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October 27, 2022 49 mins

On this episode, Kay-B is joined by Superfan & iHeart superstar producer extraordinaire Joelle to chat about GREY'S ANATOMY season 4 episode 13 "Piece of my Heart." We discuss the iconic return of Dr. Addison Montgomery, George's boundaries, a Meredith & Derek break-up, and more!

Later, Kay-B chats with Cardiologist, Dr. Dan, about his fascinating journey into medicine, a case on Ectopia Cordis, and so much more!

On-Call with Kay-B is an iHeart production with lead editing by Randie Chapman of Wordie Productions (@wordieproductions on IG). Please follow Executive Producer & Host, Kay-B, on Instagram & Twitter @TheLadyKayB. For more information about the case highlighted in this episode, read it here: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.105.575191

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to a brand new episode of On Call with Kab.
I am your host, Kap. First up, if you have
not listened to my show, then you need to pause this,
go back, catch up on the first three episodes, and
then come back here for episode four and join me
for a dynamic conversation with renowned cardiologist Dr Dan. That's right,
I have Dr Dan on so we can dive into

(00:35):
season four, episode thirteen of Gray's Anatomy entitled Piece of
My Heart, and we chat about whether or not it
is possible, probable, feasible for a baby to be born
with its heart outside of its body. But before I
dive in with Dr Dan, I have my dear friend
and super fan, Joel On, who is an accomplished producer, host,

(00:58):
entertainment journalists also just an all around fabulous human being.
For us to dive into the intricacies of this episode,
we talk about us and Montgomery's homecoming. She returns to
the brilliant Grace Sloane Memorial. Who knows, because at this time,
you know that hospital change his name so often. Let's
just say she's at Seattle Grace, Seattle Memorial, Seattle pres.

(01:23):
I don't really know what we call in the hospital
season four. I gotta go back and find out for y'all. However,
she is back in the halls of the hospital in Seattle,
and you know what she's clocking some relationship drama between
Meredith and Derek and um maybe catch enough few vibes
between Han and Callie, so you'll have to stay tuned

(01:43):
for more. We have a great segment today where we
are going to talk about all the tea from season four,
episode thirteen of Gray's Anatomy called Piece of My Heart

(02:05):
with the incomparable Joel, who you may know from a
whole host of I Heart content. Maybe you know as
an entertainment journalist. I don't know, but she is a
fabulous person, producer. I mean, what else can I say?
Like she co founded the Next Step program. If y'all
didn't apply for the second round, shame on you because

(02:26):
we were definitely pushing you to apply, so you have
to wait for third time. But Joel, thank you so
much for joining me. Thank you for having me. Okay,
this was one of my favorite shows as a kid,
like as a teenager, I remember it premiered. I wanted
with my mom a law and so to get to
come back and talk about one of the iconic episodes

(02:48):
of the early era of Grey's Anatomy, and especially to
do it with you. I'm so excited, thank you, thank you. Listen,
You're right. I mean, this early era was kind of wildly,
wildly iconic the first five seasons. I was like, whoa, oh, sure,
just like groundbreaking television from top to bottom. So we
are going to get into it. But first, you already

(03:11):
touched on this. So you said you first fell in
love with Gray's when you were a teenager, and you
even got to watch some amazing episodes with your mother.
So what was kind of one of the favorite episodes
that you did watch with your mom? Oh my god. Um,
one of my favorite episodes, or the episode that I

(03:31):
always think about when I think about Grays is the
one where um is he's what is his named? Dean
dies her partner and everything that happens in that. I
think that's episode two where is he she rips out
a guy's cafine? Oh my god, these classics? Or wasn't married?
It was married. I'm like, listen, you are like so honestly,

(03:54):
that episode. I'm so glad you brought up the episode
with Danny because you know when she cuts his l
that wire, uh, and you know he ends up dying.
It is like one my very first thought watching that,
I was like, this girl would have been fired and
sued so quickly. I mean, like what she's going to Jay, right,
because this is very legal. She cannot practice medicine anymore.

(04:16):
It's ever again. But I will say that episode was
so beautifully done, and the love story that they were
able to tell between Izzy and Denny was so organic
because it just started off as such a you know,
I mean, obviously there was a professional relationship seeing as
she was his doctor, but it also was a friendship, right.

