126: The Mystery Of Sweet Peach

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's twelve am on a cursed YouTube channel and you're
listening to Night Call. Hello, and welcome to Night Call,
a college show for artist Tope in reality. My name
is Emma Lyyoshida. I am joined on the other line

(00:22):
by Molly Lambert and Tess Lynch and leader in the show.
We will be joined by our special guest, Sama calif.
He is the managing editor of Defector and was the
former managing editor of dead Spin. We will be talking
about all sorts of stuff, not limited to but including
international chihuahuas. Hi, guys, Hey, do you want to take

(00:43):
a nightcall real quick? Let's do it. Hello, nightcall um.
My name is Carlos. I am from the Bay Area
in California, sitting here as the world burns all around me.
I am calling because I listened to your Monday podcast
What is this Monday August went for us? And I
heard you ask us to call in about ghosts and
the supernatural, and I figured, okay, this is my chance

(01:06):
because it relates to my mother, who I can only
go so far as to call, I guess a good
witch and a channel or she. I grew up and
I grew up very very traditional conservative Mexican household, very
very Catholic. Um grew up going to church, you know,

(01:27):
was an ultimpley blah blah blah blah blood and every
now is the church sometime around my early team, but
growing up it was I can only go I can
only describe my religious upbringing as traditional and also cultish. Yeah,
so my mother growing up, we would go to the
spiritual medium in Sarina's every week where we would go

(01:50):
and then she would go into a trance and connect
to the spirit world and talk to our friends of
out their relatives that are gone or their ancestors that
they wanted to hear from. And this was just normal
for me. We would take cleansing trips to rivers near

(02:11):
where near Selina I believe, and where people would connect
to the spirit world and then they would be washed
of their sins and you would think that it was
that it would it was. It's hard to describe because
it wasn't a traumatic cult experience. It was almost a

(02:33):
boring and off and sometimes pleasant cult experience because they
didn't forces to participate in rituals other than we're going
to cleanse you and we're going to go swim in
the river, because the adults would have their big spiritual
connection in the kids would just kind of be an
up river just playing with each other, which I think

(02:54):
is unique because most people talk about their cult experiences
as being horrible and awful. And I actually came out
as queer when I was a teenager, and believe it
or not, my mother was very accepting. And to her
she said, oh, yes, I talked to the spirit world
because and they told me that you would have an
amazing balance of feminine and masculine energies and to accept me.

(03:17):
So thanks to the spirit realm, my mother learned to
love folks that across the LGBT spectrum and continues to
be one of my best friends to this day. Thank
you so much Carlos for this call. I Um, first
of all, I love the spirit world or allies. UM.

(03:38):
I think we all know this instinctively. But that's good
on them. UM. I would say, like, you know, I
know that you described it as cultish, but I think
that like when you talk about the the kind of
qualifiers for what occult is, and I think that you know,
we'll be talking about the vowel a little more later on,
and I think that this comes into that, like the
idea of like a high control um environment I think

(04:01):
is really paramount to something being a cult or not
like and I think that our our um our theology.
Buddy John also called it at one point to just
talk about the difference between like cult like beliefs, like
what we think of as being kind of fringe e
versus the actual way that the group works, and the
way that the group works is more I think makes

(04:22):
a cult. So I would say you were you were
in a cult, you were just like a really chill,
you know, strain of Catholicism because I was also I
was looking up like I was like, is this like
how you know commonplaces this like where does this kind
of medium aspect of Catholicism come in? And like all

(04:43):
I would run across where like the Catholicism dot com
sites that are just like mediums are bad. You can't
consult a medium, it's all evil. You're going to go
to hell if you do this um which is what
I you know, what you would think of as being
the standard response to that kind of thing. But also
Catholicism is kind of like the most magical of all
the Christianities. So I don't know. My parents left, um

(05:08):
were Irish or they were Irish Catholic, and most of
my extended families Irish Catholic. My parents were raised very religious,
and my aunt stayed in the church. Um, and she
was a really big fan of psychics, which you would
think she would not have been, but she was extremely,
um really really believed in psychics. I think when my

(05:31):
mom was pregnant, my aunt bought her a reading that
turned out to be like very true. And on my
dad's side, um, there's a lot of superstition. They were very,
very superstitious Catholic. So there's that's where you kind of like,
I mean, they wouldn't have seen a psychic or a medium,
but my dad, like you know, his knuckles are raw
from knocking on woods sometimes. Um, there's a lot of that,

(05:54):
a lot of like the salt over your shoulder kind
of stuff. Yeah, it's kind of what makes Catholicism arming,
I think. Yeah, Like you know, just the like literally
believing that the wine is the blood and the bread
is the body, like which is you know, seems like
just semantics, but then it actually ends up kind of

(06:15):
really reforming how those like different denominations of Christianity work. Um,
and yeah, like it's so weird to like, you know,
being taught as a kid if you grow up in
in Christianity or any kind of religion that believes in
an afterlife that like the people that you love or

(06:37):
like looking down on you, Like that's so close to
just being like, yeah, they're straight up ghosts and like
you can commune with the spirit world if you want to,
but like that is a big no no, Like you're
not supposed to believe that. So it's very you know,
I could see, like, you know, there could be some
gray area there to take advantage of. Yeah, I wanted

(06:58):
to say, I think catholics Ism has the most fun
uh stuff of the Christianities. Definitely Mexican Catholicism especially has
just like a lot of beautiful stuff about it. And
I feel like we've argued about this on the pod before,
where you guys were sort of more like people should

(07:20):
make the religions more inclusive rather than always leaving the religions, uh.
And I think this definitely speaks to that that to
have a type of Catholicism that is inclusive and welcoming
of queer people and you know, hopefully pro choice and
stuff like that. Uh, there's a lot of valuable stuff

(07:43):
about having a community of people that take care of
each other that doesn't always necessarily make it a cult
um where promunity does not equal cult Yeah. Um, no,
it sounds nice. I mean I think that that's something
that Yeah, that's what we were talking about before, Like
that's the thing that a lot of people are missing now.
Is just like, yeah, going out to the river with

(08:04):
your a bunch of families and hanging out and like
you know, hanging out with the other kids and stuff
like that. That's something that I think is missing a
lot in a lot of cultures right now. Uh. But yeah,
I saw a church Marquis yesterday that I liked that
just said like God doesn't social distance. Where where are

(08:26):
they going with that one? Yeah? I know that could right.
I thought about it a lot, but they were like,
God doesn't social distance, Like connect with him and then
you can have the power of God's immunity. Yeah. I
would be interested in in in what our theology friend
John would have to say about this or Yeah, but

