August 6, 2025 • 50 mins
This week it's chef and restauranteur Rocco DiSpirito! You know two of S.E.'s favorite things are reality TV and restaurants, so it's a real treat that S.E. gets to talk to probably THE person who reality food TV on the map. They talk about why he doesn't have boundaries in his work and life, what stage of his career he's in, what those early reality days were like (and an industry secret not even S.E. knew about) and why he loves therapy. And stay tuned for a VERY satiating lightning round and find out THE food you should be eating right now and some controversial opinions about shellfish and cheese.
If you're heading to the Hamptons, check out Rocco's pop-up in South Hampton through Labor Day 2025.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
When you look at food TV today, I think having
a background in gymnastics may be useful, so, you know,
being able to run around and overcome all kinds of
physical challenges cook in a very short timeline seems to
be a very helpful skill.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to off the Cup, my anti anxiety antidote. As
many of you know, I am a fan of reality television,
not all reality television, but certainly anything that's on Bravo.
Well before The Real Housewives, we were watching things like
Survivor and Big Brother, and for a brief period, every
(00:38):
Sunday night, my friend Lisa and I would watch The Restaurant.
We lived in New York City and here was this
new reality show about opening and running a restaurant in
Flat Iron. We were Food Network junkies as well, so
we were very aware of its star. When the restaurant
(00:59):
at twenty seconds Street finally opened, I am not ashamed
to say she and I went several times. You could
call us stalkers, in hopes of catching a glimpse of
him or his mother, who didn't care did not care
either one either one. We never did. But I'm thrilled
to have him on the podcast today. All these years later,
(01:22):
Roco de Spirito welcomed to off the cup.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Thank you for having me, And none of that is true,
is it?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
That's all one hundred percent wow.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
And you never called me or my mom.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Now I think we might have seen your mom in
the back. But it became our mission and it was
so fun because it was such It was such an era.
It was post nine to eleven, which had really rattled us,
and boy did we need this escape. And I know
that chapter of your career wasn't like without its issues,
but for us it was everything. It was this combination
of everything we were into at the time, restaurants and
(01:56):
reality and you know New York. I mean, it was
really a moment.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for reminding me.
It was definitely a great time. Nine to love It
informed that decision quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Oh tell me.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You know, I remember being so serious about the restaurant business,
and then nine to eleven happened and we barely were
able to scrape up everything and put the restaurant back
together after many, many months, and I remember this offer
coming along and thinking, you know, I think the world
almost ended a few months ago. Why not just see
what this is like for a change. You know, I'd
(02:31):
been a very serious chef for so many years, for
so many years working under the great chefs of New York.
And I don't know if you were aware, if you
were a fan of Food Network, you might have gotten
a glimpse. But back then, working for you know, the Danielle's,
all of the Danielle's and the Blais and the David's
and the John George's was you know, basically like going
(02:53):
to military training camps. I bet you had to really
be very serious. You had to be very sharp, you
had to operate on very little sleep.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I remember that time and going to restaurants, which is
my all time favorite thing to do. It was at
such a heyday in the in the like two thousands,
because for me, like I wasn't clubbing. I wanted a
table at Balthazar or Tao or Budacon or Sushisemba or
lore Fish Bar, like these were the places you had
to go at that time, and it's all that mattered
(03:23):
to me. We were restaurant hopping because that was what
you did. And it was such an era. And I
was at four Seasons and I went to Danielle was.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Fun and so entertaining, and there was always so many
people out. Do you remember you could go to Balthazar
at two three in the morning and order a three level.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Plateau of seafood. Oh I didn't. How fun is that?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It was so fun? And you're right, after nine to eleven,
we were all really traumatized. If you lived in the city.
It wasn't just that day, it was everything after. It
felt you know, getting on the subway, getting in an
air going to an airport, you know, crossing a bridge
from Manhattan. You know, everything was so fraught and it
(04:04):
felt like danger was around every corner. And for us,
going out to a restaurant was actually an act of
defiance and community and sort of reclaiming our town. And
you were a big part of that, all you know,
those restaurants and that that chapter that that was a
big part of that of that moment.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I'd like to think we were part of the healing process.
We all definitely you know, swept the ashes aside and
literally and metaphorically and put together our teams and you know,
for the people who lost people, you know, yeah, they
rebuilt their teams and getting open again was very, very important,
and you know, there was a flood of people coming in,
you know, every night to look for a little community
(04:49):
and a little humanity and a little love, and you know,
in the service and the other diners.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
And I think you're right, that was a heyday for
New York.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
And in terms of the restaurant community, the people that
worked in that community back then very serious and also
you know, very fun. When I say serious, you have
to remember, this is one of the most fun business
there is, you know, and I'm sure you understand that,
and that's probably why you love it.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, I did. We have a lot of fun. We
eat well, we drink, you know, we're out late.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So when I say serious, I'm talking about the daytime work,
you know, and you're prepping. And I think it was,
you know, largely due to the institutions like the ones
that all the Danielle's run. And you know what I'm
talking about when I say that, right, there was a
time where there were three Danielle's running, you know, the
entire Fine Doty establishment in New York. And I give
(05:38):
them a lot of credit for getting people out and back,
you know, back into the swing of things.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, and you know, shows like sex and the city
also played a huge role in that and putting those
restaurants on camera, sure, and making you know, driving people
back to them. But before nine to eleven, but especially
after nine to eleven of became everyone's job to revitalize
the city.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, for sure, it was great. That's when Giuliani was
a great mayor. Remember there was a moment.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Where when he was a normal guy, like when he
was like.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
So, I'm not sure if he was ever a normal guy,
but maybe he was.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Maybe we were all fooled because he's a fucking weirdo now,
and you know he was. He was great in that moment.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
For sure. For sure we needed that.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But I can't even I can't even reconcile that Rudy
and this Rudy. But yeah, you had you had Union
Pacific at the time, already before Rocos. On twenty second,
how much of opening Rocos was about opening a restaurant?
How much was it about doing a television show? Like
(06:47):
what you know, how was this presented to you or
how did you think about it?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Easy, easy answer.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Rocos was a restaurant way before it was television show. Conceptually, Uh,
television show came came squarely after the concept of Rocos
was put together, I'd been hoping to you know, you
know what happened in my mid to late thirties, I
sort of was able to shed my ethnic self loathing
and realized that my Italian you know, parents and grandparents
(07:15):
and aunts and uncles who still couldn't speak English, were
really the best best thing in my life, and their
lifestyles were something to absolutely emulate and re engage with.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
And I thought one of the you know.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
As a chef does, one of the best ways to
do and to honor that is to open a restaurant,
you know, with that celebrates that lifestyle and that food.
And that was the concept that it was, and it
was in the works for many, many years, you know,
probably five to eight years, and then at the end
of that path, at the end of the process of
finding a partner, Ben Silverman came along and you know,
(07:55):
suggested this show, and it helped accelerate and close the
loop on all the deals that were you know, in
the works to get that restaurant open. So in many
ways it really helped concretize the concept and getting get
the restaurant open. But I wanted to do that for
a long time, I'd been pretty self conscious about how
(08:16):
serious Union Pacific was and how expensive it was, and
I guess I felt I had a little bandwidth. Never
make that mistake. By the way, no one ever has
more bandwidth. There is no bandwidth to be had anywhere.
I thought I had a little bandwidth. I you know,
looking back, I had an incredibly talented group of people
that were working with me. Any one of those people
(08:37):
could now run an empire of restaurants, and so with
that blessing, I figured, you know, we could do we
could do more. And there were a couple of chefs
working with me who wanted to do more but didn't
want to do something as serious, and everybody loves Italian food.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, and my mom wanted to work. She wanted to
get get into the restaurants. She was so crazy.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I don't know why she would wanted to do more,
but she loved coming to work every day. So, you know,
for all those reasons, Rocos happened, and the show is
like just a almost after the fact kind of Okay,
let's throw this on top of everything and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So, at some point in your early career, did someone
say to you like, you're young, telegenic, you're cute, like
you should be on television. You should not just be
in the kitchen.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
No one's ever said that to me, but thank you
for saying that.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I'm just wondering how it happened.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
It happened, I was, I was right, No, I you know,
the television television stuff happened very organically.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Back then.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Food Network was a very serious place. Also, they were
celebrating the culinary art.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Right, can remember when.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Bravo was a serious channel, yep, And that we were
celebrating the arts and culture and Food Network I think
aspired to be like that too, And so they tapped
a lot of serious chefs in New York to go
do real demos and real cooking, and I would appear
as a guest on a bunch of shows quite often,
and little by little it turned into, you know, more
(10:06):
work on the network and more appearances on other people's
shows and occasionally in my own show. And you know,
I always thought it was because I was such a
good chef. So I please, please don't change my mind
about that.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I won't.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I won't. Yeah, I'm sure, like everything else, it's a
combination of things because there's a you know, not everyone
who's good at something in real life is good at
it on television. Not everyone who's you know, I mean
there's a lot that goes into you know, I make television.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yes, a lot that goes into it, for sure.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
And you were what someone would call the full package.
I'm sure. And that's not to take away from your
cooking skills, but you know, we have to be honest
about how this all happens. You need to also be
able to talk on television and compel people to watch,
and you you had all of that. And as you mentioned,
there were a lot of like really popping TV chefs then,
(11:00):
and we've had some of them on the podcast. Was anyone, though,
I can't remember, was anyone doing reality the way you
were doing it with the restaurant.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Well, certainly Mark Burnett was. He was producing, you know,
the two biggest realities goes out there at the time.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yep. But certainly there were no restaurants.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
That's what I mean. There no other chef was like
opening a restaurant on camera, sharing you know, it's staff
on camera.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I think I think maybe Gordon was doing something called
boiling Foyt. I can't remember that was before or after,
but it was sort of a reality kind of take
on running a restaurant. I don't remember it was opening
a restaurant or not, but no, I think that was
a pretty original idea by Mark Burnett, and you know,
first of its kind, it was. It turned into what
(11:49):
everybody seemed to have learned, including NBCs, is that without
a format, it can, you know, it can get a
little unmanageable.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
So it turned into Top Chef.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Is far as I understand the story that Top Chef
is the result of understanding wow, TV can play on
network television, but I think we need a form, pat
So it isn't you know, shooting eighty to one and
spending gazillions. I can only imagine what they spent back then,
because your cameras were expensive back then, remember when cameras
were right right, You may not remember, you might, I do,
(12:21):
I'll be too young for that, but cameras were very
expensive back then, and people holding cameras were very expensive.
