May 25, 2023 • 36 mins
For author Judy Blume, writing is about making connections. Her genius has always involved finding a path into the intimate spaces of her readers’ hearts; it’s the very thing that drove her to write. Now, at 85, she’s reaching her third generation of readers — and she’s connecting as powerfully as she did in the late 1960s when her first book was published. A new documentary, Judy Blume Forever, explores this phenomenon, and the deep cultural reach of her books. On this episode of Next Question, Katie chats with the incredibly energetic Judy Blume, as well as the doc’s directors, Davina Pardo and Leah Wolchok, about the power of books as a force for transformation, identity, disruption, escape, and revolution. They discuss why Judy’s books have been embraced and feared, and why the connections she has made are just as strong as ever — even though there are people who would like to silence her altogether.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question
for anyone who has either had kids or been a
kid in the past fifty four years. You probably know
the name Judy Bloom, but she's the first to admit
she's not comfortable with her fame.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I don't know how to do it, and I'm not
used to it. I'm used to being a writer, locked up,
you know, at home or in my bookstore.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
But when it comes to talking about her readers, Judy
practically gushes.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Kids opened up to me in a way that I
think they felt they couldn't to their parents. Dear Judy,
I'm in fifth grade and developing. It is kind of embarrassing.
Without your books, I would be nowhere. I mean, it's
just so much easier to open yourself up to someone
that you're never going to see. You know, it's a stranger,
(00:59):
and yet it's not a stranger. You feel connected to
this person.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
That's Judy and a new documentary about her life and
her epic contribution to literature for kids and adults. The film,
by directors Leah Wolschok and Divina Pardo, allows us to
see what Judy does best connect with her readers.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I felt very much a kid, and I identified very
much with kids. That's why I you know, some of
us always are like that. I still I identify with kids.
When I meet a four year old in the store
and I look into that child's eyes, there's a connection.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Leah, Divina and Judy join me for a conversation about
book banning, the importance of reading, the fate of libraries,
and the role of parents, all of which Judy has
passionate opinions about. When I asked her why make a
documentary and why now, she gave me a typically Judy
Bloom answer. Heart felt funny and uncomfortably honest.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
And it was just like, you know what, somebody's going
to do this after I'm dead, I might as well
do it now and try to set the record straight
and be honest and open as I could be.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
It that was hard. You know, it's easier to be
honest and open with your writing than it is when
somebody's making a documentary.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
About you, especially about your whole life, which you must
have felt watching it was flashing before your eyes, and
you were very honest about your personal and professional life.
But first, I'm really embarrassed to say and admit this
and ashamed on some level, ladies, that I did not
(02:50):
grow up with your books, Judy, And when I think
about it, are you there? God is me? Margaret came
out in nineteen seventy when I was, wait for it,
thirteen years old, the year incidentally, I got my period.
So that is my confession. But I feel a little
bit better knowing that Leah didn't grow up with your
(03:12):
books either, Judy.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
I know, and I've been embarrassed. This is the first
time I've had to talk about this in front of
Judy because I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida, in the
eighties and a time when Judy's books were seen as
taboo and an appropriate and naughty, and there was a
(03:35):
lot of shame surrounding periods and puberty and sex. And
I was a shy, flat chested, eleven year old good
girl who didn't want to do the wrong thing, and God,
I wish I had. I had heard about this book
about a girl who wants to get her period, and
I thought, I'm not going to read that book. I
(03:57):
can't read that book. I shouldn't read that book, and
I didn't, and I'm so angry and my mom has
reminded me, I did not keep that book from you.
I did not restrict anything you read.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
It was sort of the.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Feeling in my school, in my community that it wasn't
okay to be learning about your body and that way.
I mean, we were passing around Flowers in the attic
in fifth grade. That was the book that we were
all passing around. Why was it okay for us to
be reading Flowers in the attic?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
But not?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Are you there?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
God?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
It's me Margaret, about a girl who is exploring her
friendships and her relationship to God, and her spirituality and
her parents, and of course about her body too. But
it's about so much more. I wish I wish I
had read it as a kid.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Having said that, was it helpful at all? Leah? Having
some emotional distance and being introduced to the material for
the first time as a filmmaker.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I think we needed that objectivity for sure, because everyone
else working on the film was a major fangirl. So
I felt like an embarrassed outlier at first, and then
I realized, Okay, it's helpful to have someone who doesn't
have that deep childhood nostalgic connection to Judy's books. But
who's discovering them as a mom and as a grown woman.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Judy, I don't mean to make you uncomfortable, but honestly,
it was so moving and so cool. What a tremendous
impact you've had on so many kids and parents, I think,
But I know the documentary really focuses on your ability, Judy,
to honor kids. And you even say when you started
(05:38):
to write, you only identified with kids, not adults. Why
do you think that was the case.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I don't know. I hadn't grown up. I mean, yes,
I was married, yes I had two children, But I
think I really hadn't grown up, and I felt very
much a kid, and I identified very much with kids.
I still I identify with kids.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I was going to ask you, Judy, what is good
parenting of a child in a bookstore? What kind of
things do you observe and think, Ah, that's right, that's
what you should be letting your child do.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Oh dear, Well, let's say the child is in middle grades,
you know, third, fourth, fifth, sixth grade. I like it
when the parent stands back and lets the child explore
by herself and find a book, or helps a child understand.
(06:41):
You know, this is what I do. This is what
I tell kids about finding books. So many kids come
in and they just want the familiar. Oh, I know
that that's Captain on your pants. I'll take that. And
there's nothing wrong with Captain underpants. I love Captain underpants,
a ton of Captain underpants.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
But I like saying and hearing you say Captain underpants.
Go on.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I like Captain underpants, and I like dog Man, and
I like those books, and I like selling those books,
and I'm glad that kids are excited about those books.
But I also would love kids to explore more books,
and I think loving a certain book will help them
do that. But when a parent says, no, you can't
(07:28):
have that book, you've read so many of the you
just keep reading those books. I want you to read
a real book, meaning not a what we call now
a graphic novel. And I wish parents would not be judgmental.
