March 23, 2022 • 50 mins
Host Andrea Kremer takes us back to 1995 when NFL Films Steve Sabol interviewed QB Jim McMahon. The Super Bowl Champion looked back on the 1985 season and his relationship with Head Coach Mike Ditka. Jim recalls his contentious relationship with Ditka, who called the plays but often saw them changed at the line by McMahon. Steve asks about the sole loss that season, as Chicago had started the season 12-0 before losing to the Dolphins. Jim looks at his experiences during Super Week which included being wrongly quoted, mooning a helicopter, the Super Bowl Shuffle, the cover of Rolling Stone magazine and his infamous headband. Steve wraps up with the amazing talent surrounding Jim on those Chicago teams and how the players off the field personalities were so different than their gridiron personas.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tales from the Vault is a production of the NFL
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to NFL Films
Tales from the Vault. I'm your host, Hall of Fame
journalist Andrea Kramer. The late president of NFL Film Steve Sable,
was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in
the summer of For nearly fifty years, he was the
(00:27):
heart and soul of NFL Films. Over that time, Steve
conducted hundreds of interviews with the greatest figures in NFL history.
On this podcast, you'll get to hear from them raw,
unedited in their entirety for the first time. My role,
I'm sort of at the tour guide, you know, holding
your hand as we step into the time capsule, providing context,
(00:49):
insights and the occasional anecdote from my time covering these
men who played the game, as Steve like to call them.
This week, we have Steve's interview with the famed Punky
QB the Bears Jim McMahon. Yeah. Yeah. In the summer
(01:17):
of NFL Films began production on a special tenth anniversary
celebration of one of the most iconic Super Bowl champions,
in NFL history Chicago Bears. At the center of the
episode was an interview done by Steve Sable with the
leader of that team, well one of the leaders anyway,
(01:38):
quarterback Jim McMahon. At this point in his career, McMahon
was on his fifth different teams since leaving the Bears
following the season. The bulk of this interview takes place
indoors on location in Chicago, where Steve and Jim Delvan
and the nuts and bolts of the season, but we
begin with them on the shores of Lake Michigan with
(02:00):
the city behind them as they set the scene for
the anniversary show with a quick little Q and a
sort of consider this the appetizer for the full meal
yet to come. So let's go to the vault for
Steve Sable and Jim McMahon. Hi, I'm Steve Sable and
I'm in Chicago today and joining me as a co
host on today's show is the former quarterback of the
(02:22):
world champion Chicago Bears, Jim McMahon. Jim, you know and Jim.
Carl Sandberg once wrote about this city. He said that
the Chicago is coarse, strong, and cunning. That's a pretty
good description of your old team in that I think so.
I think our team was fits every one of those
words and probably a few more. Now, when I think
(02:45):
of your team, I think of you know, the forty
six defense, think of yourself, think of the refrigera. I
think a Mike did get to Now, what was it
like to play for a coach like that? Well, Mike
was a very intense individual. He's I would have loved
to play with him because he was a great football
player in his attitude, but play form at times was
It was a little tough. Now as a fan, I
always just remember, you know, I'm raging along the sidelines.
(03:07):
Do you ever remember any specific temper tantrums that he
had that you still remember? Now, we had a We
had quite a few runnings on the sidelines, but there
was one one story in particular. And three We're playing
in Baltimore. We lost in overtime and he came in
the locker room, is very upset, and he just turned
and he punched a punched a locker and as he hitted,
(03:29):
he turned to Vince Evans and said, Vinny lead him
in prayer, and Doc, I need to see you in
the bathroom next day. He walks in with the cast.
Uh did Get and McMahon just two of the innumerable
characters on those great eighties Bears teams, many of whom
will be hearing more great stories about as you listen
to this interview. And to keep me from jumping in
(03:51):
every two minutes and disrupting the flow, let me remind
you of everything that happened. So I'll give you a
brief overview. Bears went fifteen and one in the regular season.
The great Walter Payton was their star running back, Mike
Singletary Samurai. Mike was the leader of the most feared
and arguably best defense in NFL history. And if you
(04:12):
doubt that, just ask any of those players themselves. Mike
Ditko was the head coach, and the colorful Buddy Ryan
Well he actually considered himself the head coach of the defense.
McMahon actually played for Buddy in both Philadelphia and Arizona,
but Buddy was entitled the Bears defensive coordinator. Then there
was the Fridge William Refrigerator Perry, larger than life and
(04:34):
on the field at three hundred and fifteen pounds, which
was unique for a defensive line back then. McMahon's health
was also a big part of that season, and in fact,
Steve will ask Jim about the Week three game against
the Vikings when an injured McMahon took over mid game
and led the Bears to victory. And of course, who
(04:55):
can forget the Monday night game against the Miami Dolphins.
So let's hear about it all and go back to
the vault. And you went into training town in was
there a feeling in that training camp, if you could
go back, that sort of said, you know this, we
might have something special here there or or or was
this something that sort of developed during the course of
the season. Now I think it it started in eighty four,
(05:19):
or actually in eighty three. We won the last i
think six of the last seven games in eighty three
and started getting the field for how good we were
going to be. And then in eighty four we came
out and and uh, we went to the playoffs, went
to the NFC Championship game. In eighty four, we we
knew that we had a pretty good football team. And
then in eighty five it just all seemed to come together.
(05:42):
We went into camp with a feeling that, hey, we
can we can get to the next step and go
to the Super Bowl. We started out, I think, if
I remember right, we opened up with Tampa Bay and
they were beating us at halftime to fourteen or something,
and we eventually came back and beat them, and then
uh played the Patriots the second game of the year,
(06:03):
beat them, and then I think the turning point of
the season came on a Thursday night game against Minnesota.
They were one and one at the time, we were
two and oh, and had they beaten us, uh, things
might have been differently. But that's the game that I
came off the bench and our Dick could finally let
me play and turned it around and won that ball
(06:24):
game and then just got on a roll from there.
And that game against the Vikings. What was why couldn't
you play well? I'd gotten hurt in the Patriot game
week before. I was in the hospital and traction all week.
I had my neck and my upper back were SPASMI
and uh so I didn't get out of hospital till Wednesday,
and that's the day we left to go up to Minnesota.
(06:45):
And Mike just said, you know, you're not playing. You know,
he haven't been to practice, you haven't done anything. And
I'm convinced to this day. The only reason he put
me in the game was to get me off the
sideline because I was bugging the hell out of him.
I just kept saying, look, this thing is slipping away.
You better let me play, and eventually he just said,
get your ass in there and and go to it.
(07:07):
But that was That was a fun game and a
fun year. I remember one of those touchdown passes that
Peyton had a hell of a block. Do you remember that.
That was the first play that I went in. The
play was actually a screen pass um but as I
come away from the center, I stumbled a bit and
that's when Walter came in and blocked the blitzing linebacker.
(07:27):
And I saw the blitz coming, so I knew the
screen wasn't gonna be any good. You know, they're a
man and man coverage in the screen, and I just
happened to look downfield and Willie Gott was running his
man off and he got behind him. So I just
let it go and we scored. In fact, Dick asked
me when I when I got to the sidelines, he goes,
what play did you call? I said, well, I called
the screen, Mike, but that's not gonna be any good
(07:47):
against the Blitz. I just threw it to him. Uh,
And that's how that that game worked. It just kind
of improvised and I got it done. When you go
back to training camp, what did you first think when
you saw Parrot? I mean, did you think, oh, ship,
what is this some sort of joke? Or did you
see or did you see the guy see it? Maybe
the guy could help us? Well, he was. He wasn't
(08:08):
as big as he is now. I mean he was
he was fairly trimmed for for William. I mean he
was maybe about three fifteen three twenty, which was which
is a good weight for him. Uh, he's he's since
ballooned up a little bit. But the guy had amazing
quickness for a big man, you know, and he and
he he blocked the holes. I mean the guy took
(08:29):
up a lot of space and took two people to
block him. And that that freed up guys like Bent
and McMichael and Hampton and and everybody else we had
come in that year. And Uh, although he didn't play
much defense that first year, if I can remember right,
I know Buddy Ryan wasn't real high on him. But
Buddy really busted his balls to a practice. I mean
our stories, It just wrote him. Yeah, you think Ryan
(08:50):
didn't want the guy in the first place, or that
he was I don't think it was. It was Buddy's
one of Buddy's choices for one, and uh, and then
he was. He was not in the kind of shape
that Buddy likes his guys to be in. He works
as defensive players pretty hard and keeps some in good shape.
And I don't think he felt that William was going
to be able to hold up. When you one of
(09:11):
the things when when you practice, you would practice against
Buddy's defense. You think that helped that the offense at all,
to practice against the defense, or maybe it didn't because
nobody else ever played defense like that. Well, it helped
us because it uh, I think it made us tougher offensively,
because having to try to block these guys, you know,
I get tell him, Look, if we can block our
own defense, we shouldn't have any problem with anybody else
(09:32):
in the league. Because we had a great defensive line
and and we had linebackers that were coming all the time,
and safeties and and so it made us a lot
more alert offensively, and so we were ready for anything.
Come Sunday in in nineteen six three. I remember I
just started as a cameraman. I remember as the championship
game and did get Embers in. All that did was
(09:53):
paying tight end. And that was the year that Bears
offense had Billy Wade. It really had no offense at
all and another great defense. And I remember being ounce
of the locker room and somebody asked, Didcot before the
game something about the defense? And he turned around he says,
I funk that defense. We got an offense too, and
he was Was there a rivalry like that with you
guys that or was there a respect or was I
(10:14):
mean a lot of teams that have great defense or
great offenses, there's there's a constant friction between the two
with your team. Was it like that or was it
or was there a feeling that, look, you know, we're
both rolling this together, or was there some sort of rivalry?
But now I think when I first got to Chicago
and eighty two, that's all we anybody ever heard about
was how good our defense was, you know, and it
(10:35):
was defense this and defense that. And I think I
got along pretty well with most of the guys on
the defense, and I tried to relate to them. You know,
you can't win by yourself. You know, we're we're going
to have to do something offensively for us to uh
to go all the way. And I think our offense
was very underrated that year. I think we we held
the ball for you know, close to forty minutes a game. Uh,
(10:57):
we scored a lot of points. Um, you know, we
didn't we didn't have a lot of turnovers. And I think, uh,
in something like nine of the sixteen games, we we
scored first and to give our defensive lead, that's pretty
much all they needed. And uh, but I think we
complimented each other well because we kept them fresh, we
(11:17):
scored points, got ahead, and then that's then let them
do their thing. But we were very underrated offensively, and
I think that's that's surprised a lot of people. We
had a hell of an offensive line. Like I said,
we controlled the football most of the game and got
got points. Are enough points for us to win, and
that's you know, you gotta have it. You can't have
just one side and not the other, or else you're
(11:39):
not gonna win. You know, Miami's proved that over the
years with Marino. You know, best offensive football probably, and
they can't win UM teams like Denver, they've been the
Super Bowl. You know, you have to have balance on
both sides of the ball or you're not gonna win it.