Now it all seems so inexpensive and easy to do now,
right well, and it's.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
The least of our concerns right now in TV. But
you're right, because the food the Food Network's so different
now and it's it's like mostly competition shows, which are
super fun and I watch them, but like the cooking
shows are are few and far between, and I know
a lot of chefs complain like there's nowhere to just
go and watch really good yeah cooking and some of
(12:52):
the food destination shows, which I were like, were some
of my favorite.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I mean, I think all the food shows have gone
from eighty percent you know, cra in culinary arts, twenty
percent personality to the flip you know, to eighty percent
personalities riven in twenty percent culinary arts and cuisine.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing?
Where do you put that?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I don't know. I know it seems to be what
people want.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I guess people are watching that what I am noticing
those If you look at what's happening in social media,
you know, YouTube, long form, short form, ig TikTok, there's
a lot of serious chefs on those channels, yeah, cooking
real foods. So I'm I'm so confused, and I really
don't have the data you might because you're in the
business every day.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I don't know what ultimately works.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
I see the numbers of views on social media, and
I know some of those views are much higher than
what you know network television is getting.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So who knows? Who knows? Do you know?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
No, we're your boss?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Does that CNN tell you this stuff there? No?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I mean no, We're all trying to figure this exact
thing out, like how are we competing with social media
and and streamers and everyone's cord cutting? And then layered
on top for us is the political aspect? Do we
navigate all of that? So no, everyone's trying to figure
this out, and it's a crazy time.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Can I go back and touch on something that you
said earlier?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Please, sorry to interrupt. You mentioned ability to speak on TV.
So there was a whole generation of us that had
no ability to speak on TV or even go out
into a dining room and say LO to a customer.
And so for that generation, there was this media training duo,
a husband and her wife team that were assigned to
(14:29):
each of us, and we all had to go through
this like pretty rigorous training considering you know how long
it took to get comfortable in front of a camera
back then. Now, I feel like you were just raised
in an environment where you're always on camera. So there
is no more that there's no more being uncomfortable from
the camera because everyone's always on camera, right. Yeah, So
there's lou Ekis and his wife media trained every chef
(14:53):
that you know that you think we're good on TV.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
They all started out pretty bad.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
On TV, and him and a wonderful woman named Nancy Banks,
who still teaches acting in LA helped a lot of
chefs get comfortable. It really was an interesting process back then.
But yeah, so I just thought it was funny because
you think that's amazing from your perspective, was a natural talent,
but it wasn't at all.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
So it was cultivated and developed. I mean, if we
have that in my business, I've media trained politicians and okay,
some people media train the media to be better on camera.
We have that too, But that's wild. I had no
idea that that existed. What was media training? What did
it consist of?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
They would wow, so many different things, but most of
it was just, you know, putting you on film and
forcing you to watch it, which you know is complete torture.
I know, are you one of those people that can't
watch yourself on it?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I hate it?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Yeah? Yeah, me too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
So I never watched anything I'm in and they would
force you to do that, and they would just give
you notes and you know, get you to be more comfortable.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And a lot of mock interviews.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Back then, Katie work was the host of The Today Show,
and Nancy would set up a room with you know,
Al and Katie and everyone and the three cameras, you know,
so that it was a replica basically the Today Show set,
and she would play Katie and you know, and I'd
have to do a demo and they'd record the whole
thing and then we'd analyze it all.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Doesn't it sound awful?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
I mean, because it's not my business, it sounds really fine.
But I would I get, Oh yeah, I guess.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Well, let's do it. Let's do it together one day.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Let's let's do a mock Let's do a mock Today
Show interview and then be forced to watch it on
a big screen.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Sounds so much fun, like the best.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I want to talk more about your career, but I
always also like to ask what kind of kid were you?
Talk about who you are as little Roco?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Oh interesting, uh, pretty energy, very curious. I started cooking
very young, so part of my little kid. You know,
Era was cooking and always loved cooking very much. You know,
absolutely captivated me and you know, stole my heart at
a young age, about eleven, I would say. So a
(17:18):
big part of being kidd and growing up was being
being a chef, but very attached.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
To family, very attached to family. I was the kind
of kid that went to Rosary society meetings with my
mom and.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Said the whole entire rosary. Can you imagine ask it
to do that?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Now?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Does anyone even know what a rosary is anymore? I
don't think so, but yeah, I think it's about sixty
Hail Mary's. So we'd stand there and hold a rosary
and every time you said a Hail Mary, you'd move
the bead one step over.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
And you know I would do that with my mom. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I went to Catholic school and I'm Italian.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Oh okay, good, good, okay God.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So you understand I was an altar boy, so, you know,
very sort of pious acting Catholic school kid, but also
very curious and grow in a high energy in a
Jamaica Queen's environment, which is you know, inner city as
it gets and so lots of hyjiinks as well.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
So you knew early and you went to college for hospitality, right, Yeah,
I knew really early.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I went to both cooking school and then management school
for hospitality. So I went to the CIA and then
Boston University.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And I'm wondering, would you tell an aspiring chef today,
go to college, go to culinary school, or just start
in a restaurant. What would you say?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Watch YouTube? Watch from YouTube. Yeah, you can learn everything
that I begged people to teach me on YouTube. Now,
there was I did a cooking competition on NBC not
too long ago, and my competitor was a fourteen year
old kid and he was making ice cream in a
kitchen aid with dry ice and you know, and like
(18:56):
employing eighteen different molecular strategies that you would have had
to you know, live in Spain for six years and
begged for an Adrea to teach you, you know, these
these skills. Yeah, back then.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I'm not that long ago, not that long, only twenty
twenty five years ago. So you can learn everything you
need to learn on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
And then of course you need to go work in
a restaurant and get some practical skills. I don't I'm
not sure that you need to go to culinary school anymore,
although I.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Think it's a great thing to do, and it was
great for me. And it's a lot of education compressed
in a very small amount of time. So that's also good,
especially for chefs who want to really get out there
and cook. But you know, get a degree in finance,
get into pe, make a fortune, and then go learn
how to cook, and retire, i'd say, or some order.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
That's probably the best way to do this career at
this point.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, good advice. Right, So you're I think you're like
thirty one when you open your first restaurant. Is that right?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Sounds about right? Yeah, Well, how much.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Didn't you know when you open your first restaurant? How much?
Looking back now, how much didn't you know?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I feel like, since you're in television, you probably relate
to this. But we wake up, chefs wake up every
day feeling like we don't know anything. So the restaurant
business is, you know, it's that it's that friend, that
person you're in love with that you're chasing your whole life,
you know, trying to figure out what is gonna what's
what's it going to take today? This week to get
(20:22):
them to pay attention to me. It's, you know, a
complicated business that's super dynamic, always changing. So you know,
I didn't know a lot then. I don't feel like
I know a lot today. You know, I think a
lot of it is instinct and guesswork, and we enjoy
that obviously, you know, not.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Uh it not being entirely data.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Driven is kind of fun sometimes because for a creative
that's fun. We use a lot more data today than
we ever have. We have, you know, all kinds of
information broken down to very granular levels now on apps
on our phone, something we didn't have then when I
opened my first restaurant. So we get to make a
lot more informed decisions. We get to see people canceling
(21:07):
their reservation when they cancel it in real time now, right,
we couldn't do back then. This is one of those
businesses where and again I think it's a lot like
television where you just never really know enough. Yeah, and
there's no way to ever know f there's just no
way to master this well.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And it's changing so quickly, whether it's the technology or
the medium or the interactive experience, like it's always changing.
And so yeah, I totally get what you're saying. You're
always just trying to keep up and future proof and
predict the next thing totally exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And the chefs who have you know, quote unquote mastered
it have always if you look at all of them,
like I'll mention one of the Daniells again, him and
so many like him, have been smart enough to find
a partner very early on, you know, very early in
their career that they have been with for twenty thirty years,
(21:58):
that have supported them thick and thin, through recessions and
nine to eleven's and everything else, realizing that over time
this will be a very fruitful endeavor, this will be
you know, a profitable experience, but it won't be today,
it won't be next week, you know, necessarily. And those
those other chefs who I think have you know, huge
(22:21):
restaurant empires now that seem very comfortable, and there's in
their settings, in their spaces and Danielle's you know, really
good example. Nobu obviously another great example, uh with a
you know, very famous partner who who discovered and stuck
by him all these years. So the one thing I've
learned is that you know, enduring partnership is always a
(22:42):
good way to go.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I've asked ming Sivas the Bear do you watch? Does
it actually capture opening and running a restaurant in the
big city?
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Oh? Well, I think it does quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, I think The Bear is a really good portrayal
of how things work in a restaurant. I think the characters, uh,
in many cases are very similar to real life chef characters.
You know, the angst and the psychological stuff and uh,
(23:14):
the you know, desperation for excellence and the self doubt,
you know, all that is pretty pretty spot on. Also,
the the extreme humanity and pure love and joy that
exists in their hearts is is spot on too. And
that certainly that the difficulty of you know, opening and
running places is captured pretty well. There almost is never
(23:36):
a situation where you open cans of tomatoes and find money,
though in real life that would be, you know, something
that would be pretty wonderful. It would have to be
a couple of million dollars now, but you know, uh
Ki Krmi did well with the what was it.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Two hundred grand? One hundred grand?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
But I like that there's you know, fictionalized versions of
what we do now, not just the reality stuff and
not just the competition team, because I think it's a
very rich world with rich characters and you know, yes,
lots of emotional content. It's it's it's it's perfect for
dramatized advertising.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah, what's your favorite, what's like the best movie about food?
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Oh, It's a Big Night, that's my favorite. Big Night. Yeah.
I mean, isn't it Isn't it just perfect?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It is perfection. I saw it with my mom when
I was like fifteen, at like a little movie theater
in Boston, and I was like, oh my god, this
is so good.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, think about it. I mean they're two very passionate people.
They're immigrants there. You know, the restaurant is going to
be their salvation, right, They're they're hoping for this guy
to come in and make them, you know, important and relevant.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
They love to cook, they love to serve. I mean,
it's just beautiful.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
It's perfect, such a perfect little snapshot of what things
are like in our world.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
It's so good and in a very similar and yet
disimilar way Stick Pizza, which is not really a food movie,
but still that sort of beside story of waiting for
the restaurant critic to come in and make this little
mom and pop pizza shot famous. Like it was such
a nice nostalgic, you know, way of showing that I
(25:19):
love those, I can really relate to those.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I pitched one, a mockumentary of the food world to
the waiting for Guffvin people, Yes years ago.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Don't you think it's time for something like that? Yes? Yeah,
wouldn't that be great? Waiting for How have they not
done that?
