Wellness Check: ‘Addiction is a spectrum’: Meet the women centering themselves and rewriting the recovery narrative

This episode is presented by Midi Health, a virtual care clinic dedicated to providing expert menopause and perimenopause care to women in midlife.

 

There have been some scary headlines going around about the climbing rates of alcohol use, particularly among women, during the pandemic. One study found that heavy drinking among women increased 41 percent! What’s behind these numbers and how do women find the help they need? On this episode, Katie Couric, Katie invites her friend and award winning broadcast journalist Elizabeth Vargas to co-host and help find some understanding about why women are drinking more than ever, why women drink, and what recovery looks like.. Elizabeth knows about this first hand and wrote about her issues around alcohol, addiction and anxiety in her memoir, Between Breaths: A Memoir of Panic and Addiction. Elizabeth and Katie talk to two women — Khadi Oluwatoyin and Emily Paulson who hit their own rock bottoms and not only found their way out, but also made recovery spaces for people like them — Black Girls Sober Club and the Sober Mome Squad, respectively. Katie and Elizabeth also talk to long-time clinical social worker and interventionist, Dr. Louise Stanger, on how to help someone you love who may be suffering through addiction. If you or anyone you love is struggling with alcohol use, you can call the national drug and alcohol treatment hotline at 1-800-622-HELP (4357).

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next question.
You may not know, but April, along with being the
cruelest month, is alcohol Awareness Month, and it happens to
be a subject I've been wanting to tackle for a
while now because during the pandemic I noticed some pretty
frightening headlines about alcohol use, particularly among women.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Americans are drinking far more than they did in previous years.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Alcohol abuse is surging among women. During the pandemic, women
increased their heavy drinking days by forty one percent.

Speaker 4 (00:35):
More mothers are drinking and it could lead to alcoholism.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
One substance abuse doctor calls it an epidemic in a pandemic.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Before the pandemic, yet we were seeing this rise in
alcoholic use.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
That's doctor Dawn Sugarmant, a clinical psychologist and researcher at
McClain Hospital in Massachusetts and an assistant professor at Harvard
Medical School.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
There used to be this gender gap in rates, and
so you know, in the early eighties, the epidemiological studies
were showing about a five to one ratio between men
and women. That had sort of shrunk in the nineties
to about two to one, and now it's getting close
to one to one with the pandemic. We you know,
it's still sort of early on in the research, but

(01:22):
one study had found overall there was an increase by
fourteen percent in drinking, and that women had a higher
increase at seventeen percent. But that there binge drinking, which
we would say would be about having four or more
drinks in a short couple hour period of time, had
for women had increased forty one percent. So that's quite
a jump.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
So is there something about women that make them more
susceptible to alcohol abuse? Apparently the answer is yes.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Women absorb and metabolize alcohol differently than men. For instance,
women have less total body water, so when they drink,
the alcohol less diluted in their body, so it's more concentrated.
They also have less of an enzyme that breaks down alcohols,
so they don't metabolize it as much. So for a
woman of the same weight as a man who's drinking

(02:13):
the same amount, they're going to have more alcohol in
their system, more concentrated alcohol in their system, and it's
going to stay in there longer. So that makes them
more vulnerable to having the physical negative consequences of alcohol.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
So on today's episode, women and alcohol abuse. We'll talk
to two women who hit rock bottom and not only
found their way out, but made recovery spaces for people
just like them. We'll also hear from an interventionist on
how to help someone you love. But we begin with
my co host for this episode, Elizabeth Vargas, award winning

(02:51):
broadcast journalist, podcaster, and author of Between Breaths, a memoir
of panic and addiction. I'm here with my friend Elizabeth Fargas,
who has experienced what it's like to be a woman
who has a drinking problem and who has come out

(03:14):
the other side. Elizabeth and I've known each other Gosh,
I don't want to say.

Speaker 5 (03:17):
How long, but decades.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
We'll just say for decades. Perhaps our most famous television
appearance is when we were trying to figure out what
the Internet was in nineteen ninety four.

Speaker 4 (03:30):
What is Internet?

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Anyway?

Speaker 5 (03:32):
Internet is that massive computer network, the one that's becoming
really big.

Speaker 4 (03:37):
Now, what do you mean that's big? How does what
do you write to it?

Speaker 5 (03:41):
Like mail?

Speaker 1 (03:41):
No, A lot of people use it and communicate. I
guess they can communicate with NBC writers and producers. Alison,
can you explain what Internet is? It's sort of embarrassing
after all the work we've done, that that is sort
of one of the one of the most.

Speaker 5 (03:56):
Shared the moment every couple of years.

Speaker 6 (03:58):
And yeah, but Elizabeth has not only written about women
and alcohol, she's lived it, as I said, She's done
several hour specials on it.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
And I'm so grateful, actually, Elizabeth, that you've taken time
out of your schedule to really educate me and all
our listeners about this issue, which has become really a
huge problem. And why don't we talk just briefly before
we talked to some other experts, because I feel like

(04:33):
you're an expert yourself. You describe yourself, Elizabeth, as a
high functioning alcoholic, and you were able to hide this
for years, weren't you?

Speaker 5 (04:44):
Yeah? Oh yeah, I mean I had George Stephanoppolis, you know,
interviewed me on Good Morning America about this, and he said,
I have sat next to you for hundreds of hours
of live television at that point, because we co hosted
Good Ring a Maria get Together and even during nine
to eleven many of the specials together. He said, I've
never once ever, ever seen any sign of this issue

(05:08):
in your life, and close girlfriends of mine were like, what, No,
not you The only I really did keep it very,
very hidden, similar to the way I kept my anxiety hidden,
which was what I was self medicating, and it sadly
also kept me in denial because I thought, Oh, I
can't be an alcoholic. I can't be addicted to the substance.

(05:29):
This can't be a problem for me because I don't
look like that. I haven't you know, I'm not homeless,
I'm not jobless, I'm not you know, I'm a mother,
I'm a wife, I'm a network news anchor, I'm all
these things. Therefore, I cannot be an alcoholic. And I
managed to quit, you know, when I got pregnant, Although
the first time I got pregnant it was so hard
to quit. That should have been a massive warning sign

(05:50):
for me. How did you finally come to terms with it?
And how did you finally stop? You know? I didn't
stop after my very worst ex experiences. You know, I
write about this in my book that I had a
very scary experience that sent me to the emergency room.
And it was really the only really true blackout I've
ever had. I wasn't one of those people who blacked

(06:12):
out all the time, but that didn't scare me sober.
I did go to rehab. I went to rehab two
different rehabs. One of them was really really great, one
was not so great. But it wasn't rehab that finally
got me to state to get sober. It was me
quietly finally deciding I can't do this anymore. I can't

(06:33):
lie anymore. I can't hide this anymore. I don't want to.
That's the key. I don't want to. I spend a
lot of time, you know, looking for, as I called it,
door number three. You know, there's got to be another
option here, but I couldn't. There wasn't another option, and
I had to finally sort of come to that decision

(06:54):
all by myself. And I'm so grateful I did well.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
I'm not only proud, so proud of what you've able
to accomplish personally, but your courage in talking about this publicly,
I think has helped so many people because it was
so shrouded and shame and secrecy.

Speaker 5 (07:12):
It's still Katie, it still is and stigma.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
We know.

