June 21, 2023 • 45 mins
Dahlia Wilde and her Wonder Dog arrive at the LARGE HADRON COLLIDER.
Dahlia connects with her amazing CERN Mentor - Dr. Mark Kruse, and one of his wonderful CERN colleagues - Dr. Florencia Canelli, from University of Zurich.
Please follow me at @DahliaWildeOfficial
The "OH MY GOD PARTICLE SHOW!" is Executive Produced by Dahlia Wilde and iHEART Media and is a part of the Seneca Podcast Network.
Audio Design by Paul Mercier.
Music by Ivo Moring.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome van kommen yin venido yvenu benvenutiaduti. Welcome one and all,
Thank you for joining me. I'm Gallia Wild and this
is the Oh My God Particle Show where we talk
about science and art and music and good good good
vibrations and all matters near and far. So ready or not,
(00:33):
unpack your imaginations and get ready to rumble through the
universe that we are so so lucky to live in.
We are the stars.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Caution.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
A sub atomic adhesive holds the fundamental constituents of this
podcast together. Since the exact nature of this clue is
not yet fully comprehended, its adhesive power cannot be guaranteed.
To date, no, no malfunction of the podcast or ensuing
injury has resulted from adhesive failure.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Bojo mojo, mis me coumosaba. Hi. Hello, I'm Dahlia Wild
and this is my co host Higgs Boson, Wonderdog. Welcome
to the Oh My God Particle Show, and you are
so welcome. JAVOUZEMPLEI. I hope you're all doing really well.
(01:25):
Me and Higgs Boson, we're just rocking it. We're on
the way to CERN, which is located at the gorgeous
border of France and Switzerland. Luckily, my excellent Kiwi mentor
from the Large Hadron Collider, doctor Mark Cruz. He introduced
me to his former student and now his super brilliant colleague,
doctor Florencia Canelli. The two of these scientific wizards are
(01:49):
gonna explain a lot of things to us today on
our show, so we can get some extra brain cells
before we actually get there. Flarencia Pinelli is a really
cool scientist. She's originally from Paraguay. Her father was a
car mechanic, so she started having a lot of curiosity
(02:09):
about how stump works from a really young age. And
now she's a professor at the physic Institute of the
University of Zurich, who lots a great chocolate there. I bet.
Her research consists of studying the structure of matter, energy,
space and time at the highest energies possible to understand
the fundamental nature of our universe. Her current research is
(02:32):
at the CMS experiment at the Large Hadron Collider. Why
don't we just call it the LHC from now on, okay.
Compact Muon Solenoid or CMS, is a detector at the
LHC keep listening for a pop quiz, So I welcome
bother you. Everyone. Listeners do to help me focus what's about.
(02:54):
But it's important to me to help especially girls and
women know that it's okay, that is natural to be
a scientist, to give them permission to examine the universe,
to put their theories forward, and also that science could
be very cool. And I kind of want to dismantle
the geek feeling of women in science because I'm really interested.
(03:16):
How did you get into particle physics, Like who mentored
you and what did you do when you ran into
challenges or how from a young age did you feel
like it was okay to do particle physics.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Okay, so that's that's like a foreign one question.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
So yes, so it is the first one is a
long question, is a long answer, So because I don't know,
and that's probably the short answer.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It's not that.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
I mean, I can give you kinds and I have
hints on what happens on how people make decisions and
end up in certain places, but I never, for sure
never had a plan to become a scientist or.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
A physicist or a particle physisist.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
And I know that when I was little had me
little in elementary school, I had some affinity to do
anything that that had you know, science in it, because
it was I was curious.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I know that. I know that my father is a
car mechanic, so I had a lot of.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Visual experience on how to put things together and disassemble them.
And I have seen him work with his hands and
machines all my life, so that I had affinity, or at.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Least I wasn't scared of that.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Now. I was raised in a very small country in Paraguay,
and that there's not much science even till today in
in in Paraguay, and so is there's nothing that I
you know, I mean science for me was kind of
you know, out of I mean from an universe really,
(04:53):
so it wasn't something that I've seen. I knew that
I had a lot of questions, and then I knew
that in the school, you know, I I wasn't getting
enough answers. Now when the high school. During high school,
essentially I lost all my interest in learning match I
mean I was okay, but I mean it was not
(05:14):
really I don't know, maybe it was being a teenager
or what, but I was not very happy with the school.
So I wasn't sure what I was going to do.
Then it happened that I went for my parents because
they knew that I had no clue what I wanted
to do, and they didn't.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Both of them didn't go to college. They were working.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Class people, masters and my father is a mechanic, and
they also didn't know what to advise, and they had
the great idea to send me to a high school
the last three months, the three months of the high
school to the US in an exchange program, and.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
In there I was the host. Parents that I was
living with.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Took me on a tour of some universities and there
I took a lot of.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Prosures of like what careers, what careers exist?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
And I figured out I came back to the two
part of way, and when I came back, I thought, Okay,
I think I.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Know what I want to do.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
I think, you know, something related to engineering. It would
be the right thing for me, and I went back.
When I went back, I went to enrolled to the university,
very happy that I made my decision. And when I
went to the university, they told me, well, the registration
closed six months ago.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
You know, you have to wait a year to start.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
But the secretary said, well, but you could enroll in science,
do one year and then transfer here because there are
a lot of classes that are common.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Then that's what I did.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It was in a completely different building, and and I
enrolled in science and in science and then the and
I said what is the most similar and they said physics.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
So I said okay.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
So unfortunately at that stage what happened was that physics
was opened. But then they had in a month they
were had they would have they were going to have the.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Exams to to the entrance exams.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
So I had to prepare in a month all the
high school that I didn't I barely study in high
school in a month, take all the exams, passed them
to be able to get in. So yes and that,
and then as soon as I was in, I think
six months into it, I thought, this is great, this
is this is what I wanted. I had a lot
of science and a lot of books that were super interesting,
(07:53):
and I never looked back.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Were you on my child?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
No, well kind of. My sister is ten years younger,
so kind of yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
How smart of your parents, how cool to be a
car mechanic, and how smart of them to encourage you,
and I love that on these journeys there's always like
an angel who you know, the secretary, the parents, there's
some person the mark cruises of the world, who you know,
help you stay on the path. And when you went
then into that physics program, were you the only girl
(08:24):
there or were there other girls?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Well, so, okay, so now we.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Are in Paraguay there, so it's not it's not that
the physics is I mean, physics essentially is a study
to teach. So there were probably fifty percent female and
fifty percent male, I think, so it's not a scientific
it's not a research career. There is mainly to teach,
(08:51):
and that there's the fraction of female male is is
more balanced there. So I never noticed that that was
That was the other saying that because I did there
three years before going to Argentina to finish. At that point,
I never even think about gender and balance or never
(09:13):
crossed my mind that because everything was, I mean, doing
science in Paraguay is already quite different. So I never
thought that being a female. I never crossed my mind
actually that being a female was going to be different
or that it.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Wasn't for female science.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
It never I don't know it never occurred to me
at that stage, which brings me to a funny story
because the first time I remember someone asking me how
is to be a female in science?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Was at Mark's wedding.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
That was the first time. So this is at the
beginning of my PhD. And I remember maybe a year
or two someone in a table that is full of
people of non scientists, saying in how is it to
be a female in science?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
And it's different?
Speaker 4 (10:06):
And then and I remember asked when they asked that question, everything,
all my memories collapsed and and I realized, oh, there
are not so many of me for the first time
when someone asked the question, because I was completely kind
of clue at that point, and I had to come
up with an answer, which I still don't know the
(10:27):
answer right away, and I said, only no, it is
it is good, it's great.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I don't see any issues.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
And I still remember that because I remember if I
could go back in time, I probably will change that answer,
but it got stuck in my head because it's like yes,
because it was the first time that I realized that, yes,
there were not that many females and I didn't have
that many examples, and that I was just kind of
(10:55):
probably you know, consciously not paying attention to that, because
then I would realize probably or at some level not.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
But it's probably better because that's what I'm hoping. It'll
just become so natural that it won't be a thing,
you know, just that we're all my The concept of my,
oh my God particles show the play is that if
we're all made of the God particles, we're all made
of the same stuff. Like can we just get along
and hopefully it all you know, a line where we're
(11:23):
all just working together, no one cares what you are.
