Center for Media and
Public Affairs identified the seven most bi parties and members
of Congress and the seven most hyper parties.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
And members of Congress.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Marjorie Taylor Green got more media attention than anybody else.
She got more media attention than all the bipartisans together.
You would think that the greatest culprits are the extremist media.
You know, who was the new source out of the
sixteen leading stations that gave her the most focused on attention,
The New York Times. If I speak to my friends
(25:43):
at the New York Times, they'll say, well, how can
we not govern our stuff? So what ends up happening
is we're just news media with very few exceptions. They're
throwing the red meat to their audiences and so right,
of course, and it's to your point, it's the incentives
for the system.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It's reinforcing preconceived biases.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
What we need to ask from members of the media
is not that they not cover the crazies because it's
impossible for them to not get ratings, but that they
just fine tune those ratios so then they work a
little bit to bring in the constructive people that are
actually addressing our problems and trying to advance solutions.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
And people who are working on solutions. The worry, I
think is that if it's not incendiary, if it doesn't
create a visceral emotional response, people are going to change
the channel or not buy the newspaper. This is how
we've all been condition.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Exactly what starts with us is trying to learn from
I mean, is those little micro habits that can help
overcome that. It starts with a little action every day. Peter,
maybe you can talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
So a small group of us started to say, okay,
so if we were to actually live these actions every
day for a little bit of time every day, what
would we do? What would that look like. We've basically
generated one hundred different microactions, microactivities, nudges, exercises that you
can do every day. There's an option that's five minutes
(27:15):
and then they can get more. And we piloted it
this summer with a small group of people, and I
participated myself and it was helpful. It really helped us
sort of start to have different kinds of conversations. The
first week you kind of focus on yourself and your
own inclinations and attitudes. The second week we ask you
to start to think about the people you are comfortable
(27:37):
talking politics with. Are you being honest? Are you able
to talk about your own ambivalence, and how do you
start to change that conversation. Maybe the third week is
about trying to find somebody that you're you know, politically
alienated from. Right now, there was a man in my
building who I was friendly.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
With for years, and I read that piece and Time magazine.
You took a walk with him, took a while, and yeah,
I mean, he could not have been more different than
you in almost every conceivable way. And I have to say,
I don't think i'd want to have dinner with your neighbor,
but go on.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
But I have to say again, you know what, it
reminded me of what the context of his attitudes were,
his opinions, his part of it was his religion, and
part of his upbringing his grandfather. So you know, again
being reminded of the humanity of this man helped me
hear him and frankly helped him kind of talk himself
away from more extreme opinions, you know. Right, So that's
(28:38):
one of the activities in this challenge that we offer.
So right now starts with us built this website that
you can go to and register for this thing every day.
You know, there are four or five things you can
choose from. It's like a mindfulness app Right, you can
do small things every day.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I'm just going to read them and you can give
us a quick instruction on each one. Number one, stop
to reset. What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Well, that means that oftentimes we launch into things automatically,
we say things, and we start, we get ourselves in
trouble and then we can't.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Walk it back.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
So it is about when you feel the possibility that
things could go awry, go into it with some intentionality
and reflection before you start.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Number two spot positive deviance.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Yeah, so that's I mean. The great news is that
there are, as I said earlier, thousands of people doing
this work. I Mean, one of the things I'd ask
you to think about is like, is there somebody in
your life who you grew up with or you know, well,
who is really good at dealing with hard conflicts, sitting
with them, being respectful but firm, right, and those are
(29:46):
the positive deviants in our life. Right. It's not how
to fix problems, it's how do we see people that
already manage those effectively, and how can we be more
like them?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Complicate to simplify.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Yeah, so again these it's very easy for us to
oversimplify them and us and the issues. Right. It's like immigration,
which is this immensely complex set of issues, becomes about
a wall, and that's you know, ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
So one of the things I do is, about two
years ago, I identified five people who are on the
other side of the political divide from me, who have
you know, opinions and ideas that are opposed me, but
who I think are decent, well intentioned, and often well informed.
