Ricki Lake on talk shows, musicals, and starting over

This week it's the ultimate reinventionist, Ricki Lake! S.E. finds out how Ricki Lake manages to always take big swings in her career — from her out-of-the-blue starring role in Hairspray, to becoming a talk show legend in her 20s, to making a very personal and revealing documentary — and doesn't get pulled under by self doubt and the pressures of a fickle business. Ricki shares some of her personal heartache and why, despite it all, she can still view life optimistically. She talks about the shock of losing her home in the LA wildfires, her return to New York City and why she's living her best life now. And stay tuned for a very musical lightning round!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, can I tell you I'm Ricky, I'm excited to
meet you. I can't believe I'm doing this. I don't
know what I'm going to say. We never know what
is going to come out of my mouth. But that's
the beauty of it.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to off the cup, my anti anxiety antidote. I
think we talk about this a lot on this show,
maybe more than anything else. Career arcs and how to
navigate them. It's all fun on the way up. But
what happens when there's a fork in the road, or
you start wanting to do something else, or people want

(00:33):
you to do something else. That's when the scary voices
can come in, isn't it? And you don't have a
linear career like my dad did. My dad started as
a stockboy in the warehouse of a paper plant when
he was in his teens. He worked his way into
the sales room of that same paper company, then into management,
and then he ended up being the vice president of

(00:54):
a Fortune five hundred company, this same company for forty years.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
That's linear.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
You know where you want to get, You want to
get up, you want to go up as far as
you can. My career is not like that. A lot
of people's careers aren't like that, and there are times
when you have a ton of options and a time
when your options get very limited where you just don't
like it anymore, and that's really hard.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Those moments are hard, I know.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Henry Winkler talked about that on the pod, sort of
the end of happy days and discovering a new chapter
of his life which would end up being producing until
he found.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
His way back to acting.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Mark Duplas talked about that on the pod. He became
a really big deal and then people started pulling him
in odd directions, And I've talked about it being at
a point in my career where I'm a little I'm
a little lost. My next guest has lived like one
hundred different lives, and I'm so interested in how she
navigated all of it while tending to her mental health

(01:51):
and her physical health and dealing with all the things
that can come at a person.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
She's incredibly talented.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
She was probably in your living room in the nineties
like she was mine. She's an award winning actress of
projects like Hairspray and Serial Mom and others. She was
the youngest talk show host at the time to have
her own show, a hit daytime talk show that ran
for eleven years. She's a documentary filmmaker and author, a podcaster,
and like seventeen other things.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
I'm serious. Welcome to Off the Cup, Ricky Lake. Oh
my gosh, it's such an honor. I'm so happy to
be here. I'm so happy that you're here.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
You're so wise and you're so honest, and this is
a great combination.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
I don't feel wise all the time. That's why you're great.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
That's why you are because you've lived a lot of life.
You're honest about the life you've lived, the challenges you've had,
and you talk openly and honestly about them and the
things you've found that have helped you. This is wisdom.
Wisdom is collected after experience. It's not reading a book.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
You have it, thank you, and you offer it to
people on your podcast. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well I'm not doing a podcast anymore. I did it
for two years, so I did it. Yeah, So that
was one thing. But I've been just very sort of
outspoken and transparent my entire career, particularly of late to
have social media, you know, I've just like worn it
all on my sleeve, warts and all, and I've been
through a lot, and yet I always find.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
The good on the other side. I do.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
I don't know how I do that because it but
it just seems to happen over and over again. I'm
definitely one of resilience and an optimist, and I'm curious
and I want to know, Like I don't know what's
going to come tomorrow as far as anything in my life,
and I welcome whatever comes my way.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Okay, I need to get into your headspace, and we're
going to talk about how to do that, because I'm
not in your headspace.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
I don't think I'm an optimist.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
I'm definitely resilient and I get myself to the to
the next place. But it's hard. It's really hard for me. Well,
we'll get into that. But the first thing I have
to ask you about, because I saw your social media recently,
You're in a Lizzo song.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
I oh, yeah, yeah, someone just told me that and
I found it with my husband.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
I know, and actually, well there's I've been mentioned in
a lot of songs, like I looked them up. You did.
Oh yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
I mean, you know when you look at the show,
clearly it's not me personally, it's the show.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
It's like it's it's your name's on the show. You
have a show, I.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Know, but it's like what that show represented and who
I was at that time, So I get it. It
was definitely a phenomenon of that decade and then some
and I have reverence for it in the way that
I never did when I did the show. You know,
it's very cool to be in my fifties and to
still feel somewhat relevant with the young people.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
You know, relevant like you're being reintroduced to young people
through all of these pop culture songs and references.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
It's so cool.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
It's really cool. No, I definitely am like stoked. I
don't know what the reference meant.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Actually, I listened to it to and I don't I
don't mean though. And then there was another song last year.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
I'm gonna blank on who the singer was, but like
Nicki Mi NAUJ mean like its offspring a lot of them.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
I mean, there's a bunch. There's some Hole in the
Head by Sugababes, and there's an Israeli singer named Neda.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
She has a song called Ricky Lake What Meghanie Sallion
that's the one and what's the name of that song?
It's money, money good.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
You love that song?

Speaker 2 (05:18):
Actually spring pretty for a white guy.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
The go on on, it's crazy. That's amazing though, I mean, no.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
You know what's amazing when you get to be a
question on Jeopardy, that's amazing.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
Sure, I've got a passion on Jeopardy.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
I've also was on Jeopardy Puzzle you were on the right,
I saw you.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yes, did you not win? Well? I did? Thanks for
asking them. But that is.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
That feels like that feels for me that was the top,
Like I'm on Jeopardy. I'm I'm a clue in Jeopardy
Like that's.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
That's yeah, No, And all of it is like, oh,
pinch me moments because I'm a kid that wanted to
be famous.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Okay, let's go there, because I like to start with
what were you like as a kid, And how'd you
get this bug? Okay?

Speaker 1 (06:04):
So I've always had it. So I'm I'm fifty six
years old and I grew up watching you know. I
love Lucy's Shirley Temple. I saw Annie on Broadway side
a grandma that would take me to theater in the
ballet and the opera here in New York a lot
and that, like she died when I was nine, but
she sort of just showed me culture and arts.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
And I saw Annie when I.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Was like about seven years old the original cast with
Andrew mccartell. Sarah Tisca Parker was the understudy, and I
met her backstage right, Okay, she came up to me
actually and like said, hey, I'm her understudy.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
Do you want my autograph too? And I was like,
uh huh uh huh amazing.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
And I don't tell you like Aleen Quinn in the
movie version was your It was, I mean life changing
for me. I thought when I turned five, my hair
was going to turn red and curly because you look
like her and curly I see it. Well, that's going
to happen to me. It was very important to me.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Annie. Yeah, me too. I did Were you a singer?
Did you? I thought I was okay and a dancer?

