December 14, 2023 • 26 mins
The new film May December stars Julianne Moore, Natalie Portman, and Charles Melton, was directed by Todd Haynes, and written for the screen by Samy Burch’s–her first screenplay! Julianne Moore’s Gracie began her relationship with the much-younger Joe (Charles Melton) when he was a young teen, and paid the price for this hard-to-understand liaison. Elizabeth, played by Portman, is an actress who arrives at their home to do research for her role portraying Gracie in an upcoming biopic. Critics are calling it a “booby trap” of a movie, because it’s so hard to decide just who to root for.
In this wide-ranging interview, Katie Couric sits down with the cast to delve into how the actors approached these complicated characters, where Haynes drew inspiration from as he directed (there’s a very interesting story to the music in this film), and what excited them about the fresh take Burch brought to her screenplay. This isn’t a movie that invites easy answers, but it’s clear the team had great fun bringing us this story, and we hope you enjoy the peek behind the curtain!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.
Talk about a superstar lineup. Natalie Portman, Julianne Moore, Charles Melton,
Todd Haynes. They're the talent behind May December, the gripping
psychological thriller directed by Haines and written by first time
(00:26):
screenwriter Sammy Birch. It's getting a lot of attention and
it's been nominated for three Golden Globes. The movie is
partially based on the shocking story of Mary Kay Latourno.
If you're not old enough to remember, she was the
school teacher from a suburb of Seattle who went to
prison in the nineties after beginning a relationship with one
(00:47):
of her students. At the time, she was thirty four
and he was twelve. May December imagines a similar couple,
Gracie and Joe, played by Julianne Moore and Charles Melton,
and years after their relationship began, what would their life
be like now, how did their story unfold, and what
(01:08):
would happen if an actress Natalie Portman showed up to
research her role portraying Gracie in an upcoming movie. That's
how May December begins. It's a strange, twisty tale of love,
lust and a not exactly age appropriate relationship given the
Todd Haynes treatment. I interviewed the group following a screening
(01:31):
and it was a fascinating conversation. I hope you enjoyed listening.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
To it, Natalie.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I know that your production company originally found the script
for this film and brought it to Todd. Why did
you believe he would be the right person to tell
this story?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I kind of think Todd could tell any story beautifully.
And such an admirer of his, I've wanted to work
with him my entire career, and I've tried to times
before unsuccessfully, and had sent him things in the past.
And when I read Sammy's script, I was so blown
away by how she was able to do so much
(02:12):
with such kind of sparse language, like it almost it
revealed itself every day when we were shooting it, their
new subtext would just kind of come out through the
silences and what was between all of the lines, which
is so rare. And Todd is such a master of
female complexity and also performance related to identity. I mean,
(02:37):
it was such a great luck that he took to
it and Todd when you first read Sammy script, and Sammy,
I'll get to you in a second because I can't
wait to find out your story.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
What did you think about it?
Speaker 4 (02:50):
I thought it was brilliant and devious, and that it
put the reins into the It trusted the reader. You know,
it's so rare and and someone so young and so
you know, to have that confidence to really let the
(03:11):
reader navigate against themselves and the and the knowledges that
we bring in the you know, the fluency that we
bring to watching movies and all the expectations we have
for who to trust and who not to trust. And
so it very quickly became inspiring to me. And as
to how to turn it into a film, I will
(03:31):
just add the idea of being able to cast dorg
Unaley finally in something so complex and so witty, and
then to have the second role sitting right there.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
This is your fifth collaboration, isn't it. Yeah, we'll talk
about that in a moment. But Sammy, this is Sammy.
This is your first come on woman, this is your
first screenplay. You've got to tell I mean, tell me
about yourself. I know that the story of Mary Kay
letourno was the seed of this? How did this whole
(04:07):
story come to you? Just tell us a little bit
about why it struck you and why you wanted to
kind of dig into this topic.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
Yeah, I mean, I think we're in such an interesting
time right now with you know, re looking at all
these nineties tabloid culture, you know, these stories and kind
of picking them up again and a lot of times
retelling them the same way, I guess, and I think,
or in.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Some cases through a different lens.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
I absolutely right, absolutely sometimes looking at them through the
lens of now and how people were treated unfairly. But
I think the seed really was this idea of thinking
about that couple. I knew that they had kids, and
at a certain point I thought, oh, they're probably adults,
these kids, And this image of an empty house kind
of came to me of just you know, being an
(04:56):
empty nester at thirty six years old or you know,
mid thirty, which is really young enough to start over.
And so that was kind of the jumping off point
of wanting to look at a couple like that with
twenty years different, so there's just more air and more
room and breath.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Reworry when people were watching this film they would remember
that actual story, or that they would be able to
make a leap that this was, as Julianne told me
recently inspired by it. But it wasn't that story, you.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Know, as Sammy was sort of saying, I think I
took it and I sort of accepted and as the
sort of cultural raw material that we all share, right,
but that it was something that could be interpreted as
a fiction anew And the brilliant structure of the script
(05:52):
is that it's set all these years later, so it's
really about the excavation into the past and breaking through
those barriers that have been erected to protect this family
from that event in the role of this curious actress
who we think we trust.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
And then things start.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
To get crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
We're going to talk about the characters in a moment,
but I did want to ask Julianne about your working
relationship with Todd, as I said, this is the fifth collaboration,
so talk to us about why this works so well?