You mentioned Miami and that was one of the I
think one of the highest rated money night games in
history when you guys were going for that undefeated season
(12:00):
and you played the Dolphins. What do you remember about
that game? I remember that woldn't play me that game.
Uh again, I was I had heard an ankle the
week before, but I was much healthier that following week
than I wasn't in Minnesota, and Mike just said, you know,
you're not playing tonight. You haven't practiced again. That I
think that didn't practice rule only related to me because
(12:24):
guys on the defense, you know, they didn't practice a week,
but they got to play. UM. You know, it was
it was very frustrating to sit there and watch what
happened that night happened because uh, you know, they got
up got up on us a little bit, and we're
trying to throw the football. Steve Fuller, who's who I
thought was a heck of a quarterback. Uh, we we
(12:44):
just didn't have a throwing offense, and we were running
football team play action pass and uh we tried to
keep up with Miami through the air, which I thought
was ridiculous. And at the time, Walter was going for
his ninth or tenth yard game in a row, and
I thought that was much more important than than win
in the football and we're already in the playoffs. I
would have been great to go defeated, but I think
(13:06):
the way that thing happened was just it was sad,
you know, But I think that that was kind of
a wake up call for us. Look, we can be
beat and I think it really got us to focus
a lot more down the stretch. You have to truly
understand the significance of that Dolphins Bears game. The Bears
were twelve and oh and back then there had been
no team since the seventy two undefeated Dolphins to even
(13:30):
start a season with twelve wins in a row. This
game was considered really a speed bump to an undefeated season.
Was really the last team that the Bears were going
to face that could keep them from going undefeated. So
there were huge steaks here on this Monday night. Going
into this game, the Bears were a Juggernaut that it
allowed three points total in their previous three games, and
(13:53):
here comes Dan Marino and the Dolphins trying to knock
them off and preserve the legacy of their predecessors, that
famous Miami team from a decade before. Well, as much
as McMahon may or may not have made a difference,
the Dolphins put up thirty eight points on the NFL's
best defense. When we come back, mcmahonn tell Steve about
(14:15):
his conflicts with Ditka. Ditka McMahon conflict, No, I'd never
believe that. Plus the story of the Rolling Stone cover shoot,
Stay tuned, Welcome back to Tails from the Vault. Say
what you will about Mike Ditka the coach. His record
does speak for itself, but it always seemed like he
(14:36):
was feuding with someone. It was Dicka versus the media,
versus his players, Buddy Ryan, and even yes, Jim McMahon.
For McMahon's part, consider that coming out of such a
tightly wound culture at b y U, he was expecting
life in the NFL to be a little less restrictive,
but that was not the case under head coach Mike Ditka. Plus,
(14:58):
Ditka liked being the bad guy he thought it gave
him an edge, as evidenced by the quote you're about
to hear. I had a quote that season he said
something about, you know, they're they're fair haired teams and
they're not fair air teams, and their teams that are
named Smith and their teams that are named Grobovski and
we're Grobovski's what what do you what do you think?
How did you interpret that? I tried not to interpret
(15:22):
anything might had to say. I mean it was I
guess that was his way of saying that we had
a bunch of tough guys that you know, we're gonna
line up and play no matter what. And which we were,
I mean we we had we had a lot of uh,
pretty intimidating individuals, both on both sides of the football. Now,
our offensive line didn't take crap from anybody, even our
(15:43):
own guys. There was a lot of fights in practice,
and offensively we did pretty well in those. Um. I
think there was a great respect between both sides of
our our our team, and I think that's why we
we played together on Sundays and we had a great
time off the field. I think that's that's the thing
that we all kind of remember the most is how
(16:04):
much phone we had off the field. We still came
came to play on Sunday, but once the game was over,
I mean we we knew how to have fun and
we did. Um, you changed them about it. It's really
interesting that I remember doing a piece on quarterbacks and
coaches and you go back through history from autogram and
you never got along with Paul Brown. Roger Stolbach was
terrified at Land brad Shaw to this day hates Chuck Nols.
(16:28):
Why is it the quarterbacks and head coaches? And again,
I mean just you and I are talking, there seems
to be some sort of friction. Is that because the
quarterback really this is my team with the coaches saying
this is my team? How would you describe your would
your relationship with Mike fit into sort of that same
traditional mold where you have a quarterback who's a real
leader and a coach who wants you see when you
(16:48):
look through history, you seem to seeing that that always
seems to happen. And even with my time and Bill Waltson, well,
I think, uh, for one thing, I don't think he
understood me very well. I mean he thought that I
didn't put enough effort in. I didn't watch enough film him.
I didn't do this, I didn't do that. But for
what we were doing, I mean, you could around our offense.
(17:10):
I mean it didn't take a whole lot of brains
to turn around give the ball to Wally thirty times
a game. Um, where we had our problems is what
he was calling the place. I mean, he called plays
like a tight end would call a play. It was
really no rhyme or reason, it seemed like. And a
lot of times the play that was sent in was
not the one that I called, and that kind of
(17:34):
upset him a little bit. But you know, I feel,
I feel that I have a good grasp of of
the game of football, and I I think I was
a lot further ahead than most people coming out of
college because of where I went to school. We threw
the ball thirty five times a game. You know, I
was able to look and see what was happening on
the defensive side of the ball. Where a lot of
(17:54):
guys are turning around giving the ball to running backs,
they don't learn a lot of what's going on. So
I felt that I, you know, I had a good
grasp of what we needed to do and uh and
as a rookie, I changed a lot of plays and
are called audibles, and because that's the way I was taught.
And uh, you know, when you've got nine guys on
this side of the ball, why try to run it
(18:14):
over there? We're we're notorious third and long, We're gonna
run a sweep. And everybody in the league knew it.
And uh so I wouldn't change it, you know, run
the other way and we'd get a lot of first
downs and uh, you know I talked to Walter about it,
and he said, hey, just keep doing what you're doing.
You're saving me, you know. Uh, you know, it's it's
to me. This game is not that hard, and everybody
(18:36):
tries to over analyze it, and uh, you know, we
gotta do this and you got to do that. It's
it's like a chess game, you know, try to try
to go where they're not. And that's that's basically what
I've tried to do my whole career. Well, when you
would come off the field after that, what would what
would did to say to you about that? I mean,
what with with there? Well, we had our words. I mean,
there was a lot of a lot of toe to
(18:57):
toe discussions, uh, during the games. But you know, Mike
had a tendency to fly off the handle. But then
he said something to him that will snap him out
of it. He kind of really, Okay, well that's why
he did that. Or during the film sessions on Monday,
he'd say, well, I see now why you did what
you did. But at the time, you know, he just
(19:17):
would blow up and and then I'd blow up and
then it just kind of blow over after that. But
do you think that because it did could be in
the way he was it? Actually he was sort of
an unusual personality if you were unusual. Singletary was Hampton.
And when you look the whole team, you think that
that was good because it brought a lot of sparks
together and that in turn maybe he made his team better.
(19:39):
Had another and you have Buddy Ryan thrown into the mix.
I mean, do you think that that if you'd had
a coach like a Ted Marcher Broda for somebody, you
think the team would have been just as good? Well?
I think, I mean, we had the best players in
the league. I mean you look over the years, Uh,
the teams that win pretty much have the best talent
(20:00):
and I think we were as talented as anybody. But
I think all those distractions, know Buddy and Nitkin would
get into it every every game, uh Dicken and myself
or you know, if somebody was always chomping at the
bit at each other. But you know, we we as
a as a team, as players, you know, we decided
we're gonna win in spite of all this that's going
(20:22):
on because we knew we were pretty good, pretty damn good,
and uh so we didn't we didn't let that stuff
bother us, and we let them say whatever they wanted
to say. But when we got on the field, I
had the last day in the offensive huddle and Mike
had the last day in the defensive huddles. So we
just said, you know, let's let's just get it done
for ourselves. When uh you look at that that whole
(20:45):
team and the personality of one of the things was interesting.
As you see, now, celebrities sort of attracted, you know,
are attracted. Did you have any celebrities that you noticed
would show up at the games and sort of want
to align themselves with with your with with your team.
And I remember Bill Murray being on the sidelines. A
couple of times. Uh. In fact, he was there during
the playoff games. And uh, Johnny McEnroe, who was a
(21:08):
friend of Kenny margin from college, he was there a
few times. Other than that, I didn't see too many
other people. I try not to to look around the sidelines,
and I try to worry about what's on the field.
But um, sure there was somewhat. I mean, you were
on the cover of rollingst Mean what was that? Like?
Did they do you remember what that happened that when
they called because at that time people were laughing, said
(21:30):
you were on a few players are probably ever read
Rolling Stone and knew what the hell it was? I mean,
did you when they called you up and talk to you?
What do you remember anything about that? And said, wow,
what you know? What do you want me on the
cover for Rolling Stone? Well? That's that actually came from
Keith van Horn. It was a big music buff and
and uh he said, hey, you got to try to
do a cover. So I had my attorney call, or
(21:50):
they call. I don't know how it came about, but um,
I told me the only way I would do it
is if if Keith and Kurbecca were on the cover
with me. And uh, they screwed that up too, But
you know, they took pictures of Keith and I and
Kurt and it was happening down in New Orleans just
before the Super Bowl is when they took all the shots.
But you know, they put them in the magazine, but
(22:11):
they didn't put them on the cover with me, so
I kind of bought me out. Do you remember what
that shoot was like, because those I just curious because
those cover shoots are usually a big good I just
remember being in some hotel room down in New Orleans.
We did we did the shots, and then we had
the guy who wrote the article kind of followed us
around until we ditched them, you know, and it was
(22:33):
that was just a crazy week, you know, all that
stuff that happened with the with the reporter saying that
I said this and that about the women in New Orleans,
and I was just happy to get out of town alive.
I'm glad the game was over and glad the season
was over. It was it was a hectic year. McMahon
always seemed to court controversy, but with the eyes of
(22:54):
the sporting world laser focused on the Super Bowl, everything's
magnified and McMahon was at the epicenter of it all,
a false TV report in New Orleans incorrectly quoted McMahon
is saying New Orleans is the dirtiest city I've ever seen.
The people are stupid and the women are sluts. That
report led to death threats and protests by women's groups
(23:16):
outside the team hotel. The next day, the TV station
issued a retraction and an apology, but the damage was done.
And to add injury to insult McMahon, who was suffering
from a deep buttock bruise, you got it, a legitimate
pain in the ass. McMahon mooned a helicopter, ostensibly to
(23:38):
show the world where he was hurt, as if the
world was better off seeing Jim McMahon's butt. Needless to say,
it was never a dull moment with McMahon, much to
the team, and did because chagrin, and of course we
haven't even heard about the Super Bowl shuffle, the vaunted headband.
But just you wait here. It all comes because I
(23:59):
remember that you said you call the women or something. Well,
that's that's what it is, Jesus, that's what the guy said.
I said, And it supposedly happened at six in the
morning and some interview, and guys that knew me knew
I wasn't getting up for any damn interview at six
o'clock in the morning. UM. I don't know what it was.