(04:37):
They just had like such a good camaraderie and they
were always laughing together. And Denny was so used to
living life, making the most out of the scenarios and
still understanding very much so that he was going to die.
So he really was just kind of like, I'm a
live life. I'm a live life because I know that
this condition I have IS is pretty bad, So I'm
gonna live well I can. And that included hitting on

(04:59):
Is and you know, kind of enjoying their time. But
when they truly truly fell in love and she is
on Denny in the prom dress and Alex has to
carry her out because it is one of the best
moments of television, and that is actually probably the first
time I ever cried an episode of TV. It was

(05:21):
so well done. And just shout out to her acting
down in that episode because it was literally incredible, Like
I was like, oh my gosh, what is this show?
You know, kind of like Pete Gray. So I'm glad.
I'm glad that you said that, because truly, like man,

(05:42):
the Izzy Stevens era, you know, before everything went awry. Yeah,
there's a lot to like love in those early seasons,
but it's also such a struggle. I think later when
I came back to the series, the moment that really
staves me is when there's a serial shooter in the hospital,
almost a serial killer, but I think he's just an

(06:02):
active shooter. Um and Bailey gets dragged out from under
the bed. That image has stayed with me for I've
thought for sure she's under there so long You're like, Okay,
he's not gonna find her, even though it's under a bed.
Is the first place for a person in an empty room,
no shade to Bailey, I get it. There's not a
lot of places to hide in the hospital room. They're small. Um,

(06:25):
but yeah, this is the way the show continues to
deliver iconic moments. Meredith dropping the heart comes to mind
as being just like my whole body dropped. I was like, no,
you dropped a heart on the floor, the bomb in
the chest cavity, Like, there's just so many iconic moments
where you're like, I cannot believe this is happening. Uh

(06:45):
is it Han who uh grills Christina about how she
killed her over and over? And I mean, honestly, it's
always Han who's on Christina's behind, which we'll talk about
in this episode. I was really truly like eating her
from day one that you know, with Han, it was different.
And we can go ahead and dive into this episode

(07:05):
because it's a good segue because Han explains in this
episode while she's on Christina's behind so much, and that's
mostly because she reminds her of herself right, like she's
a perfectionist. She wants to be like she wants to
be in Someway's Christina wants to be adored, like she
needs that approval in order to um kind of thrive.
As the doctor and the surgeon that she is so

(07:27):
but in this episode we get Addison Montgomery's I'm gonna
drop the Shepherd because they are like fully fully divorced.
Now she's she's living a zen life in California, you know.
So Addison Montgomery, this is kind of her homecoming episode,
and in this episode she has to return for this
wild and complicated case of a baby who UM's heart

(07:50):
is growing outside of its body in utero, and so
you know, they're really trying to figure out the best
way to keep this baby alive, to keep mom alive,
and so you know, the only person who could absolutely
tackle a case of this magnitude is Addison Montgomery and
they're the first person that you know, she's the first
person that they call at Gray's. And also selfishly, Richard
Weber wants Addison to come back, very usual because you

(08:16):
know he's like, oh, I miss you, I want you
to come back. But Edison has moved on, which it's
really great to see her growth and as we know,
kind of during this time, this is the private Practice years,
so she has truly moved on Um in the best
of ways. But also in the episode, we get Han,
so we see Han, who is you know, supposed to
be teaching Christina. Christina is getting very frustrated because Han
is not giving her what she expects um from a

(08:40):
teacher in this capacity, and quite frankly, maybe I can't
do it because she's too focused on Callie Han. Right now,
the girl is falling in love. It's not her. Yes,
I'm like, girl, you don't know how to do your
job because you are all over Callie. And Kelly is
pretending like she doesn't get these girlfriend vibes, and it's like,
Addison show up with Kelly is a late stage lesbian

(09:02):
though she I I truly believe Cally is like wait
what me really? And everyone's like, girl, the haircut, the attitude,
Yes you're gay, Like join us in the light. She's like,
I had no idea, you know, it's funny. I think
in this episode she does know, but she doesn't want
to admit it. Yeah, like she doesn't want to admit

(09:25):
that she is attracted to Han. I don't necessarily think that,
you know. I mean, to your point, yes, she's definitely
a late stage lesbian, but I think in this episode, specifically,
once Addison, you know, it's like, hey, girl, loyal dating,
and she's like what, and then she starts to think
about it. She's like, oh, I actually enjoy spending all
of my time with Han, I like hanging out. So

(09:49):
then I think she starts to realize, like, oh, I
do have feelings for her. But internally she's you know,
kind of having this kind of midlife crisis quote unquote,
so to speak, in the sense that like she's it's
complicated for her. She's like, I've only ever known being
with men, being attracted to men, So I think truly

(10:09):
this is probably her first time, like genuinely being attracted
to a woman, and she doesn't really know what to
do with it, which is why when Mark, you know,
kind of makes his advances, which Mark is making an
advance to everyone must be real. But when he makes
his advances towards Callie, she's like sure, yeah, yeah, because
she's overcompensating versus just kind of having the conversation with Han.
I mean, like, listen, if you get a chance to