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Right? They did dog shows?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I know you've done everything, folks.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Singing, oh my gosh, and so what happened? Where'd that go?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Nowhere?
Speaker 1 (25:44):
I just you know nowhere, Like you know how it is.
You got to keep pushing. I stopped pushing that.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I do have to, I do how it is. I
was pushing a mockumentary about the news for a while too,
and you know, I'll circle back around to it at
some point, but you got to give it some space.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
And yeah, you know, you got to speak to David
what's his name? You gotta you got to meet him somewhere.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Who's David what's his name?
Speaker 1 (26:08):
The guy who produced and directed all those spinals happed
all the way through.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
To I only know like Christopher Guest is christ is
that who? Yeah, that is number Rock.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
I would call him, but I gotta find Christopher guests
now him down and talk to him.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
We both do, We both do. We have two projects
for him, you know, speaking about TV and I. I
come from experience with this. There is a downside to
putting your real self on TV. What kinds of things
did you experience that you know you could have lived.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Without people noticing that I've gotten fat recently? Not a
great not one of those downside moments. Uh, yeah, let's
see what else? Every time I post a video, someone
has to remind me, Like, I'm pretty aware of that.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
You know, I feel bad enough as it is. It's crazy, right, people.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Just pointing out every little, every little imperfection about your
life and your appearance and your hair and your teeth.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Oh, totally. Yeah, it's not fun. That is not fun.
It comes with it, but it's not fun.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
There was, uh a couple of times where you know,
fiction and reality crossed each other's paths and created some
trouble for me that would have been totally avoidable had
I had not been on television.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
You know, where one one path and.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
The other they fed each other and fiction became reality
and you know that kind of thing. Those moments are
a little are interesting. The thing about reality TV and
restaurants is people can come in, you know, to your
space while you're there working. So there's that additional.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Layer of right, you know, invasion, just the word invasion, Yeah,
that's the word. That's one of the words. Yeah, scarcity
of privacy.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, yeah, because people, whether you're anti v or not,
you become a well known chef. People can come into
your restaurant, right, which you want. But of course sure
there are some folks you would not want, and you
don't get to say who comes in and who doesn't.
You know, you don't always know. Yeah, I would imagine
that could feel a little scary sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah, I mean it's especially when there's you know, eighteen
camera crews shooting everything and turning into you know, the
next episode. But I do want to say that and
people know that, you know, it's mostly upside. It's it's
incredibly better than I imagine as a kid, when I was
a kid imagining being chef, I really could never have
(28:40):
been envisioned any of this happening, and I'm thrilled that
it happens. So yeah, there's a little little bit of,
you know, some price to pay for losing privacy, but
you know, if it's okay in the end, it's very,
very worth it.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
The fact that we get people to appreciate what we.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Do on a level that we do, it's just incredible,
Really is incredible, and I don't think anybody should lose sight
of that, especially those of us who remember what it
was like when we were still in the dark ages,
you know, when we were in the back and no
one knew who we were and we toiled away in anonymity. Anonymity, yes,
for decades. It's definitely a lot better than that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Do you think about having to stay relevant and whether
that's on TV or just in food, do you feel
like that's something you have to keep constantly doing? Stay relevant?
Speaker 3 (29:45):
You know?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I feel that way in my business. I have to,
you know, not only keep on top of the news
and have something to say about it, but I have
to keep presenting my reason for being here, you know.
And I'm wondering if you you guys as celebrity chefs,
feel that way too.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I think we probably don't. I probably don't think about
it enough. I probably should think about it more. I
keep believing that this food and good food and creating
good stuff, whether it's in your restaurant or outside of
your restaurant, is a form of relevance. But when you
look at food TV today, I think having a background
(30:25):
in gymnastics may be useful, so, you know, being able
to run around and overcome all kinds of physical challenges
cook in a very short timeline seems to be a
very helpful skill. So maybe I should have put a
little more time into that kind of ninja competition stuff
as a kid courses. Yeah, yeah, I probably should have
done the ABC Ninja show next, right, and then I
(30:47):
could have brought it all together and made like One Us, Yeah,
a big, beautiful competition reality show. But I don't think
about it enough. I'm gonna just say I don't think
about it enough. I think I need to think about
it more. And clearly, the types of people who are
becoming chefs have changed, and so there probably is a
new type of, you know, ideal chef personality that I'm
(31:11):
sure we will all be replaced with soon.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeesh, bleak. But I totally relate, and we talk a
lot on this show about career arcs because at a
certain age, you're no longer at the beginning of your career.
Maybe you're not even in the middle of your career,
and that can be hard to navigate psychologically and emotionally,
and so we talk about that. We talk about mental
health a lot on the show. I'm wondering what you
(31:33):
would say, What stage of your career are you in
right now?
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I am approaching the memoir stage of my career. I think,
love it.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah, I'm in the extended version of my career. But
here's the thing about chefs and why we're different. We
cook till the day we die. We never stop cooking.
Our career and our work are basically the same thing.
So we don't have our work that we do every
day and then think of our career is the separature.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
You know. It's like I wake up and I cook eggs,
and that's my.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Career and my work and my job and my love
and my joy.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
So yeah, it's all wrapped up in one wonderful thing.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
And it would be really weird if I got up
and no one was paying me, but I got up
and just like did the news in my bedroom, Like
that'd be weird. You're right, that's a different. You get
to do yours as long as you want.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
I think that would be fun.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
But yeah, the chefs are different, right because we get
to do what we love every day, and if we're lucky,
we get paid for it. And I really hope that
the newer chefs feel that joy from cooking too, because
there are many times where you know, the career part
of it or the media part of it are not
going to be a you know, not going to be there,
and you have to love the work and the craft
itself has to deliver a lot of joy to your
(32:47):
body every day. And I still get Goose Holmes cooking. Still,
I still feel tremendous joy when I make something that
comes out well. And when I call my farmer friend
Hank and he picks tomatoes from me, it's a pinnacle
life moment.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
So the career part is an interesting conversation, but it's
not something.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I'm dwelling on or worry about, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I want to just keep cooking and whether that brings
me benefits in the new type of chef career that
exists now that didn't exist when I was a kid,
when chefs were not in the media and didn't write
books and didn't have, you know, six hundred projects working
at the same time, and didn't have restaurants in Saudi
Arabia and Japan, you know, when my life was simpler.
(33:30):
So I can always go back to that very simple
chef life and be very happy.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
So I'm not sure if that answers your question. But
you know, obviously I'm in.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
The later stages of my career, and whenever I worry
about it and I think about what that means, I
find immediate and deep comfort with the fact that I
can just do what I love to do, and that.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Is my career. So I love that.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
That's a very cool place to be, you know, a
very poor part of what's different about chefs.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Well, I love that, and I haven't thought of it
like that. I you know, I had an actor on
a couple of weeks ago, and I, you know, asked
a similar question. He said, you know, I'm sixty five
and I feel like I'm just getting started, like I'm
just getting good at this, and he'd been doing it
for yeah, forty years, So you just never know. And I,
you know, it brings up a lot of it can
(34:18):
bring up a lot of feelings. Uh sure, Yeah, you know, disorientation.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
And I talk about this with my therapist, just like
you know, I'm sure your actor friend did.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
It's definitely a topic.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
But I think if you're lucky enough to have the
craft embedded into your career. Yeah, you know, this actor
friend of yours can go do you know? One man
shows in Broadway and off Broadway, and.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
That's what he's say.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
You can stand up in front of a craft and
deliver I'm hoolou and feel pretty good about his career.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Right, Yeah, that's exactly what he said. He loves doing
it so much. The accolades, the money, the fan like,
that's so secondary and I completely understand that.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
And I do understand what your friend is saying because
acting and cooking are similar in that you need many,
many years of experience to truly truly understand what you're doing. Yeah,
there are days, you know, very recently where I feel
like I could finally say, wow, I've really learned a lot.
I can look at almost any ingredient and know what
to do. And you know that's after thirty years of cooking.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
So you mentioned therapy. I talk about therapy all the
time too, because it's been.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Big fan, big fan, Oh, me too, there's a therapy
more me or you. Let's guess.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I mean I live for therapy. Therapy saved my life. Yes,
it's still saving my life every week.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
You know, it's the best thing ever can we do?
If I've been a rant on therapy?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, go, So that's the best part of therapy.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Well, the fact that there is a person who is
trained to listen, understand help that doesn't have a personal agenda,
that is enmeshed with your life.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Think about that.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
There is no one in your life you're not your mom,
not your dad, not your significant other, your best friend
that won't have a personal agenda because of how their
lives intertwined with their lives. So you'll never get objective, fully,
you know, properly objective feedback. Even a therapist has a
little bit of an agenda and they're human and they can't,
you know, help but to not be one hundred percent
(36:10):
objective all the time. But you know, your friend, your mom,
and your dad are always going to be subjective, and
you need objective advice. You need people in your life
who are trained, first of all, you know, smart of course,
who have experienced, who understand, who have seen a lot
of people go through what you go through. Those are
the people who were really qualified to help you get
through these situations, and there's still stigma. What's up with
(36:32):
the stigma, guys? I mean the therapists in second grade.
I shed the stigma like in the seventies, and you know,
figured out that it wasn't worth worrying about. You know,
I didn't know I was in therapy until I went
to college.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
What'd you think you were doing?
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I thought I was going to playgroup. Nice.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I thought it was playgroup, yeah, because because it started
out with a bunch of kids playing in a room
separate from the classroom, and then eventually it was just
me playing in a room separate from the classroom. And
then eventually there was no playing, it was just talking.
And I didn't realize that, you know, had gone from
basically a kid's playgroup to you know, real proper therapy
until I went to college and they said, are you
(37:09):
in therapy? And I said no, And they said, well,
we're looking at your records and it says you've been
a therapy since nineteen seventy something.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
It was like, oh, that's what that was. Okay, Yeah,
so I guess I've been a therapy anyway.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I really enjoy I look forward to talking to my therapists.