The guy had for had it out for me, but
(24:21):
you know, I was having fun in New Orleans. I
mean we got down there what Monday, Uh so Tuesday
and Wednesday, you know, we were having a great time
and and all of a sudden Thursday morning, I got up,
I went down to breakfast, and Jerry Venisi came up
to me and said, you really did it this time.
And I had no idea what the hell he was
talking about. Um. And then Mike Ditka came up to
(24:44):
me and said, did you say that? And I said,
say what? I still had no idea what was going on.
And uh, finally my attorney caught up with me and
he says, hey, this this thing came out, and do
you know did you do this or did you say this?
I said, I don't know what they're talking about. I
didn't do the interview. I didn't say you know, even
if I had that thought, I would never say that
to a reporter. But uh, you know, so I went
(25:06):
back up to my room and my attorney says, look,
you gotta go down and face the press. I go, wife, wife,
face the press. I mean, hell, they're they're saying whatever
the hell they want to say anyway, you know, just
let him say it. But so I finally went down
and said, look, you know, all you people in this
room want to believe that I did this interview and
call the women sluts and this and that, but unfortunately
(25:27):
I didn't. And uh so if you believe me, fine,
if not, I don't give a ship. You know, we
got a game to play, and I'm not gonna let
this be a distraction, you know, to myself or the team.
And ah, well that's just how the That's basically how
the whole year went, you know, people saying whatever they
wanted to say about us, and and we didn't care.
We just showed up on Sunday and just beat people.
(25:50):
What about to think of the helicopter? What was that
that story about that was that true? Well we're yeah,
that was true, but the guy was just kind of
hovering around right during our stretched time. And and uh
at that time, my ass was still about that big
from the from the head I took, and uh, I
just kind of showed him where it was. That was it? Well,
(26:10):
I didn't think it was that big a deal. But
you guys in the press, I'll tell you all right,
how about you see you guys in the press. How
about the whole thing with a Super Bowl shuffle? When
when that started that when they came to didn't you
think wait a second, we hadn't want anything yet, and
then we're going to really come off as as really
cocky when this thing but that you just figure we'll
(26:31):
ship We're good enough. I don't even ship any but
let's do it because it was fun. Or how did
that ever happen? Well, it started as a as a
fundraiser thing for the for the needy people in Chicago
around Christmas time. Um, I really wasn't that interested in
doing it. Uh, you know, we we went ahead and
cut the record, and uh, I had told him at
(26:53):
the time, look, I'm not doing any any video or
anything else until after, you know, we get through with
this year, because I knew what kind of impact that
would have on the teams were playing and around the league.
But so we went, we did the record, and all
of a sudden, now they're saying, okay, we gotta do
the video along with the record, you know, and we
had told him before, look, we're not going to do it.
(27:14):
And in fact, I didn't show up to the video shoot.
Uh Peyton didn't show up either, and the rest of
the guys did the thing, and uh, in fact, you
can you can kind of tell in the video that
Walter and I are super imposed in that thing, because
I don't know where they did the video at, but I,
me and Walter did our parts in the racquetball court
at Hollis Hall. And in fact, they were gonna sue us.
(27:36):
Willie Galt and is the guy who started this thing.
We're gonna sue us had we not done done the part.
So eventually we did it, and uh, I'm just glad
it didn't it didn't backfire. But we had fun with it.
You know, a lot of people still um talk about that.
You know, I signed a lot of those little record
things that people have in these autograph shows and stuff
(27:58):
like that. But I thought it was a little kind
of embarrassing, but you know, that's the way it goes.
How about when I need to get back to the
thing for the Super Bowl? What about the headband? I mean,
there's another thing that created. I mean, wasn't the cover
of every magazine in the newspapers when just starting where'd
you where'd you get that idea? How did that? I
started wearing a headband back in college. Uh, I just
(28:20):
don't like warren A Helmett. I mean rubs, rub scrap
out of your forehead. And uh I started wearing it
just to keep the skin on my head, you know.
And I wore it all year long. Uh nobody ever
said a word to me during the season about it.
It had Adidas on it all year long. And then
suddenly now we're in the playoffs and now it's a
big deal. And uh they said they were gonna find me,
(28:43):
which they did. Um. They said it was free advertising
for the televisions. You don't hear that in the golf
tournaments or the tennis tournaments. Guy's got I mean, it's
there's stuff all over that's free advertising. But because the
NFL wasn't getting a cut, we couldn't do this. That's
that's the that's the big problem with those, uh the
rules that they have, it's ridiculous. They don't get their cut,
(29:05):
then you can't do it. So, you know, they said
they're gonna find me. And then the following week we're
playing in the championship game. Um, I came out with
the Adidas went on, and the ref told me, he says,
you can't you know, you can't wear that. Um So
I went back in the locker room and I decided.
In fact, Mike McCaskey was said, hey, why don't you
(29:26):
put George Hollis's name on there or my name? You know,
and that wasn't going to be a good idea, So
we just decided to throw Rosel's and he can't find
me for giving him advertising. I thought, so h It
actually worked out pretty well and I got a lot
of a lot of kudos for that one. But it
happened the same way the same way in the Super Bowl.
(29:47):
I said I couldn't wear it, and but Adidas gave
me fifty thousand reasons to wear it. So you know,
I went out and warm ups and had it on,
and the referee says, I can't let you out in
the field with that on your head, and so I decided, well,
there's no rule of it's neck bands. So I just
pulled the damn thing all the way down to my neck.
(30:08):
I wore it all game, and he says, well, there
is no rule about that. So the following year that
came out with a lot of different rules for me
and whoever else wanted to try to take advantage of
the system. But you had a Friend's Day or something,
or for the Super Bowl, I had, Uh, I mean
I got sent thousands of these things. I mean some
(30:28):
of just people's names on them. But I chose a
lot of charities. Um, I figured they can't find me
for charities because that's what basically the NFL, and there
the charity program they have. I mean, what what's the
big deal? So I ended up wearing a lot of
different charities and then I had one that said Pluto
on it for I got it. I played college football
with who had ended up having a brain tumor ended
(30:51):
his career. He's still alive, thankfully, but it ended his career.
So I just thought I'd put that on there for
him and let him know I was thinking about him,
and it worked out pretty well. Did Roselle ever call
you himself? Because he sort of had a sense of
humor about certain things, I wondered, I did. I talked
to him at at the Pro Bowl that year, and uh,
(31:12):
we gotta laugh at out of it. He actually thanked
me for the free advertising that he got U but
he did. He had a good sense of humor about it,
and I like it all worked out well. And I
can't imagine a player taunting the commissioner today. I mean,
after all, that's what Twitter's for, right igest. But after
(31:33):
witnessing how the entire Bears team seemingly sidestepped one media
mindfield after another, it's even more amazing how they dominated
despite the distractions of the season and the Super Bowl itself.
When we come back, Jim McMahon spills the dirt on
Buddy versus dita. Welcome back to Tales from the Vault.
(31:56):
So in today's game, there are just a few teams
that actually have co coordinators. You know, one mate handle
the passing game and one may handle the running game.
But there's never, of course been co head coaches, except
if you ask Buddy Ryan about the Bears. Now, I
mentioned this to you before that Buddy considered himself the
(32:18):
head coach of the defense. He also told me one
time that he actually knew more about offenses than offensive coaches,
since he's the one that had to devise schemes to
stop them. But I will point out that with Ditka
and Buddy, it was the only time in NFL history
that two men were carried off the field on the
(32:39):
shoulders of their players after winning a Super Bowl. There's
no question that the dynamic between these two strong individuals
was truly something to behold. As we're about to hear
from Jim McMahon, you were talking before about the coaches
and Steven and one of the big things about that
team was that the personalities between Buddy and Mike, and
(33:01):
it was that true that there were that they didn't
talk during the year. I mean that was sort of
true when George Allen was a defensive word there with
the parents house. I mean, George Allen wouldn't even show
howist defensive game plan. So I don't think that was
unique for just this Chicago team. But when you were playing,
did it seems sort of strange to you that the
relationship are You really just figured, well, this is part
of this team and we have a lot of characters,
(33:22):
and we got two coaches in our character. It was
the first time I saw it was it was kind
of like, wow, I didn't know this went on, you know,
I thought, this guy's the head coach and supposed to
do this and that, and Buddy says, look, I run
a defense here. You know, I was here before you
got here. You didn't hire me, and you can't fire me,
so get out of my face. I mean that was
(33:43):
that was a little strange at first, but then we
just got used to it. I mean it happened every week.
There was always at one point in some game that
somebody break free and complete a long pass or get
along score on us. But that usually, you know, didn't
bother us because we were so far ahead. Um So
Mike would run over and say, why don't you play
any damn zone once in a while, you know, And
Buddy said, I get that here, I'm running this to
(34:07):
this defensive team. But as soon as Buddy left, we
got a guy in by the name of Vince Tobin
the following year, and people would just be completing balls
on us down the field and they can run up
and said, why don't you blitz sometime? Because he played
too much? So, I mean, that's you couldn't make him happy.
Interesting about Buddy Ryan, when he came to Phil Oflphie
(34:27):
before you were there, he seemed even the piste off
the offensive players on his own of his own team.
I mean when he was there with with you, I mean,
did some new guys an offensive? Why? The son of
a bitch? You know what? Why is he? You know
he does he's like intimidating us. And he said he's
an insulting us. Or or did that make you guys
play better? Or did you or you had a sort
of an interesting relationship with Buddy right well, I got
along wealth well with Buddies from day one when I
(34:49):
got here in Chicago, and uh, I don't know what.
I think he just liked my attitude or the way
I played. I don't know what it was. But we've
we've got along real well over the years. But he, uh,
he did he can screw up an offense because he
doesn't care about offense. I mean, but he just does
not care. You know, even back in uh I played
(35:10):
for him in Phoenix this year and he said, he
told our coordinator, just don't turn the ball over. We'll
score on defense and we'll win. I mean, we had
some pretty good offensive talent, but he just does not care.
He wants all the focus on his defense, and that's it. Period,
and I was to say, you had that book that
was christ the best seller for it was in the
New York Times best seller list. That's still I think
(35:30):
the number one selling biography. And the next one will
be better. Slam all in bastadors next time. Okay, that
was a question about you know the book. Where you
were when that came out? Where you surbayor it was,
you know, it was like the Bridges of Madison County
and then here you have your book was a number
one when the best seller list. I mean, when you
(35:52):
were doing the book, did you ever think that it
was gonna be an that that big a deal? Well,
when they approached me to do the book, uh, I
thought it was a little bit premature. I only played
four years and and uh but there was so much
said had been written and said about me at the time,
and then the thing happened in New Orleans. Uh. I
wanted people to get a true understanding of what I'm
(36:14):
all about to tell it in my own words, and
I thought by doing a book that, you know, maybe
people would have a little better understanding of who who
the hell Jim McMahon is, and you know where I
came from and um, you know, I just I still
get a lot of comments about how you know people
enjoyed it, and it was that wasn't my favorite subjects
(36:39):
that they're talking about myself for that amount amount of time.