(10:31):
ride mixing me, who's passing up this, well, I mean,
no one. But at the end of the day, it's
also like, but girl, it's okay if you like Han, like,
but your heart is somewhere else. You know, this was
I think Mark is such a safe place to land too,
because he's like genuinely a good guy, you know, so
you can have fun with him. But also he like

(10:53):
listens when you're like, I'm not sure what's happening in
my life. He's just very clearly the safe choice for her,
whereas she's going to have to be emotionally vulnerable gas
and she chooses Han And I get why you would
delay that, you know, to be fair, I do appreciate
how as the season's progress, I actually do think that

(11:13):
Callie and Mark are very good co parents. Like I
actually think I was a really good choice, a really
smart choice from the writer's room to have them become
co parents because they are friends, you know, parenthood really
was something that both of them wanted. And to your point,
you know, Mark's not a complete asshole. I mean, like,

(11:34):
you know, like he it definitely has his moments, but
I mean like he's able to understand Kellie and allow
her the space to be herself whatever that looks like,
and not Actually I find you know, he didn't really
take it personally, so I don't know, like he doesn't
take it's weird I felt like the only woman he
really really kind of took personally, like you know, kind

(11:57):
of getting that door slammed in his face was Addison
because I think he like genuinely loved her. But as
kudos to them that So what was your favorite scene
in this episode? You know? And do you think this
was the perfect time for her to kind of have
a homecoming episode. I remember when this episode aired, and
of course I love it because if you bring Addison back,
especially after Derek and Meredith broke up, bomb, it's a

(12:20):
huge bomb. She She's had intimate relationships with people in
the hospital. Um they're trying to want her back, which
you know can't happen because she has her spin off now,
but you're kind of like, what is this drama going
to cause? So yeah, it was absolutely perfect timing to
reintroduce her to the cast. I think my favorite scene
is her and Miranda just chilling in the conference room

(12:41):
before everybody else comes in, and she's she's talking about
all of the differences between living in l A And Seattle,
and she's like, and nothing changes here. I'm just so
cozy and it's so nice, and Miranda's like, so, actually,
here's seven things that are huge that have changed. Please
catch up. Um, We're not a subtle and stuck as

(13:02):
you think we are. And it's kind of like if
you've ever left a place you built a life in
when you come back, you do expect everything to be
in the exact same place, and it's such a whirlwind
when it's not. And I also love that it sort
of shows that Addison, you know, for the brilliant surgeon
that she is, man when it comes to people, she's
kind of kind of a mess do not always understanding

(13:24):
what's being said to her. Um, And I just thought
it was fun and I like them as gal pals,
like they're real fun to watch. Yeah. I think one
of my favorite scenes is the one where they're in
the o R at the end of the episode and
finally you know, um, Miranda is transparent about everything that's
going on between her and Tucker because you know they're
on the ass. Is the end of that relationship, and

(13:44):
she just as a woman. I I prefer the moments
when we allow Miranda to be soft and vulnerable, just
because we're so used to her being this badass woman
who's a surgeon and who's like crushing all of her goals,
but the reality is that she's still a human being.
And so for a long time, you know, on the show,

(14:07):
I mean, I think it really kind of shifted when
she got pregnant and you know, she had her son.
Then we started to see kind of softer parts of her.
Um and that's really what I enjoy, So her being
able to confide in Addison and just say, you know,
my marriage is done. I think Addison was the perfect
person because Addison, I mean it sounds bad, but like

(14:28):
Addison's gone through divorce, right, so she can understand what
it feels like to kind of have that. You know,
she's not a parent, but she understands very at that
time she wasn't a parent, I should say, so, um,
you know, she definitely understood kind of what the end
looks like. But then Miranda's like, but I still have
to hold together because I'm a doctor and I've work
to do and I definitely can't quit now because I'm

(14:49):
a single parent. So you know, she like, I don't
have the I don't have the luxury, and so I
think that that was one of the best scenes for
me in this episode. But you know, you kind of
tapped into this so let's go ahead and get into it.
Meredith and Derek are broken up. They should have stayed
broken up, but they don't. But what I appreciate about
this episode is that Addison has the zen from l

(15:10):
A and the more and the maturity of just being
an adult woman who has moved on UM in every
shape way for impossible to be able to say to Meredith, girl,
you blew up our whole lives over this man, and
you're just gonna let him, you know, walk off in
the sunset with this other chick, like pull it together, like,

(15:31):
you know, if it's not gonna be me, then it's
definitely gonna be you. And since it's definitely not going
to be me and you both are, you know, claiming
to be each other's biggest, brightest love of your lives,
then make sure you're actually together. So you know, I
appreciate Addison for that UM, and I appreciate that honestly, Addison.