Speaker 5 (07:15):
I'm on the board of directors for the Partnership and Addiction.
We do a lot of science based research for the
government on this, and we know that stigma is the
singular most important reason people do not seek help. They're
afraid to They're afraid to admit they might have a problem.
They're afraid to admit they need help. They're afraid of
the consequences they will suffer in their personal and professional
lives by making that admission. And only I firmly believe

(07:38):
I mean listen, I was outed when I was in rehab.
It was a deeply painful experience for me. It was excruciating.
But I don't know that I would have written my
book if I hadn't been outed. But my story was
already out there. I thought, well, I might as well
tell my own story since everybody else thinks they know
the whole story. But I deeply believe that more people

(07:59):
talking openly is the best way we can ship away
at the stigma and the shame, because that then we
realized that. And I have never felt lonelier in my
entire life than when I was struggling with alcohol because
I didn't I was too afraid to tell anybody what
was going on. And that's why I wrote my book.

(08:19):
So that you know, people can see some one other
person's story. And there are a lot of great books
out there now, really good books, especially by women talking
about their struggles with alcohol and why they drank. And
those books helped me. They helped me a lot realize
that I'm not alone.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
When Katie Oluwatoyan started her sober journey, she didn't see
herself in any of the recovery spaces she sought out,
from the familiar twelve step route to rehab an outpatient programs,
to online communities.

Speaker 7 (08:52):
I always wondered why I was the only Black person
in those spaces when I know it was just common
sense that black people, people of color go through a
lot of trauma, and it just makes sense that they
too would have popas with alcohol.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Through her own recovery, Katie started something to fill the
void for black women like her. The Sober Black Girls
Club started as a blog, a space for Katie to
share her story. In twenty nineteen, the blog grew into
an online collective, a small support group of black women
who identified with Katie's experience. The pandemic expanded the community

(09:31):
even more with weekly zoom meetings and eventually in person
regional meetups. Today, the Sober Black Girls Club has more
than twelve hundred members. Tell us about your relationship with
alcohol and how it developed. When did you start drinking.
It was later in life, right correct.

Speaker 7 (09:53):
I started drinking when I started college. Honestly, I actually
remember like the first day, literally my dad and my
brother dropped me off, unloaded all my clothes and dorm items.
And as soon as they left or had got like
a knock on the door and it was a fat
fat dude, some fat guy, some fat boy, and literally,

(10:14):
like I remember, we went. We partied that night and
we drank my first time drinking, and it was just amazing,
the relief, the just the looseness, like just be feeling
very loose and feeling very free. It was just a
crazy experience and it was something that I have never
ever experienced before. It was my first time drinking alcohol,
and during that time it was was pretty good.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
I thought it was interesting. And Elizabeth, I know you
read this too, that Katie's background, her Nigerian background. Culturally,
your family, you guys didn't drink a lot, well, most
families don't drink a lot when when the kids. Yeah,
I guess, but you didn't really, you know, it wasn't

(11:00):
part of your culture.

Speaker 4 (11:02):
No, honestly, like not at all.

Speaker 7 (11:05):
For a while, I went to a private school, like
an Irish Catholic private school in New York City, so
it was pretty strict, you know, uniforums, always being disciplined
and on time it was like a different error.

Speaker 4 (11:15):
It was pretty strict.

Speaker 7 (11:16):
And then even when I started attending public school again
just having the parents that I had literally school Monday
through Friday. Then after going to Kuwan classes Saturday, I
was in a Saturday science and math program.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
Sunday was Sunday school.

Speaker 7 (11:32):
It was just NonStop work and order and just activity.
So there was honestly no not even any room, let alone.
My family definitely didn't drink or keep alcohol in the
in the home at all.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
You started drinking just really to party right in college,
which is not that unusual. And when did it go
from drinking social drinking to drinking on a regular basis,
sort of at all hours of the day and not
not in a social setting.

Speaker 4 (12:04):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 7 (12:05):
Okay, So I had graduated law school, just finished graduating
law school, and this is not funny. I can laugh
about it now because I'm in a better place, but
back then, none of this was hilarious or funny and
any type of rank. But I had just graduated law school.
You know, I had my firm, I just signed a
lease in New York City. I had broken up with

(12:25):
my boyfriend. You know, I just was so ready to
start this new chapter in life. However, there was this
thing I had to do. I had to pass the bar.
I had to take it, and I had to pass
the bar. And I remember feeling a lot of pressure
because there was this there was this thing, I don't
want to call this stigma, but there was this thing
that like, black students don't pass the bar on the

(12:47):
first try.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
Now, looking back, when.

Speaker 7 (12:50):
You compare the ratio the amount of black students that
were in my law school, compare them to the right
student the white students. Excuse me, ratio wise, we all
cost and feel at the same time. However, when it's
just like five of us in the class, it kind
of looks and we all fail.

Speaker 4 (13:05):
It kind of looks really really bad. So I had
a lot of pressure.

Speaker 7 (13:08):
For one just being known to be known to being
really smart and intelligent. I had a lot of pressure
on that side. Then I had pressure, and I had
a job, and even though my job wasn't contingent on
passing the bar. I still didn't want to be working
and had not passed the bar, and then the pressure
of being.

Speaker 4 (13:26):
I didn't want to be one of the black students
to fail. I just did it.

Speaker 7 (13:29):
So I started to take medication, and I'm going to
say a lot of caffeine, basically caffeine pills, not even medication,
so like working out pills, caffeine pills, drinking a lot
of coffee. And I was studying literally from like nine
am to like ten pm. However, when you're drinking so

(13:51):
much coffee in the morning, I wasn't able to fall asleep.

Speaker 4 (13:56):
So I was using wine.

Speaker 7 (13:58):
I remember diuscinctively wine and moonshine, you know, because I
was broke clearly studying for the bar, I was using
wine and moonshine to fall asleep.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
I was just guzzling bottles and bottles.

Speaker 7 (14:09):
And that's when it started, literally in the summer of
twenty seventeen, as I was studying for the bar, morning
time caffeine pills and coffee and then nighttime moonshine and wine.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
You had no idea, Katie, that you had a drinking problem, really,
which seems hard for people to wrap their heads around
until you went to a therapist and she basically said,
we have to address this. And I'm curious, were you
just in denial? And I think, Elizabeth, you can probably
speak to this.

Speaker 5 (14:43):
No, I had the same thing, you know. I was like,
what do you mean? I'm what do you mean I've
a drinking problem. It never occurred to me either that
I had a drinking problem, and Katie, I'll be honest,
my doctor didn't think that. He was like, just cut back,
you know, just it's no big deal. I would I
would come in. I don't know if you had the

(15:03):
same experience, but I would come in like, you know, dehydrated.
And it was clearly what the physical effects were of
having had too much alcohol. And nobody said for the
longest time that you have a drinking problem. It's very difficult,
and especially if culturally, as you were just saying, you
grew up in an environment where nobody else was drinking,

(15:24):
it might be it's difficult to actually understand and recognize
that in yourself.

Speaker 7 (15:29):
Honestly, in twenty seventeen, if you would have, even with
a law degree, with so much education, if you would
have said Katie, what does an addiction mean? I'd be like,
what does it mean to have an addiction? What does
adiction look like? I would have said someone houseless on
forty second Street. I had no idea that it was
even scientifically possible for me to have an addiction, especially

(15:54):
to alcohol and drugs. I literally thought that, no, you
know the show Shameless. I thought that addiction was like
white people's problems, And honestly, that's just what I thought.