But I just wanted to set the record straight and
then let people judge for themselves rather than reading reading
something in the newspaper, seeing something on television about these
guys opinions about me. It's a tough question, Ford ask,
But you was a quarterback. In the personality, we're a
lot different. You have other quarterbacks, and I mean somebody
(37:01):
once said, was see that Roger Stoback after the chorus,
there's a cant system and then you have the top
of the as a quarterback is the top of the
cast system and he's sort of separate. But your whole
approach was totally different than that. And every team you've
been with, you get a response from your team like, no,
none of the other quarterbacks, I mean, the guys that
play for you. Is that something that that you you
(37:22):
do you realize that or is this you know, this
is the way I am and I choose my friends
whoever I want, and this is what I enjoy playing
the game, or as a quarterback, you're supposed to be
a leader. Do you did you realize as a quarterback
that this is is probably your greatest dress as a leader.
Remember Jumbo saying that when you took on, when you
were on the field, everybody the level of play race.
(37:43):
I mean, is that something as a quarterback that you
feel is just as important as your footwork or your
quick release or stuff like that. Well, I was even
growing up through uh, you know, a little league in
high school. I never I never tried to put myself
above anybody else. I mean, I was a position on
a football team, even though the quarterback is a very
(38:04):
important position. I don't feel that I carried myself that
I was better than anybody else. I wanted to be,
you know, one of the guys, because in order for
me to do my job, everybody else had to do theirs.
Because if the offensive line doesn't doesn't block, and I
don't care who the hell you are, you're not gonna win.
You're not gonna perform well. And and I relayed that
(38:27):
to them, I let them know, look, you know, without
you guys, I can't do my job. I'm nothing. And
I think the um they respected that because I didn't.
I didn't put myself above him. I put myself in
there with him, and I said, look, you guys do
your job and I'll do mine. And I think, uh,
I think it worked out well that way. It's been
that way my whole career, and it's gonna be that
way as long as I play. When you talk at
(38:49):
quarterbacks today, you have you know, Steve Young, it's a
great athlete. Brito has got a quick release. But anybody
you bring up your name, nobody talks about your arm
or that. It's all how fucking tough the guy. I
saw the guy play where he couldn't work. I saw
him walk into a good game where his arm was
swoll when he still I mean even Richie co tighter.
They still tell story. But that's something that you must realize.
(39:10):
That's gonna be something as valuable to you as a
leader as any physical skill is. It almost seemed to
me that you almost want to be hurt a little
bit because that you seem to raise the level of
your play when you're playing in pain. I mean you think,
do you think well first physically you have a pain threshold.
I mean, you are those guys that can you know,
stick pins in your hand and you don't feel it.
Or is it just the competitive nature that you get
(39:32):
in and you just can forget about Well, I think, Uh,
there's a lot happens on game day. I mean the
adrenaline starts to flow. I mean I couldn't do it
during the week. I mean I couldn't go out there
in practice with the pain that I was in at
certain points in my career. But uh, on game day,
it just seems like I forget about it. I mean
the adrenaline kicks in. Uh little health from the doctors,
(39:56):
I mean, you gotta have some numbing effect in there too.
But I always felt it if I can walk out
on the field, I'm gonna play. And uh, no matter
what kind of a shape I was in that I
felt that I can. I could do the job and
and I'm always able to block out a lot of
the pain. I mean once the game's over, then I
(40:16):
you know, sit there and try to analyze and go
why the hell do you keep doing this? But uh,
there's something about walking out of that tunnel on Sunday
that just it gets me gone. I mean I want
to be out there. I want to play. I hate
being a spectator. Um, that's been the roughest part of
my career is when I'm not able to play, to
have to sit there and watch the games and and
(40:36):
see the guys what they're going through, and and knowing
I could be out there helping them. Um, that's I'm
able to block that out and just say, hell, I
can play, coach, just let me in. And I think
guys respond to that because they see I'm out there
in the shape that I'm in, given everything I've got,
and I think, um, that does something to him. Last
(40:57):
few questions, A few single things about a few guys
that you've played with. This will be order. You know,
I remember him be a sort of a practical joker.
He was. He was one of the biggest jokers I've
ever met in sports. I mean, the guy was. It
seemed like he was always up doing something, you know,
whether it be m a d S in the locker
(41:18):
room or or outside your door, or coming around pinsion
you or or I mean, he's the strongest man I've
ever met in my life. I'll come up and grab you,
hug in and just take your breath away, break your
hand if he shook it hard enough. But he was
just a great, great person to play with a lot
of fun. I still see him a lot, and uh,
(41:40):
I'm just glad I was able to play with a
guy like that. And the Super Bowl, why do you
think that he got so upset when he scored? Touched him?
To me almost seemed like there's a guy it's gonna
g that's the greatest running back ever and and the
team blowing out this team and me, what what? Why
was it so important him? Do you think to score
a touchdown even it was just like a guilding glial. Well,
(42:01):
I think it's you know, he played for so long
and been uh he'd been the Chicago Bears for so
many years, and to see him not be able to
get in that end zone in the biggest game of
his life, I think it was it had to hurt.
I mean it hurt me not not being able or
not seeing him score a touchdown. I mean we had
(42:21):
some plays called. The first one that I scored on
was it was an option play. It was either me
or Walter was going to score the score the touchdown.
But you know, you look back at it, New England's
focus was Walter Payton. They said, we're gonna stop Walter Payton,
and they did a pretty good job. You know, I
don't think he got a hundred yards. I mean everywhere
he went there was two or three guys there with him.
(42:44):
The one player. I remember the first play of the
second half, when we were backed up in the end zone,
we had to play action passed that I hit Willie
Galt down. We had a big game. H I faked
the ball to Walter and you can see the whole
defensive football team go after him. And I think that's
that's really what hurt the New England Patriots in that game.
They focused so much on Walter. They forgot that we
(43:04):
had other pretty good offensive players. And I think that
was their downfall, worrying so much about Walter. They let
everybody else have a pretty good day. When you talk
about running backs, what did you first think when they
put the fridge in the backfield and do you think
that this is this is really silli er Did you think, well,
that's that all came about because of in the championship
game in Bill Walts did that to us. He put
(43:27):
Guy McIntyre in the backfield and and and ground the
ball out and wouldn't give it back to us. So
in order to get back at bill. Uh. In fact,
it was the following year we went out to play
San Francisco and uh, we're head late in the game
and they put Fridge in the backfield so we can
ground it out. And that was just that's how that started,
(43:48):
just to say, hey, we can do that too, or
you're not gonna one up me, I'm gonna get you back.
And that's the way it started. But then nobody thought
that he would become a folk here. I mean, or
did you realize that, hey, this this something, this this
could be something I would not want to tackle that man.
You know, you give him the all a little head
of steam. Another Monday night game against Green Bay, he
(44:08):
hit I don't know who it was, one of their linebackers,
and just it was actually kind of funny to watch
it on film. I know that guy didn't feel it
was very funny getting blasted like that, But that's a
that's a lot of man to try to take down
and that short in that short space, and it's actually
pretty good idea. And uh, but it ended the way
(44:29):
it ended up. I mean, the guy was just everybody
wanted the ball. Then Uh, it's uh, but in plus
I think in the Super Bowl, I think there was
a little money bet in Vegas of whether or not
he was going to score, and I think that's why
he got in there. Okay, Mike Sigletary on the hardest
working man I've ever played with, even in practice, all
(44:52):
out every play, and he turned himself into a great linebacker.
Because I know when he first he was a year
ahead of me here in Chicago, and Buddy Ryan was
not real high on him u from all the indications
that I had that uh you know, but he didn't
want him play, and he was a rookie. H he
couldn't learn the system. And Mike studied and studied and studied,
(45:14):
and he turned himself into a great football player. Umber Marshall,
that's the one guy that I would not want to
get hit by. Of all the people that I've played against,
he is the probably one of the meanest, h greatest
athletes I've ever seen. He's not a real big man
(45:35):
tall anyway, but he's very thick and he's very fast.
But he's one of the meanest men that I've ever
I've ever met. Off the fields, he's uh, you know,
as gentle as they come, and that's really surprising. You
look at all the guys that played in Chicago, guys
like Doug Plank, Uh, Mike Singletary, Wilber Marshall. I mean
(45:58):
to meet him off the field, it's it's just like, oh,
this guy is too nice to be a football player.
But they put on a helmet and some paths and uh,
they'll hit anything that moves, and they did for a
long time. But Wilbur was He's I've been asked that
a lot, but he's the one guy would not want
to get blasted by or blindsided. I'd like to see
(46:18):
him coming so I can get down last question. Any uh,
if we go back, Jim too, that any play in
your career when you can got it back, if you'd
want it over again. It's for one, Uh, it would
probably be the play that I blew my arm out
against Cleveland the opening game in because that's when that's
(46:45):
when all this riff between myself and Dan Hampton and
and uh, Mike Dicken and everybody else. Nobody on the
offense was upset that I was hurt. But this this
one play, I hurt my arm and h had I
just got it taken care of. After that play sat
out the rest of the year. I think all this
(47:07):
other stuff between myself and hamp and everybody else who
got upset about whether or not I was hurt or
didn't want to play and this and that. Uh, I
take that play out and and get rid of the
ball sooner, so I wouldn't have fell on my arm
the way I did and and screwed it up because
Uh Singletary asked me that last last summer I was
(47:28):
in training camp, and he says, is there anything that
you do differently, you know, over your career? And I said,
I would have got operated on the day after that
football game, because then I wouldn't have had all this
trouble between you and and everybody on the defensive side
of the football, because that was just uh I could had.
I just couldn't understand why they didn't feel that I
(47:49):
was hurt, you know, And I played hurt all those
years before, and it was very frustrating to me, very
frustrating to everybody. But when I finally went and got
my arm looked at by a real doctor, UH, he says,
your arm is gone. I said, I've been telling him
that for ten weeks, but they they just didn't want
(48:11):
to believe it, but that would be the play. I
can't even remember. It was late in the game, and
I just had kind of rolled out and dumped the
ball and got hit and landed on it. And in fact,
Keith found Horn asked me, says you all right, And
I said, I just blew out my shoulder. I knew
at the time, but um, that's the one I'd take
out and just scratch it out, all right. That's it.
(48:36):
By the way, after that shoulder injury, McMahon's arm was
never the same. Look. McMahon's a fascinating character, but he
has a complicated legacy. His persona made him appear more
popular and polarizing than his actual on field performance. Consider
that over his fifteen year playing career, he never even
(48:56):
passed for three thousand yards in a single season. He
never even played a full sixteen game season. The fifteen
touchdowns he through we're the most in a single year
for his entire career, and yet his legacy in Chicago,
really in NFL history, lives on longer than some of
the other quarterbacks that have the stats, but not the
(49:17):
ring or the mouth for that matter. Mcmahn retired following
the nineteen ninety six season after two years backing up
Red Farv in Green Bay. He even got a ring
after the Packers beat the Patriots. Eleven years to the
day after his eighty five Bears beat New England in
one last act of rebellion, McMahon actually showed up at
(49:40):
the White House for the Packers ring ceremony wearing his
Bears jersey. He said it was because the Bears never
got their opportunity to visit the White House in nine six.