Speaker 7 (06:25):
Oh man, I don't mean I'm so lucky. I don't know,
I have no idea. I accept that. I mean I
think that that we have a shared sensibility, you know,
and from the very beginning when I auditioned for Safe.
I remember I had a very clear idea of how
I thought it should be performed, and I was desperate
to get the job, really just desperate. But there was
only one way I could see doing it. And I
(06:47):
thought to myself, if he doesn't like it, then I'm
just not the person for the job. And he did,
and that was what And I think we've had that
in all of our collaborations, where I feel like I'm
able to understand and he's also able to very very
clearly communicate what he wants, you know, to me through
his direction in his storytelling. You know, Todd gives you
(07:09):
tremendous scaffolding and context for absolutely everything you're doing, and
so it's like.
Speaker 8 (07:14):
He does all the work for you. So I feel
like I'm just the recipient.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Okay, you're shaking your head, Can you go and say no?
Speaker 4 (07:21):
I mean, I had this extraordinary fortune of meeting a
creative counterpart so early on in my career. You know,
it was my second feature, and Juliet had a career
on television and then was moving into film. But I
didn't know your work. I saw shortcuts it was about
to come out and people were like talking about this actor,
(07:41):
Julianne Moore, and I didn't realize how challenging that character
was until you embodied it, Like how almost impossible it
was to play until she understood the other side of
the mirror, right, And that's been what I've been experiencing
(08:03):
you ever since. And I've said this, you know, I
talk a lot about julian Natalie and Charles and these actors,
but I learned something from Julie.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Every time we return to.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
A project, there's things that happen in the room that
I can'tnot see until I watch it on film. So
there's this understanding of the medium that is just extrasensory deep.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Up next, Julianna and Natalie give us a sneak peek
into their process. How did they go about portraying these
fascinating and unusual women. That's right after this. If you
want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of
the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and
(08:52):
pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up
Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. And we're back
with the cast of May December. I have to ask
you Julianne about Gracie because she's such an enigma. I mean,
(09:14):
all of these characters are so damn weird to me.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
But tell me.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I mean, I'm just gonna say it. How would you
describe Gracey?
Speaker 7 (09:23):
Well, I mean, it's funny that you said that too,
because of course, you know, back to Sammy's script, it
was deceptively simple, you know, I mean it was really
really clean. And I read this and I'm like, oh,
I got it, I got it. I got this, no problem.
And then I started working on it and I called
Todd and I was like, oh, I don't think I
could do this. This is really hard. She's really complicated.
(09:44):
And I think that what Sammy has done so beautifully
in the script is that, you know, everyone is so
desperate to express their narrative, to tell their story, and
no one more so than Gracey.
Speaker 8 (09:53):
And Gracie's narrative is so complicated. And there was.
Speaker 7 (09:56):
Something in the script where I kept stumbling as I
was working on it. She was so well, Gracie was
very kind of commanding in her house, and I was like,
I don't get it. She doesn't seem like a mother
to me. She doesn't seem like she's in control. And
then I started thinking it's because I was like, oh, oh,
it's like, she's not the she's not the mom, she's
not the queen. She's a princess. She's a princess who
(10:16):
was rescued by her prince, and her prince was thirteen
years old, and in order to make that work, she
has to elevate him to being an adult, and she
remains a child. She's forever that princess. So she's not
the mom. She's a little girl with apron on a
wooden spoon in her hand, you know, saying, and she's
going to keep that's her that's her story. She's sticking
to it. And the distance between that narrative and the
(10:39):
huge transgression that occurred is vast, and there's so much
tension in between, and that's where all that emotional volatility happens,
so that when she's alone, you know, she just falls apart.
So I was like, oh, whoa, Sammy, whoa.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
And it's it. They're all trying to convince themselves they're happy.
And I'm curious about Natalie your role. You describe Elizabeth
as so slippery. What do you mean by that exactly?
And how would you describe her because she's so complicated too.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Yes, well, I think she's slippery all as Gracie is
as well, because there's at different points, and that's part
of the brilliance of Sammy script. There's different points where
you're with each of them and then they lose you.
You know, you're with them and you kind of believe
their version of the truth, like Julie was saying, and
(11:33):
then you.
Speaker 8 (11:35):
Realize that they've been manipulating you.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
And I was just struck so much by the levels
of artifice and performance and the embrace of that, and
Todd's brilliance of using all of these mirror scenes and
using the camera as the mirror so that even when
they're looking at themselves, it's performance. That it's like always
(11:58):
performance and you're just trying to ravel and find like,
someone tell me the truth, And of course then Charles
brilliantly is like true and honest, and you're so relieved
because no one else is telling you anything to get deal,
and so it's just, yeah, a beautiful construction that Sammy
made for us.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Even though that's a perfect segue to Charles, I have
to ask you and Julianne about the nature of your relationship.