Speaker 4 (16:06):
It was. Just I thought you had to be houseless.
I thought you had to have a big belly. I thought.

Speaker 7 (16:13):
I sewed so many like physical characteristics of what I
thought like a person suffering from an addiction looked like,
and I said, that's not me. But then, when I
spent the year just living my life, still working, I
realized as I went through jobs, as I went through apartments,
as I went through friends and partners, that I actually

(16:34):
might have a problem, and I had to accept that
alcohol was pretty much a part of that problem.

Speaker 5 (16:42):
Did anybody in your life tell you that otherwise, like
any of your friends or somebody who was seeing what
you were doing to yourself?

Speaker 4 (16:49):
You know, you know, it's actually a really good question.
You know, I.

Speaker 7 (16:51):
Actually, I think that for a long time, everyone just
really knew me as a very you know, a strong,
strong black woman. Excuse me, you know the girl who's
who was? You know, I say what I want, what
I want to I'm smart, I can back it up
with facts. I can I can support myself, I can
support a community. So this is just my attitude because

(17:14):
in all reality, my drinking problem really developed into an
aggressive like personality that I thought at a time was
just me. But it wasn't until I got sober that
I realized, like, oh, this really isn't all me. That
had a lot to do with the alcohol that I
was consuming.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
You know, a lot of my story I can look
at backwards.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Emily Paulson is a sober, working mom of five, but
her drinking began long before she became a mom.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
I used it to cope from a very young age.
But my behavior always mimicked the people around me. You know,
when you're drinking in high school, it's you know, it's
against the rules, and you're already doing something you shouldn't
be doing, but it wasn't out of the ordinary. And
you know, got to college and did some binge drinking.
But again, kind of normalized in college, so it was

(18:06):
always hidden even when it was problematic, and it really,
you know, I drank in my young adult years, and
it was really when I became a mom that I
really started using it to cope. And what was hard
about it is is that I didn't fit the mold.
If I if I googled, you know, I'm I an alcoholic,

(18:27):
which I did many times, I couldn't check all the
I couldn't answer all the questions like I couldn't check
yes and all the questions. You know, I didn't grow
up with alcoholic parents. I could stop because I stopped,
you know, five times for five pregnancies, nine months at
a time. So I thought, no, it's it's not a problem.

(18:49):
And it wasn't that something bad happened every time I drank.
But anytime I did, you know, get in a really
big fight with my husband or send a text message
I didn't want to and or feel ashamed about something,
alcohol was always the common denominator. And I think being
pregnant so many times back to back really kept it

(19:09):
at bay. And when really was when my last child
was born, it was kind of like all bets were
off and my drinking really escalated. But again I was
looking around me, and you know, other moms drank, and
you know, it was kind of a joke. It was this, uh,
you know, that's what moms need to do. W Yeah,

(19:33):
I mean you whine, I whine, right, All those jokes
that really normalized something that I deep down really felt
was a problem, and I just didn't want to admit it.
I didn't want to look at it further. And I
would always say, but I haven't you know, this hasn't
happened yet. I haven't I haven't gotten in trouble with

(19:53):
a law I haven't you know, all of these things
I thought should happen, these rock bottom things, and I
really didn't have a place to go. I think that's
one thing along the way now looking back, that I
wish there was a place for people who were questioning
who who again couldn't check all those boxes, who hadn't
had all those rock bottom consequences. Because eventually, then when

(20:15):
I did well, then I fit Then I was knocking
on the door of AA and I fit right in
because I'd had the DUI, and I'd been in the hospital,
and I had marriage problems in all of these things,
but I can look back and see that I had
nowhere to go for a really long time.

Speaker 5 (20:31):
There's a saying that the people who take the alcohol
quizzes are because they're taking the alcohol quiz they have
an alcohol problem, you.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
Know, like it should just be a pop up, but
you google that like yes, go.

Speaker 5 (20:42):
Yeah, yeah, help me. If you don't have an alcohol problem,
you're not online taking a quiz or taking the quiz
in the back of Cosmo magazine when they used to
have that. And all these movements that have popped up
that are sober curious or just you know, opening this
discussion and dialogue about your lifelationship with alcohol. I don't

(21:02):
remember seeing any of these before I got sober, you know,
which was, you know, several years ago now, But it
seems like we've had a lot more of these movements
pop up since then, and I often wonder, you know,
maybe I would have stopped sooner or managed it better
sooner if I had been able to be in a
room with a bunch of other women who were talking.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
About this right, Because I think there is a point where,
once you're using it to cope, I think there's a
point where there's a point of no return. Right, Like
you can't unpickle a cucumber if you're aware. It's like
there's not enough informed consent out there to know, Hey,
this could happen. This is an addictive substance and you
could get addicted to it. You don't have to check
all these boxes, you don't have to hit some proverbial

(21:45):
rock bottom. It's just And it's not a moral thing
around drinking or not drinking. It's just, hey, maybe maybe
you should know these things about this substance so that
you can make informed choices. And it's funny, Elizabeth. I
don't know if it's funny is the right word, but
it's It reminds me because your book came out after
I had been hospitalized for I had taken sleeping pills

(22:08):
and champagne, and I was in the hospital and I
was still at the point. I remember reading your book
and having to put it away because I was still
at the point where I was reading things just to
prove to myself that I wasn't bad enough to quit.
And as I was reading your book, I'm like, uh, oh,
uh oh, this is resonating, and I wasn't ready to

(22:33):
face it until again it was you know, January of
twenty seventeen, when I finally got sober, and and I
think it was I think it was something you said about,
you know, loving your kids so much that.

Speaker 5 (22:47):
I would die for them.

Speaker 8 (22:49):
I would do I couldn't.

Speaker 5 (22:50):
Yeah, I would die for my kids, but I couldn't
stop drinking for them, yep.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
And I don't think anybody ever put that into words.
And like, I'd had so much at that point, how
could I keep doing this to my kids? And it
was like, like I someone else kids it Yeah, no, yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (23:10):
Don't know about you, but when I'm in the rooms
of recovery even today, it's the moms who are in
the rooms who feel like they I know from my
personal experience that the deepest reservoirs of shame for me
surround the fact that I was a mother who drank,
you know, not just that I was a woman who drank,

(23:31):
because there's that too, Like somehow it seems somehow okayer
for a man to be drunk or tipsy, but not
for a woman. But it's even less okay.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
For a mother to well, there's so much pressure and
there's so much in society about the bad mother, right
and judging yourself against those standards. I was telling Elizabeth
during my short lived talk show, I had someone on
and I was, I think, in retrospect, kind of judgmental

(24:07):
about this trend to have wine boxes like that. You know,
we give our kids juice boxes, but there were wine
boxes or doing like while the kids were on playdates,
the moms were drinking wine. And I remember saying, gosh,
that sounds kind of dangerous and is that really a

(24:28):
good idea? And I got a lot of pushback from
people in the audience but also from people on my
staff that I was kind of being holier than thou
about these women and these hard working moms who had
the right to relax and be, you know, connect over
a glass or two or three of wine.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
You know, it's funny because if you say, there's so
many things that are demonized, right like from the time
you give birth. It's like breastfeeding or formula feeding or
you know, rice cereal or not like all of these things.
And so I think just being a mom, it comes
with this shame in this judgment, and I think we're
just waiting to come back and just be like, hey,
don't tell me I can't do that thing. Look how

(25:12):
hard I work. Look how difficult this is. I deserve
this thing. And when you really look at it, and
you look at the marketing around it, and you look
at the messages were being sent, why is that a
necessary thing? Why do we need to drink at ten
am at a play date? Which, again, all these things
are things that I did. I don't say this as
a judgment. It's in looking back that I realized, Gosh,

(25:36):
I remember going on a cleanse and demonizing sugar and
gluten and dairy, but I never took out alcohol. Why
aren't we talking about this?