And when the news breaks, instead of just going to
(30:34):
the you know, my comfort news, I force myself to
find them because oftentimes I may disagree, but they're they're
making a point and that's complicating my understanding of this world,
which is so hard to do because of the biases
in the news that you were.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Describing, Daniel, you were going to add something.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I just want to say that what Peter does is
so commendable, and I try my own version of that,
and I don't know if you do, Katie, but it
is so extraordinarily exhausting, and yet it's also externally accelerating. Ultimately,
the more high functioning societies, the more high functioning families,
(31:13):
the more high functioning companies.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Will be the ones that eschew that approach.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
I learn to be hardy debaters that respect to one another,
learn to know how to be critical thinkers and critical listeners.
Those are skills that have made as the best country
that we are, the best companies that get created. We're
going to lose that if we lose the ability to
have debates with one another in a respectful fashion.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I try to do that. I mean, I sometimes watch
Fox News. Usually I'm disgusted by how smug and smarmy
they are, but once in a while, I think, you know,
that gives me something to think about.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
I mean, listening to too much again. What I'm not
recommending when I say reach out to the other side
is the crazy nonsense. I think the Hannay and Tucker
stuff is just, you know, it is problem and it's
it is toxic. But there definitely are smart conservatives and
smart Trump conservatives that still are reasonable, still are in
(32:14):
there trying to make their case that I can listen
to without the craziness.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
But also we.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Need to evaluate our own side because the weakness in
the work I do is when I tell you eighty
seven percent of people are fed up with polarization and extremism,
everybody nods. Everybody feels it, but most people think the
problems on the other side. So I have a dear
friend that I think is one of the smartest people
I know from the right, and he nods when I
(32:42):
say this, but he thinks all the problem is in
the wokism on the left. And they have very differ
friends that are progressive and they not, but they think
the problems on the right. The truth is all of
us suffer from this, every single one is because we're
all being part of the you know, institutions and mechanisms
that are manipulating us for profit, for power, and so
(33:05):
we need to break those shackles and use the skill
sets to think critically.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yes, well, I think this is such an interesting conversation.
Daniel and Peter, thank you both so much for talking
with us. This is a fascinating and conversation and such
an important issue because democracies aren't guaranteed, are they? And
we want to preserve ours as long as we possibly can,
(33:32):
and we're not going to be able to do that
unless we come together and solve some of these intractable problems.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Oll Katie, I think from the bottom of my heart,
not only I'm a big, big fan of yours always,
but your style of work is exactly what we need
more of, where there's self reflection and where there's really
real efforts to tell the whole story. So I think
we need more of that, and I'm very, very grateful
for you. I encourage people to learn more at starts
(34:03):
with Us, which it starts with dot us.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Starts with dot us. Okay, and Peter, we'll make sure
that people buy your book as well.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Thank you, Katie, and I want to second everything.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Daniel sim thanks guys, appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Katie, Peter, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
I thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question
for me or want to share your thoughts about how
you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave
a short message at six oh nine five point two
five five oh five, or you can send me a
DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.
(34:41):
Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kirk Media.
The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz.
Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana
Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell,
who also composed the music. For more information about today's episode,
(35:03):
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question.
We hear it every day. Americans are politically and culturally divided.
But something we don't hear very often is that eighty
seven percent of us are sick and tired of it.
So if so many people feel this way, what can
(00:25):
we do about it?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
At the essence, the overwhelming majority of human beings are
wired to want to transcend what is happening to our
society today. We are not designed to be nasty jerks,
but ultimately comes to our daily habits.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Daniel Lebetsky is the founder of Kind Snacks. He's also
a social entrepreneur. He's always believed in using business as
a force for good, and his approach to the polarization
problem is a non part in civic movement called Starts
with Us. We'll also be talking to Peter Coleman. He's
a professor at Columbia and he's working with Daniel's organization
(01:10):
on conflict resolution along with two hundred and thirteen thought
leaders and cultural figures. Daniel and Peter are taking on
everything from extremist attitudes to divisive media to power hungry politicians,
all in the name of what so many of us
want a rational approach to solving our most intractable problems.