When you all are that makeup scene speaking of mirrors,
I expected you to start making out for some reason,
and like I.
Speaker 8 (12:31):
Kind of heard sexual at tension.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
What did Natalie saying?
Speaker 8 (12:35):
I wanted to?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I mean, how would you describe the dynamic between these
two women. It's so it's such an interesting dance, isn't it.
Speaker 7 (12:44):
Yeah, I think they're in a struggle for dominance. You know,
it's like who's going to tell this story? And I
think the interesting thing for me as as Gracie is
that her need, her desperation to tell that story and
to have Elizabeth believe that story is so strong that
she's going to do about everything she can to make
her believe that, and including seducing her in a way.
(13:05):
You know, seduction is another form of power, right, But
what Natalie did so brilliantly as an actor and as
a character as a colleague is that she managed to
you know, it's like, you know, Gracie can experience as
Elizabeth mimicking her. She sees her copy her gestures and
movement and her dress, and.
Speaker 8 (13:24):
She approves of it.
Speaker 7 (13:25):
It feels good because she's like she's seeing me, like
I want to be seen right, So.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
I feel a character that way.
Speaker 7 (13:31):
But then when I watched the movie and I see
Natalie doing all this kind of crazy, like really commenting
on you know, managing to imitate me and then comment
on it when Gracie doesn't see, I was like, it
killed me.
Speaker 8 (13:43):
It's so good, It's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 7 (13:45):
So anyway, she was a tremendous partner, a great colleague,
and we had the best time together.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
It was so fun to watch you too at work
and just get lost in the roles, but also at
the same time admire your incredible artistry and portraying these
crazy ass women.
Speaker 8 (14:04):
Thank you. I just had to say that Julie's like my.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
All time like favorite actress, and I just was so
dying to work with her and to get to do
this together and realize how kind she was, generous and
fun with all of it made it so possible to
do all this nasty stuff to each other because it
was like so safe when we were off camera, you know,
(14:27):
was very clearly just playing together.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I understand it was shot in twenty three days. How
much rehearsing did you all do?
Speaker 9 (14:35):
So we had twenty three days to film and how
many days to rehearse, zero days to rehearse. But leading
up to filming in Savannah, Georgia, Todd would put together
these dinners and we would just hang out with each
other and get to know each other on a human level.
And there was just this complete trust in Todd and
the set that he built, in the atmosphere that he built,
(14:57):
and we were all in this together. And I was
so lucky to be with Natalie and Julie and just
have the best scene partners, the masters of their craft,
being led by Todd. So it was very every minute,
every second mattered and counted when we were filming, and
there's just some everyone brought their best and was elevated by.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
When we come back up and coming star Charles Melton
on getting inside of Joe's head, and screenwriter Sammy Birch
on watching her script come to life and we're back
(15:40):
with the cast of May December. Well, you know you're
getting a lot of attention Charles for your role, and
I know that you just received the Gotham Award for
Best Supporting Actor last night, so congratulations. Joe really is
a fascinating, again complicated character. He's more honest perhaps Natalie,
(16:04):
but he's still sort of simmering and you can't quite
read what he's thinking, although towards the end I think
he's like, holy shit, what have I gotten myself into?
Right when he's watching the graduation. But tell us a
little bit about how you approached this role. Did you
read about Mary kay Laturno? I mean, how did you
think about it?
Speaker 7 (16:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (16:25):
There was there's so much source material to look at,
but it really just started with Samy's script. I mean
there was just so much in between the text, and
I kind of saw this vast arena to explore with
Joe and the sensibility of him having so much responsibility
at thirteen, being a father. That mixed in with just
(16:46):
public perception and you know, being a loving husband, and
you know, I kind of looked at certain things in
my life personally that I could apply or find a
parallel to that wasn't so much the same experience, but
the filling was similar. You know, my dad was in
the army. I was an Army brat, and when I
was eleven years old, he sat me down the night
(17:07):
before he left to go to the Gulf War. I'm sorry,
Desert storm. He did go to the golf wur but
desert storm, and you know, it was like, you know,
to step up and take care of my two younger sisters.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
You're the man of the house.
Speaker 9 (17:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And like as a kid, you want
to step up to the plate, you know, when your
hero's telling you this, you want to do whatever you can.
And in a way I could find draw that parallel
with Joe for his kids and stepping up to the plate,
and for Gracie too, So that was a little bit
of what I looked at.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, I know, you put on thirty pounds for the role,
and I know, Todd, when you first consider Charles, who
were like, there's no way. Why did you not think
he was right for the role?
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Initially because he was so unimaginably handsome. I was like,
there are no real people like that in walking, you know,
through Tybee Island, Georgia.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Why did you put on thirty pounds? Did you feel
like you had to have a dad bought or something.