Speaker 4 (25:46):
Bye? Remember googling sobriety groups.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Again, Katie Aluatoyan, and.

Speaker 7 (25:52):
I remember the first one that popped up was a
twelve step twelve step traditional meeting. I went to my
face meeting and it was really really far from where
I lived, and at that time I was really down bad.

Speaker 4 (26:06):
In other words, I was in a bad place. I
didn't have a car.

Speaker 7 (26:10):
I had to take public transportation everywhere I went, Uber's buses, train, subways,
et cetera. And I remember I had to travel about
an hour and a half to the nearest twelve step
meeting at that time, and when I went, I was
the only black person there. And at first that didn't
really ring alarms because the truth is, in a lot

(26:31):
of spaces that I were in up to that point,
I was pretty much one of the only few black
persons and a lot of spaces that I was a
part of in high school and college, in law school,
so it didn't really bother me too much. But I
remember when it was a speaker's meeting, and I remember
the speaker telling her story of how, you know, she

(26:51):
got into addiction, and when she was talking about her
time and addiction she was, she had basically said, for
lack of better words, that life was so horrible. I
was living in this neighborhood and the neighborhood that she
said was my neighborhood, and the way she talked about
my neighborhood was just in such an awful way. But
the truth is, there's nothing wrong with my neighborhood, just

(27:14):
this fact that it's just not white.

Speaker 4 (27:17):
There's absolutely nothing wrong.

Speaker 7 (27:19):
With my neighborhood. I live in one of the safest
bows that you could live in New York City. Yes,
it's like somewhat segregated where we have one, you know,
the North Shore. It was just pretty much multicultural Black Asians,
Spanish folks, and then you have the South Shore, which
is more white folks, and that's where the meeting was at.

Speaker 4 (27:36):
But there was nothing wrong with my with my neighborhood.

Speaker 7 (27:39):
So after that, I was like, absolutely not, and I
just didn't attend that meeting anymore and I started to
I joined Instagram, I remember, and I started to you know,
be involved with the Instagram community. However, that community was
also white, and it wasn't a problem that there were
that it was a white community. Problem with the Instagram

(28:00):
recovery community at that time was that it was painting
a one sided picture of addiction and recovery at that time.
Sobriety was this thing where you know, you do yoga
and udrink coffee and you're doing this and everything was
just so bright and pink and cheery, and at that time,
I was it.

Speaker 4 (28:17):
Was such a dark place. I was in such a
dark place. Excuse me.

Speaker 7 (28:20):
I was in a bad place and I just couldn't
understand like what was going on. And that's what, you know,
encouraged me to create my blog. But the first two
things that I did that didn't work was definitely a
top stop traditional program and then just trying to get
into this holistic lifestyle in the beginning. It didn't work
because I actually needed professional help.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
It wasn't enough that I was doing yoga and drinking
coffee and.

Speaker 7 (28:45):
Saying that, like, you know, like sobriety is just this amazing,
great thing. I actually needed a professional to help me
with the physical part of my addiction.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
I wanted to ask you, Elizabeth about this, because I
know AA is inclusive, anybody can come, it's open to all,
and yet I find it fascinating that implicit bias can
creep into a twelve step program and the things that

(29:20):
made it hard for Katie to get there, you know,
public transportation where it was located, despite the fact that
they want to be open to all, in some ways,
can make it unwelcoming for people of color.

Speaker 5 (29:34):
I find that so interesting. Yeah, you know, my experience
is that, first of all, Katie's right. In most twelve
step AA meetings have gone to it is mostly white people.
There have been a couple of meetings where there has
been only one black person. One person of color. Depends

(29:56):
on how you defend you know, defined person of color.
I I you know, I learned and heard early on
that you know, try another meeting. There are some meetings
that you go into in certain parts of Manhattan where
I live, where you know, it's I don't fit in
with that group. Is as much. There are meetings for
every sort of demographic. There are meetings that cater to

(30:19):
LGBTQ communities. There are meetings that are women's meetings. There
are meetings that are men's meetings. There are meetings that
are grittier, and meetings that are very you know, high
society problems dominating. To put it kindly, it's basically it's
group therapy where people can get into a room and

(30:41):
you know, bear their souls and and hear about other
people's struggles and triumphs, and you know, it is really
I have found great comfort in it. I will also
say I didn't like it at first, but I think
that had more to do with I didn't like having
to call myself an alcoholic. I didn't like having to
deal with the fact that I had a drinking part.
I didn't want someone to take away my crutch. I

(31:02):
wanted door number three, like, you know, where's door number three? Please?
And I spent a couple of years like banging around
looking for door number three before figuring out there wasn't one.
And so everybody comes to sobriety and acceptance of your
disease of alcoholism if you want to, you know, accept
that it's a disease or whatever however you define it.

(31:25):
But it's you have to accept that first. You can't
be in denial. I was in denial for a long time,
and I, you know, to my detriment because sort of
like you, as you were just saying at the beginning,
drinking was lovely and great. I've defined my quote unquote
career of drinking in three stages, magic, medicine, and misery.

(31:47):
And it was magical at first because it worked, and
then it was medicinal because I needed it in order
to get through. And then it was miserable in the end.
And it's amazing how long a person will stay in
the miserable stage, you know, and refuse to take that
enormous step of admitting you need help and seeking that out.

Speaker 7 (32:09):
It's difficult, I if I may at first, So I
love the threems. That's like amazing in a perfect way
to even describe my drinking history.

Speaker 4 (32:18):
I also want to say at the time that I
was trying.

Speaker 7 (32:20):
I did attend my first twelve step meetings, and then
eventually later on in my sobriety, I started to still
attend them for fellowship. However, I knew that this was
knock going. I wasn't going to do the steps. I
didn't want to sponsor. I was just there for fellowship
at one point in a different meeting with more people
of color from various different backgrounds and religious beliefs. But

(32:41):
I will say that at the time that I did
try my first twelve step meeting, there was this thing
of like outside issue. So they might have had like
a women's meeting, and they might have had this meeting,
but they didn't have meetings for people of color. And
even in the meetings that it wasn't until George Floyd.
It's what funny, which I think is extremely embarrassing because

(33:04):
it's so obvious. How if you can accept that women
and experiences that we face as women can play a
role in out of trauma, how can you not think
that being black or being of color will play some
type of role in the trauma that black people face.
But at the time when I did my Phase twelve
step meeting, I couldn't talk about anything that involved me

(33:27):
being black, and that to me was just a big
red flag because who is this who is this rule protecting?

Speaker 4 (33:34):
You know, who is this role aiming to heal? Clearly
not me.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
The day I actually stopped was very It was a
very normal day for Emily.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Even admitting she had a drinking problem. Took a series
of rock bottom moments.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
You know, I'd had the DUI, I'd had been in
the hospital several times.