(01:37):
By the way, if you want to get smarter every
single morning with a breakdown of news and fascinating takes
on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for
our daily newsletter, Wakeup Call by going to Katiecuric dot com.
Heik getting on my ergonomic chair. Hi Daniel, or are
you good? How are you very well? I'm very excited
(01:59):
to talk to you because you are a very interesting person,
and to say your backstory is fascinating is an understatement.
I feel like getting to know you, we have to
first get to know your father, because he was such
an important influence on you, and his story I think
(02:22):
very much shaped the person you are today. Tell us
about your dad, Roman.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Absolutely, I do think that my story starts with my family,
and particularly with my dad, who was probably one of
the greatest influences in my life. And he was a
little kid when World War two started. Eventually he landed
in a concentration camp in Dajau and he was liberated
by American soldiers. And I can speak for hours about him,
(02:52):
but I'll say that what was remarkable about my dad Katie,
is that he was able to speak about the horrors
of what he went through without it making him embittered
about the world or about humanity. He was the kindest,
sweetest person you'd meet, and every person he met it
(03:15):
was like it was his mission to make their day better.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
He was always building bridges. He was always like.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
My mom also was a bridge builder. My dad was
always trying to connect with people, and he didn't shy
away from speaking about what happened with him. But he
found a way to remember those small moments of heroism
by kind people that saved his life as much as
the horrible moments that were probably the dominant part of
(03:44):
his experience. But he found a way to remember the
humanity that helped them survive.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
It's unbelievable when you think about how relatively recently the
Holocaust was, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well for me, Katie, What's most stunning is that not
only was it only like seventy some years ago, but
all throughout my upbringing, my first I don't know, forty
five fifty years of my life, I couldn't connect the
dots of how stuff like that can happen, How could
anything like that ever happen, and it's very depressing for
(04:22):
me that I now can understand it that only in
the last several years have I noticed how power works,
how humanity can be so manipulated and dehumanized, and how
polarization can lead to such divisions and the rise of
authoritarianism and dictatorial forces. And by no means saying that
(04:46):
anywhere in the world today is as bad as what
happened in World War Two. But you see, you can
connect dots to understand how we could land there. I mean,
ten years ago, none of us thought that this was
remotely an issue, and many of us now can appreciate
that we cannot take for granted the freedom and democracy
(05:07):
that made America what it is today, and the freedom
and democracy brought to the entire world, which now literally
across the world, you see these rise of neo fascist
extremism across the spectrum of politics. You have dictatorial figures
from the left as well as from the right, across
(05:29):
all five continents.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
We'll talk about that in the work you're doing on
polarization in just a bit, but I wanted to continue
with your family's story because your father, at seventeen immigrated
to Mexico. He only had a third grade education. He
didn't speak English or Spanish, and he went to Mexico
(05:54):
and became very successful. Why Mexico and to what do
you try attribute his success?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
He landed in Mexico because he had nowhere else to go.
And ant an uncle of his had landed in Mexico
before the war, again because they had nowhere else to go,
and Mexico, I guess let them in. And when he arrived,
like you said, he the way he educated himself was
by getting used encyclopedias and reading them cover to cover.
(06:26):
That's how he got his education. And he worked double
and triple shifts till he was able to start his
small business with his father and then eventually became a
very successful businessman. And we eventually came to the United
States when I turned fifteen and a half. But what's
interesting is when I arrived as fifteen and a half,
(06:49):
I had a roof over my head and had, you know,
all the opportunities that my dad never had. When he
was fifteen and a half, he was liberated by American soldiers.
When the American forces were advancing, the Nazis came up
with a final plan with their final solution to get
rid of the Jews. They didn't have enough bullets to
kill all the inmates, so they were going to walk
(07:10):
them up mountains ravines and throw them off a cliff.