Next week we have another larger than life figure, but
one who backed up his bravado on the field and
earned three Super Bowl rings. The loquaceous former Cowboy number
(50:03):
eighty eight Michael Evan, who I've had the pleasure of
working with at both ESPN and NFL Network. I sure
hope you'll join us. Thanks for listening. I'm Andrea Kramer.
Tales from the Vault is a production of the NFL
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to NFL Films
Tales from the Vault. I'm your host, Hall of Fame
journalist Andrea Kramer. The late president of NFL Film Steve Sable,
was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in
the summer of For nearly fifty years, he was the
(00:27):
heart and soul of NFL Films. Over that time, Steve
conducted hundreds of interviews with the greatest figures in NFL history.
On this podcast, you'll get to hear from them raw,
unedited in their entirety for the first time. My role,
I'm sort of at the tour guide, you know, holding
your hand as we step into the time capsule, providing context,
(00:49):
insights and the occasional anecdote from my time covering these
men who played the game, as Steve like to call them.
This week, we have Steve's interview with the famed Punky
QB the Bears Jim McMahon. Yeah. Yeah. In the summer
(01:17):
of NFL Films began production on a special tenth anniversary
celebration of one of the most iconic Super Bowl champions,
in NFL history Chicago Bears. At the center of the
episode was an interview done by Steve Sable with the
leader of that team, well one of the leaders anyway,
(01:38):
quarterback Jim McMahon. At this point in his career, McMahon
was on his fifth different teams since leaving the Bears
following the season. The bulk of this interview takes place
indoors on location in Chicago, where Steve and Jim Delvan
and the nuts and bolts of the season, but we
begin with them on the shores of Lake Michigan with
(02:00):
the city behind them as they set the scene for
the anniversary show with a quick little Q and a
sort of consider this the appetizer for the full meal
yet to come. So let's go to the vault for
Steve Sable and Jim McMahon. Hi, I'm Steve Sable and
I'm in Chicago today and joining me as a co
host on today's show is the former quarterback of the
(02:22):
world champion Chicago Bears, Jim McMahon. Jim, you know and Jim.
Carl Sandberg once wrote about this city. He said that
the Chicago is coarse, strong, and cunning. That's a pretty
good description of your old team in that I think so.
I think our team was fits every one of those
words and probably a few more. Now, when I think
(02:45):
of your team, I think of you know, the forty
six defense, think of yourself, think of the refrigera. I
think a Mike did get to Now, what was it
like to play for a coach like that? Well, Mike
was a very intense individual. He's I would have loved
to play with him because he was a great football
player in his attitude, but play form at times was
It was a little tough. Now as a fan, I
always just remember, you know, I'm raging along the sidelines.
(03:07):
Do you ever remember any specific temper tantrums that he
had that you still remember? Now, we had a We
had quite a few runnings on the sidelines, but there
was one one story in particular. And three We're playing
in Baltimore. We lost in overtime and he came in
the locker room, is very upset, and he just turned
and he punched a punched a locker and as he hitted,
(03:29):
he turned to Vince Evans and said, Vinny lead him
in prayer, and Doc, I need to see you in
the bathroom next day. He walks in with the cast.
Uh did Get and McMahon just two of the innumerable
characters on those great eighties Bears teams, many of whom
will be hearing more great stories about as you listen
to this interview. And to keep me from jumping in
(03:51):
every two minutes and disrupting the flow, let me remind
you of everything that happened. So I'll give you a
brief overview. Bears went fifteen and one in the regular season.
The great Walter Payton was their star running back, Mike
Singletary Samurai. Mike was the leader of the most feared
and arguably best defense in NFL history. And if you
(04:12):
doubt that, just ask any of those players themselves. Mike
Ditko was the head coach, and the colorful Buddy Ryan
Well he actually considered himself the head coach of the defense.
McMahon actually played for Buddy in both Philadelphia and Arizona,
but Buddy was entitled the Bears defensive coordinator. Then there
was the Fridge William Refrigerator Perry, larger than life and
(04:34):
on the field at three hundred and fifteen pounds, which
was unique for a defensive line back then. McMahon's health
was also a big part of that season, and in fact,
Steve will ask Jim about the Week three game against
the Vikings when an injured McMahon took over mid game
and led the Bears to victory. And of course, who
(04:55):
can forget the Monday night game against the Miami Dolphins.
So let's hear about it all and go back to
the vault. And you went into training town in was
there a feeling in that training camp, if you could
go back, that sort of said, you know this, we
might have something special here there or or or was
this something that sort of developed during the course of
the season. Now I think it it started in eighty four,
(05:19):
or actually in eighty three. We won the last i
think six of the last seven games in eighty three
and started getting the field for how good we were
going to be. And then in eighty four we came
out and and uh, we went to the playoffs, went
to the NFC Championship game. In eighty four, we we
knew that we had a pretty good football team. And
then in eighty five it just all seemed to come together.
(05:42):
We went into camp with a feeling that, hey, we
can we can get to the next step and go
to the Super Bowl. We started out, I think, if
I remember right, we opened up with Tampa Bay and
they were beating us at halftime to fourteen or something,
and we eventually came back and beat them, and then
uh played the Patriots the second game of the year,
(06:03):
beat them, and then I think the turning point of
the season came on a Thursday night game against Minnesota.
They were one and one at the time, we were
two and oh, and had they beaten us, uh, things
might have been differently. But that's the game that I
came off the bench and our Dick could finally let
me play and turned it around and won that ball
(06:24):
game and then just got on a roll from there.
And that game against the Vikings. What was why couldn't
you play well? I'd gotten hurt in the Patriot game
week before. I was in the hospital and traction all week.
I had my neck and my upper back were SPASMI
and uh so I didn't get out of hospital till Wednesday,
and that's the day we left to go up to Minnesota.
(06:45):
And Mike just said, you know, you're not playing. You know,
he haven't been to practice, you haven't done anything. And
I'm convinced to this day. The only reason he put
me in the game was to get me off the
sideline because I was bugging the hell out of him.
I just kept saying, look, this thing is slipping away.
You better let me play, and eventually he just said,
get your ass in there and and go to it.
(07:07):
But that was That was a fun game and a
fun year. I remember one of those touchdown passes that
Peyton had a hell of a block. Do you remember that.
That was the first play that I went in. The
play was actually a screen pass um but as I
come away from the center, I stumbled a bit and
that's when Walter came in and blocked the blitzing linebacker.
(07:27):
And I saw the blitz coming, so I knew the
screen wasn't gonna be any good. You know, they're a
man and man coverage in the screen, and I just
happened to look downfield and Willie Gott was running his
man off and he got behind him. So I just
let it go and we scored. In fact, Dick asked
me when I when I got to the sidelines, he goes,
what play did you call? I said, well, I called
the screen, Mike, but that's not gonna be any good
(07:47):
against the Blitz. I just threw it to him. Uh,
And that's how that that game worked. It just kind
of improvised and I got it done. When you go
back to training camp, what did you first think when
you saw Parrot? I mean, did you think, oh, ship,
what is this some sort of joke? Or did you
see or did you see the guy see it? Maybe
the guy could help us? Well, he was. He wasn't
(08:08):
as big as he is now. I mean he was
he was fairly trimmed for for William. I mean he
was maybe about three fifteen three twenty, which was which
is a good weight for him. Uh, he's he's since
ballooned up a little bit. But the guy had amazing
quickness for a big man, you know, and he and
he he blocked the holes. I mean the guy took
(08:29):
up a lot of space and took two people to
block him. And that that freed up guys like Bent
and McMichael and Hampton and and everybody else we had
come in that year. And Uh, although he didn't play
much defense that first year, if I can remember right,
I know Buddy Ryan wasn't real high on him. But
Buddy really busted his balls to a practice. I mean
our stories, It just wrote him. Yeah, you think Ryan
(08:50):
didn't want the guy in the first place, or that
he was I don't think it was. It was Buddy's
one of Buddy's choices for one, and uh, and then
he was. He was not in the kind of shape
that Buddy likes his guys to be in. He works
as defensive players pretty hard and keeps some in good shape.
And I don't think he felt that William was going
to be able to hold up. When you one of
(09:11):
the things when when you practice, you would practice against
Buddy's defense. You think that helped that the offense at all,
to practice against the defense, or maybe it didn't because
nobody else ever played defense like that. Well, it helped
us because it uh, I think it made us tougher offensively,
because having to try to block these guys, you know,
I get tell him, Look, if we can block our
own defense, we shouldn't have any problem with anybody else
(09:32):
in the league. Because we had a great defensive line
and and we had linebackers that were coming all the time,
and safeties and and so it made us a lot
more alert offensively, and so we were ready for anything.
Come Sunday in in nineteen six three. I remember I
just started as a cameraman. I remember as the championship
game and did get Embers in. All that did was
(09:53):
paying tight end. And that was the year that Bears
offense had Billy Wade. It really had no offense at
all and another great defense. And I remember being ounce
of the locker room and somebody asked, Didcot before the
game something about the defense? And he turned around he says,
I funk that defense. We got an offense too, and
he was Was there a rivalry like that with you
guys that or was there a respect or was I
(10:14):
mean a lot of teams that have great defense or
great offenses, there's there's a constant friction between the two
with your team. Was it like that or was it
or was there a feeling that, look, you know, we're
both rolling this together, or was there some sort of rivalry?
But now I think when I first got to Chicago
and eighty two, that's all we anybody ever heard about
was how good our defense was, you know, and it
(10:35):
was defense this and defense that. And I think I
got along pretty well with most of the guys on
the defense, and I tried to relate to them. You know,
you can't win by yourself. You know, we're we're going
to have to do something offensively for us to uh
to go all the way. And I think our offense
was very underrated that year. I think we we held
the ball for you know, close to forty minutes a game. Uh,
(10:57):
we scored a lot of points. Um, you know, we
didn't we didn't have a lot of turnovers. And I think, uh,
in something like nine of the sixteen games, we we
scored first and to give our defensive lead, that's pretty
much all they needed. And uh, but I think we
complimented each other well because we kept them fresh, we
(11:17):
scored points, got ahead, and then that's then let them
do their thing. But we were very underrated offensively, and
I think that's that's surprised a lot of people. We
had a hell of an offensive line. Like I said,
we controlled the football most of the game and got
got points. Are enough points for us to win, and
that's you know, you gotta have it. You can't have
just one side and not the other, or else you're
(11:39):
not gonna win. You know, Miami's proved that over the
years with Marino. You know, best offensive football probably, and
they can't win UM teams like Denver, they've been the
Super Bowl. You know, you have to have balance on
both sides of the ball or you're not gonna win it.
You mentioned Miami and that was one of the I
think one of the highest rated money night games in
history when you guys were going for that undefeated season
(12:00):
and you played the Dolphins. What do you remember about
that game? I remember that woldn't play me that game.