But where was the wedding? Was it in Rochester or
Duke or New Zealand?
Speaker 5 (11:31):
Chicago?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
And so what were you guys? What were you doing
up there? Mark at the Fermi Lab?
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Well? I well, I was a postdoc at the time,
so in fact, yeah, I was a great student at
Family Lab. I was a question at Purdue University in fact,
which isn't too far from Chicago, so I didn't spend
much time at Purdue, but I did all my research
up in Chicago. And then I was a post off
with Rochester where Fluencia was a student.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
And you were blown away hot alliant. She was that's
what I love best about you, Mark, So you just
is so inspiring and I love how you say they're
not them.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
But that's really interesting what for instance being natural, because
it was probably just because it was natural, it's it
probably helped, right in some sense.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I mean, or Dahlia say, naive.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Is a good way, in a good way, because no, no, no,
not but in a good way. I mean, I think,
I think, I I that protects protects you from continue
moving forward, right, you are not distracted by by by
the stones on the in the road. In some ways,
you just continue you don't see them. So I think
in some ways that was okay at that time to
(12:40):
to to not see I did start seeing them as
a postal later and that that was more more more
of an issue.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
I was much more aware of that.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
And then you work to not get bitter by or
cynical about about certain things that you see.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
So so then there.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Is some some energy you put into it, like okay,
you know, let's see the big goal here and not
get distracted by it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Oh that's so good. That a good message, I know.
And to not quit because I think so When I
was a biologist, my brother's a physicist. Father was a doctor.
But I was thinking out, how lucky are the women
who know how to keep going? Because I didn't feel
welcome where I was in science fairs, I would meet
a lot of unusual scientists who were doing more than
(13:30):
just judging the science. How can we say it that way?
And I also felt lonely in the laboratory. I didn't
I felt like I had things to say and I
wanted this colorful, you know life that was very interactive,
and so I didn't understand. And that's what I hope
this podcast can communicate too, that science is interactive and
(13:52):
it's cool and it's fun, and it might be lonely,
but pretty much every endeavors to excel at it a
little lonely, but you can apply engage your creativity for science,
especially particle physics, right, it involves having a creative evaluation
of the universe. And I hope that we can give
(14:14):
women and girls like the permission that it's yes, of
course you would do that. I'm trying to find a
way to encourage, you know, the use of the imagination
and to bring the focus to the ways that women,
especially in science, for the betterment of humanity, because apparently
like the female feminine point of view, which is contained
(14:37):
in all of us, men and women and everyone in
between is but it's that way of looking at the
universe where it's really valuable. So since you seem like
you had like teflon around you and you weren't too
bothered by people not taking you seriously, but it sounds
like you're a super genius too.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Well, okay, I don't think that.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
One thing that I want to add in the case,
one of the difficult things of the decision that I had,
I thought it was one of the hardest decisions. Was
once that you're in physics, what kind of physics? Physics
is huge, right, and what kind of physics and part
of it, I think ones that I figured out particle
(15:23):
physics experiment, the fact that it has so many people
and there's so many, so many ways to get information
by communicating and by exchanging information with people, that I
wasn't going to be alone in abatement working because that
I I mean, I could, I mean, my personality will
not mean they will not fit well with with me.
(15:45):
And even though the problems and the questions that my
address are interesting, and and then I and an appeal
into my brain too, that that lack of interaction will
have not been I will not, yes, exactly, so I
will have like the I mean exactly, So particle physics
(16:08):
and experimental particlar physics was a good match to my
personality and image also my curiosity as well. But as
I said, I can be curious about many aspects of
physics and beyond physics as well.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
But this idea of just.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Working alone for long time, you know, long a long
time in a basement or with my pen and paper
was not much into.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Which is great.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
I mean, physics has this this aspect that you can,
you know, collaborate with a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And that's a different part of the world.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So cool about CERN and just the collaboration of the
ten thousand scientists or the people from all over the world.
And maybe I'm romanticizing it is kind of like a
Disneyland in my mind now because we have such a
good time when Mark took me and some of the
guests over Concern so but and then how did both
(17:03):
of you guys end up ACERN.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Well, so so we are okay, so maybe talk for me,
but I mean, so we do collider particle physics, right, so,
I mean, there are not that many colliders in the world.
So after after the Tevatron that was at Fermi left,
the next big collider happens to be a turn so
(17:27):
right now, so that is I mean, it's unless we
start doing some other kind of particle physics, experimental particle physics.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
This is this is the place to be.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
It's the large it's the largest collider that that exists currently,
and we are I mean, and we are actually very lucky,
I think too, you know, be to have a function
in collidering, because this takes decades to build, to plan,
(17:58):
you know, and we are actually right now starting to
take data again, so it is quite I mean, I
feel very lucky that, you know, I'm not into in
between two colliders being an experimental particle collider physicist in here,
so we actually have data and have preparations for new
runs and upgrades of the machine. So it's a very
(18:22):
active period to be a particle Physicis.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
You're a professor in Zurich, Yes, and then you go
to CERN, just like Marc is a professor at Duke
and then he you guys cruise over the CERN. The
cruise cruises over the CERN.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And you have your I take the train.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I know I'm going to come to Zurich. I've been
there before. You're so lucky living in the gorgeous fresh air.
And then so what maybe you and Mark can tell
me what's going on at Stern right now and what
in the this run the everything is more focused right
and higher energy. But so you guys must be were
excited to go back because right in the last three
(19:02):
years two and a half years, nobody could go over there.
So what's what's the newest certain party and what are
we going to be hearing?
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I can or marthya okay, yeah, sure.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
So as for Incia said, I mean you can't, you know,
the world kind of forward, sort of more than one
sort of energy frontier collider experiment at any one time.
I mean, the Large Hadron Collider is enormous. It's you know,
twenty seven kilometers and circumference one hundred meters underground, and
there's thousands of physicists from all around the world, and
it really makes no difference where you're from once you're there,
(19:36):
I mean, it doesn't matter what university or even country
that you're from. You interact with a lot of different people,
and it's really a sort of coming together of a
lot of different intellects and creativity and it's I think
that that's why it works. And so, you know, as
Frencia mentioned, it's been shut down for the last couple
of years, and now we've just started taking down again.
So everyone's very excited about, you know, what what that
(19:59):
will bring. And so, you know, we've seen, We're always seen,
you know, we always seem to see sort of hints
of physics beyond our current understanding of the universe. And so,
you know, one of our goals really is, you know,
we have this so called standard model. It's not a
very creative name, but it's our standard model of you know,
of the universe. It's sort of explains the fundamental constituents
(20:21):
and interactions of those constituents, but it's not we know
it's not complete, and so you know, we need to
look for ways where it's going to sort of break down.
And only by understanding how it's going to break down
are we going to be able to develop a news
theory to either extend it or even or even replace it.
And so we're looking for clues in the in the
(20:43):
data that that that give us an indication of how
our current understanding is basically wrong. I mean, you know,
I've always had the opinion that, you know, to first order,
we really don't know anything. And so, you know, we
always believe that we've got almost a complete theory. But
nowhere in the history of our theories have we ever
(21:04):
been close to something that explains everything. And I think,
you know, with further observations, now you know, where we
now understand that everything. We're trying to understand that the
large Hadron collidor is only five percent of the universe.
So it seems like the more, you know, the more
we the more we observe the universe, the more we
make all these sort of very detailed and sophisticated observations,
(21:26):
that the more we realize how little we actually know.