And they were walking my father and my grandfather and
thousands of other inmates without you know, coats, and some
of them died along the way because they were already
you know, my dad was six foot tall and he
weighed less than seventy pounds, so they were all almost
(07:32):
subhuman by then. And they went and all of a sudden,
a snowstorm hit, so the German soldiers kept advancing, and
all the inmates thought, this is how we're gonna die
in the snowstorm in the middle of this mountains. The
Germans had continued marching ahead because they didn't want to
(07:52):
get caught by the Americans. So the inmates started heading
back and when they saw the tanks, they're like, oh, no,
he are the Nazis again. But it was and it
was the American soldiers in the form of Japanese Americans.
And when my dad first saw them, he didn't understand
what to make of it because he had never seen
(08:14):
a Japanese person. And it was Japanese Americans whose families
were you know, incarcerated or in turned while they were
fighting to liberate another continent. And so you can imagine
these Jewish inmates not understanding this, and the Japanese Americans
being the sweetest and kindest people, feeding them chocolates and
taking care of them. And can you imagine witnessing seeing
(08:40):
these people that look like they're not human beings, like
almost carcasses walking and seeing that suffering and that what
had become them.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
That's an amazing story. And just the degree of human
suffering and then the degree of compassion is just hard
to even comprehend. I think thank you for sharing that story.
At fifteen and a half, you and your parents immigrated
to the US. You moved to Texas. Was it hard
(09:14):
for you to find yourself in the United States? Probably
not as difficult as your father finding himself in Mexico.
But what was that transition like for you, Daniel?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
It was a lot of fun, honestly, I mean, it
was a great experience because for us, the United States
was not just the land of opportunity, but the land
of Disneyland and long, long, long long Cereal Isles. So
you know, you in Mexico, there were two cereals, and
here you show up and there's dozens of cereals and
you can choose a different cereal every day, and so
(09:52):
it was a lot of for us. It was very special.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
You ended up going to college? Where did you go
as an undergraduate?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
I went to Trinity University.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I was the first person for my family to go
to college, and it was an incredible experience. It's there
that I first fell in love with learning, and I
became very curious. Up until then, I was a smart kid,
but I was just freezing by. I didn't really read
or apply myself, and that's when I became an official nerd.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Well, you must have done pretty well because you got
into Stanford Law School and you originally wanted to be
a career diplomat, but you changed your mind at Stanford
or shortly thereafter.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Why so I went to Stanford Law because I thought
I was going to be a diplomat to try to
resolve the Arab Israeli conflict. I was very passionate since
I was a kid about building bridges, particularly to bring
peace to Israel and all of its neighbors. So I
had the idea for using business and commerce to encourage
(11:02):
neighbors to become friends and to work together.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
How did this notion of food and producing food as
a means to create peace? Where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I studied abroad for six months in Israel and met
Palestinian friends and Israeli friends, and I started becoming very
curious about the power of economics to advance conflict resolution.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Then in the research that I'm doing, the agricultural.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Sector is one of those few sectors whereas symmetrical relationships
between Arabs and Israelis are possible.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
And that's how peace Work started. It was Israel and
its neighbors.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Trying to show both sides how they could make money
together rather than fight.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
You got the idea for your company kind when you
were building peace Works and you barely had time to eat.
You thought, I need something to sustain me, So tell
us that story.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, so I've been running piece Works at that point
ten years. I couldn't find a snack that I could
feel good about eating. It was all either very indulgent
or it tasted like cardboard. And long story short, I
came up with idea for using nutrient andse ingredients like
almonds and tree nuts to create a versatile snack that
was kind to your body, kind to your taste, butts,
(12:24):
and kind to the world.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
And that's how Kind started.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But Kind it wasn't just the name of the company.