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Okay, okay, Well yeah, so I you know, I got
the bug and wanting to be I wanted all eyes on,
I wanted applause. I wanted to win over a crowd
kind of thing. I didn't know what it meant to
actually be famous. And lucky for me, you know. John
Waters discovered me when I was eighteen years old. I
wasn't a freshman at Ithaca College and I was finishing
up my first year, a miserable year as a musical

(07:15):
theater major, where.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
I didn't get cast in anything.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
I was told by my advisor that I wasn't talented,
that I wouldn't make it, that I should come up
with another like a turn, a U turn or whatever, right,
a pivot, and then John I just, I mean, I
don't know if it's like divine literally pun intended, divine,
divine intervention, like the fact that I was supposed to
be there on that day, not far from.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
This this this way. Where did he discover you?

Speaker 1 (07:38):
It was in midtown at a casting director's office, and
it was at an open open call. I had heard
about it and I went and met him on the
first audition.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
Didn't know who John Waters was. I didn't know anything.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
I was super green, never been around openly gay people.
I was just very sheltered at that age. And it's
either saying it's a John Waters movie and it was
a factirl who could dance, and I just was like
definitely fat, definitely I fit the mold, and I can
kind of I can at least at least fake dancing.
And you know, I was that I was I still

(08:10):
am that character, right I you know, and I think
that has been such in now a gift is like
there's there's no words, honestly, because it opened every door
for me. He managed to sort of mentor me in
a way that I've stayed really pretty grounded though through
the years and normal, very normal, and and hair's by
the character. You know that that that character that just
lives on and on and on is such like just

(08:32):
such a a touchstone for so many people. And so yeah,
so it's it's it's been such an amazing thing to
start my career there and only build on it. Like
I love that I didn't peek at eighteen, you.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
Know, and I still feel like I, well, that's not true.
I do feel like I've peaked.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
I do feel at peaked I have and everything else
is gravy like like I I love.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Like the reinventions that I've had.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
I've I thrived myself on just trying new things, proving
myself to myself and to others that I can like
make a documentary that's going to actually kind of change
the world.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
You know, Yes I did that, Yes, you know.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
And yeah, so I'm just I've loved every aspect of
my career. I'm lucky that I've made made a lot
of money doing the talk show back in the day
that I don't have to do anything at this point
to put food on the table.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
And yeah, I love my life.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
I love every all the good and all the trauma
and and you know, the hardship, because it's really I've
evolved into a better version of myself through that.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Listen, I don't we don't know each other, but I
can see that. I can see this. I can see
you're happy and healthy. I can see it in your face.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
You look like a happy, healthy person. Thank you. I
mean it's obvious. And my aura ring says, so, well,
then it's science back. My sleep is great.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, no, and it's it's like I literally I lost
my house and everything in it six months ago, like
only six months ago in the Palisades five in Malibu,
and that trauma, Like I cannot believe that I'm in
such a happy place.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, just six months later.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Do you think that that's because you had already done
some work on yourself to get yourself to a place
where you could survive this and it wouldn't upend your
entire life or do you think you kind of figured
it out on the fly.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
I don't know. I mean, it's actually not my first
fire that I know. So I had another house fire
in twenty ten. Yeah, this one was like that was
a rental. Yeah, that was a rental that I actually
actually accidentally set the fire.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
I mean it wasn't it wasn't negligent. I didn't do
anything wrong.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
It was just a device I was using blew up
and exploded anyway.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yes, so this was not my first fire.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
But I think having true partnership, having like my circumstances
of losing your house is like the worst thing ever.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
But I didn't have small children.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
If I had small children and I was you know,
like that would be a whole different thing.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
If you know, I didn't have a partner.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
I have like this amazing husband who we did this
together and got through it, you know, so, and I had,
like I like the things that that I made it
easier for made it made it much easier. But it's
still it's still it's still I can't believe my house
that was twelve miles from the initial start of the
Palisades Fire.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
It came twelve miles through the densely populated village of Palisa,
the Palisades. I mean, I just still can't believe that
is a reality. Yeah, it's so crazy.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
I can't imagine it either. And it's I was gonna
say it's funny. It's not funny, but when you it's
interesting when you look back at the shit you survive
and you're like, how am I still standing? And I'm
not just still standing, I'm doing great, and like I'm
stronger than I may have thought. And I know when
I was at my worst with my mental health struggles

(11:43):
and my anxiety, I was always trying to predict the
awful thing because if I could predict it, maybe it
wouldn't happen.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
That's irrational.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
But also if I could predict it, at least I
wouldn't be surprised, and I wouldn't get that physical, you know,
physiological surprise reaction that is so traumatizing. Yeah, but then
the thing happens. Yeah, nothing prepares you, no, all the
wheels you spin in your head, nothing prepares you no.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
With the fire, I mean, I was in my closet,
like when it was we stayed so our whole story
that a lot of people have been following that we
stayed to fight the fire because we had equipment that
we had been trained to use. We had least so
that we could use our pool water to ride fire
hoses and spread it out around and that, you know,
the fire we were told would come over and if
it came over her house, it would be half an
hour and then you put the embers out when you know,
when the classes right. This was a different kind of fire,

(12:29):
and so we ended up leaving late. We left eight hour,
eight o'clock at night, so it started ten thirty in
the morning. We were out of there by eight o'clock
at night, and we didn't pack because we were planning
to stay right and I could have anyway. I just
kicked myself with the things I didn't get out of
that house. And well, my hairspray script that was signed
by every actor in the cast, my dress, you know,

(12:51):
like all the mementos and my career and stuff.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
That's one thing.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
But then my photo albums, my grandparents photo albums, my
kids photo albums, my you know, just my juice, like
my not now my fine Julia I did grab my
fine jewelry. But my my, my, all my other things,
all this stuff, my my husband who passed away. The
list goes on and on. If I go down there,
I go kind of dark, you know. But we're lucky,