And if you're a person out there who's thinking maybe
a therapist can help me, absolutely they can help you,
you know, And it takes time to find the right person.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
You go through a few people.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
And that's okay, and that's okay, and you can take
breaks and you can you can do it five days
a week if you want, once a month, once a
year anyway.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Absolutely, And I appreciate.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
My endorsement for therapy. The profession is over. No.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
I appreciate that because it's important to me my mantra
as always, when you talk about mental health, it makes
it easier to talk about mental health. And that's the
whole point that, you know, to end the stigma and
the silence and make it a nat thing to start
sentences with. Well, my therapist was saying, right like, that's
what I want. I just want to normalize it to
(38:06):
the point where it yet we don't even have to
talk about mental health as its own category. It's just
you're talking about the shit you're going through in very real,
practical ways because we're all going through something. I don't
know anyone who's not going through something and so you know,
either you're dealing with it, working on it, getting help,
(38:27):
you know, doing the things, or you're ignoring it. And
we all know how that's going to end when you
ignore it.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Yeah, and it really works.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
You know, there's training that occurs in therapy that helps
you recognize patterns, impulse, you know, just things that you
don't realize you're doing that you can train yourself to
stop doing. There are things that you need to be
doing more of that you can train yourself to be
doing more of.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
It is very effective, is very effective. So my first
form of therapy was cooking because you know, cooking really
captures your entire attention. You have to be ultra focused
and so less opportunity to get into the trouble. And
then then of course proper therapy with real PhDs you know,
took over and end helped a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
It's a real thing. I know in some people's mind,
especially people of a generation, they think it's like huy
and fake and made up. No, it's a real thing.
It's a science. And you will be amazed at when,
like when you say something, they'll be like, I know
what that is. That's a thing, and let me explain
where that's coming from, and all the things will click
and you'll be I mean, you just feel so much
(39:30):
less alone when something has a name and then a
reason behind you to diagnosed, and here's how to get
out of doing that. It's so great that such a relief.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Before we get to a lightning round, I've got one
more question.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Oh there's a lightning round.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
No one told me about the lightning round, Derek, there's
a lightning round. There was no lightning round mentioned in
my emails, Lauren.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Sorry, we spring it on you. We spring it on you. No,
it's easy and fun. But before I just have one
more question about the Hantons. What's going on in the Hamptons.
I am hearing about these market wars, these like high
and grocery store wars that are like taking over the Hamptons.
Is that what is happening right now?
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Oh? Yeah, they're you know, the Sagaponic General Store is
totally taking over the Hamptons.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I don't think anything is happening in the Hampton is.
Most people are asleep out here. There's nothing happening out here.
It's a very sleepy part of the world. There's a
little bit of nightlife. There's a few restaurants, and you know,
most of the time people are home lounging, lounging in
a chair, you know, trying to get some a little
sun tam. But there are you know, high end general
(40:34):
stores and you know stores that sell gems and jellies
and farm stands, and they've become you know, super high end,
and I think those that's it. That's it, that's all
that's happening. There's nothing, there's no nothing more than that.
I am running a pop up out here though, called
pop Up by Rocco. So yes, if if this happens
(40:54):
to make it to air or whatever you call it
in this podcast world these days, I don't know anym
or before the podcast is over, I'd love for people to.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Come come on in. When can they come in in Southampton?
Where in Southampton? I make really good food. I'm on
the line cooking every night. It's great. I love it.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
But when can they come in? How long is the
pop up?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Oh? Oh, it's don until Labor Day?
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Perfect? Perfect? Everybody?
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Well are you coming in and bring Derek and Lauren?
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I will come in.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
That would be good. Do you get out here. I do.
I do.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
I have friends in East Hampton, so I'm out there.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Great.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, So on the way to east, make a pit
stop in South Set around six o'clock.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Okay, okay, perfect, maybe I'll finally get to see you.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Yeah, would be great, would be great.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Okay, here's the lightning round.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Lightning rounds frighten me. They always have, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
People say that, I don't know why. This is the
easiest part of the podcast. Okay, Manhattan or New England
clam chowder?
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Obviously New England clam chowder for all the right reasons.
It's a lot better correct answer.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
What's the best way to make and eat a lobster roll?
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I think?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
I think I'm not from Maine, so lobsteroll is in
my backyard, but I think it's all butter and it's
lobster claws only. Is the way to do it with
a split top? Butnt I think that's the way.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I'm As a New Englander, I will sanction this answer, right, Okay?
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Great?
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah? Are you allowed to put grated cheese on pasta
with shellfish?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
You're that's a terrible question.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
You know you're not, But it's sometimes I know that
you know you're not, But sometimes it tastes good.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
Don't tell you sometimes you must. Don't tell anyone I
said it tastes good sometimes.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yeah, I feel the same way when I'm having lights,
but it's not allowed pasta and clams like sometimes I
want a.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Little, a little at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Parmagen reggiano is you know, msg and salt and a
little bit of dairy flavor.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
And that works on seafood, you know, So.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
It really does, especially like a diavolo where it's spicy
that the cheese can cool it down.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
I think spicy needs palm for sure. For sure, I.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Would say in general it works against the seafood. But
there are exceptions, and you know, one of them is
a dish I make with saffron and shrimp that should
technically not need parm but is so much better with palm.
So I'll make it for you if you come out here,
we'll do it all.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Ok Uh.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
French or Italian?
Speaker 3 (43:31):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Okay, So that's a tough one because they're both great.
And why is this Spanish added to those?
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Because France, Spain and Italy I think are in this
eternal competition for who's the greatest makes the greatest food,
lives the greatest lifestyle. And it's a tough one because
they're all really good. They all have tremendous food culture.
So I'm going to say that's a three way tie.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I like the addition of Spain because you're right.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Just think Harmoni, Baric Go and like just that alone
and they olive.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
I went to c Comroca, Oh my god, and Girona
so incredible, incredible life changing.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Too much, right, it's too much, right, I know it's
too much. But the line.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Little mollusks urchin and then they bring out all the
little candies at the Oh my god, it's just too much.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
And how about those people, they're pretty sexy.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
I gotta say, incredible, incredible people. Yeah, what's the thing
you never.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Eat almost never eat fast food, never eat fast food?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Okay, yeah, it's a good one. What's the thing we
should all be eating more.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Of tomatoes right now? Is should be eating tomatoes like crazy.
They are like God's handiwork at this moment, and they're
just perfect, and they they spark everything in your brain
and body and.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Make you feel everything. They're wonderful.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Love that a while Ago I wrote along a piece
about Rhode Island Kalamari and the there's a thing called
the Klamari index, which was a unit of measurement in
the New York Times that would sort of measure how
quickly a food item became suddenly ubiquitous. So, you know,
they had the Calamari index for like pesto and quinwa.
(45:19):
What is the item right now that would have the
highest Klamari Index rating?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Oh? Good question. Is it maybe ramen everywhere popping up everywhere?
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, in Western restaurants and Eastern restaurants, ramen everything.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
That's a great answer. That's a great answer, And you're
so right. It's because it's it's everywhere, and people are
making it like high end, they're making it street food.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
Yeah, they're turning it into other dishes. They're re engineering
dishes to include ramen.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Many people are just focused on actual original ramen, which
is great too.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty ubiquitous.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
I would says that the very what's is it a
ten on the culinary in this or what's the index
from one to one hundred?
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Ye to I think okay, so it's it's a nine.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, that's a great answer. This is the final question.
It's really important to me. When is iced coffee season.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Okay, so.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
One thing I learned from my Italian relatives is the
appreciation of coffee. And there's a coffee for every moment,
every hour of the day, every day part. And there's
something called a sheikirato, which is espresso and ice shaken
until it's foamy. And it seems to me like there
(46:37):
is no bad time for that. But the best time
for that is an after end of afternoon sunny period. Yes,
where you've like made it to the end of the
day and you're tired and a little sweaty and you
need a refreshment, and that is around three o'clock in Italy.
I love that the espresso shekirato.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I love that it's so good to help you get
through your latini.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Yeah, it's a little bit like the precursors to the fastage.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Would I be ridiculed for ordering decaf coffee in Italy?
Speaker 3 (47:11):
I don't think they'd have it. I don't think. Yes,
probably would be some ridicule.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yep, I assumed as much.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Well, I really I've never heard of it, and I'm
sure it's there somewhere, but.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
No, I suspect this is true. I grew up. I've
been drinking dunkin Donuts coffee since I was a child.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
And oh, so you really are from New England.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I am, and I'm Italian, and so like, coffee is
a very big part of who I am.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
Copp is Italian.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
No I just being being Italian. Coffee is a big
part of who I am. And all the coffee you know,
history and the regimens, the routines and when you drink
this one and when you drink that one, like it's
I get it. But recently, I think because of perry menopause,
I had to switch to decaf. I'm very ashamed of it.
It's something I don't talk about a lot. I haven't.
(47:56):
You know, I'm not completely okay with it personally, But
this is where I am. And so I've been wondering
if when I travel overseas to places like Italy, if
I were your own calf, would I be deported?
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Definitely not deported. You know those Italians they're too lazy
to take a seriously.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
But you might have to ask. In a few different places,
you might have to bring your own. It might be
one of those situations where you need to bring your.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Own coffee to Italy. Oh my god, Okay, I think
I'll suffer through the caffeine when I go back to
Italy rather than that.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
It Is it one of those situations where when you
have it in Italy it's better, or because I've I've
found that with many things that people complain about, dairy allergies,
gluten analogies, they always sell, but when I'm in Italy
it's never a problem. I don't know what the difference
is and is it one of those situations it yet I.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Haven't tested it because this is just in the past
I'd say six months, So I will test it when
I go back because of travel quite a bit, and
I'm hoping that's the case. I'm hoping that when I'm there,
like you know, I don't get hungover when I'm overseas
right as much, I think, because it's like mineral.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
Walking glut and you can eat dairy.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
I'm gonna also guess that one espresso in Italy contains
about a twentieth of the amount of caffeine than a
full Duncan does, probably a full cup of Duncan, because
those are those are big.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
They are there an American size. Yeah, yes, well, rock
O DeSpirito. This was so fun and I learned so
much and it was just great to talk to you.
And I will see you out in the Hamptons, I.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Hope, so I really do, please come, seriously, it would
be great. It would be great.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
Next week on Off the Cup, I sit down and
talk to Sheena she author of My Good Side. I
am so thankful that I've had the platform of reality
TV to share my personal story, because that's not something
you get with acting. Off the Cup is a production
of iHeart Podcasts as part of the Reason Choice Network.
