October 13, 2022 • 47 mins
On this episode, Kay-B is joined by Superfan & Epidemiologist, Cherra (@WildYoungCharm) to chat about GREY'S ANATOMY season 3, episode 14 "Wishin' & Hopin'." We discuss the woman with toxic blood and all of the relationship drama. Later, Kay-B chats with award-winning director, Julie Anne Robinson (@julieannerobinsondirector), about her professional expertise working on medical dramas, her personal health scares, the complexities of directing this episode that highlights blood toxicity, and so much more!
On-Call with Kay-B is an iHeart production with lead editing by Randie Chapman of Wordie Productions (@wordieproductions on IG). Please follow Executive Producer & Host, Kay-B, on Instagram & Twitter @TheLadyKayB. For more information about the case highlighted in this episode, read it here: https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/analysis-of-a-toxic-death
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to a brand new episode of On Call with KB,
the show where we take some of the episodes of
your favorite medical dramas and dive into whether or not
they are scientifically and medically real. This season, I'm focused
on Grey's Anatomy and for this very special episode, I
have acclaimed director Julianne Robinson here to discuss the episode
where we have a woman with toxic blood. But before
(00:37):
I dive in with Julianne to discuss the technical aspects
of directing this episode alongside some of her personal medical stories,
I talked to my friend and epidemiologists Sharah, and we
dive into all of the hottest water cooler moments, including
some piping hot relationship drama. So stay tuned, you don't
want to miss ye. Welcome, Share Hi. Thanks for inviting me. Yes,
(01:11):
of course. So let's dive right in here because this
episode is a doozy. In this episode, Ellis is lucid again,
which may or may not cause a lot of problems
for Meredith. Uh. It seems like everyone is having an
official relationship talk or relationship issue. But I mean, when
are they not on grace? And we have this case,
(01:35):
this mysterious case of a woman who ends up having
toxic blood. So, first, what is your favorite scene this
episode that is such as Howard choice, because I love
this episode, like this is one of my top five
of the entire series for me. So favorite scenes, Um,
I'm gonna have to go with like I feel like
(01:57):
this episode was like p Kelly Addison friendship. So the
scene where Kelly's teasing Addison about looking at Karev is
probably my favorite. I felt like that's also the scene
where like Kelly is really trying to I guess, get
everyone else's approval about her marriage to George in order
(02:19):
to make her feel better about how it happened. Like
it's so interesting to me because she is looking before
positive reinforcement, positive feedback from everyone. But a really, girl,
if you're not okay with this small engagement ring and
this biggest shotgun wedding, then you need to talk to
George about it. Like we for sure knew it was
(02:40):
doomed from this point. Yes, because she was putting so
much pressure on George. I felt like like this entire episode,
she is like George, and you are just you know,
letting your friends tell you this is a bad idea
When really girl, deep down the person who thinks that's
a bad idea, is you George is fine exactly is
(03:01):
getting her own decision there yes, desperately regretting it. And
it's so funny because you know, this isn't the only
relationship that's kind of rocky this episode, as we see
with Christina and Burke, so you know, Burke proposes, he
gets Christina exactly what she wanted quote unquote this in
(03:21):
terms of the ring right, and Christina has given him
an answer. Christina did not want this marriage, like I
don't know why they dragged it out so long, but
like it was clear that this was not going to
be for her. It's so interesting because I feel like
in this season of Gray's, what we see is the
women kind of like I don't want to say, we're
(03:44):
beelling but not really wanting the traditional things that the
men want in this and so you know, oftentimes in
TV shows, you know, the trope is that women are
the ones who want the white peak events, the husband,
the kids. But literally, in this episode alone, you see
like Kelly and Christina specifically are like non, I don't
(04:06):
know about all that. And it's funny that Kellie is
looking to Addison for approval, whose marriage literally imploded right
in front of her eyes, and she's like, girl, aren't
you so excited? And Addison like, girl, if this is
what you want? I mean, I guess like I don't
really necessarily do marriage well, but if this is what
you want, girl. Sure. Kudos to Allison for Addison for
(04:28):
being the supportive friend though, because she was like, Okay,
that's what you want right for you? Right like? And
that brings us to more relationship issues. So Ellis is lucid,
and you know, she knows nothing about Meredith's life because
she thinks it is five years in the past, so
(04:50):
she doesn't know that, you know, um, she doesn't know
that Gray went to medical school, that she's done with
medical school, that she's now the relationship with her attending,
that she lives in her house with a multitude of
other people, and that she has Alzheimer's. So ellis coming
(05:11):
back is really challenging for their relationship because she was
always so very hard on Meredith. You know, we have
seen up until this point to season three, just not
only through a lot of flashbacks, but even through her
current relationship with her while she has Alzheimer's, is that
she's very cold. Um, she's very hard on her. She's
(05:31):
always pressing her to be the best, and she doesn't
give her a lot of love. And it's so interesting
because when we see Ellis's softness come back, it's only
what she's talking to Richard. Yeah, Ellis is an experience.
Not a good experience, but an experience. Yeah, and you
learned so much. It's it's heartbreaking on one hand because
you know, Christina is her best friend and she's finally
(05:53):
meeting her mom for the first time i'd say truly right,
Like she's finally meeting who you know, Meredith as as
constantly talking about and in the childhood, and she's meeting
her and she's engrossed by her because she is a
brilliant doctor. But she's a terrible mom. Like I think
we can all say that, like Alzheimer's decided she was
a terrible mom, So I think, like it's pretty clear
(06:16):
she's a terrible mother. This was so hard to watch
just because like throughout these scenes, like she shows more
affection to Christina than she knows her own daughter. So
you kind of start to understand why this isn't really
the gift to Meredith that everyone else is telling her
it is yes, and everyone keeps being like, you know,
she'll probably only be lucid for twenty four hours, so
(06:37):
you really want to take this in. And Meredith is like,
you know, I have a lot of traumatic memories of
dealing with my mom, Like she was much closer to
Thatcher because Thatcher was more loving um and he also
just spent more time with her because Alis was constantly
in surgeries, constantly working, and so it's very different. And
I just feel like, you know, everyone's pushing this type
(06:59):
of relationship on them, but that's not what they have.
And it's interesting because they're finally able to see what
their own two eyes. And even Derek. Derek's like, oh,
I'm sure your mother can't be that Badny. He came
out of that room like he saw ghost truly, like
like he was in Ghostbusters, ran right on back out like, oh, dang,
your mama is exactly what you said. She's like, why
is no one listening to me? Like I'm trying to
(07:20):
tell you this is who she is. Fundamentally. If you
want to see a softer side of her, invite Richard
in here, because that's the only way you're gonna get
her to be, you know, anything other than harsh. Really,
the trauma on that man's face. Listen the trauma and
Richard's face too, because Richard also looked like he saw
a ghost. And their dianamic has always been so interesting
(07:41):
to me because if I'm being quite honest, I never
really saw them together. Like I get that their draw was,
you know, kind of being the underdog and advancing in medicine,
and that's how they got connected. But I still know
I don't think Elise is capable of being in a
healthy romantic relationship at all. So yeah, it kind of
(08:03):
feels hostage situation. E Like just Richard is a little
too I don't know, like his personality seems far too
docile for Ellis. Yeah, like that was a very forced relationship.
I don't get the like the deep romance that they
try to make it out to be. No, especially not now,
(08:24):
and obviously like we both know that they either way,
like they were both having an affair during this time,
But I don't even get the passionate aspect of this affair.
Like I don't get any of it really, if I'll
beet honest, maybe it's just the mental connection maybe, So
it feels like it's like a connection of convenience, Like
they were at the hospital together, so you know, you
know what, I actually like that kind of like they
(08:46):
were leaning into you know, just hey, we don't see
our spouses, we don't see our families. We spend the
majority of our time here, so like let's hook up. Yea, yeah,
that's when I got from it. Well, meanwhile, though it
feels like Ellis thinks he's the love of her life. Though,
you know, like when she comes back and when she's lucid,
she basically asked for richer, So it's mostly like is
(09:08):
he in her mind? Is he the love you know,
of her life as far as she's capable of loving maybe,
you know, which doesn't seem like a lot. But here
we are. Yeah, I don't know what to make of that,
Like did she have like during her non lucid moments,
did she have some other kind of fantasy going on
in her head where she saw this a relationship is
different from what it actually was in reality? Who knows,
(09:29):
who knows right? But what I love about Grave is
that you know, they're always parallels between you know, the
relationships amongst our core characters and kind of the medical
case of the week. And so in the medical case
of this week, there's a patient. Her name is Marina,
you know. They find that she's been taking an herbal supplement.
(09:51):
She's Richard's patient. She had cancer, she's undergoing chemotherapy. She
comes in UM and it's just not very responsive. They're
trying to figure it out. It's so interesting because her
relationship with her boyfriend, who her boyfriend doesn't know she
has cancer, which is like, Okay, I guess you're not
really in a relationship either. UM kind of sparks something,
(10:12):
sparks the kind of George and Callie situation, and sparks
kind of these conversations amongst lots of people because she's
holding a big secret from him. Now she's in the hospital,
she's in a coma essentially like for the majority of
the episode, and they find out that she has toxic
blood that those herbal supplements that she's taking have kind
of had a negative interaction with the chemotherapy chemicals, and
(10:36):
now she's toxic. So nobody can perform anything on her
without getting sick. Even in the has mess whos they
only have a certain about a time before you know
down goes every single doctor. And it's interesting because like
Christina is so gung ho about not giving Burke an
answer about this engagement, but she ready to risk her
life without Ppe, so running here with this woman with
(10:58):
toxic blood. He should have known then, ma'am, if you
were willing to die for this patient that we truly
actually still don't even really know anything about, Like we
have I hypothesis about the herbal supplements in the and
the chemo drugs, but we don't know how to fix
this yet, etcetera, etcetera. And she running in without Ppe.