(13:15):
we are, you know, well everything in the milder, Yes, exactly. Yeah,
I got my dog and my husband and your dog
is Dolly.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
That's wild. So it's mine crazy. But yeah, we discussed this.
But but my mine is Dolly Parton.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yes, mine, the Dolly Mama. But but Dolly Parton. I mean,
come on, it's a great name regards.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
It's amazing. Whenever you got there. What kind of dog
is it? She's a black lab? Black lab? Okay, mine's
a little white rescue monster.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
My favorite thing to do in New York City, besides
seeing my son's is to go to Central Park before
nine o'clock for the off leash hours.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
It is. It is heaven. If I can't be in Malibu,
I'm happy to be there. I'm a little mad at
my dog today. Uh oh uh oh, I told earlier,
but you're not over it. I'm not over it. My
dog brought me a mouse today in my bedroom. I
believe you said rat It was a mouse.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
It was tiny, and this was bad because I didn't
know she had brought it to me.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
I was in my bedroom. She put it at the
foot of the bed. I didn't know it was there.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
I'm writing on the bed, like I'm on my computer
on the bed. I step off the bed and my foot,
my barefoot, Ricky steps on this little mouse.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
It's between my toes. It's squishy.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Honestly, I don't know why you didn't cancel. I would
have been totally fine if you had to cancel on
me because of that.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
I know, I know.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
I thought I'll have to burn my foot off, Like
how do I how do I go on with this knowledge?
Like this is in my brain now that this happened, Doc,
and he'll go.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
Dolly needs Dolly.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
Dolly needs to learn a lesson about what's inside behavior
and outside.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
I want to go back to Hairspray and then the
talk show.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Where do you get And maybe you don't, but the
confidence at such a young age to take on this
role in Hairspray and then take on this role on
your eponymous talk show. You're so young, and sometimes that
inoculates you from it.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
The things that we know now that we would worry about.
You didn't know to worry.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
I was younger than both my children are now are now. Yes,
my youngest is twenty four. He just turned twenty four.
I got the job when I was twenty.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
Three, and I get wild. How did that happen?

Speaker 1 (15:36):
So I was a very frequent guest on David Letterman
back in the day, so as me and sort of
Sandra Bernhard, you know at the time. And so when
guests would fall out, they would bring me in because
for some reason he liked me.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
I was really a good talker.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
I was, I don't know what it was about me,
but a producer that was looking to cast for a
younger talk show. Garthan Seer is the brilliant is the
brilliant mind behind my show. He came up with the concept.
He was working with Barry Diller and you know, at
NBC whatever. He came up with the concept of you know,
after looking at the demos of talk shows of that time,
Phil Donahue, Oprah Sally, they all skewed over the age

(16:09):
of fifty. So he wanted to tap into the eighty nine,
eighteen to thirty four, eighteen to forty nine. Of course,
I'm speaking like my NAPPI ling lingo, and so I
was one of one hundred women that they auditioned or
came in to meet and it was like literally I
went in.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
It was on the Fox lot. So I thought I
was not working at that time. I was.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
My phone was not ringing, and I went on. Someone
called me again. It's like on a whim. Just called
me and told me to come in. I was like,
all right, it's on the Fox lot. It has to
be maybe legit. And I flirted with three handsome gay men.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
And I wore a hat. I wore a.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
Hat, and I was, you know, just like whatever, whatever.
I had that quality that they were looking for, and
they picked me to do the pilot and I was
like at the time, I needed the money so badly.
I was like, I'll do it for five thousand dollars,
you know. And then and then my agent stepped in and.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Kind of made a deal.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
But it was it was unbelievable because like, who am
I How presumptuous to think I could be in that
role of having this platform with all you know, and
I mean I had no sense of who I was
back then.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
But you stepped into it. It'll be different from your
point of view. From my point of view an audience member,
a young girl, We're only ten years apart. I think
for a lot of us, you were like an older sister.
We were watching you stepped into it very naturally. On
our side of it.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
It was oh, totally, totally. And to answer your question
about how I got up the courage.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
It's like, it's like this, it's naivete.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
You know, you don't know no.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
And it's like if they think they can that I
can do this, you believe them.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
I can do it.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
If John Waters picked me to be the girl that
gets the guy, I can do it. I had never
had sex when I did hairspray, or had been the
object really of any boys at that point, and so
I'm like having.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
To be the girl that gets the guy from the
hot little number. I'm like, okay.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
And it's like a mind trick almost that I would
talk to me kind of like you with your mental
health and like like foreseeing the worst so.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
That it doesn't put you in a panic attack.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
I think I do kind of the same thing where
it's like I all right, he thinks I'm this girl
Tracy Turnlet Okay. I am like I can just will it.
And I did that with the talk show. In the beginning,
I would channel Oprah like I honestly didn't know.

Speaker 3 (18:11):
I was a big fan of her friend R. Yeah.
I was just like, what would Oprah say? What would
Oprah do?

Speaker 1 (18:15):
And and then I sort of found my sea legs
and I just was really a good listener and I
really am curious about people, and I love you know,
relationship stuff, and I and then I you know, I
was really good at like the timing and being able
to pull out the macarry yeah, and and keep the conflict,
like keep the conflict, stop it, take commercial break because
I didn't wear an EFV.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
That's one of the things I am most proud of.
So you're out there on your own, on my own,
I entirely. And they wanted me to.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
They wanted control of me, and I didn't want to
be distracted by them feeding me stuff in the control room.
I wanted to be I know the story I'm telling,
I know you know, and I know, yeah, so I refuse.
And it was a little bit of a thing with
Garth and me for a few years and I.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
Was like, no, it's working like like this. Yeah. So
it was all me.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
But yet, like I said, I became a better and
better in meet the older I got, the more life
experience I had.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
When you were in the height of the Ricky Lake Show,
did you think I want to do this forever? No?

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Okay, no, When did it start creeping in that you
wanted to try something else?

Speaker 1 (19:18):
It wasn't that. It was actually nine to eleven that
that ended. I mean, my contract was coming to an end.
I had, like I renegotiated a couple of times, and
overall I did an eleven year run. And at the
year nine, it looked like it was just going to
go one more year. And nine to eleven happened. And
I watched it like I was downtown in my West
Village apartment. I've just had my home birth water birth

(19:40):
two months before, so in this like sacred space where
I felt my most powerful, my most like I am
a goddess warrior, I can do anything. And two months later,
you know, with my four year old and my two
month old, I watched the plane fly down the Hudson
and so that tripped me into like I didn't think
I was going to I didn't think we were going
to live. I thought it was end of the world,

(20:00):
which we've all probably thought of, and I made some
quick decisions in that moment. I had an epiphany that
I'm changing things like I am literally like and so
I wanted to get out of my show. I wanted
to get out of my marriage, and I wanted to
move out of New York.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
That's a lot at once. It was a lot, and
it took a while.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
It took like things had to happen, and I had
to finish my contract with the show.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
But that's why.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
So it was after nine to eleven and thinking I
was going to that was the end. I really wanted
to soul search about where I could be even more
impactful because the show was very impactful in a lot
of ways for a lot of people, but it wasn't
really my voice. I was I was, I mean, it
was it was me on that show, but I wasn't producing,
I wasn't picking the topics, I wasn't booking the show.