(08:47):
it sounds nice. I liked this call a lot um.
Thank you for thank you for calling Carlos. Yeah, thank
you Carlos. Guys. Speaking of cults, have you guys caught
with the vow who? Oh? Yeah? Um, I I got

(09:07):
to both of them since we last spoke, I hadn't
watched either, and so now I'm all I'm all caught up. Um.
I do I wish that there was more. I wish
I could binge mode on this, but I do kind
of like having going on this journey with it, pacing
myself out. It's I I keep wanting to watch more.
It's so good. Um. We talked a little bit last
week about how I felt like in the first episode

(09:29):
it was really marketed to me joining this cult. In
the second episode that went away. Um. But also I
Molly tweeted the question who does Keith Rawnery look like?
And I have now devoted I'm not proud to say,
roughly six hours to try and to find the answer
to this question. Oh okay, give us some candidates, okay,

(09:53):
John Bash, chef John Bash from New Orleans. John Ritter also,
oh yeah, there's a little, there's a little, John Ridder.
But it's like it's hard because nothing's getting close enough.
One of the answers on Molly's threat on Twitter was
Jared Letto on Hamburgers, like fat Jared Letto, like like

(10:13):
Jared Letto and the movie about the guy who killed
John Lennon. Um, okay, mmm, he was sort of baby ish.
It turns out with Jared Letto, Uh, Jared Letto gains weight,
he looks like more of a little baby. My main
candidate was David Foster Wallace. Yeah, that's the one that
I think. It's also just because of the ponytail and

(10:33):
the headband and stuff, but that like me that led
me to Netflix displayed a display image, probably because it
knew I was thinking about this all the time of
John Cusack and being John Malkovich. Oh yeah, maybe also
the ponytail doing a lot of work there. But well,

(10:53):
also the bandana situation is sort of David Foster Wallacey too,
Like like, um, Keith ree Eari in volleyball mode is
very David Foster Wallace. Yes, yes, a when he's got
his hair down, then you know, I can see some
of these other these other candidates in there. Um, Keith
Ranieri is a shape shifting face like he's One picture

(11:16):
of Keith Ranieri might look like John Ridder and another
looks nothing like John ridder at all. He's got a
short man energy though he's short, right, like Mark is
tall and he's short. Um, I you know what, you
know what I really turned on him. I have to
say this is so specific, but this is like one
of the first times I was like, honestly like, okay,

(11:37):
I'm out. Is In the second episode, Mark is working
on a movie with Keith that's basically about their relationship,
with with the Keith stand in being the sort of
wise man who helps the Mark character, you know, find
his way through life. But they like drew character designs
for um for each of them and like this kind

(11:59):
of cutie anime style, like in a very like kind
of I don't know comics artists on Patreon type style,
and it it grossed me out so badly I cannot
tell you why. It made my stomach just absolutely turned.
Like the cutie Keith Ranieri avatar was awful to me,
more awful than any footage of actual Keithreeary. I totally agree.

(12:22):
It had a wicky how also there was like a
little of the wicky how um illustration to it, but
just but knowing what they were doing and like what
Keith Ranary was kind of up to I was like, you,
yourself image is gross that you think of yourself this way.
Somebody pointed out that the movie Camp Nowhere has both

(12:46):
Alison Mack and uh fellow cult leader Andrew Keegan in
It made me want to revisit Camp Nowhere, which I
haven't seen since it came out. But Alison mac is
a fascinating figure in this movie. She is sort of
the Gelian to Keith Ranieri's Epstein. Um. She recruits other

(13:12):
people in. There's not a lot of her though, because
and I think that's because she's not one of our narrators.
Like it's it's kind of amazing to see this through
Mark size, because I think that a lot of the
stuff that's been reported out about this before has been
about like the women who were a part of this
inner circle that they're just getting too At the end
of the second episode, that's like the main thing that

(13:32):
made headlines and it's the reason why, um, there's a
lawsuit and everything. But uh, yeah, Like, I think we'll
probably get more into Alison Macs as we go deeper
into that aspect of it. I think it's super interesting.
I have to say I appreciate a male's point of view. Um,
but I do appreciate Mark's point of view on this

(13:53):
because it's like he's in this position of like, no,
he's just my buddy, Like I'm friends with the smartest
person in the world and having to come to terms
with the fact that, like there are these women who
are being put in danger when you are another guy
and like, you know, and just disposed to believe inside
with your powerful male friend. That's kind of that's a

(14:17):
really kind of interesting story that's being told. And I also, Oh,
you know what, I want to watch? We can watch
camp nowhere. I want to watch what the bleep do
we now? I've never watched it before I and it
was so everywhere. It was like the posters for were
like every Santa Monica's supermarket in like two thousand five. Like,
I think that's like an overlooked bit of culture that
we should revisit for sure. I think it was such

(14:39):
a canary in the coal mine for the rise of
conspiracy culture and the rise of sort of woo woo,
like everything you think you know is wrong and actually
machine elves control everything in the world. Yeah, I feel
like everybody who's mega into what the bleep do we
know back then? Is now an anti vaxtor mom in
the Palisades Like that, there's a direct line that's like

(15:00):
a well, the way the way they use language to
the way they invent new words for things and specific
terms that are just used within nexium. But so much
of the stuff they use is also just like self
help and therapy speak. Um that's in so much other
self help and therapy internet. I had a fun experience

(15:24):
this week. I have a tweet about the moon that
always goes viral when there's a full moon now about
how it's hard to take a picture of the full moon.
And I love it because it goes viral with like
New age people every time there's a full moon now.
So somebody who reposted it, I was looking at their
account and a bunch of their posts were about limiting
beliefs and yeah, but like not in a nexium way,

(15:48):
justin like, hey, what do you think about yourself that
you'd like to change? Like what are the things you
think you can't do? Which is what we all agreed
sort of was like a good hook to get people
into a group. Definitely, Well, we're going to take a
quick break and when we come back, crediting a the
VOW adjacent night email welcome back to night Call. We

(16:16):
got a We got an email from a listener, uh,
an anonymous listener that I thought was super interesting and
was about another kind of Nexium esque organization that I've
never heard of before. Um, that's what do you want
to read it? May I please? I'm a longtime listener,
first time night emailer from Seattle, and it's about noon
thirty here. I just listened to your most recent episode

(16:38):
mentioning the VOW HBO docuseries. I had the same initial
reaction as tests. I feel like I would have totally
joined second episode, maybe not so much. It was spooky
to hear in the first episode that Seattle was one
of the initial center locations. The initial Nexium content also
reminded me of this manifesting program I had subscribed to
and since fallen off working on, called to Be Magnet TBM,

