July 11, 2023 • 32 mins
Kar-Jenner matriarch and media mogul Kris Jenner joins Brooke for a wide-ranging conversation about the surprising origins of her business savvy and how her approach to managing her children's careers has changed over the years. Plus, Kris opens up about the “wake-up calls” she experienced following the death of her friend Nicole Brown Simpson and her divorce from Robert Kardashian.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
What do you do when life doesn't go according to
plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one,
or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this
is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told
by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down
with a guest to talk about the times they were
knocked off course and what they did to move forward.
(00:27):
Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all
are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and
every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice
answers one question, now what? And is there one of
(00:50):
your children that's the most like you?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I think they all have different sides of me. Chloe
has my nesting side. Her and I are very much
alike the way we keep our houses, always trying to
clean something every five minutes. And then Kim is my
entrepreneurial side, and Courtney is my nostalgic side and loves
(01:13):
family and kids. And Kendall was over yesterday and she
loves nature, that little side of me that most people
don't know about, and she loves her horrors. Kylie has
this magical quality where she just thinks that, you know,
she works hard and everything's just going to work out,
and it does. And I was I think I was
(01:34):
like that. I was always dreaming but able to capture
that dream and reality. And then my son Rob is
so funny and so fear and he's a good person
and has a great, sweet spirit. So I could sit
back and see that personalities and every single one of them,
and then pray that I'm as good of a person.
(01:56):
You know, my kids, I'm so proud of them because
they're so great.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
On the side, my guest today is one of the
most famous moms in the world. Chris Jenner is the
matriarch of the Kardashian Jenner family and a brilliant businesswoman
in her own right. She's savvy, gracious, and quite possibly
(02:20):
the hardest working woman in show business. As someone who
personally grew up in the public eye, I can understand
the world that Chris lives in, and I know a
thing or two about what it means to have a
mom turned manager. But even so, Chris is one of
a kind. She spent her fifties creating a TV empire
(02:40):
and has directly influenced the way so many of us
spend our time and money. I'm so grateful she agreed
to chat with me, and I hope that you all
enjoy this one as much as I did. Here is
Chris Jenner. How are you, Chris Jenner?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I'm really good. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Thank you so much for coming on the show. I
know how busy you are, and personally, I'm so busy
and to think if just one more thing added in
your schedule, you know, it's enough to make me go
a little loopy. So I want to just thank you
very very much. And if I were to introduce you,
you don't need any introduction, but if you had to
(03:20):
introduce yourself, forgive yourself three titles, Uh what would those
titles be?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Mom? Entrepreneur, manager, producer, and exhausted. Throw that in there
for good luck.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I thought you were going to say mom first. I
really did think you were going to say mom first,
because it's the primary, primal relationship and you have multiples
of it.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I do, I do, and I think mom is what
I wanted to be since I was a teenager. I
just thought, what does my future look like as one
does when they're sixteen, and I thought I want to
be a mom. You know, I guess it was in
the late sixties or early seventies when I started feeling
that and thought, I just want to be a mommy.
(04:09):
That sounds really great to me, what a great job.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I answered that question to like Johnny Carson. I think
it was like in the early second.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Oh wow, what did you say?
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I said, Mom? He said, what would you what do
you want to do if you don't act? And what
you know if this were all all to finish tomorrow?
And I was thirteen, and I just said, I want
to be a mom. Yeah, it's all I ever knew
for sure that I wanted in my life right same.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And you know what's weird is I always knew I
was going to have six kids, really, and when I
ended up getting divorced after four, I thought, wait a second,
I was so wrong. And then I went on to
have two more and I went, now, bingo, I got it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Wow, yeah, well I was six the number.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I don't know. I just thought I'm going to have
six kids. I think part of it was I had
my mom raised us, my sister and I, and so
there was two of us, and I always wanted there
to be like twelve of us. I don't know why
I wanted a big, loud, noisy, chaotic family.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
You got it, that's what sounded.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I know, yeah, I achieved that.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
What does your mom do for a living?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, my mom always worked. When I was very very young,
she worked at a golf course. She worked in the
pro shop, and she was a pro, one of the
golf pros at the golf course, which was so like
interesting because it was such a male dominated sport in
my mind. And so then she opened a candle store
and a children's clothing store and a women's clothing store,
(05:50):
all in different times throughout me growing up. And that
was my first job was working in My grandmother had
a candle store also and that was one of my
first jobs was working at my grandmother's candle store when
I was like ten.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So that that's a Those are females as images and
as examples of what it is to be an entrepreneur,
probably before women were really even thought right to be
invited to do such a thing, I know.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I know, they were always working, always focused on, you know,
what the next day was going to be and what
they were going to accomplish. And those are the conversations
that I grew up on and when I was a
young girl, you know, all my friends were going to
the beach during the summer because we lived in San
Diego and Ma Joya and so my friends were learning
(06:39):
how to surf, and I was learning how to gift
wrap in the bathroom at my grandmother's store, and then
I could go to the beach, you know, after a
few hours of working. But I loved every second of it.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And what were you like as a little girl?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Bossy? I think I was probably bossy And I thought,
you know, when you're young and you have, I think,
an outgoing personality, and so I tried to learn as
much as I could about what adults were doing. Because
I was wanting to be older than I was. I
wanted to be able to drive. I couldn't wait till
(07:16):
I was sixteen, you know, you always want the next milestone,
at least I did. I liked hanging around, I think
older people. I think I loved being with my mom
and her friends and are going to, you know, a
certain party with my mom if there was a Christmas
party or something, I thought that was really fun. And
(07:37):
I had a lot of friends. But I really loved
being around older people.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
That's so interesting to me, especially giving your trajectory in life, right.