(20:41):
So I wanted to do something that was more personal
that something I was super passionate about. And I was
really passionate about my birth experiences and midwif free care
and you know, C section rates and why you know,
so I said, that's so, that's the avenue I went.
I made the Business of being Born after that.

Speaker 3 (20:57):
How scary was that it wasn't because I didn't know
what I was getting myself into. Lookay from walking away from.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
The show, like okay, so I am not someone that
needs to have Oprah money or a plane or I
mean that would be nice, right, I am not.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
Driven by your face sometimes where no, I.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
Don't care about being relevant like I I just yeah,
I was. I was done, and I felt really bad
because there was a lot of crew and staff like
their jobs were affected by it. But I finished my
contract and I kind of it wasn't just me like
saying I quit, it was it kind of it didn't
happen again because I was moving to LA and it
just kind of went away. And I feel very complete,

(21:38):
and I wouldn't have been able to reinvent and do
the next thing I did, which the Business of being
Born is by far the thing I'm.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
Most proud of of my entire personally, by far, by far.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
And it was my own money, and it was you know,
and I didn't expect it to have the impact that
I mean, I was hoping it was going to be
impactful because it was something I.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Really cared it was. I mean it was it still is.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Like I get stopped at least a couple times a
week of women just like are in tears of how
that movie held wound and yeah, just led them to
a new career, led them to have their baby on
their own turn, whatever, whatever it is. It's like, Wow,
this is where I wanted to leave my mark, you know,
more than anything.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Did you have agents or managers saying, listen, once you
step out of the limelight, once you step out of
daytime talk or.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
It's going to be really hard to get back in. No,
because it wasn't hard to go back in.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
I went back and did another show because so after
I did the Business of Being More and I saw
the ripple effect of that and the respect I got
from that and the critical acclaim of that film, and
it was just so personal and it was like I said,
it was all my own money.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
It took four years to make, No one would help
us make it.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
My brilliant director Abby Epstein and I exposed ourselves.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
I mean, she she has her baby in the you know,
it was so personal to see like the positives come
out of.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
It at first, they attacked us. The AMA came after us,
a COG came after me. They targeted me in a
resolution that I that like home birth is the latest
cause to leb you know whatever, Ricky Lake has blood
on her hand. I mean, they were saying really crazy,
crazy thing got but I was.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
I lost my train of thought. I lost my train
of thought, which but it was easy.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Because I'm in perimenopause. I still get my period. But
I am and I'm fifty six. But I I the brain.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
Fog, the brain fog and the cannabis and the cannabis.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
I have to say, cannabis may be contributing a little
bit to my you know, flighty.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Train of thought. I got it. I got it.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
So you were you could because of the impact of
that film, you were able to step back into TV.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, so I went back to do a second talk show,
and that, you know, I wanted to do more of
a Phil Donna Who, even though I can't claim to
be anywhere near as smart as Phil Donna Who, but
that was the kind of show the vibe I wanted
to do. It's more like elevated content, not dumbing down
the audience. I want to have real conversations about things
like that people feel good, like like we'll learn something
from or be you know. So it's just we were

(23:55):
not on the same The company wasn't with me on that.
And I did win the Emmy. Yes, I was canceled.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
That was so crazy because it was it was.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
It was ridiculous because I didn't even submit myself, like
I didn't even because the show was canceled, like Steve
Harvey was the darling of that year, right, and all
these other people had hit shows, and so I was nominated.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
I was like, oh, and I had a trip to
a za.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
I was going with my my then husband, my second husband, Christian,
to a Visa, which is where we like to go
all summer. And my friend is like, you're you're gonna win,
and I'm like, I am not gonna wait, I'm.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
Not canceling my trip. I'm going on vacation.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Sure enough, in the morning, my phone was blowing up
in a Visa and.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
I was like, I won, I won? What? Oh? I
forgot all about it. That's amazing. But it was. Yeah,
it was awesome.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
So the talk the daytime talk space was very crowded
in the nineties.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
You know, Jenny Jones and Montel. They were literally like
over one hundred, two hundreds.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
It seemed like everyone had one. Yeah, And since then,
I mean, it feels like America kind of turned on
on tabloid talk a little bit. But I mean it
still wants that that interaction. But a lot of people
since then have tried it and failed. A lot of
like very talented you know, my colleague Anderson Cooper, Katie Couric,

(25:09):
Chris Jenner, Bethany. You know, you can name a lot
of people who have a lot of fans and a
lot of promise and potential tried it and failed.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
What did you have that they don't.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
We were the first to do something that hadn't been
done before, So I was the youngest, and our it
was it was it was not a stick shick is
not the right word.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
It was gimmick, our thing, our wheels and angle.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yes, my words, I got you awful, I honestly, I
really really. That's the only side effect of perimanopopause that
bothers me is like my my words sometimes don't come together.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
But but for for our show.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Like we took our show, every topic was taken from
the younger person's perspective.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
Right right, So, Oprah, would you have a clear mission?
That was it.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
We wanted to give the marginalized, the young, the unrepresented.
We wanted to give them, you know, a voice and
a platform for them to be heard. And I, you know,
I treated everyone with respect. We had a lot of fun.
It was a feel good show. It was not like
a gotcha show. It wasn't you know. And I really
I really liked Jerry Springer as a part, Like he
was a really nice man. They're you know, they're all

(26:13):
so everyone had their own sort of lane.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Right.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
We were doing something that hadn't been done before. And
I think because of my background with John Waters, because
I was the fat girl who, you know, the darling,
I think people related to me.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
They trusted me, they were rooting for me.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
They know I'm like an ally and so people would
opened up to me and and it was it was
great And I'm honored that I was like well received
in that role and that that led That was like
the foundation for me to put out the provocative, you
know content that I've created since.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
And in twenty ten, you Phil Donahue, Sally Jesse, Geraldo
and Montel All go on, Oprah, Yes, I mean, it's
a Mount Rushmore plus what was that like?