(15:53):
I'm gonna call her Addison the Tornado. This episode honestly
just kind of came in and told everyone about their
relationships and then left not her in the o R.
Just first of all, make Rebound really took me out.
Addison you here a while, but then for Rose to
be right there behind her, it sort of also tell
her about herself. Yeah, Addison is a whirlwind. She again,

(16:14):
she's not always picking up the subtleties. You know. I
think they sort of laid that out clearly in that
opening scene where she's like, oh l we just chatted out,
but y'all are like all eyebrows, and it's like they
need be looking at eyebrows. Girl, you need to be
She doesn't understand context clues. But now elsewhere relationship drama,

(16:35):
Alex has knocked up quote unquote his married girlfriend. And
let me tell you also the way that Alex treated
her when she told him, like, I'll have time for this,
small children? Why do we love them? Damaged? Oh my god,
Alex is such a cutie. I want to take care
of Alex, not in a romantic way, but in a

(16:56):
big sister way and be like, bro, what's happening? You know,
if you talk about this, you would have to be
so angry all the time. I know you think you
wear it well, but it's clearly hurting you so much. Like,
please think before you speak. I love Ava again. If
we're talking about tornadoes, I mean truly everyone in the
show hot mess. But I really do love Ava as

(17:16):
you try so hard and it's so you know, sweet,
and it is really she's just doing her best. And
for Alex to not be able to acknowledge that in
the moment, I've never had someone be like, yo, you
knocked me up. So I'm not sure what my reaction
would be, but hopefully better than that. I mean, let's
be clear, like Eva has the patience of a saint

(17:37):
in all capacity, because I would have dropped Alex moment one.
I mean, his attitude is just not for me. Also, Alex,
please the entire episode, I was like therapy. You need
to be in it because the child one that you
had was terrible. Everyone can agree it was actually not
great whatsoever. The fact that you're still alive also udos.

(18:00):
The fact that you're alive and a doctor and thriving
in this profession also kudos. But the emotional capacity that
you have is like negative three trillion, Like you have
no You've not done any self work, That's what it is.
It's like you've been using your career kind of as
a crutch and like focus so much on succeeding, like

(18:22):
from a professional aspect that you have neglected your emotional
self and it shows. But that immediate reaction and he
basically likes shoved her on his way out to like
I mean, it wasn't like a full shove with his hands,
but you like, you know, brush passer with his shoulder
like you sir, Now, how old are we? And also,
my girl, what are we gonna tell this husband? You know,

(18:44):
like that's really what what is the truth? What are
we gonna do? So it's interesting because you know, obviously
at the end of the episode we found out that
is he gets the test results and they're negative. So
is he's looking like is she playing him? She's got
a nerve to be throwing shade at people for playing people.

(19:04):
I know she's not there yet, but your final moves, girl,
it seems like you took notes and you know we
haven't gotten there yet. But that relationship between the two
of them, well, you know, when it's like an actual relationship,
not them just hooking up, I'm like, chow uh journey. Okay,
So let's get to the science of it, right. So
I mentioned Addison is back for a very complicated, high

(19:26):
risk surgery, and it's so interesting because this baby's father
is like the most optimistic person on the planet, and
it's driving Alex insafe. Honestly, I'm not even sure how
Alex inside it was a good idea to like work
in oh B and then work I peed. It's like, Alex,
your attitude is so poor, especially to these parents. But

(19:48):
he's but he's still good to the kids. So I
I love Listen, truly, I love a crabby dude. A
crabby dude is one of my favorite uh not an asshole.
I don't like a jerk, but I like a guy
who's like, I don't know if any of this is
gonna work out there, Like okay, come on, because I
get just be you know, right, ray of sunshine, Like
go on, dude. And I love the way that he

(20:09):
flips it with the kids and that he has to
but because he has a child himself still in so
many ways and so you know, the way he can
identify with them. He listens to them, I think more
intently than a lot of adults do. And I think
he thinks parents are stupid, well clearly clearly because he
thinks this man is stupid. Listen, I mean, you know,
the wife is carrying this baby who whose heart is

(20:29):
growing outside of its body. It's rare, you know. And
she is still nervous also because she is carrying the
child and so you know, there's a lot of risk
with her as well, not just losing the baby, but
losing her as well. Um. And so I just find
that this husband is like, oh my gosh, everything works
out and you know, and else is like, everything does

(20:52):
not work out. Now, granted he is taking on his
personal life and thinking, I can't believe I just you know,
got someone pregnant. So I'm struggling here. Um, And clearly
everything doesn't work out because I'm barely making it as
a as a rescident. And there we are. Um. But
it's interesting because that that man is optimism is in