Speaker 4 (33:59):
You know.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
Really helped was after I got a duy, I had
to do classes, you know, court mandated classes, and I
had a breathalyzer put in my car, which is just
I mean, there's there's a whole thing that goes along
with that, like giving the third grade teacher a ride
on the field trip, like that conversation you just don't
think about having when you're getting behind the wheel, right,

(34:22):
So when I had to get the breathalyzer, it really
opened my eyes to how much I had been drinking,
even though even though I knew it was like, Wow,
I couldn't drink and I couldn't drive the car if
I drank. So if I was going out to dinner,
it's like, oh, okay, I can't drink here. Oh I
can't drink here. I can't drink here and go to

(34:43):
the book club. Oh, I can't drink because I can't
drive my car. And then there were times when I
would drink and then not be able to start the
car in the morning to take my kids to school
because there was still alcohol in my system. And it
was so confronting. That part of it was. And then
the conversations I had to.

Speaker 5 (35:00):
With my kids.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
You know, my kids were young, but my oldest two
were ten and eleven once I got the DUI and
had the breathalyzer put in, and their questions were like
they were so simple, and yet I never talked about it.
I'd never had to answer those questions like, hey, you know,
why if you have to drink or if you have
to drive home, why did they serve alcohol at restaurants?
And I'm like, that's a really good question, and I've

(35:24):
never had to answer that before. And it was really like, hey,
you know, if you've got in trouble for it, why
are you still drinking? And that to me was like, oh,
I don't know, Like I don't know, And I was
still in that trying to fit that square peg in
that round hole and making this thing work because I
just thought it'd be easier to be a person who drinks.

(35:46):
And you know, I woke up on New Year's Day
and again I just got We've gone out to dinner
with friends. It wasn't a rager. We just drank till
midnight and then went home. And I had blacked out
like an entire weekend of my life. And blackouts were
becoming much more frequent, but this was so confronting because
I had blacked out, like, you know, things I had

(36:09):
done with my kids over the weekend. I had just
I'd missed so much of my life. And I heard
my husband downstairs with the kids, and I'd already been
in the hospital. I'd already you know, been in trouble
with the law, like I was losing everything, and it
was just so like It's like I could hear my
life going on without me, and I could hear what

(36:30):
that I was just like eliminating myself from my life.
And that was finally the point where I just called
the one person I know who I knew at the time,
who was in AA and I'm like, tell me what
to do, tell me what to do? I like, if
I drink again, I just think, like, I think this

(36:52):
is going to kill me. And I started going to
AA and just at that point, it was just unraveling
how I had gotten to that point, and how it
had been so hard to stop. Even all of those
red flags, those rock bottom things were not enough to
make me stop, you know.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Scary when we come back, how Katie and Emily built
recovery spaces that fit their needs and the needs of
their communities. So you saw this huge vacuum, clearly, Katie,

(37:33):
that wasn't being filled, and you decided to start the
Sober Black Girls Club.

Speaker 7 (37:41):
Honestly, when I think back to twenty eighteen, that's when
I created a SPGC, and it wasn't a collective at
that time. I just created it, you know, as a
blog to hold myself accountable. And when you fast forward
to now, when the pandemic hit, that's when a flock,
a huge flock of women started to meet emails and
dms basically saying that they think they have a drinking problem,

(38:05):
but they weren't too short. And it reminded me of
my time in twenty seventeen when I was studying for
the bar. You know, all that stillness that I had
by myself.

Speaker 4 (38:16):
I wasn't you know, I was in a.

Speaker 7 (38:17):
Library, locked into the cubicle, studying, studying. It was in
those moments of isolation that I really only had two
things that I consider my friend's coffee and my caffeine
pills and then a bottle, you know. And I can
understand that these women who are so used to doing
ten thousand things at one time are now in the
moments of stillness, and they don't know what to do

(38:39):
with it now, and what is the easiest thing to do,
especially when you haven't really been paying attention to your
mental health, you haven't really been paying attention to your hobbies.
What it is it that you truly like to do.
Your life has been about your kids. It has been
about going to school, It has been about raising you know,
doing two jobs at once. The easiest thing to do

(39:00):
to be to the bottle.

Speaker 5 (39:01):
Yeah, we've seen that. We've seen that in the pandemic,
especially with women that more than men, they've been impacted
by mental health challenges, anxiety and depression and self medicating
that anxiety depression. Drinking has been off the charts among
women in the pandemic. Much more so than men. And
the isolation you were just talking about, which is, you know,
thank God. Can you imaginef this pandemic hit before we

(39:23):
had Zoom, before we had an ability to connect at
least online. I don't know what a lot of these
I don't know how people in recovery would have navigated that,
But I'm not surprised that you started hearing from so
many women because they had nowhere else to turn and
dealing with the isolation and the responsibility which we know
falls mainly on the women's shoulders any family when it

(39:48):
comes to childcare and that sort of thing. We had
kids going to you know, zoom school in the other room,
or sometimes all in the same room. It was such
an enormous challenge for women during this pandemic, and so
many of them we know statistically, have have turned to
alcohol as a result.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
I'm interested, though, in narrowing the focus to black women,
because I think women in general, as Elizabeth points out,
were really affected by the pandemic and alcohol abuse increased dramatically.
But can you talk about what women of color, black

(40:24):
women who you heard from, some of the specific issues
they were dealing with, Because I just found it so
interesting the added pressure you felt Katie as a black
woman even before the pandemic, and perhaps exacerbated during the pandemic.

Speaker 7 (40:41):
I think one of the main problems that affects black
women and particularly is that we think that the outlet
to our trauma, but whiless if it's cultural trauma, racial trauma,
any type of trauma is either plas or producing. So

(41:02):
there's this stereotype that, no, this is statistic, it's not stereotype.
It's actually true that Black women are the most educated
group demographic in terms of degrees higher education degrees or
degrees in America. At what costs do folks think that
that's true? You know, that is costing us our sleep,
our health, our.

Speaker 4 (41:25):
Enjoyment, our hobbies.

Speaker 7 (41:27):
It's costing us so much, and we do feel that
we have to overcompensate in regards to the negative stereotypes
that are plaguing that are plaguing society. Some of the
stereotypes that I'm thinking that black people are lazy, that
we're crazy.

Speaker 4 (41:45):
There's all these stereotypes that we don't want to adhere to.

Speaker 7 (41:49):
We don't want to show, even if it means that
we deny our own selves, our humanity. I've never ever
ever seen until I created a blacks club, or even
heard of of a woman becoming addicted to anything. I've
never seen it. I didn't hear about it, but it
doesn't mean that it wasn't happening.

Speaker 4 (42:08):
It does happen.

Speaker 7 (42:09):
However, we just keep it a secret because we feel
like we're going to be labeled as crazy or lazy,
or it's going to be used. It's going to be
mentioned or used against us as some type of excuse.
And also in regards to men in households, I think
this is also another statistic that black women generally make

(42:29):
more or the breadwinners of the household.

Speaker 4 (42:32):
At what cost?

Speaker 7 (42:33):
At what expense? Do folks actually think we like going
out and working NonStop?

Speaker 4 (42:39):
No, we don't.