Speaker 3 (26:58):
It was? It was? It was complet completely surreal. I
can't even imagine.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
And I had just fallen in love with my new partner, Christian,
so I had just like we had just got I
just had this house fire, his first house fire in
twenty ten. And I did Oprah like in October, and
they did the b roll at my house. I was
living in bretwe at the time, and they did this
be roll and they're talking about my new relationship and
I'm like, oh, I don't.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
Know, it's very new.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
I'll I will find out if I'm still if I'm
still with him when I come on the show. And
then I went to the show a couple weeks later
or whatever, and I said, yes, I'm in love with
him on the show, like he heard me say I'm
in love with him on Oprah.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
But anyway, it was like it was amazing.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
It was to hang out like like off off camera
with Phil Donahue and Oprah. And and she had a
bunch of like barbecue I remember in the back and
I have a picture of her me behind her smiling
and she's like eating a rib.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Oh my gosh, but to be canonized, it was I
know that way.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
I know, I know, it's like my life is like
a movie.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
It is literally like Tracy Turnblad, like she becomes famous.
I still feel like I'm that girl, and I can't
believe like I'm.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
In the room, you know, amazing. When something ends that's
important to you, maybe.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
The birthing film or the talk show or a movie project,
do you feel like, Okay, I'm gonna relax, I'm going
to take a break, or are you thinking about what's next?

Speaker 3 (28:19):
What's the next thing and how do I get there?

Speaker 1 (28:21):
I am never really thinking about talk to me about
this because this is not my personality at all.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
Really. Now I am well, maybe I'm lazy. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
I like I said before, I feel very much complete
with what I've done in the world, Like I've made
enough money, i have won different awards.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
I've been had an impasse, I've been they had a
very obvious impact in a number of arenas.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yes, and you know, I mean, I think so much
of my life is like spent having to recover from
some kind of trauma, whether it was like Christian, my
partner who passed in twenty seventeen, of mental illness and suicide. Yes,
I feel like so much of that time. I have
to take this time to kind of find myself again
and heal. And that was the whole thing of itself.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Now with this.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Fire, it's like finding a new place to live and
making that a home and so and I'm really content
with just really hanging out with my beautiful partner getting high,
you know, I like, I mean, it's like the simple life.
I've raised my kids like I've i and there's still

(29:24):
my kids, but I like they're not a day to
day driving them to school and whatever. It's really like
me time and I love it, like I love I
love it. I love that I'm not on the air anymore.
Like I love that I don't have to deal with
what's going on the climate that we're living in.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
It is, it is really, it really affects me.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
And I'm I'm but I'm not like, I'm just very
like I'm quiet about my opinions. I don't want to
alienate anybody. Yeah, I mean, I'm also open and I'm
right like going to hide, but I'm just grateful that
like my heyday on TV was going to it's not
to Yeah, it was it was twenty years ago.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
It's awful.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, it's I know, I know, I feel for you.
I was like, I I'm so grateful, grateful.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, so I'm not retired.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
I am not retired, but I'm also not like I'm
not thinking about where's the next project?

Speaker 3 (30:14):
When am I going to be back? Yeah? Well that's
a great place to be in.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
You know.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
I'm I'm writing a book now on my mental health,
as my listeners know, and it's it's really hard not
not being vulnerable because I've never promised I'm perfect. That
part's easy for me. The part that's hard is telling
a story. I don't tell stories about myself. I tell
stories about other people. It's what I have done for
twenty years, you know, talking exposing myself and writing about myself.

(30:55):
It's a very personal, obviously, but very I don't know,
it's a really intense propories.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
It's really scary. And I imagine, you know, when you're
on your.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Talk show talking to other people about their stories and
you're pulling those stories out right, That's what we're good at.

Speaker 3 (31:13):
That's what we do. When you go to do the.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Birthing film and it's all, I mean, all of you right,
you're out.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
There, yeah, naked giving birth? Right?

Speaker 2 (31:24):
How hard was that to be? Like, Okay, I'm putting
this out there now, it's going to be out there forever.
If this is more of me than I was ever
comfortable sharing and people now have access to me in
a way that they maybe didn't before. Like, how did
you wrap your mind around that?

Speaker 1 (31:39):
I mean, I was again, I was compartmentalized because part
of me is like, ugh, you know, I had a
breast reduction, so I have scars on my breasts and
oh I'm two hundred pounds and oh I'm in my
bathteb and I don't have the good lighting.

Speaker 3 (31:51):
But like that's beautiful. That's really powerful.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
That is like I am so proud of that moment,
you know when I my midwife said it's on film
and then movie you know, reach out and pulled out Ricky,
reach out and pull pull down your pull out your baby.
I'm like, I I mean yeah, and quite frankly, that's
the footage I have because basically stuff was lost in
the fire, like a lot of footage of that. So
anyway to answer your question, I mean it's a mix thing.

(32:16):
Like part of me is like a little you know,
embarrassed that I don't look, you know, a certain way,
and then part of me is like, I own it.
And you know, I just came out about that I
had a necklift.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
I just told the world I have nothing to hide,
I really know.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
And you also talked about hair loss, and I feel
like to a lot of people that sounds trivial.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
It is not. It was deeply, deeply I had health
issues with that you.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Talked about that, you were open about getting depressed and
almost feeling suicidal. Absolutely well, explain that a little bit
for people who'd think, but hair loss, who cares?

Speaker 1 (32:49):
It's you know, it's so hard to tap into the
pain that I was in now that I'm sort of
on the other side because it's been many years. It
was six years ago, and at that time it had
been an issue throughout my life, like since I was
twenty six. Twenty six, I made a movie called Missus
Winterbourne and I went on a crash diet. The producers
put me on a diet and I lost a lot
of weight very short period of time by you know,

(33:10):
starving myself for the most part, and my hair shed
Three months after I changed my diet and I was
on TV doing my show and I was having to
do It's the year I cut my hair super super short, right,
So I think it was like season four, maybe season three.
I went forward to me more in Ghost, but I
didn't achieve that it was it was so far from
her haircut and that, but I was I was really

(33:31):
freaked out because I was having to be on TV,
having to have my hair messed with your a young
woman and I was a young woman, and being able
to see your scalp in the you know, in the
reflect in the light, in the mirror.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
It was so upsetting and shameful, and I didn't know
what to do.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
So as the years went on, and I would use
extensions and I had to color my hair every three weeks,
and because I had gray hair from the time, I
was in my early thirties, and so I was in
this routine and I was doing more and more damage
to my scalp, to my hair. And it was in
twenty we were coming up on twenty twenty, so it
was right before the pandemic, right, And I went away
with a boyfriend to Phoenix, Arizona, and I went in
a hudder balloon. I remember it was a few days

(34:08):
I just made the decision I'm going to shave my
head on the New Year's Day, like New Year's Eve,
day before the New decade, this whole thing of like
New Year, New decade.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
And I just wanted to be done with these extensions
and hair piece that I was wearing. I was wearing
this very unfortunate but very helpful apparatus on my head
for many years. So it's hard to describe. But it's
like they call it something and I can't think of
the name. Of course, I can't think of that.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
What's the point of it?