(21:15):
my opinion, kind of what that wife needs because this
case is so complicated. Right, So, how did you feel
about this case? And was it one of the kind
of medical cases that really kind of hooked you and
drew you in and intrigued you. Ask someone who is
not you know, kind of in the sciences. For sure. Now,
I've certainly seen on like news programs like child born

(21:39):
with rare defect like heart outside of chest or um
I have one of my best friends there baby cousins.
Their intestines were born outside of their body. So I
knew it was an authentic thing that could happen, that
it was rare. How you could only imagine how terrifying
as a parent that must be. So I really liked
it from the medical perspective of and sort of getting

(22:00):
to see like how we're gonna do this. I also
really appreciate um, I'd call it like a handoff episode
when we have like several teams of doctors who are
going to be operating in parts and seeing how medical
teams organize that, how they manage you know, Okay, let's
get baby born. Then we gotta take care of mom.
We gotta take care of baby's heart. But then like
the uterse is not contracting, so we gotta figure out

(22:21):
how to Like so that to me, it brings a
lot of it's just high stakes and conflict, which I
mean the juice of Drey's anatomy. It's what keeps their heart,
the heart of the show pumping. Uh. So yeah, I
really enjoyed it. Literally, I mean this is why we watch, right,
I want the highest of stakes. And then I also
find that to your point. I really enjoy when you

(22:42):
know there is collaboration in the surgeries, because I actually
prefer with like one survives and the other one is
like coading. I'm like, oh, you know, and then the
parent is coding like what's happening here? You know that's
intriguing to me from just a viewers perspective. I mean,
obviously in the o R that is literally the most

(23:03):
stressful situation you can have. But I mean, you know
in real life it's very stressful. On TV. I'm like,
give me more, give me more, give me more. So,
so did you think that this was you know, realistic?
That little baby heart really freaked me out. I was like, oh, go,

(23:24):
anytime you think about p do like, how are they
doing this? It's is so small and you have to
work so quickly just to protect it. And yeah, I
mean my heart was in my throat. I was like,
this is so terrifying. I thought it looked incredibly real,
like the fact that you know, this little tiny newborn
heart is the center of keeping um. You know, this

(23:46):
this child alive and the blood flowing and it's just
so wild. I mean I always say the human body
is is truly like the most incredible thing. It is
so resilient, but you know, also things can go arrive
very quickly. So ah. Um. But in terms of favorite character,
who's your favorite character this episode? Because I don't know,

(24:07):
the drama is flowing, there are there are a lot
of options. There's so many options, and I was left
really conflicted. You know, I I really love George so
much and I like him really taking his stance with
Izzy in this episode and be like, yo, you should
understand the position I'm in. You've evolved, like, please go

(24:30):
and do that, and the way it kind of forces
Izzy to go back to her patient and really address
her as a doctor. You know, I'm not an intern anymore.
It is my responsibility to make sure you understand the
medical impact of your life and your potential child's life.
You know, you deserve to have a baby, if you
want one, we can help you do that safely. Um.

(24:51):
And I feel like so often George doesn't stand up
for himself, even though you know, his end is so
incredibly heroic and beautiful. It's definitely and and his ability
to finally stand up for himself. I appreciate that you
said that because I do find that George in this
episode forces Izzy to do the thing that she is
lacking the most in this episode, and that's actually just listen. Um.

(25:12):
And who knows, she might not learn her lesson in
the next episode, but in this one she learns her lesson.
But for me, I will say my favorite characters episodes
definitely Miranda hands down again. I you know, love seeing
black women have the space to be soft and to
be vulnerable and to be able to share. And it's
very very rare in this show at all that Marianda

(25:34):
shares with anyone, literally anyone. It's the first step to
her opening up. And so for me, that's why she's
my favorite in this episode. So yeah, well, oh my gosh,
thank you so much for coming to chat. I mean,
it has been fantastic. I had a great time. Just
thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so much
for having me. This was really lovely. Um. If you

(25:56):
guys want to hear more of my thoughts on shows
and stuff, you should come join me over at Comic Con.
Meta pod um my host Hector Navarro and I get
real deep into like pretty much the whole Disney slate.
Let's be real about a d C Star Trek, which
I'm really getting into We just did a big episode
on and or and where will by night, So if

(26:19):
you want to hear our thoughts on that, you can
come join us over there. I love it. I love it.
Just thank you, thank you so much, and thanks guys
for listening. Now stay tuned. We have a quick break
before we dive into our chat with cardiologist Dr Dan.
Don't want to miss We are diving into season four,

(26:40):
episode thirteen of Grey's Anatomy called Piece of My Heart
with the incredible Cardiologist extraordinariy Dr Dan Eisenberg, affectionately known
as Dr Dance. So welcome to on call with KB. Well,
thank you, kab. It's it's a pleasure to begin today's
topic with you. You are an amazing back up person

(27:05):
because everything you've given me and shown me here is
is uh looking good. So um my best thoughts are
that maybe we can all learn something, uh not only
about the show, but about the things the show could
have done and the way they could have been done
perhaps better, or other things might have been added to

(27:25):
ease the way of the patients. Because that's what I'm
about is at the end of the day, Uh, it's
really all about the patient and UH caring for them.
So I hope we can in this episode, UH talk
not only about the caring of the parents, but the
caring of the entire environment for such a hard to

(27:46):
find illness and with such a low outcome, but occasional
miracles do occur. Yes, Yes, and you know what you
are right. I mean, I'm so excited because one thing
I like to do here on On On Call with KB
is we're gonna have some fun. We're going to chat
about the show. But I do hope that people walk
away and learn something and you bring up some great

(28:08):
points about, you know, treating the whole patient, but also
involving their families. So, for those of you who may
be unfamiliar with On Call with KB, this is the
show where we take an episode of your favorite medical
drama and assess the medical accuracy, all while getting an
inside look into what went into that episode. So we
talked to everyone from medical experts to the creatives behind it.

(28:31):
I asked Dr Dan to join today because he is
one of the country's top cardiology experts and this episode
of Grey's Anatomy deals with the medical case involving a
baby with his heart born outside of his body. So
this episode focuses on two central patients. Philip Robinson, who
has a complicated malignant glioma or brain tumor that over

(28:52):
the course of the episode impacts his optic nerve, causing blindness.
He is actually the first patient and Meredith and Derek's
clinical trial, and his tumor causes him to have over
the top and aggressive behavior with any and everyone that
he encounters. The second central patient is Baby Jones, who

(29:12):
has ectopia cordis, and they called Dr Addison Montgomery back
to Seattle from her life and practice in l A
to consult on this surgery, being that she is one
of the top o b s in the country. She
works with Dr Hahn, who is a cardiothoracic surgeon, and
Dr Mark Sloan Plastics to get the baby's heart back

(29:33):
into his chest and cover it with the skin graph
made from his own stem cells. So, first, Dr Dan,
tell me a little bit about your life. How did
you get here, how did you get into cardiology? And
are you a fan of any medical dramas pastor president
on TV. Okay, Well, I'll start with a little bit

(29:53):
of my background. Uh, I have a history as a
child of spending a great deal of time HI hospitalized myself. Um,
kind of like Shriner's hospitals or kind of like uh,
the other hospitals that catered to relatively poor children who
had bad medical issues. And I spent years, and I

(30:14):
mean years in hospitals as a patient. So is my
parents lived in Chicago, and I was in two different places,
one one in Europe in Austria in a hospital, and
one in in Denver. But you have to remember these
were all paid for by people who donated money. My
parents had nothing. So as as a person in a
secure but insecure childhood for all those years, UM, the

(30:39):
things that that gave me a great deal of understanding
of what it's like to be in the hospital, what
it's like to be with so many people packed in
with doctors or nurses and all sorts of people coming
into the into the room. I always wondered who was
going to come in and who was going to actually
talk to me and just walk away patients of all kinds,

(31:01):
only children. But I'm only talking about my childhood. UM,
really don't get a lot of conversation with the physicians
and teaching institution. You're like a penguin with five twelve
penguins behind you, and the lead penguin starts and then
the chatter starts, but the patient's not saying very much. Um,
and that can be turned into a love story. Who

(31:23):
people hugged me? To, people touched me? To, people talk
to me? Or do they just talk to themselves? And
flip in this day and age, now it's a computer pad,
but it used to be paper. Um, And so I learned.
I learned a lot about just hospitals and the lifetime
of a hospital. And since I spent so many years
in such a area in life. Um. As I grew

(31:46):
into a teenager, uh and was getting better medically, I
also found myself gravitating towards sciences. But I was also
a pretty angry kid because um, I had missed so
much school and so many friends, and you know, it
was so weird coming back to back home after years
away and um but I always wanted to be a

(32:08):
doctor And the biggest reason ever was I wanted to
help people and um, have people's back and be be
what I wanted you know what I mean? What did
I want as a kid? What was I missing? And
uh what I was missing? It's hard to articulate as
a child, but as you grow older you can look back.
Even if you have a goal, you can look back

(32:29):
and say where did that goal begin? And my goal
was I wanted to be one of the good guys,
not just people who walked in and looked at a
pad of paper and said, so, how are your sport?
How's it going? And while you're just about to say, well,
thank you, but they're walking out the door and or
they're talking to a nurse or something. So that's UH
where my background came. I was fortunate enough ultimately to

(32:51):
get better physically and UH went to UH College in Wisconsin,
and from Chicago, I went to a medical school at
Liola Medical School, which had another Again, something happened that
I had never been used to is I'm Jewish and
my parents were from Palestine slash Israel, and UH, even

(33:13):
though I didn't have much to do with them, I
went to Loola Medical School because they let me skip
a couple of years. So I skipped a couple of
years to get into that. To back me up, because
I didn't go to school for a lot of years,
you can imagine, right, So um, So there I was
in now in a Jesuit medical school, and I of
course had depression and all sorts of things coming out

(33:34):
of my childhood. But I didn't articulated to too many
people or understand that I even had it. But but
I sure was. So I went to Father fahey was
this big Jesuit priest with an English brooch, and and
and over the course of the next two to three
years he was my sort of my leader. I mean,
I could always go to him, and I learned that

(33:57):
I when I did become a doctor, I want it
to be ultimately in a place where spirituality, which Jesuits
have in spades, at least what I saw and really
cared for people, and how important it is to have
caring with the doctors, the nurses, the people who cleaned
the floors and you know, bring you food. They're the

(34:20):
ones who spent the most time. But anybody can be
that way if they just start thinking about do one
to others. And so I had that, and then I
the rest was, you know, six more years I was
in California University of Southern California, and then I was
about to graduate. I had written some books and traveled
the world, and and when I came back they all said, so,
which university are you're gonna go to? Right, that's and

(34:43):
I said, I'm not going to a universe. I want
to find a community hospital and uh so, um I
was in that and it was it was almost a
twenty four hour drama for six years, if you can imagine,
you know, just unbelievable everything about it. And I ended
up going to this place called Saint Joseph's in Burbank
and it's part of a Providence health Care System. And

(35:05):
in the last ten years, I've I've become director of
cardiology for twelve hospitals in the whole southern California region.
I'm the main medical director at the hospital I work in,
and I have a group that I also am a
head of that is, you know, our cardiology outpatient program.
I'm ahead of that and head of the things I've

(35:27):
just mentioned. Oh, that's incredible. What a journey you know,
your life has taken you on. And I love that
you said, you know, it started really from childhood and
wanting kind of that empathy, that bedside manner, that emotional
intelligence that some may say, you know, some some physicians lack.
That's what you were looking for and that's why you

(35:48):
wanted to be a physician, so you could provide that
for other patients. So I love that. Thank you for
saying that. Yeah, I love that. Well. I did some
research and I found that the first reported case of
ectopia cord this was in the seventeen hundreds. I also
dug a bit deeper and found the case that they
likely based this particular patient on Grey's Anatomy, or at

(36:09):
least the portion of the storyline on so in two
thousand and six, ahead of the show's fourth season in
which we saw this episode, which premiered in two thousand
and seven, a complete ectopia cortis case was published in
the American Heart Association Journal. In this case, the patient
had to have temporary prosthetic reconstruction of their chest wall

(36:32):
and then his heart was covered by skin. So in
this case, the patient had to have multiple surgeries. It
didn't end like this episode, you know, kind of a
one and done surgery and he could live freely. This
patient in the ah A had to undergo extra thoracic
repair of the intracrdiac defects at five months old, and

(36:53):
then a thoracic protector was used. So at the end
of the article. You know, this patient was still alive
and that was about three and a half years after
their first surgery. So Dr Dan, can you elaborate a
bit on your thoughts about this particular case from the
A H A. And you know, listen, I know medical
dramas have to be entertaining and they have to be

(37:16):
digestible for audiences, but a case like this is actually
really complex, and on the show we see a very
very simplified version. So what are your thoughts on that.
My thoughts are in terms of this particular baby. Um,
the show mimicked real life in many ways. About seventy

(37:36):
of the time, the heart pops out right above where
the sternal notch has been right in the middle, and
out pops this heart. Um. It's prevalence, as I said,
is one and about you know, a few in one million.
But the sporadic formation links it to chromosomal problems like
Turners syndrome. People have heard about all sorts of congenital

(37:57):
defects occur in congenital you've that type newborns and when
the newborn is taken out, very few survived the first
few months. So what this kid, this child, um, what
was good about this is they had one of the
stars of the show basically making cells and tissue and

(38:19):
that was a separate part of the show because nobody
understood what really was he doing when even though he
mentioned it, I don't think people really got it, but Mitch,
some do. And Um. In the meantime, this woman flies
out from this doctor flies out from l A to
come and work with cardiothoratic surgeon one to how are
we going to take care of this oh B kid? Right,

(38:39):
that's Dr Montgomery, okay, And she comes to take care
of the O B and I forget her. I don't
know any of their names. Doctor Dr Yang was the one, yeah,
Dr Yang that got the bad look from from the
main door from the cardiothoratic exactly exactly, they said, come

(39:00):
over here and do this. And so she's she's, you know,
working very hard just with her fingers to to push
this light, tiny little walnut of a heart and then
all of a sudden, the heart rate comes back and
within two signs, the lead surgeon, because they're always so kind,
UM just told her to get out of there, and
she took it. So, yeah, that's what happened. So the

(39:22):
so then and then the guy I think his name
is Dr McDreamy, but I'm not sure if that was
to make dreamy. But whoever it was the guy who
did the tissue were that's mc steamy. So that's mcsed
steam if you, if you know, anybody wants to call
me Mrs McSteamy. I'll take that. That sounds kind of cool.