I guess that's what I'm saying. Don't be judgmental of
what your kids want to read.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Give them more freedom and be less helicoptery. I guess too, right.
You talk about being an anxious child and feeling like
adults were quote keeping secrets from you. Do you think
that feely influenced your impulse to be so radically honest
in your writing.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Probably, yes, you know, when I was writing let's be
honest here, I didn't know I was being radically anything.
I did want to write honest, truthful books for kids,
But I don't think I put myself into that, you know,
saying I'm going to be radically different. I never thought
about that. I only thought about will somebody published this book?
(08:30):
But yes, I hated secrets. I deeply hated family secrets.
And it wasn't just that I thought things were being
kept from me. I knew things were being kept from me.
And what I made up myself when I was a
kid about what they might be keeping from me was
(08:52):
far worse than what they were actually keeping from me.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And you were very young. Weren't you very young when
you got married?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, I was twenty one. That's what we did then.
You know, as my mother said, if you don't find
him while you're in college, where will you ever find him?
And I knew I must get married and have babies.
That's what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Getting married when I graduated from college was the last
thing that I wanted to do. I wanted a career.
I wanted to have mobility and flexibility, and I didn't want, honestly,
a ball and chain dragging me down. Is that terrible?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
That's great. It's great that you knew that. I really
didn't know that was a possibility. I just didn't know. I,
you know, was trained to be a teacher. I remember
interviewing for teaching jobs, and then I was pregnant, and
so you know, that had to be put off and
(09:53):
put off, and I was pregnant again, and so I
desperately needed I desperately needed creative.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Work, and you needed something to call your own. You're
very honest, Judy about the eventual strain and distance in
your first marriage. In some ways, do you think that
disconnect allowed you the emotional space to write. I feel
like I have Judy on the couch, Ladies.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It came from inside me. That need was inside me,
and I had to find a way to let it out.
And I was sick a lot in my twenties, physically
sick with all kinds of exotic illnesses, and once I
started to write, they magically disappeared.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
How fascinating it makes you wonder how much stress and
sort of repressed creativity was causing inner turmoil and resulting
in you being physically sick. You know, you started writing,
and man, I think about a lot of authors who
just get rejection after rejection after rejection. I mean, You've
(11:05):
got some blunt and pretty brutal letters from publishers, which
I think must have been very hard to take and demoralizing.
But then are you there? God, it's me, Margaret. It
just changed everything, didn't it. I mean, thank god you
wrote that not only for the world but for yourself
(11:28):
because it opened doors that had never been opened before.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, but the first thrill really was the first book,
and then the second book. You know, I'm being published.
I'm being published. And I like to say that it's
determination as much as talent. And I really believe that
if you're turned off by the first few rejections or
the first bad reviews, you know, maybe that you're not
(11:57):
going to make it just because you're listening to those
other people. So you have to just keep going. And
my it was only two years, which maybe maybe it
sounds like a lot, but it wasn't a lot. And
I feel that I was getting better during those two
years of rejections.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I'm curious Leah and Devina, did you think, Wow, the
opportunities for women back then were so few and so
many women did feel repressed.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
I had no idea what a trailblazer Judy was in
all parts of her life. I think when I started
this project, I knew the I knew that work was trailblazing,
but I didn't realize that throughout her life, in small
ways and in big ways, Judy was sort of pushing
back against what was expected of her, and that was
that was relatively new and I see. I mean, I've
(12:50):
heard Judy talk about the Market movie and how it
part of the reason why it's taken so long is
because the right people had to grow up and be
in positions of power and say, yes, we're do this movie.
We're going to do it in the right way, and
here's the right person to make it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
More with Judy, Leah and Divina after this short break.
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're
(13:32):
back with Judy, Leah and Divina Judy. It's amazing, isn't
it when you think back about how prudish we all
were and how uncomfortable we all were for so long,
and in many cases still are when it comes to
having sensitive conversations, or when it comes to talking about
our bodies, or talking about our sexuality, or talking about
(13:55):
something as basic as your period. Right, it's just so embarrassing.
Remember my mom talking to me about my period on
our way to I took piano every week at missus
Richmond's house, and my mom would drive me in our
station wagon and she said, and even then, it was
so uncomfortable. And then I think I got a book
in Girl Scouts that I still have in my sentimental
(14:17):
box that my daughters think is so funny, like on
becoming a Girl or from Girlhood to Womanhood, or something
like the cotechs had produced. Why do you think a
lot of people were, and in some cases still are
so uncomfortable talking about these things.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I don't know, because it's personal, it's private. This was
never my experience. I was never embarrassed about it, and
I loved talking about it. I didn't talk about it
with my parents, but I was lucky to have this
group of friends and just like Margaret's group, and we
talked about it endlessly for one year. I think we
(15:00):
were all obsessed, and then we let that go and
win our own ways. Even though we didn't all have
our period at the end of that year, and our
breasts hadn't yet developed by the end of that year,
but it didn't seem that important that we had to
talk about it. There were then boys to talk about
(15:21):
it and other things.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
It's so funny how different our experiences are. I was mortified.
It was so uncomfortable, and I really didn't want to
get my period.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
I mean, I was that kid who got there peard
really early and was so ashamed. You know, there's just
such a range of experience always. I think there've always
been girls who hated it, girls who dreaded it, girls
who wanted it more than anything. And I think the
beauty of Margaret is that even though most of the
characters really want it, there's still so much empathy for
all experiences.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I think Divina and Leah, one of the most moving
parts that adds a whole new dimension to judy story
is your decision to focus on the correspondence she kept
thank God, not only did she correspond with her readers,
but they were all kept and donated to Yale. When
you learned about this treasure trove of children in their
(16:18):
most vulnerable states reaching out to Judy, Honestly, I get
almost tear up thinking about them. You must have done
a happy dance, right.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
I knew that Judy had received letters over the years,
and the first time we met, I found out that
you had these long term relationships with some of the
letter writers. And pretty soon after that, I remember walking
away from that lunch thinking I have to go to
yl where Judy's archives are to see some of these letters,
which are very strictly protected. It's not so easy to
(16:52):
kind of walk in and get your hands on them.