Uh again, I was I had heard an ankle the
week before, but I was much healthier that following week
than I wasn't in Minnesota, and Mike just said, you know,
you're not playing tonight. You haven't practiced again. That I
think that didn't practice rule only related to me because
(12:24):
guys on the defense, you know, they didn't practice a week,
but they got to play. UM. You know, it was
it was very frustrating to sit there and watch what
happened that night happened because uh, you know, they got
up got up on us a little bit, and we're
trying to throw the football. Steve Fuller, who's who I
thought was a heck of a quarterback. Uh, we we
(12:44):
just didn't have a throwing offense, and we were running
football team play action pass and uh we tried to
keep up with Miami through the air, which I thought
was ridiculous. And at the time, Walter was going for
his ninth or tenth yard game in a row, and
I thought that was much more important than than win
in the football and we're already in the playoffs. I
would have been great to go defeated, but I think
(13:06):
the way that thing happened was just it was sad,
you know, But I think that that was kind of
a wake up call for us. Look, we can be
beat and I think it really got us to focus
a lot more down the stretch. You have to truly
understand the significance of that Dolphins Bears game. The Bears
were twelve and oh and back then there had been
no team since the seventy two undefeated Dolphins to even
(13:30):
start a season with twelve wins in a row. This
game was considered really a speed bump to an undefeated season.
Was really the last team that the Bears were going
to face that could keep them from going undefeated. So
there were huge steaks here on this Monday night. Going
into this game, the Bears were a Juggernaut that it
allowed three points total in their previous three games, and
(13:53):
here comes Dan Marino and the Dolphins trying to knock
them off and preserve the legacy of their predecessors, that
famous Miami team from a decade before. Well, as much
as McMahon may or may not have made a difference,
the Dolphins put up thirty eight points on the NFL's
best defense. When we come back, mcmahonn tell Steve about
(14:15):
his conflicts with Ditka. Ditka McMahon conflict, No, I'd never
believe that. Plus the story of the Rolling Stone cover shoot,
Stay tuned, Welcome back to Tails from the Vault. Say
what you will about Mike Ditka the coach. His record
does speak for itself, but it always seemed like he
(14:36):
was feuding with someone. It was Dicka versus the media,
versus his players, Buddy Ryan, and even yes, Jim McMahon.
For McMahon's part, consider that coming out of such a
tightly wound culture at b y U, he was expecting
life in the NFL to be a little less restrictive,
but that was not the case under head coach Mike Ditka. Plus,
(14:58):
Ditka liked being the bad guy he thought it gave
him an edge, as evidenced by the quote you're about
to hear. I had a quote that season he said
something about, you know, they're they're fair haired teams and
they're not fair air teams, and their teams that are
named Smith and their teams that are named Grobovski and
we're Grobovski's what what do you what do you think?
How did you interpret that? I tried not to interpret
(15:22):
anything might had to say. I mean it was I
guess that was his way of saying that we had
a bunch of tough guys that you know, we're gonna
line up and play no matter what. And which we were,
I mean we we had we had a lot of uh,
pretty intimidating individuals, both on both sides of the football. Now,
our offensive line didn't take crap from anybody, even our
(15:43):
own guys. There was a lot of fights in practice,
and offensively we did pretty well in those. Um. I
think there was a great respect between both sides of
our our our team, and I think that's why we
we played together on Sundays and we had a great
time off the field. I think that's that's the thing
that we all kind of remember the most is how
(16:04):
much phone we had off the field. We still came
came to play on Sunday, but once the game was over,
I mean we we knew how to have fun and
we did. Um, you changed them about it. It's really
interesting that I remember doing a piece on quarterbacks and
coaches and you go back through history from autogram and
you never got along with Paul Brown. Roger Stolbach was
terrified at Land brad Shaw to this day hates Chuck Nols.
(16:28):
Why is it the quarterbacks and head coaches? And again,
I mean just you and I are talking, there seems
to be some sort of friction. Is that because the
quarterback really this is my team with the coaches saying
this is my team? How would you describe your would
your relationship with Mike fit into sort of that same
traditional mold where you have a quarterback who's a real
leader and a coach who wants you see when you
(16:48):
look through history, you seem to seeing that that always
seems to happen. And even with my time and Bill Waltson, well,
I think, uh, for one thing, I don't think he
understood me very well. I mean he thought that I
didn't put enough effort in. I didn't watch enough film him.
I didn't do this, I didn't do that. But for
what we were doing, I mean, you could around our offense.
(17:10):
I mean it didn't take a whole lot of brains
to turn around give the ball to Wally thirty times
a game. Um, where we had our problems is what
he was calling the place. I mean, he called plays
like a tight end would call a play. It was
really no rhyme or reason, it seemed like. And a
lot of times the play that was sent in was
not the one that I called, and that kind of
(17:34):
upset him a little bit. But you know, I feel,
I feel that I have a good grasp of of
the game of football, and I I think I was
a lot further ahead than most people coming out of
college because of where I went to school. We threw
the ball thirty five times a game. You know, I
was able to look and see what was happening on
the defensive side of the ball. Where a lot of
(17:54):
guys are turning around giving the ball to running backs,
they don't learn a lot of what's going on. So
I felt that I, you know, I had a good
grasp of what we needed to do and uh and
as a rookie, I changed a lot of plays and
are called audibles, and because that's the way I was taught.
And uh, you know, when you've got nine guys on
this side of the ball, why try to run it
(18:14):
over there? We're we're notorious third and long, We're gonna
run a sweep. And everybody in the league knew it.
And uh so I wouldn't change it, you know, run
the other way and we'd get a lot of first
downs and uh, you know I talked to Walter about it,
and he said, hey, just keep doing what you're doing.
You're saving me, you know. Uh, you know, it's it's
to me. This game is not that hard, and everybody
(18:36):
tries to over analyze it, and uh, you know, we
gotta do this and you got to do that. It's
it's like a chess game, you know, try to try
to go where they're not. And that's that's basically what
I've tried to do my whole career. Well, when you
would come off the field after that, what would what
would did to say to you about that? I mean,
what with with there? Well, we had our words. I mean,
there was a lot of a lot of toe to
(18:57):
toe discussions, uh, during the games. But you know, Mike
had a tendency to fly off the handle. But then
he said something to him that will snap him out
of it. He kind of really, Okay, well that's why
he did that. Or during the film sessions on Monday,
he'd say, well, I see now why you did what
you did. But at the time, you know, he just
(19:17):
would blow up and and then I'd blow up and
then it just kind of blow over after that. But
do you think that because it did could be in
the way he was it? Actually he was sort of
an unusual personality if you were unusual. Singletary was Hampton.
And when you look the whole team, you think that
that was good because it brought a lot of sparks
together and that in turn maybe he made his team better.
(19:39):
Had another and you have Buddy Ryan thrown into the mix.
I mean, do you think that that if you'd had
a coach like a Ted Marcher Broda for somebody, you
think the team would have been just as good? Well?
I think, I mean, we had the best players in
the league. I mean you look over the years, Uh,
the teams that win pretty much have the best talent
(20:00):
and I think we were as talented as anybody. But
I think all those distractions, know Buddy and Nitkin would
get into it every every game, uh Dicken and myself
or you know, if somebody was always chomping at the
bit at each other. But you know, we we as
a as a team, as players, you know, we decided
we're gonna win in spite of all this that's going
(20:22):
on because we knew we were pretty good, pretty damn good,
and uh so we didn't we didn't let that stuff
bother us, and we let them say whatever they wanted
to say. But when we got on the field, I
had the last day in the offensive huddle and Mike
had the last day in the defensive huddles. So we
just said, you know, let's let's just get it done
for ourselves. When uh you look at that that whole
(20:45):
team and the personality of one of the things was interesting.
As you see, now, celebrities sort of attracted, you know,
are attracted. Did you have any celebrities that you noticed
would show up at the games and sort of want
to align themselves with with your with with your team.
And I remember Bill Murray being on the sidelines. A
couple of times. Uh. In fact, he was there during
the playoff games. And uh, Johnny McEnroe, who was a
(21:08):
friend of Kenny margin from college, he was there a
few times. Other than that, I didn't see too many
other people. I try not to to look around the sidelines,
and I try to worry about what's on the field.
But um, sure there was somewhat. I mean, you were
on the cover of rollingst Mean what was that? Like?
Did they do you remember what that happened that when
they called because at that time people were laughing, said
(21:30):
you were on a few players are probably ever read
Rolling Stone and knew what the hell it was? I mean,
did you when they called you up and talk to you?
What do you remember anything about that? And said, wow,
what you know? What do you want me on the
cover for Rolling Stone? Well? That's that actually came from
Keith van Horn. It was a big music buff and
and uh he said, hey, you got to try to
do a cover. So I had my attorney call, or
(21:50):
they call. I don't know how it came about, but um,
I told me the only way I would do it
is if if Keith and Kurbecca were on the cover
with me. And uh, they screwed that up too, But
you know, they took pictures of Keith and I and
Kurt and it was happening down in New Orleans just
before the Super Bowl is when they took all the shots.
But you know, they put them in the magazine, but
(22:11):
they didn't put them on the cover with me, so
I kind of bought me out. Do you remember what
that shoot was like, because those I just curious because
those cover shoots are usually a big good I just
remember being in some hotel room down in New Orleans.
We did we did the shots, and then we had
the guy who wrote the article kind of followed us
around until we ditched them, you know, and it was
(22:33):
that was just a crazy week, you know, all that
stuff that happened with the with the reporter saying that
I said this and that about the women in New Orleans,
and I was just happy to get out of town alive.
I'm glad the game was over and glad the season
was over. It was it was a hectic year. McMahon
always seemed to court controversy, but with the eyes of
(22:54):
the sporting world laser focused on the Super Bowl, everything's
magnified and McMahon was at the epicenter of it all,
a false TV report in New Orleans incorrectly quoted McMahon
is saying New Orleans is the dirtiest city I've ever seen.
The people are stupid and the women are sluts. That
report led to death threats and protests by women's groups
(23:16):
outside the team hotel. The next day, the TV station
issued a retraction and an apology, but the damage was done.
And to add injury to insult McMahon, who was suffering
from a deep buttock bruise, you got it, a legitimate
pain in the ass. McMahon mooned a helicopter, ostensibly to
(23:38):
show the world where he was hurt, as if the
world was better off seeing Jim McMahon's butt. Needless to say,
it was never a dull moment with McMahon, much to
the team, and did because chagrin, and of course we
haven't even heard about the Super Bowl shuffle, the vaunted headband.
But just you wait here. It all comes because I
(23:59):
remember that you said you call the women or something. Well,
that's that's what it is, Jesus, that's what the guy said.
I said, And it supposedly happened at six in the
morning and some interview, and guys that knew me knew
I wasn't getting up for any damn interview at six
o'clock in the morning. UM. I don't know what it was.
The guy had for had it out for me, but
(24:21):
you know, I was having fun in New Orleans. I
mean we got down there what Monday, Uh so Tuesday
and Wednesday, you know, we were having a great time
and and all of a sudden Thursday morning, I got up,
I went down to breakfast, and Jerry Venisi came up
to me and said, you really did it this time.
And I had no idea what the hell he was
talking about. Um. And then Mike Ditka came up to
(24:44):
me and said, did you say that? And I said,
say what? I still had no idea what was going on.
