Love & Marriage: S.E. and her husband talk mental health

It's the final episode of season 1! And S.E. has some NEWS (you'll have to listen to find out!). To cap off a year of 49 fun, insightful, and revealing conversations about the intersection of life, careers, and mental health, S.E. brings on a very special guest for episode 50 — her husband, John Goodwin. This episode is more personal than ever before, not only because they are talking about their relationship, but also because you'll hear about S.E.'s mental health breakdown from John's perspective. And stay tuned for the origin story of the most important question S.E. asks on each show (IYKYK). Listeners, as we wrap up the year, let us know your thoughts on the podcast, the guests, and who else you'd like to have S.E. sit down with. Email us at [e-mail]

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm a longtime listener, first second time caller. Now yeah,
right right, well, no, thanks for thinking me worthy to
be honored.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to Off the Cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote.
I have a few surprises to tell you about today.
It's some breaking news, if you will. This is our
fiftieth show, if you can believe it. And I've had
so much fun talking to our incredible guests and our listeners.
We've really shared so much, from our personal mental health

(00:33):
challenges to our career struggles. We've covered addiction, loss, depression,
ayahuasca journeys, and we've had a lot of laughs. We've
also shared our obsession with all things coffee, which has
been so fun too. It's just been an honor to
be in your ears for the past year, and I'm

(00:54):
so grateful to iHeart, our guests, our listeners for giving
us this awesome platform and the space to escape politics
for even just an hour every week or so and
talk like human beings. Okay, now the news, I do
have breaking news. The first bit of news is Off
the Cup is returning for a second season. That means

(01:16):
all new guests, all new conversations, all new stories, and
all new answers to that most important question. When is
it iced coffee season? And I can't tell you who,
but we already have some incredible guests lined up for you.
I am so excited to come back, and we're coming
back bigger and better. So in addition to more Off

(01:39):
the Cup, we're bringing back Talking Coffee, where we share
coffee news. I talk to my producers Lauren and Derek
about my most favorite indulgence even if I am on
the DCAF train these days, we don't need to talk
about that. Plus, and this is really exciting, We're adding
a talking politics pod for you guys. Now listen. And

(02:00):
we know you like Off the Cup to be your
escape from politics in the news, and so that is
not changing. But I also know that politics is on
your mind. There's a lot going on. It's disorienting, it's confusing,
it's concerning, it's overwhelming. I'm going to talk you through it.
Every week we'll cover the latest news or the thing
that everyone's talking about. I will be your shirt bup.

(02:22):
We can commiserate together, we can freak out together, and
maybe once in a while I'll even help you calm
down a bit. So all new Off the Cup all
new Talking Coffee, all new talking politics. So we've got
all the important bases covered. The first episode of the
season launches October fifteenth, so put that date on your calendar.

(02:44):
We're really excited to see you again. And now this
is the last bit of news, the final episode of
Off the Cup for the season, and to cap off
a terrific year of podcasts. I thought we needed something
special and there's no person more special in my life
who is of podcasting age than my husband, John Goodwin.

(03:06):
You met him on Talking Coffee. He's everyone's favorite new Englander,
he's my favorite grown up and now he's got his
own episode. John Goodwin, Welcome to Off the Cop.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
I can't believe him on the fiftieth. This is so exciting.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, a special episode deserved a special guest.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
I'm honored and a little, you know, teary eyed.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
On a scale of one to ten, no nervous, are you?

Speaker 4 (03:29):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Maybe a four to eight?

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Oh, four to eight is a wide swing.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, it keeps going back and forth to eight.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Okay, Well, I mean you've listened to the podcast a lot,
so at least you know how it's gonna go, which
is an advantage at least forty.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Eight of them.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly right. I wanted to have John
on because we have shared a lot on this podcast
and talking about mental health. It's a theme that runs
through it, and it's fun talking to famous people about
their lives and especially their challenges, because that can be
really meaningful for people when they hear that their favorite
comedian or actor or writer or performer had to struggle

(04:08):
or hit a speed bump or really needed help at
some point. It can have such a huge impact because
it makes us feel like we're less alone and it's
okay to not be okay if they can admit it,
surely we can. That's all great. But I think it's
just as important and impactful to hear from a normal
guy with a normal life about his mental health story,

(04:28):
because everyone's going through something and I bet, like me,
you've looked at your friends or your colleagues or your
neighbors and thought, why do they seem to be doing fine?
And I'm treading water or white knuckling it or drowning.
But you never know what other people are going through.
So that's what we're going to get into today.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Are you ready I'm ready, and I've always considered myself
perfectly average, normal, normal, and normal.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yeah, I'm happy to be the average show.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Well, that leads right into it. Would you describe yourself
if I described you as happy, go lucky and easy going,
would that be accurate?

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (05:04):
I think so. I think most things roar right off me.
I'll get you know, knocked off my feet for a
few hours or a day or two, but I'd roll
right back and I'm just happy to be around with
my family and doing the things they like to do.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
I think people, and I don't know if I would
include you in this, but people would describe me as
a cynic and someone who can be, you know, judgmental,
and I am not happy, go lucky. Do you think
that we're like good opposites in that way?

Speaker 1 (05:34):
I don't know who opposite we are, but I think
there's there's some differences that really work well together. They
mesh and we're very good for each other to get
through the day, the month, and the year.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
The day of the month and the year. That's such
a good way of putting it, because there is the
getting through the day, yeah, there's getting through a month, yeah,
And then there's getting through a year and like years.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, I know you mostly do better getting through the
day without me around.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
But I think for the month you'd like that. I
think for the month you really like having me around.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
In totality, I want you around. Yeah, in a day.
Sometimes it's when you're not here.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
I think that nine to five block is uh, probably
ideal for no.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
One needs an office, and by everyone, I mean you,
you need an office.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
And by office you mean our basement.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, all right, this is great. And I want you
to be like totally honest. And if that means you
disagree with me or correct me, well that's fine. Like
the point here is to be honest.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
I'll deal with you later.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah, so be super honest. So let's just do some
biography because because you're not famous, people don't know you.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
Okay, I was gonna push back.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
People don't know you, which which is great. You grew
up in Rhode Island. You're the youngest of three, but
practically an only child, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
I have two older sisters. One's eight years older, one's
twelve years older. So that's a huge difference. You know,
my older sister went off to college when I was
I don't know what's the math on this one? Like
Tannish kid didn't and my middle sister, you know, went
off to college. I remember being at her college graduation. Actually,
both of them as like a young.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Kid, a little kid. Yeah, yeah, would you say you
grew up like blue collar.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
Very very blue collar.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
I think my mom was a stay at home mom,
but did odd jobs, whether it's catering or working at
a women's boutique once in a while, but for the
most part, it was a stay at home mom. And
my dad worked outside in the construction trade, but not
initially in construction, but he was a he's a surveyor
and he was outside measuring.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
Land all day long and that's all he did.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
He didn't use computers. He you know, just just a
blue collar dad.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
And he'd take you out on like landscaping jobs and
fishing excursions, and you were outside a lot.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
With him, a lot.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, during the summer, you know, I'd go to work
sites with him, whether he was laying out a new
road or a new construction site or new development or
just you know, for laying out land for gas lines.
That I just hang out outside with him, help him out,
learn the trade a little.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Bit, not everyone leaves your town. Oh yeah, you know,
you know a lot of people that still live there. Yep,
that you grew up with. You do leave. What's your plan?
Say you're in high school, what's your plan or is
your plan to get out of there? Or is your
plan what are you thinking you'll do?

