October 17, 2024 • 51 mins
This episode of Next Question explores how internet culture, and platforms like TikTok, X, and Instagram have transformed voters’ perception of the candidates, and the way candidates interact with voters. Joining Katie is pop culture expert Evan Ross Katz and political analyst Molly Jong-Fast. Together, they’ll discuss how memes and online trends are shaping the 2024 election, if viral posts are swaying voters, and why traditional outlets (and their fact checking and gatekeepers) are increasingly left out of candidates’ schedules.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.
You know, I have been covering elections since Reagan and
Carter back in nineteen eighty. Yes, everyone, I am that old.
And to say that the way a campaign is run,
(00:24):
the way a campaign is covered has changed dramatically, well
that is a massive understatement. Social media and internet culture
has been a driving force of Donald Trump's campaigns. Let
us not forget his late night tweeting and now Kamala
with her massive digital team overseeing her TikTok and Instagram account.
(00:45):
So I really wanted to have a conversation to understand
how the various platforms are informing voters and what impact
they'll have. And there's no one better equipped to help
guide this conversation than cultural commentator internet aficionado Evan ross Katz. Evan, Hey,
thank you for being my date today.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh my god, Katie, I will always be your plus
one when called upon.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Well we should probably. I think some of my listeners
might not be familiar with your work. Evan, How would
you describe yourself and what you do? I would say
I am a pop culture chronicler. So Katie, thanks largely
to you. Actually, thanks entirely to you.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Mike White deemed me at the most valuable hype man
in TV history, which is literally going to permanently go
in my bio.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
And of course Mike White is the writer, creator, director
of White Lotus. And we should just talk very briefly
before we bring Molly in about how you and I
got to know each other. I mean, I kind of
made you what you are today, Evan.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
You did you did you? I credit you with all
of my quote unquook success is all through the pipeline
of Dittye girk Well to explain, please, So you had
me on one of your We did a live show together.
I think this was like what two years ago now, time.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Really does fly right at City Winery.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yes, and you surprised me with a video from Mike Way,
which is when he gave me, you know, deemed me
the super fan that I am. And then from there
I formed a friendship with Mike and now I'm involved
in some facet of the White Loatus that I can't
quite yet announce, but it has led to you know,
exciting professional opportunities for me via Mike Waite.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Wow. That is awesome, Hi, Molly. So we might as well, say,
Hi'm Molly John Fast, who is our guest today. Molly
is an MSNBC political analyst, host of the Fast Politics podcast.
She's a Vanity Fair Special correspondent. She wears many hats,
but today she's wearing the hat as our guest of
(02:45):
next question. Molly John Fast and Evan ross Katz. I
don't know. It just seems to fit together, doesn't it, Mollie.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Three names for the when right?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, let's talk about internet culture, because that's something that
Evan is uniquely familiar with and I think is actually
in some ways responsible for certain aspects of it. And you,
Molly started a series on Instagram called Internet Stuff. When
(03:14):
did you decide to start sharing tweets and memes you
stumble upon?
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Oh, that's a really interesting question that no one has
ever asked me about it. So so much of my
life is this obsession, and it's a question I ask
people all the time, and I'm curious to hear both
of your answers of it too. I hope were this
country three hundred plus million people really like three hundred
and thirty million people. That is a humongous country, and
(03:40):
only like ten million people read the newspaper right, two million,
three million watch cable news four or five, six, maybe
as many as seven watch you know, regular news. So
where is everyone getting all of their news from? And
I have become obsessed with this idea, like where are
(04:00):
people getting their news from?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Where?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
And as Twitter AX has become less and less useful
because again there's no algorithm. And I'm curious what you
both think of this, because there's no algorithmic transparency on
any of these sides. So we don't know why some
things do well and other things don't do well right right,
And we don't know why, you know, the algorithm likes
(04:26):
a certain picture and doesn't like another picture when it
comes to Instagram, or why a tweet gets a gazillion
retweets and not another tweet. So my question was always
like why are you seeing what you're seeing? And as
X got less and less good, I became more and
more obsessed with the idea of just at least getting
(04:47):
something out there right. And that's why I started posting
that kind of stuff on Instagram, not because I particularly think,
I mean, in my own personal life, I don't know
that text on Instagram does anything good for me, But
I became. So you know, one of the things that
I think has really not served me this election cycle
is that I truly believe everything I'm saying. So I
(05:09):
truly believe that Donald Trump is an existential threat to
American democracy and that if this election, you know, if
Trump gets re elected, that we are all going to
be living in a world that is hard to really fathom.
And so I have been you know, I actually really
really and again this is something you're sort of not
(05:29):
supposed to be as a journalist, but I am on
the opinion side. I genuinely am just anxious about getting
content out there so that people can see. And you know,
one of the great people who is often on Morning
Joe and sometimes with me is the guy who does
the charts this amazing Steve Ratner. Hello Steve Ratner, and
(05:50):
Steve Ratner just gets the information out there. And part
of me wonders, like, how much can we just try
to get the information in front of people? And so
that's why I started doing it, just out of sheer
anxiety that perhaps another person will see a bit of
news that will then galvanize them to vote.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And Evan, how did you become a pop culture chronicler
on social media and why were you drawn to that
just as Molly is trying to disseminate information because she's
in a constant state of anxiety. Yes, basically, but your
kind of obsession with the internet culture predates this election.
Tell us how you got sucked into it?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
So similar to MOLLI like Twitter obviously is a very
different platform now it doesn't even have that name anymore,
but I still like to use Twitter to like extract information.
I still find it to be a valuable place to
learn about pop culture. I would also agree with Mollie
where I don't really trust the likes on Twitter anymore.
So even though Twitter will tell me this post has
gone viral, I'm not always so sure about that, and
(06:54):
I think it actually leads to about the dissemination of
in fact misinformation. But to answer your question, I think
for me in the beginning, it was very organic. There
were things that I was drawn to that I didn't
see people talking about enough, and I thought, you know,
at that time, I had a very small platform. But
for me, it was just about like wanting to recommend
things to my friends, wanting to get eyeballs, and things
that I found interesting. I also found that in this
(07:17):
media landscape where there is so much out there. I mean,
we're talking about politics today, but the Internet encompasses sports,
there's fashion, there's entertainment, there's there's so many conversations happening
on the Internet that I found the idea of distilling
it to be something that was really valuable for people.
And so I said earlier that I liked to think
I'm a pop culture chronicler, but I'm alsto trying my
best to distill the information that I think audiences should
(07:39):
be hearing about, because even in the entertainment landscape, there's
just so much content out there. So it's important for
some people to have that, you know, sort of shrunk
in as much as possible and shown to them in
fits and starts.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
You weren't always focused on politics. In fact, you're kind
of late to the political arena, Evan. But I would
venture to say, Mollie and Evan, that this is the
first truly social media election. Yes, we had Donald Trump
tweeting wildly in twenty sixteen, and we've had obviously social
(08:17):
media gaining significant round. More people get their news from
digital devices than linear television now. But I feel like
the Kamala Harris team really gets it. Would you agree
with that? I mean, Kamala Harris has two hundred and
fifty people working on her digital team, and they're doing
a really phenomenal job. They have been on things almost
(08:41):
immediately we talk about, you know, the brat moment this summer,
we talked about, you know, the coconut tree stuff that
actually was used to her advantage. Mollie, when you look
at the whole political landscape, are you surprised at how
much social media has really taken over this campaign cycle?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
No, and you're right about the team. They have done
amazing staff. I actually was there the other day doing
little interviews with them in Wilmington, which is not close
to anything. In case you're.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Wondering why are they I mean, I know that's where
Joe Biden is. Is that just where they set up
shops and they have moved to New York or Washington?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
I think many of them have that same question. But
they all stayed in Wilmington, Delaware. So if you want
a sitcom.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
That must have been fascinating.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I mean I was like, you, guys, what is it
like being some of them have been there for as
much as two years, a year and change, like a
year and two months. They said there's a lot of
hiking trails. It was a pretty it was pretty bleak. So, yes,
this is the first social media election. I would say
(09:54):
a thing that I think about a lot is that
tech companies, after or bankrupting local news, right after pretty
much taking apart our media ecosystem, have given up on
content moderation and you know, any kind of fact checking.
So now we sort of gave we gave over the keys,
(10:20):
and they have decided they're going to keyr Car. So
in my mind, I'm a little salty about that. I'm
going to be honest and a little bit mad at them.
And I don't quite understand there's so much disinformation. I mean,
Elon Musk has already said a million different ways, including
(10:41):
jumping up and down in Pennsylvania, that he is actively
working for Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So there's that, and that he's willing to spend one
hundred and forty million dollars to make sure that he's selected.
I just read that.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yeah, I mean that for for Elon is a rounding error,
but you know, certainly he wants and I mean I
have to wonder how much of Elon's ambitions for Trump
have to do with AI and the future of AI
and not having any regulation there. I mean, one of
the ways in which the American government on the left
(11:15):
and the right has just completely fucked up beyond recognition
is they decided not to ever do any regulation when
it comes to technology or social media. So you have
CBS is not allowed to be owned by you know,
there are all sorts of rules for CBS, right, all
sorts of rules for NBC New York Times, and then
(11:35):
Twitter whatever, Instagram sure, largest social media platform owned by
the Chinese government.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Like, what are we doing?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Man?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
What? I'm sorry, That's all I have to say.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
What do you think, Evan about sort of the takeover
by social media of the political realm and just talk
about how you've seen this campaign on phone on your phone.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So I would push back at the idea of this
being like the first social media election. I do think
this took place in twenty sixteen as well. I think
the big difference would be the level of engagement from
the campaigns themselves, because I do think people were very
active on social media in twenty sixteen, and the candidates
were as well, But there was a different way in
which they were speaking to the platform at that time.
(12:23):
So that's a big difference.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, I guess. I mean that they've taken full advantage
of social media and almost it feels like to me,
as someone who's covered these elections for a while, it
feels like a social media first strategy in some ways.
And of course maybe that's because I don't watch that
much television and I'm on my phone and this is
where I'm getting the messaging.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
But go on. Yeah, and I often feel like you
can watch television by going on social media because people
are clipping out the moments that you need to see.