But I was able to go visit and spend a
day looking through some of the letters.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
How many are there, by the way, Divina, Oh gosh, I.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Mean it's thousands upon thousands upon thousands, going back to
nineteen seventy one, when the paperback of Ourady there got
it to me Margaret came out. That's really when the
letters started. So boxes and boxes and the depth and
range of the letters, I mean, it's everything from sweet, cute,
funny to serious cries for help. It's such an outpouring
(17:23):
and it just says so much about what Judy's work
meant to kids. And then the fact that she wrote back,
so of course, I think says so much about her
as a person.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Did you write back to everyone, Judy? How did you
find the time?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
No? I couldn't write personal letters to everyone, but I
like to think that I wrote back in depth to
the kids who needed me most. You know, I called
them the special letters.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Who would qualify as a special letter writer?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Well, the two women that you meet in the movies
certainly did. They're growing up now with their own children,
but you know, I've never lost touch with them, so
that goes way way back. I think they were twelve
when Laurie was nine, I think, and Karen was twelve.
But there were so many There's a young man who
(18:19):
you don't get to meet because he's no longer living.
He was so troubled and so depressed, and we wrote
to each other for years, and George and I actually
on a book tour, were able to meet him and
have dinner with him. And he had a grandma who
was a psychiatrist. But eventually no one could save him,
(18:43):
he took his own life. That was terribly sad.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Leah. When you saw those letters and the relationship that
Judy forged, especially with the two people who were featured
in the documentary, that must have been InCred moving, inspiring
and meaningful not only for you to witness, but for
(19:08):
the arc of the documentary.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
It was so moving to discover those letters and to
discover the depth of the relationship that Judy had with
Laurie Kim and Karen Chilstrom, the two women that we
ended up meeting. When we got to hold some of
the letters that Laurie and Karen wrote to Judy, it
was we felt this release of emotion because the vulnerability
(19:33):
in their handwriting, in their words in the stationary even
and the way that you could tell there were still
creases in the letters, the way it was folded so
carefully and put in an envelope. It was I think
we felt some of the responsibility, one small part of
the responsibility that Judy must have felt responding to them,
because we had a responsibility as filmmakers to honor their
(19:57):
stories and allow them to tell their stories in a
way that they would feel good about. And for Karen
She hadn't told her story publicly ever, about what had
happened to her, the sexual abuse that she had experienced
as a kid and the trauma that she had experienced
as a kid, and so Judy was one of the
only people she had told and this experience of participating
(20:20):
in the film was really powerful for her.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I just have to say that, you know, I have
two favorite parts of the documentary, and that's one. And
I think that Leah and Divina did the most gentle kind,
generous interviews with them. I think they've just done a
beautiful job with that perfect I mean that. And what
(20:53):
they did showing censorship in the eighties. We didn't know
when they were making this film that you know, it
would come back to this that now in twenty twenty three,
we would have censorship issues that are even worse than
what we had in the eighties. And those two parts
(21:15):
of the film, because it's hard for me to just
look at my life, but those two parts of the
film really get to me and make me so grateful
to them and so glad that I said, Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
It does feel like deja vu all over again, as
Yogi Berra said, And I want to just briefly mention
what happened after Forever was published in nineteen seventy five,
after the election of Ronald Reagan. You say that quote
the censors came out of the woodwork overnight and burst
(21:50):
onto the stage. I know that Randy, your fourteen year
old daughter Judy, encouraged you to write the book that
would perhaps be your most controversial, called Forever. Just take
us back to what it was like when suddenly you
were the subject of censorship.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Well, yeah, that was very hard. I felt alone, I
felt dejected. I mean, I didn't know where to turn.
It was a very difficult time until I found the
National Coalition Against Censorship where they found me. I still
don't know how it happened, but I became active with them,
(22:32):
and I think that, you know, always this is true.
Doing something, doing it makes you feel so much better
than just being sad on your own. You know, so
many school libraries didn't have their policies in place, and
(22:52):
parents were running in and saying, get rid of this book,
get rid of that book. They were waving them around,
and people were right and they did it. And I
think a lot of us, including me, really thought we
have come through this and we will never go through
this again, because we are America and we do celebrate
(23:16):
our freedom to read and to choose and to learn
and to question, and no one is going to take
that away from us again. But guess what, you all.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Know this here we are back, only worse because now
it's the government.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Forever was banned again in places like Utah and Florida
and Leah. When you see what Judy went through in
the eighties, because I think she was ahead of her
time in many ways, but you see this kind of
happening again. Now, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 4 (23:54):
I'm infuriated. I mean, at first it was shock and disbelief,
and then that turned into rage and fury and now action.
I mean Saint John's County, Florida, right next to Duval County,
where I grew up and where my best friend still
lives and where my brother still lives. Forever was just
banned again. In the last couple months. Judy's books are
(24:16):
still being banned, but for the most part, the books
that are being banned now are books by authors who
are black, indigenous people of color, or authors who are
queer trans You know, they're writing these beautiful characters and
stories and characters who are black, indigenous, people of color,
(24:36):
characters who are queer or trans, And those are the books,
and those are the stories and the characters that are
being taken off the shelves in those communities, those exact
communities where kids need to find stories about themselves because
they might not have other kids in their classrooms who
are like them.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Why are some topics still so taboo? We'll talk about
it when we come back. We're back with Judy, Leah
and Divina. Obviously, I've been covering all this book banning
(25:17):
and the culture wars that really are erupting, I think
in Florida almost more than anywhere else because of Governor
Ron DeSantis. But just to ask you a question, I
so appreciate Leah having a diversity of authors totally, But
something struck me in the documentary Judy, when you talked
(25:39):
about age appropriate material, and I guess that raises the
question of talking about gender identity or sexual orientation. Is
there any problem with introducing these concepts to kids when
they are in kindergarten or first grade.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I don't know how this would be introduced to kids
in kindergarten our first grade. In my bookstore, I have
a lot of books that are wonderful. Justin Is a
Mermaid and Justin at the Wedding, and those are gorgeous
picture books. And there is no reason in the world,
(26:22):
I think, why they can't be read because it's not
like kids today we're going to study gender dysphoria. I mean,
it's just not like that. And there's another one called
Prince and Night, where the Prince and the Night wind
up together, and they're beautiful, wonderful books. Recently I read.