I mean, it's clear that you are in many ways
the brains behind your family's success. But what I find
fascinating is that yourself taught. Yeah, and you didn't go
to business school. Correct.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I did not go to business school. I did not
go to college. I graduated from high school and I
became a stewardess slight attendant. They started calling us a
flight attendant on American airlines. And I loved my job.
And I did that for I think just under two years.
And I got married and I got pregnant on my honeymoon.
(08:25):
You know, the Armenian ladies were counting the day, so
I knew it was my honeymoon because they were you
know what. So yeah, it was. It was a dream.
It was like I was. I was so excited to
be able to think that I was going to become
a mom when I was really young.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
You talk about the people that you were surrounded by
during that marriage and that and that part of your life.
Do you think they recognized your business savvy?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
You know, I don't know if they recognized my business savvy,
but I certainly almost accidentally recognized theirs. I found it
fascinating to sit in a room with Irving as Off,
for example, when he was perhaps having a meeting with
for other people that was just finishing up before we
(09:16):
were there for dinner or something like that. And there
was always something going on no matter where I was.
And I was exposed to so much at that time
and during those early years, especially in the music business,
because everybody that I was surrounded by seemed to be
in you know, the production business. It was Tony Thamopolis,
(09:37):
it was Terry Simmle, it was Irving as Off, it
was I mean, I could go on and on out.
It was all these people that ran studios and ran
music businesses and companies and MCA and Universal, and it
just went on and on. And those were the people
that were our friends.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
And what did you see like when you saw that,
what was exciting to you about what you were witnessing?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I think I had a front row seat to the
most exclusive lesson in how some of those conversations were happening,
what they were talking about, what went on behind the scenes,
you know, things like that was very interesting. And I
really didn't focus or wasn't aware of the fact that
(10:23):
these things that I was witnessing or hearing, or you know,
the world that I was living in would somehow be
part of my education later in life.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Did it inspire you to create your own line, your
own business.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I don't think at the time that I was inspired
in general and life like I thought, Oh my goodness,
to be able to be in this position and running
these huge companies and to be doing things that are
so exciting, you know, I thought, this is how I
was love to have a life like this. One day.
(11:03):
I don't think I thought it out loud. I think
it was in my dream space, in my head. And
I had a very dear friend, Kathie Lee Gifford, one
of my dearest friends in life and who's actually Kindle
and Kylie's godmother. And I watched her in her success
and she had her talk show for fifteen years on ABC,
(11:24):
and I was just remarkable what she did and what
she accomplished, and you know, kind of living that with her,
you know, taught me a little bit about TV. And
every single person that I came across and was friends
with and had relationships in my life gave me a
little piece of of what it was like to be
(11:45):
in the industry that we're in today, and I think
served me well because it was almost like an I
learned through osmosis of just being there.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Going back to that time after your first marriage ended,
I'm sure you didn't ever imagine you would get divorced.
None of us do.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, you don't set yourself up for that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
But what's interesting to me and relatable to so many women,
is that at that time in your life, you were
really ignorant about your own finances.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I was. I was, I had no idea. So when
I was married, and it was nineteen seventy eight, I
had been dating Robert for four years and we were
getting married, and in the seventies, I don't know, it
was a different time. It's a different world. I felt
(12:46):
like I had so much respect for my husband and
was so grateful and felt so blessed that I had
this man who was an attorney and really smart, really
great with me, really great with you know, advice, really great.
It was just terrific, and I thought, I am living
(13:07):
the greatest life right now, you know, and I don't
have to really worry about We didn't sit down and
you know, have a discussion about paying the bills. You know,
I knew I was living in this amazing, beautiful home,
but I didn't sit down and say, Okay, how much
is the gardener?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And I remember when I got divorced, my girlfriend, Shelley
said to me, Okay, let's think about your budget, like
what you know, this is what you're you've got to
work with, and let's talk about the bills that need
to be paid and that'll determine really about whether you're
going to be able to stay in this house. And
you know, we had to figure it out, and we
had a pen and paper. How much is the gardener?
(13:45):
I just looked at her with this blank I don't
I'm not sure, you know. So anyway, that was a
big awakening for me because I realized not only listen,
I realized a few things. I realized that I didn't
appreciate the life that I was living as much as
I should because I always lead with gratitude and love.
(14:09):
I really do, and I'm so grateful every single day
I get up and I thank God for every single
thing that I have, for my breakfast, to you know,
the whole thing. And I remember thinking, oh, I should
have been more. I didn't realize that some of these
expenses were bigger than life. And you know, I learned
(14:29):
lots of lessons that year.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Was it a struggle emotionally?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
I think it was. It was I was very scared.
I thought, how am I going to do this? I
have four kids, But I'm going to figure it out
and I'm going to throw my sleeves up and I'm
going to go to work and I'm going to make
it happen for my kids. And that was my inspiration.
I had seen my mom do it, I had seen
my grandmother do it. I had lots of role models,
(14:57):
and my mom and I talked about it and she
helped me just I mean motivated me emotionally, you know,
from the pure like you can do this. This is
going to be hard, but it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Well I call this show now What because it's about
those moments where you find yourself in an unprecedented situation,
one that you just you neither anticipated nor ever prepared for.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I didn't have a plan. I certainly didn't have a plan.