So in essence, we are watching television even though we
aren't going to the platform itself. But what I see
is the big difference with something like Kamala HQ, for instance,
is that they're able to actually post clips of the
opposing party, like the opposing ticket, and make them look dumb.
(13:08):
And that is something that I think is unique. If
you go to Kamala Harris's Instagram page, you're not going
to see clips of Trump looking stupid in an interview,
but on Kamala HQ you will. There are some key moments,
for instance, jd Vance at the donut shop looking like
an idiot that is not going to be posted on
Kamala's account, that the HQ account can seize on that moment,
(13:28):
a moment that has so much virality potential and actually
use the Kamala HQ account to disseminate a video like
that that wouldn't have a home elsewhere. So there's an
own ability to being able to dunk on someone like
Trump that Kamala HQ has seized on. And interestingly, on
the inverse side, Trump does not have a form of
(13:48):
Trump HQ. So what that ended up being was the
attempt of that was sort of the original. There was
some account that that was the one that first put
out the Kamala coconut video up going viral. How was
their attempt to sort of create the Kamala HQ narrative
on their side, But it ends up backfiring and people
just ended up loving it. And then Kamala HQ came
(14:10):
grabbed that clip and said no, this is actually wonderful
and people bought that. So I feel like the Republican
Party has not been able to find the counterpoint to
Kamala HQ.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
It's a really good point, av'd said that, I've seen
a lot of posts and a lot of videos making
fun or mocking Kamala Harris from the GOP side. I'm
not sure if they are as coordinated as Kamala HQ
or whatever, but I do see a lot of memes
and jokes made about Kamala Harris. Maybe it's just less centralized.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yes, I think they're certainly out there. I think that,
you know, Internet parlance is its own language, and I
think within that language, Trump is just an easier target
because he's just more quotable for better for us, depending
on your perspective. But I also think in the time
that Kamala has been come the nominee her team, I
think at the advice of her team, she's become a
(15:04):
little bit more buttoned up in sort of, you know,
being more careful about offering up quotes like akin to
just thought out the coconut tree. So she has not
given us as much opportunity to you know, make her
go viral. I think even if you look at her
DNC speech, that was very carefully crafted it in my opinion,
so that it would you know, eliminate the possibility of
(15:25):
remarks of hers being turned into TikTok videos.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecouric dot com.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
You think you just fell of a coconut tree?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Do you exist in the.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Context of all in which you live and what came
before you?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Let's talk about those TikTok videos, Molly. Obviously a lot
of people, particularly younger people, are getting their news and
information from TikTok and I know that again, Kamala Harris's
social media team is really exploiting that platform. Do you think, Molly,
that's going to translate into a lot of younger people
(16:31):
going to the polls? What do you think that will
do for the race come election day?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
So that's the ten billion dollar question that we're all
sitting around wondering about because polls are so right.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Landline polling is not what it used to be.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I mean, does anyone here even have a landline? Do
you have a landline?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Nope, I don't.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Either, So there we go. So landline polling is not
as useful an indicator as it once was from what
I understanding, Again, I'm not a big TikTok user, but
from what I understand, there's a lot Harris has a
lot of virality on TikTok with young people. The campaigns
I've talked to, when I've talked to a lot of
campaigns said that as she swapped over to her in July,
(17:14):
that the enthusiasm was enormous.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
She raised a.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Billion dollars, right, and that was that's a lot of money,
and it's the most ever in three months. So I
think that. And then the voter registration is a first
time voter registration was spurred on by that people. You
had people, you know, singers and Taylor Swift. That was
who I was thinking of, actually, people like Taylor Swift.
(17:39):
And she she drove Gonzo numbers for voter registration. So again,
who knows, but it was all seemed like very good
indicators to me. The polls again are tight. The trajectory though,
has been largely good. She has opened the map in
states that were not in play under Joe Biden, like
(18:01):
North Carolina and Georgia, and there's a real feeling especially
in North Carolina with so one of the things that
has happened in North Carolina and Florida, Lessardston and Georgia.
Is that because of inflation, because of climate change. The
insurance has become crazy high in Florida and North Carolina
(18:22):
flood insurance in some places, they don't do it, government
has to do it. It's a gazillion dollars. And so
there is a sense that that is from climate change
and that perhaps voters will in fact that is a
part of inflation. That really could be, That could be
really a that could be very good for Harris.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, I'm motivating for Harris and Evan. What do you
think do you think that these social media clips and
various things that are being posted will have an impact?
You know, maybe Trump doesn't have Kamala HQ, but again,
I've seen a ton of pro Trump things and things
making fun of Kamala. As I said, less organized perhaps,
(19:09):
but certainly out there in a big way. What impact
do you think all of this is having on young voters.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Well, it's interesting you say that because recently Kamala was
on the cover of Vogue and I went to the
comment section of Vogue's Instagram account and it is just
a ton of pro Trump, pro vance rhetoric on there,
which is a great example to your point of the
fact that like there, despite the fact that you have
accounts like Kamala HQ, there is a ton of support
for Trump on social media. You I think it has impact.
(19:36):
I mean that is the million dollar question. I think
that it doctrinates hope and as evidence in Kamala's messaging
and during Barack Obama's campaign years ago, you really can't
undervalue hope, right. I think to dismiss the idea that
hope is a powerful weapon is, you know, a misguided
sort of attempt. But is it going to make a
(19:57):
significant change. Who's to say. But I have to believe
it can. And so I think I lean on that
hope to sort of be the driving force that it's
posting things like memes or viral clips, gets people talking,
and I like to believe I am choosing to believe
that that conversation is going to whether it be an
uncommitted voter or whether it be a first time voter,
(20:17):
or whether it be a former Trumper who's on the
fence about voting your him, I choose to believe that
it makes a difference.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
How many of those comments you'd think are bots.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I always try to look and I look at the profile,
and oftentimes they have zero followers and they're following a
few people, and it's really hard to determine. My team
will always is saying, especially if people say nasty things
to me, Oh those are bots?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Are they? That's a great question. I to click on
the profiles themselves. I think it's hard to really know,
That's the thing. But if you're simply going, let's say
they are bots, right, let's say one hundred percent of
them are bots. If you're someone like me and you're
going in the comment section and all you're seeing is Trump, Trump, Trump,
TROMP Trump and you don't know that they're or even
if you do, Liller Box, it's still in that moment
(21:02):
is like, wow, where is the Kamala support? You know,
I couldn't help that be my takeaway from the Vogue
comment section. So again, even if they are bots, it's
effective in the fact that it leaves you thinking I
left the comment section of Vogue being like, Wow, I'm
not feeling great about this, you know, So I think that, Yeah,
I still think it's powerful even if it is Box Sadly.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, I think you and I are probably some of
the few people who read comments on Instagram, but I'm
fascinated by them, and I read them on other people's
account because I want to hear what people are saying
and what they are thinking. But I'm curious what you
both think about Kamala's choices Harris's choices. Someone said you
shouldn't be Kamala versus Trump, you should be Harris versus Trump.
(21:45):
That it's gendered to say Kamala. But what do you
think of Vice President Harris's choices? In terms of media interviews,
she was getting a lot of blowback for not doing
interviews and now she is. But the interviews she's doing
are not mainstream anchors. You know, it's now Lesterhole, David Muir,
nomra O'Donnell. Yes, she did sixty minutes, and we'll talk
(22:07):
about that in a moment, but that was really and
the view I think, which has become sort of appointment
viewing for anybody for appointment, I guess, an appointment of appearance.
What would that be for anybody running for office? But
you know, the call her Daddy with Alex Cooper, who's
got millions, especially young women listening to her podcast Howard Stern.
(22:30):
That wasn't that surprising? And our team was talking about
the fact that Hillary Clinton said she regretted not doing
Howard Stern before twenty sixteen, and then she's done a
lot of other podcasts, some local media, et cetera, et cetera.
What do you think of that and what do you
think it says about the media today, Molly. I mean,
(22:50):
if I were a network anchor, I'd be pulling my
hair out and going a little crazy.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
And in fact they are, well, look, you know it's
my siloed media, right, and you want to meet the
voters where they are, and they happen to be at
call her daddy, right. Five million, up to ten million women,
a lot of independence, a lot of Republicans. Those are
(23:16):
people who are not watching CBS News, right. Those are
people who are not They're not There's no world in
which they are going to be turning on the tvn
I think that is really what she's doing. And she's
trying to go to where the voters are. Now do
I think they should go? I think they should do
more of that, right, I think they should go if
(23:37):
they want to win, like go on theovon right. Tell
me if you think that's crazy, Evan, but go on
theo Von. This is the guy who I just recently
learned about who has a very insane mullet.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Other than his mullet, tell me more.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I think you got to go to Evan on this.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
No, I'll be honest with you. I had never heard
of him until this interview, so I think it did
a great service for people like me. I'm a pop
culture chronic layer, but he's not right on my radar whatsoever,
and now he is as a result of this, So
it was a very mutually beneficial interview for both of them.
And to your point, Katie, I think there are a
lot of people who had never uttered the phrase call
her daddy until this appearance. So it ends up benefiting
(24:17):
this new media ecosystem because there are lots of people
that are going to say, I enjoyed this interview that
Alex Cooper did with Kamala. I'm going to listen to
more call her Daddy, whether or not the audience will
be satiated by what they hear. Hard to say, but
like this is a backscratching on both sides. And also
the numbers are there. I mean That's the other thing
is like these are they're there, Like the people who
(24:38):
listen to Joe Rogan do not listen to any other
mainstream news. I mean that may not be.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Completely true, but I think a lot of them he
is their trusted messenger.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Well why wouldn't Tim You know, I had this conversation
with Ezra Kline a couple of weeks ago, you guys,
and I'm curious, why wouldn't Tim Walls go on Joe Rogan?