(26:45):
I took it home with me from the store to
read it. Themo's banned book in America at the moment
is called Gender Queer, and it is such a good book.
I couldn't believe, you know, I cry that nobody is
going to read this book to first or second graders,
or third or fourth graders. It is high school, middle schoolers, adults.
(27:09):
It's a wonderful graphic novel. And when I finished it,
I handed it to my husband, George, I said, read
this book. You know, it doesn't take very long. He
read the book. He felt the same way that I do.
And the idea of taking this book away from people
who could read it, you know, if you're not interested
(27:31):
in it fine, but if it speaks to you personally,
and it spoke to me personally.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
Actually, even though I'm not going through this because it
was so well done, but I think that kids, if
they pick up a book and they're not interested or
they feel uncomfortable, they put it down and adults don't
have to worry if.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
It speaks to them and they say, this is me,
this is me, how great to find yourself?
Speaker 1 (28:06):
No matter what it is, it's done wonders for sales,
by the way, by that book getting banned.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
The people who are buying that book are probably in
more progressive communities where a kid could find themselves within
their community and might have other resources. But the books
are taken off the shelves in communities where kids really
need the book, they really need to find the book,
where no one's buying the book. So I just wanted
to make that distinction needed. It was a distinction that
(28:34):
Alex Gino actually made at a panel that they did
with a few other authors from the film with the ACLU,
just that the spike in book sales happens in progressive
communities and not in the communities where the kids really
need the books. But book banning all comes down to fear.
Parents fearing what their kids might learn, might think about,
(28:58):
and might talk about. You know, there is so much
information for kids out there right now online. They can
find anything they want, anything destructive. I mean, things that
information that might not be accurate. They might be entirely interaccurate,
it might be destructive to their identities. But I think
she was describing this phenomenon of parents having a sense
(29:19):
of a loss of control of what's happening in their kids' lives.
But books feel tangible, They feel like something parents can
still control because the Internet is way too big to control,
and they know their kids are online all the time,
so they can easily brown paper bag a shelf in
their kids classroom or lobby their school libraries or their
community libraries to take the books off the shelves because
(29:41):
they're you know, bound paper that you can physically hold
and physically remove. But how can you take the Internet
away from your child?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
That's so so true, Leah. I mean, it is the
fear of loss of control. What can I control?
Speaker 5 (29:59):
The question about age appropriateness is I mean, it feels
so disingenuous to me, because you've got kids in your
class who might have gay parents, or who might themselves
be gay, or thinking about their gender, and whether you
talk about it or not, sexuality and gender identity are
part of the conversation. It's so important to just be
(30:19):
open and honest about who we are. And I think
there's this desire to erase certain groups of people in
our country right now that's really frightening. And so when
we say we can't talk about you know that this
is inappropriate. You're actually saying who you are, your existence
makes us uncomfortable, and we won't acknowledge your identity. When
I see people need judy and cry, you know, thirty
(30:44):
forty fifty years after reading the books, it.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Drives home for me.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
It's so profound to see how a book that you
read when you were young stace you carry it with
you your entire life, and that we are denying that,
we are denying kids that opportunity to find that book.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
It shapes their worlds, you too, right, And I think
these ideas and other rising other people begin very young
and are handed down from generation to generation. So the
way we change hearts and minds, I think is by
talking to kids openly and honestly when they're young enough
(31:19):
to receive it without cynicism and with openness.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Yeah, sort of all goes back to some of your
first questions to Judy about secrets, about her not liking
the secrets, the family secrets that were kept within her family,
and now that secrecy has evolved into this cultural secrecy,
Judy was feeling so frustrated about when she was a
kid and knowing there were things that adults were keeping
from kids. That's exactly what's happening now, but it's being
(31:47):
sanctioned by the government. And so that idea that we
should have learned our personal histories, our family histories, and
our cultural and national our country's history, the truth, the reality.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
We used to say nogious power, and they're saying knowledge
is dangerous. So you know what, Katie and my good
friends here, we have to keep speaking out, and we
have to I think joined forces for people who really
want to do something and don't know what to do.
(32:19):
Read about the organizations that are working to protect our
right to read and our rights to know and our
freedoms and join force us with them, Join with National
Coalition Against Censorship or Pan America or ATHLU. Groups that
Leah and Divina have been talking to because once you
(32:43):
do that, it will be just like when I found
out in the eighties. It feels good to know that
you're not alone and you're working with other people who
believe what you believe.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
We ask people on social media for questions for Judy.
We got a ton. Amy wanted to know who you
read growing up.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I loved mad Heart Lovelace, who wrote the Betsy Tacy series,
and it's not surprising to find out that many writers
of books for young people, woitmen especially also loved mart
Heart Lovelass.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Elaine asked, will you be writing any books for adults again,
I loved Summer Sisters.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, then, Elaine, I don't know if you read In
The Unlikely.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Event that came out in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yes, and I said at the time, this will be
my last novel, my last long book. It was five
long years sitting alone in a room writing it, and
I believe it's the book I was meant to write.
Just took me forty years to get to it. So no,
I'm not going to write anymore books. No, I'm very busy.
(34:02):
You know, I have a bookstore and I love that.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Who doesn't love Judy Bloom at least after preparing for
this interview, Judy Lean, Divina watching the documentary, reading about
Judy watching Are you there, God, it's me, Margaret. I
cannot tell you how many loyal, loving Steadfast fans you have.
(34:27):
You've changed so many lives, Judy and done such important
work for so many people.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Thank you so much, Katie. I never think of those things,
but I appreciate hearing it from you.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Thank you, le and Divina. Congratulations on the documentary. I
can't wait until the world sees it. Thank you all
for spending so much time with me, Leah, Divina and Judy.