I just thought it was going to be okay. You know,
I was very naive in those days about how I
was going to make it happen, but thank god I
figured it out.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That to me seems like a huge now what moment? Yeah,
are there any other now what moments that come to
mind that you can look back at and feel.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Shaped you, oh dear, without crying.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
This is not an intended I just know.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I mean some really, I mean, you know, you never
know what's going to happen in your life. And I've
had so many crazy things happen, and without getting into
it on Monday morning, I think one of the biggest
things that happened was when my girlfriend Nicole died, you know,
she was Nicole Simpson, and that was that was talk
about now what you know that that was I didn't
(16:21):
I mean, I didn't intend to talk about that this morning,
but that would be a huge fork in the road
in my life about life and love and tragedy and
all of that. So and then I think that and
now what moment? As I get older, I think I
look back and think about, you know, the people that
(16:44):
you lose along the way. That's always really hard for me,
you know, really hard. And I think the older I get,
I think about it more like I look at my kids,
and some of my kids are now in their forties,
and I think, you know, when I was in my forties.
I had Kendall when I was forty, and I had
Kylie when I was forty one, and I think for
(17:04):
like ten years after that, I mean, you're raising kids
and you're feeding and babies and grade school, and you're
still in that mommy mode, which was such a blessing
for me. I was so thrilled to be doing that
all over again.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
How do you teach them about loss? How do you
grapple with that?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Well, you discover yourself more and more, but as you
get older, so you don't really you deal with it
at the time, and then you keep dealing with it
with each chapter of your life. I think with every
decade that I get older, I look at losing people
a lot differently than I did when I was Back
(17:42):
when I was forty, you know, and you just think
you're going to live forever, and you think your group
is going to live forever, and everyone's going to be,
you know, around always, and then you know, it kind
of starts with grandparents and you know, unfortunately some friends
when they're younger. But what I understand now, it affects
me more now. I think the what now. Moments that
(18:06):
are the most profound for me are life changing things
like divorce, meeting someone unexpected and new, or I think
losing someone you know or the most to me, the
most you know, or having a child. You know. I
remember having Courtney like it was yesterday, and that was
(18:27):
forty three years ago. It's insane, but that much time
has gone by, and I can tell you what I
was wearing, you know, what I put her in, and
the day that we came home from the hospital with
no instructions, just here you go. Yeah, I mean I
feel like I have and now what moment?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
You know?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Daily? But but real true, you know, moments like that
have come, and it's really about how you react.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I was an only child with my mother, and she
managed my entire career. And it's funny because Sharon Osborne
always referred to my mom as like the og mommage
of her right, you're smart enough to trademarket. My mom
did not trademarket. But there's such a fine line, and
(19:29):
this is something we never discussed and we didn't end
up with a success story. She was not savvy about business,
and there's so much in it that I remember as
being positive with having someone who loved me so much
be the one who was on the front lines for me.
But there is a fine line between being a savvy,
(19:50):
savvy business person and being a mom who wants to
protect her children. How do you walk that line?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Right? Well, I'm first and foremost always mom, And you know,
sometimes I can get lost in the business and making
decisions and trying to get through the to do list
for the day and the meetings and the zooms and
you know, the craziness of all of it. But at
the end of the day, that's where I'm happiest. And
(20:21):
not to say that your mom wouldn't have been happiest there,
but I think when you are trying to do something
that you feel is the best thing for your kids,
especially in business, and I am a bit impulsive sometimes too,
probably like your mom was a little bit, But I
(20:41):
definitely feel like mom is always my first responsibility and
the place where my heart is. And I think that
as their mom and their manager and the person who's
helping them to run businesses, I think that I just
want the best for them. That's all I want is
helping them. And I think I've learned by the way
(21:04):
I can't do it all. And I've had them tell
me that a million times that I, you know, you're
trying to do it all. But I think that what
I have learned along the way is really guiding them
and helping them to help build the right teams around
each thing that we do so that we do have
(21:25):
a support system.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
That to me is a huge, huge piece, because my
mother would not let anybody come in. And you know,
there were people who were very prominent, very brilliant agents
who wanted me as a client, but they wanted her
out of the way. Yeah, and that was never going
(21:47):
to happen. And had she had the wherewithal to be
okay with knowing that she couldn't do it all, you know,
I think our lives together would have looked a little
a little bit different. She's always gotten so much flack
for being my manager, and I will defend her to
the day I die. I also acknowledge the mistakes and
(22:10):
acknowledge missteps that I believe she thought she was doing
the right thing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah. Well, it's also intimidating, and it's hard when other
people may tell you that you're not doing it exactly
the way that it should be done. Or you know,
and it can be very threatening.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
How do you respond to that? How do you respond
because everyde has so much to say. I know it
makes me nuts, and they're all officionados in your life.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, there's a lot of noise.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
There's a lot of noise.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
So you just have to learn how to take the
advice that you do take from people or people that
you respect and love and trust and the people that
are you know, chiming in. I like to listen to
some of it, just to hear what others might be saying.
(23:01):
But I told my kids from the very beginning, stay
off the internet. You know, in those in the chat rooms.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
I don't think they listen to you.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
They didn't, they didn't. But you know when I say that,
I mean, don't listen to the ugly comments and that
it's only going to stress you out. Because I knew
that for myself, I could hear a thousand people tell
me beautiful things and one person when yeah, I would
say something really horrible and it would break my soul,
(23:34):
like what, you don't know me, you don't even know me,
how can you you know? So it was, you know,
it took really developing some thick skin just so you
can salvage your mental health, you know, learn how to
deal with And it's still hard. I mean, nobody wants
to hear something crazy and rude and it you know,
(23:56):
it can really hurt your feelings. I'm still human, but
I really try to. We're so busy. That's the good news.
That's the flip side is we're so busy every single
hour of every single day. If it's not work, it's kids.