Speaker 9 (18:10):
I just wanted to enjoy life. No, But Todd and
I we had a few conversations of what Joe not
so much looked like, but what he would feel like,
and it was kind of just you know, the uh,
the green lights to just really go in and have
five guys every night, pizza, ice cream, ranch, just.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Out of a cup.
Speaker 9 (18:32):
I was eating it all.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
He was sort of sadly stunted, wasn't he sure?
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's like a.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Larval state, this man speaking of monarch butterflies. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
And the thing about what Charles you know, did is
that I saw his picture, but then I saw his tapes,
his self tape with Laura rose On, my casting director,
and we were like, wait a minute, this is we
saw some great actress for the role of Joe, But no, buddy,
did this. Nobody approached it with such a minute sense
(19:06):
of present tense where it was somebody pre verbal. It
was somebody who hadn't yet learned how to see themselves
and see what was going on. And that's what this
film needed, because these were two women who were so
adept at telling stories to get them through their lives.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
And also couldn't see themselves as a result.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
But you know, but that was their practice, that was
their career, that was their profession. And then the third
act opens up a space for Joe to begin to
exist and take those tiny steps forward.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Sammy, can you tell us a little bit about yourself.
I mean, how weird is it sitting on this stage
with all these people, and what has this experience been like?
Just tell us about you. That was a very that
was a very Barbara Walters question. Go ahead, Well, it's
been very surreal obvious.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
I mean, obviously this is very surreal, and and even
more so because the very first conversation with with Jessica Albaum,
the first producer attached with her and Will Ferrell, it
was the day before the pandemic shut down. So then
everything that followed was very kind of like I was
(20:25):
in my apartment still, but then it was like, oh,
Todd Haynes is interested, We're going to zoom with him
and Natalie Portman. I was like, okay, you know, like
there's like a sort of unreality to it. But but
from the beginning too, it's.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Just been.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
So amazing with these people who are you know, artists.
I've have meant the world to me their work, and
then to find out they're also so kind and funny
and generous, and and to get to watch up close,
you know, the process of Todd.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Making a movie.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I mean, it's it's really it's quite amazing congratulations. It's
an incredible story and I'm so thrilled for you. But
sort of as a closing thought, you know, I think
when I watched this movie, I was left with so
many more questions than answers. You know, was Gracie sexually assaulted?
You know? Is Elizabeth just this horrific narcissist who wants
(21:30):
to wreak havoc wherever she goes and destroy people's lives?
Speaker 7 (21:34):
You know?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Was She's a question? Yeah? Was Charles? You know? Was
was Joe? Sorry, Charles?
Speaker 1 (21:42):
You know, just as I said, sort of tragically stunted?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Was he happy? Or did he?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Does he not even understand what happiness is? And I
guess the question is anybody can take this who wants to?
But was that the goal in a way to leave
things leave you questioning? Because I kept thinking about these
characters after I saw the film and really wondering about
(22:09):
them and what made them tick? And is that sort
of the goal todd of a film like this to
leave things so enigmatic and unclear in a way?
Speaker 4 (22:20):
You know, this script in this project reminded me of
the way films that I saw when I was young
that triggered questions There were maybe a little beyond my
grasp when I was the age I saw them, but
that made you want to revisit them and made you
want to see them again and think about them and
talk about them with your friends.
Speaker 6 (22:39):
And that's what movies are to me. You know, movies
are about asking questions that aren't easy to answer. They
stay in your head that keep you.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Going back and wondering and re examining them. And I
think that's true for classic Hollywood, the great classic Hollywood films,
for European art cinema, for independent film.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
Those are the films that, you know, keep me inspired.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
So this film, this project, and working with these guys
and my whole crew, was an.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
Example of that.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I have one other quick question, which is the music,
which is so almost another character in the film, and
I saw that it was Michelle Legrand, who died in
twenty nineteen, and then I read that this was actually
the score of a movie that was made in nineteen
seventy one. Can you just explain that and how you
repurposed it or how that worked.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
This is Marcelo's Arvis's, my composer's adaptation based on the
score from the Go Between nineteen seventy one Joseph Lozi
Film and Julie Christine Alan Bates and I saw the
film when I was I think when it came out
when I was young. But I saw it again on
TCM last year while I was doing my image book
and putting together references for this movie, and the score
(23:49):
just knocked my socks off and put me on the
lyric and made me question the film that would unfold.
And I thought, that is along with the sort of restraint,
alongside the kind of restraint of the camera and the
observational style of this film, that's sort of someone else steer.
Speaker 6 (24:07):
I wanted something very strong.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
To trigger the audience to be like excited or invited
into a process of thinking and questioning. But that would
be pleasurable, you know, that would be like an enigma
that you were trying to solve as you were watching it.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
So that was that we used that film. We use
that music while.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
We shot the film as an example of what the
music might be in the end. Oh really, then yes,
We shot it from the very first shot that we
set up. It was used through the entire film, every
queue from Michell La Grand's score, and then it became
part of the DNA of this film, so we couldn't.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
I had to go to Marcelo and.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Say and say, dude, can we can we adapt it
and make it your own and he.