It's been a real pleasure for me and such a treat.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
Thank you for having us fun to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Thank you. Thank you Katie so much.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for
me or want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
short message at six h nine five point two five
five five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram.
I would love to hear from you. Next Question is
a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive
(35:28):
producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney LTZ. Our supervising
producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adrianna Fazzio and
Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also
composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
(35:50):
us at Katiecouric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question
for anyone who has either had kids or been a
kid in the past fifty four years. You probably know
the name Judy Bloom, but she's the first to admit
she's not comfortable with her fame.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I don't know how to do it, and I'm not
used to it. I'm used to being a writer, locked up,
you know, at home or in my bookstore.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
But when it comes to talking about her readers, Judy
practically gushes.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Kids opened up to me in a way that I
think they felt they couldn't to their parents. Dear Judy,
I'm in fifth grade and developing. It is kind of embarrassing.
Without your books, I would be nowhere. I mean, it's
just so much easier to open yourself up to someone
that you're never going to see. You know, it's a stranger,
(00:59):
and yet it's not a stranger. You feel connected to
this person.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
That's Judy and a new documentary about her life and
her epic contribution to literature for kids and adults. The film,
by directors Leah Wolschok and Divina Pardo, allows us to
see what Judy does best connect with her readers.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I felt very much a kid, and I identified very
much with kids. That's why I you know, some of
us always are like that. I still I identify with kids.
When I meet a four year old in the store
and I look into that child's eyes, there's a connection.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Leah, Divina and Judy join me for a conversation about
book banning, the importance of reading, the fate of libraries,
and the role of parents, all of which Judy has
passionate opinions about. When I asked her why make a
documentary and why now, she gave me a typically Judy
Bloom answer. Heart felt funny and uncomfortably honest.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
And it was just like, you know what, somebody's going
to do this after I'm dead, I might as well
do it now and try to set the record straight
and be honest and open as I could be.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
It that was hard. You know, it's easier to be
honest and open with your writing than it is when
somebody's making a documentary.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
About you, especially about your whole life, which you must
have felt watching it was flashing before your eyes, and
you were very honest about your personal and professional life.
But first, I'm really embarrassed to say and admit this
and ashamed on some level, ladies, that I did not
(02:50):
grow up with your books, Judy, And when I think
about it, are you there? God is me? Margaret came
out in nineteen seventy when I was, wait for it,
thirteen years old, the year incidentally, I got my period.
So that is my confession. But I feel a little
bit better knowing that Leah didn't grow up with your
(03:12):
books either, Judy.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
I know, and I've been embarrassed. This is the first
time I've had to talk about this in front of
Judy because I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida, in the
eighties and a time when Judy's books were seen as
taboo and an appropriate and naughty, and there was a
(03:35):
lot of shame surrounding periods and puberty and sex. And
I was a shy, flat chested, eleven year old good
girl who didn't want to do the wrong thing, and God,
I wish I had. I had heard about this book
about a girl who wants to get her period, and
I thought, I'm not going to read that book. I
(03:57):
can't read that book. I shouldn't read that book, and
I didn't, and I'm so angry and my mom has
reminded me, I did not keep that book from you.
I did not restrict anything you read.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
It was sort of the.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Feeling in my school, in my community that it wasn't
okay to be learning about your body and that way.
I mean, we were passing around Flowers in the attic
in fifth grade. That was the book that we were
all passing around. Why was it okay for us to
be reading Flowers in the attic?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
But not?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Are you there?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
God?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
It's me Margaret, about a girl who is exploring her
friendships and her relationship to God, and her spirituality and
her parents, and of course about her body too. But
it's about so much more. I wish I wish I
had read it as a kid.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Having said that, was it helpful at all? Leah? Having
some emotional distance and being introduced to the material for
the first time as a filmmaker.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I think we needed that objectivity for sure, because everyone
else working on the film was a major fangirl. So
I felt like an embarrassed outlier at first, and then
I realized, Okay, it's helpful to have someone who doesn't
have that deep childhood nostalgic connection to Judy's books. But
who's discovering them as a mom and as a grown woman.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Judy, I don't mean to make you uncomfortable, but honestly,
it was so moving and so cool. What a tremendous
impact you've had on so many kids and parents, I think,
But I know the documentary really focuses on your ability, Judy,
to honor kids. And you even say when you started
(05:38):
to write, you only identified with kids, not adults. Why
do you think that was the case.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I don't know. I hadn't grown up. I mean, yes,
I was married, yes I had two children, But I
think I really hadn't grown up, and I felt very
much a kid, and I identified very much with kids.
I still I identify with kids.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I was going to ask you, Judy, what is good
parenting of a child in a bookstore? What kind of
things do you observe and think, Ah, that's right, that's
what you should be letting your child do.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Oh dear, Well, let's say the child is in middle grades,
you know, third, fourth, fifth, sixth grade. I like it
when the parent stands back and lets the child explore
by herself and find a book, or helps a child understand.
(06:41):
You know, this is what I do. This is what
I tell kids about finding books. So many kids come
in and they just want the familiar. Oh, I know
that that's Captain on your pants. I'll take that. And
there's nothing wrong with Captain underpants. I love Captain underpants,
a ton of Captain underpants.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
But I like saying and hearing you say Captain underpants.
Go on.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I like Captain underpants, and I like dog Man, and
I like those books, and I like selling those books,
and I'm glad that kids are excited about those books.
But I also would love kids to explore more books,
and I think loving a certain book will help them
do that. But when a parent says, no, you can't
(07:28):
have that book, you've read so many of the you
just keep reading those books. I want you to read
a real book, meaning not a what we call now
a graphic novel. And I wish parents would not be judgmental.
I guess that's what I'm saying. Don't be judgmental of
what your kids want to read.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Give them more freedom and be less helicoptery. I guess too, right.
You talk about being an anxious child and feeling like
adults were quote keeping secrets from you. Do you think
that feely influenced your impulse to be so radically honest
in your writing.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Probably, yes, you know, when I was writing let's be
honest here, I didn't know I was being radically anything.