Why wouldn't he go on all these sports radio podcasts
and newscasts or whatever to appeal to more male voters,
because they are having a nand problem of particularly a
(25:13):
young man problem, particularly young men of color problem.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Today, I texted Tim Walls and said, you should go
on Joe Rogan. I literally did. I was like, you
should go on Joe Rogan, go on Joe Rogan, go on.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And did he text you back?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yes, And I said, let Walls be Walls, and he
said that maybe that's some of the problems, but yeah,
I mean I think they're doing that.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
He was just on, wait, Molly, you have a texting
relationship with Tim Walls.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Us. I interviewed him and I was like, you guys,
this guy's good.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Now.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Of course, by the way, if she loses Pennsylvania, I
will have been completely wrong. So I'm trying not you know,
because if if she if Shapiro would have meant winning Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Who knows. But uh, yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I interviewed him and thought, this guy he was the door,
he's the uh, he's the was the head of the governors,
the Democratic Governors Association. So I'd interviewed him before, and
he was famous for having passed a lot of progressive legislation,
not so different than Pennsylvania, but free school lunches, free
school breakfasts, a lot of stuff for kids that was
(26:27):
very exciting to me. And so when I interviewed him,
I thought he was a folksy guy who would be
really good for this.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Why do you think, Evan, that Tim Walls isn't sort
of everywhere? Do you think they're nervous to let Tim
be Tim?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I mean I would be to an extent in that.
So for me, if you would have asked me this
question before the VP debate, I would have been, like,
sent him anywhere he can be. He's a huge important
figure for us to, you know, as someone to go
out there and disseminate the messages of Kamala Harris. But
I think after that debate performance and the stumbling nature
of it, I would be nervous in a situation like
(27:05):
Joe Rogan, who Joe Rogan is an interviewer who has
an agenda despite the fact that he might not say
as such, and there are going to be some gotcha
questions in there. And I think if Walls proved anything
in that VP debate, despite the fact that he got
very lucky by having an eleventh hour Hail Mary, I
think that there are possibilities of him being walked into
giving answers that are going to go against the ticket
(27:26):
and potentially become viral talking points that work against Kabala.
So while I do think he should go on Joe Rogan,
I understand the weariness from the campaign.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
What do you think, Molly, I mean, you know Tim Walls.
Are you surprised that he kind of whiffed on a
couple of questions during the debate? Seemed very nervous, the
weird Tiananmen square thing, I'm a knucklehead. Did you expect
him to be a little more sophisticated in those debates?
And can you think that lack of slickness, if you will,
(27:57):
may actually help him with voters.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well that's that's the twenty four million dollar question, right
is does that actually maybe help him? And again who
it's the great unknown. I did see him today talking
about football with Michael Strahan, so more of that is good.
And they are having him go to football games, which
is great because he is a football coach. He was nervous.
(28:21):
I think that some of what happened there was bad
debate prep, right, because he had all this information and
he only needed to just be authentic and not I mean,
let me just say one thing though, which was they
decided not to fact check, which meant that it was
on him to fact check. And Jade Vance is very
(28:43):
smooth and is a very good talker and does a
lot of media and is you know, can disseminate information
very very quickly. And I think that that got his backup.
Look with the tenement square answer, he should have just
said yeah is wrong and let it go like there
was some stuff just because he's so new at this.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I misspoke and I didn't mean to, and that was
a mistake. Like move on, I agree, less would have
been more.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
And he is. But you have to remember this is
a guy who didn't know how to read a prompt.
They had to teach him how to read the prompter.
So like this is legit. He was a backbencher in Congress,
and then he was a governor of a state that's
not so much on anyone's radar. I mean, we love Minnesota,
don't get me wrong, but you know it's not California.
(29:34):
So he did. He came from really where his vans
had done it pressed to, he had written books, had
been the darling of the.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
You know, I'd done so many interviews that certainly had
a very different persona there during the debate. You know,
he was very pugnacious and difficult for people to interview,
and you know, would throw things back at them. It
was very tricky interviews situation. I thought Dana Bash did
a good job because I was like, good Lord, I
(30:04):
would be I would need some depends or something if
I can.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I add though, just like what I've been most surprised
with in the past few weeks has been the lack
of presence from a lot of the surrogates who really
stood out at the DNC. So thinking about AOC, thinking
about Pete Budha Judge, thinking about Jasmine Crockett. There were
so many huge, clippable moments that came out of the
DNC that I think really excited not only the base
(30:29):
but people that had kind of soured on the Democratic Party,
and I thought there was an opportunity to seize on
that momentum that was formed at the debate. And I've
just been really surprised, I mean, especially with Pete, like
where has Pete been recently? And I know that's probably
no choice of Pete's, but so yes, I think it's
important to have walls out there, but I actually am
sort of disappointed in the lack of other surrogates coming
(30:50):
out and doing things like I'd love to see Pete
Buddha Judge on Joe Rogan.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Right, I would too.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
You know that's interesting because I just interviewed James Carville
about his documentary and about some other things, and actually
at a Google conference as well, and he was just
hop and mad about the fact that they have not
And just actually this week we saw Obama give a
speech in Pittsburgh and talk to campaign headquarters, and he
said Bill Clinton should be making himself available to local
(31:40):
stations in every swing state in the country. Who's going
to turn down an interview with Bill Clinton? Who's going
to turn down an interview with Barack or Michelle Obama
or anybody? And it does seem like they haven't. According
to James, he was criticizing them for simply not being
aggressive enough. What do you think of that assessment moment?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
So, I know Bill Clinton is doing a Southern States tour,
so that is coming up, So that is definitely happening.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
But I mean, what took so long?
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Molli, Well again, yes, I agree, and I actually was
talking to some Yes, agreed.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Oh, go ahead, give us some tea, Mollie.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Okay. The one thing I would say first a Mayor Pete.
Mayor Pete did in fact do something very cool. So
Elon Musk was talking about how he was having trouble
getting into North Carolina and a lot of the lies
about the federal government, and Mayor Pete called Elon and
(32:40):
explained to him about what was happening with the airspace
and Elon was like, oh that makes sense, So good
on Mayor Pete. For I mean, look, Elon is really problematic,
but he is the richest man in the world, and
he does control.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
He has so much influence. How many followers does.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
He have on X you guys, well, it's hard to
know if that follower count is real, but.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
He controls forty or to sixty percent of all the satellites.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
That's real.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
I mean that's a big fucking deal. Like that guy,
you know, communication, and I mean he can so I
do think that was a really cool thing. But yes,
they should and Mayor Pete and Tim Walls. Tim was
on Fox News last week on the Sunday Show.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Write more of that.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Put them on Fox. I mean, put them on everything.
You can get them on, right, put everyone on everything.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Pete is brilliant on Fox, by the way. I mean,
I think he leaves the anchors kind of speechless when
he makes points, and it's actually very interesting to watch
the dynamics of that. I wanted to ask you about
the line by the Trump campaign because Molly he wrote
a piece about that, and I think it was particularly evident,
(33:54):
perhaps because it was in a concentrated period of time
during Hurricane Helene and the aftermath. Not to mention, obviously,
what was going on in Springfield, Ohio with Haitian immigrants.
Why do people care? Why do his supporters not care,
or do they not believe he is lying? It's hard
to fathom that nothing, absolutely nothing seems to be moving
(34:18):
the needle. There doesn't seem to be any respect for
the truth anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
The thing that I'm struck by is that there was
so much gentility at one point, right we had you
would have people like John McCain who would say, you know,
he's not a Muslim, right.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Is stopping a woman in the crowd who was criticizing
that is such an incredible piece of video. Evan, I
don't know if you've seen that. You should watch John
McCain chastising gently a woman in a campaign crowd for
yelling that Barack Obama is a Muslim. He said, he's
a fine American. You just would never see that. Today,
(34:57):
I got to ask.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
You a question. I do not believe in. I can't
trust Obama.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I have read about him, and he's not He's not
he's a he's an Arab. He is not no no,
no man, no man.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
He's a He's a He's a decent family man, citizen
that I just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental
issues and that's what this campaign is all about.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
He's not thank you, thank you. Yes, you would never
see it from Trump and his people, Right, it's the
opposite of MAGA. If MAGA loses, I could see a
world where these people start saying, you know, I never
supported it. I was a McCain person. I mean, you know,
success has a thousand fathers, failure none. Right, So I
(35:47):
do think that that if that happens, which again is
not a feed of compley, I think that. Yeah. The
part of it is that they trust Trump more than
they trust other things, including their friends and family, and
so Trump can say something is true, and even if
it's not true, they will still believe it to be true,
(36:08):
or they will believe it to be close enough that
they will follow it. I mean, the answer is to
have more content modernation. Right, if they didn't see on
Facebook things that weren't true, if they didn't see on
X or on TikTok, if they saw stuff where it
said you know. I mean one of the good things
about X is they have community notes, so you can
(36:30):
see when Marjorie Taylor Green says they can control the weather,
it has fifteen community notes on it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I don't think it's the media's fault. But no, certainly not.
But this bifurcation of the media, this absolute destruction of
traditional media with any gatekeepers, any kind of editing, any
kind of you know, fact checking, has really just as
my father in law says, lifted the lid off the
(36:59):
sewer and completely allowed anyone to say whatever they want.
And then I think it becomes very tribal and people
just listen to what they want to listen to that
confirms their point of view. So I don't know how
to fix this. Is there any way you say content moderation?
I mean, is the genie out of the bottle in
(37:20):
your view?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Evan hmmm, yes. But I also feel like, so it's
a different ballgame that has to be played now, but
we have to be willing to still play the game.
So I think, though I don't have the solution necessarily,
I think that we have to stay activated and say
motivated and find ways to say yes if we don't
have content moderation, for instance, if we have you know,
(37:43):
whatever Elon Musk is running sites like Twitter, how can
we take the how can we find and take the
best from it? Because as I said earlier, I'm still
extracting information from Twitter. I still find it very valuable.
There are still reputable news organizations on Twitter putting out
reputable news. So it's not as though these places are
entirely sewers. You know, there's things to be found from them.
(38:05):
What we need is people that are able to find
the best aspects of these and extract them and disseminate
them to an audience willing to hear them. But again, too,
you don't want to get into this situation where you're
speaking into echo chambers. Right the most important voters right
now are the undecided, are the ones who have valuable opinions,
And so I think part of the worry that I have,
(38:25):
even with a platform like mine, is that I'm speaking
to the people who already have their minds made up.