(17:01):
and then a link to to Be Magnetic dot com.
The ethos on inner child and integration slash self limiting
beliefs is very similar. TBM also has a term called
d I Deep Imagining Exercises, which makes me think of
the next M E M S. T b M slash
manifestation in general seems to be a popular thing, especially
in l A. I'm wondering what's your take on subscription

(17:22):
based self work slash programming or even to be Magnetic specifically?
Is the industry around self work just gross and praying
on people that lack self esteem? Isn't that everything? Though?
I had never heard of to be Magnetic? But then
looking around the website that the listener sent us, I
was just like, Oh, this is just I mean, it

(17:42):
felt so normal. I was just like, this is just
every girl in l A basically, you know, like every
every kind of woo woo adjacent jewelry selling us, you know,
Crystal Workshop doing Lady in La. Like, it felt very
normal to me. But then when you start to get

(18:04):
into the subscription aspect of it, not that it's even
that expensive. It's like four dollars for a year, which
like I don't know, compared to them to Jordan Peterson's daughters,
uh meet self help group is a steel Oh. We
got a very angry message about posting the Jordan Peterson

(18:25):
and Michaila Peterson meet book that apparently it's not a
real book, and that was a parody cover. It was
a parody cover. We got fooled. We got I was
trying to find out if it was or not. It
was very unclear on the internet. The internet surrounding Jordan
Peterson is not somebody was like great fact checking nightcall.
So sorry, guys. We apologized for falling for insane grifter,

(18:52):
fake book cover. Everything else was so crazy. Everything else
is normal in that story though, right, Like the cover
is like the one thing that makes it crazy that
that word how are you okay? Anyway? Well to be
Magnetic describes itself on its website as the number one
destination for grounded manifestation quote a combination of neuroscience and

(19:13):
psychology teachings with a little spirituality sprinkled on top. Our
members manifested when they did the work weekly, Are you
ready to get out of your own way and manifest
the life of your dreams? When they use the word
manifest like that, it just sounds like like not to
be gross, but like taking a ship like like manifest.

(19:34):
I mean, I don't want to knock anybody who's found
this to be useful if they have, but I do
think it definitely reminds me of um in l a
the life coaching and also acting classes. Acting classes are
exactly this get out of your own way. You're the
only one standing in your own way, will help you
get out of your own way, which is so strange,

(19:56):
especially when you tie it into like neuros. I'm not
sure how neuroscience factors into this UM psychology. I guess
I could understand, but the idea of getting out of
your own way by handing over a lot of your
decision making to a like guru type of person a
little tricky. Well, there's also just I think the fundamental

(20:17):
problem I have with a lot of these sorts of
self help UM the mentality of it. The idea of
getting out of your own way because that's the only
thing that's holding you back, like puts the onus on
the individual as opposed to like our fucked up capitalist society.
Like if you're not manifesting so to speak, right now,

(20:38):
that it's all on you, that you're blocked in some way.
I mean that can be true to a degree, Like
you can be in your own way, you can have
bad habits and all that kind of stuff, Like that's
that's totally legit. But like if you take somebody who's
really struggling right now, say in this particular time when
you know everybody's unemployed and it's impossible to like get
certain careers off the ground because certain industry to ground

(21:00):
to a halt. I e. Acting uh uh. Not that
that's like necessarily the target demo, but I feel like
it is. Like it is then it's like that's not
all on you. And this it's a very actually to
get back to the Christian values type thing we're talking about.
It's very like self punishing in a very puritanical calvinist way,

(21:24):
where it's like you just haven't done the work that
you need to do in order to have whatever success
that you want. And that kind of thinking is very
easy to fall into because that's the way that we're
all raised, that's our literal culture. Is that you're not
working hard enough, so that's why you haven't succeeded. So
I I get a little bit annoyed when I see
this sort of philosophy espoused, Yeah, for sure. And it's

(21:47):
that kind of law of attraction stuff that is total bullshit,
but also is in the Secret and other snake oil
stuff like that, the idea that if you just want
something bad and it'll happen if you charge your crystals
in the right way and you know, do some some
manifestating manifestating Yeah, and the fact that you're like going

(22:10):
to take this like you know, like a sprinkling of
spirituality or like you know, in the stuff that's more
straight up a spiritual practice and use it. You know,
I mean I feel like half the people coming to
this or like I want to be an entrepreneur or something.
There just feels like something there's like a total disconnect
there between like you know, an actual spiritual practice that

(22:31):
makes you feel like a more fully realized human being
and like making money. Like I don't know, this feels
so so like Instagram, like uh a sponsored ad type
um aesthetic. Uh. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
There's plenty of Instagram sponsors ads. I would like to

(22:54):
sponsor us, But you know, it just has that vibe.
It has this really you know, the design is all perfect.
It's like very much like an affluent, aspirational kind of
esthetic that's meant to communicate material success. And yeah, kase
quix me out. Yeah, Well, because it's preying on people's insecurities.

(23:18):
It's not like appealing to people's sense of self improvement.
It's like there's something wrong with you, only we can
fix it. Yea, I mean it's I don't know. It's
hard because I remember reading UM one of the Val
Kilmer profiles that came out pretty recently, like within the
last year, and how he was talking about how like
cancer wasn't like he didn't have cancer. He had like

(23:41):
the I forget the exact phrase, but it was something
like I was like confronted, but it was I don't
have cancer, but like cancers somehow attracted into my realm.
And like, with things like that, it's hard because to
me they seem a little out there. But at the
same time, I'm like, if you feel bad or thinking
that way, you were very sick, like you should think
that way, you know, do do you? But then when

(24:03):
you see how some of these websites are packaged, and
especially in the context of watching the Vow and seeing
how something that did start out, even though I don't
believe it ever had anyone's best intentions at heart, but
it started out seemingly pretty innocuous, And then by episode
two we already see that there's like a splinter group
forming of these women UM who are doing things that

(24:24):
are drastically different than we're presented in the first episode.
And it's kind of when you look at this website
um for to be Magnetic, you kind of can see that,
like the way that this is being packaged is already
like inherently, as Emily said, like you're towards more of
like a material success or a kind of like tongue

(24:45):
in cheek. If you've run out of things to buy,
you buy the like program that tells you that you're
better than you were before you had it. Yeah, you
subscribe to positive thinking. And the thing about the thing
about Nexium that is coming across now in the second
episode is like, if it weren't for the sex cult
inside of it, it would just be like a multi