Speaker 1 (08:31):
I think I always knew I would end up somewhere else.
And I was kind of nerdy in high school in
the sense that I was in an ap government class
and we learned about lobbying, and I was like, that's
what I want to do.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
You're the guy that was like, at seventeen, I'm lobbying.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
I'm going to be I'm going to be a federal
lobbyist and a mover and shaker.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
To lobby.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
So, you know, I think DC was probably where I
was going to be. Went to school down there, et cetera.
So yeah, I think I think I knew in high
school i'd probably leave Lockdown. Both of my sisters had
at the time. My oldest sister was in either Hong
Kong or Singapore, I can't remember, but she left right
after college, went to England, then Hong Kong and Singapore.

(09:16):
So my oldest sister had been international forever, and what
was she.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Doing in Singapore? This is before I even knew you.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
She was in public relations at CNN.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, so long before I came to CNN, Lisa, your
sister was traveling the world with Ted Turner, opening up
new bureaus and leading their pr exactly. Yeah, like what
we're talking like probably twenty years before I get journalism.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
And then my middle sister, you know, she moved to Boston,
so she had you know, it's not that far, it's
you know, an hour up ninety five, but they had
both left town, and I just knew that's what I
wanted to do. I think, you know, Cranston was It's
the third largest town ind which is saying a lot,
but it's still kind of a small town. And I
was ready to leave.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, they're awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
So you moved to DC for college, get a job
on the hell, and kind of early on your dad dies.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah. My dad.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
I should have died in my first job, which was
at a company called New Media Strategies, which was a
great job as an entrepreneurial sort of startup, and my
dad died when I was probably twenty two or twenty
three in my first job out of college. And I
have two really interesting stories about that if you ever
want me to share them, but.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
This is where you do that, Sure you share them
with me.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
So the first one is I it's such a DC story.
I met a gentleman in a bar who turns out
worked for the CIA, and I expressed my interest in
doing the same thing. He took my number, and three
days later I got a call from the CIA. I

(11:04):
went through the process, I did a phone interview and
I got a letter in the mail saying you'll be
at Langley on this day for your evaluation for the
Clandestine Service.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
So exciting.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
I was going to be a spy. So yeah, and
I have the letter downstairs. I hope you know.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
And can I just tell you it's so hot, it's
so hot.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Well, we wouldn't have met because they told me. They
told me in the interview you will not have a family.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, and you were like, that's fine.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
So I have this letter, you know, this is the
day you'll appear at Langley for your interview.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
And between the time I get the letter and an interview.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
My dad dies and I contact the CIA and asked
for a deferment said, as my father not just a
death in the family. My father has died like days ago, yeah, exactly,
And I had to go to the funeral like the
time of this interview, and they said, sorry, that's the
time of your interview, and that's it.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Well, I listen weight for funeral, I know.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, if I have to put a package in a mailbox,
am I not going to do it because my dad died?

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Well, that's exactly right.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
Right, put a weight axe on a mailbox.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
So that's one aspect which I think, you know, how
would my life have changed if you know, we know,
we wouldn't have met you, you know, and our son,
like entirely different trajectory had my dad not died when
he had, which I, you know, think about.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
It's the way life works, right ye.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
The other one was I was also bartending at the
number one night club in DC at the time, which
was Polyesters yep nineties floor eighties, floor seventies floor, number
one night club.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
You know, two thousand people a night in this place, and.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
I had worked there for probably five or six years
at the time, while working on the hill for extra
money alright, sorry, working you know, other jobs for extra money,
and a new manager came in and after like two
weeks he said, you know, I just don't like your
energy behind the bar. You do, you sell plenty of drinks,
you do, You're fine, but like there's just no flare,

(13:10):
there's no you know, you're not exciting.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
And I was like, Okay, I.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Sell a ton of drinks, like I'm not flipping bottles,
I'm not Tom Cruise.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
I'm sorry, but like, check the register rings now.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
So so he he fires me after years of working
at this place, kind of out of the blue. But
I had worked bartending basically every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday
for six or seven years at this point, no weekends off.
And a few days after I get fired, my dad

(13:44):
dies and I had planned to go home for that
weekend anyway because it was my first weekend off in
like six years, and time between so planned the trip
at the flights, et cetera. Between the time I got
fired and I got home he had died, I wouldn't.
I'm sorry he was. I was there when he died.

(14:06):
Had I not gotten fired, would not have been home
to say goodbye to my dad.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah. Right, So, and that's like life's weird.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
But it's spooky, like goosebumps for me. If I hadn't
gotten fired for this job, I thought, for no reason,
would not have been there to say bye to my dad.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah. So you go back to d C. Do you
feel different?

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah? I felt different.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
And I tried to get back home because my mom
was going to be alone now. And I started to
apply for jobs in Rhode Island, Boston and went on
a bunch of interviews and thought that's what was going
to happen. Like time in d C was up. Time
to go home, take care of my mom. Because my
mom was not very independent. She would say, I've never
been anyone else but missus Goodwin. And I wasn't sure

(14:53):
she could take care of herself and knew how she was,
you know, stay at home mom.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, so I thought, all right, well this is what
I I do. Started to make plans to move up
and had two job opportunities, one in Boston one in Providence,
and I was like, don't do this, like this is
not where your career is, This not where your life
is supposed to be. You know, I'll be fine. So,
you know, I didn't want to go against their wishes.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
So I just stayed in DC.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Okay, do you need a zip of water before you
break into tears? I know my husband m let's recruit.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
Let's just who's cutting onions in the kitchen?

Speaker 2 (15:37):
You take an haser turn, because we're about to come
to the part of your story where your life changes
forever because you meet me.

Speaker 5 (15:44):
Right, Okay, how do we meet?

Speaker 1 (15:57):
We met at the Republican National Convention in Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Oh sexy?

Speaker 3 (16:04):
I mean, is this two thousand and eight? Yeah, okay,
two thousand and eight.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, I was John McCain is the nomination.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, I was a lobbyist.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
I had fulfilled my high school treatment coming to a
federal lobbyist.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
And I was on the hunt.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
And you were there, I think, promoting your book. And
we met and actually just became friends from there and
stayed friends for.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
A few years.