It was really emblematic of the values of the company. Yeah,
tell me sort of what your goals were in terms
of building your business.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So I was so blessed that I discovered the piece
Works model of bringing people together while making money. When
I had the idea for Kind, I wanted to also
find a way to not just make money.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
But to do something meaningful.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
The year that I and my team and I conceived
Kind is the year my dad passed away, and we
were looking for an adjective that would fit our three
pillars for the product that was kind to your body,
kind to taste books, and kind to the world.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
But the catalyst was that.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That was who my father was, right, the kind person
that always connected people. And so I think that's what
during that year of mourning my dad, it was a
way to honor him and a way to remember all
the magic that he brought to my life and other
people's lives by trying to name the brand in his.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Honor movie right back and we're back. When Kind started
taking off, were you like, holy shit, I can't believe it,
(13:58):
because I mean, were you just dumbfounded?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
My experience as a business person, Katie is that there's
an enormous amount of surprises, enormous amount of stuff that
you learn every single day, and entrepreneurs that or founders
that position themselves as saviors of humanity are full of
shit because there's an enormous amount of like being lucky
(14:23):
to be at the right time. It doesn't mean you
don't need to have an extraormedly hard work ethic. You
do otherwise you're not gonna win and be extremely a
critical thinker and develop curiosity and compassionate encourage in your
daily life and really really work harder than others and
be more creative and out, you know, be more disruptive.
But in addition to that, there needs to be a
(14:45):
enormous amount of luck and being there at the right time.
And once we launch Kind, You're right, it just took
off and it benefited from all the lessons of all
the mistakes that I had done in my first ten
years at Piece Works.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
It's a huge, I guess billion dollar business now, Daniel,
and you sold it right.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I didn't sell I saw the controlling stake in the company.
I still have a meaningful stake in the company, and
I'm still deeply involved and I love working with my team.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Let's talk about your philanthropy now, because I know you
have begun to focus your efforts on trying to diminish
the divisions we've seen grow and calcify in our country.
Why polarization, Why was this area of interest to you?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, first of all, Katie, the way my mind works
is that I just don't sleep well very very often.
And I think, as a son of aholl survivor, I
have this extra awareness that I cannot just take for
granted that I have such a great life, and I'm
so blessed to have immigrated to America. And I'm not
saying the United States is perfect, but it's probably the
(15:58):
best experiment of any other country out there.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
But we need to preserve it.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
And I live in constant worry that my children are
going to inherit a much tougher sort of circumstances than
when my generation inherited. I mean, I have five different
areas of focus in my philanthropy right now, but the
overarching concern that connects to all of those is this
(16:22):
growing trend of extremism and dehumanization and tribalism that informs the.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Global conflict across the world.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Is the rise of authoritarianism that informs anti Semitism, that
informs the conflict that's happening in Israel and the Middle East,
that informs what's happening here in the United States.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
And you know, social media makes all of us.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Think we have the answers because we are living in
echo chambers, makes us all be a little bit more
rigid and a little bit less introspective and a little
bit less willing to be curious about understanding the other side.
Same with cable news are just fitting us what we
want to hear rather than what we need to hear.
And same with politicians who increasingly are just wielding disproportionate
(17:11):
power when they take extreme mistakes. And we need to
change that because if we don't change that, we cannot
assume that our lives, our communities, and our country and
our world are going to be what we want for
our children. We need to recognize eighty seven percent KD
of the United States are very, very alarmed at the
(17:33):
direction of our country towards so much polarization, so much
the humanization, so much hatred, and feel that it has
to change. So the overwhelming majority of people feel that,
but we're not doing something about it because we all
feel powerless. We don't understand what to do, and so
Starts with Us is an initiative. I know Peter Coleman
is going to join us soon, and he's one of
(17:55):
our two hundred and thirteen senior movement partners that have
built this movement to try to give people a tool
kit of small things they can do in their daily
lives to seize back the agenda away from extremism and
towards a world that is closer to the America that
we inherited that they want where we're approaching.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Okay, let's bring in Peter Coleman, a professor at Columbia
University and also the author of The Way Out, How
to Overcome Toxic Polarization. Peter, thanks for joining us because
I know you're bringing your experience and knowledge to Starts
with Us in its effort to bridge the bitter divisions
(18:36):
we're seen in this country. And needless to say, I
think many people are very upset about the state of
the country and Peter, why did you want to get
involved in this effort?