(25:07):
level marketing scheme that sort of new age and it
might just still exist today. Yeah. Yeah, that's the kind
of fascinating thing about it is like that, Yeah, there,
it would just be kind of a you know, maybe
a little bit fringing, maybe a little a bit of
a waste of money type thing. Like I do still
think that like whatever, like what we know of of

(25:30):
Keith threw nearis technologies are like a lot of it
seems kind of legit to be honest, but to be honest,
but like, yeah, but the fact that then there is,
you know whatever, one in twenty people who are attracted
to that kind of thing also have a real propensity
for like self negation already and are willing and like

(25:50):
almost wanting to get into this sort of thing where
somebody else is dictating what their life is. Like I
think that that is like, that's like and and people
are always going to be there to take advantage of that,
like if you're a person who wants direction, right, And
that's why people fall victim to dictators also obviously and fascism,
Like a lot of people do want to be told

(26:12):
what to do, and it makes sense why because the
world is fucking scary and confusing and people just want
like mommy and daddy to step in and be like,
here's what you do. And that can be very easily
used to manipulate and exploit people, which is why you
shouldn't trust anybody that's trying to position themselves as like

(26:32):
a parental figure. Usually yeah yeah, but yeah once once once, uh,
somebody's like telling you to call them master, and it's
not in a fun, kinky way, maybe maybe that's a
red flag. Maybe you know, personal fascism is is not cool,

(26:53):
just the way that geopolitical fascism isn't either. Well. Also,
going back to our first call that we today from Carlos,
I think what seems apparent is that our understanding of
cults has come a really long way in the past
few decades. And I think that certainly, like at one
point a cult, like if if you had an experience

(27:13):
where it was like a lot of people going and
like you know, contacting dead ancestors and like engaging in
baptism rituals and stuff like that, that those things seem
like out if they're outside of your experience, it would
seem easy to classify those as like a fringe group
of a religion, and like maybe that seems like a
cult to you. But then looking into UM the kind
of like newer weird self improvement systems like like Nexium

(27:36):
and things of that, ilk you see that the real
difference is who if the leader is a person who
is UM like Keith Rawniery kind of prescribing something that's
so I mean, one of the things that struck me
about the second episode was Bonnie, who is Mark's wife
was writing a crew an episode three or two. I

(27:58):
can't remember if storks yeah, and they sure showed that.
I was like, I knew it, but she wrote down
her schedule. And the people who were successful within this organization,
we're being sleep deprived. They were being so overworked just
to break them down. And so but then you you
see the potential for that in other more innocuous seeming
self help groups where if you subscribe to something and

(28:21):
you're investing money and self improvement, you're investing in this
kind of like projected image of the really healthy looking
lady in the sun hat who's like taking care of herself.
Then there is a sense of like, you don't want
the failure of not working hard enough to achieve something
you You know, if it were easy to achieve, you
think you you would have already achieved it without help.

(28:42):
So now that you're committing to this, it seems like
there's the potential to drive someone to a point where
you are breaking down the things that kind of hold
the individual together in order to control them. Right, And
like the technology, a lot of it just seems kind
of taken from talk therapy, and so it feels similar
to scientology in that way of being like, don't get therapy.

(29:04):
Therapy is bad. We've got this thing that's just like
therapy and that will have some of the benefits of therapy,
but also we're gonna like take advantage of how vulnerable
we're making you feel. Yeah, well, I'm I'm, I'm all in,
I'm I'm excited for the next episode. I know how
many episodes are there of this. I think there's like
nine nine. Yeah, so yeah, we're gonna We're gonna keep

(29:27):
checking back in with it. Let us know your thoughts
about the vow and nextium and all that stuff. Give
us a night call one to four oh four six
night or a night email at night Call Podcast at
gmail dot com. Let us know what you think about
that or anything else in the world. Um, we're gonna
take a quick bake and when we come back, our
guest sam Are is going to join us and we're

(29:47):
going to talk about those chihuahuas. Welcome Tonightcall. We are
now joined by our guests, Samur Caliph uh Sama. Calip
has written for Slate, New Republic, and Popular. He was

(30:08):
previously a managing editor at dead Spin, and he is
now a managing editor at Defector, which is a brand
new site which is either launching now or very soon
at defector dot com. It's a worker owned sports blog
and media company that is uh yeah, I'm very exciting.
So Hi, welcome Sama, Thank you for having me, Thanks

(30:30):
for joining us. We have a lot we want to
talk about. We got we got a question that like
actually talks about a subject that we talked about a lot,
which is sort of like lost versions of the Internet. Um,
we had a question about just like what were the
sites that we were escaping to now, like the idea
of going to websites, and it's kind of like a
it feels a little bit antiquated now with social media

(30:52):
and like Twitter just being the place where everybody who
cares about reading stuff online is going. But um, I
know you guys are kind is seeking to rethink that
a little bit with the factor um what what's your
what's your what's your feeling on that, like about the
website hang out and like the future of websites. Yeah,
I mean I feel like social media kind of consolidated

(31:13):
a lot of it and just we did out a
lot of the smaller places where people would go to
just find communities. I mean and also there are probably
other factors to just in terms of how people react
on the Internet these days, But yeah, I think the
factor was trying to just create like we we want
to break news and we want to do reporting, and

(31:34):
we want to write stuff that people want to read.
But also there is a sense that we do want
to create like a nice community that people want to
be a part of, and hopefully like doesn't need to
be moderated too well because people kind of grasp the
expectations going in. So I mean, in terms of other
sites that I go to for an escape, I play

(31:54):
a lot of like online chess, and I'd like, fine,
like any s emulator sites use that that online chess
was like taking over and becoming dangerous dangerous chess, Yeah,
I mean, do you have money and wrapped up in it.
The thing is I would be like I would be
like Howard Ratner right now if I was betting on

(32:16):
chess games and myself like I would be deep in
the hole and getting chased by bookies. But now I
just I picked it up because I used to play
when I was younger. I was never like any good
or like ranked or anything. I would just play with
my dad and like friends and stuff, and it seemed
like a good hobby that would keep my brain like active,
but in the end, it actually is just like making

(32:37):
me extremely frustrated all the time. Like I I understand
how people like I would never been like a really
big golf person, but I understand why people gets so
addicted and piste off by the game and keep coming
back to it. I've been playing a lot of online
boggle um and having a similar boggles more boggles really

(32:57):
my speed, but it so I play on word twist
dot org and there there's this user I think her
name is like mom of four Boys or something, and
I'll think, like that was that was like a pretty
good game of boggle right there. Test And then I'll
look and it will say the average score, and then
the high score and the average scores all like I
think I've only beaten the average score once and it

(33:18):
probably was because like not that many people have played
that board. But Mom of four Boys is like consistently
like doubling and tripling my score and I'm working like
so hard, but it reminds me. It's that kind of
like compulsive like when you're sick of the scroll, you
then do the like, you know, refreshing the game kind
of thing, but it doesn't. It's not as good. There's

(33:43):
nobody you're playing. It's just you're playing on a board
by yourself, and then they're comparing your score to other
people's scores, which is why I like it. I used
to play um online Scrabble a lot, but then e
A like changed it and now it's unplayable. So that
was my solution to like scratch that itch. But um,
it's it's just and then and the games are so
short there two minutes, so you just like play one

(34:05):
and then you're just like go go go, uh, which
is terrible. I used to do so many online games,
like Yahoo games used to be like a major thing
they had, like the that word scramble game where you
find the different words within the I mean it's very
boggle adjacent. I can't remember the name of it anymore.
But then I feel like all kind of low stakes
online game playing, like word games and that kind of stuff.