And so, but you know, our goal is to try
to extend this understanding.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Not all scientists are as humble as you are. In fact,
could you repeat that again.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Yeah, So it's not it's just my personal belief that
to first order, we don't really know anything. And you know,
the more we actually do observe, you know, both astrophysically cosmologically,
when we look out and we look at how the
universe is expanding and what's it made of. And the
more we sort of look in with these collider experts
(22:00):
moments and try to create the conditions of the very
early universe and try to understand some of the fundamental
constituents that existed in the very early universe, the more
we realize that our picture is incomplete, and the more
we observe, the more incomplete seems to be. And so,
you know, I think we're doing our best to try
to have an understanding of the universe and our place
(22:22):
in the universe. But I think I've always thought that
basically we don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So good? Are you on that page with him? Florencia,
Do you feel that too that we don't.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Yeah, no, I think so. I mean I believe so
that there's I mean there are some Yeah, we have
covered very.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Little of.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
Of particle physics so far, but I mean it takes
I mean, sometimes it's not just a big, you know,
discovery that we need. Sometimes we just need to clean
up some of our knowledge of what we or what
we think that we understand of particle physics and make
some measurements and understand things a little bit better. And
(23:07):
it just takes time. And this is what this data
most likely will will will give us. Right now, we
are going to take another two three years of data
that will double the amount of data that we have
collected before, so that with that we can get better answers.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I love the way you guys explain it. If that
was explained to me when I was in high school
like that, I'd be like, sure, I want to find
something new, or I think that's incredibly inspiring to anyone listening,
that there are no dumb questions in particle physics and
that we barely know any of it. So it's a
free for all. But so it's back in action turn
(23:47):
and and all these How many are the scientists back then?
Speaker 5 (23:51):
I mean yeah, I mean well, a lot of sciences
are back there graduation never they now at least.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
And she's been there for a year doing hers the thesis.
In these big experiments, you've got to do what's called
a qualification task, so you've got to work on the
actual experiment on the detector or the upgraded version of
the detector, which will be the new detector in a
few years from now. So she's been there doing that
(24:16):
and doing her research. But so typically our students and
post docs been good fraction of their time there, you know,
whether whether we're in shutdown or not. Because even when
we're in shutdown, there's still a lot to do. There's
still a lot of analysis of the data from the
previous sort of data and taking period, and so that's
you know, in fact, we're still analyzing the data from
the previous data taking period. We're very excited about the
(24:39):
new data that's coming in so we can try to
verify or maybe falsify some hence interesting signals that we
may have seen. But we're still you know, there's still
a lot of the big analysis program of the previous data.
Takes a long time to actually sit through all the
data and understand, you know, what it is you're looking
for and to understand the signals that you're actually looking for.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Love to see how that data looks, and that I
know I was in the control room with you, but
I think I was asking masts of dumb questions when
we were on our tour, asked without thinking why was
the I remember, why was the head round collider shut down?
And was he just kidding Mark? When the tour guide
said that he was the one who didn't check the
(25:20):
copper connectors or something.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
But it was half kidding, but I think he was.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
He was reduced to a tour guide. At least he
was sweet. Well, I'm gonna have to find him. We
have to find that story. We'll make him famous. But
and then is it still about a thousand of the
ten thousand women and the.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Great Okay, so I don't know that number, because the
ten thousand, I don't know. I know that in my experiment,
which is probably similar to to to Marx experiment, it's
seventeen percent female.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
I think that's say so yes.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
And he's there, and then there's probably there are different cultural.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Differences once that.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
So in the for instance, there usually in general there
are more students female students. The ratio for female students
to male students is more.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
It's maybe thirty percent something like that.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
But then as they go higher in the in career
like both dog and professors or faculty or researcher, then
there's less diffraction changes. So seventeen percent is the average
of overall career, but there are more more students.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
Really really good point actually, because you know women's students
tend to drop out at a greater rate than male students,
and that would be good to understand. Well, it's it
is understandable. I mean, there's buy for surprises that are there,
and there's different forces that are there to force them out,
and I think that's something that needs to change. There's
(26:57):
still the environment isn't isn't by any means. I mean,
we have typically the number of graduate students we have
a duke. I mean the incoming graduate student classes maybe
forty percent female.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
But is that number in science or in general?
Speaker 5 (27:15):
This is just in physics, So just our incoming graduate
student class. I'm just so this tends to be quite high.
But you know how many of the fraction of those
that didn't go on to do post docs and instay
in academia because in some sense, you know, the the
hierarchy in academia is still white, male dominated, and so
(27:38):
I you know, I think there are still forces there
because of that that you know, the hierarchy likes to
keep the hierarchy. It likes to establish well, you know,
the status quo. You know, I think, you know, good
we need good mentors. We need good mentors like Florencia
and a lot of other female faculty.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
To I'll maybe lately i'm thinking and maybe I'm not
sure if it's controversial and all that, but the thing
is that a lot of it in these conversations is
usually that we need to motivate the female to come in.
(28:17):
And I think that they do come in, but they
in some ways the environment is very it's not that
it's male dominated, but there are very male traits into
how we do certain things that and I think that
beyond the implicit bias which exists and it's there and
(28:39):
it's documented and measurable, we can even quantify it. Just
the environment in itself it doesn't fit some kind of
you know, certain type of female that maybe are more
than for instance, the way that meetings are run or
(28:59):
the way that the communication is.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
You know, exchange inside the experiment is.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
In a way it feeds better certain personalities than others. Right,
And somehow this this is I think what turns women
female you know off after being there for a while.
This is what I see with my female students that
at some point they don't want to or yell or
(29:32):
antaiwon or fee or they would like the conversation to
be a bit different, and that.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's very hard to change unless you have a lot
of a lot more females in the in the in
the in the room in some way.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Yeah, I completely agree that I think it's inspiring the
young woman to start a creating physics isn't a hard
part in some sense, it's it's not that it's male domin.
The whole institution is male, exactly. It's not so well,
the institution is male, and so that's that's that's much
(30:09):
harder to change institutional.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
And how I have never met Fabiola Gianoti, but so
how does she run the whole show? Or is it
just my imagination to this seemed to be quite a
lot of courageous Italian women scientists do they? Is it
because their personality is more they're very enthusiastic and driven,
(30:32):
and I can't think of it, you know, animated. So
I just I've encountered quite a few of them, and
it just seems natural to them, like that Crystal Freddy,
that amazing Italian scientist up there in the International Space Station.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
So I don't know.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
I'll go again. Every time that I have a question,
I going I try to look at the numbers. So
I looked at the numbers because it's very interesting, right
that that per country is not the same, by the way,
and then once that we have this discussion in the
experiment is usually very controversial because the way that you know,
Germans or French or French or Italians see the problem
(31:16):
of gender and balance or what to do about it
is very different than also than the Americans, right, so
it's very different. Now, numbers nevertheless are very similar, and
in case in the case for for Italy, for instance,
in our experiment, which is one of the largest countries
contributing to the experiment along with the with the US,
(31:40):
they are they are similar. They might have a larger
fraction of incoming students female students like incoming meaning at
PhD level, much larger, but the ratio then is very
similar than than than the US at the faculty level.
So it's not that I was surprised because when you
(32:02):
see you do see more Italian female participation, but then
they also.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
You know, leave the field at some stage or yes, is.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
There some because when I grew up it was my
mother was like a fifties woman, so I was taught
erroneously that it could be science or family. So that's
why it was amazed when I was reading about Vera
Rubin who found dark matter. But I loved how she
described how they had these tables in her house and
she was doing all her experiments, or four kids had tables,
(32:39):
they were doing experiments. The husband said, sure, we'll find
someplace to eat. So I hope also that it comes
that it's I mean, it seems like all careers now
you have to be so focused that I mean, I'm
envious of how people do it all. But does that
message still come across that you know, is family or
science or could you you actually have it all. I
(33:01):
met a few of those wonderful lady scientists ats theren
who you know, who had families and kids, and they
were so excelling. I mean, my sister is an engineer
and she had kids and she managed to do it all.
But it still doesn't seem like as natural to a
man to have a science career and have his family.
But I may be around about that also.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Well, it's very hard to generalize. I mean, it's probably
and it's also probably a any changing and it and
his generation, right, so probably you know, thirty years ago
this was completely true, that you know, it was family
or career, and then preda Rubin was you know, an exception,
and that showing showing that that didn't have to be.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
But that's being said in general.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
It was like that for what I see in you know,
other generations a female scientists, that it was more common.