So I think there needs to be more willingness from
people to dignify those undecided voters. But I see a
lot of right now from people that I follow, is
shitting on undecided voters and being like these idiots, How
could you not be convinced with everything that we've seen
that Kama is the right candidate. And while I understand
(38:48):
that mentality, that is not a helpful mentality and indoctrinating
these undecided voters to make a decision. And so I
think we need to be more respectful on social media
of those who are still weighing their options and say,
you know what, I hear you. I hear that you
don't have your mind made up. And here's why I
think that I can be effective in helping convince you.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Mollie, can you describe the undecided voter today? Because I
hate to be one of those people who doesn't understand
how anybody could be undecided at this juncture, but it
does seem remarkable that there are actually people out there
who don't see this as the clear decision or have
(39:27):
not been pain attention enough to at least have an
inklaim of who they're going to vote for.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
So it's a lot of people who don't follow politics right.
And if you have, you know, if you're a working
mom with kids and a very crazy full time job,
and you maybe are a single mom and you just
don't have time for television and you're you know what,
maybe you're a nurse, or I join me in this
(39:56):
fantasy of the nurse, single mom with all these kids
and no time.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
To read the newspaper.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
I mean, I think there are people who don't pay
attention to politics or don't remember Trump is them, or
people who are very affected by inflation and things being
more expensive. And for them, they just see that even
though everyone's telling the economy is good, they can't afford
the number of groceries they could a year ago. Now
(40:24):
it wouldn't be a year ago because inflation has actually
gone down, but that would be my in my head.
Those are the voters who the Trump is saying. And
remember Trump is promising a lot of stuff. I mean,
he basically just promises everything all the time. So you know,
he went to Nevada and he promised no more taxes
on tips. Now of course I mean more complicated. But
(40:46):
and then he went to he went to Michigan yesterday
in Detroit, he chat, he said terrible things about Detroit
to Detroit. And then he also promised that he would
make car loans tax deductible. Now, there is no world
in which depreciating asset like a car should have a
tax deductible loan. And you would have to grow the
irs to do this. And the Republican Party is very
(41:08):
mad at the irs and does not want to grow
the irs. So but you know, if you're a voter
who's taking in very little of this and you're very
you know, you're pinched and you're mad and you're worried,
I could see how you might. And remember historically people
have thought Republicans were better in the economy. I don't know,
that's my fantasy of what the the the borderline voter is.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
By the way, Kamala also supports no tax on tips, right.
She followed She followed Trump's lead on that.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
If you're someone that hears these Trump policies, which really
has pointed out are kind of just fantasies. But if
you hear him, you know, making these promises and you
believe them to be true. If you're on the other
side of that and try to go to this Trump
voter and say, you know, everything he's promising is a lie,
that's not an effective tool. I feel in changing their mind.
They're going to say this is he's the man whose
beliefs I idealize, and I think he is the best
(42:03):
for me. So there's a smugness that I think some
of the supporters of Kamala can have in sort of
trying to educate these Trump voters by enlightening them. And
so again I think it's really important in our tone
and how we speak to those undecided or even those
Trump voters, in helping them realize that what they've been
promised is indeed a lie. But I think it's all
about how we go about, you know, bursting that lie,
(42:25):
because again, I think sometimes that can just cause those
supporters to dig in their heels and say, well, you know,
I'm going to double down on my belief system because
I don't want to be I don't want this smug
tone telling you that I'm wrong. Yeah, So I'm just
curious what are your thoughts on sort of the viability
of celebrity endorsements. Obviously, you know we have the big
ticket ones, the Taylor Swift's, the Bruce Springsteen. But you know,
as we saw, there's been a ton of interest around
(42:47):
Child Arrowan for instance, and whether or not she was
coming out in supporting Kabala. She eventually was, I would
say it forced to come out and support of Kamala.
When you think about this sort of pressure that's grown,
this expectation that's especially young stars are expected to not
only have their vote luck but also let their fans
know who they're voting for and actually quote unquote endorse
(43:08):
a candidate.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
You know, Julia Roberts was in Georgia campaigning for Harris.
I think it's I mean, look, certainly, Taylor Swift moves
the needle, I think, because you can't look at those
numbers and not think she moves the needle. And she
had you know, these are women who this is an
election all about reproductive rights, so that makes sense. These
(43:30):
are women of reproductive age, right, I mean, that's one
of the things that would tailor. And we saw this
with call Her Daddy. She also said she was struggling,
she didn't want to get involved in the election, but
she has all of these women who listen to her.
Who are you know, they talked about sexual violence during
the interview with Vice President Harris. It was very focused
(43:52):
on like the problems of young women. So I do
think that that is important. And look, you know, we
talk about celebrity culture so much, and a lot of
these celebrities are very you know, these young women are
very connected to women's issues, and so I do think
in that way, it certainly makes a lot of sense.
And actors don't want to get into politics, but another
(44:15):
Trump administration will mean things. I mean I was thinking about,
you know, a Project twenty twenty five. I actually did
a YouTube series on it. There's a lot of stuff
about like ending pornography, right, like there won't be porn
right this fine? Maybe fine, you know, but that's like
Americans don't like that, and it will mean a whole
industry will go away. And will that mean that like
(44:37):
movies won't have new today and will movies have to
be checked by people? I mean it's a real Christian,
kind of fundamentalist view in Project twenty twenty five. So
like it will affect performers, like if a performer wants
to perform in a bra like Madonna, they may not
be able to do that anymore. I mean, this really
(44:58):
is if they're able to an ad Project twenty ninety five,
I mean, it's going to mean.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
A new tentacles are long and affects so many aspects
of American life. I just wanted to throw in this
idea if there could be a backlash to celebrity endorsements,
because celebrities do represent the elite, if you will, and
if they might be considered too much part and parcel
(45:26):
with sort of the one percent, that there's so much
anger and angst among people who are struggling to pay
the bills, and with you know, grocery store prices, et cetera.
Even if they are going down, they're still high. If
that might turn people off more than excite them, it might.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
But I feel, like, you know, celebrity is not a monolith,
and so I think that there's a difference between a
Jennifer Gardner and a Chapel Rowan. And to your point
about this idea that people have that celebrities are the
one percent. Again, some celebrities like Julia Roberts, sure, yes,
But Chappelowan, who's been famous for like what ten minutes,
I don't think she's a billionaire. I don't think she's
on the verge of you know, well I shouldn't say
(46:07):
I'm the virgin. She's perhaps on her ascent up to
the one percent. But I think part of the appeal
of someone like chaper Roan is the idea of her
being the every person. And so I actually think, sure,
in some instances it can work against, but I also
think equally so there's a fact ship celebrity who it
can work for. So again, not a monolith. Some I
find more effective than others. And also as someone who
(46:28):
you know, chronicles pop culture, I like seeing when my
fave comes out and gets a little political understanding that
it's going to be off putting for some. I think
you roll the dice. Some people are going to love
you for it. Some people are gonna hate it. They're
going to love you if you do speak up, they're
going to love you if you don't. It's sort of
you have to sort of have some sort of integrity
and say this is what's important to me, and whether
that be speaking out for staying silent. Well, that's a
(46:49):
great way to end our conversation. Bye, Molly, I know
you got to go. It's been so fun talking to you, Evan.
If you want to say a do bit ad to Mollie. Yes, Molly,
thank you so much. This was a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Thank you both for having me so much.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Thank you guys, Evan, it was so fun doing this
with you. Did you have a good time.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
I had such a good time. I always had a
good time with you, Katie.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
I mean con I mean, I feel like there's so
much to discuss. I feel like you and I are.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Row the topic my way, and I will I will say.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Well, you and I need to have a cock deal
or something and really get into it.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
It is such a fascinating time. And how are you
feeling about the election? I think people are getting increasingly
nervous as it gets closer and closer because the polls
believe them or not. So the race is so so tight.
How do you think it's going to go?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, well, I mean I would go back to hope
as sort of being my pervasive emotion at the moment
because I choose that I'm anxious. Yes, I was anxious
in twenty twenty, I was anxious in twenty sixteen and
twenty twelve, et cetera. I think it's very normal to
be anxious in times like these, as well as the
fact that there are other anxieties that one can have
at the moment with everything going on in the world,
(48:03):
from global disasters to you know, a wars rampant. So
I yes, anxiety is certainly in the motion that I feel.
But I feel a lot of excitement and I feel
hopeful about the prospect of change that Kambala brings about.
I'm still energized from the DNC debate by seeing all
of these young Democrats emerging that I think could potentially
be viable nominees for us in the future. Again, I
(48:26):
will say, you know, Pete Aoc, Jasmine Crockett, et cetera.
I think that there is an energy that no matter
the outcome of this election, I am energized by the
possibility of the Democratic Party moving forward. And I did
not feel that prior to the DNC, and so I'm
not quite over the power that I think the first
three nights in particular of the DNC had on changing
(48:47):
the conversation for the Democrats. I think that was a
really powerful moment. I read a piece this morning.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
I think it was inn Pup that Washington is just
not ready for the possibility of a Trump president tenancy.
Are you prepared for that?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I'm not sure how one can be prepared for it,
But I think the thing, if we're being really honest here,
we've done it before. I know this is not something
that people want to hear, but like, we experienced four
years of a Trump presidency, so it's not unprecedented territory
we would be going into. In a sense, I realize
times are different and there are policies that he's put forward,
that we're not a part of the messaging from four
(49:25):
years ago. But to say that we have no these
are unchartered waters is simply untrue. So though I am
not prepared for it, we do have a precedent to
look at. And obviously it was I can only speak
for myself. It was a horrible time to be in.
So I am preparing myself for it, but also not
saying that I have no idea what it will be like.
I am hopeful if Trump becomes the president that the
(49:47):
other two levers of power will go the Democratic way
and will essentially block the policies that he would want
to put forward. So for me, if we're not going
to get the presidency, it's equally important to have our
eye on retaining that Senate majority and keeping the House.
So that to me is sort of where if I
move my hope from the presidency, I move it over
to the other.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Two levers of power. I'll have what you're having. Thank you,
Thank you, Evan ross Katz, Thank you so much. This
was so much fun. And I'll see you soon, I hope,
I hope. So thanks for listening everyone. If you have
(50:27):
a question for me, a subject you want us to cover,
or you want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
short message at six oh nine five P one two
five five oh five, or you can send me a
DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.
Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
(50:50):
The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz.
Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are
Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music.
For more information about today's episode, or to sign up
for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description
(51:11):
in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com.
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favorite shows.
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.
You know, I have been covering elections since Reagan and
Carter back in nineteen eighty. Yes, everyone, I am that old.
And to say that the way a campaign is run,
(00:24):
the way a campaign is covered has changed dramatically, well
that is a massive understatement. Social media and internet culture
has been a driving force of Donald Trump's campaigns. Let
us not forget his late night tweeting and now Kamala
with her massive digital team overseeing her TikTok and Instagram account.
(00:45):
So I really wanted to have a conversation to understand
how the various platforms are informing voters and what impact
they'll have. And there's no one better equipped to help
guide this conversation than cultural commentator internet aficionado Evan ross Katz. Evan, Hey,
thank you for being my date today.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh my god, Katie, I will always be your plus
one when called upon.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Well we should probably. I think some of my listeners
might not be familiar with your work. Evan, How would
you describe yourself and what you do? I would say
I am a pop culture chronicler. So Katie, thanks largely
to you. Actually, thanks entirely to you.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Mike White deemed me at the most valuable hype man
in TV history, which is literally going to permanently go
in my bio.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
And of course Mike White is the writer, creator, director
of White Lotus. And we should just talk very briefly
before we bring Molly in about how you and I
got to know each other. I mean, I kind of
made you what you are today, Evan.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
You did you did you? I credit you with all
of my quote unquook success is all through the pipeline
of Dittye girk Well to explain, please, So you had
me on one of your We did a live show together.
I think this was like what two years ago now, time.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Really does fly right at City Winery.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yes, and you surprised me with a video from Mike Way,
which is when he gave me, you know, deemed me
the super fan that I am. And then from there
I formed a friendship with Mike and now I'm involved
in some facet of the White Loatus that I can't
quite yet announce, but it has led to you know,
exciting professional opportunities for me via Mike Waite.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Wow. That is awesome, Hi, Molly. So we might as well, say,
Hi'm Molly John Fast, who is our guest today. Molly
is an MSNBC political analyst, host of the Fast Politics podcast.
She's a Vanity Fair Special correspondent. She wears many hats,
but today she's wearing the hat as our guest of
(02:45):
next question. Molly John Fast and Evan ross Katz. I
don't know. It just seems to fit together, doesn't it, Mollie.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Three names for the when right?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, let's talk about internet culture, because that's something that
Evan is uniquely familiar with and I think is actually
in some ways responsible for certain aspects of it. And you,
Molly started a series on Instagram called Internet Stuff. When
(03:14):
did you decide to start sharing tweets and memes you
stumble upon?
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Oh, that's a really interesting question that no one has
ever asked me about it. So so much of my
life is this obsession, and it's a question I ask
people all the time, and I'm curious to hear both
of your answers of it too. I hope were this
country three hundred plus million people really like three hundred
and thirty million people. That is a humongous country, and
(03:40):
only like ten million people read the newspaper right, two million,
three million watch cable news four or five, six, maybe
as many as seven watch you know, regular news. So
where is everyone getting all of their news from? And
I have become obsessed with this idea, like where are
(04:00):
people getting their news from?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Where?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
And as Twitter AX has become less and less useful
because again there's no algorithm. And I'm curious what you
both think of this, because there's no algorithmic transparency on
any of these sides. So we don't know why some
things do well and other things don't do well right right,
And we don't know why, you know, the algorithm likes
(04:26):
a certain picture and doesn't like another picture when it
comes to Instagram, or why a tweet gets a gazillion
retweets and not another tweet. So my question was always
like why are you seeing what you're seeing? And as
X got less and less good, I became more and
more obsessed with the idea of just at least getting
(04:47):
something out there right. And that's why I started posting
that kind of stuff on Instagram, not because I particularly think,
I mean, in my own personal life, I don't know
that text on Instagram does anything good for me, But
I became. So you know, one of the things that
I think has really not served me this election cycle
is that I truly believe everything I'm saying. So I
(05:09):
truly believe that Donald Trump is an existential threat to
American democracy and that if this election, you know, if
Trump gets re elected, that we are all going to
be living in a world that is hard to really fathom.
And so I have been you know, I actually really
really and again this is something you're sort of not
(05:29):
supposed to be as a journalist, but I am on
the opinion side. I genuinely am just anxious about getting
content out there so that people can see. And you know,
one of the great people who is often on Morning
Joe and sometimes with me is the guy who does
the charts this amazing Steve Ratner. Hello Steve Ratner, and
(05:50):
Steve Ratner just gets the information out there. And part
of me wonders, like, how much can we just try
to get the information in front of people? And so
that's why I started doing it, just out of sheer
anxiety that perhaps another person will see a bit of
news that will then galvanize them to vote.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And Evan, how did you become a pop culture chronicler
on social media and why were you drawn to that
just as Molly is trying to disseminate information because she's
in a constant state of anxiety. Yes, basically, but your
kind of obsession with the internet culture predates this election.
Tell us how you got sucked into it?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
So similar to MOLLI like Twitter obviously is a very
different platform now it doesn't even have that name anymore,
but I still like to use Twitter to like extract information.
I still find it to be a valuable place to
learn about pop culture. I would also agree with Mollie
where I don't really trust the likes on Twitter anymore.
So even though Twitter will tell me this post has
gone viral, I'm not always so sure about that, and
(06:54):
I think it actually leads to about the dissemination of
in fact misinformation. But to answer your question, I think
for me in the beginning, it was very organic. There
were things that I was drawn to that I didn't
see people talking about enough, and I thought, you know,
at that time, I had a very small platform. But
for me, it was just about like wanting to recommend
things to my friends, wanting to get eyeballs, and things
that I found interesting. I also found that in this
(07:17):
media landscape where there is so much out there. I mean,
we're talking about politics today, but the Internet encompasses sports,
there's fashion, there's entertainment, there's there's so many conversations happening
on the Internet that I found the idea of distilling
it to be something that was really valuable for people.
And so I said earlier that I liked to think
I'm a pop culture chronicler, but I'm alsto trying my
best to distill the information that I think audiences should
(07:39):
be hearing about, because even in the entertainment landscape, there's
just so much content out there. So it's important for
some people to have that, you know, sort of shrunk
in as much as possible and shown to them in
fits and starts.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
You weren't always focused on politics. In fact, you're kind
of late to the political arena, Evan. But I would
venture to say, Mollie and Evan, that this is the
first truly social media election. Yes, we had Donald Trump
tweeting wildly in twenty sixteen, and we've had obviously social
(08:17):
media gaining significant round. More people get their news from
digital devices than linear television now. But I feel like
the Kamala Harris team really gets it. Would you agree
with that? I mean, Kamala Harris has two hundred and
fifty people working on her digital team, and they're doing
a really phenomenal job. They have been on things almost
(08:41):
immediately we talk about, you know, the brat moment this summer,
we talked about, you know, the coconut tree stuff that
actually was used to her advantage. Mollie, when you look
at the whole political landscape, are you surprised at how
much social media has really taken over this campaign cycle?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
No, and you're right about the team. They have done
amazing staff. I actually was there the other day doing
little interviews with them in Wilmington, which is not close
to anything. In case you're.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Wondering why are they I mean, I know that's where
Joe Biden is. Is that just where they set up
shops and they have moved to New York or Washington?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
I think many of them have that same question. But
they all stayed in Wilmington, Delaware. So if you want
a sitcom.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
That must have been fascinating.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I mean I was like, you, guys, what is it
like being some of them have been there for as
much as two years, a year and change, like a
year and two months. They said there's a lot of
hiking trails. It was a pretty it was pretty bleak. So, yes,
this is the first social media election. I would say
(09:54):
a thing that I think about a lot is that
tech companies, after or bankrupting local news, right after pretty
much taking apart our media ecosystem, have given up on
content moderation and you know, any kind of fact checking.
So now we sort of gave we gave over the keys,
(10:20):
and they have decided they're going to keyr Car. So
in my mind, I'm a little salty about that. I'm
going to be honest and a little bit mad at them.
And I don't quite understand there's so much disinformation. I mean,
Elon Musk has already said a million different ways, including
(10:41):
jumping up and down in Pennsylvania, that he is actively
working for Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So there's that, and that he's willing to spend one
hundred and forty million dollars to make sure that he's selected.
I just read that.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yeah, I mean that for for Elon is a rounding error,
but you know, certainly he wants and I mean I
have to wonder how much of Elon's ambitions for Trump
have to do with AI and the future of AI
and not having any regulation there. I mean, one of
the ways in which the American government on the left
(11:15):
and the right has just completely fucked up beyond recognition
is they decided not to ever do any regulation when
it comes to technology or social media. So you have
CBS is not allowed to be owned by you know,
there are all sorts of rules for CBS, right, all
sorts of rules for NBC New York Times, and then
(11:35):
Twitter whatever, Instagram sure, largest social media platform owned by
the Chinese government.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Like, what are we doing?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Man?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
What? I'm sorry, That's all I have to say.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
What do you think, Evan about sort of the takeover
by social media of the political realm and just talk
about how you've seen this campaign on phone on your phone.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So I would push back at the idea of this
being like the first social media election. I do think
this took place in twenty sixteen as well. I think
the big difference would be the level of engagement from
the campaigns themselves, because I do think people were very
active on social media in twenty sixteen, and the candidates
were as well, But there was a different way in
which they were speaking to the platform at that time.
(12:23):
So that's a big difference.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, I guess. I mean that they've taken full advantage
of social media and almost it feels like to me,
as someone who's covered these elections for a while, it
feels like a social media first strategy in some ways.
And of course maybe that's because I don't watch that
much television and I'm on my phone and this is
where I'm getting the messaging.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
But go on. Yeah, and I often feel like you
can watch television by going on social media because people
are clipping out the moments that you need to see.
So in essence, we are watching television even though we
aren't going to the platform itself. But what I see
is the big difference with something like Kamala HQ, for instance,
is that they're able to actually post clips of the
opposing party, like the opposing ticket, and make them look dumb.