Speaker 4 (18:50):
I have worked and studied in this area for a
long time. One of the things I study is long
term intractable conflicts. Conflicts are going on for decades, been
getting progressively worse, escalating, you know, for decades.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Now.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
I have a lab here called the Difficult Conversations Lab,
where we bring people in who are opposed on some
moral issue. We study the conditions under which those conversations
go well and go poorly. So I've been doing that
for a long time. And because of that, when Donald
Trump was elected, when political rhetoric was really heating up
in the US, so I wrote a book called The
Way Out, which was my attempt to say, okay, there
(19:27):
is science on this, this is what the science is,
you know, pay attention please. And then I started conversations
with Daniel's team and met Daniels soon thereafter. And they're
innovative group of radical product of tours I think, who
are trying to do disruptive things, and so I love that.
And what I've found is that they were listening to
(19:50):
the science when we would have a conversation and they say,
we think we want to do this, and I'd say, okay,
but understand these may be the consequences, and they'd say, okay,
that's good to know. So maybe we need to reshape it.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Right, But we have obviously become so tribal in all
our institutions. For example, you mentioned the media. They seem
to have a business model that's predicated on pulling us
apart instead of bringing us together. Well, I would say
it's more extreme on one side, but we can discuss that.
(20:23):
So how in the world are you going to change
it now?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I completely agree that we have our hands full here
in terms of the challenge, because it's been a challenge
that I've been following for decades and it's only gotten
worse now with the power of social media, and they're
incentivized to scandal.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
So it's a very serious challenge.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
A lot of what starts with us is starting by
injecting into our discourse the three c's curiosity, compassion, and courage,
and they concrete things you can do in your daily
life to live by those three days, which is not
just going to be about saving America from dictatorship, is
also going to make you a better parent, a more
(21:03):
effective business leader, a more effective leader. And the ultimate
thing I would answer is not only the power of
the people because we're the overwhelming majority, it's that if
we don't do it, nobody else will do it for us.
So it's imperative that we stand up and do it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
We'll be right back. We're back. But Daniel Lubetski and
Peter Coleman, Peter, where does science come into all of this?
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Everywhere? The good news about the crisis that we're in
is that it has created, you know, these kinds of crises,
these kinds of times, create their own conditions for their
own undoing. So the fact that something like eighty to
ninety percent of Americans are exhausted, fed up, and really
looking for a different way forward, that's good news, right.
(22:04):
That means there is a majority that is ripe for
something else. This instability that we think we're just coming
out of, COVID, awareness of racial injustice, economic downturns, the
Great Resignation, There's been so much tumult in our lives.
So the good news is we're exhausted, we're miserable, we
(22:25):
fail destabilized, And so what we need to provide this
middle majority is what the alternative looks like what do
you do. Where I find optimism is that over the
past couple of years, I've had the opportunity to work
with Starts with Us and other groups that are working
in all different sectors. That's happening in politics, it's happening
(22:47):
in business, it's happening in journalism, so in major sectors.
And then there are eight thousand community based organizations across
the country that are doing this at the community level.
So there's a social movement that's happening. We don't think
of it yet. We're not aware of ourselves as a
social movement yet. I think that's part of what Starts
with Us as trying to do is say, hey, you know,
(23:09):
we're there's many good people doing good things bringing us together,
which show us how to have respectful conversations. We're not
trained in this. Americans are trained in debate. So a
political difference comes up and we move into debate and
it escalates, especially because we oftentimes don't know what we're
talking about.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
And we also just want to win at all costs.
We don't want to listen. We want to prove our point.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
And that's what Yeah, that's basically the design of debate
is the game to win, right, and that's one way
to communicate. But we don't really understand how to listen effectively,
how to really listen to learn about ourselves and others
and the issues.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Right.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
So there's a lot of work to do to help
Americans see what that looks like.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
And also, you know, the political parties are not necessarily
our best friends, because they're a gen that is to
win over the other political party rather than to solve problems.