Speaker 5 (16:29):
Yea.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
And then we eventually do get together, and it's an
exhilarating time, but it's a challenging time because I'm in
New York, You're in DC. And at this time we
both get like our dream jobs. I get a show
at MSNBC that you know I've been working toward. And
you become chief of staff to a member of Congress.
This is your biggest job at the time on the

(16:52):
hell and my biggest job in media, and neither of
us want to leave our lives. But we are newly
in love and about to get engaged. What's going on
in your mind at this time as we're like both
just so happy in our lives, but our lives are
not together.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, I mean, I didn't think we had to necessarily
disrupt our lives to be together. We were doing modern people. Yeah,
we were mobile, We know how to use trains and drive. Right,
you know, we weren't just pen pals anymore. Right, but

(17:31):
we you know, New York DC Quarter, it's not that far.
And I think I calculated back then there was probably
one weekend that we weren't together, kind of through our courtship,
if you will, right, Like, it didn't seem hard, and
we had great weekends together and we'd take a trip
during the week like it just yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
It almost made it both.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
It made it easy for us to have our careers
and our jobs but also be together. Like I didn't
it didn't seem hard at all for me.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Well, and I wasn't pressuring you, You weren't pressuring me.
We were actually okay with things how they were, and
then I don't know, disx Macina or maybe one of
these life interventions. Jeff Zucker comes to the rescue. He
had just left NBC for CNN and was trying to
get me to go to CNN, not just to leave,

(18:19):
but to go to DC CNN to launch the new
Crossfire reboot. And even though this would have solved all
our problems, Jeff Zucker wants me to move down to
DC we can finally be together. I said no to him.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Three times, and and I encourage you to do what
you had to do. Yeah, you know, even though like
you said, it would have brought you down to DC
would have solved these problems, the problem.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, I wanted you to do what was right for
you in your career, not just.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Oh no, you like no pressure. You were happy to
let me reject these offers, and then the offer got
too good. Finally said yes, and I'm so glad I did.
I enjoyed MSNBC a lot, but obviously change my life.
Everything about that vision when it came, how it happened,
changed my life. And then we get to be together.

(19:04):
So then we have that chapter. We have Jack CNN
again wants to move me back up to the city,
this time for a new show. And it's my own show.
So another big career opportunity. We move up to Connecticut.
You have to leave the place you've been for twenty years.
All your friends, all your jobs have been there, Your

(19:28):
entire life is there. It's a company down. What are
you thinking as you're preparing to leave all of that behind?
For me? I mean one for my job.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
Yeah, I never thought I would leave DC. I never
envisioned it.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
And I had always said and this sounds so cliche,
and I'm sure other people have said it, like when
I stopped being impressed by the Washington Monument in the
White House and the Capitol Building and these sites that
I was lucky enough to see every day that most
Americans probably get to see, you know, once in a
lifetime or on a postcard. When I got tired and
no longer impressed than I it would be time to go.
And I hadn't reached that now at this point, right,

(20:03):
and I had a strong network. It's such a networking town.
I mean, that's that's the currency.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
It is the currency.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
That's how you survive there by having these networks and
that's how you get your next job and three jobs
down the road. So I just didn't see it happening.
But the family was too important, and I knew again,
happy go Lucky, I'd figure something out. Yeah, Like it
wasn't gonna be the end of the world.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
At this point, friends had family, so it was a
different town than it was when it was my twenties
or thirties, right, And you know, I missed New England.
I think folks who'll argue whether or not Connecticut is
New England, particularly this part of Connecticut it's Yankeeville. But
I know, but you know, I was excited the opportunity
to raise Jack as a New england Er like I was.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
And I think that's how I sweetened the deal. I
was like, we won't move to the city, right, I'll
work in the city, but we'll move to a New
England town. I'm from New England too, Like, we'll move
to a place you love.

Speaker 3 (20:57):
Yeah. If this had been moved to New York City,
it would have been different cover.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, I know you wanted to know part of that.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah. I also think career wise, I saw it was
an opportunity.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, because I had been in politics and government relations
are in and around the government for so long. I
had always wanted to take that next step to go
in house corporate communications. After being a pre secretary and
a communications director and a PR consultant.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
I was like, Okay, this is an opportunity.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
I'm leading to the biggest city, go to the biggest
city leaving DC. Yeah, and maybe this is my chance
to be in house corporate comms. So I was excited
about the prospects of that as well. And it just
made sense, you know, kind of mature career wise, professionally,
but also you know, personally with the family.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
And it did. I mean, it all worked out. You
got a great job. I start my job, We move
up to Connecticut, We settle into a very nice suburban
New England town, small town, great schools, literal white pick offense,
literal white pick offense, adorable, kiddo, black lab, I mean, perfection.
Accept a couple years and I have a nervous breakdown.

(22:07):
And I want to talk about this from your point
of view, because I've already talked about from mine a
lot on this show. It's COVID, but we've gotten through
COVID pretty well. But I have this nervous breakdown. I'm
very clearly not okay. How do you interpret those first
days before we really know what's going on, what's going

(22:28):
through your mind?

Speaker 1 (22:30):
I'll be very candid, please. And I think I've said
this for a long time. I'd never understood mental health
and people's mental health challenges because I had not felt
them myself. I couldn't empathize. I couldn't understand, you know.
I'd always think, just get over it, just move past it.
How bad can it be? Despite having family members who

(22:51):
had struggles, yeah, very some very close to the members
who had struggled, It's still I still couldn't comprehend it
because it just didn't affect me. And I was, you know,
out of bed, figure it out, shake it off, right,
But you know, I didn't understand it. So this was
a shock because the closest person to me was now
going through it and I didn't understand it. Yeah, And

(23:13):
I think it took me weeks or months or maybe
I'm still working on understanding it, right, But in that moment,
I just knew I had to take care of Jack. Yeah,
make sure things are in the house, kept going, Yeah,
continue working my job, and support you with whatever you needed. Yeah,
that's that's all I knew, without knowing exactly what was

(23:35):
going on, how you got there where you were going.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
I had to support.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
But to your credit, you never asked me like explain it,
make it make sense to me. You never put that
on me to like help you, really convince you of anything.
I would tell you how I felt, you'd accept that
completely unconditionally, and you'd move to what do we need
to do? What can I do? How can I be helpful?

(24:02):
So even though maybe you weren't understanding, maybe you were
even judging, I don't know, you didn't share any of
that with me, so that didn't become part of my problem.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
I could see it with my own two eyes.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
What could you see?