Speaker 7 (42:41):
It's just a lot of pressure in regards to always producing, producing, producing,
And when the pandemic hit and there was probably you
couldn't really produce much. We couldn't go to the gym,
you know, a lot of our jobs was shut down
for a period of time. Then what they be turned
to pleasure. It's usually just production or pleasure. If we're
not producing, then we looked to pleasure to release ourselves.

Speaker 4 (43:04):
And what was that that was alcohol? And I think
that that was basically a generic story that I was
constantly hearing.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
How were other black women reacting to what you were doing?
And an ability for them to voice some of these
pressures and concerns and forces that were making them more
predisposed to abusing alcohol.

Speaker 7 (43:29):
I think first, like, something that I do constantly hear
is I don't even know what I like. I don't
even know who I am. I don't even know what
is it that I wanted to be, you know, I
didn't I don't know who I am as a person.
You know, a lot of the women that I meet
through the club know who they are as a mother,
as they who they are as a wife, who they

(43:51):
are as a student. But when all that was taken
away during the pandemic, they couldn't they couldn't define themselves
for themselves.

Speaker 4 (43:59):
And that was definitely a common thing that.

Speaker 7 (44:03):
Created honesty the experience, especially on Thursday group.

Speaker 4 (44:07):
I know, folks think that I know.

Speaker 7 (44:09):
There's this misconception that SBGC all we do is talk
about race. I'm done talking about race. I'm gonna be
very honest. You know, I stopped doing a lot of
interviews and podcasts about race and recovery realm because I'm tired.
I want to help women, I want to help myself,
get back to the basics and literally find out what
makes us us as individuals, and then use that information

(44:34):
in a community, collective forward way.

Speaker 4 (44:38):
That is really the goal of SBGC. I'm so I'm
really tired of.

Speaker 7 (44:43):
The race talk, and not because it's not necessary or
needed or because it's not true, because I don't think.

Speaker 4 (44:50):
It helps black women.

Speaker 7 (44:51):
I think it helps the society as a whole try
to understand race relations.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
But again, why is that on the back of black women.
It just it was like.

Speaker 7 (45:00):
Everything when it comes to community, especially the black community,
is on for the black women. You know, even when
I created a s PGC, I had men telling me
that I needed to create one for them, because the
truth is, I think that the black men's plight is
its specific plate. However, patriarchy has been a you know,

(45:21):
a theme in my trauma. I'm not creating anything for you.
You have to do it yourself. I can help you,
but that's not something I'm trying to take on. I'm
actually trying to learn how to not take on other
people's problems and focus on myself as an individual, because
when I focus on myself, I'm focusing.

Speaker 4 (45:37):
And helping my community.

Speaker 7 (45:39):
And I also think it's important to note that black
people do not have a long history of mental health treatment.
Like you know, for a long time, we were seen
as objects. And it's crazy to me that I found
out that even in the eighteen hundreds, when this nation
was going through the Tempest movement, when this nation had

(46:00):
decided that alcohol was negatively affecting the society, that they
purposefully left black people out. Racism is prevalent in every
aspect of this nation, including recovery, and it's embarrassing and
wrong for anyone to think that all recovery is equal.

(46:21):
Even when I went to rehab, and I did go
to rehab, it was my first time there and a
lot of this and I was the only black person
there and a lot of them this was their third
fourth time. And is that judgment no, because I think
I think most people do need a second time to
go to rehab. The first time, you don't know what
you're doing.

Speaker 5 (46:37):
Yeah, statistically, yeah, that's that's true. Most people have to
try several times. It's I think this an amateur three
or four or five attempts before you get sober.

Speaker 7 (46:45):
Yeah, and in rehab, you know, constantly hearing about families
who had say, similar issues, families of getting treatment and
figuring out recovery and being in recovery.

Speaker 4 (46:57):
That's not a clipical to black folks.

Speaker 7 (47:00):
Really, this generation, the millennials, are finally saying enough is enough.
We're getting back into nature where fis, We're taking care
of our mental health. We're trying to understand our parents
problems because they didn't take care of their mental health.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
They had their own issues.

Speaker 7 (47:17):
That involved their race, that involved their gender and their
sexual oritation, and that looked totally different. So our meetings
provide us connection. We have to make connection to all
these points. It's not enough to say I have a
drinking problem and I need to find myself. I need
to understand that. Why after I went to college, I

(47:37):
did gymnastics, you know, told me you know, you know,
I did that, homosexuality, I dated a man, I went
to law school. Why am I still miserable after doing
all these things?

Speaker 4 (47:49):
And why?

Speaker 7 (47:50):
Because I kept them putting my self worth into tangible items.

Speaker 4 (47:55):
I kept them putting it, I kept them listening to
what people told me to do. Who are these people?
Who did my parents want me to listen to white folks.
That's something that we all try to please.

Speaker 7 (48:07):
We try to not be that that, you know, we try,
we live our lives, try not to be that one
that black person. We want to be trophies. We want
people to know that we're trying so hard and we're
trying to do. That's pressure and that does affect and
contribute to our self esteem and how I see myself.
I'm happy that I went to law school. I do
like luxury things. I do like to have money. However,

(48:30):
I want to be okay with just being Katie, even
with those things. I don't want my worth to be
based on those on those things. So I feel like
our meetings are it's not only about getting to know
who we are. It's really understanding our history. It's it's
knowing that slaves did have were, you know, given alcohol

(48:53):
to keep them domicile. It's knowing that for the Tempest movement,
black people were not a part of it. They had
to make their own type of movement, you know. It's
it's knowing what the society and what the racism and
sexism and and you know, even as a queer person,
homophobia that I grew up so homophobic, and I grew
up very anti black, even myself perpetuating these these.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
Things and not even knowing and understanding it.

Speaker 7 (49:19):
How do theseisms play a role and how I see
myself and other people.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
Emily talk about Sober Mom Squad, which you started during
the pandemic. Was this to fill the need that you
felt wasn't there when you were googling? Am I an alcoholic?

Speaker 4 (49:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (49:40):
I mean it was a couple of things. So I
was working as a as a recovery coach at the time,
and I was working really one on one with women
who who had similar stories to me, who you know,
really tried to control it for a really long time
and then hit rock bottom and they were either they're
you know, coming out of rehab, going to AA, you know,

(50:01):
really just to supplement you know, people's other recovery modalities.
And once you know it is just a couple of
weeks in the pandemic and all the kids were home,
I started getting messages from moms saying, you know, I
never questioned my drinking before, and now I'm drinking a
lot more and it's scaring me or my kids are
noticing me drink now and I don't know how you know,

(50:25):
that line of demarcation from coming home from work and
having that quiet time in the car, like you don't
have any downtime. So women were using alcohol really as
again as a coping mechanism, and you know, hey, can
can you help? Can you work with me? And meanwhile,
I'm home also working with my five kids with no
extra time, wondering what the heck I'm going to do?

(50:45):
And so I just honestly put out a call to
action on on social media, you know, and said, is
this with other you know, recovery coaches, counselors, is this
what you're seeing? Does anyone want to help do something?
And you know a few other women in the recovery
space we're like, yeah, i'll help, I'll help, I'll help.
And we started having just a free meeting every Wednesday,

(51:07):
and the only requirements were, you know, if your mom
and you're questioning your use of alcohol, or if you're
just a mom who doesn't want to be in the
sea of women telling you to go pour your quarantine,
or you know, all these wine messages were really strong
at this point. You know it takes a god, what

(51:28):
was my favorite one? It takes a glass of wine
to have a kid, and it takes a vineyard to
homeschool one or something like all of these messages.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
And also, you know, Elizabeth was mentioning the other day
like what businesses were thriving.