And uh, finally my attorney caught up with me and
he says, hey, this this thing came out, and do
you know did you do this or did you say this?
I said, I don't know what they're talking about. I
didn't do the interview. I didn't say you know, even
if I had that thought, I would never say that
to a reporter. But uh, you know, so I went
(25:06):
back up to my room and my attorney says, look,
you gotta go down and face the press. I go, wife, wife,
face the press. I mean, hell, they're they're saying whatever
the hell they want to say anyway, you know, just
let him say it. But so I finally went down
and said, look, you know, all you people in this
room want to believe that I did this interview and
call the women sluts and this and that, but unfortunately
(25:27):
I didn't. And uh so if you believe me, fine,
if not, I don't give a ship. You know, we
got a game to play, and I'm not gonna let
this be a distraction, you know, to myself or the team.
And ah, well that's just how the That's basically how
the whole year went, you know, people saying whatever they
wanted to say about us, and and we didn't care.
We just showed up on Sunday and just beat people.
(25:50):
What about to think of the helicopter? What was that
that story about that was that true? Well we're yeah,
that was true, but the guy was just kind of
hovering around right during our stretched time. And and uh
at that time, my ass was still about that big
from the from the head I took, and uh, I
just kind of showed him where it was. That was it? Well,
(26:10):
I didn't think it was that big a deal. But
you guys in the press, I'll tell you all right,
how about you see you guys in the press. How
about the whole thing with a Super Bowl shuffle? When
when that started that when they came to didn't you
think wait a second, we hadn't want anything yet, and
then we're going to really come off as as really
cocky when this thing but that you just figure we'll
(26:31):
ship We're good enough. I don't even ship any but
let's do it because it was fun. Or how did
that ever happen? Well, it started as a as a
fundraiser thing for the for the needy people in Chicago
around Christmas time. Um, I really wasn't that interested in
doing it. Uh, you know, we we went ahead and
cut the record, and uh, I had told him at
(26:53):
the time, look, I'm not doing any any video or
anything else until after, you know, we get through with
this year, because I knew what kind of impact that
would have on the teams were playing and around the league.
But so we went, we did the record, and all
of a sudden, now they're saying, okay, we gotta do
the video along with the record, you know, and we
had told him before, look, we're not going to do it.
(27:14):
And in fact, I didn't show up to the video shoot.
Uh Peyton didn't show up either, and the rest of
the guys did the thing, and uh, in fact, you
can you can kind of tell in the video that
Walter and I are super imposed in that thing, because
I don't know where they did the video at, but I,
me and Walter did our parts in the racquetball court
at Hollis Hall. And in fact, they were gonna sue us.
(27:36):
Willie Galt and is the guy who started this thing.
We're gonna sue us had we not done done the part.
So eventually we did it, and uh, I'm just glad
it didn't it didn't backfire. But we had fun with it.
You know, a lot of people still um talk about that.
You know, I signed a lot of those little record
things that people have in these autograph shows and stuff
(27:58):
like that. But I thought it was a little kind
of embarrassing, but you know, that's the way it goes.
How about when I need to get back to the
thing for the Super Bowl? What about the headband? I mean,
there's another thing that created. I mean, wasn't the cover
of every magazine in the newspapers when just starting where'd
you where'd you get that idea? How did that? I
started wearing a headband back in college. Uh, I just
(28:20):
don't like warren A Helmett. I mean rubs, rub scrap
out of your forehead. And uh I started wearing it
just to keep the skin on my head, you know.
And I wore it all year long. Uh nobody ever
said a word to me during the season about it.
It had Adidas on it all year long. And then
suddenly now we're in the playoffs and now it's a
big deal. And uh they said they were gonna find me,
(28:43):
which they did. Um. They said it was free advertising
for the televisions. You don't hear that in the golf
tournaments or the tennis tournaments. Guy's got I mean, it's
there's stuff all over that's free advertising. But because the
NFL wasn't getting a cut, we couldn't do this. That's
that's the that's the big problem with those, uh the
rules that they have, it's ridiculous. They don't get their cut,
(29:05):
then you can't do it. So, you know, they said
they're gonna find me. And then the following week we're
playing in the championship game. Um, I came out with
the Adidas went on, and the ref told me, he says,
you can't you know, you can't wear that. Um So
I went back in the locker room and I decided.
In fact, Mike McCaskey was said, hey, why don't you
(29:26):
put George Hollis's name on there or my name? You know,
and that wasn't going to be a good idea, So
we just decided to throw Rosel's and he can't find
me for giving him advertising. I thought, so h It
actually worked out pretty well and I got a lot
of a lot of kudos for that one. But it
happened the same way the same way in the Super Bowl.
(29:47):
I said I couldn't wear it, and but Adidas gave
me fifty thousand reasons to wear it. So you know,
I went out and warm ups and had it on,
and the referee says, I can't let you out in
the field with that on your head, and so I decided, well,
there's no rule of it's neck bands. So I just
pulled the damn thing all the way down to my neck.
(30:08):
I wore it all game, and he says, well, there
is no rule about that. So the following year that
came out with a lot of different rules for me
and whoever else wanted to try to take advantage of
the system. But you had a Friend's Day or something,
or for the Super Bowl, I had, Uh, I mean
I got sent thousands of these things. I mean some
(30:28):
of just people's names on them. But I chose a
lot of charities. Um, I figured they can't find me
for charities because that's what basically the NFL, and there
the charity program they have. I mean, what what's the
big deal? So I ended up wearing a lot of
different charities and then I had one that said Pluto
on it for I got it. I played college football
with who had ended up having a brain tumor ended
(30:51):
his career. He's still alive, thankfully, but it ended his career.
So I just thought I'd put that on there for
him and let him know I was thinking about him,
and it worked out pretty well. Did Roselle ever call
you himself? Because he sort of had a sense of
humor about certain things, I wondered, I did. I talked
to him at at the Pro Bowl that year, and uh,
(31:12):
we gotta laugh at out of it. He actually thanked
me for the free advertising that he got U but
he did. He had a good sense of humor about it,
and I like it all worked out well. And I
can't imagine a player taunting the commissioner today. I mean,
after all, that's what Twitter's for, right igest. But after
(31:33):
witnessing how the entire Bears team seemingly sidestepped one media
mindfield after another, it's even more amazing how they dominated
despite the distractions of the season and the Super Bowl itself.
When we come back, Jim McMahon spills the dirt on
Buddy versus dita. Welcome back to Tales from the Vault.
(31:56):
So in today's game, there are just a few teams
that actually have co coordinators. You know, one mate handle
the passing game and one may handle the running game.
But there's never, of course been co head coaches, except
if you ask Buddy Ryan about the Bears. Now, I
mentioned this to you before that Buddy considered himself the
(32:18):
head coach of the defense. He also told me one
time that he actually knew more about offenses than offensive coaches,
since he's the one that had to devise schemes to
stop them. But I will point out that with Ditka
and Buddy, it was the only time in NFL history
that two men were carried off the field on the
(32:39):
shoulders of their players after winning a Super Bowl. There's
no question that the dynamic between these two strong individuals
was truly something to behold. As we're about to hear
from Jim McMahon, you were talking before about the coaches
and Steven and one of the big things about that
team was that the personalities between Buddy and Mike, and
(33:01):
it was that true that there were that they didn't
talk during the year. I mean that was sort of
true when George Allen was a defensive word there with
the parents house. I mean, George Allen wouldn't even show
howist defensive game plan. So I don't think that was
unique for just this Chicago team. But when you were playing,
did it seems sort of strange to you that the
relationship are You really just figured, well, this is part
of this team and we have a lot of characters,
(33:22):
and we got two coaches in our character. It was
the first time I saw it was it was kind
of like, wow, I didn't know this went on, you know,
I thought, this guy's the head coach and supposed to
do this and that, and Buddy says, look, I run
a defense here. You know, I was here before you
got here. You didn't hire me, and you can't fire me,
so get out of my face. I mean that was
(33:43):
that was a little strange at first, but then we
just got used to it. I mean it happened every week.
There was always at one point in some game that
somebody break free and complete a long pass or get
along score on us. But that usually, you know, didn't
bother us because we were so far ahead. Um So
Mike would run over and say, why don't you play
any damn zone once in a while, you know, And
Buddy said, I get that here, I'm running this to
(34:07):
this defensive team. But as soon as Buddy left, we
got a guy in by the name of Vince Tobin
the following year, and people would just be completing balls
on us down the field and they can run up
and said, why don't you blitz sometime? Because he played
too much? So, I mean, that's you couldn't make him happy.
Interesting about Buddy Ryan, when he came to Phil Oflphie
(34:27):
before you were there, he seemed even the piste off
the offensive players on his own of his own team.
I mean when he was there with with you, I mean,
did some new guys an offensive? Why? The son of
a bitch? You know what? Why is he? You know
he does he's like intimidating us. And he said he's
an insulting us. Or or did that make you guys
play better? Or did you or you had a sort
of an interesting relationship with Buddy right well, I got
along wealth well with Buddies from day one when I
(34:49):
got here in Chicago, and uh, I don't know what.
I think he just liked my attitude or the way
I played. I don't know what it was. But we've
we've got along real well over the years. But he, uh,
he did he can screw up an offense because he
doesn't care about offense. I mean, but he just does
not care. You know, even back in uh I played
(35:10):
for him in Phoenix this year and he said, he
told our coordinator, just don't turn the ball over. We'll
score on defense and we'll win. I mean, we had
some pretty good offensive talent, but he just does not care.
He wants all the focus on his defense, and that's it. Period,
and I was to say, you had that book that
was christ the best seller for it was in the
New York Times best seller list. That's still I think
(35:30):
the number one selling biography. And the next one will
be better. Slam all in bastadors next time. Okay, that
was a question about you know the book. Where you
were when that came out? Where you surbayor it was,
you know, it was like the Bridges of Madison County
and then here you have your book was a number
one when the best seller list. I mean, when you
(35:52):
were doing the book, did you ever think that it
was gonna be an that that big a deal? Well,
when they approached me to do the book, uh, I
thought it was a little bit premature. I only played
four years and and uh but there was so much
said had been written and said about me at the time,
and then the thing happened in New Orleans. Uh. I
wanted people to get a true understanding of what I'm
(36:14):
all about to tell it in my own words, and
I thought by doing a book that, you know, maybe
people would have a little better understanding of who who
the hell Jim McMahon is, and you know where I
came from and um, you know, I just I still
get a lot of comments about how you know people
enjoyed it, and it was that wasn't my favorite subjects
(36:39):
that they're talking about myself for that amount amount of time.
But I just wanted to set the record straight and
then let people judge for themselves rather than reading reading
something in the newspaper, seeing something on television about these
guys opinions about me. It's a tough question, Ford ask,
But you was a quarterback. In the personality, we're a
lot different. You have other quarterbacks, and I mean somebody
(37:01):
once said, was see that Roger Stoback after the chorus,
there's a cant system and then you have the top
of the as a quarterback is the top of the
cast system and he's sort of separate. But your whole
approach was totally different than that. And every team you've
been with, you get a response from your team like, no,
none of the other quarterbacks, I mean, the guys that
play for you. Is that something that that you you
(37:22):
do you realize that or is this you know, this
is the way I am and I choose my friends
whoever I want, and this is what I enjoy playing
the game, or as a quarterback, you're supposed to be
a leader. Do you did you realize as a quarterback
that this is is probably your greatest dress as a leader.