(34:28):
A lot of it moved to Facebook, and I always
thought that was so weird. When Facebook and got into
like hosting games, it just felt like a con to
get you to be like logging more hours on Facebook,
even if you're just like tending to your farm Ville
farm or something. So I haven't really like, you know,
And now I'm thinking back with great fondness and nostalgia
about like hanging out on Yahoo Games games dot Yahoo

(34:52):
dot com when I was at work study, uh employee
my film school. Well, if you want to play the boggle,
it's called word Twist, but it's hosted by some something
called puzzle Baron. Ah. Yes, I would love to be
on the property of a baron when I huzzled Baron. Yeah.
So um for for people who don't know, and we

(35:14):
we we get a little bit inside baseball on media,
sometimes here but um and sometimes on other forms like
we had a we had a live stream where we
suddenly just became a media chat. Um. So for for
people who maybe don't know, can you kind of explain
that the writer owned or the worker owned um model

(35:35):
for defector and what that means and why that's important
and different from how the majority of blogs and media
outlets work. Sure, so um we were everybody who is
everybody except for one person at the Factor was part
of dead Spin and we all um left under. I mean,

(35:56):
I don't want to go into the circumstances too much,
because I feel like they're already public anyway, but we
left under circumstances that were caused by bad experiences with
the owners. So um, what we're doing with the Factor
is its worker owned and that everybody has a piece
of equity. Everybody gets to vote on major decisions. So

(36:17):
we still have like an editor in chief and we
have somebody Jasper Wayang, who's in charge of um like
the business side of the site, but all the workers
are able to hold them accountable with a vote if
it comes to that, so they're we're putting like safeguards
in place in that so they have there's nobody in

(36:40):
any position of power who can just uni literally make
decisions basically, Yeah, which feels like the most I don't know,
like logical way for a site like that to be run,
but I think like maybe a lot of people got
a crash course and like how most media companies actually
work from that episode of succession where it's just like
this really oftentimes labyrinthine thing that you know, billionaires decided

(37:05):
to get a stake in who don't really care about
the future of the site and the people who work
for it, and it's just kind of a mess. Um. Yeah.
And I think like when you think of a publication
that a group of people are working on together, like
that feels like a much more kind of organic, cloistic
way for it to be run. But it's unfortunately not

(37:27):
very common now. I was interested because Dad's been up
all night. I know you did a bit of that
sammer and that was that kind of to me. Was like,
it's one of those nostalgic kind of things of like
the late night blog as opposed to the late night Twitter. Um.
I'm probably I'm maybe too old to really enjoy Twitter.

(37:49):
Is my reasoning for why I don't, um, because I
just like I feel as though whenever I used Twitter,
like late at night and everyone's like enjoying the late
night Twitter vibe, I'm like, I really liked this on
blogs and I don't know why it was such a
novelty to be like it's night, but we're writing online,
like we're all here at night, we're all up. Um.

(38:11):
But it it made me think of, you know, when
we got this inquiry from a listener about like what
kind of sites do you go to to escape the
hell that we live in? I was like well dead
Spin was one, um for sure, and it's you know,
now dad Spin exists, but it's but de factor is
really dead Spin. Um yeah um. But it's just like

(38:34):
it is hard to find what used to be kind
of like the soul of the Internet. And I think,
like what Emi Lisa too, is that a lot of
that is because we've kind of seen how like companies
can mismanage sites that do you have really great communities
built in, make it so hard for people to put
out the content that they're really excited to put out,
and it just becomes like this bureaucratic mess. So I

(38:57):
think it's exciting that you guys are doing this, but
I also like I wish everything were sped up and
that there were more sites like popping up, like I mean,
hopefully it'll set the tone. Yeah, my question is are
you guys going to stick to sports? We will not
be sticking to sports. Yeah, there are some ideas. I mean,

(39:21):
we've just been tossing around ideas for either recurring features
or just one off things, and we're definitely open to
doing whatever. And we're also doing stuff on We're trying
out like a Twitch stream, which we never really even
thought about. Like at the old place. But I think
that will offer our ability to like go outside of
just like talking about last night's game or whatever for

(39:43):
an hour. From my limited experience with Twitch, which is
mostly with night call live streams, that does feel like
the most logical kind of analog between something like, um,
you know, the kind of like hanging out on a
blog or hanging out in the common section of something,
just because it is like it's contained, you can actually
see a list of who's there. Like I stumbled across

(40:06):
when I was on a a deep dive. UM this
uh like anarchist radio station, like a web a web
radio thing, and it had a chat room and I've
never heard of this thing before, but suddenly I found
myself in the chat room for this radio station. There
were two other people in it, and it was that
was it. And I was just like, wow, when do

(40:26):
you stumble across like a truly intimate space like that
on on the internet, where you know you can still
have a degree of anonymity, but it's not for the
sake of being able to say whatever you want. It's
just like kind of an adventure. UM. That feels like Twitch.
It's kind of the closest to that of like a
big kind of commonly used platform that that I can

(40:47):
think of now. Yeah, I definitely agree. I feel like
some of that public access feeling of Twitch really gets
at what I liked about the old Internet. My friends
Jack and Kate have daily morning show called Jack Am
that I watch every day that it's like one of
the only things that feels like it gives me routine

(41:08):
right now, which I also think people are really thirsty for.
Just to be able to wake up and check a
site or watch a show or listen to a podcast weekly. Uh,
makes people feel like there's some sort of grounding in time.
One of the things Um sam Or that you said
that you've also found comfort in is the international celebrity