Speaker 1 (34:34):
The point of this is it basically so extensions would
pull your hair out from underneath and so my weak
hair would fall more from it. It would sit on
the top of my head, so it had a fake
sort of hairline apart and fake bangs, and it was
attached to my head from the top so it didn't pull,
but yet I didn't see the top.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
It was like a wig, but not but less than
a wig. Anyway, I had been I was done with it.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
I had been living in London doing a show, and
I brought had to bring my hairdresser with me because
I didn't want anyone touching my hair. I was super
neurotic about it and insecure cut too.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
I was like, I'm going to just is this too
long a story? I feel like it was. It brings
me back.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
And I said, I made the decision I am going
to do this and I'm going to be public about
it because if I just shaved my head, people would
either think A. I had cancer. B I was mentally ill.
Like like moment, I just was like, look, I've been
honest and transparent about everything in my life. I'm going
to tell this story for myself to be set free.

(35:31):
It really wasn't to help other people. I wish I
could say I was like altruistic and that I really
was coming from.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
A place of need.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Wanted to let it go, set free, and so I
documented it because I'm like a film you know.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
I wanted to capture.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
This moment for me, and so I had my friend
photograph and videotape, and then I had my dearest friends
with me, and.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
It was it was like a ritual.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
It was like a yeah, it was like a ceremony,
and it was one of the most badass things I've
ever done in my life. It was super amazing and
I was set free and I turned out I look
really good with a shaved head and you don't know
it until you do it, until you do it.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
And yeah, and then I grew back.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
I partnered with a hair company that helped me with
my hair that that helped my scalp and my hair
be is healthy. I still use it to this day. Yeah,
or clinic and I still use it. I'm not paid
by them now, and I but it works. If it doesn't,
you know, if it's not broken, don't fix it.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
And so I'm just I do my protocol.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
But I'm really I'm really proud of like being able
to sort of overcome that dark my secret, you know,
and to be able to tell and the fact that
it helps so many people.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
In the process has been icing on the cake.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Well, secrets are Secrets are a poison. Yeah, Secrets make
you sick, is what people say. And that's always why
why I when I had like a nervous breakdown around
forty forty one or something, maybe forty two, I don't know,
so pre pandemic, pre pandemic but no, no, it was
in the midst of the pandemic. But it wasn't COVID

(36:58):
related I'm sure COVID didn't help, but I just did
a nervous breakdown and it was like twenty years of
being anxious. I just ohdeed on it and my body
was like, you cannot keep doing what you're doing. And
I had to be honest about it right away because
I was debilitated.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Wait, so did you like go to a hospital and
get help or like what was your Yeah? I got
immediate help.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
I got medication, I got several therapists. It was so
bad I needed help right away. That was the blessing
in it, that it was so bad. There was no
maybe I can sleep it off, maybe I can get
myself out of it. I knew I couldn't, and so
I started embarking on this mental health journey.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
But I had to be I wanted to be honest.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
I had been covering women like Naomi Osaka and Simone
Biles and Megan Markle who had been coming out and
talking honestly about their mental health. I'd been covering them
and applauding their bravery. And here in this moment was
I going to hide mine?

Speaker 3 (37:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (38:00):
So I felt I had to because I have to
keep doing my job, and this is really the only
thing I can make sense of right now is the
way my head is feeling. And so I did it,
and it was I put the baggage down immediately. I
didn't want to carry around secrets while I tried to
be myself in my job. I just that was going

(38:20):
to add to the weight of what I was already
going through. And so I always encourage people when they're
going through tell as many people as you can.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
Yeah, because it really it's for you.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, absolutely, and if it ends up helping people, terrific,
but like initially, get it off you and get this
remove the secret part as secretcy because it really can
weigh you down.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
I can add to that I was molested as a
little girl and which caused me to be fat, which
caused me to get hairspray, so the end, you know.
But my point is that I didn't tell a soul.
Really it happened a bunch of times, I don't know
how often, But then I told my parents and it
was never discussed again. I never got therapy, nothing, and
I didn't talk about it until I was twenty one
years of age and I told a new boyfriend and

(39:02):
I just told him and shared and it was like this, like,
oh my god, like I've been set again like that.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
Yes, and then and then once you open that gate,
you hear all the other people that have gone through
the same experience and you don't feel so weird. I
felt like I was the only person that that happened to.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
And so anyway, I'm all for being open and honest,
you know, and yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
For so many reasons. Yes, but my god, you've been.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Through so much, as you just mentioned, molestation, the hins
and loads of your.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
I'm beginning of the hits. I mean, these are this is.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
A lot, the buyers, divorces, and I'm still like the
luckiest person.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
I'm the luckiest. How are you an optimist? I because
look at my life. My life is extraordinary.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
I mean I've gotten to do it all. And I
really like, like who I am.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
I like like the people that I haven't, I like
the children I created, I like. I mean, I just
I feel very strongly that when I die, whenever that is,
people are gonna say she lived, man, because I've.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Done so much and there's not I mean, there's a lot,
Like I have a bucket list, I have you know, Like,
I mean, I have things I want to do that
I haven't done yet.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
But I also desperately no, none of it. None of it.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
I mean, and you know this, this new adventure moving
back to New York is definitely one that wasn't on
my Bingo card for this year. I did not expect
to be to lose my house.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
And to have to pivot.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
But we both My husband who has never spent more
he had never spent more than a week in New
York City before, and he is thriving. He's an ex Mormon,
a San Diego beach guy, a lawyer, and he's just
embraced like this new lifestyle. This like like I mean,
it's it's Our lifestyle is so different because in Maliburn,

(40:49):
we never left our house. You know, we would stay
at the beach, we'd go hiking every day. We were
very and people come to.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Us to our house.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
But we had a very like home bound situation that
we love. We had two rocking chairs at the end
of our deck that looked out at the beach, surfer
Wighter's Beach, and we're like, this.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Is where we get to grow old.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Like we're going to build a guest house, so we
have a nurse, the elder care that gets to live
here and take care of us, so we get to
die on this land like that.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
Had it all planned.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
We talked about it a lot, and then when it's
all ripped away and it's like, okay, where do we
want it?