(13:08):
And that is something that I think is unique. If
you go to Kamala Harris's Instagram page, you're not going
to see clips of Trump looking stupid in an interview,
but on Kamala HQ you will. There are some key moments,
for instance, jd Vance at the donut shop looking like
an idiot that is not going to be posted on
Kamala's account, that the HQ account can seize on that moment,
(13:28):
a moment that has so much virality potential and actually
use the Kamala HQ account to disseminate a video like
that that wouldn't have a home elsewhere. So there's an
own ability to being able to dunk on someone like
Trump that Kamala HQ has seized on. And interestingly, on
the inverse side, Trump does not have a form of
(13:48):
Trump HQ. So what that ended up being was the
attempt of that was sort of the original. There was
some account that that was the one that first put
out the Kamala coconut video up going viral. How was
their attempt to sort of create the Kamala HQ narrative
on their side, But it ends up backfiring and people
just ended up loving it. And then Kamala HQ came
(14:10):
grabbed that clip and said no, this is actually wonderful
and people bought that. So I feel like the Republican
Party has not been able to find the counterpoint to
Kamala HQ.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
It's a really good point, av'd said that, I've seen
a lot of posts and a lot of videos making
fun or mocking Kamala Harris from the GOP side. I'm
not sure if they are as coordinated as Kamala HQ
or whatever, but I do see a lot of memes
and jokes made about Kamala Harris. Maybe it's just less centralized.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yes, I think they're certainly out there. I think that,
you know, Internet parlance is its own language, and I
think within that language, Trump is just an easier target
because he's just more quotable for better for us, depending
on your perspective. But I also think in the time
that Kamala has been come the nominee her team, I
think at the advice of her team, she's become a
(15:04):
little bit more buttoned up in sort of, you know,
being more careful about offering up quotes like akin to
just thought out the coconut tree. So she has not
given us as much opportunity to you know, make her
go viral. I think even if you look at her
DNC speech, that was very carefully crafted it in my opinion,
so that it would you know, eliminate the possibility of
(15:25):
remarks of hers being turned into TikTok videos.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecouric dot com.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
You think you just fell of a coconut tree?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Do you exist in the.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Context of all in which you live and what came
before you?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Let's talk about those TikTok videos, Molly. Obviously a lot
of people, particularly younger people, are getting their news and
information from TikTok and I know that again, Kamala Harris's
social media team is really exploiting that platform. Do you think, Molly,
that's going to translate into a lot of younger people
(16:31):
going to the polls? What do you think that will
do for the race come election day?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
So that's the ten billion dollar question that we're all
sitting around wondering about because polls are so right.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Landline polling is not what it used to be.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I mean, does anyone here even have a landline? Do
you have a landline?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Nope, I don't.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Either, So there we go. So landline polling is not
as useful an indicator as it once was from what
I understanding, Again, I'm not a big TikTok user, but
from what I understand, there's a lot Harris has a
lot of virality on TikTok with young people. The campaigns
I've talked to, when I've talked to a lot of
campaigns said that as she swapped over to her in July,
(17:14):
that the enthusiasm was enormous.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
She raised a.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Billion dollars, right, and that was that's a lot of money,
and it's the most ever in three months. So I
think that. And then the voter registration is a first
time voter registration was spurred on by that people. You
had people, you know, singers and Taylor Swift. That was
who I was thinking of, actually, people like Taylor Swift.
(17:39):
And she she drove Gonzo numbers for voter registration. So again,
who knows, but it was all seemed like very good
indicators to me. The polls again are tight. The trajectory though,
has been largely good. She has opened the map in
states that were not in play under Joe Biden, like
(18:01):
North Carolina and Georgia, and there's a real feeling especially
in North Carolina with so one of the things that
has happened in North Carolina and Florida, Lessardston and Georgia.
Is that because of inflation, because of climate change. The
insurance has become crazy high in Florida and North Carolina
(18:22):
flood insurance in some places, they don't do it, government
has to do it. It's a gazillion dollars. And so
there is a sense that that is from climate change
and that perhaps voters will in fact that is a
part of inflation. That really could be, That could be
really a that could be very good for Harris.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, I'm motivating for Harris and Evan. What do you
think do you think that these social media clips and
various things that are being posted will have an impact?
You know, maybe Trump doesn't have Kamala HQ, but again,
I've seen a ton of pro Trump things and things
making fun of Kamala. As I said, less organized perhaps,
(19:09):
but certainly out there in a big way. What impact
do you think all of this is having on young voters.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Well, it's interesting you say that because recently Kamala was
on the cover of Vogue and I went to the
comment section of Vogue's Instagram account and it is just
a ton of pro Trump, pro vance rhetoric on there,
which is a great example to your point of the
fact that like there, despite the fact that you have
accounts like Kamala HQ, there is a ton of support
for Trump on social media. You I think it has impact.
(19:36):
I mean that is the million dollar question. I think
that it doctrinates hope and as evidence in Kamala's messaging
and during Barack Obama's campaign years ago, you really can't
undervalue hope, right. I think to dismiss the idea that
hope is a powerful weapon is, you know, a misguided
sort of attempt. But is it going to make a
(19:57):
significant change. Who's to say. But I have to believe
it can. And so I think I lean on that
hope to sort of be the driving force that it's
posting things like memes or viral clips, gets people talking,
and I like to believe I am choosing to believe
that that conversation is going to whether it be an
uncommitted voter or whether it be a first time voter,
(20:17):
or whether it be a former Trumper who's on the
fence about voting your him, I choose to believe that
it makes a difference.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
How many of those comments you'd think are bots.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I always try to look and I look at the profile,
and oftentimes they have zero followers and they're following a
few people, and it's really hard to determine. My team
will always is saying, especially if people say nasty things
to me, Oh those are bots?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Are they? That's a great question. I to click on
the profiles themselves. I think it's hard to really know,
That's the thing. But if you're simply going, let's say
they are bots, right, let's say one hundred percent of
them are bots. If you're someone like me and you're
going in the comment section and all you're seeing is Trump, Trump, Trump,
TROMP Trump and you don't know that they're or even
if you do, Liller Box, it's still in that moment
(21:02):
is like, wow, where is the Kamala support? You know,
I couldn't help that be my takeaway from the Vogue
comment section. So again, even if they are bots, it's
effective in the fact that it leaves you thinking I
left the comment section of Vogue being like, Wow, I'm
not feeling great about this, you know, So I think that, Yeah,
I still think it's powerful even if it is Box Sadly.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, I think you and I are probably some of
the few people who read comments on Instagram, but I'm
fascinated by them, and I read them on other people's
account because I want to hear what people are saying
and what they are thinking. But I'm curious what you
both think about Kamala's choices Harris's choices. Someone said you
shouldn't be Kamala versus Trump, you should be Harris versus Trump.
(21:45):
That it's gendered to say Kamala. But what do you
think of Vice President Harris's choices? In terms of media interviews,
she was getting a lot of blowback for not doing
interviews and now she is. But the interviews she's doing
are not mainstream anchors. You know, it's now Lesterhole, David Muir,
nomra O'Donnell. Yes, she did sixty minutes, and we'll talk
(22:07):
about that in a moment, but that was really and
the view I think, which has become sort of appointment
viewing for anybody for appointment, I guess, an appointment of appearance.
What would that be for anybody running for office? But
you know, the call her Daddy with Alex Cooper, who's
got millions, especially young women listening to her podcast Howard Stern.
(22:30):
That wasn't that surprising? And our team was talking about
the fact that Hillary Clinton said she regretted not doing
Howard Stern before twenty sixteen, and then she's done a
lot of other podcasts, some local media, et cetera, et cetera.
What do you think of that and what do you
think it says about the media today, Molly. I mean,
(22:50):
if I were a network anchor, I'd be pulling my
hair out and going a little crazy.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
And in fact they are, well, look, you know it's
my siloed media, right, and you want to meet the
voters where they are, and they happen to be at
call her daddy, right. Five million, up to ten million women,
a lot of independence, a lot of Republicans. Those are
(23:16):
people who are not watching CBS News, right. Those are
people who are not They're not There's no world in
which they are going to be turning on the tvn
I think that is really what she's doing. And she's
trying to go to where the voters are. Now do
I think they should go? I think they should do
more of that, right, I think they should go if
(23:37):
they want to win, like go on theovon right. Tell
me if you think that's crazy, Evan, but go on
theo Von. This is the guy who I just recently
learned about who has a very insane mullet.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Other than his mullet, tell me more.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I think you got to go to Evan on this.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
No, I'll be honest with you. I had never heard
of him until this interview, so I think it did
a great service for people like me. I'm a pop
culture chronic layer, but he's not right on my radar whatsoever,
and now he is as a result of this, So
it was a very mutually beneficial interview for both of them.
And to your point, Katie, I think there are a
lot of people who had never uttered the phrase call
her daddy until this appearance. So it ends up benefiting
(24:17):
this new media ecosystem because there are lots of people
that are going to say, I enjoyed this interview that
Alex Cooper did with Kamala. I'm going to listen to
more call her Daddy, whether or not the audience will
be satiated by what they hear. Hard to say, but
like this is a backscratching on both sides. And also
the numbers are there. I mean That's the other thing
is like these are they're there, Like the people who
(24:38):
listen to Joe Rogan do not listen to any other
mainstream news. I mean that may not be.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Completely true, but I think a lot of them he
is their trusted messenger.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Well why wouldn't Tim You know, I had this conversation
with Ezra Kline a couple of weeks ago, you guys,
and I'm curious, why wouldn't Tim Walls go on Joe Rogan?