I did want to write honest, truthful books for kids,
But I don't think I put myself into that, you know,
saying I'm going to be radically different. I never thought
about that. I only thought about will somebody published this book?
(08:30):
But yes, I hated secrets. I deeply hated family secrets.
And it wasn't just that I thought things were being
kept from me. I knew things were being kept from me.
And what I made up myself when I was a
kid about what they might be keeping from me was
(08:52):
far worse than what they were actually keeping from me.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And you were very young. Weren't you very young when
you got married?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, I was twenty one. That's what we did then.
You know, as my mother said, if you don't find
him while you're in college, where will you ever find him?
And I knew I must get married and have babies.
That's what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Getting married when I graduated from college was the last
thing that I wanted to do. I wanted a career.
I wanted to have mobility and flexibility, and I didn't want, honestly,
a ball and chain dragging me down. Is that terrible?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
That's great. It's great that you knew that. I really
didn't know that was a possibility. I just didn't know. I,
you know, was trained to be a teacher. I remember
interviewing for teaching jobs, and then I was pregnant, and
so you know, that had to be put off and
(09:53):
put off, and I was pregnant again, and so I
desperately needed I desperately needed creative.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Work, and you needed something to call your own. You're
very honest, Judy about the eventual strain and distance in
your first marriage. In some ways, do you think that
disconnect allowed you the emotional space to write. I feel
like I have Judy on the couch, Ladies.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It came from inside me. That need was inside me,
and I had to find a way to let it out.
And I was sick a lot in my twenties, physically
sick with all kinds of exotic illnesses, and once I
started to write, they magically disappeared.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
How fascinating it makes you wonder how much stress and
sort of repressed creativity was causing inner turmoil and resulting
in you being physically sick. You know, you started writing,
and man, I think about a lot of authors who
just get rejection after rejection after rejection. I mean, You've
(11:05):
got some blunt and pretty brutal letters from publishers, which
I think must have been very hard to take and demoralizing.
But then are you there? God, it's me, Margaret. It
just changed everything, didn't it. I mean, thank god you
wrote that not only for the world but for yourself
(11:28):
because it opened doors that had never been opened before.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, but the first thrill really was the first book,
and then the second book. You know, I'm being published.
I'm being published. And I like to say that it's
determination as much as talent. And I really believe that
if you're turned off by the first few rejections or
the first bad reviews, you know, maybe that you're not
(11:57):
going to make it just because you're listening to those
other people. So you have to just keep going. And
my it was only two years, which maybe maybe it
sounds like a lot, but it wasn't a lot. And
I feel that I was getting better during those two
years of rejections.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I'm curious Leah and Devina, did you think, Wow, the
opportunities for women back then were so few and so
many women did feel repressed.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
I had no idea what a trailblazer Judy was in
all parts of her life. I think when I started
this project, I knew the I knew that work was trailblazing,
but I didn't realize that throughout her life, in small
ways and in big ways, Judy was sort of pushing
back against what was expected of her, and that was
that was relatively new and I see. I mean, I've
(12:50):
heard Judy talk about the Market movie and how it
part of the reason why it's taken so long is
because the right people had to grow up and be
in positions of power and say, yes, we're do this movie.
We're going to do it in the right way, and
here's the right person to make it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
More with Judy, Leah and Divina after this short break.
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're
(13:32):
back with Judy, Leah and Divina Judy. It's amazing, isn't
it when you think back about how prudish we all
were and how uncomfortable we all were for so long,
and in many cases still are when it comes to
having sensitive conversations, or when it comes to talking about
our bodies, or talking about our sexuality, or talking about
(13:55):
something as basic as your period. Right, it's just so embarrassing.
Remember my mom talking to me about my period on
our way to I took piano every week at missus
Richmond's house, and my mom would drive me in our
station wagon and she said, and even then, it was
so uncomfortable. And then I think I got a book
in Girl Scouts that I still have in my sentimental
(14:17):
box that my daughters think is so funny, like on
becoming a Girl or from Girlhood to Womanhood, or something
like the cotechs had produced. Why do you think a
lot of people were, and in some cases still are
so uncomfortable talking about these things.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I don't know, because it's personal, it's private. This was
never my experience. I was never embarrassed about it, and
I loved talking about it. I didn't talk about it
with my parents, but I was lucky to have this
group of friends and just like Margaret's group, and we
talked about it endlessly for one year. I think we
(15:00):
were all obsessed, and then we let that go and
win our own ways. Even though we didn't all have
our period at the end of that year, and our
breasts hadn't yet developed by the end of that year,
but it didn't seem that important that we had to
talk about it. There were then boys to talk about
(15:21):
it and other things.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
It's so funny how different our experiences are. I was mortified.
It was so uncomfortable, and I really didn't want to
get my period.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
I mean, I was that kid who got there peard
really early and was so ashamed. You know, there's just
such a range of experience always. I think there've always
been girls who hated it, girls who dreaded it, girls
who wanted it more than anything. And I think the
beauty of Margaret is that even though most of the
characters really want it, there's still so much empathy for
all experiences.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I think Divina and Leah, one of the most moving
parts that adds a whole new dimension to judy story
is your decision to focus on the correspondence she kept
thank God, not only did she correspond with her readers,
but they were all kept and donated to Yale. When
you learned about this treasure trove of children in their
(16:18):
most vulnerable states reaching out to Judy, Honestly, I get
almost tear up thinking about them. You must have done
a happy dance, right.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
I knew that Judy had received letters over the years,
and the first time we met, I found out that
you had these long term relationships with some of the
letter writers. And pretty soon after that, I remember walking
away from that lunch thinking I have to go to
yl where Judy's archives are to see some of these letters,
which are very strictly protected. It's not so easy to
(16:52):
kind of walk in and get your hands on them.