Speaker 3 (41:19):
We can go anywhere. We really can go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
And I said, let's go back to New York, which
is so ironic because I left New York after nine eleven,
like again, right, fight or flight.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Like I just fleet.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
So here I am twenty one years later coming back
and moving not far from where I left, you know,
very close, and it's so different.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Now the city has changed. Right, Oh my gosh, the
Highland didn't exist, right, you know, little island in the
West Side high that's my area, the West Side Highway.
It is.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
It is really special to be back, and I'm so anyway,
so we are this is this is actually an amazing
time for us, even though the world feels like it's
collapsing and imploading everywhere you turn.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
Our little our family, our children are all healthy, and
we're really we're the happiest people in our mid fifties
you've ever met. I love that. So this is the
final question before a lightning round.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
What's harder starting over or letting go of the past?

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Oh, my goodness, letting go, i'd say, because I mean,
I'm someone that I've done plant medicine and ayahuasca many
many times. And my always, my my intention is always
letting go. And it can be whatever, letting go of resentment,
letting go of you know, whatever is or yeah, and

(42:36):
I am constantly that is a lesson. I'm constantly having
to revisit and learn. Yeah, letting go is hard. Yeah,
and it's it's it's And I had to let go
of my my my husband who passed away. And actually Ayahuasca,
my mother Ayahuasca told me in a journey I was
in go ahead that and this is before he passed away,
that I had to let him go, like it was
the one before he passed away. Now again, I don't

(42:58):
know if you I don't know if you're with that medicine,
you are. I had done it probably eight times before
I had this one time that I did it Innabiza
and under a white dome with about eighty people, eighty
strangers basically all dressed in white, and we had this
Brazilian shaman and it was this beautiful ceremony, and at
one point I left the dome and I went outside
and I was looking up.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
It's I can get really, I can go deep.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
I don't know anyway, it reminded me so when Okay, So,
when I eventually told my parents about the male station,
I was in this position looking up, like out at
my driveway, looking at them confront that gut the man,
and so I was like like hiding and peeking under
this chair.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
With just my eyes.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
And so it was sort of in the same position
that night with Mother Ayahuasca talking to me and telling me,
you have to let him go. And I it sounds
so crazy to you people that are listening, but I'm
telling you, yes, I had this experience and I was
having this shot this match back and forth.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
I said, I'm not letting him go. I'm not letting go.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
You have to let him go. You have and that's
I was horrified. When I came out of that journey.
I didn't tell him right away what happened, and ultimately
I had to let him go like he took his life.
I guess that would would have been three years later.
Three years later.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
How did you interpret that at the time you have
to let him go. Well, okay, so he was.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
That was in twenty fourteen, and that was the start
of his first psych manic episode that I was witnessing,
and so I knew, like I was, I knew something
was off with him, but I didn't want to admit it.

Speaker 4 (44:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
It's like with bipolar, and my experience with bipolar is
that he was presenting so healthy and well, like he
was getting up in the morning and he had all
these ideas and he's you know, like he was just
on fire, whereas before he would be in bed and
had chronic pain and was depressed and he was more
of the depressive.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
But this he was in this mania anyway.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
So it was years later, like that was the first
stint of like noticing that the behavior was changing, and
his sister had kind of tipped me off, like watch
for this, watch for this. I think my brother's having
this bipole anyway, So I didn't want to see it.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
And then I it's like.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
Oh like that because my mother, why, I ask, is
your own soul? So that yeah, I may put the
dots together, but I did not want to see it.
I did not want to experience it. And you know, Yeah,
the holder, the tighter you hold on to a loved one.
I mean, it's that's that's not going to work. You know,
you need to be in a place of letting them
be free so that you have them in the first
you know.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
Okay, well, thank you for sharing so much. I know
too much.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
There's no such thing here that was so great and
there's so much I'm going to think about when I
leave this.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
But let's end on a lighter lightning round. Okay, that
felt light.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Actually, I feel like it's like when I when I
share whatever, whether it's about it's cathartic, it's actually feels
it helps me in my journey and healing.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
Yeah, okay, let's do a lightning round. Okay, what's your
favorite musical? Well, I wouldn't say Anne because we were
talking about Anny. Does it have to be really fast
because I have a lot? No, no, no, no, Okay.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
My favorite musical of last year, because I've seen a
bunch of shows, is maybe Happy Ending, but is a
close that.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
It's so special? It's so special. I've heard that. Yeah,
I want to go there.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
I have listed like other ones that are right behind it.
Right behind sends a boulevard that production Death Becomes Her.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
I absolutely I want to see that next week.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
Oh, it's incredible. You have to see it with Meghan.
I have yet to see Megan and Jennifer Samar.

Speaker 3 (46:41):
Obsessed with her. I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
She's amazing. Okay, that's incredible bringing Chess back. I'm going
to see Chess Chong side.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Him so well, oh my god, I know, I know.
So you're like you like Broadway, a huge Broadway. What's
your favorite musical? I think like of all time is
probably Lay Miss Miss like one. I love. Okay, you
like Bil Schoenberg Macintosh. I love the drama. Are you
a sonhi fan? I'm not as much. Yeah, neither, I

(47:11):
want to hear yeah, no, no no, but Sunce at Boulevard.
I love that score. Okay. I love Avita. The score
of a Vita is good. I do too.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
I don't love the production of you know, yeah, Phantom
and Wicked.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
Yeah you're nay not a huge Wicked fan. Okay. Color
Purple is one of my favorite musicals. Well that's fantastic. Yeah,
my friend wrote the music to that.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Ali Willis the Late Rally Willis and the Color Purple.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
I got to see it.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
With the Shawn's But I to see with Cynthia Rivo amazing, incredible. Yeah,
am I've seen it with that? Yeah, Yeah, I love Chicago.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
I love Chicago. What a great book? Yeah, I mean Cabaret.
Cabaret is great. A chorus line, of course, chorus line.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
I need a chorus line to come back with like
a ton of famous people.

Speaker 3 (47:52):
Yeah, that's what I want to see. I would love that.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
That would be amazing. Oh, Rent, I'm a rental Rent
is fantastic. Okay, I like a music. Let's let's let
this be your lightning round.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
Come on, love. I could talk musicals all day long,
all day long. Charris plays a good musical too, Chris
pretty fantastic.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Yeah, and that there's a there's a sort of a
a kind of musical like the Bye Bye Birdie is
the How to Succeed Like those are just really nostalgic
and fun.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Yeah, to live in a time?