And if it's not kids, it's grandkids and you know,
and their friends and travel.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
You get downtime, like do you ever just wish you
could just turn all the volume down? Like do you
get some of that?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I do? I do? I do during the summer. So
I just came back the night before last from a
couple of weeks away. That was really I really needed it,
and I it's such a blessing, it's such a you know,
I really don't take it for granted. So I try
to cherish every single day and then come back with
(24:46):
you know, you feel like, Okay, I'm roll up my sleeves,
I'm back.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I have to ask a totally totally personal question. My
daughter wants to be a model, and it terrifies me.
You know, my daughter looks at your daughter, Kendall, and
it's just I mean, she's never been more excited than
for me to talk to anybody except you. Do you
have any advice for me? It's such a different world
(25:12):
now than when I was modeling.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
You know, here's the thing. When Kendall started telling us
about her desire to be a model, Yeah, that was
real scary, believe it or not, because you just don't
know as a parent which direction that you want your
child to go in. And by the way, you're not
always going to have that control and be able to
(25:37):
make those decisions over again, so you don't want to
make the wrong one. So we had Kendall actually do
a complete presentation for us as a family, and she
had to give us all the reasons why and give
us a look book, and like what does this look
like for you? And why would you want to do this?
You know, she had to really off on why she
(26:02):
wanted to do this at this stage in her life
and what, you know, why it made sense to her.
You know, what were those passions about? Because you know,
everything we did with Kendall was very very specifically thought about.
I didn't know enough about the modeling world, like, you're
so savvy with that world. And I saw your documentary
(26:25):
and to me, what you went through as a young girl,
I mean, wow, you know, your story is so amazing.
I really loved your documentary, by the way, and I
love the way you told your story. You were so
honest and raw about it, and it was something that
I think everybody should see. That's a parent, by the way.
(26:46):
I think that not only your story is remarkable, but
the way that you know you went through your childhood.
So I wish I would have seen it earlier too,
you know, to help me make some decisions. But I
think that I was really happy about the way that
Kendall broke into the business because we did it very slowly,
(27:07):
smart with I hope, you know, we made the right
decisions about the people that were, you know, surrounding her.
We tried to get and go to the best in
the business and make sure she was guarded and you know,
taken care of. And she did it slowly and and
her way. Like when she broke into the business and
(27:28):
had her first fashion shows, we weren't even allowed to
be in the room. I mean, I was like, are
we sitting front row? She was like, you're not even
going to be there, like, no, I'm doing this on
my own.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
But it's important to know why they want to do
it exactly. The good news is and this is not
you know, I hear from a lot of younger people,
you know, you hear what do you want to be
when you grow up? And they say famous? And that's
not a vocation, that is not a passion, that is
not a life work, you know. And she has been
(28:03):
very very serious about why she wants to do it
and how she wants to do it. I'm going to
have her do that PowerPoint. You all are wrapping that's
the third season on Hulu.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, we're the third season is wrapped and we're actually
filming season four right now, and season three is on Hulu.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Do you ever see envisioning it at ending or.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You know, people used to ask me that question in
the very beginning and they would say, you know, Kindle
and Kylie were nine and ten when we first started filming,
and people would say how long you know. We'd be
on a press tour and they'd say, how long do
you see this going on? And I would jokingly say, oh,
when Kylie gets married, or when Kylie has a baby,
(28:48):
you know, and now Kylie has two kids, and she's
twenty five years old, and it's quite something and I
we love.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
What we do. Are you happy to have that time
capsule when you can when you look back and it's
like home movies but on a mega scale.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yes, it's the best, best, best, best home movie catalog
in the world. I'm so grateful.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And I think one of the through lines through it
is how I mean, notably Kim for but you and
your children seem to almost constantly not reinvent, but re
reveal a good way to you get more revealed as
time goes on and you've you've done it. You became
a mogul in your fifties. And I just want to
(29:36):
finish by saying, was there a dream that you felt
you may have had to give up as a younger
woman or a mom that you feel now that you
can pursue?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You know, I think that No. I think I did
everything that I wanted to do it exactly the time
that I was doing it.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
What are you excited about now?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
What am I excited about now? I'm excited about doing
things that are creative. I love working on my house.
I love, you know, being with my grandkids. I think
watching them grow up is really exciting and graduating and
you know, going from grade school to you know, middle
(30:17):
school and then to high school. And I'm looking at
all different ages and sizes of the grandkids and that
I never thought in a million years that I would
have twelve grandchildren.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Oh I love.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
That's a lot of Yeah, it's a lot. It's just delicious.
So I get excited about them, and I get I'm
really grateful for the time that we get to do
the show because we all work together and do projects
together and create businesses together.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
So well, that's what a mom wants. I mean. The
heartbreak that I have now is, you know, go to college.
I only have mine for one more year, and I
need excuses to have to have them be with me,
do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
And I'll be you know, in a business together.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
And it's funny because all you know, we did a
photo shoot for Hampton's magazine or something, and I sort
of grappled like do I want to put my kids
on the cover, Like do they want that? I don't
know what it's going to be like, they've been sort
of so far away from all of it, and that
was one of the best days of my life. I
got to sit next to them in here and make
up for four hours, you know, to look natural by
(31:19):
the way.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah right, I know. But that's the beauty of working
with your kids is creating these memories and this time
together that you might not have ordinarily had. But I
think it's really fun for me because our show is
like the foundation of what we do, but all the
things that are the offshoot and you know, the things
(31:41):
that happen because of it, and the businesses that we
can create together or not or just talk about it
or dream about it and do things together. And I
think that's that's the dream. I mean, that makes me
so happy.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
That was Chris Jenner. For more from her and her
fabulous family, check out The Kardashians on Hulu. That's it
for us today. Talk to you next week.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Now.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
What with Burke Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our
lead producer and wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research
and editing by Darby Masters and Abu Zafar. Our executive
producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Vahid Fraser.