Speaker 3 (24:14):
I could see what it was doing.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
To you, that I was a different person, And I
could see it manifesting physically in how you were acting,
caring yourself, how you looked.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
So you did you didn't think I was like indulging some.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Bad day, Oh right, okayah No, But despite you know,
family members, I had never seen it up close and personal,
physically manifest.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
Itself like I did with you. Yeah, and that hurt.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
I never want to see you like that. But you
know I I that brought it home, like this is
real and you know I just need to support her,
help her figure out how to get through it.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Are you sad or angry that I've thrown this new
wrench into our dynam at this moment? You can be
completely honest. Are you as part of you selfishly but
but normally saying this is not what we need? Like
what everything was going great?

Speaker 3 (25:14):
No? I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
I think I just I felt bad for you, and
I think without being able to empathize, I was sympathizing, yeah,
and feeling very bad for you and wanting to protect
Jack and make sure Jack wasn't as disrupted. You know,
there were some moments where I didn't know what to
do or how I was going to step up or

(25:38):
a role, what role I was to play, or how
long this would last? Like is this the the future?
Is this long term? Is this the new normal? For ever?

Speaker 3 (25:47):
And ever? I didn't know any of those things, So
there was some feeling sorry for myself.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
Sure a little bit, Yeah, that was that was hard.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Did you ever go to like the worst possible place,
like what if my wife needs to be institutionalized.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Worse than that you.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Went to worse than that? Yeah, what was worse than that?

Speaker 3 (26:09):
You doing something to hurt myself? Yeah yeah I went there.
Yeah yeah, uh yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
It was hard and I did feel a little sorry
for myself at I think it's I'd like to think
it's hard not to.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
I think that's totally normal.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
It's you know, extra burden that you were anticipating. It
was new. Yeah, you didn't ask for it, like overnight,
it was.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
It happened so fast and flipped a lot of things
on its head. So yeah, that was tough, and you know,
I don't want to sound like like I'm the victim.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
No, This is the important conversation to have because if
someone's listening who is not experiencing a mental health crisis,
but is the spouse of someone who is, or the
parent of someone who is, or the child of someone
who is, it's important to hear how this impacts everyone
and the things that like helped me in this moment,
and the things that you did to help yourself, because

(27:08):
what if we had both.

Speaker 3 (27:08):
Fallen apart nightmare for our kido?

Speaker 2 (27:12):
Yeah yeah, so it would have been unreasonable to expect
you to not take any of this on emotionally, Yeah,
but you also knew I've got to I've got to
navigate this as the strong parent right now. And I
not that I was always the strong parent, but I
was always a very strong partner in this family. And
suddenly I needed to be taken care of, which was new.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
I think you know two things that I think helped
me in the situation. One is going through my dad's
death at a young age, where I had to call
the funeral home to.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
You had to be like a grown up.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, I had to tell my grandfather.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
So having had to step up for my mom, my sisters,
other people in my family, I kind of had lived
through that. It's not, you know, to apples, but I
had almost had training and okay, it's time to step up.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
And I think.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Secondly, you know, acts of service is kind of how
I show love sometimes.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
That's your love language.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, so it helps that. Okay, No, I have to
do X Y zero in the house. I have to
make sure Jackets fed. I have to make sure Jackets
off to school. I have to make sure Sarah is
you know, see is getting the water. You know.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
I feel like there wasn't a didn't feel like a
burden to me because that's how.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
I show I love to you anyway.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, those having those two things actually helped me a
little bit in those tough few days.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, I imagine you didn't tell many people what we
were going through because it was private. Was that lonely?

Speaker 3 (28:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yeah, it was only I didn't you know, I didn't
have a whole lot of folks to talk to up
here anyway after moving up. Yeah, and you know, you know,
your son's little league friends dads aren't your friends. Those
are different friends than friends you grew up with or
had talked more shaded and yeah, you know, I wasn't sure.

(29:10):
It's also tough to talk to your family about it
because I think when you're in a marriage, there's always
the chance of some judgment from the in laws.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
I don't think we have that in.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Our We have great in laws all around, but.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
It's always it's in the back of my mind. Yeah,
you know, is this when my mom is like, I
always knew there was something, is this one that's going
to come out?

Speaker 3 (29:34):
So I think that was always in the you know.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
But also I just respected your privacy because not only
is this a private matter, but being a public person,
it's so much more important to be private about it.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
But then I tell everyone, Yep, I didn't ask you
if I could write about my breakdown, which I did,
or talk about it on TV or in podcasts, which
I did. I just did it. Was Is that okay
that I didn't even ask you?

Speaker 3 (30:04):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (30:04):
I actually feel bad about that. I don't I don't
need permission to tell my story, but like I probably
should have asked you, I'm about to tell people this
and it's very personal about our family. Are you okay
with this?

Speaker 1 (30:20):
I don't remember at the time, but I do think
I knew is your story to tell, and I think
there was some healing in it for you to tell it.
I think there's a lot of good, positive reasons for
you to tell this story. I think I remember being
okay with it, and maybe maybe we.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Did talk a little bit before I did. Maybe I
did say, like I want to start talking about it.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
I recall that.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
But also to the previous point, you know, the muzzles off,
and now I can talk to my family, my friends.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Right, and you're not hiding a secret, right, Yeah?

Speaker 1 (30:52):
I can just send them to your you know, your
an article will be like, see this link.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
This is why I've been at laughed in mind to
work lately.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah insert Lincoln slack Yeah yeah, yeahah No.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
I think it made it easier.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
But also the most important part of this is by
reading what you're writing, by hearing you talk about it,
helped me understand it, but also gave me tools to
talk about it. So I wasn't using the wrong terms,
the wrong phrase.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Here is how she's talking about it, so I can
use the same language.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
Yeah, exactly. It gave me the language and helps me
talk about it with others.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah. Well, I didn't want to get sick over it
because I was already dealing with a lot, and secrets
keep you sick, So I just wanted to release it
and get it out there because I wasn't ashamed of it.
I was scared and I was confused, but I wasn't ashamed,
and keeping the secret felt like shame, and it's why
I not in that moment, but eventually, over time, in

(31:49):
an age appropriate way is to talk to Jack about
it as well, because I don't want him to think
it's something I'm ashamed of afraid to talk about. Because
I don't want him to be afraid to talk about it.
So it's not like we celebrate it. But you know,
I think that was intentional for me. This is not
a shame situation we're going to have in this family.