(49:55):
If you want more, check out the other Reason Choice podcasts, Politics,
Jamel Hill, and Native Land Pod. For Off the Cup,
I am your host, Se Cup. Editing and sound design
by Derek Clements. Our executive producers are me Se Cup,
Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and review wherever you
get your podcasts, Follow or subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday.
When you look at food TV today, I think having
a background in gymnastics may be useful, so, you know,
being able to run around and overcome all kinds of
physical challenges cook in a very short timeline seems to
be a very helpful skill.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to off the Cup, my anti anxiety antidote. As
many of you know, I am a fan of reality television,
not all reality television, but certainly anything that's on Bravo.
Well before The Real Housewives, we were watching things like
Survivor and Big Brother, and for a brief period, every
(00:38):
Sunday night, my friend Lisa and I would watch The Restaurant.
We lived in New York City and here was this
new reality show about opening and running a restaurant in
Flat Iron. We were Food Network junkies as well, so
we were very aware of its star. When the restaurant
(00:59):
at twenty seconds Street finally opened, I am not ashamed
to say she and I went several times. You could
call us stalkers, in hopes of catching a glimpse of
him or his mother, who didn't care did not care
either one either one. We never did. But I'm thrilled
to have him on the podcast today. All these years later,
(01:22):
Roco de Spirito welcomed to off the cup.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Thank you for having me, And none of that is true,
is it?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
That's all one hundred percent wow.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
And you never called me or my mom.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Now I think we might have seen your mom in
the back. But it became our mission and it was
so fun because it was such It was such an era.
It was post nine to eleven, which had really rattled us,
and boy did we need this escape. And I know
that chapter of your career wasn't like without its issues,
but for us it was everything. It was this combination
of everything we were into at the time, restaurants and
(01:56):
reality and you know New York. I mean, it was
really a moment.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for reminding me.
It was definitely a great time. Nine to love It
informed that decision quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Oh tell me.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You know, I remember being so serious about the restaurant business,
and then nine to eleven happened and we barely were
able to scrape up everything and put the restaurant back
together after many, many months, and I remember this offer
coming along and thinking, you know, I think the world
almost ended a few months ago. Why not just see
what this is like for a change. You know, I'd
(02:31):
been a very serious chef for so many years, for
so many years working under the great chefs of New York.
And I don't know if you were aware, if you
were a fan of Food Network, you might have gotten
a glimpse. But back then, working for you know, the Danielle's,
all of the Danielle's and the Blais and the David's
and the John George's was you know, basically like going
(02:53):
to military training camps. I bet you had to really
be very serious. You had to be very sharp, you
had to operate on very little sleep.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I remember that time and going to restaurants, which is
my all time favorite thing to do. It was at
such a heyday in the in the like two thousands,
because for me, like I wasn't clubbing. I wanted a
table at Balthazar or Tao or Budacon or Sushisemba or
lore Fish Bar, like these were the places you had
to go at that time, and it's all that mattered
(03:23):
to me. We were restaurant hopping because that was what
you did. And it was such an era. And I
was at four Seasons and I went to Danielle was.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Fun and so entertaining, and there was always so many
people out. Do you remember you could go to Balthazar
at two three in the morning and order a three level.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Plateau of seafood. Oh I didn't. How fun is that?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It was so fun? And you're right, after nine to eleven,
we were all really traumatized. If you lived in the city.
It wasn't just that day, it was everything after. It
felt you know, getting on the subway, getting in an
air going to an airport, you know, crossing a bridge
from Manhattan. You know, everything was so fraught and it
(04:04):
felt like danger was around every corner. And for us,
going out to a restaurant was actually an act of
defiance and community and sort of reclaiming our town. And
you were a big part of that, all you know,
those restaurants and that that chapter that that was a
big part of that of that moment.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I'd like to think we were part of the healing process.
We all definitely you know, swept the ashes aside and
literally and metaphorically and put together our teams and you know,
for the people who lost people, you know, yeah, they
rebuilt their teams and getting open again was very, very important,
and you know, there was a flood of people coming in,
you know, every night to look for a little community
(04:49):
and a little humanity and a little love, and you know,
in the service and the other diners.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
And I think you're right, that was a heyday for
New York.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
And in terms of the restaurant community, the people that
worked in that community back then very serious and also
you know, very fun. When I say serious, you have
to remember, this is one of the most fun business
there is, you know, and I'm sure you understand that,
and that's probably why you love it.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, I did. We have a lot of fun. We
eat well, we drink, you know, we're out late.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So when I say serious, I'm talking about the daytime work,
you know, and you're prepping. And I think it was,
you know, largely due to the institutions like the ones
that all the Danielle's run. And you know what I'm
talking about when I say that, right, there was a
time where there were three Danielle's running, you know, the
entire Fine Doty establishment in New York. And I give
(05:38):
them a lot of credit for getting people out and back,
you know, back into the swing of things.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, and you know, shows like sex and the city
also played a huge role in that and putting those
restaurants on camera, sure, and making you know, driving people
back to them. But before nine to eleven, but especially
after nine to eleven of became everyone's job to revitalize
the city.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, for sure, it was great. That's when Giuliani was
a great mayor. Remember there was a moment.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Where when he was a normal guy, like when he
was like.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
So, I'm not sure if he was ever a normal guy,
but maybe he was.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Maybe we were all fooled because he's a fucking weirdo now,
and you know he was. He was great in that moment.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
For sure. For sure we needed that.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But I can't even I can't even reconcile that Rudy
and this Rudy. But yeah, you had you had Union
Pacific at the time, already before Rocos. On twenty second,
how much of opening Rocos was about opening a restaurant?
How much was it about doing a television show? Like
(06:47):
what you know, how was this presented to you or
how did you think about it?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Easy, easy answer.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Rocos was a restaurant way before it was television show. Conceptually, Uh,
television show came came squarely after the concept of Rocos
was put together, I'd been hoping to you know, you
know what happened in my mid to late thirties, I
sort of was able to shed my ethnic self loathing
and realized that my Italian you know, parents and grandparents
(07:15):
and aunts and uncles who still couldn't speak English, were
really the best best thing in my life, and their
lifestyles were something to absolutely emulate and re engage with.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
And I thought one of the you know.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
As a chef does, one of the best ways to
do and to honor that is to open a restaurant,
you know, with that celebrates that lifestyle and that food.
And that was the concept that it was, and it
was in the works for many, many years, you know,
probably five to eight years, and then at the end
of that path, at the end of the process of
finding a partner, Ben Silverman came along and you know,
(07:55):
suggested this show, and it helped accelerate and close the
loop on all the deals that were you know, in
the works to get that restaurant open. So in many
ways it really helped concretize the concept and getting get
the restaurant open. But I wanted to do that for
a long time, I'd been pretty self conscious about how
(08:16):
serious Union Pacific was and how expensive it was, and
I guess I felt I had a little bandwidth. Never
make that mistake. By the way, no one ever has
more bandwidth. There is no bandwidth to be had anywhere.
I thought I had a little bandwidth. I you know,
looking back, I had an incredibly talented group of people
that were working with me. Any one of those people
(08:37):
could now run an empire of restaurants, and so with
that blessing, I figured, you know, we could do we
could do more. And there were a couple of chefs
working with me who wanted to do more but didn't
want to do something as serious, and everybody loves Italian food.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, and my mom wanted to work. She wanted to
get get into the restaurants. She was so crazy.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I don't know why she would wanted to do more,
but she loved coming to work every day. So, you know,
for all those reasons, Rocos happened, and the show is
like just a almost after the fact kind of Okay,
let's throw this on top of everything and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So, at some point in your early career, did someone
say to you like, you're young, telegenic, you're cute, like
you should be on television. You should not just be
in the kitchen.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
No one's ever said that to me, but thank you
for saying that.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I'm just wondering how it happened.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
It happened, I was, I was right, No, I you know,
the television television stuff happened very organically.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Back then.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Food Network was a very serious place. Also, they were
celebrating the culinary art.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Right, can remember when.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Bravo was a serious channel, yep, And that we were
celebrating the arts and culture and Food Network I think
aspired to be like that too, And so they tapped
a lot of serious chefs in New York to go
do real demos and real cooking, and I would appear
as a guest on a bunch of shows quite often,
and little by little it turned into, you know, more
(10:06):
work on the network and more appearances on other people's
shows and occasionally in my own show. And you know,
I always thought it was because I was such a
good chef. So I please, please don't change my mind
about that.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I won't.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I won't. Yeah, I'm sure, like everything else, it's a
combination of things because there's a you know, not everyone
who's good at something in real life is good at
it on television. Not everyone who's you know, I mean
there's a lot that goes into you know, I make television.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yes, a lot that goes into it, for sure.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
And you were what someone would call the full package.
I'm sure. And that's not to take away from your
cooking skills, but you know, we have to be honest
about how this all happens. You need to also be
able to talk on television and compel people to watch,
and you you had all of that. And as you mentioned,
there were a lot of like really popping TV chefs then,
(11:00):
and we've had some of them on the podcast. Was anyone, though,
I can't remember, was anyone doing reality the way you
were doing it with the restaurant.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Well, certainly Mark Burnett was. He was producing, you know,
the two biggest realities goes out there at the time.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yep. But certainly there were no restaurants.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
That's what I mean. There no other chef was like
opening a restaurant on camera, sharing you know, it's staff
on camera.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I think I think maybe Gordon was doing something called
boiling Foyt. I can't remember that was before or after,
but it was sort of a reality kind of take
on running a restaurant. I don't remember it was opening
a restaurant or not, but no, I think that was
a pretty original idea by Mark Burnett, and you know,
first of its kind, it was. It turned into what
(11:49):
everybody seemed to have learned, including NBCs, is that without
a format, it can, you know, it can get a
little unmanageable.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
So it turned into Top Chef.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Is far as I understand the story that Top Chef
is the result of understanding wow, TV can play on
network television, but I think we need a form, pat
So it isn't you know, shooting eighty to one and
spending gazillions. I can only imagine what they spent back then,
because your cameras were expensive back then, remember when cameras
were right right, You may not remember, you might, I do,
(12:21):
I'll be too young for that, but cameras were very
expensive back then, and people holding cameras were very expensive.