Veria's case was not that common. Let's say now these days,
I think most female scientists that I know have families.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Not all. I mean, they might decide not to. I mean,
it's but it's not it's not.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
I don't see it family or career that much. Although
I have to say one student once told me that,
you know, she she was not going to stay she
wanted to do her PhD and then live because because
she would have to decide between one and the other
one and she and she did. But this was again
(34:37):
was a personal choice she wanted, she wanted to do,
she wanted to dedicate her full time to her family
after her PhD. And and she exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So that's still as a dumb question, it's not really
about particle physics, but what kind of what does your
day to day look like? Both of you guys, So
what is it something you're doing like eighteen hours a
day or I don't even know what it looks like
what you do when you're not in the laboratory or
are you there, I know, you go to a lot
(35:10):
of fun conferences. When I was at and I saw
all those incredible, gorgeous Caribbean physics conferences, and I thought
that a good reason to get into particle physics.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
Yeah, I think, Well, so we usually have many jobs
because we have the you know, okay, the teaching. I
will say, first, we have we we teach maybe you know,
depends on which university and which semester, it can be large.
I mean up to twenty percent. I mean for me
maybe twenty percent. And then we have our own students
(35:45):
that we do our research with and that we spend
some time doing that. Right now, for me, it is
a special because I'm in a special two years where
I coordinate the physics I mean output the physics and
the physics coordinator of the output of the CMS experiment.
(36:05):
So right now, essentially for I mean halfway through my mandate,
my mandate, So essentially that means that most of my
time is dedicated to that.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
What CMS stand for again.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Compact newon solenoids.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
So it's an experiment like Atlas for for is one
of the two largest experiments at the LHC, at the
Large Hadron Collider.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
And yeah, it has about three thousand people.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
And that new one, it's the new one.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Is the me on is the most special?
Speaker 4 (36:41):
Yes, And so I don't know if when you visited,
uh the SERN, you visited one of the experiments, did
you go underground?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Yeah, we've been underground to Okay, So if you come
at the right time, then where you can go to CMS.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
I might stay there permanently. I was trying to find
a reason why I was obsessed with my return to CERN.
Besides that we have the best time ever. We have
so much chaos in America in our communities, so many
people passed away, and so much I'm unrest and dismantling
of everything we know. So I feel like one thing
(37:20):
I especially love may be romanticizing. And also but at CERN,
it seems like they're trying to make sense of the
chaos of the world of the universe. So, I mean,
it just seems like a way to handle it. I mean,
you have I know, we only know five percent of it,
but I don't know that we have a way to
handle all the other chaos that we've been going through
(37:40):
the last few years.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Maybe I actually think that, you know, at a place
like CERN, you know, it is helping in that regard
as well, because it's bringing physicists from different countries. You know,
sometimes those different countries are in conflict with with each
other as well, but the physicist themselves are not in
in some sense, this kind of an enterprise with piece
as well, because it just brings it brings a lot
(38:02):
of different diversity into into the same place and everyone
seems to get along.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
In the cafeteria there. Unless it was my imagination and
we know I have an active one that I feel
like you could feel these smoke coming out of the
Nobel Prize winners years. I mean that was there's just
so much energy. There is a collaboration and communication and
it's really exciting to me. And tell me a little
bit about the move on, move on and what what
(38:30):
you're looking for and what you hope to find.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Okay, So the meon there is because it's one of
the because of the way that the design the design
of the of the really large detector is. It's smaller
than than the Athlett detector that you have seen, but
much heavier. This is why it is the compact words
in there, but I mean it has similar goals and
(38:53):
and than than the the Adlett detector, and it is
essentially it's a multipurpose detector that we say and trying
to address the main.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Questions in particle physics that.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Mark when went over right now you know it's one
of the detectors that is covered the Higgs both on
that you probably have heard about. This makes measurements of
try to make sure measurements of properties of particles very
precisely and also look for, you know, new particles that
(39:34):
that might exist and my explain or might bring answer
to some of the questions that we have or maybe
just bring more questions most likely.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
That's that's that's what we we we try to do.
Speaker 4 (39:47):
The mune is one of the standard model particles, one
of the laptons, like the heavy broader of the electron.
It's like an electron, but it's a bit heavier. Then
we also have a tow after that. So these are
the three leptons and we measure them or we know
how to measure them, but we use them as proofs
(40:10):
of something that could have happened that comes from something
else that we might not know, for instance, So we
measure our detector, try to measure or in fair all
the particles in the standard model that we know, and
with that information we try to uncover properties of some
of the particles or new measurements of things that could
(40:32):
have been created in the detector.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
And what is the lepton?
Speaker 4 (40:38):
Lepton is a type of particle that is like the
electron is a lepton. Oh, it is just a family
of the Leptons are a family of type of particles.
So it's like the electron is the is the most
famous one and the oldest one. But for instance, one
of the things that we don't I mean one of
(40:59):
the things that we oh no, it's I mean the
leg We have the electron, we have the new and
we have the tao, but I mean all the the
matter as we know it doesn't have a nuance or towels.
We can create them, right, but we the matter that
we know it doesn't doesn't have those. We One of
the questions that we have is, for instance, why do
we have these three copies of of of leptons. That
(41:24):
is a very easy question to ask, where we have,
you know, ideas, but we don't have answers.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
You guys are so good explaining. Thank you for always
making it digestible. And I so appreciate Mark getting up
so early. And Florenzia, I hope I get to meet
you in person. Well, see what we can do to
inspire wonderful women like you. Florenzia.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
Yeah, it's been good. It's been good talking to Berncia again.
It's been a long time time.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
I so appreciate Mark for you introducing me to Florentia,
which I hopefully meet in person, and so an inspiring
to talk to you. And I look forward to communicating
with you and collaborating with you further and help getting
your the message out that this is actually science can
be fun.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Yes, thank you, thank you, Thanks, thank you, bye bye.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Thank you au Revoa. Wow, thank you doctor Mark and
doctor Florencia. I just love the way you both evaluate
and explain everything in the universe so well, it's really
a pleasure to learn from both of you. Hey, Higgs Boson,
we just got an email, Dear Dahlia, make perin world
(42:37):
right and Gilded Balloon will be delighted to produce your play,
Oh my God, Particle Show. It's the Edinburgh Fringe Festival
August second to twenty seven, twenty twenty three. Wait, what
make parent Worldwide? And Gilded Balloon would be delighted to
produce your play th Oh my God Particle show at
the Edinburgh Fringe Festival August second to twenty seven, twenty
twenty three. Higgsy, this is Dune Might We're going to
(43:01):
the Edinburgh Fringe Festival after Siron. I can't wait, can you?
What's super cool is the Gilded Balloon. They're this amazing
mother daughter producing team that has produced the best shows
at the Edinburgh Festival for the last thirty years and
Mick Perrin worldwide, I mean all of them. They're a
(43:23):
phenomenal production group created by Mick Perrin. This guy the
legend of Legends, a total rock star and literally like
the nicest guy ever. So Mick he discovered Eddie Hazard
and Trevor Noah. He started them since their earliest days
and right now they're producing Eddie Hazard's like genius total
version of Dickens' Great Expectations in the West End at
(43:45):
the Garrick Theater after this absolutely sold out run in
New York City with the equally wonderful Arnold Engelman and
west bet. I love that Mick Arnold's Gilded Balloon and
their incredible teams support originality, creativity, live theater and me.
I am just so honored and excited to work with
(44:07):
all these creative wizards. With a special shout out to
Ruben and Harry and everyone involved at Mick Parrin Worldwide
and Gilded Balloon. Thank you, thanks for listening to my
podcast and please come see my play the Oh My
God Particle Show running from August second to twenty seventh,
except August fifteenth at Gilded Balloon at the Edinburgh Fringe
(44:29):
Festival twenty twenty three. I'm gonna be posting all the
information on my Instagram at Dahlia Wild Official. Stay tuned
for more details about more OMGPS live theater shows in London,
Geneva and New York City La outer Space Who Knows.
Thank you for all your support. Join us next week
(44:50):
for more mind blowing guests and some super special news
for my omgpsers about how to win free tickets to
see the Oh My God Particles Show live. Person Thank
you for being part of the OMGPS Club. It's such
a pleasure to have you here. Until next time Habiento.