(41:29):
chihuahua scene. How did you find How did you find
these fancy dogs? I think like originally it was they's
just like one of those random tweets where there's a
video and it's completely unsourced and somebody's using it for
a completely different thing, Like it was these two chihuahua
standing up on the side of a car window and
one of them kind of dramatically like slumps down in

(41:53):
the way, Like it wasn't like passing out or anything.
It's just like it lost its balance and my girlfriend
head there. I think tracked down like who who owned
that chuaua like on Instagram because it wasn't like a
relatively obscure account, but it just wasn't like known very well.
And it's a Their names are Toro and Maguro, and

(42:14):
I think I believe Magurro means tuna in Japanese and
I think it's is it Magaro is like, um uh,
what's the I'm gonna look it up. It's it's a
different kind of thing. It is a fish. I might
gone that wrong, but yeah. The Instagram is like k Yoshihara,

(42:36):
which I'm not sure where that or that just might
be the person's name. But two chaua is one of
them is like pretty normal and like it's a has
like white fur, and the other one is has like
a mysterious thing where it walks kind of funny. But
then like if you pointed out in the comments, the
owner gets really offended and mad and just like doesn't

(42:57):
want to talk about it. And I think one person
as is like is she okay? Like why is she
walking like that? And the translation was like mcgarrow lives
hard every day, and it is a struggle for her
which one is which, because I'm looking at the account

(43:17):
right now, and one of them is genuinely kind of
is starting to have the amphibious head effect, like has
kind of eyes on either side of its head because
its head is so small. I'm assuming that the fun
colored one. Yes, that's mcgarrow. Okay, yeah, mcgarrow does look
like she lives hard. I mean, a lot of these

(43:41):
chihuahua's there, you can, like I scrolled kind of back
in the archives of some of them. We looked at
a lot of chihuahuas, um and when they're puppies, chihuahuas
are very cute and like very you know all a
lot of these chihuahuas seem willing to pose with green
apples in tiny hat. That's that kind of thing with bobbles.

(44:02):
But then it's hard because like many small dogs, chihuahua
is like they you know, they start to show their
age when they're like fourteen, they get like the I
thing and like maybe tooth problems. And it's hard because
it's like this sped up thing of being a celebrity
where it's like you don't want to you don't want
to read mean comments on like the once beautiful whatever

(44:24):
Popo and Palm, and it's like now they're living those
hard lives. There's there's definitely one account um it's called
like Naggy Coo or something like it similar to that.
There's like a few numbers after the word. But they
definitely close a bunch of them as strollers. But also
it's very clear that they use the same Instagram filters
that like callistic ging grips uses like her and new

(44:47):
and it's just like very smooth faces for all them.
That's so weird, Sweeten that chihuahua. Please, uh well, should
we take a night email from one of our listeners? Oh? Yeah,
uh this is great. So this comes to us from
our listener Aaron, who writes, it's eleven forty seven pm
in I think it's is it ocoee or so I

(45:11):
don't know in Florida Ocoee Florida. And as a new
listener to your podcast, I've been listening to older episodes
and one episode you all discussed the computer generated content
on YouTube that uses popular children's characters in search terms
to create bizarre content men to trick the algorithm into
auto playing those videos. This reminded me of something that
I found in college. A large part of my final

(45:32):
semester involved me editing a student film, and I spent
many late nights in the editing lab working on my cut,
along with two other editors working on their films. Often,
as the nights dragged on, we would end up getting
distracted by looking up done and stuff on YouTube. And
this was sort of does typing in numbers and letters
and a file type and the YouTube search bar e g.
Three F seven dot MP four and seeing what came up.

(45:53):
A lot of the content we found were things like
accidentally uploaded vacation videos or picture tours of homes for sale.
How However, one night, we stumbled across something that felt
much more sinister. The link we open started playing bizarre
beeps and tones, and random shapes and lines in various
colors started sliding across the screen. It felt like something
dark and forbidden, like we had entered an episode of

(46:14):
Black Mirror and we're going to be brainwashed or killed
off one by one. The best explanation we can make
of it was that it was some kind of AI
trying to figure out how to make a human figure
out of geometric shapes. If you scroll through their page
from oldest to newest videos, you can see the algorithm
seemed to figure out how to make a basic face
and maybe even at a basic body shape. So, um,

(46:35):
so this is a you can find this on YouTube.
I think there's like maybe like twenty something views on
a lot of these videos. Like nobody's looking at these.
But the um, it was, it was it was it.
I was playing, I I clicked on it. I was like,
is that in my mind from talking about this scar. Yeah,

(46:56):
it's really scary. The name of the account is sweet peat.
Sweet Peach has a subscribers somehow on YouTube, but like
twenty views per video, so I don't know who's who's
checking on sweet Peach. The name sweet Peaches is really
scary in the context of how abstract this is. I

(47:17):
would love to know what I mean. All the file
names are just like a series of letters and numbers.
I wonder what they put into the search to find
this account. But this is some real good weirdo late
night like internet trawlling material. Um, and it does feel
like the Ring or something like, Oh if I watched this,

(47:39):
am I gonna have finanniurism or something like it's very weird.
It's it's super scary, and I don't know, are you
guys familiar with webdriver Torso. No, that's how so familiar
drug my memory, it's from so. The only reason I
I was not familiar with reb webdriver Torso until I
searched sweet Peach and then found a Reddit post that said,

(48:03):
this reminds me of webdriver Torso, and webdriver Torso has
a Wikipedia page and stuff, so I guess in um,
people discovered this YouTube channel called webdriver Torso and they
were like, it was very similar to this. Um it
was you know, like these kind of like shapes like

(48:24):
a like like mostly squares, and it kind of just
it was like nothing, but it was a lot like this,
but not as uh intricate like this has drawings of faces.
This was just like square, square, red and blue. And
people who noticed it like started talking about it, and
they became convinced that it was like, you know, all
of these conspiracy theories started popping up of like aliens

(48:45):
trying to get in touch with us. It's bi videos,
and I guess three of the videos were like strange.
They were not like the others. One of them was
um it was. The title was basically a shortened form
of temporary Rick Rule nine teen five, where one of
the squares becomes Rick Astley dancing. One of them is
only available in France and you have to pay to

(49:07):
watch it, and it's um the I think it's like,
oh yeah, it's a Spanish dubbed episode of Aquitine Hunger
Force and you have to like pay to watch it.
But everyone, no one could figure out what it was.
And then finally um YouTube admitted that it was like
an internal kind of training thing, so it was um,
you know, they were trying to see if we make

(49:28):
this simple video and then upload it, like what's the
differentiation in quality from what we recorded to what we see?
But if you google webdriver Torso then the Google logo
becomes webdriver Torso themed. I want to try try it.
It's almost weird when you see the backstage of the internet. Yeah,