Now it all seems so inexpensive and easy to do now,
right well, and it's.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
The least of our concerns right now in TV. But
you're right, because the food the Food Network's so different
now and it's it's like mostly competition shows, which are
super fun and I watch them, but like the cooking
shows are are few and far between, and I know
a lot of chefs complain like there's nowhere to just
go and watch really good yeah cooking and some of
(12:52):
the food destination shows, which I were like, were some
of my favorite.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I mean, I think all the food shows have gone
from eighty percent you know, cra in culinary arts, twenty
percent personality to the flip you know, to eighty percent
personalities riven in twenty percent culinary arts and cuisine.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing?
Where do you put that?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I don't know. I know it seems to be what
people want.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I guess people are watching that what I am noticing
those If you look at what's happening in social media,
you know, YouTube, long form, short form, ig TikTok, there's
a lot of serious chefs on those channels, yeah, cooking
real foods. So I'm I'm so confused, and I really
don't have the data you might because you're in the
business every day.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I don't know what ultimately works.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
I see the numbers of views on social media, and
I know some of those views are much higher than
what you know network television is getting.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So who knows? Who knows? Do you know?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
No, we're your boss?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Does that CNN tell you this stuff there? No?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I mean no, We're all trying to figure this exact
thing out, like how are we competing with social media
and and streamers and everyone's cord cutting? And then layered
on top for us is the political aspect? Do we
navigate all of that? So no, everyone's trying to figure
this out, and it's a crazy time.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Can I go back and touch on something that you
said earlier?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Please, sorry to interrupt. You mentioned ability to speak on TV.
So there was a whole generation of us that had
no ability to speak on TV or even go out
into a dining room and say LO to a customer.
And so for that generation, there was this media training duo,
a husband and her wife team that were assigned to
(14:29):
each of us, and we all had to go through
this like pretty rigorous training considering you know how long
it took to get comfortable in front of a camera
back then. Now, I feel like you were just raised
in an environment where you're always on camera. So there
is no more that there's no more being uncomfortable from
the camera because everyone's always on camera, right. Yeah, So
there's lou Ekis and his wife media trained every chef
(14:53):
that you know that you think we're good on TV.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
They all started out pretty bad.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
On TV, and him and a wonderful woman named Nancy Banks,
who still teaches acting in LA helped a lot of
chefs get comfortable. It really was an interesting process back then.
But yeah, so I just thought it was funny because
you think that's amazing from your perspective, was a natural talent,
but it wasn't at all.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
So it was cultivated and developed. I mean, if we
have that in my business, I've media trained politicians and okay,
some people media train the media to be better on camera.
We have that too, But that's wild. I had no
idea that that existed. What was media training? What did
it consist of?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
They would wow, so many different things, but most of
it was just, you know, putting you on film and
forcing you to watch it, which you know is complete torture.
I know, are you one of those people that can't
watch yourself on it?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I hate it?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Yeah? Yeah, me too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
So I never watched anything I'm in and they would
force you to do that, and they would just give
you notes and you know, get you to be more comfortable.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And a lot of mock interviews.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Back then, Katie work was the host of The Today Show,
and Nancy would set up a room with you know,
Al and Katie and everyone and the three cameras, you know,
so that it was a replica basically the Today Show set,
and she would play Katie and you know, and I'd
have to do a demo and they'd record the whole
thing and then we'd analyze it all.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Doesn't it sound awful?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
I mean, because it's not my business, it sounds really fine.
But I would I get, Oh yeah, I guess.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Well, let's do it. Let's do it together one day.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Let's let's do a mock Let's do a mock Today
Show interview and then be forced to watch it on
a big screen.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Sounds so much fun, like the best.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I want to talk more about your career, but I
always also like to ask what kind of kid were you?
Talk about who you are as little Roco?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Oh interesting, uh, pretty energy, very curious. I started cooking
very young, so part of my little kid. You know,
Era was cooking and always loved cooking very much. You know,
absolutely captivated me and you know, stole my heart at
a young age, about eleven, I would say. So a
(17:18):
big part of being kidd and growing up was being
being a chef, but very attached.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
To family, very attached to family. I was the kind
of kid that went to Rosary society meetings with my
mom and.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Said the whole entire rosary. Can you imagine ask it
to do that?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Now?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Does anyone even know what a rosary is anymore? I
don't think so, but yeah, I think it's about sixty
Hail Mary's. So we'd stand there and hold a rosary
and every time you said a Hail Mary, you'd move
the bead one step over.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
And you know I would do that with my mom. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I went to Catholic school and I'm Italian.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Oh okay, good, good, okay God.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So you understand I was an altar boy, so, you know,
very sort of pious acting Catholic school kid, but also
very curious and grow in a high energy in a
Jamaica Queen's environment, which is you know, inner city as
it gets and so lots of hyjiinks as well.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
So you knew early and you went to college for hospitality, right, Yeah,
I knew really early.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I went to both cooking school and then management school
for hospitality. So I went to the CIA and then
Boston University.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And I'm wondering, would you tell an aspiring chef today,
go to college, go to culinary school, or just start
in a restaurant. What would you say?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Watch YouTube? Watch from YouTube. Yeah, you can learn everything
that I begged people to teach me on YouTube. Now,
there was I did a cooking competition on NBC not
too long ago, and my competitor was a fourteen year
old kid and he was making ice cream in a
kitchen aid with dry ice and you know, and like
(18:56):
employing eighteen different molecular strategies that you would have had
to you know, live in Spain for six years and
begged for an Adrea to teach you, you know, these
these skills. Yeah, back then.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I'm not that long ago, not that long, only twenty
twenty five years ago. So you can learn everything you
need to learn on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
And then of course you need to go work in
a restaurant and get some practical skills. I don't I'm
not sure that you need to go to culinary school anymore,
although I.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Think it's a great thing to do, and it was
great for me. And it's a lot of education compressed
in a very small amount of time. So that's also good,
especially for chefs who want to really get out there
and cook. But you know, get a degree in finance,
get into pe, make a fortune, and then go learn
how to cook, and retire, i'd say, or some order.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
That's probably the best way to do this career at
this point.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, good advice. Right, So you're I think you're like
thirty one when you open your first restaurant. Is that right?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Sounds about right? Yeah, Well, how much.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Didn't you know when you open your first restaurant? How much?
Looking back now, how much didn't you know?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I feel like, since you're in television, you probably relate
to this. But we wake up, chefs wake up every
day feeling like we don't know anything. So the restaurant
business is, you know, it's that it's that friend, that
person you're in love with that you're chasing your whole life,
you know, trying to figure out what is gonna what's
what's it going to take today? This week to get
(20:22):
them to pay attention to me. It's, you know, a
complicated business that's super dynamic, always changing. So you know,
I didn't know a lot then. I don't feel like
I know a lot today. You know, I think a
lot of it is instinct and guesswork, and we enjoy
that obviously, you know, not.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Uh it not being entirely data.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Driven is kind of fun sometimes because for a creative
that's fun. We use a lot more data today than
we ever have. We have, you know, all kinds of
information broken down to very granular levels now on apps
on our phone, something we didn't have then when I
opened my first restaurant. So we get to make a
lot more informed decisions. We get to see people canceling
(21:07):
their reservation when they cancel it in real time now, right,
we couldn't do back then. This is one of those
businesses where and again I think it's a lot like
television where you just never really know enough. Yeah, and
there's no way to ever know f there's just no
way to master this well.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And it's changing so quickly, whether it's the technology or
the medium or the interactive experience, like it's always changing.
And so yeah, I totally get what you're saying. You're
always just trying to keep up and future proof and
predict the next thing totally exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And the chefs who have you know, quote unquote mastered
it have always if you look at all of them,
like I'll mention one of the Daniells again, him and
so many like him, have been smart enough to find
a partner very early on, you know, very early in
their career that they have been with for twenty thirty years,
(21:58):
that have supported them thick and thin, through recessions and
nine to eleven's and everything else, realizing that over time
this will be a very fruitful endeavor, this will be
you know, a profitable experience, but it won't be today,
it won't be next week, you know, necessarily. And those
those other chefs who I think have you know, huge
(22:21):
restaurant empires now that seem very comfortable, and there's in
their settings, in their spaces and Danielle's you know, really
good example. Nobu obviously another great example, uh with a
you know, very famous partner who who discovered and stuck
by him all these years. So the one thing I've
learned is that you know, enduring partnership is always a
(22:42):
good way to go.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I've asked ming Sivas the Bear do you watch? Does
it actually capture opening and running a restaurant in the
big city?
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Oh? Well, I think it does quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, I think The Bear is a really good portrayal
of how things work in a restaurant. I think the characters, uh,
in many cases are very similar to real life chef characters.
You know, the angst and the psychological stuff and uh,
(23:14):
the you know, desperation for excellence and the self doubt,
you know, all that is pretty pretty spot on. Also,
the the extreme humanity and pure love and joy that
exists in their hearts is is spot on too. And
that certainly that the difficulty of you know, opening and
running places is captured pretty well. There almost is never
(23:36):
a situation where you open cans of tomatoes and find money,
though in real life that would be, you know, something
that would be pretty wonderful. It would have to be
a couple of million dollars now, but you know, uh
Ki Krmi did well with the what was it.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Two hundred grand? One hundred grand?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
But I like that there's you know, fictionalized versions of
what we do now, not just the reality stuff and
not just the competition team, because I think it's a
very rich world with rich characters and you know, yes,
lots of emotional content. It's it's it's it's perfect for
dramatized advertising.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah, what's your favorite, what's like the best movie about food?
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Oh, It's a Big Night, that's my favorite. Big Night. Yeah.
I mean, isn't it Isn't it just perfect?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It is perfection. I saw it with my mom when
I was like fifteen, at like a little movie theater
in Boston, and I was like, oh my god, this
is so good.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, think about it. I mean they're two very passionate people.
They're immigrants there. You know, the restaurant is going to
be their salvation, right, They're they're hoping for this guy
to come in and make them, you know, important and relevant.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
They love to cook, they love to serve. I mean,
it's just beautiful.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
It's perfect, such a perfect little snapshot of what things
are like in our world.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
It's so good and in a very similar and yet
disimilar way Stick Pizza, which is not really a food movie,
but still that sort of beside story of waiting for
the restaurant critic to come in and make this little
mom and pop pizza shot famous. Like it was such
a nice nostalgic, you know, way of showing that I
(25:19):
love those, I can really relate to those.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I pitched one, a mockumentary of the food world to
the waiting for Guffvin people, Yes years ago.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Don't you think it's time for something like that? Yes? Yeah,
wouldn't that be great? Waiting for How have they not
done that?