Speaker 6 (24:52):
Did just that well.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
It really added so much, obviously to the film. Congratulations
to all of you. It was fann.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out. You can leave a short message at six
(25:23):
oh nine five point two five to five five, or
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Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
(25:48):
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
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(26:11):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.
Talk about a superstar lineup. Natalie Portman, Julianne Moore, Charles Melton,
Todd Haynes. They're the talent behind May December, the gripping
psychological thriller directed by Haines and written by first time
(00:26):
screenwriter Sammy Birch. It's getting a lot of attention and
it's been nominated for three Golden Globes. The movie is
partially based on the shocking story of Mary Kay Latourno.
If you're not old enough to remember, she was the
school teacher from a suburb of Seattle who went to
prison in the nineties after beginning a relationship with one
(00:47):
of her students. At the time, she was thirty four
and he was twelve. May December imagines a similar couple,
Gracie and Joe, played by Julianne Moore and Charles Melton,
and years after their relationship began, what would their life
be like now, how did their story unfold, and what
(01:08):
would happen if an actress Natalie Portman showed up to
research her role portraying Gracie in an upcoming movie. That's
how May December begins. It's a strange, twisty tale of love,
lust and a not exactly age appropriate relationship given the
Todd Haynes treatment. I interviewed the group following a screening
(01:31):
and it was a fascinating conversation. I hope you enjoyed listening.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
To it, Natalie.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I know that your production company originally found the script
for this film and brought it to Todd. Why did
you believe he would be the right person to tell
this story?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I kind of think Todd could tell any story beautifully.
And such an admirer of his, I've wanted to work
with him my entire career, and I've tried to times
before unsuccessfully, and had sent him things in the past.
And when I read Sammy's script, I was so blown
away by how she was able to do so much
(02:12):
with such kind of sparse language, like it almost it
revealed itself every day when we were shooting it, their
new subtext would just kind of come out through the
silences and what was between all of the lines, which
is so rare. And Todd is such a master of
female complexity and also performance related to identity. I mean,
(02:37):
it was such a great luck that he took to
it and Todd when you first read Sammy script, and Sammy,
I'll get to you in a second because I can't
wait to find out your story.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
What did you think about it?
Speaker 4 (02:50):
I thought it was brilliant and devious, and that it
put the reins into the It trusted the reader. You know,
it's so rare and and someone so young and so
you know, to have that confidence to really let the
(03:11):
reader navigate against themselves and the and the knowledges that
we bring in the you know, the fluency that we
bring to watching movies and all the expectations we have
for who to trust and who not to trust. And
so it very quickly became inspiring to me. And as
to how to turn it into a film, I will
(03:31):
just add the idea of being able to cast dorg
Unaley finally in something so complex and so witty, and
then to have the second role sitting right there.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
This is your fifth collaboration, isn't it. Yeah, we'll talk
about that in a moment. But Sammy, this is Sammy.
This is your first come on woman, this is your
first screenplay. You've got to tell I mean, tell me
about yourself. I know that the story of Mary Kay
letourno was the seed of this? How did this whole
(04:07):
story come to you? Just tell us a little bit
about why it struck you and why you wanted to
kind of dig into this topic.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
Yeah, I mean, I think we're in such an interesting
time right now with you know, re looking at all
these nineties tabloid culture, you know, these stories and kind
of picking them up again and a lot of times
retelling them the same way, I guess, and I think,
or in.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Some cases through a different lens.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
I absolutely right, absolutely sometimes looking at them through the
lens of now and how people were treated unfairly. But
I think the seed really was this idea of thinking
about that couple. I knew that they had kids, and
at a certain point I thought, oh, they're probably adults,
these kids, And this image of an empty house kind
of came to me of just you know, being an
(04:56):
empty nester at thirty six years old or you know,
mid thirty, which is really young enough to start over.
And so that was kind of the jumping off point
of wanting to look at a couple like that with
twenty years different, so there's just more air and more
room and breath.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Reworry when people were watching this film they would remember
that actual story, or that they would be able to
make a leap that this was, as Julianne told me
recently inspired by it. But it wasn't that story, you.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Know, as Sammy was sort of saying, I think I
took it and I sort of accepted and as the
sort of cultural raw material that we all share, right,
but that it was something that could be interpreted as
a fiction anew And the brilliant structure of the script
(05:52):
is that it's set all these years later, so it's
really about the excavation into the past and breaking through
those barriers that have been erected to protect this family
from that event in the role of this curious actress
who we think we trust.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
And then things start.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
To get crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
We're going to talk about the characters in a moment,
but I did want to ask Julianne about your working
relationship with Todd, as I said, this is the fifth collaboration,
so talk to us about why this works so well?