What do you do when life doesn't go according to
plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one,
or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this
is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told
by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down
with a guest to talk about the times they were
knocked off course and what they did to move forward.
(00:27):
Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all
are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and
every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice
answers one question, now what? And is there one of
(00:50):
your children that's the most like you?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I think they all have different sides of me. Chloe
has my nesting side. Her and I are very much
alike the way we keep our houses, always trying to
clean something every five minutes. And then Kim is my
entrepreneurial side, and Courtney is my nostalgic side and loves
(01:13):
family and kids. And Kendall was over yesterday and she
loves nature, that little side of me that most people
don't know about, and she loves her horrors. Kylie has
this magical quality where she just thinks that, you know,
she works hard and everything's just going to work out,
and it does. And I was I think I was
(01:34):
like that. I was always dreaming but able to capture
that dream and reality. And then my son Rob is
so funny and so fear and he's a good person
and has a great, sweet spirit. So I could sit
back and see that personalities and every single one of them,
and then pray that I'm as good of a person.
(01:56):
You know, my kids, I'm so proud of them because
they're so great.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
On the side, my guest today is one of the
most famous moms in the world. Chris Jenner is the
matriarch of the Kardashian Jenner family and a brilliant businesswoman
in her own right. She's savvy, gracious, and quite possibly
(02:20):
the hardest working woman in show business. As someone who
personally grew up in the public eye, I can understand
the world that Chris lives in, and I know a
thing or two about what it means to have a
mom turned manager. But even so, Chris is one of
a kind. She spent her fifties creating a TV empire
(02:40):
and has directly influenced the way so many of us
spend our time and money. I'm so grateful she agreed
to chat with me, and I hope that you all
enjoy this one as much as I did. Here is
Chris Jenner. How are you, Chris Jenner?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I'm really good. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Thank you so much for coming on the show. I
know how busy you are, and personally, I'm so busy
and to think if just one more thing added in
your schedule, you know, it's enough to make me go
a little loopy. So I want to just thank you
very very much. And if I were to introduce you,
you don't need any introduction, but if you had to
(03:20):
introduce yourself, forgive yourself three titles, Uh what would those
titles be?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Mom? Entrepreneur, manager, producer, and exhausted. Throw that in there
for good luck.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I thought you were going to say mom first. I
really did think you were going to say mom first,
because it's the primary, primal relationship and you have multiples
of it.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I do, I do, and I think mom is what
I wanted to be since I was a teenager. I
just thought, what does my future look like as one
does when they're sixteen, and I thought I want to
be a mom. You know, I guess it was in
the late sixties or early seventies when I started feeling
that and thought, I just want to be a mommy.
(04:09):
That sounds really great to me, what a great job.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I answered that question to like Johnny Carson. I think
it was like in the early second.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Oh wow, what did you say?
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I said, Mom? He said, what would you what do
you want to do if you don't act? And what
you know if this were all all to finish tomorrow?
And I was thirteen, and I just said, I want
to be a mom. Yeah, it's all I ever knew
for sure that I wanted in my life right same.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And you know what's weird is I always knew I
was going to have six kids, really, and when I
ended up getting divorced after four, I thought, wait a second,
I was so wrong. And then I went on to
have two more and I went, now, bingo, I got it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Wow, yeah, well I was six the number.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I don't know. I just thought I'm going to have
six kids. I think part of it was I had
my mom raised us, my sister and I, and so
there was two of us, and I always wanted there
to be like twelve of us. I don't know why
I wanted a big, loud, noisy, chaotic family.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
You got it, that's what sounded.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I know, yeah, I achieved that.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
What does your mom do for a living?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, my mom always worked. When I was very very young,
she worked at a golf course. She worked in the
pro shop, and she was a pro, one of the
golf pros at the golf course, which was so like
interesting because it was such a male dominated sport in
my mind. And so then she opened a candle store
and a children's clothing store and a women's clothing store,
(05:50):
all in different times throughout me growing up. And that
was my first job was working in My grandmother had
a candle store also and that was one of my
first jobs was working at my grandmother's candle store when
I was like ten.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So that that's a Those are females as images and
as examples of what it is to be an entrepreneur,
probably before women were really even thought right to be
invited to do such a thing, I know.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I know, they were always working, always focused on, you know,
what the next day was going to be and what
they were going to accomplish. And those are the conversations
that I grew up on and when I was a
young girl, you know, all my friends were going to
the beach during the summer because we lived in San
Diego and Ma Joya and so my friends were learning
(06:39):
how to surf, and I was learning how to gift
wrap in the bathroom at my grandmother's store, and then
I could go to the beach, you know, after a
few hours of working. But I loved every second of it.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And what were you like as a little girl?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Bossy? I think I was probably bossy And I thought,
you know, when you're young and you have, I think,
an outgoing personality, and so I tried to learn as
much as I could about what adults were doing. Because
I was wanting to be older than I was. I
wanted to be able to drive. I couldn't wait till
(07:16):
I was sixteen, you know, you always want the next milestone,
at least I did. I liked hanging around, I think
older people. I think I loved being with my mom
and her friends and are going to, you know, a
certain party with my mom if there was a Christmas
party or something, I thought that was really fun. And
(07:37):
I had a lot of friends. But I really loved
being around older people.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
That's so interesting to me, especially giving your trajectory in life, right.