Remember keep looking up, stay positively charged. We are the stars.
(45:15):
Goodbye for now, Adios a rivederci Abfaersen Habiento. Listen before hearing.
According to quantum theory, this podcast may collapse into another
state if audibly observed
Welcome van kommen yin venido yvenu benvenutiaduti. Welcome one and all,
Thank you for joining me. I'm Gallia Wild and this
is the Oh My God Particle Show where we talk
about science and art and music and good good good
vibrations and all matters near and far. So ready or not,
(00:33):
unpack your imaginations and get ready to rumble through the
universe that we are so so lucky to live in.
We are the stars.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Caution.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
A sub atomic adhesive holds the fundamental constituents of this
podcast together. Since the exact nature of this clue is
not yet fully comprehended, its adhesive power cannot be guaranteed.
To date, no, no malfunction of the podcast or ensuing
injury has resulted from adhesive failure.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Bojo mojo, mis me coumosaba. Hi. Hello, I'm Dahlia Wild
and this is my co host Higgs Boson, Wonderdog. Welcome
to the Oh My God Particle Show, and you are
so welcome. JAVOUZEMPLEI. I hope you're all doing really well.
(01:25):
Me and Higgs Boson, we're just rocking it. We're on
the way to CERN, which is located at the gorgeous
border of France and Switzerland. Luckily, my excellent Kiwi mentor
from the Large Hadron Collider, doctor Mark Cruz. He introduced
me to his former student and now his super brilliant colleague,
doctor Florencia Canelli. The two of these scientific wizards are
(01:49):
gonna explain a lot of things to us today on
our show, so we can get some extra brain cells
before we actually get there. Flarencia Pinelli is a really
cool scientist. She's originally from Paraguay. Her father was a
car mechanic, so she started having a lot of curiosity
(02:09):
about how stump works from a really young age. And
now she's a professor at the physic Institute of the
University of Zurich, who lots a great chocolate there. I bet.
Her research consists of studying the structure of matter, energy,
space and time at the highest energies possible to understand
the fundamental nature of our universe. Her current research is
(02:32):
at the CMS experiment at the Large Hadron Collider. Why
don't we just call it the LHC from now on, okay.
Compact Muon Solenoid or CMS, is a detector at the
LHC keep listening for a pop quiz, So I welcome
bother you. Everyone. Listeners do to help me focus what's about.
(02:54):
But it's important to me to help especially girls and
women know that it's okay, that is natural to be
a scientist, to give them permission to examine the universe,
to put their theories forward, and also that science could
be very cool. And I kind of want to dismantle
the geek feeling of women in science because I'm really interested.
(03:16):
How did you get into particle physics, Like who mentored
you and what did you do when you ran into
challenges or how from a young age did you feel
like it was okay to do particle physics.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Okay, so that's that's like a foreign one question.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
So yes, so it is the first one is a
long question, is a long answer, So because I don't know,
and that's probably the short answer.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It's not that.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
I mean, I can give you kinds and I have
hints on what happens on how people make decisions and
end up in certain places, but I never, for sure
never had a plan to become a scientist or.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
A physicist or a particle physisist.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
And I know that when I was little had me
little in elementary school, I had some affinity to do
anything that that had you know, science in it, because
it was I was curious.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I know that. I know that my father is a
car mechanic, so I had a lot of.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Visual experience on how to put things together and disassemble them.
And I have seen him work with his hands and
machines all my life, so that I had affinity, or at.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Least I wasn't scared of that.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Now. I was raised in a very small country in Paraguay,
and that there's not much science even till today in
in in Paraguay, and so is there's nothing that I
you know, I mean science for me was kind of
you know, out of I mean from an universe really,
(04:53):
so it wasn't something that I've seen. I knew that
I had a lot of questions, and then I knew
that in the school, you know, I I wasn't getting
enough answers. Now when the high school. During high school,
essentially I lost all my interest in learning match I
mean I was okay, but I mean it was not
(05:14):
really I don't know, maybe it was being a teenager
or what, but I was not very happy with the school.
So I wasn't sure what I was going to do.
Then it happened that I went for my parents because
they knew that I had no clue what I wanted
to do, and they didn't.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Both of them didn't go to college. They were working.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Class people, masters and my father is a mechanic, and
they also didn't know what to advise, and they had
the great idea to send me to a high school
the last three months, the three months of the high
school to the US in an exchange program, and.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
In there I was the host. Parents that I was
living with.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Took me on a tour of some universities and there
I took a lot of.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Prosures of like what careers, what careers exist?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
And I figured out I came back to the two
part of way, and when I came back, I thought, Okay,
I think I.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Know what I want to do.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
I think, you know, something related to engineering. It would
be the right thing for me, and I went back.
When I went back, I went to enrolled to the university,
very happy that I made my decision. And when I
went to the university, they told me, well, the registration
closed six months ago.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
You know, you have to wait a year to start.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
But the secretary said, well, but you could enroll in science,
do one year and then transfer here because there are
a lot of classes that are common.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Then that's what I did.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It was in a completely different building, and and I
enrolled in science and in science and then the and
I said what is the most similar and they said physics.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
So I said okay.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
So unfortunately at that stage what happened was that physics
was opened. But then they had in a month they
were had they would have they were going to have the.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Exams to to the entrance exams.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
So I had to prepare in a month all the
high school that I didn't I barely study in high
school in a month, take all the exams, passed them
to be able to get in. So yes and that,
and then as soon as I was in, I think
six months into it, I thought, this is great, this
is this is what I wanted. I had a lot
of science and a lot of books that were super interesting,
(07:53):
and I never looked back.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Were you on my child?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
No, well kind of. My sister is ten years younger,
so kind of yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
How smart of your parents, how cool to be a
car mechanic, and how smart of them to encourage you,
and I love that on these journeys there's always like
an angel who you know, the secretary, the parents, there's
some person the mark cruises of the world, who you know,
help you stay on the path. And when you went
then into that physics program, were you the only girl
(08:24):
there or were there other girls?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Well, so, okay, so now we.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Are in Paraguay there, so it's not it's not that
the physics is I mean, physics essentially is a study
to teach. So there were probably fifty percent female and
fifty percent male, I think, so it's not a scientific
it's not a research career. There is mainly to teach,
(08:51):
and that there's the fraction of female male is is
more balanced there. So I never noticed that that was
That was the other saying that because I did there
three years before going to Argentina to finish. At that point,
I never even think about gender and balance or never
(09:13):
crossed my mind that because everything was, I mean, doing
science in Paraguay is already quite different. So I never
thought that being a female. I never crossed my mind
actually that being a female was going to be different
or that it.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Wasn't for female science.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
It never I don't know it never occurred to me
at that stage, which brings me to a funny story
because the first time I remember someone asking me how
is to be a female in science?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Was at Mark's wedding.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
That was the first time. So this is at the
beginning of my PhD. And I remember maybe a year
or two someone in a table that is full of
people of non scientists, saying in how is it to
be a female in science?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
And it's different?
Speaker 4 (10:06):
And then and I remember asked when they asked that question, everything,
all my memories collapsed and and I realized, oh, there
are not so many of me for the first time
when someone asked the question, because I was completely kind
of clue at that point, and I had to come
up with an answer, which I still don't know the
(10:27):
answer right away, and I said, only no, it is
it is good, it's great.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I don't see any issues.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
And I still remember that because I remember if I
could go back in time, I probably will change that answer,
but it got stuck in my head because it's like yes,
because it was the first time that I realized that, yes,
there were not that many females and I didn't have
that many examples, and that I was just kind of
(10:55):
probably you know, consciously not paying attention to that, because
then I would realize probably or at some level not.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
But it's probably better because that's what I'm hoping. It'll
just become so natural that it won't be a thing,
you know, just that we're all my The concept of my,
oh my God particles show the play is that if
we're all made of the God particles, we're all made
of the same stuff. Like can we just get along
and hopefully it all you know, a line where we're
(11:23):
all just working together, no one cares what you are.
But where was the wedding? Was it in Rochester or
Duke or New Zealand?