Speaker 7 (06:25):
Oh man, I don't mean I'm so lucky. I don't know,
I have no idea. I accept that. I mean I
think that that we have a shared sensibility, you know,
and from the very beginning when I auditioned for Safe.
I remember I had a very clear idea of how
I thought it should be performed, and I was desperate
to get the job, really just desperate. But there was
only one way I could see doing it. And I
(06:47):
thought to myself, if he doesn't like it, then I'm
just not the person for the job. And he did,
and that was what And I think we've had that
in all of our collaborations, where I feel like I'm
able to understand and he's also able to very very
clearly communicate what he wants, you know, to me through
his direction in his storytelling. You know, Todd gives you
(07:09):
tremendous scaffolding and context for absolutely everything you're doing, and
so it's like.
Speaker 8 (07:14):
He does all the work for you. So I feel
like I'm just the recipient.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Okay, you're shaking your head, Can you go and say no?
Speaker 4 (07:21):
I mean, I had this extraordinary fortune of meeting a
creative counterpart so early on in my career. You know,
it was my second feature, and Juliet had a career
on television and then was moving into film. But I
didn't know your work. I saw shortcuts it was about
to come out and people were like talking about this actor,
(07:41):
Julianne Moore, and I didn't realize how challenging that character
was until you embodied it, Like how almost impossible it
was to play until she understood the other side of
the mirror, right, And that's been what I've been experiencing
(08:03):
you ever since. And I've said this, you know, I
talk a lot about julian Natalie and Charles and these actors,
but I learned something from Julie.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Every time we return to.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
A project, there's things that happen in the room that
I can'tnot see until I watch it on film. So
there's this understanding of the medium that is just extrasensory deep.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Up next, Julianna and Natalie give us a sneak peek
into their process. How did they go about portraying these
fascinating and unusual women. That's right after this. If you
want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of
the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and
(08:52):
pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up
Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. And we're back
with the cast of May December. I have to ask
you Julianne about Gracie because she's such an enigma. I mean,
(09:14):
all of these characters are so damn weird to me.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
But tell me.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I mean, I'm just gonna say it. How would you
describe Gracey?
Speaker 7 (09:23):
Well, I mean, it's funny that you said that too,
because of course, you know, back to Sammy's script, it
was deceptively simple, you know, I mean it was really
really clean. And I read this and I'm like, oh,
I got it, I got it. I got this, no problem.
And then I started working on it and I called
Todd and I was like, oh, I don't think I
could do this. This is really hard. She's really complicated.
(09:44):
And I think that what Sammy has done so beautifully
in the script is that, you know, everyone is so
desperate to express their narrative, to tell their story, and
no one more so than Gracey.
Speaker 8 (09:53):
And Gracie's narrative is so complicated. And there was.
Speaker 7 (09:56):
Something in the script where I kept stumbling as I
was working on it. She was so well, Gracie was
very kind of commanding in her house, and I was like,
I don't get it. She doesn't seem like a mother
to me. She doesn't seem like she's in control. And
then I started thinking it's because I was like, oh, oh,
it's like, she's not the she's not the mom, she's
not the queen. She's a princess. She's a princess who
(10:16):
was rescued by her prince, and her prince was thirteen
years old, and in order to make that work, she
has to elevate him to being an adult, and she
remains a child. She's forever that princess. So she's not
the mom. She's a little girl with apron on a
wooden spoon in her hand, you know, saying, and she's
going to keep that's her that's her story. She's sticking
to it. And the distance between that narrative and the
(10:39):
huge transgression that occurred is vast, and there's so much
tension in between, and that's where all that emotional volatility happens,
so that when she's alone, you know, she just falls apart.
So I was like, oh, whoa, Sammy, whoa.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
And it's it. They're all trying to convince themselves they're happy.
And I'm curious about Natalie your role. You describe Elizabeth
as so slippery. What do you mean by that exactly?
And how would you describe her because she's so complicated too.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Yes, well, I think she's slippery all as Gracie is
as well, because there's at different points, and that's part
of the brilliance of Sammy script. There's different points where
you're with each of them and then they lose you.
You know, you're with them and you kind of believe
their version of the truth, like Julie was saying, and
(11:33):
then you.
Speaker 8 (11:35):
Realize that they've been manipulating you.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
And I was just struck so much by the levels
of artifice and performance and the embrace of that, and
Todd's brilliance of using all of these mirror scenes and
using the camera as the mirror so that even when
they're looking at themselves, it's performance. That it's like always
(11:58):
performance and you're just trying to ravel and find like,
someone tell me the truth, And of course then Charles
brilliantly is like true and honest, and you're so relieved
because no one else is telling you anything to get deal,
and so it's just, yeah, a beautiful construction that Sammy
made for us.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Even though that's a perfect segue to Charles, I have
to ask you and Julianne about the nature of your relationship.
When you all are that makeup scene speaking of mirrors,
I expected you to start making out for some reason,
and like I.
Speaker 8 (12:31):
Kind of heard sexual at tension.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
What did Natalie saying?