You were saying Katie earlier that in your opinion, one
side probably is more intolerant than the other. And I
suspect that you were thinking that the people that support
(24:15):
Trump are much more rigid and inflexible than the people
that are post Trump.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I think I was thinking Fox News versus say MSNBC,
although I do think they both represent two sides, But
I feel like Fox News is really the devil. I
have to say, Daniel, I think they're awful. I think
they're craven. I think they care about ratings and ratings alone,
(24:41):
and they'll say anything to get those ratings, even if
they don't believe it's true. And that's been shown in
the dominion lawsuits. So they discussed me.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Go on, let me tell you I have equal discuss
towards Fox News.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
But the problem does exist across the spectrum.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
We literally just came out with a study were in
parniship with the George Mason University's Center for Media and
Public Affairs identified the seven most bi parties and members
of Congress and the seven most hyper parties.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
And members of Congress.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Marjorie Taylor Green got more media attention than anybody else.
She got more media attention than all the bipartisans together.
You would think that the greatest culprits are the extremist media.
You know, who was the new source out of the
sixteen leading stations that gave her the most focused on attention,
The New York Times. If I speak to my friends
(25:43):
at the New York Times, they'll say, well, how can
we not govern our stuff? So what ends up happening
is we're just news media with very few exceptions. They're
throwing the red meat to their audiences and so right,
of course, and it's to your point, it's the incentives
for the system.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It's reinforcing preconceived biases.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
What we need to ask from members of the media
is not that they not cover the crazies because it's
impossible for them to not get ratings, but that they
just fine tune those ratios so then they work a
little bit to bring in the constructive people that are
actually addressing our problems and trying to advance solutions.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
And people who are working on solutions. The worry, I
think is that if it's not incendiary, if it doesn't
create a visceral emotional response, people are going to change
the channel or not buy the newspaper. This is how
we've all been condition.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Exactly what starts with us is trying to learn from
I mean, is those little micro habits that can help
overcome that. It starts with a little action every day. Peter,
maybe you can talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
So a small group of us started to say, okay,
so if we were to actually live these actions every
day for a little bit of time every day, what
would we do? What would that look like. We've basically
generated one hundred different microactions, microactivities, nudges, exercises that you
can do every day. There's an option that's five minutes
(27:15):
and then they can get more. And we piloted it
this summer with a small group of people, and I
participated myself and it was helpful. It really helped us
sort of start to have different kinds of conversations. The
first week you kind of focus on yourself and your
own inclinations and attitudes. The second week we ask you
to start to think about the people you are comfortable
(27:37):
talking politics with. Are you being honest? Are you able
to talk about your own ambivalence, and how do you
start to change that conversation. Maybe the third week is
about trying to find somebody that you're you know, politically
alienated from. Right now, there was a man in my
building who I was friendly.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
With for years, and I read that piece and Time magazine.
You took a walk with him, took a while, and yeah,
I mean, he could not have been more different than
you in almost every conceivable way. And I have to say,
I don't think i'd want to have dinner with your neighbor,
but go on.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
But I have to say again, you know what, it
reminded me of what the context of his attitudes were,
his opinions, his part of it was his religion, and
part of his upbringing his grandfather. So you know, again
being reminded of the humanity of this man helped me
hear him and frankly helped him kind of talk himself
away from more extreme opinions, you know. Right, So that's
(28:38):
one of the activities in this challenge that we offer.
So right now starts with us built this website that
you can go to and register for this thing every day.