But I was able to go visit and spend a
day looking through some of the letters.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
How many are there, by the way, Divina, Oh gosh, I.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Mean it's thousands upon thousands upon thousands, going back to
nineteen seventy one, when the paperback of Ourady there got
it to me Margaret came out. That's really when the
letters started. So boxes and boxes and the depth and
range of the letters, I mean, it's everything from sweet, cute,
funny to serious cries for help. It's such an outpouring
(17:23):
and it just says so much about what Judy's work
meant to kids. And then the fact that she wrote back,
so of course, I think says so much about her
as a person.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Did you write back to everyone, Judy? How did you
find the time?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
No? I couldn't write personal letters to everyone, but I
like to think that I wrote back in depth to
the kids who needed me most. You know, I called
them the special letters.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Who would qualify as a special letter writer?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Well, the two women that you meet in the movies
certainly did. They're growing up now with their own children,
but you know, I've never lost touch with them, so
that goes way way back. I think they were twelve
when Laurie was nine, I think, and Karen was twelve.
But there were so many There's a young man who
(18:19):
you don't get to meet because he's no longer living.
He was so troubled and so depressed, and we wrote
to each other for years, and George and I actually
on a book tour, were able to meet him and
have dinner with him. And he had a grandma who
was a psychiatrist. But eventually no one could save him,
(18:43):
he took his own life. That was terribly sad.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Leah. When you saw those letters and the relationship that
Judy forged, especially with the two people who were featured
in the documentary, that must have been InCred moving, inspiring
and meaningful not only for you to witness, but for
(19:08):
the arc of the documentary.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
It was so moving to discover those letters and to
discover the depth of the relationship that Judy had with
Laurie Kim and Karen Chilstrom, the two women that we
ended up meeting. When we got to hold some of
the letters that Laurie and Karen wrote to Judy, it
was we felt this release of emotion because the vulnerability
(19:33):
in their handwriting, in their words in the stationary even
and the way that you could tell there were still
creases in the letters, the way it was folded so
carefully and put in an envelope. It was I think
we felt some of the responsibility, one small part of
the responsibility that Judy must have felt responding to them,
because we had a responsibility as filmmakers to honor their
(19:57):
stories and allow them to tell their stories in a
way that they would feel good about. And for Karen
She hadn't told her story publicly ever, about what had
happened to her, the sexual abuse that she had experienced
as a kid and the trauma that she had experienced
as a kid, and so Judy was one of the
only people she had told and this experience of participating
(20:20):
in the film was really powerful for her.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I just have to say that, you know, I have
two favorite parts of the documentary, and that's one. And
I think that Leah and Divina did the most gentle kind,
generous interviews with them. I think they've just done a
beautiful job with that perfect I mean that. And what
(20:53):
they did showing censorship in the eighties. We didn't know
when they were making this film that you know, it
would come back to this that now in twenty twenty three,
we would have censorship issues that are even worse than
what we had in the eighties. And those two parts
(21:15):
of the film, because it's hard for me to just
look at my life, but those two parts of the
film really get to me and make me so grateful
to them and so glad that I said, Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
It does feel like deja vu all over again, as
Yogi Berra said, And I want to just briefly mention
what happened after Forever was published in nineteen seventy five,
after the election of Ronald Reagan. You say that quote
the censors came out of the woodwork overnight and burst
(21:50):
onto the stage. I know that Randy, your fourteen year
old daughter Judy, encouraged you to write the book that
would perhaps be your most controversial, called Forever. Just take
us back to what it was like when suddenly you
were the subject of censorship.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Well, yeah, that was very hard. I felt alone, I
felt dejected. I mean, I didn't know where to turn.
It was a very difficult time until I found the
National Coalition Against Censorship where they found me. I still
don't know how it happened, but I became active with them,
(22:32):
and I think that, you know, always this is true.
Doing something, doing it makes you feel so much better
than just being sad on your own. You know, so
many school libraries didn't have their policies in place, and
(22:52):
parents were running in and saying, get rid of this book,
get rid of that book. They were waving them around,
and people were right and they did it. And I
think a lot of us, including me, really thought we
have come through this and we will never go through
this again, because we are America and we do celebrate
(23:16):
our freedom to read and to choose and to learn
and to question, and no one is going to take
that away from us again. But guess what, you all.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Know this here we are back, only worse because now
it's the government.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Forever was banned again in places like Utah and Florida
and Leah. When you see what Judy went through in
the eighties, because I think she was ahead of her
time in many ways, but you see this kind of
happening again. Now, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 4 (23:54):
I'm infuriated. I mean, at first it was shock and disbelief,
and then that turned into rage and fury and now action.
I mean Saint John's County, Florida, right next to Duval County,
where I grew up and where my best friend still
lives and where my brother still lives. Forever was just
banned again. In the last couple months. Judy's books are
(24:16):
still being banned, but for the most part, the books
that are being banned now are books by authors who
are black, indigenous people of color, or authors who are
queer trans You know, they're writing these beautiful characters and
stories and characters who are black, indigenous, people of color,
(24:36):
characters who are queer or trans, And those are the books,
and those are the stories and the characters that are
being taken off the shelves in those communities, those exact
communities where kids need to find stories about themselves because
they might not have other kids in their classrooms who
are like them.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Why are some topics still so taboo? We'll talk about
it when we come back. We're back with Judy, Leah
and Divina. Obviously, I've been covering all this book banning
(25:17):
and the culture wars that really are erupting, I think
in Florida almost more than anywhere else because of Governor
Ron DeSantis. But just to ask you a question, I
so appreciate Leah having a diversity of authors totally, But
something struck me in the documentary Judy, when you talked
(25:39):
about age appropriate material, and I guess that raises the
question of talking about gender identity or sexual orientation. Is
there any problem with introducing these concepts to kids when
they are in kindergarten or first grade.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I don't know how this would be introduced to kids
in kindergarten our first grade. In my bookstore, I have
a lot of books that are wonderful. Justin Is a
Mermaid and Justin at the Wedding, and those are gorgeous
picture books. And there is no reason in the world,
(26:22):
I think, why they can't be read because it's not
like kids today we're going to study gender dysphoria. I mean,
it's just not like that. And there's another one called
Prince and Night, where the Prince and the Night wind
up together, and they're beautiful, wonderful books. Recently I read.