Speaker 8 (12:35):
I wanted to?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I mean, how would you describe the dynamic between these
two women. It's so it's such an interesting dance, isn't it.
Speaker 7 (12:44):
Yeah, I think they're in a struggle for dominance. You know,
it's like who's going to tell this story? And I
think the interesting thing for me as as Gracie is
that her need, her desperation to tell that story and
to have Elizabeth believe that story is so strong that
she's going to do about everything she can to make
her believe that, and including seducing her in a way.
(13:05):
You know, seduction is another form of power, right, But
what Natalie did so brilliantly as an actor and as
a character as a colleague is that she managed to
you know, it's like, you know, Gracie can experience as
Elizabeth mimicking her. She sees her copy her gestures and
movement and her dress, and.
Speaker 8 (13:24):
She approves of it.
Speaker 7 (13:25):
It feels good because she's like she's seeing me, like
I want to be seen right, So.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
I feel a character that way.
Speaker 7 (13:31):
But then when I watched the movie and I see
Natalie doing all this kind of crazy, like really commenting
on you know, managing to imitate me and then comment
on it when Gracie doesn't see, I was like, it
killed me.
Speaker 8 (13:43):
It's so good, It's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 7 (13:45):
So anyway, she was a tremendous partner, a great colleague,
and we had the best time together.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
It was so fun to watch you too at work
and just get lost in the roles, but also at
the same time admire your incredible artistry and portraying these
crazy ass women.
Speaker 8 (14:04):
Thank you. I just had to say that Julie's like my.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
All time like favorite actress, and I just was so
dying to work with her and to get to do
this together and realize how kind she was, generous and
fun with all of it made it so possible to
do all this nasty stuff to each other because it
was like so safe when we were off camera, you know,
(14:27):
was very clearly just playing together.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I understand it was shot in twenty three days. How
much rehearsing did you all do?
Speaker 9 (14:35):
So we had twenty three days to film and how
many days to rehearse, zero days to rehearse. But leading
up to filming in Savannah, Georgia, Todd would put together
these dinners and we would just hang out with each
other and get to know each other on a human level.
And there was just this complete trust in Todd and
the set that he built, in the atmosphere that he built,
(14:57):
and we were all in this together. And I was
so lucky to be with Natalie and Julie and just
have the best scene partners, the masters of their craft,
being led by Todd. So it was very every minute,
every second mattered and counted when we were filming, and
there's just some everyone brought their best and was elevated by.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
When we come back up and coming star Charles Melton
on getting inside of Joe's head, and screenwriter Sammy Birch
on watching her script come to life and we're back
(15:40):
with the cast of May December. Well, you know you're
getting a lot of attention Charles for your role, and
I know that you just received the Gotham Award for
Best Supporting Actor last night, so congratulations. Joe really is
a fascinating, again complicated character. He's more honest perhaps Natalie,
(16:04):
but he's still sort of simmering and you can't quite
read what he's thinking, although towards the end I think
he's like, holy shit, what have I gotten myself into?
Right when he's watching the graduation. But tell us a
little bit about how you approached this role. Did you
read about Mary kay Laturno? I mean, how did you
think about it?
Speaker 7 (16:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (16:25):
There was there's so much source material to look at,
but it really just started with Samy's script. I mean
there was just so much in between the text, and
I kind of saw this vast arena to explore with
Joe and the sensibility of him having so much responsibility
at thirteen, being a father. That mixed in with just
(16:46):
public perception and you know, being a loving husband, and
you know, I kind of looked at certain things in
my life personally that I could apply or find a
parallel to that wasn't so much the same experience, but
the filling was similar. You know, my dad was in
the army. I was an Army brat, and when I
was eleven years old, he sat me down the night
(17:07):
before he left to go to the Gulf War. I'm sorry,
Desert storm. He did go to the golf wur but
desert storm, and you know, it was like, you know,
to step up and take care of my two younger sisters.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
You're the man of the house.
Speaker 9 (17:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And like as a kid, you want
to step up to the plate, you know, when your
hero's telling you this, you want to do whatever you can.
And in a way I could find draw that parallel
with Joe for his kids and stepping up to the plate,
and for Gracie too, So that was a little bit
of what I looked at.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, I know, you put on thirty pounds for the role,
and I know, Todd, when you first consider Charles, who
were like, there's no way. Why did you not think
he was right for the role?
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Initially because he was so unimaginably handsome. I was like,
there are no real people like that in walking, you know,
through Tybee Island, Georgia.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Why did you put on thirty pounds? Did you feel
like you had to have a dad bought or something.
Speaker 9 (18:10):
I just wanted to enjoy life. No, But Todd and
I we had a few conversations of what Joe not
so much looked like, but what he would feel like,
and it was kind of just you know, the uh,
the green lights to just really go in and have
five guys every night, pizza, ice cream, ranch, just.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Out of a cup.
Speaker 9 (18:32):
I was eating it all.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
He was sort of sadly stunted, wasn't he sure?