Speaker 5 (51:43):
It's like, we're still open.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
It was the grocery store, the drug store, and the
liquor store. Yeah, and everyone knows the essential service. I'm
almost sort of laughing about that, but it's a it's
a big red flag.

Speaker 5 (51:54):
Isn't it.

Speaker 9 (51:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Well, and the biggest growth in twenty twenty and alcohol
was single served drinks because because it was easily accessible,
and if you're at the pharmacy and you're getting your
bleach and your hand sanitizer and all the other things
that were sold out near at the checkout line, that
little can looks really benign. It looks like it's like, oh,
no big deal, it's right here. It's super safe. And meanwhile,

(52:16):
it's like two and a half servings of alcohol and
it's just as easy to throw down as a you know,
sparkling water. So even if I'm questioning my use, it's
being delivered to me. So easily, So you know this,
these were the messages that I was hearing, and so yeah,

(52:36):
we started meeting every Wednesday, and then it just kept
growing and growing and growing, and women were like, hey,
can we do more of these? And so I just
kind of went with what women were asking for. They
wanted to have more meetings, they wanted to have you know,
coaching available, they wanted to have a place to connect.

(52:57):
And you know, women's communities are nothing new on line.
I have friends who I met in a I think
it was a baby center or something. I was in
an online group when my seventeen year old was when
I was pregnant with him, and we're still friends. And
so it really is just a place. It's a community
where you can talk about anything from you know, how

(53:19):
you know your baby sleeping through the night, or a
you know, better Wi Fi connection with all these kids
doing school from home, and it just is there's no
wine mom messaging around it. Nobody is going to tell
you to go just pour a glass of wine. So
our members really are anybody from women who just don't
drink just because they don't or it's never been a

(53:39):
thing for them. They just want to avoid all that messaging,
and then the whole other side of the spectrum, women
who really are questioning their drinking, sober curious, and women
who've been in recovery or are currently in recovery. So
it's just really a community for moms who don't want
to be in that sea of wine mom marketing.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Sober Mom Squad, I know, is membership based, right, And
it's not unlike Tempest, the Naked Mind and some other
organizations that have popped up emily. You have to pay
a fee to be a part of this community. And
I'm curious why you decided to go for that model,
and are you worried about creating a barrier for women

(54:26):
who may not be able to afford it.

Speaker 9 (54:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (54:28):
Sure, and this is a question that comes up a lot.
And you know when you have paid for recovery groups, right,
And first thing is we started as a free group,
and we still have a free meeting every Wednesday. We
have a free Facebook group. We have a free meeting
every single Wednesday. And the reason that you know, I
grew the community was really because women were asking for it,

(54:49):
like we want more of these meetings, we want group coaching,
we want to have different you know, we like have
EFT tapping, and we have writing for recovery, and I
I also value you know, what women put into their work,
and so for recovery coaches, counselors, you know, for my
writing expert, like I pay them. And so our membership

(55:12):
really goes to pay for the community and for the
people who are doing work in the community. And because
we charge, you know, a fee for membership, we do
offer scholarships to literally anybody who asks. So it's really
come about. And I think, you know, there are so
many free things out there, and I think if that

(55:33):
works for you, that's awesome. And I, you know, I'm
a person who still goes to AA, so like, I
see the value in that. But there are people who
want other things, and I don't think it's out of
the question to, uh, you know, pay people for their work.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
What would you tell moms listening to this right now, Emily,
who are kind of on the precipice of thinking this
is taking too much space in my life, or this
is becoming too important, or I just don't want to

(56:10):
get to the point where you know you were honestly,
or where Elizabeth was, or if I am there, what
do I do next?

Speaker 9 (56:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
So the first thing I always say is, you know,
it's not your fault for getting addicted to an addictive substance,
So to take that whole piece of shame out or
you know, we would never question our use of any
other addictive substance. We just say, oh wow, I'm questioning this.
I'm going to stop using this. So that's the first

(56:42):
thing I say is it's not your fault for becoming
addicted to an addictive substance. And also, like your rock
bottom is where you stop digging. You do not have
to fit any of the checklists. You don't have to
match anyone else's story. It doesn't have to get bad
before you stop and look at what good do you want?
Instead of what are the bad things you want to avoid?

(57:05):
If that makes sense, you know, because it's a different
even though you're saying the same thing. It's like, ugh,
I don't want to be hung over every day, or
you know, I want to wake up clear headed every day.
You're saying the same thing, but it's just flipping the
script on what do I want? You know, I want
to be more present for my kids. I want to
remember my date nights, I want to you know, whatever

(57:26):
it is. It's like, what do you actually want? And
how much better could your life be if you didn't
have this substance that was running the show. And I
think we also underestimate how much mental work it takes
to try and control this substance. I know for me,

(57:46):
it was a huge amount of mental freedom once I
was just like, oh, I don't have to do that anymore, Like, Wow,
I don't have to try and make all these rules
and do all these things to try and make this
fit in my life, Like this is something I have
to do. When you recognize that it's a choice and
not a requirement as an adult, it's there's a lot

(58:08):
of freedom there just looking at you know, how good
could your life be if this wasn't running the show?

Speaker 5 (58:16):
I love what you just said about you're not It's
not your fault. You became addicted to an addictive substance.
I've never heard that. That's fantastic.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
Well, and think about cigarettes. You would never say to somebody,
are you sure you don't want to just have one
or two? Just just don't smoke the whole pack and
just have We never we don't expect anyone to moderate
any other drug, but it's really again, it's that kind
of that double standard of we do expect people to
be able to have control over something that's addictive. When

(58:46):
you think about it, it's just something I never thought
of until again, I was free from it.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Before we move on once again, here's doctor Don Sugarman
to explain what alcohol does to the brain and how
sobriety can help it recover.

Speaker 8 (59:04):
So alcohol is what we would call it anxiolytic.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
People will notice that in the short term when they
take a sip of alcohol that they feel immediately relaxed.
The problem is that in the long term it increases anxiety,
so it becomes this crutch for people that's not a
very effective coping tool for anxiety. And in the brain,
what happens is that alcohol is a depressant. It suppresses

(59:30):
the central nervous system, so it slows down those systems,
which is again why you're feeling more relaxed.

Speaker 8 (59:38):
But when alcohol starts to leave your.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Body, when you start to go through sort of what's
called alcohol withdrawal, then those systems ramp back up, and
that's when you get the increased anxiety. I think the
other way that it increases anxiety is that you become
reliant on that as a way to cope when you're
anxious and so and your in situations where you're unable

(01:00:02):
to drink alcohol and you don't have that sort of crutch,
then you become more and more anxious, and it becomes
more of an anxiety about having a way to deal
with your anxiety.