Why wouldn't he go on all these sports radio podcasts
and newscasts or whatever to appeal to more male voters,
because they are having a nand problem of particularly a
(25:13):
young man problem, particularly young men of color problem.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Today, I texted Tim Walls and said, you should go
on Joe Rogan. I literally did. I was like, you
should go on Joe Rogan, go on Joe Rogan, go on.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And did he text you back?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yes, And I said, let Walls be Walls, and he
said that maybe that's some of the problems, but yeah,
I mean I think they're doing that.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
He was just on, wait, Molly, you have a texting
relationship with Tim Walls.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Us. I interviewed him and I was like, you guys,
this guy's good.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Now.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Of course, by the way, if she loses Pennsylvania, I
will have been completely wrong. So I'm trying not you know,
because if if she if Shapiro would have meant winning Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Who knows. But uh, yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I interviewed him and thought, this guy he was the door,
he's the uh, he's the was the head of the governors,
the Democratic Governors Association. So I'd interviewed him before, and
he was famous for having passed a lot of progressive legislation,
not so different than Pennsylvania, but free school lunches, free
school breakfasts, a lot of stuff for kids that was
(26:27):
very exciting to me. And so when I interviewed him,
I thought he was a folksy guy who would be
really good for this.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Why do you think, Evan, that Tim Walls isn't sort
of everywhere? Do you think they're nervous to let Tim
be Tim?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I mean I would be to an extent in that.
So for me, if you would have asked me this
question before the VP debate, I would have been, like,
sent him anywhere he can be. He's a huge important
figure for us to, you know, as someone to go
out there and disseminate the messages of Kamala Harris. But
I think after that debate performance and the stumbling nature
of it, I would be nervous in a situation like
(27:05):
Joe Rogan, who Joe Rogan is an interviewer who has
an agenda despite the fact that he might not say
as such, and there are going to be some gotcha
questions in there. And I think if Walls proved anything
in that VP debate, despite the fact that he got
very lucky by having an eleventh hour Hail Mary, I
think that there are possibilities of him being walked into
giving answers that are going to go against the ticket
(27:26):
and potentially become viral talking points that work against Kabala.
So while I do think he should go on Joe Rogan,
I understand the weariness from the campaign.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
What do you think, Molly, I mean, you know Tim Walls.
Are you surprised that he kind of whiffed on a
couple of questions during the debate? Seemed very nervous, the
weird Tiananmen square thing, I'm a knucklehead. Did you expect
him to be a little more sophisticated in those debates?
And can you think that lack of slickness, if you will,
(27:57):
may actually help him with voters.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well that's that's the twenty four million dollar question, right
is does that actually maybe help him? And again who
it's the great unknown. I did see him today talking
about football with Michael Strahan, so more of that is good.
And they are having him go to football games, which
is great because he is a football coach. He was nervous.
(28:21):
I think that some of what happened there was bad
debate prep, right, because he had all this information and
he only needed to just be authentic and not I mean,
let me just say one thing though, which was they
decided not to fact check, which meant that it was
on him to fact check. And Jade Vance is very
(28:43):
smooth and is a very good talker and does a
lot of media and is you know, can disseminate information
very very quickly. And I think that that got his backup.
Look with the tenement square answer, he should have just
said yeah is wrong and let it go like there
was some stuff just because he's so new at this.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I misspoke and I didn't mean to, and that was
a mistake. Like move on, I agree, less would have
been more.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
And he is. But you have to remember this is
a guy who didn't know how to read a prompt.
They had to teach him how to read the prompter.
So like this is legit. He was a backbencher in Congress,
and then he was a governor of a state that's
not so much on anyone's radar. I mean, we love Minnesota,
don't get me wrong, but you know it's not California.
(29:34):
So he did. He came from really where his vans
had done it pressed to, he had written books, had
been the darling of the.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
You know, I'd done so many interviews that certainly had
a very different persona there during the debate. You know,
he was very pugnacious and difficult for people to interview,
and you know, would throw things back at them. It
was very tricky interviews situation. I thought Dana Bash did
a good job because I was like, good Lord, I
(30:04):
would be I would need some depends or something if
I can.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I add though, just like what I've been most surprised
with in the past few weeks has been the lack
of presence from a lot of the surrogates who really
stood out at the DNC. So thinking about AOC, thinking
about Pete Budha Judge, thinking about Jasmine Crockett. There were
so many huge, clippable moments that came out of the
DNC that I think really excited not only the base
(30:29):
but people that had kind of soured on the Democratic Party,
and I thought there was an opportunity to seize on
that momentum that was formed at the debate. And I've
just been really surprised, I mean, especially with Pete, like
where has Pete been recently? And I know that's probably
no choice of Pete's, but so yes, I think it's
important to have walls out there, but I actually am
sort of disappointed in the lack of other surrogates coming
(30:50):
out and doing things like I'd love to see Pete
Buddha Judge on Joe Rogan.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Right, I would too.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
You know that's interesting because I just interviewed James Carville
about his documentary and about some other things, and actually
at a Google conference as well, and he was just
hop and mad about the fact that they have not
And just actually this week we saw Obama give a
speech in Pittsburgh and talk to campaign headquarters, and he
said Bill Clinton should be making himself available to local
(31:40):
stations in every swing state in the country. Who's going
to turn down an interview with Bill Clinton? Who's going
to turn down an interview with Barack or Michelle Obama
or anybody? And it does seem like they haven't. According
to James, he was criticizing them for simply not being
aggressive enough. What do you think of that assessment moment?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
So, I know Bill Clinton is doing a Southern States tour,
so that is coming up, So that is definitely happening.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
But I mean, what took so long?
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Molli, Well again, yes, I agree, and I actually was
talking to some Yes, agreed.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Oh, go ahead, give us some tea, Mollie.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Okay. The one thing I would say first a Mayor Pete.
Mayor Pete did in fact do something very cool. So
Elon Musk was talking about how he was having trouble
getting into North Carolina and a lot of the lies
about the federal government, and Mayor Pete called Elon and
(32:40):
explained to him about what was happening with the airspace
and Elon was like, oh that makes sense, So good
on Mayor Pete. For I mean, look, Elon is really problematic,
but he is the richest man in the world, and
he does control.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
He has so much influence. How many followers does.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
He have on X you guys, well, it's hard to
know if that follower count is real, but.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
He controls forty or to sixty percent of all the satellites.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
That's real.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
I mean that's a big fucking deal. Like that guy,
you know, communication, and I mean he can so I
do think that was a really cool thing. But yes,
they should and Mayor Pete and Tim Walls. Tim was
on Fox News last week on the Sunday Show.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Write more of that.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Put them on Fox. I mean, put them on everything.
You can get them on, right, put everyone on everything.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Pete is brilliant on Fox, by the way. I mean,
I think he leaves the anchors kind of speechless when
he makes points, and it's actually very interesting to watch
the dynamics of that. I wanted to ask you about
the line by the Trump campaign because Molly he wrote
a piece about that, and I think it was particularly evident,
(33:54):
perhaps because it was in a concentrated period of time
during Hurricane Helene and the aftermath. Not to mention, obviously,
what was going on in Springfield, Ohio with Haitian immigrants.
Why do people care? Why do his supporters not care,
or do they not believe he is lying? It's hard
to fathom that nothing, absolutely nothing seems to be moving
(34:18):
the needle. There doesn't seem to be any respect for
the truth anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
The thing that I'm struck by is that there was
so much gentility at one point, right we had you
would have people like John McCain who would say, you know,
he's not a Muslim, right.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Is stopping a woman in the crowd who was criticizing
that is such an incredible piece of video. Evan, I
don't know if you've seen that. You should watch John
McCain chastising gently a woman in a campaign crowd for
yelling that Barack Obama is a Muslim. He said, he's
a fine American. You just would never see that. Today,
(34:57):
I got to ask.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
You a question. I do not believe in. I can't
trust Obama.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I have read about him, and he's not He's not
he's a he's an Arab. He is not no no,
no man, no man.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
He's a He's a He's a decent family man, citizen
that I just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental
issues and that's what this campaign is all about.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
He's not thank you, thank you. Yes, you would never
see it from Trump and his people, Right, it's the
opposite of MAGA. If MAGA loses, I could see a
world where these people start saying, you know, I never
supported it. I was a McCain person. I mean, you know,
success has a thousand fathers, failure none. Right, So I
(35:47):
do think that that if that happens, which again is
not a feed of compley, I think that. Yeah. The
part of it is that they trust Trump more than
they trust other things, including their friends and family, and
so Trump can say something is true, and even if
it's not true, they will still believe it to be true,
(36:08):
or they will believe it to be close enough that
they will follow it. I mean, the answer is to
have more content modernation. Right, if they didn't see on
Facebook things that weren't true, if they didn't see on
X or on TikTok, if they saw stuff where it
said you know. I mean one of the good things
about X is they have community notes, so you can
(36:30):
see when Marjorie Taylor Green says they can control the weather,
it has fifteen community notes on it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I don't think it's the media's fault. But no, certainly not.
But this bifurcation of the media, this absolute destruction of
traditional media with any gatekeepers, any kind of editing, any
kind of you know, fact checking, has really just as
my father in law says, lifted the lid off the
(36:59):
sewer and completely allowed anyone to say whatever they want.
And then I think it becomes very tribal and people
just listen to what they want to listen to that
confirms their point of view. So I don't know how
to fix this. Is there any way you say content moderation?
I mean, is the genie out of the bottle in
(37:20):
your view?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Evan hmmm, yes. But I also feel like, so it's
a different ballgame that has to be played now, but
we have to be willing to still play the game.
So I think, though I don't have the solution necessarily,
I think that we have to stay activated and say
motivated and find ways to say yes if we don't
have content moderation, for instance, if we have you know,
(37:43):
whatever Elon Musk is running sites like Twitter, how can
we take the how can we find and take the
best from it? Because as I said earlier, I'm still
extracting information from Twitter. I still find it very valuable.
There are still reputable news organizations on Twitter putting out
reputable news. So it's not as though these places are
entirely sewers. You know, there's things to be found from them.
(38:05):
What we need is people that are able to find
the best aspects of these and extract them and disseminate
them to an audience willing to hear them. But again, too,
you don't want to get into this situation where you're
speaking into echo chambers. Right the most important voters right
now are the undecided, are the ones who have valuable opinions,
And so I think part of the worry that I have,
(38:25):
even with a platform like mine, is that I'm speaking
to the people who already have their minds made up.