(26:45):
I took it home with me from the store to
read it. Themo's banned book in America at the moment
is called Gender Queer, and it is such a good book.
I couldn't believe, you know, I cry that nobody is
going to read this book to first or second graders,
or third or fourth graders. It is high school, middle schoolers, adults.
(27:09):
It's a wonderful graphic novel. And when I finished it,
I handed it to my husband, George, I said, read
this book. You know, it doesn't take very long. He
read the book. He felt the same way that I do.
And the idea of taking this book away from people
who could read it, you know, if you're not interested
(27:31):
in it fine, but if it speaks to you personally,
and it spoke to me personally.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
Actually, even though I'm not going through this because it
was so well done, but I think that kids, if
they pick up a book and they're not interested or
they feel uncomfortable, they put it down and adults don't
have to worry if.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
It speaks to them and they say, this is me,
this is me, how great to find yourself?
Speaker 1 (28:06):
No matter what it is, it's done wonders for sales,
by the way, by that book getting banned.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
The people who are buying that book are probably in
more progressive communities where a kid could find themselves within
their community and might have other resources. But the books
are taken off the shelves in communities where kids really
need the book, they really need to find the book,
where no one's buying the book. So I just wanted
to make that distinction needed. It was a distinction that
(28:34):
Alex Gino actually made at a panel that they did
with a few other authors from the film with the ACLU,
just that the spike in book sales happens in progressive
communities and not in the communities where the kids really
need the books. But book banning all comes down to fear.
Parents fearing what their kids might learn, might think about,
(28:58):
and might talk about. You know, there is so much
information for kids out there right now online. They can
find anything they want, anything destructive. I mean, things that
information that might not be accurate. They might be entirely interaccurate,
it might be destructive to their identities. But I think
she was describing this phenomenon of parents having a sense
(29:19):
of a loss of control of what's happening in their kids' lives.
But books feel tangible, They feel like something parents can
still control because the Internet is way too big to control,
and they know their kids are online all the time,
so they can easily brown paper bag a shelf in
their kids classroom or lobby their school libraries or their
community libraries to take the books off the shelves because
(29:41):
they're you know, bound paper that you can physically hold
and physically remove. But how can you take the Internet
away from your child?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
That's so so true, Leah. I mean, it is the
fear of loss of control. What can I control?
Speaker 5 (29:59):
The question about age appropriateness is I mean, it feels
so disingenuous to me, because you've got kids in your
class who might have gay parents, or who might themselves
be gay, or thinking about their gender, and whether you
talk about it or not, sexuality and gender identity are
part of the conversation. It's so important to just be
(30:19):
open and honest about who we are. And I think
there's this desire to erase certain groups of people in
our country right now that's really frightening. And so when
we say we can't talk about you know that this
is inappropriate. You're actually saying who you are, your existence
makes us uncomfortable, and we won't acknowledge your identity. When
I see people need judy and cry, you know, thirty
(30:44):
forty fifty years after reading the books, it.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Drives home for me.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
It's so profound to see how a book that you
read when you were young stace you carry it with
you your entire life, and that we are denying that,
we are denying kids that opportunity to find that book.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
It shapes their worlds, you too, right, And I think
these ideas and other rising other people begin very young
and are handed down from generation to generation. So the
way we change hearts and minds, I think is by
talking to kids openly and honestly when they're young enough
(31:19):
to receive it without cynicism and with openness.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Yeah, sort of all goes back to some of your
first questions to Judy about secrets, about her not liking
the secrets, the family secrets that were kept within her family,
and now that secrecy has evolved into this cultural secrecy,
Judy was feeling so frustrated about when she was a
kid and knowing there were things that adults were keeping
from kids. That's exactly what's happening now, but it's being
(31:47):
sanctioned by the government. And so that idea that we
should have learned our personal histories, our family histories, and
our cultural and national our country's history, the truth, the reality.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
We used to say nogious power, and they're saying knowledge
is dangerous. So you know what, Katie and my good
friends here, we have to keep speaking out, and we
have to I think joined forces for people who really
want to do something and don't know what to do.
(32:19):
Read about the organizations that are working to protect our
right to read and our rights to know and our
freedoms and join force us with them, Join with National
Coalition Against Censorship or Pan America or ATHLU. Groups that
Leah and Divina have been talking to because once you
(32:43):
do that, it will be just like when I found
out in the eighties. It feels good to know that
you're not alone and you're working with other people who
believe what you believe.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
We ask people on social media for questions for Judy.
We got a ton. Amy wanted to know who you
read growing up.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I loved mad Heart Lovelace, who wrote the Betsy Tacy series,
and it's not surprising to find out that many writers
of books for young people, woitmen especially also loved mart
Heart Lovelass.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Elaine asked, will you be writing any books for adults again,
I loved Summer Sisters.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, then, Elaine, I don't know if you read In
The Unlikely.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Event that came out in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yes, and I said at the time, this will be
my last novel, my last long book. It was five
long years sitting alone in a room writing it, and
I believe it's the book I was meant to write.
Just took me forty years to get to it. So no,
I'm not going to write anymore books. No, I'm very busy.
(34:02):
You know, I have a bookstore and I love that.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Who doesn't love Judy Bloom at least after preparing for
this interview, Judy Lean, Divina watching the documentary, reading about
Judy watching Are you there, God, it's me, Margaret. I
cannot tell you how many loyal, loving Steadfast fans you have.
(34:27):
You've changed so many lives, Judy and done such important
work for so many people.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Thank you so much, Katie. I never think of those things,
but I appreciate hearing it from you.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Thank you, le and Divina. Congratulations on the documentary. I
can't wait until the world sees it. Thank you all
for spending so much time with me, Leah, Divina and Judy.
It's been a real pleasure for me and such a treat.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
Thank you for having us fun to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Thank you. Thank you Katie so much.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for
me or want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
short message at six h nine five point two five
five five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram.
I would love to hear from you. Next Question is
a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive
(35:28):
producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney LTZ. Our supervising
producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adrianna Fazzio and
Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also
composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
(35:50):
us at Katiecouric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Host
Katie Couric
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