Speaker 5 (11:31):
Chicago?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
And so what were you guys? What were you doing
up there? Mark at the Fermi Lab?
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Well? I well, I was a postdoc at the time,
so in fact, yeah, I was a great student at
Family Lab. I was a question at Purdue University in fact,
which isn't too far from Chicago, so I didn't spend
much time at Purdue, but I did all my research
up in Chicago. And then I was a post off
with Rochester where Fluencia was a student.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
And you were blown away hot alliant. She was that's
what I love best about you, Mark, So you just
is so inspiring and I love how you say they're
not them.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
But that's really interesting what for instance being natural, because
it was probably just because it was natural, it's it
probably helped, right in some sense.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I mean, or Dahlia say, naive.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Is a good way, in a good way, because no, no, no,
not but in a good way. I mean, I think,
I think, I I that protects protects you from continue
moving forward, right, you are not distracted by by by
the stones on the in the road. In some ways,
you just continue you don't see them. So I think
in some ways that was okay at that time to
(12:40):
to to not see I did start seeing them as
a postal later and that that was more more more
of an issue.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
I was much more aware of that.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
And then you work to not get bitter by or
cynical about about certain things that you see.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
So so then there.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Is some some energy you put into it, like okay,
you know, let's see the big goal here and not
get distracted by it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Oh that's so good. That a good message, I know.
And to not quit because I think so When I
was a biologist, my brother's a physicist. Father was a doctor.
But I was thinking out, how lucky are the women
who know how to keep going? Because I didn't feel
welcome where I was in science fairs, I would meet
a lot of unusual scientists who were doing more than
(13:30):
just judging the science. How can we say it that way?
And I also felt lonely in the laboratory. I didn't
I felt like I had things to say and I
wanted this colorful, you know life that was very interactive,
and so I didn't understand. And that's what I hope
this podcast can communicate too, that science is interactive and
(13:52):
it's cool and it's fun, and it might be lonely,
but pretty much every endeavors to excel at it a
little lonely, but you can apply engage your creativity for science,
especially particle physics, right, it involves having a creative evaluation
of the universe. And I hope that we can give
(14:14):
women and girls like the permission that it's yes, of
course you would do that. I'm trying to find a
way to encourage, you know, the use of the imagination
and to bring the focus to the ways that women,
especially in science, for the betterment of humanity, because apparently
like the female feminine point of view, which is contained
(14:37):
in all of us, men and women and everyone in
between is but it's that way of looking at the
universe where it's really valuable. So since you seem like
you had like teflon around you and you weren't too
bothered by people not taking you seriously, but it sounds
like you're a super genius too.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Well, okay, I don't think that.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
One thing that I want to add in the case,
one of the difficult things of the decision that I had,
I thought it was one of the hardest decisions. Was
once that you're in physics, what kind of physics? Physics
is huge, right, and what kind of physics and part
of it, I think ones that I figured out particle
(15:23):
physics experiment, the fact that it has so many people
and there's so many, so many ways to get information
by communicating and by exchanging information with people, that I
wasn't going to be alone in abatement working because that
I I mean, I could, I mean, my personality will
not mean they will not fit well with with me.
(15:45):
And even though the problems and the questions that my
address are interesting, and and then I and an appeal
into my brain too, that that lack of interaction will
have not been I will not, yes, exactly, so I
will have like the I mean exactly, So particle physics
(16:08):
and experimental particlar physics was a good match to my
personality and image also my curiosity as well. But as
I said, I can be curious about many aspects of
physics and beyond physics as well.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
But this idea of just.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Working alone for long time, you know, long a long
time in a basement or with my pen and paper
was not much into.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Which is great.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
I mean, physics has this this aspect that you can,
you know, collaborate with a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And that's a different part of the world.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So cool about CERN and just the collaboration of the
ten thousand scientists or the people from all over the world.
And maybe I'm romanticizing it is kind of like a
Disneyland in my mind now because we have such a
good time when Mark took me and some of the
guests over Concern so but and then how did both
(17:03):
of you guys end up ACERN.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Well, so so we are okay, so maybe talk for me,
but I mean, so we do collider particle physics, right, so,
I mean, there are not that many colliders in the world.
So after after the Tevatron that was at Fermi left,
the next big collider happens to be a turn so
(17:27):
right now, so that is I mean, it's unless we
start doing some other kind of particle physics, experimental particle physics.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
This is this is the place to be.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
It's the large it's the largest collider that that exists currently,
and we are I mean, and we are actually very lucky,
I think too, you know, be to have a function
in collidering, because this takes decades to build, to plan,
(17:58):
you know, and we are actually right now starting to
take data again, so it is quite I mean, I
feel very lucky that, you know, I'm not into in
between two colliders being an experimental particle collider physicist in here,
so we actually have data and have preparations for new
runs and upgrades of the machine. So it's a very
(18:22):
active period to be a particle Physicis.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
You're a professor in Zurich, Yes, and then you go
to CERN, just like Marc is a professor at Duke
and then he you guys cruise over the CERN. The
cruise cruises over the CERN.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And you have your I take the train.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I know I'm going to come to Zurich. I've been
there before. You're so lucky living in the gorgeous fresh air.
And then so what maybe you and Mark can tell
me what's going on at Stern right now and what
in the this run the everything is more focused right
and higher energy. But so you guys must be were
excited to go back because right in the last three
(19:02):
years two and a half years, nobody could go over there.
So what's what's the newest certain party and what are
we going to be hearing?
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I can or marthya okay, yeah, sure.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
So as for Incia said, I mean you can't, you know,
the world kind of forward, sort of more than one
sort of energy frontier collider experiment at any one time.
I mean, the Large Hadron Collider is enormous. It's you know,
twenty seven kilometers and circumference one hundred meters underground, and
there's thousands of physicists from all around the world, and
it really makes no difference where you're from once you're there,
(19:36):
I mean, it doesn't matter what university or even country
that you're from. You interact with a lot of different people,
and it's really a sort of coming together of a
lot of different intellects and creativity and it's I think
that that's why it works. And so, you know, as
Frencia mentioned, it's been shut down for the last couple
of years, and now we've just started taking down again.
So everyone's very excited about, you know, what what that
(19:59):
will bring. And so, you know, we've seen, We're always seen,
you know, we always seem to see sort of hints
of physics beyond our current understanding of the universe. And so,
you know, one of our goals really is, you know,
we have this so called standard model. It's not a
very creative name, but it's our standard model of you know,
of the universe. It's sort of explains the fundamental constituents
(20:21):
and interactions of those constituents, but it's not we know
it's not complete, and so you know, we need to
look for ways where it's going to sort of break down.
And only by understanding how it's going to break down
are we going to be able to develop a news
theory to either extend it or even or even replace it.
And so we're looking for clues in the in the
(20:43):
data that that that give us an indication of how
our current understanding is basically wrong. I mean, you know,
I've always had the opinion that, you know, to first order,
we really don't know anything. And so, you know, we
always believe that we've got almost a complete theory. But
nowhere in the history of our theories have we ever
(21:04):
been close to something that explains everything. And I think,
you know, with further observations, now you know, where we
now understand that everything. We're trying to understand that the
large Hadron collidor is only five percent of the universe.
So it seems like the more, you know, the more
we the more we observe the universe, the more we
make all these sort of very detailed and sophisticated observations,
(21:26):
that the more we realize how little we actually know.