So I think there needs to be more willingness from
people to dignify those undecided voters. But I see a
lot of right now from people that I follow, is
shitting on undecided voters and being like these idiots, How
could you not be convinced with everything that we've seen
that Kama is the right candidate. And while I understand
(38:48):
that mentality, that is not a helpful mentality and indoctrinating
these undecided voters to make a decision. And so I
think we need to be more respectful on social media
of those who are still weighing their options and say,
you know what, I hear you. I hear that you
don't have your mind made up. And here's why I
think that I can be effective in helping convince you.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Mollie, can you describe the undecided voter today? Because I
hate to be one of those people who doesn't understand
how anybody could be undecided at this juncture, but it
does seem remarkable that there are actually people out there
who don't see this as the clear decision or have
(39:27):
not been pain attention enough to at least have an
inklaim of who they're going to vote for.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
So it's a lot of people who don't follow politics right.
And if you have, you know, if you're a working
mom with kids and a very crazy full time job,
and you maybe are a single mom and you just
don't have time for television and you're you know what,
maybe you're a nurse, or I join me in this
(39:56):
fantasy of the nurse, single mom with all these kids
and no time.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
To read the newspaper.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
I mean, I think there are people who don't pay
attention to politics or don't remember Trump is them, or
people who are very affected by inflation and things being
more expensive. And for them, they just see that even
though everyone's telling the economy is good, they can't afford
the number of groceries they could a year ago. Now
(40:24):
it wouldn't be a year ago because inflation has actually
gone down, but that would be my in my head.
Those are the voters who the Trump is saying. And
remember Trump is promising a lot of stuff. I mean,
he basically just promises everything all the time. So you know,
he went to Nevada and he promised no more taxes
on tips. Now of course I mean more complicated. But
(40:46):
and then he went to he went to Michigan yesterday
in Detroit, he chat, he said terrible things about Detroit
to Detroit. And then he also promised that he would
make car loans tax deductible. Now, there is no world
in which depreciating asset like a car should have a
tax deductible loan. And you would have to grow the
irs to do this. And the Republican Party is very
(41:08):
mad at the irs and does not want to grow
the irs. So but you know, if you're a voter
who's taking in very little of this and you're very
you know, you're pinched and you're mad and you're worried,
I could see how you might. And remember historically people
have thought Republicans were better in the economy. I don't know,
that's my fantasy of what the the the borderline voter is.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
By the way, Kamala also supports no tax on tips, right.
She followed She followed Trump's lead on that.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
If you're someone that hears these Trump policies, which really
has pointed out are kind of just fantasies. But if
you hear him, you know, making these promises and you
believe them to be true. If you're on the other
side of that and try to go to this Trump
voter and say, you know, everything he's promising is a lie,
that's not an effective tool. I feel in changing their mind.
They're going to say this is he's the man whose
beliefs I idealize, and I think he is the best
(42:03):
for me. So there's a smugness that I think some
of the supporters of Kamala can have in sort of
trying to educate these Trump voters by enlightening them. And
so again I think it's really important in our tone
and how we speak to those undecided or even those
Trump voters, in helping them realize that what they've been
promised is indeed a lie. But I think it's all
about how we go about, you know, bursting that lie,
(42:25):
because again, I think sometimes that can just cause those
supporters to dig in their heels and say, well, you know,
I'm going to double down on my belief system because
I don't want to be I don't want this smug
tone telling you that I'm wrong. Yeah, So I'm just
curious what are your thoughts on sort of the viability
of celebrity endorsements. Obviously, you know we have the big
ticket ones, the Taylor Swift's, the Bruce Springsteen. But you know,
as we saw, there's been a ton of interest around
(42:47):
Child Arrowan for instance, and whether or not she was
coming out in supporting Kabala. She eventually was, I would
say it forced to come out and support of Kamala.
When you think about this sort of pressure that's grown,
this expectation that's especially young stars are expected to not
only have their vote luck but also let their fans
know who they're voting for and actually quote unquote endorse
(43:08):
a candidate.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
You know, Julia Roberts was in Georgia campaigning for Harris.
I think it's I mean, look, certainly, Taylor Swift moves
the needle, I think, because you can't look at those
numbers and not think she moves the needle. And she
had you know, these are women who this is an
election all about reproductive rights, so that makes sense. These
(43:30):
are women of reproductive age, right, I mean, that's one
of the things that would tailor. And we saw this
with call Her Daddy. She also said she was struggling,
she didn't want to get involved in the election, but
she has all of these women who listen to her.
Who are you know, they talked about sexual violence during
the interview with Vice President Harris. It was very focused
(43:52):
on like the problems of young women. So I do
think that that is important. And look, you know, we
talk about celebrity culture so much, and a lot of
these celebrities are very you know, these young women are
very connected to women's issues, and so I do think
in that way, it certainly makes a lot of sense.
And actors don't want to get into politics, but another
(44:15):
Trump administration will mean things. I mean I was thinking about,
you know, a Project twenty twenty five. I actually did
a YouTube series on it. There's a lot of stuff
about like ending pornography, right, like there won't be porn
right this fine? Maybe fine, you know, but that's like
Americans don't like that, and it will mean a whole
industry will go away. And will that mean that like
(44:37):
movies won't have new today and will movies have to
be checked by people? I mean it's a real Christian,
kind of fundamentalist view in Project twenty twenty five. So
like it will affect performers, like if a performer wants
to perform in a bra like Madonna, they may not
be able to do that anymore. I mean, this really
(44:58):
is if they're able to an ad Project twenty ninety five,
I mean, it's going to mean.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
A new tentacles are long and affects so many aspects
of American life. I just wanted to throw in this
idea if there could be a backlash to celebrity endorsements,
because celebrities do represent the elite, if you will, and
if they might be considered too much part and parcel
(45:26):
with sort of the one percent, that there's so much
anger and angst among people who are struggling to pay
the bills, and with you know, grocery store prices, et cetera.
Even if they are going down, they're still high. If
that might turn people off more than excite them, it might.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
But I feel, like, you know, celebrity is not a monolith,
and so I think that there's a difference between a
Jennifer Gardner and a Chapel Rowan. And to your point
about this idea that people have that celebrities are the
one percent. Again, some celebrities like Julia Roberts, sure, yes,
But Chappelowan, who's been famous for like what ten minutes,
I don't think she's a billionaire. I don't think she's
on the verge of you know, well I shouldn't say
(46:07):
I'm the virgin. She's perhaps on her ascent up to
the one percent. But I think part of the appeal
of someone like chaper Roan is the idea of her
being the every person. And so I actually think, sure,
in some instances it can work against, but I also
think equally so there's a fact ship celebrity who it
can work for. So again, not a monolith. Some I
find more effective than others. And also as someone who
(46:28):
you know, chronicles pop culture, I like seeing when my
fave comes out and gets a little political understanding that
it's going to be off putting for some. I think
you roll the dice. Some people are going to love
you for it. Some people are gonna hate it. They're
going to love you if you do speak up, they're
going to love you if you don't. It's sort of
you have to sort of have some sort of integrity
and say this is what's important to me, and whether
that be speaking out for staying silent. Well, that's a
(46:49):
great way to end our conversation. Bye, Molly, I know
you got to go. It's been so fun talking to you, Evan.
If you want to say a do bit ad to Mollie. Yes, Molly,
thank you so much. This was a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Thank you both for having me so much.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Thank you guys, Evan, it was so fun doing this
with you. Did you have a good time.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
I had such a good time. I always had a
good time with you, Katie.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
I mean con I mean, I feel like there's so
much to discuss. I feel like you and I are.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Row the topic my way, and I will I will say.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Well, you and I need to have a cock deal
or something and really get into it.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
It is such a fascinating time. And how are you
feeling about the election? I think people are getting increasingly
nervous as it gets closer and closer because the polls
believe them or not. So the race is so so tight.
How do you think it's going to go?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, well, I mean I would go back to hope
as sort of being my pervasive emotion at the moment
because I choose that I'm anxious. Yes, I was anxious
in twenty twenty, I was anxious in twenty sixteen and
twenty twelve, et cetera. I think it's very normal to
be anxious in times like these, as well as the
fact that there are other anxieties that one can have
at the moment with everything going on in the world,
(48:03):
from global disasters to you know, a wars rampant. So
I yes, anxiety is certainly in the motion that I feel.
But I feel a lot of excitement and I feel
hopeful about the prospect of change that Kambala brings about.
I'm still energized from the DNC debate by seeing all
of these young Democrats emerging that I think could potentially
be viable nominees for us in the future. Again, I
(48:26):
will say, you know, Pete Aoc, Jasmine Crockett, et cetera.
I think that there is an energy that no matter
the outcome of this election, I am energized by the
possibility of the Democratic Party moving forward. And I did
not feel that prior to the DNC, and so I'm
not quite over the power that I think the first
three nights in particular of the DNC had on changing
(48:47):
the conversation for the Democrats. I think that was a
really powerful moment. I read a piece this morning.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
I think it was inn Pup that Washington is just
not ready for the possibility of a Trump president tenancy.
Are you prepared for that?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I'm not sure how one can be prepared for it,
But I think the thing, if we're being really honest here,
we've done it before. I know this is not something
that people want to hear, but like, we experienced four
years of a Trump presidency, so it's not unprecedented territory
we would be going into. In a sense, I realize
times are different and there are policies that he's put forward,
that we're not a part of the messaging from four
(49:25):
years ago. But to say that we have no these
are unchartered waters is simply untrue. So though I am
not prepared for it, we do have a precedent to
look at. And obviously it was I can only speak
for myself. It was a horrible time to be in.
So I am preparing myself for it, but also not
saying that I have no idea what it will be like.
I am hopeful if Trump becomes the president that the
(49:47):
other two levers of power will go the Democratic way
and will essentially block the policies that he would want
to put forward. So for me, if we're not going
to get the presidency, it's equally important to have our
eye on retaining that Senate majority and keeping the House.
So that to me is sort of where if I
move my hope from the presidency, I move it over
to the other.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Two levers of power. I'll have what you're having. Thank you,
Thank you, Evan ross Katz, Thank you so much. This
was so much fun. And I'll see you soon, I hope,
I hope. So thanks for listening everyone. If you have
(50:27):
a question for me, a subject you want us to cover,
or you want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
short message at six oh nine five P one two
five five oh five, or you can send me a
DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.
Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
(50:50):
The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz.
Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are
Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music.
For more information about today's episode, or to sign up
for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description
(51:11):
in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com.
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Host
Katie Couric
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