(32:11):
And I remember telling him once. I think I remember
telling him that I had missedcarried before him, and he
was like, oh, I don't know, I don't want to
talk about it. Let's keep that secret that's private in
our family. And I said, we don't have to talk
about it, but it's not a secret because I'm not
ashamed of it, and I don't want you to be
ashamed of some of these things that happen in life. Yeah,

(32:36):
so that was part of my reason in talking about
it too.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
Sure, it's funny because our son is one who is
embarrassed of hearing good things about himself.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yes, he gets very embarrassed.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
He cannot stand praise or you know, if I tell
a story of something I'm proud of. So it's yeah,
you know, I can't imagine I'm talking about this kind
of stuff.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
I know.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
No, I think.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
I think in a weird way, I liked you talking
about it for a number of reasons, you know, like not.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
Living in secrecy, giving me the tools, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
But I also wanted you to heal, and I think
if you thought that was important for you to heal,
then you should one hundred percent be doing it.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
And it was, yeah, helpful, And I'm not embarrassed at all.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (33:16):
I'm proud of what you've done since and how you've
handled it and how you've taken steps to feel better
and understand it. So I have zero embarrassment about this
at all. And I hope that's okay.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
That's that's more than anyone could ask for. So I
get help. I'm struggling, but I'm getting better. I'm working
through it. And then you lose your job. Yeah, until then,

(33:54):
you'd been employed consistently, one very big job after another
since moving up here, lots of people working under you,
and this one wasn't a total surprise. You knew the
company was going to restructure. You knew that you were
going to be given a package to leave, which was helpful.
It's not like the rugs pulled out from under you.
One day you have a big job, the next day

(34:14):
you don't. We knew this was coming, but still, what
are you thinking as you're about to be unemployed for
the first time in your life.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
So in a way, I was a victim of my
own success because my company was acquired by a much
bigger company. Yeah, and as these things go, you know,
the executive team was given packages because they didn't need
a second head of comms and a second head of legal,
et cetera. So, you know, my first thought was, I'm

(34:45):
going to find a new job in two months. I
am sought after. I know I'm good at this. I'm
coming off a huge job. People knew who I am.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Several huge jobs.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah right, several huge jobs are row plus the political background,
which I think helps.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
This is going to be easy.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Have you know, nice padding in my bank account? When
I get rehired in just a couple of months.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
And you're thinking, gosh, I hope I I'd like to
take a little time off. I hope I have enough off. Yeah,
get some hunting and fishing exactly right.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
I wanted like just a couple of months to play
some golf and hunting fish before I, you.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Know, get back in the next.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Big job, which I thought would be very similar on
par you know, either lateral or a step up for
the next job.

Speaker 4 (35:28):
That did not happen, right, right, Yeah, Months go by, yes,
and you are I mean, you were actively looking for
jobs every single day, talking to everyone, headhunters, recruiters.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Months go by. What are your fears as the months
go on and you're not employed?

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, I think as I started getting some rejections, and
you know, I was working with the recruiters sometimes for
months on the same job and had six, seven, eight
interviews for these positions to get to the final sort
of interview and then be told, you know, we're going
to a different direction. Mostly because of geography, the people
weren't hiring remotely anymore. But but every as those started

(36:13):
to add up, I started to get pretty nervous, pretty
scared nobody wants me.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
I started to blame certain.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
Things, you know, social factors, social.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
Factors, political factors, you know, really.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Started to blame those and you know, almost justify that
as the reason these things are happening, economy getting worse,
and I heard that from the people. Then I just
stopped getting interviews. So it went from I mean, at
one point I had four jobs that I was interviewing
for and I was like, oh shit, I have to

(36:48):
choose one of these. And it was like am I
ready to go back to work, Like what if I
choose the wrong one? None of them materialize, and then
you know, the crew started to fall off. I'd apply
for a job and not get any response, or you know,
we're going in a different direction. And just kept happening
and happening, snowballing and snowballing, and I eventually get to

(37:11):
the point where I just thought I was never going
to get hired, like ever, like no one's gonna want me.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
I remember you saying that, like I'll never get a job,
and you know me saying, of course you will, of
course you will. But I'm also watching this and you're
not the only one going through it. And I think
that's why it's important to tell this story because a
lot of men were in this situation, and so we're women,
but specifically men suddenly out of work or not getting

(37:39):
the jobs that they believed they were always going to have,
and that's so disorienting and disruptive, and it made you angry,
very angry.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Yeah, And I think i'd always put some value on
my job for who I am.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
I don't think you put some value. I think, like me,
we're a lot alike in this regard. We're very identified
by our work, and that was a big part of
who you think you are.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Your work absolutely, yeah, and I think you know, whether
it's networking purposes, you know, in DC, it's the first
question everyone asked, you.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Know, what do you work for?

Speaker 3 (38:13):
It? For it?

Speaker 1 (38:14):
And for twenty years I had been proud of my jobs,
and that's had defined me, despite my first boss and
one of my mentors saying, your job does not define you.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, you forgot that real quick.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
Forgot it real quick. Yeah, And it had been part
of who I was for so long.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, And you know, those months turned into two years
and I started my own PR firm and had some
great clients and clients that I loved and and you know,
had some money coming in.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
But the work was sort of fulfilling and I love those.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Clients, but it wasn't the full time job that I
thought I would get. So my expectations were actually tanking
the reality and that I had a good job. I
was enjoying it, I had great clients, I had money
coming in, but I was so mad that I wasn't
getting the job I thought I was going to get. Yeah,
it just kept kind of snowballing into more and more

(39:10):
anger and dread. I think dread is probably even more
descriptive the worker.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
So that dread and that uneasiness, I'm sure was defined
a lot by Okay, I've been in this job, in
this industry for a long time and I want to
be back in it and I'm not, and that's annoying.
What percentage of it, though, was as a man, as
a father, as a provider? Like, did that factor in

(39:40):
at all? Because you know, because I work too. It's
not like you are the soul breadwinner, but I know
you feel very responsible for a family and you are,
so how much of it was provider man stuff?

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Yeah? A lot, right, you know. I mean you know
I pay our shape of our expenses course, yeah, and
you know we we well for.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
People who don't know. Sometimes I have been low in
the job count, and you are like one responsible for,
you know, keeping up our life. So it's not like,
you know, it's not like you're married to an heiress. Yep,
that's not our life, guys.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
One of these days that will line up for we're
both in the best jobs possible, No, but usually we're not.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Usually it's you know, one of us is carrying the load,
the other one's working really hard. But and then it
goes back and forth, and so you've been in the
position of carrying the load and now you're sort of
under underwater in that respect. And so you know, I
just want for people who know, like, I'm not an heiress. No, okay,

(40:48):
we both have to work here.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, it's it's a lot because whether you think about it,
it's just traditional roles.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
But it's actually more than that. It's reality, right.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
I think it takes two incomes to survive now, and
I wanted to do my share.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
And even if you were an heiress, I think I
still would have these feelings.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
Of wanting to work, Yeah, to work.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
And provide and I have, you know, on top of
the family, I also have hobbies, right that I want
to support and do. And I think one of the
tough aspects of this is I started to feel like
I didn't deserve my hobbies.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, yeah, talk about that a little more, because that
was hard. I would convince you, like, go fishing today,
and you felt like I don't deserve to, Yeah, because.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Because I didn't think I'd earned the right to go
fish or to do any of my hobbies because I
wasn't working hard enough or enough, or earning enough to
feel like I deserved some recreation, whether it was fishing
or hunting or a round of golf. And you know,
fishing doesn't cost money. I have the equipment already. Yeah,