I mean, it's clear that you are in many ways
the brains behind your family's success. But what I find
fascinating is that yourself taught. Yeah, and you didn't go
to business school. Correct.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I did not go to business school. I did not
go to college. I graduated from high school and I
became a stewardess slight attendant. They started calling us a
flight attendant on American airlines. And I loved my job.
And I did that for I think just under two years.
And I got married and I got pregnant on my honeymoon.
(08:25):
You know, the Armenian ladies were counting the day, so
I knew it was my honeymoon because they were you
know what. So yeah, it was. It was a dream.
It was like I was. I was so excited to
be able to think that I was going to become
a mom when I was really young.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
You talk about the people that you were surrounded by
during that marriage and that and that part of your life.
Do you think they recognized your business savvy?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
You know, I don't know if they recognized my business savvy,
but I certainly almost accidentally recognized theirs. I found it
fascinating to sit in a room with Irving as Off,
for example, when he was perhaps having a meeting with
for other people that was just finishing up before we
(09:16):
were there for dinner or something like that. And there
was always something going on no matter where I was.
And I was exposed to so much at that time
and during those early years, especially in the music business,
because everybody that I was surrounded by seemed to be
in you know, the production business. It was Tony Thamopolis,
(09:37):
it was Terry Simmle, it was Irving as Off, it
was I mean, I could go on and on out.
It was all these people that ran studios and ran
music businesses and companies and MCA and Universal, and it
just went on and on. And those were the people
that were our friends.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
And what did you see like when you saw that,
what was exciting to you about what you were witnessing?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I think I had a front row seat to the
most exclusive lesson in how some of those conversations were happening,
what they were talking about, what went on behind the scenes,
you know, things like that was very interesting. And I
really didn't focus or wasn't aware of the fact that
(10:23):
these things that I was witnessing or hearing, or you know,
the world that I was living in would somehow be
part of my education later in life.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Did it inspire you to create your own line, your
own business.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I don't think at the time that I was inspired
in general and life like I thought, Oh my goodness,
to be able to be in this position and running
these huge companies and to be doing things that are
so exciting, you know, I thought, this is how I
was love to have a life like this. One day.
(11:03):
I don't think I thought it out loud. I think
it was in my dream space, in my head. And
I had a very dear friend, Kathie Lee Gifford, one
of my dearest friends in life and who's actually Kindle
and Kylie's godmother. And I watched her in her success
and she had her talk show for fifteen years on ABC,
(11:24):
and I was just remarkable what she did and what
she accomplished, and you know, kind of living that with her,
you know, taught me a little bit about TV. And
every single person that I came across and was friends
with and had relationships in my life gave me a
little piece of of what it was like to be
(11:45):
in the industry that we're in today, and I think
served me well because it was almost like an I
learned through osmosis of just being there.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Going back to that time after your first marriage ended,
I'm sure you didn't ever imagine you would get divorced.
None of us do.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, you don't set yourself up for that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
But what's interesting to me and relatable to so many women,
is that at that time in your life, you were
really ignorant about your own finances.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I was. I was, I had no idea. So when
I was married, and it was nineteen seventy eight, I
had been dating Robert for four years and we were
getting married, and in the seventies, I don't know, it
was a different time. It's a different world. I felt
(12:46):
like I had so much respect for my husband and
was so grateful and felt so blessed that I had
this man who was an attorney and really smart, really
great with me, really great with you know, advice, really great.
It was just terrific, and I thought, I am living
(13:07):
the greatest life right now, you know, and I don't
have to really worry about We didn't sit down and
you know, have a discussion about paying the bills. You know,
I knew I was living in this amazing, beautiful home,
but I didn't sit down and say, Okay, how much
is the gardener?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And I remember when I got divorced, my girlfriend, Shelley
said to me, Okay, let's think about your budget, like
what you know, this is what you're you've got to
work with, and let's talk about the bills that need
to be paid and that'll determine really about whether you're
going to be able to stay in this house. And
you know, we had to figure it out, and we
had a pen and paper. How much is the gardener?
(13:45):
I just looked at her with this blank I don't
I'm not sure, you know. So anyway, that was a
big awakening for me because I realized not only listen,
I realized a few things. I realized that I didn't
appreciate the life that I was living as much as
I should because I always lead with gratitude and love.
(14:09):
I really do, and I'm so grateful every single day
I get up and I thank God for every single
thing that I have, for my breakfast, to you know,
the whole thing. And I remember thinking, oh, I should
have been more. I didn't realize that some of these
expenses were bigger than life. And you know, I learned
(14:29):
lots of lessons that year.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Was it a struggle emotionally?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
I think it was. It was I was very scared.
I thought, how am I going to do this? I
have four kids, But I'm going to figure it out
and I'm going to throw my sleeves up and I'm
going to go to work and I'm going to make
it happen for my kids. And that was my inspiration.
I had seen my mom do it, I had seen
my grandmother do it. I had lots of role models,
(14:57):
and my mom and I talked about it and she
helped me just I mean motivated me emotionally, you know,
from the pure like you can do this. This is
going to be hard, but it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Well I call this show now What because it's about
those moments where you find yourself in an unprecedented situation,
one that you just you neither anticipated nor ever prepared for.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I didn't have a plan. I certainly didn't have a plan.