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Absolutely for Second Street, my grease back.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
In the day.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yeah, maybe next to normal, wasn't it? That was about
mental illness?

Speaker 3 (48:30):
Okay, I don't know that one.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Oh next to normal and next to normal? Yeah it
was a Adam Tavett. He's it was his breakout. I
think he won the Tony. It's a brilliant score. I
like also, Dear Evan Hanson.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, well that's great, that's great. I love Book of Mormon. Okay,
all right, I mean we could just do this forever.
Let's get to the next thing. Who is the goat
daytime talk show host?

Speaker 3 (48:53):
Oh my god, Oh my god. Well, Oprah, I mean,
but doctor Phil. I don't know. For me, I come
from a different like like vantage point. I'd say I
revered the two of them. Okay, they were brilliant in
their own right. Doctor Phil is really compelling television, is he?
He's really compelling? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (49:11):
Okay, what no, Doctor Phil or Phil Donahue. I'm talking
about Phil Donahue.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Oh I thought you said, Doctor Phil. Wait, we have
to like go back, go back, fix that?

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Why do you fix it? But like you can leave
it in? Yeah, I meant Phil Donague. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
Those are very different people. Yes, and you were going
along with me, you were going a lot. I'm not.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
There's a part of doctor Phil that really bothers me.
But it's very compelling TV. It's an arguable I mean, ye,
and he's very he's very good as a conductor.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
He was better for me when he was on Oprah
when he didn't have his own show, and he exploded.
I was definitely stressing. And I'm not gonna be trashing
doctor Phil.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
But Phil Donahue is appeared for me.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yes, and he and he was so charming, and he
was so smart, and he was so curious, and he
was so fair and he did groundbreaking stuff back then.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
So him and Oprah. I'm sorry that I said the
wrong name. I'm completely with you. What's the job you've
never tried but you'd like to?

Speaker 1 (50:12):
Oh, I wouldn't be good at it, but I really
would love to be a sports a basketball NBA sports
commentator or like see a pink on the sideline, like I'm.

Speaker 3 (50:19):
A big girl. Yes, love that.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
I would not be good at it, but I always
look at those women on there and like how they
get that job?

Speaker 3 (50:26):
I want to do that. I bet you could do it.
I bet you'd be good.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
No, I would, fan girl, I bet I would. Just
I yeah, I love we love the NBA. And he
used to really the Clippers, like the Yeah, it's going
to be their year.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
Next year is their year. I say that every year.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
Let's manifest it let's go Ricky Lake a stint. Yes,
being a color commentator the Clippers.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
I mean they know I love, they know where I am. Okay, okay,
they know how to reach you. Yes. If you could
start a school to teach people something, what would you
teach them? Oh?

Speaker 1 (51:00):
I mean I don't claim to. I think maybe authenticity
or finding a way to celebrate who you are and
own that and do with that what you will.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
I don't know. I don't know. It's great. I love that. Yeah, yeah, okay,
I love that. Thanks.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
What do you think of this age of influencers where
TikTokers and reality stars are guiding the kinds of conversations
you used to.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
That's a really good question. I don't know how I feel.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
I mean, I think it's so spread out, it's so
I mean, for me, I am addicted to my phone
and I am a recent addictee to TikTok. Okay, Like
I didn't really discover tiktoking about it until about a
year ago.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
And now I'm in. I'm in.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
They've got my algorithms. I mean, I've got the Broadway stuff.
Now with Broadway musicals, they want the TikTok disposure because
it sells tickets, and it's a younger.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Demo, yes, younger people.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and so it's it's fascinating. But so
I I have a love hate thing with it, like
I really wish. I mean, and I'm so grateful that
my children are sort of they were brought up outside
of the peak top of having a A ten year old.

Speaker 3 (52:12):
Right now, does he have a phone?

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Oh no, no, no, no no, he's not on social
media and won't be fun't how I would navigate.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
Terifica both my children. One doesn't do social media media
at all, he.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Doesn't have an account, and the other one barely has one.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
That's where you want to be.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's but but I think because
they were just they just aged out of it. I
think when it was like yeah, but they've had phones
since they were little. Yeah, but but they're not. They're
also very unique in their own way. But I love
that that that they're not addicted like I am.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
Yes, you know, but I don't think I answered your question.
But I I just think it's you have a love hate.
I get that, because so do I I have a
love hate too.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
Yeah, I mean, I am what's real? What is and
now with AI, I mean it's like it's scary.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
It is scary.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
It is like it's fascinating. It's like what they keep saying,
how our world is going to change. We are not
going to recognize in like ten years what.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
It's going to be super fast. Yes, yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
And I'm seeing it now. Actually I had an experience
with chat GPT. This is like so basically there's prompt
that I saw on Facebook that said, hey, chat GPT.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
You know of all you know, of all the data
you have.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
On me Ricky Lake, please tell me who I am
at my core, and don't do don't sugarcoat it.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
It literally, first of all, I want chatch GPT to
write my obituary. It is the most beautiful reflection of me,
and then my career and I'm telling I'll show you
after that it is. It was like the most it
was so beautiful, honestly, Wow. Actually gave me some ideas
and and I didn't go very deep. It keeps asking

(53:45):
you do you want to go deeper? Do you want
to go deeper? And it's like in two seconds and
so so that thing, the fact that we can actually
do that.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
Is terrifying and like exhilarating.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yes, yes, okay, this is the last question and it's
very important to me personally.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
Okay, when is it iced coffee season? Oh? All day,
every day.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yes, that's the correct answer for I knew. I knew
we were connected somehow.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
I do that. I need to come to the show,
even though I'm not promoting anything. I wanted to meet you.
So it's been a meet too. I'm so glad we
did this. Thank you so much. What a gift, thank
that you've given us. I appreciate it. Yay yay. Coming
up next week on.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Off the Cup, I sit down and talk to celebrity
chef rock O de Spirito.

Speaker 4 (54:35):
We cooked till the day we die. We never stop cooking.
I wake up and I cook eggs. And that's my
career and my work and my job and my love
and my joy. So yeah, so wrapped up in one
wonderful thing.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as
part of the Reason Choice Network.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
If you want more, check out the other.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
Reason Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel Hill and Native Land pod.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
For Off the Cup, I'm your host s c Cup.
Editing and sound design by Derek clements. Our executive producers
are me Se Cup, Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Rate and review wherever you get your podcasts, Follow or
subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday,