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November 3, 2022 47 mins

On this episode, Kay-B is joined by Superfan & social media maven Kayla to chat about GREY'S ANATOMY season 11 episode 11 "All I Could Do Was Cry." We discuss the emotional episode for April & Jackson!

Later, Kay-B chats with Kat, an OB/GYN Nurse, about her fascinating journey into medicine, a case on Osteogenesis imperfecta, and so much more!

On-Call with Kay-B is an iHeart production with lead editing by Randie Chapman of Wordie Productions (@wordieproductions on IG). Please follow Executive Producer & Host, Kay-B, on Instagram & Twitter @TheLadyKayB. For more information about the case highlighted in this episode, read it here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4561136/

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome everyone to a brand new episode of On Call
with KB. I'm your host, KB, and we have a
great segment today where we are giving you all of
the tea about season eleven, episode eleven of Grades Anatomy
called All I could do was cry with the incomparable
amazing social media Maven and former entertainment journalist Kayla. Hey, girl,

(00:39):
that was such an amazing introduction I have I hope
I love up to that, but thank you. This is like,
I'm excited to be here, and you know, you know
I love Grays. It is my longest committed relationships, so
you know this, any chance talk about this is exciting

(01:02):
for me. So thank you for having me. Yes, and
you know you and me both. I mean, this will
likely be my longest committed relationship because they keep going,
so here we are. If they end, you know, maybe
there's a chance, but considering the fact that we're currently
in season nineteen, who knows, um, So for season eleven,

(01:22):
episode eleven, all I could do was cry. I mean,
this is the one of the most incredibly complicated episodes
of Gray's Anatomy. Jackson and April's son has discovered that
he has a rare condition and unfortunately he will not
make it, so they need to you know, deliver and
then say they're goodbyes. And so all of their friends,
all the doctor in the hospitals, just feel such deep empathy,

(01:44):
but they don't really know what to do. Um. Arizona
has been with them on this journey from the beginning,
so she feels a very deep connection to it. UM.
Whereas Dr Herman, who is in charge ak a the
fabulous Gina Davis, UM kind of her off the case
because she knows that, you know, she is going to
be led by her emotions versus kind of being led

(02:06):
by the science from being able to separate the two.
And Dr Herman just you know, doesn't share that same
emotional connection to Jackson in April, so it's easier for
her to kind of boot Arizona off this case. UM.
And then of course elsewhere, a man accidentally shoots his
wife Brenda and end up having a large surprise that

(02:26):
they did not barking for. So on one hand, you're
kind of like Dann girl, I guess it's kind of
good that your husband shot you, because otherwise you wouldn't
know that you're having this surprise baby um and Meredith.
Meredith is trying to see Derek and she really just
is trying to, you know, figure out how to make
that a loone time happen. She's asking Alex to watch
these kids of hers, and Alex is running like she

(02:49):
has typhoid. I mean, I'm confused, like Alex is truly like, no,
I don't want to be around these kids. I don't
know I want to be responsible for children. But Maggie does.
And poor poor Maggie, she hasn't been at the hospital long.
She literally knows no one. Um. I mean, she obviously
knows her biological family. But she's like, I'll do it.
I'll volunteer. You can trust me. I'll pick these kids. So, uh,

(03:10):
interesting episode all around. So so let's dive into it. So, really,
before we get into the episode, I have to ask you,
since this is your longest committed relationship, where were you
when you first started watching Gray's You know, when you
first experienced this show. Um, so I very vividly remember
this was early two thousand and five. I was looked

(03:32):
from the start and look, I'm a child of the
nineties soap eraic for like, I was named after Caleb
Ertney from days of our lives. So like it was
just kind of like in me to like naturally grab
like just be pulled into the gravity of the show.
And of course I loved, you know, being a child

(03:53):
in the nineties, like I love a medical procedural drama,
and this just kind of fell in that line between
you know, medical show and it merged like so perfectly optically. Um,
but the soap like element of that where you do
get invested in these characters and we care about them
so um, that's it just naturally pulled me in. And

(04:15):
then my mom also was in it from the beginning,
so it was like something that we could relate to
and talk about with each other. Um. So I just
naturally kind of fell in love with the writing of
the show and the way it was portraying because what
I think Gray has always did is it's people first. Um. Yes,
there's the medical elements of the show, and they you know,

(04:37):
do their best to say as medically accurate as possible,
but they know it is a people first drama and
you you get wrapped up in their lives. And so
I was very much so hooked from the beginning, and
I like to say, you know, you Meredith's truly probably
the character that's experienced the most trauma out of any character.
I truly don't know another character on TV who's experienced

(04:59):
as much trauma as Meredith. So I think that also
hooks you in. It's people first, because it really is
her journey and we first meet her, she's a mess.
Like she's brilliant, the baby, she's a mess, And so
the highs and the lows of her life I think
are really what kind of drop people in. Yeah, yeah,
I think that that's exactly it. Yeah. Do you have

(05:21):
a favorite episode? Oh goodness, it's the Thanksgiving episode where
George's dad gets shot in there. Um, because it's I
think for me, it's like, yes, like I gravitated towards
it because I'm a huge Bailey fan, and Bailey in
that episode explaining why she likes Thanksgiving and the holidays

(05:44):
and the things she likes to see, and it's I think,
you know, those that are hard to like pull themselves
away from work, you know, there are just elements about
our job that we love, And I love that that
viewpoint into it. Um. And I loved you know, Christina
trying to leave, even Bert taking over for you know,
help Izzy, because Izzy committed herself to this huge dinner
and it didn't happen. And I think for me that

(06:06):
was like the first time you really like, oh, this
is like the real lives, and like some of them
are so into it and so invested and you know,
wanting to move forward in their career, and others just
want to take a stop, like, you know, take a
break of pause. And I think that that's probably one
of my favorites. You know, It's funny because that episode
in particular, and I was like, girl, now, Izzy, now
you have committed to doing what I like to call

(06:29):
Thanksgiving is actually my least favorite, um holiday to manage
and to cook forre And so I did it one
year and I you know, firmly decided I would never
do it again, and I stuck to that. Um it
was just way too overwhelming. Until watching that it kind
of took me back to doing my Thanksgiving where I
was like, oh no, honey, Like as soon as I thought,
I was like, listen, I've already learned this tepe lesson

(06:50):
that easy is learning today. UM. But it also reminds
me that, you know, Grace would actually funny and someone
else that said there were a lot of comedic moments,
and George had a lot of community moments, and it's true,
like especially when his family was involved. UM, And so
I think that that's one of the kind of funnier episodes.
So awesome. Alright, so let's get into this one. This

(07:12):
one is a big emotional episode, and the theme that
I really gravitated to was probably miracles all throughout. So
you know, Amelia is dealing with the fact that she
also lost her own child and that has kind of
hardened her ability to even hope for miracles again because
of that experience. So she becomes the person at the
hospital in this episode who um not only really understands

(07:35):
the depth of pain that April and Jackson are going through, um,
but because of that, she's kind of closed off a
little bit in this episode, particularly with her own patient
who ends up getting a miracle, like he gets his
sight back and it's by her hands. But she can't
even like allow herself to feel joy in that moment
because of everything that's happened to her in the past

(07:57):
and and all of the feelings that are being brought up,
you know, for April and jackson um situation with their son.
So for you kind of what was your favorite scene
this episode and who do you think had the most
character growth. So there's certain episodes I think of Gray's
Anatomy that they kind of digging you, and I think
because there's like a personal connection on my level and

(08:17):
what at Batson in April are going through with things
that have happened in my family, this is one that
sticks for me. Um. But just even going back to Amelia,
that episode of Private Practice to this day haunts me
because it is the storytelling in an episode is beautiful.
The way it was directed and it really was shot

(08:37):
is beautiful because it you are to it is like
a horror story watching everything that Amelia has gone through.
And so if you're a Private Practice and you went
through that journey with her, I think you've also feel
something on this episode. And you know, I will say
she's the one that the most character growth, like the
most growth, And I think that when I say that

(08:58):
about Amelia, it's she could have we've seen her like
when you know early in later seasons when Meredith you know,
gets attacked by the patient that was in the Feugu state,
like you see that She's is very easy for men
to get triggered. And why say that there's a lot
of character growth in this episode for her. Is that's

(09:18):
what you expect, is to see Amelia really go right
back and you know, you know, falling out of being
from clean anywhere. And um, you know that's part of it.
I think that you're right. You know, that episode of
private Practice with Amelia was heartbreaking to watch, um, and
so just having her in this space, being here, working

(09:39):
in this hospital and being able to show a new
layer of strength. Um, yes, she is kind of a pessimist,
but we understand why she is showing the strength though, however,
to remain clean, to remain sober. Um. You know, even
though she is being triggered very heavily by this day
until I do but she ate. You know that she

(10:01):
has this moment with Owen at the end of the
episode where they're able to just talk through it because
it's necessary. Now I will say, man, she was given
that in terms of business. I mean, you know, like
she definitely was like laying into her. But Owen kind
of understands the trauma underneath that exchange, and uh so

(10:23):
it's nice for him to be able to kind of
take her to the side For me this episode, I
think it's actually going to be April who had the
most character growth, Um, And that's because you know, when
we first meet April, April is very gung ho about
her faith, and it's interesting to see how this personal
situation rattles and shakes her faith in that way. She

(10:44):
is truly upset with God um for allowing kind of
Samuel to go through this, and she's blaming herself in
a lot of ways for not being a safe space
for her unborn child. That's the way that she kind
of use it. And it's really Jackson and who I
don't know how to say this, but doesn't really have faith,
you know, like he he doesn't really believe even when

(11:06):
they're together. But it's April's goodness that he always looks
to kind of as his guidance in life. It's interesting
to see how he starts to lean into faith a
little bit more when she starts to pull away. And
you know, when she goes to work and she's really
trying to just hold herself together and she feels like
the one thing that she can do and she can

(11:28):
be in control of is going down to the clinic.
She gets more than she bargained for. And I think
her interacting with that patient who will excuse me, the
patient's wife or fiance rather who had just died, I
think kind of softens her a little bit and allows
her to accept what is to come with Samuel. So

(11:50):
April's faith is very central in the show, and I
think I want to say it's because the actress who
played her also has like a very strong faith in
real I've been wanted to kind of incorporate that into April,
is my understand standing, and so, um, I know that
it's like a central theme, but just being able to
see her kind of express her frustration with God and

(12:12):
with her faith in this moment because she is losing
her son, Um, it shows a lot of character growth
for April in my personal opinion. So you know, they
are obviously facing unimaginable circumstances. So you know, how do
you feel about April and Jackson's kind of growth and
going through this together because we all know what happens
after this and it is not a relationship essentially levels

(12:35):
But yeah, I think you know, because I never said
what my favorite episode was my favorite scene was, but
my favorite my favorite scenes are between Jackson and April
because it definitely it is the most subtle foreshadowing and
the way that their relationship is going to further go
on this cushion pool given this traumatic event. And I

(12:58):
think Jackson shows a lot out of growth in this
and I say that because you see that later when
you know April's kind of running and running away from
everything that happened, you know, to Samuel. Jackson, on the
other hand, is running towards it and trying to deal
with it all together. And so you start to see
like they're getting through this, but you can kind of
start to see the fractures a little bit. You know,

(13:20):
it is hard because Jackson is not faith based as
much as April is, and that's been a huge portion
of what their relationship is about. And so it's really
nice to see them, you know, kind of being support
like Jackson really trying to give her her space and
manage expectations. And what I do like is even Catherine
not forcing anything or you know, forcing Jackson to feel

(13:43):
some kind of way. Jackson's allowed to feel his own emotions,
which I think is something different. We really had seen
that yet, um and you'll start to see it later
where Katherine does kind of influence some of those things.
But I do think because there wasn't a lot of
Catherine influence, you're able to kind of see Jackson enabled
just breathe and live through this, you know, moment together.
And that's what was really nice to see. You know,

(14:05):
I think that you touched on something that's really important,
because Catherine really does serve as like the third in
their relationship, like the majority of the time, and she
is heavily involved in Jackson's life in a way that
is not necessarily the most healthy. She's involved to a
point where it's like, girl, you need to relax. And

(14:25):
in this episode, the whole time, I kept thinking, thank goodness,
you're able to like manage what's going on with you
and Richard, because that's more important. Like I understand, as
a parent, you always want to protect your child, and
in this scenario, she wants to protect Jackson because that's
just her natural instinct. But he has to go through this,
and he has to go through this with his wife,
and you know, they have to go through this kind

(14:47):
of grieving process of what is and what was and
what they had hoped for together. And I don't want
to say that I like that Richard is a distraction,
but I think that he needs to kind of be
a action. Like obviously, like her and Richard aren't on
speaking terms when she's back at the hospital supporting Jackson
in April, but I think that he needed to be

(15:10):
there and they needed to kind of have this communication
between the two of them, if it makes sense, because
she needed support as well, because she's also greeting you know,
this is also her grandchild, but she also needed to
be all the way. I don't know another way to
say it. Catherine is always in the way. Sometimes it's helpful,
sometimes it's not. And I think that she needed to

(15:30):
kind of allow them the space to go through this,
and so I'm like, thank goodness. Um, So this procedure
obviously that April is undergoing, it is high risk, but
it's necessary. And so while we learn kind of a
lot about the procedure that's going to happen, we don't
really see very much until the end when she um
kind of finally accepts that this is going to be
the end and she and Jackson are going to have

(15:52):
to bury Samuel. But what we do see we also
see another kind of paralleled complicated procedure for Brenda, who's
has been accidentally shot her and you know that pellets
after her heart, but not before she has to give
birth to this surprise baby. So I loved the parallel
storytelling in this, and I love when Grace does this
actually when they kind of mirror what's going on with

(16:12):
the main characters to patients. So were you hooked as
a viewer by kind of the shock value and the
high stakes of both of these medical cases. So for me,
what I do love about this episode is they were
able to interweave the faith portion of it. I like
there he said, the theme of miracles that you can't

(16:33):
always explain why one is the other way, why Brenda
has a healthy baby, has never been able to get pregnant,
had been trying get shot that sends her into labor.
And then you know, April has been doing everything she's
supposed to be doing and it just so happens that
her baby has this, you know, very rare genetic disorder.

(16:53):
And I think the birth that you know Brenda went through,
you know, you're kind of experienced it from two ends.
You've got Herman and Arizona, who are just you know,
distraught about what's happening. And then you've got Bailey and
Callie just like you have to make it for this baby.
Your baby is here. You didn't think you were able

(17:14):
to have children, like it would save her and I
think it would be devastating to see the mom lost
even though she just had the baby. And then see
April is able to you know, give birth to like
a baby, and maybe that was the miracle that happened.
And I think there's a lot of different ways, but
this was very realistic um in a way that it

(17:36):
wasn't wrapped up in a nice shiny bow where everything
went everybody's way. Not everything happens that way medically, and
I think that that's where as the you know, it
wasn't necessarily like the shock value is more like there
are high stakes and that you never know what is
going to happen. And you see that a lot of
what April is doing is questioning that and like how
do you come to reckon with the fact that this

(17:59):
isn't fair? She says that so many times was like
how is this fair? And you know, didn't have Brenda
on her side of like completely going through life, and
you know, people don't know that they're pregnant. There's a
lot of people, and there's a lot of people. There's
a lot of people who don't gain weight in their
periods continue even being pregnant, and you just don't know

(18:20):
because at the end of the day, we have so
much medical research, but things just happen and we can't
explain them. And I think that that's where the storytelling
really when in the parallels that they drew, or just
extremely compelling to watch as a paper. Yeah, like you
just that's the thing about life. Life is not fair.
So when April kept saying it, it's like, you know,

(18:42):
it's not fair. We are dealt a lot of different
cards in life. And I think that's what that episode
was meant to show us. There are uncertainties almost at
every turn in every single human beings life. And Brenda,
you know, accidentally gets shot while they're de hunting, and
she is pissed at her husband, like to the point

(19:03):
where she's like, I might actually shoot you once I'm
done with this, Like once they get me back together,
I might actually shoot you. And then out of nowhere
here she is in labor and giving birth and you know,
just wanting this baby for so many years, and her
husband even says, that's why we started deer hunting, that's
why we started vacationing. Once the doctors kept confirming over

(19:27):
and over and over and over again that we would
not be parents, we chose ourselves and we said, let's
make life an adventure, just the two of us. So
they just lived life to the fullest, doing everything that
they wanted to do, and now they have this miracle.
Where As you know, April, to your point, cannot control
that her baby has osteogenesis imperfecta, Like it's nothing that's

(19:50):
in her control, It's nothing that she could have prevented.
It really is just a rare genetic condition that I've
been And so I found that this episode was beautiful
in the way that they lead things together and even
how the fiance who just lost her husband kind of
also triggered April and reminded her to live. Like, I

(20:11):
don't know a better way to say it, but she
reminded her that Samuel's death is not the end of
her life, if that makes sense, and it is a
heartbreaking moment in her life, but it doesn't mean that
she won't have kids in the future, you know, it
doesn't mean that her life is over. It does mean that,
you know, she will deal with this loss and this
grief for the rest of her life, and she will
be sad for what was for Samuel and the things

(20:34):
that she wanted for Samuel's life. But it doesn't mean
that she can't try again. And I think her having
that conversation with that fiance whose partner had just passed
away kind of reminded her of that um And so
it's interesting because it is a parallel storyline. But she
didn't even meet Brenda, which it might have been cool
if she could have kind of you know, met Brenda

(20:55):
too and seeing that miracle in real life, but she
doesn't even know that that's happening the hospital right next
to her, right. So I think that's one of the
best things about Grays is how they're able to layer
things so seamlessly um in that way. Well, thank you,
thank you, thank you with so much for joining the show.
I had a great time, you know, I always loved
talking about Grays and the nuances and all of the

(21:18):
highs and lows, the ups and down. So I really
appreciate you taking time to join the show. No, thank you,
Like I said, anytime I can talk about Grays and
my very very very committed relationship where I just can't quit.
It's fine. I think. You know, it's one of those
shows that you know, you see tweets of like how

(21:39):
have you watched the show for nineteen seasons? And honestly,
it's because the storylines continue to grow and you're invested
at this point so like there's not really anywhere for
you to go if you've been in it for so long.
So you know, it's we've been able to go on
like very real and interesting journeys with these characters. So
thank you so much for allowing me to come on

(22:01):
and talk about the show because I I love it
no matter how much it hurts me of course, and
you know what, You're right, I know it needs to end,
but it's not. And yet I'm still here and so
like through the highs and lows, the ups and downs,
the writer strikes and everything in between, I am still here.

(22:23):
It is what it is because I will be here
to the end. Well, thank you guys for listening, and
now for a quick break before we dive into our
chat with Nurse Cat about real life cases of osteogenesis
and perfecta as seen in this episode of Gray's Anatomy.
Stay tuned. Today we are diving into season eleven, episode eleven.

(22:48):
That's right, eleven eleven of Gray's Anatomy called All I
could do was cry with the generous, thoughtful, and amazingly
talented nurse Cat. So Hi, Kat, Welcome to on Call
with KB Hi. Thank you so much for having me.
Glad to be here. So I asked Cat to join
today just because of her expertise and the O B

(23:12):
slash G Y N space. So first I just have
to say, you know, this episode was incredibly complicated. It's
very very very sad uh in a lot of ways.
Has the central characters in this that we're going to
be focusing on our April and Jackson, and you know,
they have a situation with baby Samuel we know is

(23:33):
named by the end of the episode, but their son
has a rare genetic disorder and unfortunately, um, you know,
they have to make the very heartbreaking decision to terminate
the pregnancy. So before we dive into all of the
details of the episode, I just want to ask Cat,
tell me a little bit about your life. You know,
how did you get into medicine and was there a

(23:53):
personal connection to medicine or just like a general interest
in science growing up. You know, I think I was
is just born to be at nurse. I've always been
the caretaker and my family and just taking care of
everybody since since I can remember, since I was a
little bit a little bity five year old taking care
of my dogs, you know. So, UM, I think it
just evolved into that. And then um, then when I

(24:15):
when it was time to go to college, I um,
I was either going to be a teacher or a nurse,
and with nursing you can do boths So I am
had a few just experiences in the hospital that I
dearly loved, and I always wanted to be a mom.
And one of my friends, it was a nurse at
the time, told me I went to nursing school to
be a just to be the best mom I could be.
So that that just did it for me, just hearing

(24:35):
those words, and I found that to be very true.
Oh that's really sweet, going to nursing school to be
the best mom you can be. I mean, there are
a lot of a lot of similarities. I can imagine,
just learning a new level of patience and understanding right, um,
in your profession and in motherhood. Yes, that is true, absolutely,
and then Obie just fits it perfectly, helping new moms

(24:57):
become moms, and I just love it. I just can't
think of any thing that I'd rather do, even thirty
five years after I started. So I love it. So
what was your relationship with Gray's Anatomy? Like? Had you
seen the show before? Were you a fan? Or is
this the first episode you've watched. I always like to
ask people because it very well maybe you know what.

(25:17):
Actually I have seen this and pieces of Gray's Anatomy,
but raising triplets, I rarely get control of the remote
at my house, so I usually have to watch what
they're watching. But um, you know, I had never said
and watched a whole episode all the way through. But
I love to do that on various medical shows, where
I can sort of pick apart what they do and say, oh, yeah,

(25:37):
that would never happen, that would never happen in the era. Yes,
that was right on the money. I love to do
that sort of thing, but I've never I don't think
i'd ever seen a Gray's Anatomy episode before this one
all the way through. Anyway, Oh my gosh, it was wonderful.
Though I loved it. I thought it was very very
very well done, very well done now, I mean managing
triplets and being a nurse, how you balance it all?

(26:01):
And also, now that you've watched this kind of full
episode of Gray's Anatomie, are you going to try to
convert the triplets to watch too? Absolutely? Yes, yes, yes.
They usually picked my shows for me, but now I'm
gonna I'm gonna start watching them all on Netflix because
at it, I loved it. I thought it was so great.
I just watched it many many times just to appreciate
the emotion. I thought they did a very very good job,

(26:23):
April and Jackson, of capturing all the range of emotions
that people go through when they're having to make a
decision like they had to make. I just thought they
did a phenomenal job, really really great, awesome. Well, you
know what, what is just kind of diving into a
bit more of your background, um in nursing, kind of
what's the most extreme O B case you've seen thus

(26:45):
far in your career and wasn't anything remotely similar, you know,
kind of to the osteogenesis and perfected that we see
um for Jackson and in April Son in this episode,
you know I did. I did have a patient that
had the osteogenesis im perfect of just the first one,
not the one that was as severe. There's two, two

(27:05):
different actually I think there's three different types. She had
the milder form, but um, they did encourage her to
deliver prematurely and then you know, they basically they found
out a little bit late in her case. Um, but
she came in and she had a degree of bone
generation herself. UM, So she came in, we sectioned her,
and her baby lived for several years actually, but did

(27:29):
have a lot of fracturing and just a lot of
pain and all, and didn't live too terribly long. That
was many many years ago, probably when I first started nursing,
so they didn't know everything that they know now. But
I think the most interesting case I had was when
I was first a nurse. I had a baby with
something called holo pro encephale, which is an optic nerve malformation.

(27:50):
And the baby is born and has no eyeballs and
has basically no nose or facial features and just like
a little trunk like an elephant. And it's really hard
to get um to get people through delivering a baby
like that it doesn't look normal, you know, and you
have to really be very sensitive to the fact that
this is their child and they're going to remember everything

(28:13):
and anything about how people felt about their baby and
what their baby look like. And you know, it's just
that sticks out the most prominently in my head. You know,
we don't see a lot of crazy things um nowadays
because we have such great ultrasound and they scan everybody
UM so much that they will encourage things before they
get to us, or a lot of times babies that

(28:35):
have a lot of serious malformations will just spontaneously misscarry
as well. But I think the Holo pro and cephinily
are those that are really visual are so much more difficult,
you know, as far just visually accepting you know, my
baby isn't isn't perfect, and you know, although I love
him or her very much, you know, just a lot harder,

(28:55):
I think too, to get people through that. Initially, Yeah, no, right,
I was gonna say all of the babies are perfect,
you know, And so I know, before we get kind
of into the emotional piece of working in oh B
because I know it has to be very very emotional
kind of working in here, but also kind of being

(29:16):
a medical professionally have to separate your emotions from from
the work oftentimes. But before we talk about that, you
did mention something about technology, and so how interesting has
it been to kind of see medicine shape and transform
over time, Because it's interesting to hear you say that,
you know, the things that you saw when you first
started nursing, you don't really see anymore because of the

(29:39):
advancements of technology. And how does that like change the
course of like how you treat these patients. Well, you know,
they're a lot of times, you know, if you have
patients that are going for good care, they'll do the
blood work and the testing alpha feold protein and those
sort of things, and then the early twelve week scans
that see a lot a lot of things that you
wouldn't have seen before. When I first started nursing in night,

(30:02):
they would just do a twenty week scan of you know,
all the parts, make sure everything was there and working.
Now they do the nucle fold scanning and look at
everything so so detailed. Even when I had my triplets,
I was amazed that they could see the gender at
um you know, like thirteen weeks. They just blew it
up but I was, you know, before people had to
wait till twenty weeks just to know the gender if

(30:23):
they wanted to know. So that just ultrasound alone and
then the blood work is just phenomenal. We you know,
we rarely see babies within encephali, which is no brain covering,
which is a neural tube defect. A lot of neural
tube defects out there from full of acid deficiency. Still
if people aren't getting prenatal care. But when they do, UM,

(30:43):
they just start encouraging them too, you know. I hate
to say it, but to terminate sooner, you know, And
that's a lot more accepted than it used to be,
you know, first some it's still very very hard, and
it is for for me too. I didn't grow up
in growing up thinking that that was okay. But I've
had to make some adjustments as a nurse because it's
not my decision. UM even the hospital where I work

(31:06):
at UM first it was I don't know if I'm
allowed to mention the name of it, but Georgie bab
just didn't do uh therapeutic abortions back when I first
started either, so we would have to send patients out
if they did come in and needed determination, we would
have to to send them out. But now it's evolved
into a place where we can still do that in
the hospital setting, just with proper approval if need be.

(31:28):
The political part of it's changed over the years too,
which is interesting. So it has and I have found that,
you know, like women and and people who are birthing parents,
I should say, um, not just specifically women, but birthing
parents should always have kind of quality access to healthcare,
especially especially in these high risk situations where you know,

(31:52):
like in the instance of Jackson in April as well
on the show, it's really unfortunate because their baby, they
knew almost supply that the baby would not survive, but
this procedure was medically necessary in order to save April's
life as well. And so you know, that's oftentimes what happens,
um in cases, heartbreaking cases where you cannot save both

(32:14):
of them, then you need to be able to save
at least one of them, and there needs to be
a safe and healthy environment for that to occur. And so, UM,
it was good to see that, like, you know, April
had everything she needed in the hospital to get that done. Um,
I don't know that you know, It's one thing I'm
not sure I would have wanted to have it at

(32:36):
the hospital that I worked at, and just only because
you know, you're so close to everyone that you work with.
You see them every day, um, and there are a
lot of deep relationships and friendships and bonds that are
built there. But I don't know if I could go
back to work every day, do you know what I mean?
Like having had had that procedure done there specifically? Absolutely,

(32:57):
you know, they're they're definitely pros and cons to deliver
in a place where you know everybody you know. I
side story, I optened to have my children at another
hospital that I moonlighted pr in at when I delivered
and they didn't have anything wrong, but I was at
the high risk pregnancy with triplets and I just didn't
want the people that I work with to see me
so vulnerable. I was just very fearful of that for

(33:17):
some reason, and I just felt like I should be
somewhere where they didn't know me quite as well. But
on hindsight, you know, I I don't know, I could
see when you have a baby with anomalies, definitely, the
support can be really good. It just depends on the
people and the people that you that you work with.
But yeah, I think it would be really hard when
you have an anomaly because people don't know what to say,

(33:38):
and you know, it's it's hard. It's hard, and then
to show back up in there after you've delivered. But
I think in April's case, you know, she got just
what she needed to be able to go through with
with the induction and having Jackson's mom um that told
her how she was going to be able to do it,
which I thought that was just beautiful. You know, she

(33:58):
wasn't sure she could go through with the induction process,
and then to have her um, a woman with the
experience in that department, come through and say this is
exactly what you need to do. Because people when they're
upset and and grieving, they can't think clearly. They just
see the herd in the pain. They can't see, oh,
I need to do this, this and this to get
through it and then then I'll deal with it. I

(34:19):
thought she did a beautiful job. I think Catherine is
her name, Katherine. I thought she was phenomenal. I did
see her scrubbed in, so I was wondering if she
was just you know, yeah, a jack of all trades.
But yeah, she was amazing. I thought she did a beautiful,
beautiful job. And then I also thought I thought that
the piece where the woman that came Brenda, that came
in with an accidental gunshot wound that supposedly couldn't have children,

(34:42):
um a little interesting. And then all of a sudden
they're fixing to put her out to relieve the gun
fragments in her neck, and then then they see a
baby coming. I thought that was very interesting. But but
what a what an interesting way to tie into the
miracles still happen sort of piece that everybody dreams about
when they're going through what April and Jackson went through.

(35:04):
I thought that was beautifully done as well. Yeah, you know,
I have to ask you, though, with such complex cases,
because you've had a patient with osteogenesis imperfect a, you know,
like what is generally your first course of action, and
since becoming a nurse, how has that like shifted your
how you manage certain relationships because even with your patients, well,

(35:27):
having had the patient with osteogenesis imperfect we delivered her
by C section because they thought there was a chance
that her baby could live, and that was the safest passage,
you know, the most gentlest way out was a was
a C section. You know, it's it's it's really hard.
I was not necessarily pro even therapeutic abortion growing up,
just the way I was raised, But as a nurse,

(35:50):
I definitely have a different take on that because you
realize what people what people go through, and and you know,
when you have a baby that hasn't anomaly, that's not
compatible with life, you know, it's like I thought, April
brought out too, is my baby hurting? Is my baby
in pain from all these broken bones in utero? And
you know, yes, I'm sure that baby is feeling pain.

(36:10):
And why would you want your child to suffer, you know,
needlessly if you have the ability to do something about it.
So you know, yeah, I definitely have to change the
way I feel about about those sort of things and
then take myself completely out of it because my job
is to support them emotionally, physically, spiritually whatever they need,

(36:31):
you know. So definitely definitely, yeah. I mean it doesn't
seem to be easy, you know, at at all. Um So,
the case I found for today's show was from in
which the first trimester ultrastound didn't show the diagnosis of
osteogenesism perfect a type two. And so by the second trimester,

(36:53):
you know, when it was confirmed and the parents found out, UM,
they decided to keep the baby, and so when the
child was born, UM it automatically just almost immediately went
into respiratory distress. So unfortunately that baby only ended up
living twenty five days. And so I know that you

(37:13):
said that you saw that case. You know where last
you checked, that baby was at least three years old,
right um that UM, you know, they had definitely made
it to their their toddler years. Have you seen any
more cases of this, you know, kind of where um
it wasn't predicted kind of sonographically. First, I have seen different,

(37:38):
you know, different anomalies, not necessarily the osteo genesis imperfective,
but you know, we have unfortunately seen some of those.
I remember having a lady that had UM. She was
urach negative and lived out in rural Georgia, and for
some reason they were bringing her downtown to deliver with us.
I don't remember the exact circumstances, but she had never
gotten rogan before, which UM. Mothers that don't get rogam

(38:01):
um that our arch negative if the father is positive
and the baby is positive, the mother will build up
antibodies against the pregnancy, and the more pregnancy she has,
the more damage it does to the baby's little system. UM,
and the first baby she had was fine, The second
baby was a little jaundice. The third baby had some
um congestive heart failure, but they were able to correct it.

(38:23):
But the fourth baby had full on set fetle high drops,
which is multi organ system failure because the mother's red
blood cells attacked the baby. And so we had to
do an emergency C section, and um, we delivered this
little baby that had no chance of making it, you know, unfortunately,
but we just we had to make a quick decision

(38:44):
and um, we just had to go. And UM. Nowadays,
ultrasounds a little bit more readily available. We have portable
units on the floor you can look and see. We
just didn't have that available back then. So we delivered
this little baby and had no idea what we were
going to deliver. And the baby just looked like, I
hate to say a little sponge, but he did because

(39:04):
his little arms and legs just we're not getting the
blood flow that they needed. He had major congestive heart failure,
and you know, I'm amazed that he survived at all,
just just in the state he was in. You know,
he barely looked like a baby, to be honest with you,
and to to show him to his mother was really
really hard, you know. But you know, when we explained

(39:24):
what happened, she understood and and you know, but it
was still I'll never forget just the look on her
face trying to find something normal about her little baby.
And it was just so hard. But he had the
most precious little feet, you know, that was what we
focused on. But um, yeah, I hope I answered your question.
I kind of no, because I'm just you know, curious,

(39:46):
how do you especially in this scenario and even in
the case that that I saw. You know, this birthing
parent was twenty nine years old, and you know, um,
they call austeogenesis and perfected the brittle bone disease for
a re sason. But like you said, there is a
hereditary component. It makes a lot of sense. So all right,

(40:07):
from your perspective, as we wrapped this up, did you
think that this was an accurate and a good representation
of this particular case? Um? And really just you know,
kind of how things are done in oh bi when
you have like such high risk cases UM that come through,

(40:28):
you know, did you think this was kind of a
realistic UM portrayal of this really really tough case as
a medical professional, did you feel like anything was lacking
or that you wanted to see more of I thought
they did a beautiful job with April and Jackson. I
thought that that was just amazing. I really thought that
that um that they portrayed that wonderfully. I thought the