He should have known then that she was married to
her job. He really should have, because like, can you
(11:20):
please wear my ring? Is such a small asque and
she's like no, But what I can do is I
can run in here and I can hold my breath
for sixty seconds and I can help because this patient
is just still open on the table because all the
doctors are down and we still don't really know what's happening.
But you know what, I'm really did take that risk,
Like she's willing to risk her whole life for a
patient and not wear ring please Burke. Yeah, he should
(11:44):
have read the signs. The writing was on the wall. Yes, yes,
truly and same with you know, George and Callie. So
you know, somebody else said that George's marriage was toxic,
not George. I think it was the nurse, honestly. Somebody
was like, oh, you know, maybe in your marriage is toxic,
and Georgie's like, I'm just trying to figure out why
I feel like I have the flute and all I
(12:06):
do was, you know, stand up here and draw some
blood and now I'm shaking uncontrollably. But also, can we
talk about how her boyfriend didn't know her middle name,
he didn't know she had cancer, But also he never
said anything to George while like George was getting blood,
drawing blood from her and literally couldn't not stop shaking,
and he didn't say, hey, are you okay, like why
(12:27):
are you shaking so much? He just completely ignored it.
What this man is absolutely clueless, Like how did your
girlfriend get through an entire tumor operation plus chemo treatments
and you suspected nothing, nothing. But also let's talk about
how he was in the same room while they were
drawing blood and he never got sick. So I also
kind of feel like that's probably one of the instances
(12:50):
in the show where they did not think this through
completely because he should have been sick, probably almost immediately,
because he's also not one that's in ppe and he's
just a round her the entire time they're drawing blood.
It's in the atmosphere. He's handling it like. They never
really made it clear because also, you know, when you
draw blood, you're not touching the blood directly, like he's
(13:11):
wearing gloves. It's going into a tube. But they were
getting sick, So I was like, I mean, he is
drawing blood into the air. Why isn't the boyfriends sick? Right? Yeah?
I think they just they missed that part, okay, because
I was like, I kind of feel like, if we're
gonna say, you know, it's in the atmosphere, then shouldn't
(13:32):
he be caught up in that world win a little
bit too. I mean, I'm just saying so for sure, yes,
but yes, listen, all I know is this from your perspective,
because you know, you're not only just a super fan,
but you know you're an epidemiologist as well. Now with this,
with this neurotoxin, what's this believable for you? I'm gonna
(13:52):
it's a little out of my whale house because it's
not an infectious disease. But I'm still going to say no,
because like, if her blood is so toxic that the
blood even getting exposed to the air is causing like
this airborne level of toxicity that's making people sick, then
it's not just limited to her blood, right, it means
there's something more happening. And I will say that the
(14:16):
resolve happened very quickly. So when I was doing you know,
like a little bit of research, I like to think
that you know, Gray's definitely pulls from real life cases.
But my thing was, this resolve happened so quickly. Like
basically they were like, okay, we were able to you know, like, um,
make sure that her because they were doing a bow resection,
so they were like, okay, were we were able to
(14:36):
like complete her bow resection and you know, then get
the toxin out of her blood. And I was like, man,
that seems fast though, Like I mean, I get it's
a TV show that is, you know, sixty minutes with commercials,
so you know, we gotta make it happen. But I
was like, dum, I mean, you don't really just wrap
this up nice and meat. Yeah, that was I guess
(14:56):
that's the part they took creative license with because like
the re the case that they based this on did
not resolve that way. No, not at all, and so um,
you know, I get into this a little bit deeper
and a little bit later in another segment for the show.
But yeah, it didn't exactly happen that way at all,
And you know, I wonder why. Maybe it was because
(15:19):
her and her boyfriend need to have a serious conversation
when she woke up from this comma, Like maybe maybe
that's what it was. Yeah, I think they were definitely
playing into the relationship aspect of this. But you know,
the crazy thing too, is and now that I'm thinking
about it, why wouldn't he have gotten sick sooner? Like
he's spending a lot of time with her on a
daily basis, Right, it just would seem that like he
(15:43):
would have been I mean, they would have come into
the hospital together with certain symptoms and his obviously wouldn't
be would not have been excused me as severe as hers,
But something like, yeah, they made the blood aspect to
do a lot of heavy lifting here. That didn't make sense, right, right, right? Well, listen,
it is still one of my favorite episodes, just because
(16:06):
I think what I always love about Grace is at
the end of the day, it really is it's short,
it's the medical drama, but it really hinges on the
relationships that it built, right and you know, to be
able to kind of tear down these relationships at a
moment's notice, because that's exactly what's happening. And also, you know,
when we see Izzy, we see Izzy still grieving Danny,
(16:28):
you know, in this episode, and you know, she's being
really judgmental towards George, but I think a part of
that judgment is really coming from the fact that she
just lost Danny. I don't think that she was fully
comfortable with the decisions that she made when it came
to Danny, right because ultimately it led to his death.
So I don't think that she is comfortable with that.
(16:48):
So she's trying to and probably in her mind, stopped
George from you know, kind of feeling the way she
does now about decisions that she made. Um But at
the end of the day, everyone is still kind of
going through things and Meredith doesn't even have time to navigate,
you know, like anything with Derek this episode when Derek
was also being rude, let's talk about that, because he
let her mama get in his head about him being
(17:11):
in attending and and dating her, so he basically pushes
her away this episode. But she was like, I don't
even have time for you because I need to make
these really tough choices for my mom about her health,
and I don't have time to navigate you as a
man who is just incapable of, you know, communicating properly
after one conversation with my mother. So yes, you're annoying
(17:32):
this episode. Listen. To be quite honest, you know, when
I rewatched these episodes the first three seasons when everyone
is pining over Derek, I actually really didn't like him.
I didn't either, like it's me a while for him
to grow on me. Yeah, And you know when we
get to the part of you know, the series where
Christina basically is like, girl, you're the sun, Like, please
(17:53):
stop with this man, I truly, I truly felt that
because Derek was Derek was doing a lot of things
that I would deem hellfish, but you know, he's handsome.
So these women were allowing it Addison to like, you know,
like everyone is just like pining over him and allowing
this almost toddler like behavior because he's attractive, and I
(18:13):
was like, oh no, like there are a tons of
bread flags with Derek, Like, truthfully, I don't know that
I would have married Derek. If I'm being honest, if
I were Merriedith like, no, not a pcent. No, Like
truly You're like, oh no, wouldn't that? Yeah, no, no.
And to be frank like Derek Burke, really, none of
(18:36):
these men on this show were really uh, none of
them now that I think about it, you know, rewatching
it adds a little extra layer of something because Rewatching,
I'm like, none of these men I would have said
yes to. To be quite honest, Mark is a maybe,
right maybe, And really I'm like, let me let me
put it like this. I probably I'm saying I wouldn't
(18:59):
say yes to marry now. Sex is different, but marriage
is like, don't want to be a long term committed
relationship with these guys because actually, you know what I
would say. George is probably maybe too, because George is
pure of heart like and he might be the only one.
George was just a little too goofy for me. Okay, yeah,
that makes sense, that makes sense, but he does have
(19:20):
a pure heart, and I'm like, you know, when it
comes to intentions, I think George may be the only
one with the purest of intentions. And it took you know,
Alex twenty years too to grow up, so uh, he's
definitely a hard no in these first three seasons. Yeah, Alex,
no hard no. So yes, Well, you know what, it
(19:42):
was a fabulous episode. Um. I'd love to hear this
in your top five because it is so so good,
and you know, I just think the relationships kind of
make it or break it for this now. Listen, the
toxic blood is an interesting medical case for sure, but
don't they take some liberties? I do find the answer
to be yes. But also, this is television, right, so
(20:03):
we have to make it juicy, we have to make
it interesting exactly. So I think they did what they
could with it. They kept it as realistic as they
could within the confines of still made making it entertaining exactly.
And at the end of the day, we watched Wars
for the entertainment exactly and the over the top well everything.
I was gonna say one space, but really it's over
(20:25):
the top in every way and That's exactly why we
love it. All the drama, all of the drama, all
of the t all of the you know, relationship heavy,
just love triangle squares, you know, he love hexagons is
kind of what it feels like at this point. That
(20:46):
is why we watch. So thank you, Thank you so
much for joining this segment. I had a great time.
Thanks this that's fun. Today we are diving into season three,
episode fourteen of Gray's Anatomy called Wishin and Hope and
with the incredible Bathta Golden Globe and Emmy nominated director
(21:10):
Extraordinary of the episode, Julie and Robinson. Welcome to on
call with KB. Thank you. It's an honor to be here.
Oh my goodness. I am so excited because I am
a fan of your work. You have such an illustrious resume,
and I think that you are perfect for this episode
where we are truly going to dive into the women
(21:33):
with toxic blood. So I asked Julianne to join today,
obviously because this is one of the most iconic episodes
of Grey's Anatomy. Uh and again we are dealing with
the medical case of a woman with toxic blood. So
first I wanted to ask you, Julianne. You know, you
have been a director for many, many years and you've
(21:54):
worked on a lot of medical dramas, not just Gray's Anatomy,
So tell me about your experience. It's with medical dramas
as a director, you know, since they extend beyond Gray's
and you have such a great genre knowledge. The very
first thing I directed on screen was something called Doctors,
and that was about a local practice of doctors in
(22:16):
the UK. And then I directed something in the UK
called No Angels, which was a fantastic comedy drama about
for naughty nurses, and then that was one of my
favorite and then I directed something in England called Holby City,
which was actually the show that e R was Apparently
I was told recently e R was based on this
(22:37):
show called Casualty, and then it was Casualty in Holby City,
and I guess it's it's most interesting to think about
what the difference was. It was from Holby City. I
went to Grey's Anatomy um and to see what the
differences in approach between the UK, how the UK would
approach a medical drama scifically surgeries and the US. So
(23:02):
in the UK there was a tremendous emphasis on vari similitude,
so it being absolutely accurate when you went in to
do the operation. So they would make prosthetics that exactly
matched the organs that the surgeons were operating on for
(23:27):
every single episode. And bear in mind this was a
kind of a soap, so it's five nights a week,
so that the people making the prosthetics were very, very busy.
And then when you had like a lap what do
you call it lap? When the camera yeah and you
and you look around inside there, all of that had
(23:48):
to be absolutely accurate. We had surgeon on set and
I remember there was a surgeon who there was the
proscopy going on, and they'd send um the footage from
a female and you could see the female organs and
it was a male, and the poor surgeon was he
(24:11):
was so upset. And I was like, look, we just
have to shoot it. Nobody's looking at that, and I
will just shoot around it. But he was because they
saw to saw as there. They knew that all their
friends were going to watch it, and I was like, look,
who cares what ten surgeons think. But obviously these surgeons
had a lot of power on that set to make
(24:33):
sure everything was absolutely accurate. So then from there I
came to do Gray's Anatomy. Literally from that set to
Gray's Anatomy. And there was one medical advisor there called
Lynda Decline, who did every single episode just by themselves,
by herself, and she would like call out for medical advice,
(24:56):
but she was really the queen and she probably still is.
And I mean she took it very very seriously, trying
to get it right. But they had a completely different approach.
I mean, Linda was great, I have to say this,
and but it seems like the emphasis on very stability
(25:16):
it wasn't as strong. And so she would put pieces
of pig into a into a kind of like the
cadaver cadaver into a hole that then the surgeons were
just kind of reaching into and just kind of operate on.
(25:40):
And then we'd have the white shots, so there'd be
a white shot of the table, and when you were
doing the white shot, you couldn't do the proper close
up stitching work and whatever. But it seemed to me, um,
having come from England, where they've gone to all this
trouble to to make the organs er, I'd probably get
(26:03):
such trouble for saying all of this. To me, the
approach that Linda took seemed more realistic. It seemed like
we could never get the prosthetics to look exactly right.
But I do have one other anecdote now i'm thinking
about it. Um, I was working on this medical drama
(26:24):
in the UK Holby City aforementioned, and I did a
gosh a cesarean section. So there was a lot of
detail because of how they approached it, you know, the
cutting through the different membranes and the layers of tissue,
and it was very detailed and actually very vire. It
(26:47):
looked very kind of full on. Um, it's very it's
actually very traumatic for the baby and the mother, you know,
like in actual And so I was that point pregnant
when I was shooting that episode. I can't imagine you
can see where this is going. I was due to
(27:08):
have a home birth, and um, at the last minute,
I wasn't able to have this home birth, and it
turned out that the baby had Thomas my son had
the umbilical called wrapped around his neck and he was
he was basically doing himself an injury by trying to
be born. So we had to go to hospital and
I had to have an emergency cesarean. So at that
(27:31):
point I knew exactly what was going on, having just
filmed that scene, and I don't recommend that to anybody
who's going in to have an emergency cesarian. I mean, like,
on one hand, I can only imagine the level of trauma,
you know, watching one, because like I've seen videos of them,
(27:52):
you know, like they would show those in school at
some point, and so I've seen that and I was
just like, oh my gosh, this is like wildly traumatic
for the child, But I can't imagine shooting it. And
then you know, on one hand, it's like, oh my gosh,
the trauma, But on the other hand, I'm glad you
have the information because you know a lot of people,
a lot of people go in and they have no
(28:13):
idea what the procedure really is going to be like,
and you know, you're like, well, I guess I know,
you know from top to bottom what's about to happen today.
So oh my goodness. Was it was funny because when
I was being kind of rushed through the hospital on
a gurney as you would say a trolley we would
say in England, I I it was so bizarre. I
(28:33):
was like, I'm living inside an episode of a medical drama.
It was so strange, and I was on all these
drugs by that point. It was a very surreal experience.
And then the next time I gave birth. Actually I'm
telling all these anecdotes, but they're pretty good. This was
a plant ces arean and um so I was there.
(28:56):
You know how there's people up at your head and
then there's people down at the business and and the
guy who was up at the head was like, he said,
he said, I hear, I hear you work on Gray's Anatomy.
And I was like, this is not the di yes,
and he goes, yeah, I'm an actor as well, sir.
(29:21):
I was trying to get a job while I was
in the process of giving birth. So that was great story.
What did you I'm so curious what did you say
to him? Like, how how do you manage that? I
was like, yeah, just give me put your put your
head shot and I'll have a look at it. Literally
(29:43):
going on while I was giving birth, and he was
whispering in my ear. I think he maybe thought he
was taking my mind off it, but I do seriously
think he was pitching for a job as well. He
was very handsome. By the way, he was very handsome.
You're like, actually, you might have a chance, but please
talk to me after the labor is over, Like I
(30:05):
managed this, my goodness. Well, you know, I guess it's
a good thing that you've directed some of these episodes.
They have helped you in her own personal experiences. So
you know, since you've done quite a lot. See I
got you to talk about I mean, see, you've done
(30:27):
quite a few shows. So I do have a question
with this particular episode. You know, you talk a little
bit about Linda, and I'm curious because you said you
think that sometimes it may have worked better on Gray's.
Do you think that, like, you know, them using pig
intestines and things of that nature. Specifically, it's mostly because
(30:47):
she was the only one, you know what I mean, Like,
there were no other there were no other consoles, so
they're like, okay, let's let's make it happen. I think
if they'd wanted to get all of this prothetics involved,
they could have definitely, but it was a creative choice.
I'm not even sure they thought about it, to be honest.
But then as soon as I started working on Grays
(31:10):
and I thought back to Holby. I've never spoken about
this before to anybody ever, but I thought, gosh, well
that's all a waste of time, everything that they're doing
in England. And also you'd you'd have like these huge conversations, Oh,
you know the particular the kidney isn't ready, it's not
(31:30):
ready to go yet, it hasn't been made. And then
I remember going down to the prosthetics shop and you'd see,
you know, all of these prosthetics that they're making. The
kidney is not ready. We can't shoot that scene today.
We'll have to shoot it, you know, in four days
when it's finally ready. And oh that's a tricky organ.
And there were all of these conversations and I never
(31:53):
thought it looked that good. So I I was. I
was like, they should do this in England. And there
might be laws that I don't know about, you know, uh,
prohibiting it, but if anybody is listening from Holby City, um,
maybe this is something to think about. Finally, because hobby
is still going as is great anatomy. Um, maybe you
(32:16):
should change your ways. But then I would feel back
for everybody that's making the prosthetics. So yeah, because then
I mean, that's a significant department cut. You know, it's
a big so forget everything I just said. Okay, Well,
in this episode, you know, I did some digging and
I found a case in Riverside, California of a woman
(32:38):
who actually had toxic blood. So this was she was
thirty one, and she was rushed to the hospital with
decreased blood pressure at fast heart rate, shortness of breath,
and a little bit of discombobulation in addition to having
late stage cervical cancer. So in this particular woman's case,
her name was Gloria Ramirez. You know, tried everything, um,
(33:02):
and nothing really helped. So when they removed her clothing,
the nurses noticed an oily sheen on her chest. They
noticed kind of an odor garlicky type odor coming from
her breath, and when they drew her blood, they smelt
ammonia and they saw particles floating in it. So after
all that, you know, uh, some of the staff started
(33:22):
fainting just around her and having temporary paralysis and so
many other things. So obviously the sad part is in
this particular story, Gloria didn't make it through the night.
She ended up saying that night, but um, there are
a lot of similarities to you know, the story that
we see on Gray's with Marina Wagner Um. And one
(33:45):
of the big differences obviously is that Marina has a
happier ending on Gray's. So do you know if this
particular episode was based in part on this case? I'm sure.
I'm not sure based on that particular case or what case,
but I do know that all every storyline in Grays,
(34:05):
no matter how out there, was based on a real
medical situation. Um and I was I dealt with a lot.
I I dealt with somebody who had a folk sticking
out of his name, and there was all kinds of things.
But if they were all based on medical reality. Now,
with this particular case, I'm just remembering it back, and
(34:28):
it was absolutely hilarious to shoot, as you could imagine,
it was so funny. It was so what what was
so funny about shooting this particular one? Well, I mean,
I guess one. Everybody is falling out all over the place.
There was one scene that I'm trying to remember. It
(34:49):
was I think Patrick was in it and Eric Dane
and they were like clap up seeing in the surgery.
And of course on Grazy was always like do Go,
Go go, because the scripts were long and there's a
lot of time pressure. But just those guys collapsing in
the surgery. I just we were laughing so hard. Um,
(35:14):
I know, I know what scene you're talking about. It's
the one up. It's Patrick Dempsey and Isaiah Washington and
the right right, right, right right collapse one by one. Yeah, yeah,
it was just it was so funny. Obviously, now that
you've told me that it's based on this real situation
and that poor person died, it's less funny. But at
(35:37):
the time, um, I think it was a combination of
exhaustion and and just the nature of the scene. And
at that time, I think Grays was it was interesting
because it walked the line between comedy and drama much
more than it's more recent iterations, especially with George and
(36:02):
you know, it was a comedy drama more at that point.
Although it was very I mean all was very you know,
touching and honest in places. Um, I thought it has
that Shonda kind of magic, which is to be able
(36:23):
to just really be truthful about things. But yeah, so anyway,
so that's what I that's why I really remember about
that scene about shooting that particular scene. It's so funny
that you say George and comedy, because I do kind
of recall him having I don't want It does feel
a little bit like physical comedy. I guess it's kind
(36:45):
of you know, he was always kind of like running
into things or doing I do feel like he had
a bit more of that lightheartedness. Yes, but even in
the writing, I think there was a there was comedy
in the writing, and um, all the actors were incredibly skilled,
incredibly skilled. Sandra is one of the greatest comedians actually,
(37:07):
and that's something that people don't really know about her,
but she's a fantastic comedian in addition to all of
her other skills in life. Um, you know, I got
a chance to interview her recently, and she is very funny,
naturally like, very just I was like. And she also
delivered some of the greatest one liners on Grey's Anatomy, honestly,
(37:30):
where you're just like, yeah, absolutely no. With her. It
was funny because she would in some episodes she would
have hardly any lines. But I would have a secret
kind of pact with myself really that I would shoot
a lot. I would like make the episode in some
(37:53):
way about her, even though she didn't have any lines,
because she's such a strong screen present um and so
that was quite a joy to do. That was a joy,
just a nice little secret um pact with myself. And
even in this episode, she has a few one liners
that are very funny. I mean this episode, you know,
(38:14):
there are lots of other things that happen, but it's
really mostly a relationship heavy one um and in terms
of like the couples making big decisions, big announcements, trying
to figure that out. But even when it comes to
this particular patient and she mentions like I can hold
my breath underwater for you know, an extended period of time.
So she gets an opportunity. I feel like she says
anything to get a surgery or to get next to
(38:37):
a patient. And so you know, this woman with toxic
blood is like a historical you know, Gracelane patient and
she needs to be near her, so she will say
anything to get into that room. And the other same
where they're all kind of in the they're all like
(38:59):
holding that breath and running in and do something and
they're coming back out again. Oh god. It was difficult
to shoot, but we we did have a very good
time is my memory. We had. We had fun on
that set. We had a lot of fun, but I'm
trying to write as a caper and storyline as well,
which was incredibly moving, the storyline with Meredith's mom, and
(39:21):
she's such a wonderful actress. I had the opportunity to
work with her again on Scandal many years later, and
she's just a I was you know that they had
a lot of fun and a lot of I think
it was just a meeting and probably still is. I
haven't seen it in a little while, but just a
very very compassionate vision for that show. Yeah, and they
(39:44):
have some talented, really truly talented people, I mean on
it through and through and behind the scenes and working
from chap to bottom. So I do have to ask,
you know, when you're presented with an episode to direct
for a medical drama, and specifically Gray's Anatomy, you know,
how much collaboration did you have with Linda or the
writers prior to in terms of like making sure that
(40:09):
you know the medical authenticity was there, but also that
just you know that you were visualizing something that we
as the audience could relate to no matter what, like
even if we didn't have a background in medicine. We
just had an interest in humans. Well, you know, the
work comes to you pretty fully formed. Um, they have
(40:29):
their medical advisors already, and they had a writer who
was on staff who was a nurse, so it was
a very you know, the scripts, especially Shanda used to
overwrite the scripts and they would just come in just magical,
you know. And uh so it's always I've always seen
(40:52):
my role kind of infusing emotion and it's not exactly emotion,
but just making sure that it's not just it's about
something else. So it's about relationships, and it's about the
medical is is important, but it's ultimately a relationship driven.
(41:14):
It's a family show. It's about these families, these self
made families of people that live and work together and
just to make sure that that kind of gossamer network
of relationships is crystal clear and sings through. So I
(41:35):
know it's probably not the right show to say that on,
but it to me, the medical would always sit behind that,
you know, or would be a mechanism whereby that would
be carried through. So yeah, yeah, no, I got you.
You know, they are a medical drama, but it's it's
(41:57):
really at the crux of it, kind of a family
show with so much heart and you know they're pushing
kind of the relationship drama aspect, but you know, underneath
it are the medical stories that bring it to the surface. Yes,
exactly exactly, and they always kind of resonate. So the
story of the medical story I can't remember with this
(42:20):
particular episode, but it will be resonating with you know
how one of the characters is maybe feeling about themselves
and yeah, so with this particular episode, I think the
biggest kind of relationship tie in for this was George
and Kelly are just eloped in Las Vegas and George,
(42:42):
you know, is happy about the decision, but he's announcing
it to his friends and everyone has a lot of opinions,
and Callie is worried about the opinions of his friends. Meanwhile,
George is trying to solve this mystery. He's sweating, he
feels bad, and Kelly is basically like, oh, you regret
the fact that we got married and it's like, know,
I am physically ill, and she's like, no, you regret
(43:04):
this marriage because I think, you know, in small parts
she regrets it. There's a lot that she reveals kind
of in the episode through her dialogue where she's trying
to be okay with it and she wants other people's approval,
but really she's not okay with it, which we find
out later right, she's not totally, but she wants him
to take the fall for it, and he's like, I'm fine,
(43:25):
Like I literally just sick. I'm trying to solve this
and it ties into the fact that this particular patient
has a boyfriend who a doesn't know she has cancer,
doesn't know that she's undergoing chemotherapy, and then doesn't know
her middle name. So that's like, really what you know.
He's like, oh, is she sick? I don't even know
her middle name? Yes? Yes, yes, yes, So it kind
(43:49):
of it bounces off how Callie's maybe feeling about herself,
and it has um and they're very clever. The writer
is very clever. Indeed, yes they are, so, I will
say in this particular episode with the writing, you know,
it's interesting because Marina, they found out that the patient
had been taking an herbal supplement and so they hypothesized
(44:13):
that that supplement, combined with the chemotherapy and the chemicals
and the chemotherapy are what turned her blood into a neurotoxin.
So you know, I did some digging, and you know,
a study published in twenty nineteen and the Frontiers in
Oncology further supports previous research that, Yeah, you know, there
(44:33):
are some herbal supplements that can cause dire you know,
consequences when they are combined with the chemicals and chemotherapy.
There happened to be some I think that they found
that may help you know, um, the chemotherapy, but there
are definitely those that hinder it. But I couldn't find
specifically if it would turn your blood into a deadly toxin.
(44:57):
So while it might be a toxic cocktail um in
other ways, and I don't say that lightly, but while
it might be a toxic cocktail in other ways, um,
I'm not entirely sure about the toxic blood. So maybe
this is one of the areas where you know, the
writers took a little bit of liberty by making it
a neurotoxin in the blood. But again, that's why we
(45:18):
have dramas on TV, right. Yeah, I would be surprised.
I would be very surprised if there wasn't some story
somewhere that, uh supports that storyline because it did seem
to me that there always was. But yes, that's a mystery.
(45:39):
Maybe I'll have to ask the person that wrote it. Yes, yes,
please let us know. Yeah, you always have to. You
always have to punch up an episode though, right, you
know it's they have the foundation and I'm almost positive
it was probably Gloria Ramire's case. But you have that,
but you also need to tweak it for television. You
also need to tweak it for purposes of um of course,
(46:01):
you know, just remaining a sensitive because this is an
actual human being who did lose her life in this way,
and so for sensitivity reasons. I'm also sure that's another
reason why you know, you have to kind of redevelop
and restructure. Um. And then also you know Grays is
about the bigger the drama, the better, so you also
want to, like, you know, make it wild it's capacity
(46:24):
Yeah sure, yeah yeah. Oh well and what fun for
you to go back and be watching these episodes again,
that's great, You're you're inspiring me to do the same thing.
Oh wonderful. Yes, I hope you do. And you know what, um,
I hope you come back and chat about more episodes.
I mean, I adore the show. I think it's great
and I'm excited to be covering Gray's Anatomy for you know,
(46:46):
this season of the show, because I I do think
it is such a solid drama um and there's so
much to explore there for sure. So before I let
you go, I just again thank you so much for
joining thing. I had a fabulous time. Thank you so
much for all the secrets and the stories and and everything.
Thank you, Thank you, Take care, thanks for listening. To
(47:16):
up a brand new episode of On Call with KB.
Join us next week as I break down season two
episode seventeen of Grey's Anatomy entitled as We Know It.
That's right, the super size post super Bowl episode with
Dr Tish e er doctor, and we are going to
dive into the man with a bomb inside his body.
(47:38):
You don't want to miss it. Listen to On Call
with KB on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to a brand new episode of On Call with KB,
the show where we take some of the episodes of
your favorite medical dramas and dive into whether or not
they are scientifically and medically real. This season, I'm focused
on Grey's Anatomy and for this very special episode, I
have acclaimed director Julianne Robinson here to discuss the episode
where we have a woman with toxic blood. But before
(00:37):
I dive in with Julianne to discuss the technical aspects
of directing this episode alongside some of her personal medical stories,
I talked to my friend and epidemiologists Sharah, and we
dive into all of the hottest water cooler moments, including
some piping hot relationship drama. So stay tuned, you don't
want to miss ye. Welcome, Share Hi. Thanks for inviting me. Yes,
(01:11):
of course. So let's dive right in here because this
episode is a doozy. In this episode, Ellis is lucid again,
which may or may not cause a lot of problems
for Meredith. Uh. It seems like everyone is having an
official relationship talk or relationship issue. But I mean, when
are they not on grace? And we have this case,
(01:35):
this mysterious case of a woman who ends up having
toxic blood. So, first, what is your favorite scene this
episode that is such as Howard choice, because I love
this episode, like this is one of my top five
of the entire series for me. So favorite scenes, Um,
I'm gonna have to go with like I feel like
(01:57):
this episode was like p Kelly Addison friendship. So the
scene where Kelly's teasing Addison about looking at Karev is
probably my favorite. I felt like that's also the scene
where like Kelly is really trying to I guess, get
everyone else's approval about her marriage to George in order
(02:19):
to make her feel better about how it happened. Like
it's so interesting to me because she is looking before
positive reinforcement, positive feedback from everyone. But a really, girl,
if you're not okay with this small engagement ring and
this biggest shotgun wedding, then you need to talk to
George about it. Like we for sure knew it was
(02:40):
doomed from this point. Yes, because she was putting so
much pressure on George. I felt like like this entire episode,
she is like George, and you are just you know,
letting your friends tell you this is a bad idea
When really girl, deep down the person who thinks that's
a bad idea, is you George is fine exactly is
(03:01):
getting her own decision there yes, desperately regretting it. And
it's so funny because you know, this isn't the only
relationship that's kind of rocky this episode, as we see
with Christina and Burke, so you know, Burke proposes, he
gets Christina exactly what she wanted quote unquote this in
(03:21):
terms of the ring right, and Christina has given him
an answer. Christina did not want this marriage, like I
don't know why they dragged it out so long, but
like it was clear that this was not going to
be for her. It's so interesting because I feel like
in this season of Gray's, what we see is the
women kind of like I don't want to say, we're
(03:44):
beelling but not really wanting the traditional things that the
men want in this and so you know, oftentimes in
TV shows, you know, the trope is that women are
the ones who want the white peak events, the husband,
the kids. But literally, in this episode alone, you see
like Kelly and Christina specifically are like non, I don't
(04:06):
know about all that. And it's funny that Kellie is
looking to Addison for approval, whose marriage literally imploded right
in front of her eyes, and she's like, girl, aren't
you so excited? And Addison like, girl, if this is
what you want? I mean, I guess like I don't
really necessarily do marriage well, but if this is what
you want, girl. Sure. Kudos to Allison for Addison for
(04:28):
being the supportive friend though, because she was like, Okay,
that's what you want right for you? Right like? And
that brings us to more relationship issues. So Ellis is lucid,
and you know, she knows nothing about Meredith's life because
she thinks it is five years in the past, so
(04:50):
she doesn't know that, you know, um, she doesn't know
that Gray went to medical school, that she's done with
medical school, that she's now the relationship with her attending,
that she lives in her house with a multitude of
other people, and that she has Alzheimer's. So ellis coming
(05:11):
back is really challenging for their relationship because she was
always so very hard on Meredith. You know, we have
seen up until this point to season three, just not
only through a lot of flashbacks, but even through her
current relationship with her while she has Alzheimer's, is that
she's very cold. Um, she's very hard on her. She's
(05:31):
always pressing her to be the best, and she doesn't
give her a lot of love. And it's so interesting
because when we see Ellis's softness come back, it's only
what she's talking to Richard. Yeah, Ellis is an experience.
Not a good experience, but an experience. Yeah, and you
learned so much. It's it's heartbreaking on one hand because
you know, Christina is her best friend and she's finally
(05:53):
meeting her mom for the first time i'd say truly right,
Like she's finally meeting who you know, Meredith as as
constantly talking about and in the childhood, and she's meeting
her and she's engrossed by her because she is a
brilliant doctor. But she's a terrible mom. Like I think
we can all say that, like Alzheimer's decided she was
a terrible mom, So I think, like it's pretty clear
(06:16):
she's a terrible mother. This was so hard to watch
just because like throughout these scenes, like she shows more
affection to Christina than she knows her own daughter. So
you kind of start to understand why this isn't really
the gift to Meredith that everyone else is telling her
it is yes, and everyone keeps being like, you know,
she'll probably only be lucid for twenty four hours, so
(06:37):
you really want to take this in. And Meredith is like,
you know, I have a lot of traumatic memories of
dealing with my mom, Like she was much closer to
Thatcher because Thatcher was more loving um and he also
just spent more time with her because Alis was constantly
in surgeries, constantly working, and so it's very different. And
I just feel like, you know, everyone's pushing this type
(06:59):
of relationship on them, but that's not what they have.
And it's interesting because they're finally able to see what
their own two eyes. And even Derek. Derek's like, oh,
I'm sure your mother can't be that Badny. He came
out of that room like he saw ghost truly, like
like he was in Ghostbusters, ran right on back out like, oh, dang,
your mama is exactly what you said. She's like, why
is no one listening to me? Like I'm trying to
(07:20):
tell you this is who she is. Fundamentally. If you
want to see a softer side of her, invite Richard
in here, because that's the only way you're gonna get
her to be, you know, anything other than harsh. Really,
the trauma on that man's face. Listen the trauma and
Richard's face too, because Richard also looked like he saw
a ghost. And their dianamic has always been so interesting
(07:41):
to me because if I'm being quite honest, I never
really saw them together. Like I get that their draw was,
you know, kind of being the underdog and advancing in medicine,
and that's how they got connected. But I still know
I don't think Elise is capable of being in a
healthy romantic relationship at all. So yeah, it kind of
(08:03):
feels hostage situation. E Like just Richard is a little
too I don't know, like his personality seems far too
docile for Ellis. Yeah, like that was a very forced relationship.
I don't get the like the deep romance that they
try to make it out to be. No, especially not now,
(08:24):
and obviously like we both know that they either way,
like they were both having an affair during this time,
But I don't even get the passionate aspect of this affair.
Like I don't get any of it really, if I'll
beet honest, maybe it's just the mental connection maybe, So
it feels like it's like a connection of convenience, Like
they were at the hospital together, so you know, you
know what, I actually like that kind of like they
(08:46):
were leaning into you know, just hey, we don't see
our spouses, we don't see our families. We spend the
majority of our time here, so like let's hook up. Yea, yeah,
that's when I got from it. Well, meanwhile, though it
feels like Ellis thinks he's the love of her life. Though,
you know, like when she comes back and when she's lucid,
she basically asked for richer, So it's mostly like is
(09:08):
he in her mind? Is he the love you know,
of her life as far as she's capable of loving maybe,
you know, which doesn't seem like a lot. But here
we are. Yeah, I don't know what to make of that,
Like did she have like during her non lucid moments,
did she have some other kind of fantasy going on
in her head where she saw this a relationship is
different from what it actually was in reality? Who knows,
(09:29):
who knows right? But what I love about Grave is
that you know, they're always parallels between you know, the
relationships amongst our core characters and kind of the medical
case of the week. And so in the medical case
of this week, there's a patient. Her name is Marina,
you know. They find that she's been taking an herbal supplement.
(09:51):
She's Richard's patient. She had cancer, she's undergoing chemotherapy. She
comes in UM and it's just not very responsive. They're
trying to figure it out. It's so interesting because her
relationship with her boyfriend, who her boyfriend doesn't know she
has cancer, which is like, Okay, I guess you're not
really in a relationship either. UM kind of sparks something,
(10:12):
sparks the kind of George and Callie situation, and sparks
kind of these conversations amongst lots of people because she's
holding a big secret from him. Now she's in the hospital,
she's in a coma essentially like for the majority of
the episode, and they find out that she has toxic
blood that those herbal supplements that she's taking have kind
of had a negative interaction with the chemotherapy chemicals, and
(10:36):
now she's toxic. So nobody can perform anything on her
without getting sick. Even in the has mess whos they
only have a certain about a time before you know
down goes every single doctor. And it's interesting because like
Christina is so gung ho about not giving Burke an
answer about this engagement, but she ready to risk her
life without Ppe, so running here with this woman with
(10:58):
toxic blood. He should have known then, ma'am, if you
were willing to die for this patient that we truly
actually still don't even really know anything about, Like we
have I hypothesis about the herbal supplements in the and
the chemo drugs, but we don't know how to fix
this yet, etcetera, etcetera. And she running in without Ppe.
He should have known then that she was married to
her job. He really should have, because like, can you
(11:20):
please wear my ring? Is such a small asque and
she's like no, But what I can do is I
can run in here and I can hold my breath
for sixty seconds and I can help because this patient
is just still open on the table because all the
doctors are down and we still don't really know what's happening.
But you know what, I'm really did take that risk,
Like she's willing to risk her whole life for a
patient and not wear ring please Burke. Yeah, he should
(11:44):
have read the signs. The writing was on the wall. Yes, yes,
truly and same with you know, George and Callie. So
you know, somebody else said that George's marriage was toxic,
not George. I think it was the nurse, honestly. Somebody
was like, oh, you know, maybe in your marriage is toxic,
and Georgie's like, I'm just trying to figure out why
I feel like I have the flute and all I
(12:06):
do was, you know, stand up here and draw some
blood and now I'm shaking uncontrollably. But also, can we
talk about how her boyfriend didn't know her middle name,
he didn't know she had cancer, But also he never
said anything to George while like George was getting blood,
drawing blood from her and literally couldn't not stop shaking,
and he didn't say, hey, are you okay, like why
(12:27):
are you shaking so much? He just completely ignored it.
What this man is absolutely clueless, Like how did your
girlfriend get through an entire tumor operation plus chemo treatments
and you suspected nothing, nothing. But also let's talk about
how he was in the same room while they were
drawing blood and he never got sick. So I also
kind of feel like that's probably one of the instances
(12:50):
in the show where they did not think this through
completely because he should have been sick, probably almost immediately,
because he's also not one that's in ppe and he's
just a round her the entire time they're drawing blood.
It's in the atmosphere. He's handling it like. They never
really made it clear because also, you know, when you
draw blood, you're not touching the blood directly, like he's
(13:11):
wearing gloves. It's going into a tube. But they were
getting sick, So I was like, I mean, he is
drawing blood into the air. Why isn't the boyfriends sick? Right? Yeah?
I think they just they missed that part, okay, because
I was like, I kind of feel like, if we're
gonna say, you know, it's in the atmosphere, then shouldn't
(13:32):
he be caught up in that world win a little
bit too. I mean, I'm just saying so for sure, yes,
but yes, listen, all I know is this from your perspective,
because you know, you're not only just a super fan,
but you know you're an epidemiologist as well. Now with this,
with this neurotoxin, what's this believable for you? I'm gonna
(13:52):
it's a little out of my whale house because it's
not an infectious disease. But I'm still going to say no,
because like, if her blood is so toxic that the
blood even getting exposed to the air is causing like
this airborne level of toxicity that's making people sick, then
it's not just limited to her blood, right, it means
there's something more happening. And I will say that the
(14:16):
resolve happened very quickly. So when I was doing you know,
like a little bit of research, I like to think
that you know, Gray's definitely pulls from real life cases.
But my thing was, this resolve happened so quickly. Like
basically they were like, okay, we were able to you know, like, um,
make sure that her because they were doing a bow resection,
so they were like, okay, were we were able to
(14:36):
like complete her bow resection and you know, then get
the toxin out of her blood. And I was like, man,
that seems fast though, Like I mean, I get it's
a TV show that is, you know, sixty minutes with commercials,
so you know, we gotta make it happen. But I
was like, dum, I mean, you don't really just wrap
this up nice and meat. Yeah, that was I guess
(14:56):
that's the part they took creative license with because like
the re the case that they based this on did
not resolve that way. No, not at all, and so um,
you know, I get into this a little bit deeper
and a little bit later in another segment for the show.
But yeah, it didn't exactly happen that way at all,
And you know, I wonder why. Maybe it was because
(15:19):
her and her boyfriend need to have a serious conversation
when she woke up from this comma, Like maybe maybe
that's what it was. Yeah, I think they were definitely
playing into the relationship aspect of this. But you know,
the crazy thing too, is and now that I'm thinking
about it, why wouldn't he have gotten sick sooner? Like
he's spending a lot of time with her on a
daily basis, Right, it just would seem that like he
(15:43):
would have been I mean, they would have come into
the hospital together with certain symptoms and his obviously wouldn't
be would not have been excused me as severe as hers,
But something like, yeah, they made the blood aspect to
do a lot of heavy lifting here. That didn't make sense, right, right, right? Well, listen,
it is still one of my favorite episodes, just because
(16:06):
I think what I always love about Grace is at
the end of the day, it really is it's short,
it's the medical drama, but it really hinges on the
relationships that it built, right and you know, to be
able to kind of tear down these relationships at a
moment's notice, because that's exactly what's happening. And also, you know,
when we see Izzy, we see Izzy still grieving Danny,
(16:28):
you know, in this episode, and you know, she's being
really judgmental towards George, but I think a part of
that judgment is really coming from the fact that she
just lost Danny. I don't think that she was fully
comfortable with the decisions that she made when it came
to Danny, right because ultimately it led to his death.
So I don't think that she is comfortable with that.
(16:48):
So she's trying to and probably in her mind, stopped
George from you know, kind of feeling the way she
does now about decisions that she made. Um But at
the end of the day, everyone is still kind of
going through things and Meredith doesn't even have time to navigate,
you know, like anything with Derek this episode when Derek
was also being rude, let's talk about that, because he
let her mama get in his head about him being
(17:11):
in attending and and dating her, so he basically pushes
her away this episode. But she was like, I don't
even have time for you because I need to make
these really tough choices for my mom about her health,
and I don't have time to navigate you as a
man who is just incapable of, you know, communicating properly
after one conversation with my mother. So yes, you're annoying
(17:32):
this episode. Listen. To be quite honest, you know, when
I rewatched these episodes the first three seasons when everyone
is pining over Derek, I actually really didn't like him.
I didn't either, like it's me a while for him
to grow on me. Yeah, And you know when we
get to the part of you know, the series where
Christina basically is like, girl, you're the sun, Like, please
(17:53):
stop with this man, I truly, I truly felt that
because Derek was Derek was doing a lot of things
that I would deem hellfish, but you know, he's handsome.
So these women were allowing it Addison to like, you know,
like everyone is just like pining over him and allowing
this almost toddler like behavior because he's attractive, and I
(18:13):
was like, oh no, like there are a tons of
bread flags with Derek, Like, truthfully, I don't know that
I would have married Derek. If I'm being honest, if
I were Merriedith like, no, not a pcent. No, Like
truly You're like, oh no, wouldn't that? Yeah, no, no.
And to be frank like Derek Burke, really, none of
(18:36):
these men on this show were really uh, none of
them now that I think about it, you know, rewatching
it adds a little extra layer of something because Rewatching,
I'm like, none of these men I would have said
yes to. To be quite honest, Mark is a maybe,
right maybe, And really I'm like, let me let me
put it like this. I probably I'm saying I wouldn't
(18:59):
say yes to marry now. Sex is different, but marriage
is like, don't want to be a long term committed
relationship with these guys because actually, you know what I
would say. George is probably maybe too, because George is
pure of heart like and he might be the only one.
George was just a little too goofy for me. Okay, yeah,
that makes sense, that makes sense, but he does have
(19:20):
a pure heart, and I'm like, you know, when it
comes to intentions, I think George may be the only
one with the purest of intentions. And it took you know,
Alex twenty years too to grow up, so uh, he's
definitely a hard no in these first three seasons. Yeah, Alex,
no hard no. So yes, Well, you know what, it
(19:42):
was a fabulous episode. Um. I'd love to hear this
in your top five because it is so so good,
and you know, I just think the relationships kind of
make it or break it for this now. Listen, the
toxic blood is an interesting medical case for sure, but
don't they take some liberties? I do find the answer
to be yes. But also, this is television, right, so
(20:03):
we have to make it juicy, we have to make
it interesting exactly. So I think they did what they
could with it. They kept it as realistic as they
could within the confines of still made making it entertaining exactly.
And at the end of the day, we watched Wars
for the entertainment exactly and the over the top well everything.
I was gonna say one space, but really it's over
(20:25):
the top in every way and That's exactly why we
love it. All the drama, all of the drama, all
of the t all of the you know, relationship heavy,
just love triangle squares, you know, he love hexagons is
kind of what it feels like at this point. That
(20:46):
is why we watch. So thank you, Thank you so
much for joining this segment. I had a great time.
Thanks this that's fun. Today we are diving into season three,
episode fourteen of Gray's Anatomy called Wishin and Hope and
with the incredible Bathta Golden Globe and Emmy nominated director
(21:10):
Extraordinary of the episode, Julie and Robinson. Welcome to on
call with KB. Thank you. It's an honor to be here.
Oh my goodness. I am so excited because I am
a fan of your work. You have such an illustrious resume,
and I think that you are perfect for this episode
where we are truly going to dive into the women
(21:33):
with toxic blood. So I asked Julianne to join today,
obviously because this is one of the most iconic episodes
of Grey's Anatomy. Uh and again we are dealing with
the medical case of a woman with toxic blood. So
first I wanted to ask you, Julianne. You know, you
have been a director for many, many years and you've
(21:54):
worked on a lot of medical dramas, not just Gray's Anatomy,
So tell me about your experience. It's with medical dramas
as a director, you know, since they extend beyond Gray's
and you have such a great genre knowledge. The very
first thing I directed on screen was something called Doctors,
and that was about a local practice of doctors in
(22:16):
the UK. And then I directed something in the UK
called No Angels, which was a fantastic comedy drama about
for naughty nurses, and then that was one of my
favorite and then I directed something in England called Holby City,
which was actually the show that e R was Apparently
I was told recently e R was based on this
(22:37):
show called Casualty, and then it was Casualty in Holby City,
and I guess it's it's most interesting to think about
what the difference was. It was from Holby City. I
went to Grey's Anatomy um and to see what the
differences in approach between the UK, how the UK would
approach a medical drama scifically surgeries and the US. So
(23:02):
in the UK there was a tremendous emphasis on vari similitude,
so it being absolutely accurate when you went in to
do the operation. So they would make prosthetics that exactly
matched the organs that the surgeons were operating on for
(23:27):
every single episode. And bear in mind this was a
kind of a soap, so it's five nights a week,
so that the people making the prosthetics were very, very busy.
And then when you had like a lap what do
you call it lap? When the camera yeah and you
and you look around inside there, all of that had
(23:48):
to be absolutely accurate. We had surgeon on set and
I remember there was a surgeon who there was the
proscopy going on, and they'd send um the footage from
a female and you could see the female organs and
it was a male, and the poor surgeon was he
(24:11):
was so upset. And I was like, look, we just
have to shoot it. Nobody's looking at that, and I
will just shoot around it. But he was because they
saw to saw as there. They knew that all their
friends were going to watch it, and I was like, look,
who cares what ten surgeons think. But obviously these surgeons
had a lot of power on that set to make
(24:33):
sure everything was absolutely accurate. So then from there I
came to do Gray's Anatomy. Literally from that set to
Gray's Anatomy. And there was one medical advisor there called
Lynda Decline, who did every single episode just by themselves,
by herself, and she would like call out for medical advice,
(24:56):
but she was really the queen and she probably still is.
And I mean she took it very very seriously, trying
to get it right. But they had a completely different approach.
I mean, Linda was great, I have to say this,
and but it seems like the emphasis on very stability
(25:16):
it wasn't as strong. And so she would put pieces
of pig into a into a kind of like the
cadaver cadaver into a hole that then the surgeons were
just kind of reaching into and just kind of operate on.
(25:40):
And then we'd have the white shots, so there'd be
a white shot of the table, and when you were
doing the white shot, you couldn't do the proper close
up stitching work and whatever. But it seemed to me, um,
having come from England, where they've gone to all this
trouble to to make the organs er, I'd probably get
(26:03):
such trouble for saying all of this. To me, the
approach that Linda took seemed more realistic. It seemed like
we could never get the prosthetics to look exactly right.
But I do have one other anecdote now i'm thinking
about it. Um, I was working on this medical drama
(26:24):
in the UK Holby City aforementioned, and I did a
gosh a cesarean section. So there was a lot of
detail because of how they approached it, you know, the
cutting through the different membranes and the layers of tissue,
and it was very detailed and actually very vire. It
(26:47):
looked very kind of full on. Um, it's very it's
actually very traumatic for the baby and the mother, you know,
like in actual And so I was that point pregnant
when I was shooting that episode. I can't imagine you
can see where this is going. I was due to
(27:08):
have a home birth, and um, at the last minute,
I wasn't able to have this home birth, and it
turned out that the baby had Thomas my son had
the umbilical called wrapped around his neck and he was
he was basically doing himself an injury by trying to
be born. So we had to go to hospital and
I had to have an emergency cesarean. So at that
(27:31):
point I knew exactly what was going on, having just
filmed that scene, and I don't recommend that to anybody
who's going in to have an emergency cesarian. I mean, like,
on one hand, I can only imagine the level of trauma,
you know, watching one, because like I've seen videos of them,
(27:52):
you know, like they would show those in school at
some point, and so I've seen that and I was
just like, oh my gosh, this is like wildly traumatic
for the child, But I can't imagine shooting it. And
then you know, on one hand, it's like, oh my gosh,
the trauma, But on the other hand, I'm glad you
have the information because you know a lot of people,
a lot of people go in and they have no
(28:13):
idea what the procedure really is going to be like,
and you know, you're like, well, I guess I know,
you know from top to bottom what's about to happen today.
So oh my goodness. Was it was funny because when
I was being kind of rushed through the hospital on
a gurney as you would say a trolley we would
say in England, I I it was so bizarre. I
(28:33):
was like, I'm living inside an episode of a medical drama.
It was so strange, and I was on all these
drugs by that point. It was a very surreal experience.
And then the next time I gave birth. Actually I'm
telling all these anecdotes, but they're pretty good. This was
a plant ces arean and um so I was there.
(28:56):
You know how there's people up at your head and
then there's people down at the business and and the
guy who was up at the head was like, he said,
he said, I hear, I hear you work on Gray's Anatomy.
And I was like, this is not the di yes,
and he goes, yeah, I'm an actor as well, sir.
(29:21):
I was trying to get a job while I was
in the process of giving birth. So that was great story.
What did you I'm so curious what did you say
to him? Like, how how do you manage that? I
was like, yeah, just give me put your put your
head shot and I'll have a look at it. Literally
(29:43):
going on while I was giving birth, and he was
whispering in my ear. I think he maybe thought he
was taking my mind off it, but I do seriously
think he was pitching for a job as well. He
was very handsome. By the way, he was very handsome.
You're like, actually, you might have a chance, but please
talk to me after the labor is over, Like I
(30:05):
managed this, my goodness. Well, you know, I guess it's
a good thing that you've directed some of these episodes.
They have helped you in her own personal experiences. So
you know, since you've done quite a lot. See I
got you to talk about I mean, see, you've done
(30:27):
quite a few shows. So I do have a question
with this particular episode. You know, you talk a little
bit about Linda, and I'm curious because you said you
think that sometimes it may have worked better on Gray's.
Do you think that, like, you know, them using pig
intestines and things of that nature. Specifically, it's mostly because
(30:47):
she was the only one, you know what I mean, Like,
there were no other there were no other consoles, so
they're like, okay, let's let's make it happen. I think
if they'd wanted to get all of this prothetics involved,
they could have definitely, but it was a creative choice.
I'm not even sure they thought about it, to be honest.
But then as soon as I started working on Grays
(31:10):
and I thought back to Holby. I've never spoken about
this before to anybody ever, but I thought, gosh, well
that's all a waste of time, everything that they're doing
in England. And also you'd you'd have like these huge conversations, Oh,
you know the particular the kidney isn't ready, it's not
(31:30):
ready to go yet, it hasn't been made. And then
I remember going down to the prosthetics shop and you'd see,
you know, all of these prosthetics that they're making. The
kidney is not ready. We can't shoot that scene today.
We'll have to shoot it, you know, in four days
when it's finally ready. And oh that's a tricky organ.
And there were all of these conversations and I never
(31:53):
thought it looked that good. So I I was. I
was like, they should do this in England. And there
might be laws that I don't know about, you know, uh,
prohibiting it, but if anybody is listening from Holby City, um,
maybe this is something to think about. Finally, because hobby
is still going as is great anatomy. Um, maybe you
(32:16):
should change your ways. But then I would feel back
for everybody that's making the prosthetics. So yeah, because then
I mean, that's a significant department cut. You know, it's
a big so forget everything I just said. Okay, Well,
in this episode, you know, I did some digging and
I found a case in Riverside, California of a woman
(32:38):
who actually had toxic blood. So this was she was
thirty one, and she was rushed to the hospital with
decreased blood pressure at fast heart rate, shortness of breath,
and a little bit of discombobulation in addition to having
late stage cervical cancer. So in this particular woman's case,
her name was Gloria Ramirez. You know, tried everything, um,
(33:02):
and nothing really helped. So when they removed her clothing,
the nurses noticed an oily sheen on her chest. They
noticed kind of an odor garlicky type odor coming from
her breath, and when they drew her blood, they smelt
ammonia and they saw particles floating in it. So after
all that, you know, uh, some of the staff started
(33:22):
fainting just around her and having temporary paralysis and so
many other things. So obviously the sad part is in
this particular story, Gloria didn't make it through the night.
She ended up saying that night, but um, there are
a lot of similarities to you know, the story that
we see on Gray's with Marina Wagner Um. And one
(33:45):
of the big differences obviously is that Marina has a
happier ending on Gray's. So do you know if this
particular episode was based in part on this case? I'm sure.
I'm not sure based on that particular case or what case,
but I do know that all every storyline in Grays,
(34:05):
no matter how out there, was based on a real
medical situation. Um and I was I dealt with a lot.
I I dealt with somebody who had a folk sticking
out of his name, and there was all kinds of things.
But if they were all based on medical reality. Now,
with this particular case, I'm just remembering it back, and
(34:28):
it was absolutely hilarious to shoot, as you could imagine,
it was so funny. It was so what what was
so funny about shooting this particular one? Well, I mean,
I guess one. Everybody is falling out all over the place.
There was one scene that I'm trying to remember. It
(34:49):
was I think Patrick was in it and Eric Dane
and they were like clap up seeing in the surgery.
And of course on Grazy was always like do Go,
Go go, because the scripts were long and there's a
lot of time pressure. But just those guys collapsing in
the surgery. I just we were laughing so hard. Um,
(35:14):
I know, I know what scene you're talking about. It's
the one up. It's Patrick Dempsey and Isaiah Washington and
the right right, right, right right collapse one by one. Yeah, yeah,
it was just it was so funny. Obviously, now that
you've told me that it's based on this real situation
and that poor person died, it's less funny. But at
(35:37):
the time, um, I think it was a combination of
exhaustion and and just the nature of the scene. And
at that time, I think Grays was it was interesting
because it walked the line between comedy and drama much
more than it's more recent iterations, especially with George and
(36:02):
you know, it was a comedy drama more at that point.
Although it was very I mean all was very you know,
touching and honest in places. Um, I thought it has
that Shonda kind of magic, which is to be able
(36:23):
to just really be truthful about things. But yeah, so anyway,
so that's what I that's why I really remember about
that scene about shooting that particular scene. It's so funny
that you say George and comedy, because I do kind
of recall him having I don't want It does feel
a little bit like physical comedy. I guess it's kind
(36:45):
of you know, he was always kind of like running
into things or doing I do feel like he had
a bit more of that lightheartedness. Yes, but even in
the writing, I think there was a there was comedy
in the writing, and um, all the actors were incredibly skilled,
incredibly skilled. Sandra is one of the greatest comedians actually,
(37:07):
and that's something that people don't really know about her,
but she's a fantastic comedian in addition to all of
her other skills in life. Um, you know, I got
a chance to interview her recently, and she is very funny,
naturally like, very just I was like. And she also
delivered some of the greatest one liners on Grey's Anatomy, honestly,
(37:30):
where you're just like, yeah, absolutely no. With her. It
was funny because she would in some episodes she would
have hardly any lines. But I would have a secret
kind of pact with myself really that I would shoot
a lot. I would like make the episode in some
(37:53):
way about her, even though she didn't have any lines,
because she's such a strong screen present um and so
that was quite a joy to do. That was a joy,
just a nice little secret um pact with myself. And
even in this episode, she has a few one liners
that are very funny. I mean this episode, you know,
(38:14):
there are lots of other things that happen, but it's
really mostly a relationship heavy one um and in terms
of like the couples making big decisions, big announcements, trying
to figure that out. But even when it comes to
this particular patient and she mentions like I can hold
my breath underwater for you know, an extended period of time.
So she gets an opportunity. I feel like she says
anything to get a surgery or to get next to
(38:37):
a patient. And so you know, this woman with toxic
blood is like a historical you know, Gracelane patient and
she needs to be near her, so she will say
anything to get into that room. And the other same
where they're all kind of in the they're all like
(38:59):
holding that breath and running in and do something and
they're coming back out again. Oh god. It was difficult
to shoot, but we we did have a very good
time is my memory. We had. We had fun on
that set. We had a lot of fun, but I'm
trying to write as a caper and storyline as well,
which was incredibly moving, the storyline with Meredith's mom, and
(39:21):
she's such a wonderful actress. I had the opportunity to
work with her again on Scandal many years later, and
she's just a I was you know that they had
a lot of fun and a lot of I think
it was just a meeting and probably still is. I
haven't seen it in a little while, but just a
very very compassionate vision for that show. Yeah, and they
(39:44):
have some talented, really truly talented people, I mean on
it through and through and behind the scenes and working
from chap to bottom. So I do have to ask,
you know, when you're presented with an episode to direct
for a medical drama, and specifically Gray's Anatomy, you know,
how much collaboration did you have with Linda or the
writers prior to in terms of like making sure that
(40:09):
you know the medical authenticity was there, but also that
just you know that you were visualizing something that we
as the audience could relate to no matter what, like
even if we didn't have a background in medicine. We
just had an interest in humans. Well, you know, the
work comes to you pretty fully formed. Um, they have
(40:29):
their medical advisors already, and they had a writer who
was on staff who was a nurse, so it was
a very you know, the scripts, especially Shanda used to
overwrite the scripts and they would just come in just magical,
you know. And uh so it's always I've always seen
(40:52):
my role kind of infusing emotion and it's not exactly emotion,
but just making sure that it's not just it's about
something else. So it's about relationships, and it's about the
medical is is important, but it's ultimately a relationship driven.
(41:14):
It's a family show. It's about these families, these self
made families of people that live and work together and
just to make sure that that kind of gossamer network
of relationships is crystal clear and sings through. So I
(41:35):
know it's probably not the right show to say that on,
but it to me, the medical would always sit behind that,
you know, or would be a mechanism whereby that would
be carried through. So yeah, yeah, no, I got you.
You know, they are a medical drama, but it's it's
(41:57):
really at the crux of it, kind of a family
show with so much heart and you know they're pushing
kind of the relationship drama aspect, but you know, underneath
it are the medical stories that bring it to the surface. Yes,
exactly exactly, and they always kind of resonate. So the
story of the medical story I can't remember with this
(42:20):
particular episode, but it will be resonating with you know
how one of the characters is maybe feeling about themselves
and yeah, so with this particular episode, I think the
biggest kind of relationship tie in for this was George
and Kelly are just eloped in Las Vegas and George,
(42:42):
you know, is happy about the decision, but he's announcing
it to his friends and everyone has a lot of opinions,
and Callie is worried about the opinions of his friends. Meanwhile,
George is trying to solve this mystery. He's sweating, he
feels bad, and Kelly is basically like, oh, you regret
the fact that we got married and it's like, know,
I am physically ill, and she's like, no, you regret
(43:04):
this marriage because I think, you know, in small parts
she regrets it. There's a lot that she reveals kind
of in the episode through her dialogue where she's trying
to be okay with it and she wants other people's approval,
but really she's not okay with it, which we find
out later right, she's not totally, but she wants him
to take the fall for it, and he's like, I'm fine,
(43:25):
Like I literally just sick. I'm trying to solve this
and it ties into the fact that this particular patient
has a boyfriend who a doesn't know she has cancer,
doesn't know that she's undergoing chemotherapy, and then doesn't know
her middle name. So that's like, really what you know.
He's like, oh, is she sick? I don't even know
her middle name? Yes? Yes, yes, yes, So it kind
(43:49):
of it bounces off how Callie's maybe feeling about herself,
and it has um and they're very clever. The writer
is very clever. Indeed, yes they are, so, I will
say in this particular episode with the writing, you know,
it's interesting because Marina, they found out that the patient
had been taking an herbal supplement and so they hypothesized
(44:13):
that that supplement, combined with the chemotherapy and the chemicals
and the chemotherapy are what turned her blood into a neurotoxin.
So you know, I did some digging, and you know,
a study published in twenty nineteen and the Frontiers in
Oncology further supports previous research that, Yeah, you know, there
(44:33):
are some herbal supplements that can cause dire you know,
consequences when they are combined with the chemicals and chemotherapy.
There happened to be some I think that they found
that may help you know, um, the chemotherapy, but there
are definitely those that hinder it. But I couldn't find
specifically if it would turn your blood into a deadly toxin.
(44:57):
So while it might be a toxic cocktail um in
other ways, and I don't say that lightly, but while
it might be a toxic cocktail in other ways, um,
I'm not entirely sure about the toxic blood. So maybe
this is one of the areas where you know, the
writers took a little bit of liberty by making it
a neurotoxin in the blood. But again, that's why we
(45:18):
have dramas on TV, right. Yeah, I would be surprised.
I would be very surprised if there wasn't some story
somewhere that, uh supports that storyline because it did seem
to me that there always was. But yes, that's a mystery.
(45:39):
Maybe I'll have to ask the person that wrote it. Yes, yes,
please let us know. Yeah, you always have to. You
always have to punch up an episode though, right, you
know it's they have the foundation and I'm almost positive
it was probably Gloria Ramire's case. But you have that,
but you also need to tweak it for television. You
also need to tweak it for purposes of um of course,
(46:01):
you know, just remaining a sensitive because this is an
actual human being who did lose her life in this way,
and so for sensitivity reasons. I'm also sure that's another
reason why you know, you have to kind of redevelop
and restructure. Um. And then also you know Grays is
about the bigger the drama, the better, so you also
want to, like, you know, make it wild it's capacity
(46:24):
Yeah sure, yeah yeah. Oh well and what fun for
you to go back and be watching these episodes again,
that's great, You're you're inspiring me to do the same thing.
Oh wonderful. Yes, I hope you do. And you know what, um,
I hope you come back and chat about more episodes.
I mean, I adore the show. I think it's great
and I'm excited to be covering Gray's Anatomy for you know,
(46:46):
this season of the show, because I I do think
it is such a solid drama um and there's so
much to explore there for sure. So before I let
you go, I just again thank you so much for
joining thing. I had a fabulous time. Thank you so
much for all the secrets and the stories and and everything.
Thank you, Thank you, Take care, thanks for listening. To
(47:16):
up a brand new episode of On Call with KB.
Join us next week as I break down season two
episode seventeen of Grey's Anatomy entitled as We Know It.
That's right, the super size post super Bowl episode with
Dr Tish e er doctor, and we are going to
dive into the man with a bomb inside his body.
(47:38):
You don't want to miss it. Listen to On Call
with KB on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Kay - B
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