(41:55):
I just got to go down to the beach, right
and you know, throw some lures in the water. But
that was a block for you, Yeah, because I felt
like I should be doing something else, I should be working,
even when there necessarily wasn't work. It was a total
block that I did not deserve to enjoy myself, take
care of myself, treat myself, do things I like because

(42:16):
I wasn't providing and earning and doing the job that
I thought I deserved.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
And I also remember, you know, obviously I traveled this
journey with you. It got to a point where I
got where you were angry. We talked about why you
were angry, We talked about why you were frustrated. We
were talking the whole time, but it got to a
point where you just weren't yourself anymore, and I felt
like I was losing you. And you kept saying, well,

(42:41):
once I get the job, all of this will turn around.
And I'll be fine again. And that could have been true,
But I also know the slippery slope of mental health
and the slope to depression, which is so hard to
pull yourself out of when you get too far into it.
And so I remember just saying to you at some
years in Okay, I think I want you to talk

(43:05):
to someone, like I'm gonna need you to talk to someone,
because I don't want to lose you to this on
your road to getting the job that you think is
going to solve it all. Because I believe that you'd
get there, I don't want to lose you in the process.
So I think I gave you like an ultimatum you
gave me ultimate I don't know if that was the
right thing to do, but like that's what I did.

(43:25):
I said, you need to talk to someone. Now.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
I'm not sure I would have if you hadn't, So
you know, it felt like tough love and felt a
little harsh, and I was a little angry.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
Yeah, when ultimatum came through.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Did I But did I say do this or I didn't.
I don't think there was an or else.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
I don't know if there was an exact sort of
it wasn't like.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
You need to do this or something's going to happen.
I just say you need to talk to someone now, Yeah,
because I think I talked to you about like this.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Is irresponsible now, like we can't do this anymore.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
We can't do this and to be a responsible partner, father, employee,
all the things you need to start talking to someone.
I think that was the conversation.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
Yeah, yes, I think so. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
It wasn't like you know, you have to do this
or else or I'm gonna do x y ze either. Yeah,
more of like you you have to do this, yeah,
for yourself and for us. And you know, I'd always
my whole life he I'd never had challenges with mental health, right, right,
So this was new to me. And also even if
I did, I always thought I was smart enough to
figure it out on my own and I don't need

(44:34):
to talk to someone. I'll just work it out in
my brain and I'll be fine, which I think I
did for some minor things, you know, whether it's my
dad passing or you know, some other things that were
traumatic or had caused some challenges, I'd always just thought
myself through it. Yeah, And I think my positive attitude
always just.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
Helped me get through.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Also, this was different, and the blocker here was the practical.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
Solution that I thought.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
I knew and had, which was, I'll just get this
job and every feeling, every feeling I have will go away.
I'll no longer, you know, be angry, I'll no longer
be sad, I'll no longer have this sense of dread
and whatnot.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
But I remember, I.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Mean, this was happening when like I was on the
couch for like three days straight and crying, not eating.
The physical manifestation in me was shocking, Like I'd.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Never treated yourself that way.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah, I had never felt this way, particularly not eating
as we do. It's probably shocking, but I wasn't hungry.
I lost my appetite. I didn't, you know, I didn't
want to go do my hobbies. I just wanted to
sit on the couch. And you know, I didn't want
to do that anymore either, But I still just thought,
as soon as I get this job, I'll jump up

(45:52):
off the couch. I'll be great. I'll get back out
there and this will be behind me. It's not going
to linger. They'll have none of these feelings.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
I never have to think about again, never.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
Have to think about again.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
This is this one sort of you know, rifle shot
solution of a new job will take care of all
these concerns. But when was that going to happen. It
had been years of looking for this job that hadn't materialized,
and so I couldn't let this go on, and definitely

(46:23):
I had to. I had to figure that out.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
And then I.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Think to your point, there was other feelings and needs
beyond that practical solution around whether it's middle age parenting.
You know, it's not going to hurt to talk to
someone figure out all these things so.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Right, and new things could come up as we go
through life together. Yeah, where having someone to talk to
might be really helpful, especially if that's someone has been
talking to you for some time and you don't have
to catch them up, you know, in a in dress
you know well, but you've been talking to them and

(47:01):
they know your story and they know your journey. I
just thought it was, yeah, helpful. What were some of
those early conversations and therapy like for you?

Speaker 1 (47:09):
I just want to point out though without that ultimatum,
I'm not sure I would have done this on my own.
I'm not sure I would have found someone to talk to.
I would have just kept focused on that practical solution.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
And yeah, and who knows how bad things would have
gotten if I just kept searching and searching and searching
and thinking I'd find it. And it doesn't appear.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Well because what I was telling you was you could
be right. Maybe for you, this is completely circumstantial and
related to a specific problem, and once that problem changes,
everything in your life gets better. That's possible. But I
also talk to you about like perspective shifts, helping you
along the way, because the way you were seeing this,

(47:52):
I don't deserve to go do my hobbies because I'm
not working. I'm not valuable as a person because I'm
not working. Those were shifts we needed to make because
like my irrational anxiety, those were irrational things to think,
and the more you think them, the more you open
yourself up to more irrational thoughts and more anxiety and
more depression. And so it was let's get you help

(48:15):
along the way. And maybe when this panacea comes, great,
but maybe it doesn't for a while, so let's get
you help along the way. So what were some of
those early conversations, like for you.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
With a professional, Yeah, yeah. So the first one was
an online service because I didn't necessarily know where to start. Yeah,
you know, so I had seen ads for the online service,
and I just got the app and went through the process,
you know, age, gender, Yeah, what are you concerned with today?
And they, you know, paired me with a professional to

(48:52):
talk to you, and I set up my first.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
Sort of online call.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
And this was a woman. It was a woman, and
I remember, are you not being super impressed after your
first talk?