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's like a.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Larval state, this man speaking of monarch butterflies. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
And the thing about what Charles you know, did is
that I saw his picture, but then I saw his tapes,
his self tape with Laura rose On, my casting director,
and we were like, wait a minute, this is we
saw some great actress for the role of Joe, But no, buddy,
did this. Nobody approached it with such a minute sense
(19:06):
of present tense where it was somebody pre verbal. It
was somebody who hadn't yet learned how to see themselves
and see what was going on. And that's what this
film needed, because these were two women who were so
adept at telling stories to get them through their lives.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
And also couldn't see themselves as a result.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
But you know, but that was their practice, that was
their career, that was their profession. And then the third
act opens up a space for Joe to begin to
exist and take those tiny steps forward.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Sammy, can you tell us a little bit about yourself.
I mean, how weird is it sitting on this stage
with all these people, and what has this experience been like?
Just tell us about you. That was a very that
was a very Barbara Walters question. Go ahead, Well, it's
been very surreal obvious.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
I mean, obviously this is very surreal, and and even
more so because the very first conversation with with Jessica Albaum,
the first producer attached with her and Will Ferrell, it
was the day before the pandemic shut down. So then
everything that followed was very kind of like I was
(20:25):
in my apartment still, but then it was like, oh,
Todd Haynes is interested, We're going to zoom with him
and Natalie Portman. I was like, okay, you know, like
there's like a sort of unreality to it. But but
from the beginning too, it's.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Just been.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
So amazing with these people who are you know, artists.
I've have meant the world to me their work, and
then to find out they're also so kind and funny
and generous, and and to get to watch up close,
you know, the process of Todd.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Making a movie.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I mean, it's it's really it's quite amazing congratulations. It's
an incredible story and I'm so thrilled for you. But
sort of as a closing thought, you know, I think
when I watched this movie, I was left with so
many more questions than answers. You know, was Gracie sexually assaulted?
You know? Is Elizabeth just this horrific narcissist who wants
(21:30):
to wreak havoc wherever she goes and destroy people's lives?
Speaker 7 (21:34):
You know?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Was She's a question? Yeah? Was Charles? You know? Was
was Joe? Sorry, Charles?
Speaker 1 (21:42):
You know, just as I said, sort of tragically stunted?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Was he happy? Or did he?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Does he not even understand what happiness is? And I
guess the question is anybody can take this who wants to?
But was that the goal in a way to leave
things leave you questioning? Because I kept thinking about these
characters after I saw the film and really wondering about
(22:09):
them and what made them tick? And is that sort
of the goal todd of a film like this to
leave things so enigmatic and unclear in a way?
Speaker 4 (22:20):
You know, this script in this project reminded me of
the way films that I saw when I was young
that triggered questions There were maybe a little beyond my
grasp when I was the age I saw them, but
that made you want to revisit them and made you
want to see them again and think about them and
talk about them with your friends.
Speaker 6 (22:39):
And that's what movies are to me. You know, movies
are about asking questions that aren't easy to answer. They
stay in your head that keep you.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Going back and wondering and re examining them. And I
think that's true for classic Hollywood, the great classic Hollywood films,
for European art cinema, for independent film.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
Those are the films that, you know, keep me inspired.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
So this film, this project, and working with these guys
and my whole crew, was an.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
Example of that.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I have one other quick question, which is the music,
which is so almost another character in the film, and
I saw that it was Michelle Legrand, who died in
twenty nineteen, and then I read that this was actually
the score of a movie that was made in nineteen
seventy one. Can you just explain that and how you
repurposed it or how that worked.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
This is Marcelo's Arvis's, my composer's adaptation based on the
score from the Go Between nineteen seventy one Joseph Lozi
Film and Julie Christine Alan Bates and I saw the
film when I was I think when it came out
when I was young. But I saw it again on
TCM last year while I was doing my image book
and putting together references for this movie, and the score
(23:49):
just knocked my socks off and put me on the
lyric and made me question the film that would unfold.
And I thought, that is along with the sort of restraint,
alongside the kind of restraint of the camera and the
observational style of this film, that's sort of someone else steer.
Speaker 6 (24:07):
I wanted something very strong.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
To trigger the audience to be like excited or invited
into a process of thinking and questioning. But that would
be pleasurable, you know, that would be like an enigma
that you were trying to solve as you were watching it.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
So that was that we used that film. We use
that music while.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
We shot the film as an example of what the
music might be in the end. Oh really, then yes,
We shot it from the very first shot that we
set up. It was used through the entire film, every
queue from Michell La Grand's score, and then it became
part of the DNA of this film, so we couldn't.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
I had to go to Marcelo and.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Say and say, dude, can we can we adapt it
and make it your own and he.
Speaker 6 (24:52):
Did just that well.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
It really added so much, obviously to the film. Congratulations
to all of you. It was fann.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out. You can leave a short message at six
(25:23):
oh nine five point two five to five five, or
you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
(25:48):
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app or visit
us at Katie correct dot com. You can also find
me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(26:11):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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