I just thought it was going to be okay. You know,
I was very naive in those days about how I
was going to make it happen, but thank god I
figured it out.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That to me seems like a huge now what moment? Yeah,
are there any other now what moments that come to
mind that you can look back at and feel.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Shaped you, oh dear, without crying.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
This is not an intended I just know.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I mean some really, I mean, you know, you never
know what's going to happen in your life. And I've
had so many crazy things happen, and without getting into
it on Monday morning, I think one of the biggest
things that happened was when my girlfriend Nicole died, you know,
she was Nicole Simpson, and that was that was talk
about now what you know that that was I didn't
(16:21):
I mean, I didn't intend to talk about that this morning,
but that would be a huge fork in the road
in my life about life and love and tragedy and
all of that. So and then I think that and
now what moment? As I get older, I think I
look back and think about, you know, the people that
(16:44):
you lose along the way. That's always really hard for me,
you know, really hard. And I think the older I get,
I think about it more like I look at my kids,
and some of my kids are now in their forties,
and I think, you know, when I was in my forties.
I had Kendall when I was forty, and I had
Kylie when I was forty one, and I think for
(17:04):
like ten years after that, I mean, you're raising kids
and you're feeding and babies and grade school, and you're
still in that mommy mode, which was such a blessing
for me. I was so thrilled to be doing that
all over again.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
How do you teach them about loss? How do you
grapple with that?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Well, you discover yourself more and more, but as you
get older, so you don't really you deal with it
at the time, and then you keep dealing with it
with each chapter of your life. I think with every
decade that I get older, I look at losing people
a lot differently than I did when I was Back
(17:42):
when I was forty, you know, and you just think
you're going to live forever, and you think your group
is going to live forever, and everyone's going to be,
you know, around always, and then you know, it kind
of starts with grandparents and you know, unfortunately some friends
when they're younger. But what I understand now, it affects
me more now. I think the what now. Moments that
(18:06):
are the most profound for me are life changing things
like divorce, meeting someone unexpected and new, or I think
losing someone you know or the most to me, the
most you know, or having a child. You know. I
remember having Courtney like it was yesterday, and that was
(18:27):
forty three years ago. It's insane, but that much time
has gone by, and I can tell you what I
was wearing, you know, what I put her in, and
the day that we came home from the hospital with
no instructions, just here you go. Yeah, I mean I
feel like I have and now what moment?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
You know?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Daily? But but real true, you know, moments like that
have come, and it's really about how you react.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I was an only child with my mother, and she
managed my entire career. And it's funny because Sharon Osborne
always referred to my mom as like the og mommage
of her right, you're smart enough to trademarket. My mom
did not trademarket. But there's such a fine line, and
(19:29):
this is something we never discussed and we didn't end
up with a success story. She was not savvy about business,
and there's so much in it that I remember as
being positive with having someone who loved me so much
be the one who was on the front lines for me.
But there is a fine line between being a savvy,
(19:50):
savvy business person and being a mom who wants to
protect her children. How do you walk that line?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Right? Well, I'm first and foremost always mom, And you know,
sometimes I can get lost in the business and making
decisions and trying to get through the to do list
for the day and the meetings and the zooms and
you know, the craziness of all of it. But at
the end of the day, that's where I'm happiest. And
(20:21):
not to say that your mom wouldn't have been happiest there,
but I think when you are trying to do something
that you feel is the best thing for your kids,
especially in business, and I am a bit impulsive sometimes too,
probably like your mom was a little bit, But I
(20:41):
definitely feel like mom is always my first responsibility and
the place where my heart is. And I think that
as their mom and their manager and the person who's
helping them to run businesses, I think that I just
want the best for them. That's all I want is
helping them. And I think I've learned by the way
(21:04):
I can't do it all. And I've had them tell
me that a million times that I, you know, you're
trying to do it all. But I think that what
I have learned along the way is really guiding them
and helping them to help build the right teams around
each thing that we do so that we do have
(21:25):
a support system.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
That to me is a huge, huge piece, because my
mother would not let anybody come in. And you know,
there were people who were very prominent, very brilliant agents
who wanted me as a client, but they wanted her
out of the way. Yeah, and that was never going
(21:47):
to happen. And had she had the wherewithal to be
okay with knowing that she couldn't do it all, you know,
I think our lives together would have looked a little
a little bit different. She's always gotten so much flack
for being my manager, and I will defend her to
the day I die. I also acknowledge the mistakes and
(22:10):
acknowledge missteps that I believe she thought she was doing
the right thing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah. Well, it's also intimidating, and it's hard when other
people may tell you that you're not doing it exactly
the way that it should be done. Or you know,
and it can be very threatening.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
How do you respond to that? How do you respond
because everyde has so much to say. I know it
makes me nuts, and they're all officionados in your life.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, there's a lot of noise.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
There's a lot of noise.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
So you just have to learn how to take the
advice that you do take from people or people that
you respect and love and trust and the people that
are you know, chiming in. I like to listen to
some of it, just to hear what others might be saying.
(23:01):
But I told my kids from the very beginning, stay
off the internet. You know, in those in the chat rooms.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
I don't think they listen to you.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
They didn't, they didn't. But you know when I say that,
I mean, don't listen to the ugly comments and that
it's only going to stress you out. Because I knew
that for myself, I could hear a thousand people tell
me beautiful things and one person when yeah, I would
say something really horrible and it would break my soul,
(23:34):
like what, you don't know me, you don't even know me,
how can you you know? So it was, you know,
it took really developing some thick skin just so you
can salvage your mental health, you know, learn how to
deal with And it's still hard. I mean, nobody wants
to hear something crazy and rude and it you know,
(23:56):
it can really hurt your feelings. I'm still human, but
I really try to. We're so busy. That's the good news.
That's the flip side is we're so busy every single
hour of every single day. If it's not work, it's kids.