Speaker 3 (49:04):
Not even close? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
I felt the most disappointing thing is I didn't feel
that she understood me or the problem at hand, or.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Like you're the life you're in yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah,
like your career worry is she didn't get.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Yeah yeah, or you're just the sort of world I
lived in and and the sort of work I did
and the executive level I was at, and you know,
it was not I just didn't feel a connection or
a real understanding. And she signed me some workbook type
stuff to do and just you know, write down how

(49:47):
you're feeling every day, and it just didn't do anything,
and I actually made it soured me on the process
a little bit.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
Yeah, because this pairing was just not right.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
It wasn't right. It was not right, And I remember
talking to my therapist about it and she was like, no, no, no,
John needs a man. He needs a man who's super
compassionate and understands John's world. Yeah, the people John interacts with,
the life he has, the job he has, Like, that's
what he needs.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
I felt like, no matter what I how much detail
I got into with the first therapist, the response, her
responses and her feedback was never going to change. Almost
like I could have been anybody describing a generic issue
and it would have been the same generic sort of treatment.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
Yeah, or conversation.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
I needed it to be very very specific to what
I was going through and personal to how I was feeling.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
And we got you a great therapist.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
Yeah, he's great.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
Who is like I think, but you clearly know better
because I know him as well. Like, such a great
match for you.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
Yeah, I'm not sure there'd be a a better match.
I'm sure there's lots of great therapists and folks wh
will come close.

Speaker 3 (51:04):
But he's he's perfect.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
I think he understands my upbringing, he understands my career
arc and path, he understands where I am in my life.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
He's a father, yeah, so he understands that aspect of it,
and a husband, so he understands that aspect of it.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
And I think he's a very accomplished professional in his field,
which is also very helpful.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Who meets other professionals exactly? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah,
I mean, not to generalize or stereotype, but like, I
don't think what you needed was an older woman coming
in and giving you homework no and tasks no, like
a teacher, like a mom like that. I don't think
that's what you in this dynamic and you're you know.

(51:47):
But the lesson here is to everyone, like, try a
different therapist, yeah, because the differences between the right one
and the wrong one are huge, huge.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
I would venture to guess a lot of folks give
up because of a mis mismatch therapist. And that's a
shame because if you can shop, yeah you yeah, if
you can shop for a therapist that does understand you,
I think you'll find the help you need.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
What's the benefit of therapy most people wouldn't think of.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
I think for me, it's that you can talk about
anything that's kind of bothering you.

Speaker 4 (52:24):
You know.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
For example, this will sound so trivial to folks, but
like I used to be a good golfer and I'm
just not anymore. Right, I'm older, I don't hit the
ball as far, I don't hit it as well. And
it actually made me angry and sort of depressed because
I used to be good at something and I'm no
longer am. I'm sure lots of men my age feel
this way about one thing or another.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
And you know, I talked to my therapist about.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
It and he said, you know, yeah, yeah, because like
it was really bothering me, and you know, maybe this
is part of sort of what the you know, midlife crisis,
sort of like you're just not a young man anymore.
And he said exactly that, like you're just not a
young man anymore. Of course you can't hit the golf
ball as far as you can, like, you know, there's
just this is part of growing older and you just

(53:07):
need to accept it and get through. And I think,
you know, again, it sounds trivial, but like it was
actually bothering me and.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
That you're just getting old.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Yeah, I mean, you know, not not the sort of
thing you want to hear. But in that perspective shift
on why that was happening, it was helpful.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
You're not a bad person, you're not lazy, You're just
getting older.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And these are things that come with age, right,
And you know, I'm sure there's a lot of men
my age who feel pretty shitty about getting old and
the way it impacts what they can do, whether it's
you know, they're jogging speed or how far they can
ride a bike. Like, you know, life changes and you
do get older, and there's lots of things that come

(53:53):
with it. And I think if you having someone to
talk to is helpful. For sure, you know things are changing,
and these things can make you angry, they can make
you depressed, you can feel like less of a man.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
And we have some guy friends in our lives who've
gone through this exact thing that you've gone through. They're
going through it now. It's a struggle for them too.
I feel like the men are not okay, Like what's
going on with guys?

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yeah, I think I'm not sure it's a new thing
because I think back in my dad, my dad had
he thought the world.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
Was against him.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
He thought, you know, it was never his fault that
he wasn't, you know, moving up in his job or
getting a new job he applied for. He thought the
world was against me. It's not my fault, you know,
why does.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
Everyone hate me?

Speaker 1 (54:39):
And struggled with what I would now look back on.
Some sort of depression, definitely some anger issues, alcohol problems,
But I think the alcohol was tied to what he
was going through, right, I mean, self medicating and not
getting help and not getting help. And you know, he
was a marine and not big on help, whether it's

(54:59):
you know, or mental health wise. In fact, you know,
he probably would have lived through his cancer had he
not been too proud to get help with it. But
I think that also applied to sort of, you know,
his mental health. I couldn't a million years picture my
dad talking to someone, right, right, even my mom, you know,
Like I yeah, I couldn't picture him being this tough

(55:21):
guy and talking about things that are bothering him.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
But people in our generation are talking. We are more. Yeah,
I think there's still a stigma among men in our generation,
which is why it's so important that you're just here
talking openly and honestly about this. But like, what do
you say to guys who are struggling? What do they
need most? Is it another guy friend to talk to.

(55:44):
Is it a family that's understanding and supportive. Is it
a good therapist? Is it all of the above, Like,
what's your advice to a guy who just feels like
I don't have a handle on my life. I don't.
I'm not happy and I can't figure out why.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
I think closing yourself off, not being open, not finding
someone to talk to.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
Whether it is buddies in a group chat, you know,
like I have a very beneficial group chat with my
college friends. Yeah that I think it can be funny
as hell, but gets pretty serious at deep at times.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
When you guys need it to.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Yeah, and we know it's a safe space. I mean
it's just the ten or eleven of us, no wives,
no kids, right, and we can talk about anything, right.
I think that's incredibly helpful. If we were sharing a beer,
it would be even better. Yeah, but you know, the
way we're sort of spread out, that helps so people
to talk to, people to share stuff with. If it

(56:43):
can't be your family, if it can't be someone that
lives near you, definitely one hundred percent, find a professional.
It can't be someone you work with that's the like
the worst, you know, the worst idea, right, like.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
Don't bother your pod mate, yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Don't yeah, right, do not bring this up at the
company Christmas party. But I think finding the right people
to talk to and be open with it, because you know,
the more I've talked about it with friends, the more
I realize they're going through similar but also getting similar help.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
Yeah, which I think makes you makes me feel better
about getting help.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Yeah, because you wouldn't know, oh my, like one of
my best buddies also getting help. You only know that
because one of you went first and said it.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
Yeah, I don't, I don't, you know.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
I think there's some stigma and we probably don't talk
about it much, but I think talking has been great
for me, not keeping it inside. But also, you know,
I think trusting those closest to you, like I know
I can trust you to talk to you about it
and be vulnerable when probably we weren't supposed to be.
And you know, I think if you and your partner

(57:51):
are healthy and strong, you should be able to trust
them with things like this. Obviously, I think there's things
you could talk to your therapist about that you can't
talk to your partner, but absolutely, but for the most part,
like closing it off from your partner because you're embarrassed
or because you don't want them to see you that
way or that vulnerable. Yeah, I think that's dangerous and

(58:11):
just going to lead you down a hole you don't want.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
To go to.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Well, I don't want to make you cry it. I
just think you're the best. Thanks, hold it in. I'm
about to say some nice things to hold it in.
Hold it in. I just want to thank you for
being so open and honest about your mental health, because
it really does take a lot of courage. You know,
We've had like big celebrities come on and do this,
but you don't have, you know, the massive platform and

(58:40):
support and fan base and that they have. You're just
a guy. You're the most important guy in my life.
But it's really brave that you come and talk honestly
about this. And I just think you're the best husband, friend, dad,
grill master, oyster, shucker, hunting, buddy, travel companion, bird watch,
sure boat captain, dog dad, and everything else anyone could

(59:04):
ever have.