(40:52):
Brenda's situation, you know, was a little bit of a stretch,
but it's still tied everything together so perfectly. I thought
it was very very well done. Compared to some of
the medical shows I've caughten glimpses of over the years.
You know, some of them they have impossible situations that
start in the e er and just everything happens in

(41:12):
the e er and it never moved past the e R.
But UM, I thought that just capturing the emotion of
that whole experience, that they did a beautiful job. Just
everybody absolutely perfect, and it almost seemed like the person
writing the show had been through it, you know, because
they just seemed to touch on everything. You know. Oh
and you know, I actually have to ask a question
about genetic testing because they did not um, you know,

(41:36):
they didn't mention anything about the parents having genetic testing
prior to So how has actually like the rise of
genetic testing because I found that more people are wanting
to do it, How has that also changed in an
oh BI, you know kind of through the years. Absolutely.
I think it's that's why we don't see near as
many cases like this, you know, at our level anymore,

(41:57):
because they encourage just termination and way earlier once you
get past a certain number of weeks. You know, they
when I say termination talking like a d n C
versus actually going through the labor and delivering the baby.
You know, there's there's different ways to do it, and
and and all of that. But I think with the
with the rise of genetic testing, UM, there's so many

(42:18):
more options available that you can see potential problems so
far in advance, even twelve week ulture sounds. You see
things that tell you, hey, this isn't isn't going to
be a viable pregnancy, and then they can choose to
terminate a lot earlier. And you know, for some terminating
it eight weeks is just as hard, you know, just

(42:39):
absolutely as hard as as if the baby were you know,
twenty two weeks, twenty eight weeks. But for some it
makes it a little bit more tolerable, you know, or
if they know ahead of time that genetics won't work
there or even you know, options for assisted reproductive technology
that can help with that too, like egg donate and

(43:00):
sperm donation if there's things in people's backgrounds that don't mix,
you know, if that that sounds a little bit out there,
but but no, no, no, I mean it's the wave
of the future of medicine, and you know, a lot
of people use it. It's been helpful for a lot
of people who are on their journey to becoming parents,
and so I think it is very admirable, especially for
those individuals who, um, you know, are wanting to help

(43:23):
love ones, families, friends, even strangers, um help them achieve
their parenting dreams. I think that it's it's very admirable,
you know, um, and a good way to go for
those individuals. So yeah, I mean, I I like that
there are a bit more options for people because anything
is possible, and while the human body is so remarkable,

(43:45):
we each have our own journeys with these bodies, you know,
and they're doing a lot of work all the time.
So I like to be, you know, really gracious and
be like, oh, thank you for all this hard work
that you're doing. Um, and also know that it's incredibly
fragile and at any moment, you know, anything can go
or I so UM, you know it's nice that you
know there are people in that there are other ways

(44:05):
and other avenues to parenthood, um that we didn't see
fifty sixty seventy years ago. So yeah, absolutely, And I
had to use one of those, you know, for my
own personal in my own personal journey. And you know,
I'd never thought in a million years I would have
to do to make that decision. But when when I
had to, it was there, and I of course chose
it because I wanted to be a mom more than anything.

(44:28):
And I didn't even it didn't take me more than
half a second to say, absolutely, let me take full
advantage of what's available to me because I want to
be a mom and that's my goal, and my goal
is to have healthy children. So I had to have
an egg donor to conceive my my triplets, and uh,
you know, I never thought in a million years that
would be me, you know, in college, I'm thinking maybe
I should donate my eggs to someone that needs them,

(44:49):
you know, just like people do. Um, not to come
to find out that I was never going to be
able to do that, you know, on down the road.
I had no idea so until I started the process
of trying and to have a baby and couldn't you know,
on my own. So yeah, I'm so thankful for that technology.
And you know, then when I had to use it myself. Um,

(45:09):
I think working in and Obie, seeing all these moms
and all the things that they go through gave me
hope that it could happen for me too. I might
have to use a few, um borrow a few ingredients
from other places, but you know, it gave me hope
seeing seeing women coming in and not giving up after
even recurrent miscarriage with babies that are you know normal,

(45:31):
say they have their water breaks early, or you know,
they go into preterm labor, they have an incompetent cervix
and the baby delivers prematurely and doesn't make it. Those
losses are you know, just as hard as as the
ones that have you know, anomalies. Yeah, I mean, you know,
so many things can happen. But I think that even

(45:52):
in the end of this episode, it's still a story
of hope. Like even even for Jackson in April, you know,
even in the face of the unimaginable, think it has
stole a story of hope. And just thank you so
so much for coming on the show and sharing your
stories and your patients personal patient experiences. Really really appreciate
it was a delight to have you on and to

(46:13):
just be able to talk through this. So thank you
so much. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
I appreciate you and what you do well. Thanks you too.
Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of On Call
with Kabe. New episodes drop on Thursdays. Well that's it

(46:34):
for this episode of On Call with Kabe. Join us
each and every Thursday for brand new episodes where I
chat with an expert and a super fan about the
science behind the scenes. Until then, listen to On Call
with Kab on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Kay - B

Kay - B

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