Speaker 8 (01:00:13):
That's not always effective.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
But as doctor Sugarman says, there is some good news.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
There are studies that show that the cognitive impairments related
to drinking if you stop drinking within the year of abstinence,
those do seem to reverse, with the exception of if
you are really drinking at quite an extreme level where
there's sort of permanent damage, but for the most part,

(01:00:41):
stopping drinking will help improve your health and can reverse
some of those cognitive impairments.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Elizabeth and I also spoke with doctor Louise Stanger. She's
a clinical social worker and interventionists with more than thirty
five years of experience in the world of substance abuse
and addiction. She told us how to approach people who
may have a problem. What are the questions you ask people,
Louise to determine if they've gone from having a healthy

(01:01:15):
relationship with alcohol or casual. I don't even know how
to describe it to something that is really dangerous, damaging
and incapacitating.

Speaker 9 (01:01:26):
So when I'm doing a family matt where I would
ask you, Katie, first of all, you take a look
and you say, what's more important the event or the substance?
So right now you and I are drinking coffee. But
let's say we go out to dinner. Right if that

(01:01:46):
glass of wine is more important to you than the event,
I'm going to know that because it's not going to
be just one glass of wine, that's going to be
two glasses. You ask people have there been any unintended
consequences with you know, college studentsies can say, hey, did
you ever wake up in someone else's dead? For example?

(01:02:08):
Have you ever missed a class?

Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
Have you ever.

Speaker 9 (01:02:13):
Lied or cheated on anybody? Have you ever missed a class?
Have you ever has anyone to bail you out? It's
taking a look at what have you ever had a dui?
Have you ever been yet reprimanded.

Speaker 8 (01:02:29):
By your boss?

Speaker 9 (01:02:31):
Have you ever fallen asleep with your baby in your arms?
There's all kinds of unintended consequences. Do you talk to
your partner. If you have a partner, you know, what's
your relationship with everybody? So you try and take a
look and you ask people you know, on a scale
of one to ten, how's this working for you?

Speaker 5 (01:02:53):
And then how do you convince them to take the net?
You know, because a lot of people. First of all,
there are a lot of people who have consequences like
that after one bad night, like I have lots of
you know, when I started telling my girlfriends that I
had a problem with alcohol, they were like, no, you don't,
so and so does you know she's had all the
consequences that we've seen you. We've never seen you do

(01:03:14):
any of those things. And that's true. I didn't so
and for a large and I was able to stop
drinking when I got pregnant, and so that gave me deniability.
I was like, I don't have a problem. I can
control it. I have controlled it, and I haven't had
all those dramatic negative consequences, at least not yet. And
so how do you convince somebody to take the step

(01:03:35):
to get help when denial can be so strong, and
you can point to so many other people and say, well,
she's much worse than I am so.

Speaker 9 (01:03:43):
First of all, I my word of recommendation is you
never go one on one with anybody who you believe
is active in addiction. That is one of the most
full heartiest things in the world. So I'm really known
for an invitational strategy or intervention, and an intervention is
nearly an invitation to change. But if you really want,
if you're really worried about someone, you want to do

(01:04:05):
a lot of backwork and do due diligence, and you
want to be able to interview their friends, their family
because individually, because if I and I don't If I,
for example, wanted to learn about you, I might talk
to your producer. I might talk to your husband, I
might talk to your best friend, I might talk to

(01:04:26):
your mother. But somebody usually calls me and not you,
because you're the identified loved one. If we use you
whose heart is hurting, they bag, they pleaded, they nag,
They they don't know what to do because they see
with their eyes that someone is drowning.

Speaker 5 (01:04:45):
So how often how often does that person say, Okay,
I'll get help, Like, what's what's the that?

Speaker 9 (01:04:51):
Well, for me, I've been very fortunate. I'm a ninety
seven percent success but I don't show up and just
say hi, I guess what. It takes a long of work.
So when we're we're with a family, I do do
the family map. It takes me twenty to thirty hours
of backwork before I would ever stage or invite you

(01:05:12):
to change the way I see an intervention, it's collective
in the respect that it takes a village to move someone.
Recovery in and of itself is connection. It takes a village.
It is an intervention in that we intend to invite
or seek someone or motivate them to change, and we
create a positive crisis in which there's an opportunity for

(01:05:37):
you to understand that this is coming from a place
of love, this is coming from a place of hope,
and that there is a solution, and people will walk
with you. The strategy is you've got to be very flexible.
But you don't just walk into someone and you say, oh, hi,
you've been drinking, you need to go, or you don't

(01:05:57):
do it in a dismissive way, but try and learn
everything you can about that person and then help other
people speak from their heart. So when I talk about intervention,
I'm talking about heart hurt and hope. What have you
experienced in the last couple months that our years have

(01:06:18):
made your heart hurt? And what is your hope? And
you can't do an intervention without having a solution in place.
Whether it's with alcohol, I'm going to be clear, because
it's both physiologically and psychologically. You need residential medical detoks.

(01:06:39):
You just can't just go cold turkey on your own.
You stand too much of a risk for a seizure
for some other problems. So it would be foolhardy to say.

Speaker 5 (01:06:49):
Just stop now. You can die. You can die from alcohol.
I have a friend. I have a friend who son died,
So you.

Speaker 9 (01:06:58):
Have to really understand what you're doing.

Speaker 5 (01:07:01):
People don't realize how dangerous that is. I mean coming
off of heroin, being dope sick. You'll feel like you
want to die, but you won't actually die. People die
from alcohol withdrawal absolutely.

Speaker 9 (01:07:12):
And also you have to with the family that you're
working with, give them three great treatment solutions. I'm not
related to any behavioral healthcare center in the world. I've
had the good fortune of training or teaching it many
of them and working with many of them. Just based
on you know, my reputation or my ability to do

(01:07:35):
good work.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
Well, you know, just to wrap things up, I hope
that all these people, and we're talking about women more specifically,
but anyone who has a substance abuse issue that's developed
during the pandemic will get help. Because the numbers are frightening.

Speaker 9 (01:07:58):
They are they're absolutely astronomical. We are a country in
crisis and our mental health, our anxiety is at an
all time high. We have we're being fueled by the
alcohol industry, the marijuana industry, the pill industry, and what

(01:08:20):
we need to do is help rewrite the fabric. But
for women, especially because this is dedicated to women, I
want them to know there's always hope, there's always a solution,
that you're not alone, that you're not crazy, that you
feel it's awful to be inside in zoom land, it's
not awful to be scared that your child is not thriving,

(01:08:44):
That there is help available.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Help is available if you or anyone you know is
struggling with alcohol use. You can start by calling the
National Drug and Alcohol Treatment Hotline at one eight hundred
two help. That's one eight hundred sixty six to two
four three five seven, and you know what. You can
also check out the groups we discussed, like the Sober

(01:09:11):
Black Girls Club, the Sober Mom Squad, and Alcoholics Anonymous.
Of course, we'll have links and more information in the
description of this podcast. A big thank you, by the
way to my co host, Elizabeth Bargas, who I've known
for many, many years and I so admire how she
has not only dealt with her issues but shared her

(01:09:32):
story to help other people. Go check out her memoir
it's called Between Breaths. And also she's got a great
podcast where she talks to lots of different people in
the alcohol and addiction space. That podcast is called Heart
of the Matter. Next Question with Katie Kirk is a

(01:09:55):
production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kirk Media. The executive producers
are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. The supervising producer
is Lauren Hanson. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fazzio.
The show is edited and mixed by Derek Clements. For
more information about today's episode, or to sign up for

(01:10:15):
my morning newsletter, Wakeupcall, go to Katiecuric dot com. You
can also find me at Katiekiric on Instagram and all
my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.