And if it's not kids, it's grandkids and you know,
and their friends and travel.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
You get downtime, like do you ever just wish you
could just turn all the volume down? Like do you
get some of that?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I do? I do? I do during the summer. So
I just came back the night before last from a
couple of weeks away. That was really I really needed it,
and I it's such a blessing, it's such a you know,
I really don't take it for granted. So I try
to cherish every single day and then come back with
(24:46):
you know, you feel like, Okay, I'm roll up my sleeves,
I'm back.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I have to ask a totally totally personal question. My
daughter wants to be a model, and it terrifies me.
You know, my daughter looks at your daughter, Kendall, and
it's just I mean, she's never been more excited than
for me to talk to anybody except you. Do you
have any advice for me? It's such a different world
(25:12):
now than when I was modeling.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
You know, here's the thing. When Kendall started telling us
about her desire to be a model, Yeah, that was
real scary, believe it or not, because you just don't
know as a parent which direction that you want your
child to go in. And by the way, you're not
always going to have that control and be able to
(25:37):
make those decisions over again, so you don't want to
make the wrong one. So we had Kendall actually do
a complete presentation for us as a family, and she
had to give us all the reasons why and give
us a look book, and like what does this look
like for you? And why would you want to do this?
You know, she had to really off on why she
(26:02):
wanted to do this at this stage in her life
and what, you know, why it made sense to her.
You know, what were those passions about? Because you know,
everything we did with Kendall was very very specifically thought about.
I didn't know enough about the modeling world, like, you're
so savvy with that world. And I saw your documentary
(26:25):
and to me, what you went through as a young girl,
I mean, wow, you know, your story is so amazing.
I really loved your documentary, by the way, and I
love the way you told your story. You were so
honest and raw about it, and it was something that
I think everybody should see. That's a parent, by the way.
(26:46):
I think that not only your story is remarkable, but
the way that you know you went through your childhood.
So I wish I would have seen it earlier too,
you know, to help me make some decisions. But I
think that I was really happy about the way that
Kendall broke into the business because we did it very slowly,
(27:07):
smart with I hope, you know, we made the right
decisions about the people that were, you know, surrounding her.
We tried to get and go to the best in
the business and make sure she was guarded and you know,
taken care of. And she did it slowly and and
her way. Like when she broke into the business and
(27:28):
had her first fashion shows, we weren't even allowed to
be in the room. I mean, I was like, are
we sitting front row? She was like, you're not even
going to be there, like, no, I'm doing this on
my own.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
But it's important to know why they want to do
it exactly. The good news is and this is not
you know, I hear from a lot of younger people,
you know, you hear what do you want to be
when you grow up? And they say famous? And that's
not a vocation, that is not a passion, that is
not a life work, you know. And she has been
(28:03):
very very serious about why she wants to do it
and how she wants to do it. I'm going to
have her do that PowerPoint. You all are wrapping that's
the third season on Hulu.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, we're the third season is wrapped and we're actually
filming season four right now, and season three is on Hulu.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Do you ever see envisioning it at ending or.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You know, people used to ask me that question in
the very beginning and they would say, you know, Kindle
and Kylie were nine and ten when we first started filming,
and people would say how long you know. We'd be
on a press tour and they'd say, how long do
you see this going on? And I would jokingly say, oh,
when Kylie gets married, or when Kylie has a baby,
(28:48):
you know, and now Kylie has two kids, and she's
twenty five years old, and it's quite something and I
we love.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
What we do. Are you happy to have that time
capsule when you can when you look back and it's
like home movies but on a mega scale.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yes, it's the best, best, best, best home movie catalog
in the world. I'm so grateful.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And I think one of the through lines through it
is how I mean, notably Kim for but you and
your children seem to almost constantly not reinvent, but re
reveal a good way to you get more revealed as
time goes on and you've you've done it. You became
a mogul in your fifties. And I just want to
(29:36):
finish by saying, was there a dream that you felt
you may have had to give up as a younger
woman or a mom that you feel now that you
can pursue?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You know, I think that No. I think I did
everything that I wanted to do it exactly the time
that I was doing it.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
What are you excited about now?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
What am I excited about now? I'm excited about doing
things that are creative. I love working on my house.
I love, you know, being with my grandkids. I think
watching them grow up is really exciting and graduating and
you know, going from grade school to you know, middle
(30:17):
school and then to high school. And I'm looking at
all different ages and sizes of the grandkids and that
I never thought in a million years that I would
have twelve grandchildren.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Oh I love.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
That's a lot of Yeah, it's a lot. It's just delicious.
So I get excited about them, and I get I'm
really grateful for the time that we get to do
the show because we all work together and do projects
together and create businesses together.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
So well, that's what a mom wants. I mean. The
heartbreak that I have now is, you know, go to college.
I only have mine for one more year, and I
need excuses to have to have them be with me,
do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
And I'll be you know, in a business together.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
And it's funny because all you know, we did a
photo shoot for Hampton's magazine or something, and I sort
of grappled like do I want to put my kids
on the cover, Like do they want that? I don't
know what it's going to be like, they've been sort
of so far away from all of it, and that
was one of the best days of my life. I
got to sit next to them in here and make
up for four hours, you know, to look natural by
(31:19):
the way.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah right, I know. But that's the beauty of working
with your kids is creating these memories and this time
together that you might not have ordinarily had. But I
think it's really fun for me because our show is
like the foundation of what we do, but all the
things that are the offshoot and you know, the things
(31:41):
that happen because of it, and the businesses that we
can create together or not or just talk about it
or dream about it and do things together. And I
think that's that's the dream. I mean, that makes me
so happy.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
That was Chris Jenner. For more from her and her
fabulous family, check out The Kardashians on Hulu. That's it
for us today. Talk to you next week.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Now.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
What with Burke Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our
lead producer and wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research
and editing by Darby Masters and Abu Zafar. Our executive
producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Vahid Fraser.
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