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Right? They did dog shows?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I know you've done everything, folks.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Singing, oh my gosh, and so what happened? Where'd that go?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Nowhere?
Speaker 1 (25:44):
I just you know nowhere, Like you know how it is.
You got to keep pushing. I stopped pushing that.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I do have to, I do how it is. I
was pushing a mockumentary about the news for a while too,
and you know, I'll circle back around to it at
some point, but you got to give it some space.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
And yeah, you know, you got to speak to David
what's his name? You gotta you got to meet him somewhere.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Who's David what's his name?
Speaker 1 (26:08):
The guy who produced and directed all those spinals happed
all the way through.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
To I only know like Christopher Guest is christ is
that who? Yeah, that is number Rock.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
I would call him, but I gotta find Christopher guests
now him down and talk to him.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
We both do, We both do. We have two projects
for him, you know, speaking about TV and I. I
come from experience with this. There is a downside to
putting your real self on TV. What kinds of things
did you experience that you know you could have lived.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Without people noticing that I've gotten fat recently? Not a
great not one of those downside moments. Uh, yeah, let's
see what else? Every time I post a video, someone
has to remind me, Like, I'm pretty aware of that.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
You know, I feel bad enough as it is. It's crazy, right, people.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Just pointing out every little, every little imperfection about your
life and your appearance and your hair and your teeth.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Oh, totally. Yeah, it's not fun. That is not fun.
It comes with it, but it's not fun.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
There was, uh a couple of times where you know,
fiction and reality crossed each other's paths and created some
trouble for me that would have been totally avoidable had
I had not been on television.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
You know, where one one path and.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
The other they fed each other and fiction became reality
and you know that kind of thing. Those moments are
a little are interesting. The thing about reality TV and
restaurants is people can come in, you know, to your
space while you're there working. So there's that additional.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Layer of right, you know, invasion, just the word invasion, Yeah,
that's the word. That's one of the words. Yeah, scarcity
of privacy.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, yeah, because people, whether you're anti v or not,
you become a well known chef. People can come into
your restaurant, right, which you want. But of course sure
there are some folks you would not want, and you
don't get to say who comes in and who doesn't.
You know, you don't always know. Yeah, I would imagine
that could feel a little scary sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah, I mean it's especially when there's you know, eighteen
camera crews shooting everything and turning into you know, the
next episode. But I do want to say that and
people know that, you know, it's mostly upside. It's it's
incredibly better than I imagine as a kid, when I was
a kid imagining being chef, I really could never have
(28:40):
been envisioned any of this happening, and I'm thrilled that
it happens. So yeah, there's a little little bit of,
you know, some price to pay for losing privacy, but
you know, if it's okay in the end, it's very,
very worth it.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
The fact that we get people to appreciate what we.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Do on a level that we do, it's just incredible,
Really is incredible, and I don't think anybody should lose sight
of that, especially those of us who remember what it
was like when we were still in the dark ages,
you know, when we were in the back and no
one knew who we were and we toiled away in anonymity. Anonymity, yes,
for decades. It's definitely a lot better than that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Do you think about having to stay relevant and whether
that's on TV or just in food, do you feel
like that's something you have to keep constantly doing? Stay relevant?
Speaker 3 (29:45):
You know?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I feel that way in my business. I have to,
you know, not only keep on top of the news
and have something to say about it, but I have
to keep presenting my reason for being here, you know.
And I'm wondering if you you guys as celebrity chefs,
feel that way too.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I think we probably don't. I probably don't think about
it enough. I probably should think about it more. I
keep believing that this food and good food and creating
good stuff, whether it's in your restaurant or outside of
your restaurant, is a form of relevance. But when you
look at food TV today, I think having a background
(30:25):
in gymnastics may be useful, so, you know, being able
to run around and overcome all kinds of physical challenges
cook in a very short timeline seems to be a
very helpful skill. So maybe I should have put a
little more time into that kind of ninja competition stuff
as a kid courses. Yeah, yeah, I probably should have
done the ABC Ninja show next, right, and then I
(30:47):
could have brought it all together and made like One Us, Yeah,
a big, beautiful competition reality show. But I don't think
about it enough. I'm gonna just say I don't think
about it enough. I think I need to think about
it more. And clearly, the types of people who are
becoming chefs have changed, and so there probably is a
new type of, you know, ideal chef personality that I'm
(31:11):
sure we will all be replaced with soon.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeesh, bleak. But I totally relate, and we talk a
lot on this show about career arcs because at a
certain age, you're no longer at the beginning of your career.
Maybe you're not even in the middle of your career,
and that can be hard to navigate psychologically and emotionally,
and so we talk about that. We talk about mental
health a lot on the show. I'm wondering what you
(31:33):
would say, What stage of your career are you in
right now?
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I am approaching the memoir stage of my career. I think,
love it.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah, I'm in the extended version of my career. But
here's the thing about chefs and why we're different. We
cook till the day we die. We never stop cooking.
Our career and our work are basically the same thing.
So we don't have our work that we do every
day and then think of our career is the separature.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
You know. It's like I wake up and I cook eggs,
and that's my.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Career and my work and my job and my love
and my joy.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
So yeah, it's all wrapped up in one wonderful thing.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
And it would be really weird if I got up
and no one was paying me, but I got up
and just like did the news in my bedroom, Like
that'd be weird. You're right, that's a different. You get
to do yours as long as you want.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
I think that would be fun.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
But yeah, the chefs are different, right because we get
to do what we love every day, and if we're lucky,
we get paid for it. And I really hope that
the newer chefs feel that joy from cooking too, because
there are many times where you know, the career part
of it or the media part of it are not
going to be a you know, not going to be there,
and you have to love the work and the craft
itself has to deliver a lot of joy to your
(32:47):
body every day. And I still get Goose Holmes cooking. Still,
I still feel tremendous joy when I make something that
comes out well. And when I call my farmer friend
Hank and he picks tomatoes from me, it's a pinnacle
life moment.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
So the career part is an interesting conversation, but it's
not something.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I'm dwelling on or worry about, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I want to just keep cooking and whether that brings
me benefits in the new type of chef career that
exists now that didn't exist when I was a kid,
when chefs were not in the media and didn't write
books and didn't have, you know, six hundred projects working
at the same time, and didn't have restaurants in Saudi
Arabia and Japan, you know, when my life was simpler.
(33:30):
So I can always go back to that very simple
chef life and be very happy.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
So I'm not sure if that answers your question. But
you know, obviously I'm in.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
The later stages of my career, and whenever I worry
about it and I think about what that means, I
find immediate and deep comfort with the fact that I
can just do what I love to do, and that.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Is my career. So I love that.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
That's a very cool place to be, you know, a
very poor part of what's different about chefs.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Well, I love that, and I haven't thought of it
like that. I you know, I had an actor on
a couple of weeks ago, and I, you know, asked
a similar question. He said, you know, I'm sixty five
and I feel like I'm just getting started, like I'm
just getting good at this, and he'd been doing it
for yeah, forty years, So you just never know. And I,
you know, it brings up a lot of it can
(34:18):
bring up a lot of feelings. Uh sure, Yeah, you know, disorientation.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
And I talk about this with my therapist, just like
you know, I'm sure your actor friend did.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
It's definitely a topic.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
But I think if you're lucky enough to have the
craft embedded into your career. Yeah, you know, this actor
friend of yours can go do you know? One man
shows in Broadway and off Broadway, and.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
That's what he's say.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
You can stand up in front of a craft and
deliver I'm hoolou and feel pretty good about his career.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Right, Yeah, that's exactly what he said. He loves doing
it so much. The accolades, the money, the fan like,
that's so secondary and I completely understand that.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
And I do understand what your friend is saying because
acting and cooking are similar in that you need many,
many years of experience to truly truly understand what you're doing. Yeah,
there are days, you know, very recently where I feel
like I could finally say, wow, I've really learned a lot.
I can look at almost any ingredient and know what
to do. And you know that's after thirty years of cooking.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
So you mentioned therapy. I talk about therapy all the
time too, because it's been.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Big fan, big fan, Oh, me too, there's a therapy
more me or you. Let's guess.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I mean I live for therapy. Therapy saved my life. Yes,
it's still saving my life every week.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
You know, it's the best thing ever can we do?
If I've been a rant on therapy?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, go, So that's the best part of therapy.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Well, the fact that there is a person who is
trained to listen, understand help that doesn't have a personal agenda,
that is enmeshed with your life.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Think about that.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
There is no one in your life you're not your mom,
not your dad, not your significant other, your best friend
that won't have a personal agenda because of how their
lives intertwined with their lives. So you'll never get objective, fully,
you know, properly objective feedback. Even a therapist has a
little bit of an agenda and they're human and they can't,
you know, help but to not be one hundred percent
(36:10):
objective all the time. But you know, your friend, your mom,
and your dad are always going to be subjective, and
you need objective advice. You need people in your life
who are trained, first of all, you know, smart of course,
who have experienced, who understand, who have seen a lot
of people go through what you go through. Those are
the people who were really qualified to help you get
through these situations, and there's still stigma. What's up with
(36:32):
the stigma, guys? I mean the therapists in second grade.
I shed the stigma like in the seventies, and you know,
figured out that it wasn't worth worrying about. You know,
I didn't know I was in therapy until I went
to college.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
What'd you think you were doing?
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I thought I was going to playgroup. Nice.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I thought it was playgroup, yeah, because because it started
out with a bunch of kids playing in a room
separate from the classroom, and then eventually it was just
me playing in a room separate from the classroom. And
then eventually there was no playing, it was just talking.
And I didn't realize that, you know, had gone from
basically a kid's playgroup to you know, real proper therapy
until I went to college and they said, are you
(37:09):
in therapy? And I said no, And they said, well,
we're looking at your records and it says you've been
a therapy since nineteen seventy something.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
It was like, oh, that's what that was. Okay, Yeah,
so I guess I've been a therapy anyway.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I really enjoy I look forward to talking to my therapists.