And so, but you know, our goal is to try
to extend this understanding.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Not all scientists are as humble as you are. In fact,
could you repeat that again.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Yeah, So it's not it's just my personal belief that
to first order, we don't really know anything. And you know,
the more we actually do observe, you know, both astrophysically cosmologically,
when we look out and we look at how the
universe is expanding and what's it made of. And the
more we sort of look in with these collider experts
(22:00):
moments and try to create the conditions of the very
early universe and try to understand some of the fundamental
constituents that existed in the very early universe, the more
we realize that our picture is incomplete, and the more
we observe, the more incomplete seems to be. And so,
you know, I think we're doing our best to try
to have an understanding of the universe and our place
(22:22):
in the universe. But I think I've always thought that
basically we don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So good? Are you on that page with him? Florencia,
Do you feel that too that we don't.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Yeah, no, I think so. I mean I believe so
that there's I mean there are some Yeah, we have
covered very.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Little of.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
Of particle physics so far, but I mean it takes
I mean, sometimes it's not just a big, you know,
discovery that we need. Sometimes we just need to clean
up some of our knowledge of what we or what
we think that we understand of particle physics and make
some measurements and understand things a little bit better. And
(23:07):
it just takes time. And this is what this data
most likely will will will give us. Right now, we
are going to take another two three years of data
that will double the amount of data that we have
collected before, so that with that we can get better answers.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I love the way you guys explain it. If that
was explained to me when I was in high school
like that, I'd be like, sure, I want to find
something new, or I think that's incredibly inspiring to anyone listening,
that there are no dumb questions in particle physics and
that we barely know any of it. So it's a
free for all. But so it's back in action turn
(23:47):
and and all these How many are the scientists back then?
Speaker 5 (23:51):
I mean yeah, I mean well, a lot of sciences
are back there graduation never they now at least.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
And she's been there for a year doing hers the thesis.
In these big experiments, you've got to do what's called
a qualification task, so you've got to work on the
actual experiment on the detector or the upgraded version of
the detector, which will be the new detector in a
few years from now. So she's been there doing that
(24:16):
and doing her research. But so typically our students and
post docs been good fraction of their time there, you know,
whether whether we're in shutdown or not. Because even when
we're in shutdown, there's still a lot to do. There's
still a lot of analysis of the data from the
previous sort of data and taking period, and so that's
you know, in fact, we're still analyzing the data from
the previous data taking period. We're very excited about the
(24:39):
new data that's coming in so we can try to
verify or maybe falsify some hence interesting signals that we
may have seen. But we're still you know, there's still
a lot of the big analysis program of the previous data.
Takes a long time to actually sit through all the
data and understand, you know, what it is you're looking
for and to understand the signals that you're actually looking for.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Love to see how that data looks, and that I
know I was in the control room with you, but
I think I was asking masts of dumb questions when
we were on our tour, asked without thinking why was
the I remember, why was the head round collider shut down?
And was he just kidding Mark? When the tour guide
said that he was the one who didn't check the
(25:20):
copper connectors or something.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
But it was half kidding, but I think he was.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
He was reduced to a tour guide. At least he
was sweet. Well, I'm gonna have to find him. We
have to find that story. We'll make him famous. But
and then is it still about a thousand of the
ten thousand women and the.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Great Okay, so I don't know that number, because the
ten thousand, I don't know. I know that in my experiment,
which is probably similar to to to Marx experiment, it's
seventeen percent female.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
I think that's say so yes.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
And he's there, and then there's probably there are different cultural.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Differences once that.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
So in the for instance, there usually in general there
are more students female students. The ratio for female students
to male students is more.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
It's maybe thirty percent something like that.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
But then as they go higher in the in career
like both dog and professors or faculty or researcher, then
there's less diffraction changes. So seventeen percent is the average
of overall career, but there are more more students.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
Really really good point actually, because you know women's students
tend to drop out at a greater rate than male students,
and that would be good to understand. Well, it's it
is understandable. I mean, there's buy for surprises that are there,
and there's different forces that are there to force them out,
and I think that's something that needs to change. There's
(26:57):
still the environment isn't isn't by any means. I mean,
we have typically the number of graduate students we have
a duke. I mean the incoming graduate student classes maybe
forty percent female.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
But is that number in science or in general?
Speaker 5 (27:15):
This is just in physics, So just our incoming graduate
student class. I'm just so this tends to be quite high.
But you know how many of the fraction of those
that didn't go on to do post docs and instay
in academia because in some sense, you know, the the
hierarchy in academia is still white, male dominated, and so
(27:38):
I you know, I think there are still forces there
because of that that you know, the hierarchy likes to
keep the hierarchy. It likes to establish well, you know,
the status quo. You know, I think, you know, good
we need good mentors. We need good mentors like Florencia
and a lot of other female faculty.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
To I'll maybe lately i'm thinking and maybe I'm not
sure if it's controversial and all that, but the thing
is that a lot of it in these conversations is
usually that we need to motivate the female to come in.
(28:17):
And I think that they do come in, but they
in some ways the environment is very it's not that
it's male dominated, but there are very male traits into
how we do certain things that and I think that
beyond the implicit bias which exists and it's there and
(28:39):
it's documented and measurable, we can even quantify it. Just
the environment in itself it doesn't fit some kind of
you know, certain type of female that maybe are more
than for instance, the way that meetings are run or
(28:59):
the way that the communication is.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
You know, exchange inside the experiment is.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
In a way it feeds better certain personalities than others. Right,
And somehow this this is I think what turns women
female you know off after being there for a while.
This is what I see with my female students that
at some point they don't want to or yell or
(29:32):
antaiwon or fee or they would like the conversation to
be a bit different, and that.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's very hard to change unless you have a lot
of a lot more females in the in the in
the in the room in some way.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Yeah, I completely agree that I think it's inspiring the
young woman to start a creating physics isn't a hard
part in some sense, it's it's not that it's male domin.
The whole institution is male, exactly. It's not so well,
the institution is male, and so that's that's that's much
(30:09):
harder to change institutional.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
And how I have never met Fabiola Gianoti, but so
how does she run the whole show? Or is it
just my imagination to this seemed to be quite a
lot of courageous Italian women scientists do they? Is it
because their personality is more they're very enthusiastic and driven,
(30:32):
and I can't think of it, you know, animated. So
I just I've encountered quite a few of them, and
it just seems natural to them, like that Crystal Freddy,
that amazing Italian scientist up there in the International Space Station.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
So I don't know.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
I'll go again. Every time that I have a question,
I going I try to look at the numbers. So
I looked at the numbers because it's very interesting, right
that that per country is not the same, by the way,
and then once that we have this discussion in the
experiment is usually very controversial because the way that you know,
Germans or French or French or Italians see the problem
(31:16):
of gender and balance or what to do about it
is very different than also than the Americans, right, so
it's very different. Now, numbers nevertheless are very similar, and
in case in the case for for Italy, for instance,
in our experiment, which is one of the largest countries
contributing to the experiment along with the with the US,
(31:40):
they are they are similar. They might have a larger
fraction of incoming students female students like incoming meaning at
PhD level, much larger, but the ratio then is very
similar than than than the US at the faculty level.
So it's not that I was surprised because when you
(32:02):
see you do see more Italian female participation, but then
they also.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
You know, leave the field at some stage or yes, is.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
There some because when I grew up it was my
mother was like a fifties woman, so I was taught
erroneously that it could be science or family. So that's
why it was amazed when I was reading about Vera
Rubin who found dark matter. But I loved how she
described how they had these tables in her house and
she was doing all her experiments, or four kids had tables,
(32:39):
they were doing experiments. The husband said, sure, we'll find
someplace to eat. So I hope also that it comes
that it's I mean, it seems like all careers now
you have to be so focused that I mean, I'm
envious of how people do it all. But does that
message still come across that you know, is family or
science or could you you actually have it all. I
(33:01):
met a few of those wonderful lady scientists ats theren
who you know, who had families and kids, and they
were so excelling. I mean, my sister is an engineer
and she had kids and she managed to do it all.
But it still doesn't seem like as natural to a
man to have a science career and have his family.
But I may be around about that also.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Well, it's very hard to generalize. I mean, it's probably
and it's also probably a any changing and it and
his generation, right, so probably you know, thirty years ago
this was completely true, that you know, it was family
or career, and then preda Rubin was you know, an exception,
and that showing showing that that didn't have to be.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
But that's being said in general.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
It was like that for what I see in you know,
other generations a female scientists, that it was more common.