Speaker 3 (59:05):
Oh, thank you. My pleasure, My pleasure is my.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Pleasure to be all those things. Okay, let's do a
lightning round. Okay, Red Sox Patriots or Bruins.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
Red Sox love them all but Red Sox, Yeah, Live
or Die.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
What's the best movie about hockey?

Speaker 3 (59:39):
Young Blood?

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Which one is that?

Speaker 3 (59:42):
Rob Loo? Patrick Swayzee.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
He's a young American kid eighteen years old, Skinny kid's
gotta go to Canada and fight his way through the
Junior A leagues classic?

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Does it stand up today for.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
A hockey player? Does? Absolutely?

Speaker 5 (59:56):
Right.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
If there's one thing you'd like to watch me you
the first time that I have not, is it watch
a Star Wars, watch a Lord of the Rings, or
watch a college hockey game.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
Well, if we're talking about entertainment value and how funny
it would be, you know probably Star Wars Order Rings. However,
you would drive me nuts trying to watch those with
me and just making up the making up the name
ears like that, and which would the who was that?

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
Why they are they related?

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
Yeah? Exactly, So.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
College hockey would be fun and enjoyable and I can
talk you through it, and you probably wouldn't be too
annoying during.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
That annoying Yeah, I mean, don't disagree with.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
You and respect I do, just so annoying for you
to shop on Lord of the Rings while.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
We're watching it, and that's all I would do with
that the whole time. There's no chance I'd sit there
and be like, you were right, this is amazing. Where's
this been all my life? No, there's no way.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
You'd be like, that's eleven and a half hours of movies,
but I'll never get back.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
I'd be like, this decision that they just made makes
no sense. Forget the Ring, it's not important. Whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
Dragons don't exist.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Well that's a fact. Okay, this is a really tough
question for you, so be careful. What's the best Rhode
Island food stuff? You can only save one? I know
this is the hardest question John's ever probably had to act.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
I mean, my brain's in a pretzel. I don't know
if I can wait.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Pretzel isn't one?

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
No, what is the best.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
You can only save one?

Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
Can?

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
I can I list some for you for our listeners?

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
You can list them?

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Dell's Steamers, I know, coffee milk, hot red Hot Wieners,
Hot Wieners, pizza strips, the best oh Rhode Island Calamari.

(01:01:55):
That's one of my favorites. That's a really good one. Yeah,
uh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
I mean I do not know if I can answer
this question. Wow, I'm gonna say coffee milk.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
I am shocked.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
I can't. I don't know how to choose that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
I like that just mister seafood is not saving a bivalve.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
This is like trying to crazy take my favorite child.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
I know, I know this is hard.

Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
I don't and I don't. I can't even tell you
why I said coffee milk.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
It's just I'm shocked at that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
I just said something to get it out, to get
to get to the next question. Wow, okay, I just
want to move on.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Wow, just get me out of here. Catch a record
tuna on a lure or a record trout on a fly.
Think about the words record tuna record.

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
Yeah right, that's like a twenty two hundred pound tuna.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
Yes, but we'd be millionaires. Okay, catch a record tuna
or a record word trout to No, yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Mean I think I think the world record is twenty
hundred So like twenty two hundred or twenty four hundred
pound is massive and awesome, And.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
That's like in your world famous.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Yeah, exactly, world famous exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
A few people care if you catch a world record
out the world cares if you catch.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Yeah, a place you've never been that you'd love to go,
pretending Jack and I don't have to be with you,
you're not considering, like well, but i'd have to bring
my fans anywhere on the planet you can go alone.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
I want to go fishing in New Zealand. I'd love
to go to New Zealand with y'all.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Yeah, but I want to do We're not instrumental.

Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
I want to do the things I want to do
in New Zealand, right and probably.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
Yeah, Okay, what's your favorite thing about our life?

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
How supportive we are of each other? And I learned
I don't say learned this, but I one of my
best friends told me this, JG. And he said, you know,
if the two of you support each other, even the
hardest things will be easy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
If that ever erodes, then we're in trouble. So that
mutual support, where there's professional, personal, whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Yeah, parents, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Yeah, being supportive of each other is the best thing. Yeah,
And I think it not only helps us conquer tough things,
it also enables us to be successful and to strive
for the nice things that we want to.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Yeah, okay, collect yourself. When is iced coffee season?

Speaker 4 (01:04:44):
Year round.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
Yes, three hundred and sixty five days.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Can I share something you came up with that question?
I did Derek's face right now. Before we started this podcast,
I was like, I want a question to ask at
the end of every episode that is a little offbeat,
but like reflects my interests. You came up with that question,
and it's been the question of the pod.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
Yeah, you can learn a lot from someone and we have. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Yeah, Well that's it for Off the Cup. Thank you
so much for being here.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
In my life but also on this podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
Yeah it's fun.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
I'm a longtime listener, first second time caller now yeah
right right, but no, I thanks for thinking me worthy
to be on it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Honestly, We'll be back October fifteenth with a brand new
season of Off the Cup plus Talking Coffee plus Talking Politics.
We are going to be your one stop shop for
the most important things in life. And I just want
to say, as we wrap up our first season, thank
you to iHeart, Thank you to Will and Charlemagne and
Lauren and Derek for an awesome first season. This is

(01:05:55):
such a great family to be in and I've loved
every second of it. As always, we want to hear
from you, especially as we head into our second season.
We're going to be talking coffee, politics, and mental health.
We want all your thoughts, so please email us at
off the Cup at gmail dot com. That's Off the

(01:06:16):
Cup with two p's at gmail dot com. Tell us
some things you'd like us to cover on the mental health, coffee,
news and politics. What do you want to hear more of?
What topics do you want us to cover? Because I
want to bring you guys into this and I might
even read some of your mail on the air, So

(01:06:37):
don't be shy. Tell us what to do. Off the
Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as part of
the Reason Choice Network. If you want more, check out
the other Reason Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel Hill and
Native Lamb pod For Off the Cup, I'm your host,
se Cup. Editing and sound design by Derek Clements are.

(01:06:58):
Executive producers are me A se Cop, Lauren Hanson, and
Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and review wherever you get your podcasts.
See you next season.