Remember Jumbo saying that when you took on, when you
were on the field, everybody the level of play race.
(37:43):
I mean, is that something as a quarterback that you
feel is just as important as your footwork or your
quick release or stuff like that. Well, I was even
growing up through uh, you know, a little league in
high school. I never I never tried to put myself
above anybody else. I mean, I was a position on
a football team, even though the quarterback is a very
(38:04):
important position. I don't feel that I carried myself that
I was better than anybody else. I wanted to be,
you know, one of the guys, because in order for
me to do my job, everybody else had to do theirs.
Because if the offensive line doesn't doesn't block, and I
don't care who the hell you are, you're not gonna win.
You're not gonna perform well. And and I relayed that
(38:27):
to them, I let them know, look, you know, without
you guys, I can't do my job. I'm nothing. And
I think the um they respected that because I didn't.
I didn't put myself above him. I put myself in
there with him, and I said, look, you guys do
your job and I'll do mine. And I think, uh,
I think it worked out well that way. It's been
that way my whole career, and it's gonna be that
way as long as I play. When you talk at
(38:49):
quarterbacks today, you have you know, Steve Young, it's a
great athlete. Brito has got a quick release. But anybody
you bring up your name, nobody talks about your arm
or that. It's all how fucking tough the guy. I
saw the guy play where he couldn't work. I saw
him walk into a good game where his arm was
swoll when he still I mean even Richie co tighter.
They still tell story. But that's something that you must realize.
(39:10):
That's gonna be something as valuable to you as a
leader as any physical skill is. It almost seemed to
me that you almost want to be hurt a little
bit because that you seem to raise the level of
your play when you're playing in pain. I mean you think,
do you think well first physically you have a pain threshold.
I mean, you are those guys that can you know,
stick pins in your hand and you don't feel it.
Or is it just the competitive nature that you get
(39:32):
in and you just can forget about Well, I think, Uh,
there's a lot happens on game day. I mean the
adrenaline starts to flow. I mean I couldn't do it
during the week. I mean I couldn't go out there
in practice with the pain that I was in at
certain points in my career. But uh, on game day,
it just seems like I forget about it. I mean
the adrenaline kicks in. Uh little health from the doctors,
(39:56):
I mean, you gotta have some numbing effect in there too.
But I always felt it if I can walk out
on the field, I'm gonna play. And uh, no matter
what kind of a shape I was in that I
felt that I can. I could do the job and
and I'm always able to block out a lot of
the pain. I mean once the game's over, then I
(40:16):
you know, sit there and try to analyze and go
why the hell do you keep doing this? But uh,
there's something about walking out of that tunnel on Sunday
that just it gets me gone. I mean I want
to be out there. I want to play. I hate
being a spectator. Um, that's been the roughest part of
my career is when I'm not able to play, to
have to sit there and watch the games and and
(40:36):
see the guys what they're going through, and and knowing
I could be out there helping them. Um, that's I'm
able to block that out and just say, hell, I
can play, coach, just let me in. And I think
guys respond to that because they see I'm out there
in the shape that I'm in, given everything I've got,
and I think, um, that does something to him. Last
(40:57):
few questions, A few single things about a few guys
that you've played with. This will be order. You know,
I remember him be a sort of a practical joker.
He was. He was one of the biggest jokers I've
ever met in sports. I mean, the guy was. It
seemed like he was always up doing something, you know,
whether it be m a d S in the locker
(41:18):
room or or outside your door, or coming around pinsion
you or or I mean, he's the strongest man I've
ever met in my life. I'll come up and grab you,
hug in and just take your breath away, break your
hand if he shook it hard enough. But he was
just a great, great person to play with a lot
of fun. I still see him a lot, and uh,
(41:40):
I'm just glad I was able to play with a
guy like that. And the Super Bowl, why do you
think that he got so upset when he scored? Touched him?
To me almost seemed like there's a guy it's gonna
g that's the greatest running back ever and and the
team blowing out this team and me, what what? Why
was it so important him? Do you think to score
a touchdown even it was just like a guilding glial. Well,
(42:01):
I think it's you know, he played for so long
and been uh he'd been the Chicago Bears for so
many years, and to see him not be able to
get in that end zone in the biggest game of
his life, I think it was it had to hurt.
I mean it hurt me not not being able or
not seeing him score a touchdown. I mean we had
(42:21):
some plays called. The first one that I scored on
was it was an option play. It was either me
or Walter was going to score the score the touchdown.
But you know, you look back at it, New England's
focus was Walter Payton. They said, we're gonna stop Walter Payton,
and they did a pretty good job. You know, I
don't think he got a hundred yards. I mean everywhere
he went there was two or three guys there with him.
(42:44):
The one player. I remember the first play of the
second half, when we were backed up in the end zone,
we had to play action passed that I hit Willie
Galt down. We had a big game. H I faked
the ball to Walter and you can see the whole
defensive football team go after him. And I think that's
that's really what hurt the New England Patriots in that game.
They focused so much on Walter. They forgot that we
(43:04):
had other pretty good offensive players. And I think that
was their downfall, worrying so much about Walter. They let
everybody else have a pretty good day. When you talk
about running backs, what did you first think when they
put the fridge in the backfield and do you think
that this is this is really silli er Did you think, well,
that's that all came about because of in the championship
game in Bill Walts did that to us. He put
(43:27):
Guy McIntyre in the backfield and and and ground the
ball out and wouldn't give it back to us. So
in order to get back at bill. Uh. In fact,
it was the following year we went out to play
San Francisco and uh, we're head late in the game
and they put Fridge in the backfield so we can
ground it out. And that was just that's how that started,
(43:48):
just to say, hey, we can do that too, or
you're not gonna one up me, I'm gonna get you back.
And that's the way it started. But then nobody thought
that he would become a folk here. I mean, or
did you realize that, hey, this this something, this this
could be something I would not want to tackle that man.
You know, you give him the all a little head
of steam. Another Monday night game against Green Bay, he
(44:08):
hit I don't know who it was, one of their linebackers,
and just it was actually kind of funny to watch
it on film. I know that guy didn't feel it
was very funny getting blasted like that, But that's a
that's a lot of man to try to take down
and that short in that short space, and it's actually
pretty good idea. And uh, but it ended the way
(44:29):
it ended up. I mean, the guy was just everybody
wanted the ball. Then Uh, it's uh, but in plus
I think in the Super Bowl, I think there was
a little money bet in Vegas of whether or not
he was going to score, and I think that's why
he got in there. Okay, Mike Sigletary on the hardest
working man I've ever played with, even in practice, all
(44:52):
out every play, and he turned himself into a great linebacker.
Because I know when he first he was a year
ahead of me here in Chicago, and Buddy Ryan was
not real high on him u from all the indications
that I had that uh you know, but he didn't
want him play, and he was a rookie. H he
couldn't learn the system. And Mike studied and studied and studied,
(45:14):
and he turned himself into a great football player. Umber Marshall,
that's the one guy that I would not want to
get hit by. Of all the people that I've played against,
he is the probably one of the meanest, h greatest
athletes I've ever seen. He's not a real big man
(45:35):
tall anyway, but he's very thick and he's very fast.
But he's one of the meanest men that I've ever
I've ever met. Off the fields, he's uh, you know,
as gentle as they come, and that's really surprising. You
look at all the guys that played in Chicago, guys
like Doug Plank, Uh, Mike Singletary, Wilber Marshall. I mean
(45:58):
to meet him off the field, it's it's just like, oh,
this guy is too nice to be a football player.
But they put on a helmet and some paths and uh,
they'll hit anything that moves, and they did for a
long time. But Wilbur was He's I've been asked that
a lot, but he's the one guy would not want
to get blasted by or blindsided. I'd like to see
(46:18):
him coming so I can get down last question. Any uh,
if we go back, Jim too, that any play in
your career when you can got it back, if you'd
want it over again. It's for one, Uh, it would
probably be the play that I blew my arm out
against Cleveland the opening game in because that's when that's
(46:45):
when all this riff between myself and Dan Hampton and
and uh, Mike Dicken and everybody else. Nobody on the
offense was upset that I was hurt. But this this
one play, I hurt my arm and h had I
just got it taken care of. After that play sat
out the rest of the year. I think all this
(47:07):
other stuff between myself and hamp and everybody else who
got upset about whether or not I was hurt or
didn't want to play and this and that. Uh, I
take that play out and and get rid of the
ball sooner, so I wouldn't have fell on my arm
the way I did and and screwed it up because
Uh Singletary asked me that last last summer I was
(47:28):
in training camp, and he says, is there anything that
you do differently, you know, over your career? And I said,
I would have got operated on the day after that
football game, because then I wouldn't have had all this
trouble between you and and everybody on the defensive side
of the football, because that was just uh I could had.
I just couldn't understand why they didn't feel that I
(47:49):
was hurt, you know, And I played hurt all those
years before, and it was very frustrating to me, very
frustrating to everybody. But when I finally went and got
my arm looked at by a real doctor, UH, he says,
your arm is gone. I said, I've been telling him
that for ten weeks, but they they just didn't want
(48:11):
to believe it, but that would be the play. I
can't even remember. It was late in the game, and
I just had kind of rolled out and dumped the
ball and got hit and landed on it. And in fact,
Keith found Horn asked me, says you all right, And
I said, I just blew out my shoulder. I knew
at the time, but um, that's the one I'd take
out and just scratch it out, all right. That's it.
(48:36):
By the way, after that shoulder injury, McMahon's arm was
never the same. Look. McMahon's a fascinating character, but he
has a complicated legacy. His persona made him appear more
popular and polarizing than his actual on field performance. Consider
that over his fifteen year playing career, he never even
(48:56):
passed for three thousand yards in a single season. He
never even played a full sixteen game season. The fifteen
touchdowns he through we're the most in a single year
for his entire career, and yet his legacy in Chicago,
really in NFL history, lives on longer than some of
the other quarterbacks that have the stats, but not the
(49:17):
ring or the mouth for that matter. Mcmahn retired following
the nineteen ninety six season after two years backing up
Red Farv in Green Bay. He even got a ring
after the Packers beat the Patriots. Eleven years to the
day after his eighty five Bears beat New England in
one last act of rebellion, McMahon actually showed up at
(49:40):
the White House for the Packers ring ceremony wearing his
Bears jersey. He said it was because the Bears never
got their opportunity to visit the White House in nine six.
Next week we have another larger than life figure, but
one who backed up his bravado on the field and
earned three Super Bowl rings. The loquaceous former Cowboy number
(50:03):
eighty eight Michael Evan, who I've had the pleasure of
working with at both ESPN and NFL Network. I sure
hope you'll join us. Thanks for listening. I'm Andrea Kramer.
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