Veria's case was not that common. Let's say now these days,
I think most female scientists that I know have families.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Not all. I mean, they might decide not to. I mean,
it's but it's not it's not.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
I don't see it family or career that much. Although
I have to say one student once told me that,
you know, she she was not going to stay she
wanted to do her PhD and then live because because
she would have to decide between one and the other
one and she and she did. But this was again
(34:37):
was a personal choice she wanted, she wanted to do,
she wanted to dedicate her full time to her family
after her PhD. And and she exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So that's still as a dumb question, it's not really
about particle physics, but what kind of what does your
day to day look like? Both of you guys, So
what is it something you're doing like eighteen hours a
day or I don't even know what it looks like
what you do when you're not in the laboratory or
are you there, I know, you go to a lot
(35:10):
of fun conferences. When I was at and I saw
all those incredible, gorgeous Caribbean physics conferences, and I thought
that a good reason to get into particle physics.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
Yeah, I think, Well, so we usually have many jobs
because we have the you know, okay, the teaching. I
will say, first, we have we we teach maybe you know,
depends on which university and which semester, it can be large.
I mean up to twenty percent. I mean for me
maybe twenty percent. And then we have our own students
(35:45):
that we do our research with and that we spend
some time doing that. Right now, for me, it is
a special because I'm in a special two years where
I coordinate the physics I mean output the physics and
the physics coordinator of the output of the CMS experiment.
(36:05):
So right now, essentially for I mean halfway through my mandate,
my mandate, So essentially that means that most of my
time is dedicated to that.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
What CMS stand for again.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Compact newon solenoids.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
So it's an experiment like Atlas for for is one
of the two largest experiments at the LHC, at the
Large Hadron Collider.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
And yeah, it has about three thousand people.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
And that new one, it's the new one.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Is the me on is the most special?
Speaker 4 (36:41):
Yes, And so I don't know if when you visited,
uh the SERN, you visited one of the experiments, did
you go underground?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Yeah, we've been underground to Okay, So if you come
at the right time, then where you can go to CMS.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
I might stay there permanently. I was trying to find
a reason why I was obsessed with my return to CERN.
Besides that we have the best time ever. We have
so much chaos in America in our communities, so many
people passed away, and so much I'm unrest and dismantling
of everything we know. So I feel like one thing
(37:20):
I especially love may be romanticizing. And also but at CERN,
it seems like they're trying to make sense of the
chaos of the world of the universe. So, I mean,
it just seems like a way to handle it. I mean,
you have I know, we only know five percent of it,
but I don't know that we have a way to
handle all the other chaos that we've been going through
(37:40):
the last few years.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Maybe I actually think that, you know, at a place
like CERN, you know, it is helping in that regard
as well, because it's bringing physicists from different countries. You know,
sometimes those different countries are in conflict with with each
other as well, but the physicist themselves are not in
in some sense, this kind of an enterprise with piece
as well, because it just brings it brings a lot
(38:02):
of different diversity into into the same place and everyone
seems to get along.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
In the cafeteria there. Unless it was my imagination and
we know I have an active one that I feel
like you could feel these smoke coming out of the
Nobel Prize winners years. I mean that was there's just
so much energy. There is a collaboration and communication and
it's really exciting to me. And tell me a little
bit about the move on, move on and what what
(38:30):
you're looking for and what you hope to find.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Okay, So the meon there is because it's one of
the because of the way that the design the design
of the of the really large detector is. It's smaller
than than the Athlett detector that you have seen, but
much heavier. This is why it is the compact words
in there, but I mean it has similar goals and
(38:53):
and than than the the Adlett detector, and it is
essentially it's a multipurpose detector that we say and trying
to address the main.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Questions in particle physics that.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Mark when went over right now you know it's one
of the detectors that is covered the Higgs both on
that you probably have heard about. This makes measurements of
try to make sure measurements of properties of particles very
precisely and also look for, you know, new particles that
(39:34):
that might exist and my explain or might bring answer
to some of the questions that we have or maybe
just bring more questions most likely.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
That's that's that's what we we we try to do.
Speaker 4 (39:47):
The mune is one of the standard model particles, one
of the laptons, like the heavy broader of the electron.
It's like an electron, but it's a bit heavier. Then
we also have a tow after that. So these are
the three leptons and we measure them or we know
how to measure them, but we use them as proofs
(40:10):
of something that could have happened that comes from something
else that we might not know, for instance, So we
measure our detector, try to measure or in fair all
the particles in the standard model that we know, and
with that information we try to uncover properties of some
of the particles or new measurements of things that could
(40:32):
have been created in the detector.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
And what is the lepton?
Speaker 4 (40:38):
Lepton is a type of particle that is like the
electron is a lepton. Oh, it is just a family
of the Leptons are a family of type of particles.
So it's like the electron is the is the most
famous one and the oldest one. But for instance, one
of the things that we don't I mean one of
(40:59):
the things that we oh no, it's I mean the
leg We have the electron, we have the new and
we have the tao, but I mean all the the
matter as we know it doesn't have a nuance or towels.
We can create them, right, but we the matter that
we know it doesn't doesn't have those. We One of
the questions that we have is, for instance, why do
we have these three copies of of of leptons. That
(41:24):
is a very easy question to ask, where we have,
you know, ideas, but we don't have answers.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
You guys are so good explaining. Thank you for always
making it digestible. And I so appreciate Mark getting up
so early. And Florenzia, I hope I get to meet
you in person. Well, see what we can do to
inspire wonderful women like you. Florenzia.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
Yeah, it's been good. It's been good talking to Berncia again.
It's been a long time time.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
I so appreciate Mark for you introducing me to Florentia,
which I hopefully meet in person, and so an inspiring
to talk to you. And I look forward to communicating
with you and collaborating with you further and help getting
your the message out that this is actually science can
be fun.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Yes, thank you, thank you, Thanks, thank you, bye bye.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Thank you au Revoa. Wow, thank you doctor Mark and
doctor Florencia. I just love the way you both evaluate
and explain everything in the universe so well, it's really
a pleasure to learn from both of you. Hey, Higgs Boson,
we just got an email, Dear Dahlia, make perin world
(42:37):
right and Gilded Balloon will be delighted to produce your play,
Oh my God, Particle Show. It's the Edinburgh Fringe Festival
August second to twenty seven, twenty twenty three. Wait, what
make parent Worldwide? And Gilded Balloon would be delighted to
produce your play th Oh my God Particle show at
the Edinburgh Fringe Festival August second to twenty seven, twenty
twenty three. Higgsy, this is Dune Might We're going to
(43:01):
the Edinburgh Fringe Festival after Siron. I can't wait, can you?
What's super cool is the Gilded Balloon. They're this amazing
mother daughter producing team that has produced the best shows
at the Edinburgh Festival for the last thirty years and
Mick Perrin worldwide, I mean all of them. They're a
(43:23):
phenomenal production group created by Mick Perrin. This guy the
legend of Legends, a total rock star and literally like
the nicest guy ever. So Mick he discovered Eddie Hazard
and Trevor Noah. He started them since their earliest days
and right now they're producing Eddie Hazard's like genius total
version of Dickens' Great Expectations in the West End at
(43:45):
the Garrick Theater after this absolutely sold out run in
New York City with the equally wonderful Arnold Engelman and
west bet. I love that Mick Arnold's Gilded Balloon and
their incredible teams support originality, creativity, live theater and me.
I am just so honored and excited to work with
(44:07):
all these creative wizards. With a special shout out to
Ruben and Harry and everyone involved at Mick Parrin Worldwide
and Gilded Balloon. Thank you, thanks for listening to my
podcast and please come see my play the Oh My
God Particle Show running from August second to twenty seventh,
except August fifteenth at Gilded Balloon at the Edinburgh Fringe
(44:29):
Festival twenty twenty three. I'm gonna be posting all the
information on my Instagram at Dahlia Wild Official. Stay tuned
for more details about more OMGPS live theater shows in London,
Geneva and New York City La outer Space Who Knows.
Thank you for all your support. Join us next week
(44:50):
for more mind blowing guests and some super special news
for my omgpsers about how to win free tickets to
see the Oh My God Particles Show live. Person Thank
you for being part of the OMGPS Club. It's such
a pleasure to have you here. Until next time Habiento.
Remember keep looking up, stay positively charged. We are the stars.
(45:15):
Goodbye for now, Adios a rivederci Abfaersen Habiento. Listen before hearing.
According to quantum theory, this podcast may collapse into another
state if audibly observed
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