(49:50):
that's very oh my god, it happened. Oh scary. But
it's like, this doesn't seem like an in internal YouTube thing.
But you wonder if maybe it's like trying to train.
It's like training itself to be better at uploading videos.
But it's at the name Sweet Peach is just it's
weird because it doesn't think well. I think that there's

(50:14):
something like before knowing that this is an internal YouTube thing. Uh.
With webdever Torso, it just feels like, um, like you know,
an art project or something, because it's very you know,
it looks like a mandrean or something, and like webdriver
Torso is such a like net art sounded name. Yeah,
it feels like a project, feels like somebody you know

(50:35):
doing some art, trying to be creative or whatever. The
thing about the Sweet Peach thing is something about the
faces and that things that almost look like faces make
it feel much more like the machine is becoming self
aware and like it's in its embryonic stage and we
must stop it. Lawnmower Peach, it's very lawnmower man. Have

(50:58):
you ever found anything like true really weird and unexplainable
like that, or do you have a favorite one of
those summer like just weird little pockets in the Internet.
I haven't personally, but I was looking at that Sweet
Peach channel after you sent it, and I was just curious,
like because it seems like it's so it's using like

(51:18):
the same kind of foundational elements, like to the point
where maybe something like somebody made a bot or something.
It's like, all right, let's see how many videos this
can create out of these certain elements. But it seems
like all the videos are uploaded in October, but not
all in the same day. So I'm looking at one

(51:39):
that was uploaded in April. I'm gonna far enough. This
is not this where they uploaded this year. I didn't
look it was last year. Um, yeah, a lot of
them were uploaded in October and then there are Yeah,
there's like the large bulk of them. It looks like

(51:59):
we're a floated in October. I was looking at one
from April for some so maybe that was like the
first one. Yeah. I love something like this where it's
impossible to tell if it's just like an actual industrial
back channel or if it's like someone trying to make
a creepy pasta. It definitely seems automated, like the bulk
of this is like beyond somebody trying to like somebody

(52:23):
just like planting some scary stuff like it feels it
does feel like there's some kind of automation or bought
behind this because they're just such a volume of stuff
and oh my god, it's creepy. It's really creepy. Those
tones are very creepy. Town and Pokemon, like the level
that's supposed to make like make you want to kill yourself.

(52:44):
Can I tell you another conspiracy I just heard about?
Actually that's very similar to what you're talking about, which
is like the idea of tones that will make you
do something. Yeah, And there's that that like that feels
like a very kind of you know, it's like this
sort of horror movie version of what everybody kind of
were afraid of with the Internet when it first started

(53:06):
to become a thing, which is like, oh, you're going
to accidentally stumble into something that's truly dangerous or that's
either going to steal all your money or you know,
open you up to some kind of physical tag or whatever.
So there is like I feel like we all have
a sort of basic fear about the Internet, you know,
no matter how many iterations of it we have lived through,

(53:28):
where there's still this thing of like I could find
the haunted website. Yeah. And also as you like see
people go off the deep end because of stuff they
learned about on the Internet and conspiracy stuff, which I
feel like has been happening more and more so. My
friend Carter Cruse was talking about this phenomenon of like
she just you know, just like you follow somebody and

(53:49):
then they suddenly just take a turn into conspiracy town.
And she was saying, like I had been noticing this too.
Just look like some random like hot girls I fall
oh that are like musicians or models or whatever, and
then they'll just start posting about like que stuff. And
she was saying, she was like, oh, did you encounter this?

(54:09):
She followed somebody who then started posting about a conspiracy
that involved people putting tones in music that are going
to like make you do stuff, brainwash you and make
you do stuff. What kind of music is this? But yeah,
is it like current music? Yeah? I think the idea
was like probably electronic music or pop music that you

(54:30):
know they're there brainwashing you by putting certain tones that
make you feel certain ways in music. Um, which is
also the kind of the plot line of the Josie
and the Pussycats movie right. Um. But also it came
up on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills on the other
context that there's like a calming tone. We talked about

(54:50):
this before, I think, but I hadn't thought about its
corollary if they're being like the evil tones in music,
the one that kick starts the disintegration of your brain. Yeah,
and she was like, I don't know if I'm like,
I think I'm going to follow this person because it's
too weird. But I was like, I've just been noticing
that more and more that people will just take a

(55:11):
turn into some conspiracy and just never come back. Yeah. Yeah,
I think there there's also a very fine line between
people who were who are kind of like hippie hippie dippy,
happy good hippies who then become kind of anti vax
and then become Q and on like this. Yes, there's

(55:32):
so much cross breeding right now between new age anti
vax stuff and Q and on because sort of the
center of the ven diagram is like, hey, we love children, right,
you care about children, Come on in. But it's scary
to me, it's very scary. How do you bring people

(55:53):
back from that? I mean it's this whole Yeah, it's
the conspiracy thing in general, just like getting off of
the addiction of finding connections between things, like we've been
talking about. I feel like the last few weeks. It's like,
once you kind of start that line of thinking, it's
really hard to break out of it and be like, no,
there are things that are just random, like there are
things that are just the way things are like. But

(56:14):
if there's a you know, you'd defy feel very about everything,
or one large, you know, conspiracy, then there's something actually
kind of comforting about that. In some way, the chihuahuas
are spelling out messages. They're trying to tell us something
with their crusty eyes. They're trying to tell us. Before

(56:35):
we let you go, Sammer, we wanted to briefly discuss
so Emily is. Now. She's shuttling back and forth between
a couple of different places, but she is spending some
time in a house that has haunted. I mean, I
live there, you live, yeah, but now you're not there.
I have to go to because the ghosts have taken
over the internet. I have to I have to go

(56:56):
elsewhere for internet. So also, you said that you were
chasing mice where they are there mice and ghosts in
that house? Oh yes, oh yeah, I am not alone
no matter what the context is. Yeah. Um, but Sammer,
we asked you if you had because you're from New
Hampshire and we were like, is it very haunted? Because

(57:16):
New England as a whole is haunted. But we kind
of agree New Hampshire is not like the most haunted
place in New England. I think it's Connecticut, maybe I would.
I think it's like a two way race between Massachusetts
and Connecticut because Massachusetts kind of I mean, I had
the Sale, which trials obviously, and that that gives you
a pretty big lead in terms of haunted occurrences in

(57:40):
the state. But yeah, Connecticut is I don't want to
say sneaky haunted, but oh yeah, I mean I think
Rhode Island is the most haunted New England state because
because of the vampire thing, because HP love Craft in
a girl and Poe not too. But it's a good
point they leaned into being haunted themed. But I think
Connectic kid is the scariest there you go, um, but