And if you're a person out there who's thinking maybe
a therapist can help me, absolutely they can help you,
you know, And it takes time to find the right person.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
You go through a few people.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
And that's okay, and that's okay, and you can take
breaks and you can you can do it five days
a week if you want, once a month, once a
year anyway.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Absolutely, And I appreciate.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
My endorsement for therapy. The profession is over. No.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
I appreciate that because it's important to me my mantra
as always, when you talk about mental health, it makes
it easier to talk about mental health. And that's the
whole point that, you know, to end the stigma and
the silence and make it a nat thing to start
sentences with. Well, my therapist was saying, right like, that's
what I want. I just want to normalize it to
(38:06):
the point where it yet we don't even have to
talk about mental health as its own category. It's just
you're talking about the shit you're going through in very real,
practical ways because we're all going through something. I don't
know anyone who's not going through something and so you know,
either you're dealing with it, working on it, getting help,
(38:27):
you know, doing the things, or you're ignoring it. And
we all know how that's going to end when you
ignore it.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Yeah, and it really works.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
You know, there's training that occurs in therapy that helps
you recognize patterns, impulse, you know, just things that you
don't realize you're doing that you can train yourself to
stop doing. There are things that you need to be
doing more of that you can train yourself to be
doing more of.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
It is very effective, is very effective. So my first
form of therapy was cooking because you know, cooking really
captures your entire attention. You have to be ultra focused
and so less opportunity to get into the trouble. And
then then of course proper therapy with real PhDs you know,
took over and end helped a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
It's a real thing. I know in some people's mind,
especially people of a generation, they think it's like huy
and fake and made up. No, it's a real thing.
It's a science. And you will be amazed at when,
like when you say something, they'll be like, I know
what that is. That's a thing, and let me explain
where that's coming from, and all the things will click
and you'll be I mean, you just feel so much
(39:30):
less alone when something has a name and then a
reason behind you to diagnosed, and here's how to get
out of doing that. It's so great that such a relief.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Before we get to a lightning round, I've got one
more question.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Oh there's a lightning round.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
No one told me about the lightning round, Derek, there's
a lightning round. There was no lightning round mentioned in
my emails, Lauren.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Sorry, we spring it on you. We spring it on you. No,
it's easy and fun. But before I just have one
more question about the Hantons. What's going on in the Hamptons.
I am hearing about these market wars, these like high
and grocery store wars that are like taking over the Hamptons.
Is that what is happening right now?
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Oh? Yeah, they're you know, the Sagaponic General Store is
totally taking over the Hamptons.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I don't think anything is happening in the Hampton is.
Most people are asleep out here. There's nothing happening out here.
It's a very sleepy part of the world. There's a
little bit of nightlife. There's a few restaurants, and you know,
most of the time people are home lounging, lounging in
a chair, you know, trying to get some a little
sun tam. But there are you know, high end general
(40:34):
stores and you know stores that sell gems and jellies
and farm stands, and they've become you know, super high end,
and I think those that's it. That's it, that's all
that's happening. There's nothing, there's no nothing more than that.
I am running a pop up out here though, called
pop Up by Rocco. So yes, if if this happens
(40:54):
to make it to air or whatever you call it
in this podcast world these days, I don't know anym
or before the podcast is over, I'd love for people to.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Come come on in. When can they come in in Southampton?
Where in Southampton? I make really good food. I'm on
the line cooking every night. It's great. I love it.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
But when can they come in? How long is the
pop up?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Oh? Oh, it's don until Labor Day?
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Perfect? Perfect? Everybody?
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Well are you coming in and bring Derek and Lauren?
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I will come in.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
That would be good. Do you get out here. I do.
I do.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
I have friends in East Hampton, so I'm out there.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Great.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, So on the way to east, make a pit
stop in South Set around six o'clock.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Okay, okay, perfect, maybe I'll finally get to see you.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Yeah, would be great, would be great.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Okay, here's the lightning round.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Lightning rounds frighten me. They always have, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
People say that, I don't know why. This is the
easiest part of the podcast. Okay, Manhattan or New England
clam chowder?
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Obviously New England clam chowder for all the right reasons.
It's a lot better correct answer.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
What's the best way to make and eat a lobster roll?
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I think?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
I think I'm not from Maine, so lobsteroll is in
my backyard, but I think it's all butter and it's
lobster claws only. Is the way to do it with
a split top? Butnt I think that's the way.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I'm As a New Englander, I will sanction this answer, right, Okay?
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Great?
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah? Are you allowed to put grated cheese on pasta
with shellfish?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
You're that's a terrible question.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
You know you're not, But it's sometimes I know that
you know you're not, But sometimes it tastes good.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
Don't tell you sometimes you must. Don't tell anyone I
said it tastes good sometimes.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yeah, I feel the same way when I'm having lights,
but it's not allowed pasta and clams like sometimes I
want a.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Little, a little at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Parmagen reggiano is you know, msg and salt and a
little bit of dairy flavor.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
And that works on seafood, you know, So.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
It really does, especially like a diavolo where it's spicy
that the cheese can cool it down.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
I think spicy needs palm for sure. For sure, I.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Would say in general it works against the seafood. But
there are exceptions, and you know, one of them is
a dish I make with saffron and shrimp that should
technically not need parm but is so much better with palm.
So I'll make it for you if you come out here,
we'll do it all.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Ok Uh.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
French or Italian?
Speaker 3 (43:31):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Okay, So that's a tough one because they're both great.
And why is this Spanish added to those?
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Because France, Spain and Italy I think are in this
eternal competition for who's the greatest makes the greatest food,
lives the greatest lifestyle. And it's a tough one because
they're all really good. They all have tremendous food culture.
So I'm going to say that's a three way tie.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I like the addition of Spain because you're right.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Just think Harmoni, Baric Go and like just that alone
and they olive.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
I went to c Comroca, Oh my god, and Girona
so incredible, incredible life changing.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Too much, right, it's too much, right, I know it's
too much. But the line.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Little mollusks urchin and then they bring out all the
little candies at the Oh my god, it's just too much.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
And how about those people, they're pretty sexy.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
I gotta say, incredible, incredible people. Yeah, what's the thing
you never.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Eat almost never eat fast food, never eat fast food?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Okay, yeah, it's a good one. What's the thing we
should all be eating more.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Of tomatoes right now? Is should be eating tomatoes like crazy.
They are like God's handiwork at this moment, and they're
just perfect, and they they spark everything in your brain
and body and.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Make you feel everything. They're wonderful.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Love that a while Ago I wrote along a piece
about Rhode Island Kalamari and the there's a thing called
the Klamari index, which was a unit of measurement in
the New York Times that would sort of measure how
quickly a food item became suddenly ubiquitous. So, you know,
they had the Calamari index for like pesto and quinwa.
(45:19):
What is the item right now that would have the
highest Klamari Index rating?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Oh? Good question. Is it maybe ramen everywhere popping up everywhere?
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, in Western restaurants and Eastern restaurants, ramen everything.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
That's a great answer. That's a great answer, And you're
so right. It's because it's it's everywhere, and people are
making it like high end, they're making it street food.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
Yeah, they're turning it into other dishes. They're re engineering
dishes to include ramen.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Many people are just focused on actual original ramen, which
is great too.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty ubiquitous.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
I would says that the very what's is it a
ten on the culinary in this or what's the index
from one to one hundred?
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Ye to I think okay, so it's it's a nine.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, that's a great answer. This is the final question.
It's really important to me. When is iced coffee season.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Okay, so.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
One thing I learned from my Italian relatives is the
appreciation of coffee. And there's a coffee for every moment,
every hour of the day, every day part. And there's
something called a sheikirato, which is espresso and ice shaken
until it's foamy. And it seems to me like there
(46:37):
is no bad time for that. But the best time
for that is an after end of afternoon sunny period. Yes,
where you've like made it to the end of the
day and you're tired and a little sweaty and you
need a refreshment, and that is around three o'clock in Italy.
I love that the espresso shekirato.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I love that it's so good to help you get
through your latini.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Yeah, it's a little bit like the precursors to the fastage.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Would I be ridiculed for ordering decaf coffee in Italy?
Speaker 3 (47:11):
I don't think they'd have it. I don't think. Yes,
probably would be some ridicule.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yep, I assumed as much.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Well, I really I've never heard of it, and I'm
sure it's there somewhere, but.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
No, I suspect this is true. I grew up. I've
been drinking dunkin Donuts coffee since I was a child.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
And oh, so you really are from New England.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I am, and I'm Italian, and so like, coffee is
a very big part of who I am.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
Copp is Italian.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
No I just being being Italian. Coffee is a big
part of who I am. And all the coffee you know,
history and the regimens, the routines and when you drink
this one and when you drink that one, like it's
I get it. But recently, I think because of perry menopause,
I had to switch to decaf. I'm very ashamed of it.
It's something I don't talk about a lot. I haven't.
(47:56):
You know, I'm not completely okay with it personally, But
this is where I am. And so I've been wondering
if when I travel overseas to places like Italy, if
I were your own calf, would I be deported?
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Definitely not deported. You know those Italians they're too lazy
to take a seriously.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
But you might have to ask. In a few different places,
you might have to bring your own. It might be
one of those situations where you need to bring your.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Own coffee to Italy. Oh my god, Okay, I think
I'll suffer through the caffeine when I go back to
Italy rather than that.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
It Is it one of those situations where when you
have it in Italy it's better, or because I've I've
found that with many things that people complain about, dairy allergies,
gluten analogies, they always sell, but when I'm in Italy
it's never a problem. I don't know what the difference
is and is it one of those situations it yet I.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Haven't tested it because this is just in the past
I'd say six months, So I will test it when
I go back because of travel quite a bit, and
I'm hoping that's the case. I'm hoping that when I'm there,
like you know, I don't get hungover when I'm overseas
right as much, I think, because it's like mineral.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
Walking glut and you can eat dairy.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
I'm gonna also guess that one espresso in Italy contains
about a twentieth of the amount of caffeine than a
full Duncan does, probably a full cup of Duncan, because
those are those are big.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
They are there an American size. Yeah, yes, well, rock
O DeSpirito. This was so fun and I learned so
much and it was just great to talk to you.
And I will see you out in the Hamptons, I.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Hope, so I really do, please come, seriously, it would
be great. It would be great.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
Next week on Off the Cup, I sit down and
talk to Sheena she author of My Good Side. I
am so thankful that I've had the platform of reality
TV to share my personal story, because that's not something
you get with acting. Off the Cup is a production
of iHeart Podcasts as part of the Reason Choice Network.
(49:55):
If you want more, check out the other Reason Choice podcasts, Politics,
Jamel Hill, and Native Land Pod. For Off the Cup,
I am your host, Se Cup. Editing and sound design
by Derek Clements. Our executive producers are me Se Cup,
Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and review wherever you
get your podcasts, Follow or subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday.
Host
S.E. Cupp
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