You know, there are four or five things you can
choose from. It's like a mindfulness app Right, you can
do small things every day.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I'm just going to read them and you can give
us a quick instruction on each one. Number one, stop
to reset. What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Well, that means that oftentimes we launch into things automatically,
we say things, and we start, we get ourselves in
trouble and then we can't.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Walk it back.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
So it is about when you feel the possibility that
things could go awry, go into it with some intentionality
and reflection before you start.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Number two spot positive deviance.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Yeah, so that's I mean. The great news is that
there are, as I said earlier, thousands of people doing
this work. I Mean, one of the things I'd ask
you to think about is like, is there somebody in
your life who you grew up with or you know, well,
who is really good at dealing with hard conflicts, sitting
with them, being respectful but firm, right, and those are
(29:46):
the positive deviants in our life. Right. It's not how
to fix problems, it's how do we see people that
already manage those effectively, and how can we be more
like them?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Complicate to simplify.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Yeah, so again these it's very easy for us to
oversimplify them and us and the issues. Right. It's like immigration,
which is this immensely complex set of issues, becomes about
a wall, and that's you know, ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
So one of the things I do is, about two
years ago, I identified five people who are on the
other side of the political divide from me, who have
you know, opinions and ideas that are opposed me, but
who I think are decent, well intentioned, and often well informed.
And when the news breaks, instead of just going to
(30:34):
the you know, my comfort news, I force myself to
find them because oftentimes I may disagree, but they're they're
making a point and that's complicating my understanding of this world,
which is so hard to do because of the biases
in the news that you were.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Describing, Daniel, you were going to add something.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I just want to say that what Peter does is
so commendable, and I try my own version of that,
and I don't know if you do, Katie, but it
is so extraordinarily exhausting, and yet it's also externally accelerating. Ultimately,
the more high functioning societies, the more high functioning families,
(31:13):
the more high functioning companies.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Will be the ones that eschew that approach.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
I learn to be hardy debaters that respect to one another,
learn to know how to be critical thinkers and critical listeners.
Those are skills that have made as the best country
that we are, the best companies that get created. We're
going to lose that if we lose the ability to
have debates with one another in a respectful fashion.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I try to do that. I mean, I sometimes watch
Fox News. Usually I'm disgusted by how smug and smarmy
they are, but once in a while, I think, you know,
that gives me something to think about.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
I mean, listening to too much again. What I'm not
recommending when I say reach out to the other side
is the crazy nonsense. I think the Hannay and Tucker
stuff is just, you know, it is problem and it's
it is toxic. But there definitely are smart conservatives and
smart Trump conservatives that still are reasonable, still are in
(32:14):
there trying to make their case that I can listen
to without the craziness.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
But also we.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Need to evaluate our own side because the weakness in
the work I do is when I tell you eighty
seven percent of people are fed up with polarization and extremism,
everybody nods. Everybody feels it, but most people think the
problems on the other side. So I have a dear
friend that I think is one of the smartest people
I know from the right, and he nods when I
(32:42):
say this, but he thinks all the problem is in
the wokism on the left. And they have very differ
friends that are progressive and they not, but they think
the problems on the right. The truth is all of
us suffer from this, every single one is because we're
all being part of the you know, institutions and mechanisms
that are manipulating us for profit, for power, and so
(33:05):
we need to break those shackles and use the skill
sets to think critically.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yes, well, I think this is such an interesting conversation.
Daniel and Peter, thank you both so much for talking
with us. This is a fascinating and conversation and such
an important issue because democracies aren't guaranteed, are they? And
we want to preserve ours as long as we possibly can,
(33:32):
and we're not going to be able to do that
unless we come together and solve some of these intractable problems.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Oll Katie, I think from the bottom of my heart,
not only I'm a big, big fan of yours always,
but your style of work is exactly what we need
more of, where there's self reflection and where there's really
real efforts to tell the whole story. So I think
we need more of that, and I'm very, very grateful
for you. I encourage people to learn more at starts
(34:03):
with Us, which it starts with dot us.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Starts with dot us. Okay, and Peter, we'll make sure
that people buy your book as well.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Thank you, Katie, and I want to second everything.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Daniel sim thanks guys, appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Katie, Peter, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
I thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question
for me or want to share your thoughts about how
you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave
a short message at six oh nine five point two
five five oh five, or you can send me a
DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.
(34:41):
Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kirk Media.
The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz.
Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana
Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell,
who also composed the music. For more information about today's episode,
(35:03):
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
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Host
Katie Couric
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