(58:03):
in a different way, just like Stepford Stepford wise, which
is different than ghosts automatons. Uh. Yeah, I don't know.
I haven't really spent that much time in New England proper.
I think, like in general, I mean I get like
a lot of you know, the earliest settled places or

(58:24):
like you know, the earliest colonized places in the United
States as being kind of haunted and cursed in a
lot of ways. But I haven't really spent that much
time in them. The one thing I will say, though,
and I feel like this has come up before on
this podcast because I lived in New York for like
five years. That's the bulk of my experience on the
on the East Coast. But I think that New York

(58:46):
City is actually like one of the least haunted places
in the country. There's no room for ghosts. There's no
room for ghosts. Um, there's too much like overlap, like
too much overlapping energy. I think that they get crowded out.
Like I would like to cite a little text called
the Ghostbusters here you counter your argument the ghosts live

(59:07):
as a fantasy. They live in the subway tunnels and
in the libraries. They don't they Honestly, I think they
don't like people like the New Yorker. Ghosts are not
fans of crowds. That's how it feels like they've been
chased out. They're not fans of tourists. Who is wonder
if the New York ghosts are just like talking among
themselves when some one of the ghosts smooth out to

(59:29):
like Connecticut or Massachusetts, like New York is going to
handle it New York. New York is undead. Yes, um,
you pointed us to a New Hampshire magazine article what
is it? Yeah? I think and they um there were
a few different examples of like hauntings in New Hampshire.

(59:52):
The Hotel ports Smith Um is this old mansion that
was turned into an inn, and that one sounds pretty
haunted because and they and the ghosts I guess, like
to play with ice from the ice machine. Yeah, someone
sit out to me because it's just so specific, like
the the ghost really like messing with the ice and
just putting in piles. I feel an interesting ghost activity.

(01:00:17):
All bed and breakfasts are haunted, but usually by like
the proprietor of the bed and breakfast? Is that a fact?
I just find people's old, dusty things to be haunted
like obviously California is also very haunted, extremely um, but
there's less of like the you know a blanket from

(01:00:39):
eighteen fifty to connect you to the time when the
haunting is It's true. The airbnb thing is also like
we've talked about airbnb is being haunted or not, and
you know there's such a wide swath of levels of hauntings.
And we've talked about like, Okay, so you could be
in like an old historical house and in New England
and rent that it's like your picturesque getaway or something.

(01:01:02):
But is that more or less Like you know, if
you're living in somebody's home or somebody's like vacation home
or something, is that more or less haunted than being
in a place it's like a New Bill department that's
like just there to be an Airbnb, and there's this
kind of soulless and empty, like I'm more spooked out
by the ladder than the former. I would rather have
some It's kind of like the probiotics of of the

(01:01:24):
spirit world, Like I want some fauna of some flora
in in in in the mix, Like I can't have
a completely blank slate. That feels unhealthy. And that backs
up why New York is not haunted, is like the
humans are the probiotics. Yes, I think that's a great analysis.
I think we're developing a universal theory, which is just
that like landlords are all ghouls, that's who's haunting these properties,

(01:01:49):
but also New Hampshire, famous for the live free or
die motto, it does have a sort of reputation as
a sanctuary for people such as Veto on The Sopranos
and more recently, Gillian Maxwell. So I think Gee Lane's
House in New Hampshire might be the most haunted place

(01:02:11):
in New England. Now, yeah, any place like I think
that's maybe the only the only places that's haunted In
New York City too, Is any place that Jeffrey Epstein
or Gillian Maxwell has lived like that's haunted? Haunted? I
think there aren't other creepy apartments in New York though,
come on, there's a whole network. Stanley Kubrick tried to
tell us there are so many. I find, as I've said,

(01:02:34):
I find any rich person apartment in New York to
be totally haunted. I think that the if you're going
to say that there are haunted New York apartments that
are not related to Epstein, I'm going to say that
they're the lofts, because lofts ghost love lofts. I think,
because as you know, ghost haunt a property like the land,
they don't haunt the building but I think that they

(01:02:56):
would be. And then the path that the ghosts take
supposedly doesn't have to do with the layout of the
place as it now is, but as it once was.
So in aloft, you take away all the walls, right,
and I think that makes ghost sad. I say, I
feel bad, vibe and wass Do ghosts also open floor

(01:03:19):
plans and offices? Yes, for sure, especially now that we're
all quarantined. We all should hate those things. Yeah. Wait,
but if they hate them, they stay away from them?
Or are they They're but angry? They're they're angry, they're
always here. Haunting really is not Maybe I'm redefining everything now.
It's not optional they have to haunt it. But it's

(01:03:40):
like if I have to haunt an open floor plan office,
then like, well what if it's like ghosts are all
around us, but the haunting means a ghost that's pissed.
It doesn't like there could be ghosts in my house,
but I wouldn't consider it haunted because they don't do
anything to me, or they're just regretful. I just saw
the movie Ghost, which all takes place soon like an
insane New York loft and ghost haunts aloft in that,

(01:04:05):
but also, yeah, maybe the ghosts are just mad about gentrification.
I was gonna say, I guess I'm interested in the
idea that you would treat a ghost the way you
would treat like a spider, and that it ultimately serves
a good and only if it's mad, we'll like you
hear from it. Yeah that's right, Yeah, only if it's
been disturbed. Uh well, Samurai, thank you so much for

(01:04:27):
joining us, Thank you for talking about ghosts in Chihuahua's
with us. UM, where can people find you? And um
and where can people find and engage with Defector as well?
So Defector if they wanted to subscribe, they'll go to
defector dot com. Um, we're also on Twitter at Defector

(01:04:47):
Media and I'm just at Twitter dot com slash nice. Well,
thank you so much for joining us, and everybody go
check out Defector, which will hopefully be live when you're
read this, if not very very soon, so check it out.
Thanks so much, Sammer, and thank you so much for
listening to Nightcall. You can follow us on Instagram at

(01:05:11):
Nightcall Podcast, Facebook, at Nightcall Podcast, on Twitter at Nightcall Pod.
You can subscribe to us on iTunes or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Also leave us a rating
and review really helps us. It helps get the show
out there, and you can also support us on Patreon.
We're on patreon dot com slash Nightcall. We've got bonus

(01:05:32):
episodes of monthly newsletter mix tapes, also to fun stuff,
so check us out there. If you want more Nightcall
in your life, take car of y'all. We'll be back
next week. Seela

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