(39:43):
But anyway, Um, the tissue that was now there was
put down like an adhesive. Well all this adhesive in
this case is tissue, live tissue, and they very gently
tapped it on there, and um, it's not un heard of,
but myself, being a cardiologist and one who's been doing

(40:04):
a lot of it for years and years, I had
never ever heard of the term ectopic of cortis really Yeah,
of course, cortis means heart right, and that topic means
out of you know, so out of right. So thank
you for helping me learn and call various friends of
mine who um understand both areas well enough so that

(40:26):
I could hopefully give you a little bit of my knowledge. No,
that's so interesting. Okay, so I have to ask, as
a cardiologist, did you think that they did a great
job about, you know, of making this particular case medically accurate.
And then as a I'm gonna call you a sometimes
viewer taking off the medical lens, what is the perspective

(40:48):
you had of this episode of the show. Okay, well,
first I'll just say my perspective of this show is
that overall it did a good job and closed loops
of thought so that people could understand what was going on.
What I didn't see was some of the teaching parts
that they would would have done with the family or

(41:09):
even showing, um what it looked like, or you know,
showing more pictures or some even hospital ultrasounds and you know,
things of that nature. You know, that would give people
more understanding. Um. It's a fine line between trying to
tell the most complicated things to people when they're really

(41:31):
just trying to get their child out and they've got
a lot of other things on their mind than the
than the high tech stuff, but um, the low text
stuff of palliative care. Having somebody there from spiritual care,
I think that should have been there, um, And I
think that's extremely important on everybody, especially when you look

(41:51):
at the families of the people. They they're stunt, they
don't know which way to go. And of course that
leads to problems even with the couples a lot. And
so if you have somebody there who's got that wonderful
heart to make them go into that kind of healing
art um, I think is important. Um. I think that overriding.
In terms of the show itself, I think they did

(42:13):
a pretty good job. I think they they made it
clear that this was serious. I did some of it was.
There was there were some periods where I think there
was a little bit too much um in between laughter,
between when the surgery is gonna happen when it's not,
and so on. But if I really think deep, we
tend physicians and myself included, when I'm doing procedures, we

(42:37):
tend to go into a different zone where somehow it's
better to be right into the work. But every once
in a while throw out his zinger just so that
everybody knows they're awake. And they were doing that, so
I and I it's difficult to judge that. Okay, So
it sounds like, you know, this episode was you know,
based on my research, based on your expertise, based on

(43:00):
we've cobbled together. Obviously my cardiology experiences is far less
than yours, but this was a pretty medically accurate episode.
So I have to ask, if they were to grant
you the opportunity to be medical consultant on Gray's Anatomy,
what type of cardiac case would you pitch? Okay, well,

(43:21):
first of all, I'm gonna give a disclosure, and I
haven't even called the people, and I don't think I will.
But two friends of mine over the last twenty years
became doctor writers for Gray's Anatomy, and they call me
occasionally when they're trying to figure something out, not for television,
but when they have their own medical problems or or

(43:42):
their friends do, because they're no longer they're doctors, but
they're really you know, writers and showrunners and all that
kind of stuff. But these are terms I shouldn't even know.
It's just that I happen to live in l A.
In Chicago, I wouldn't have known anything. I would have
talked about the clubs or something. But I think if
if I was doing it, I would talk about people

(44:02):
who For instance, about twenty years ago, there was a
huge earthquake in Los Angeles and it was called the
Northridge Earthquake, and the city fell apart, and I woke
up at four o'clock in the morning to a phone call.
A friend of mine said, so what are you doing.
I said, I'm just lying here with my kids, and
what are you talking about? It goes get out of bed,
you idiot, there's a blah blah blashs. I looked and

(44:25):
turned on the TV and there I saw the city
was in shambles. And I went and drove directly to
the hospital and spent the next four days doing some
of the wackiest things that you can imagine. Pianos fell
on them, you know, things fell off of the you know,
you know everything you can imagine the building collapse. Yeah,

(44:46):
but not just you know, like one war war zone thing.
The whole city was that way, and then there was
looting and all that stuff. So I think that would
be an incredibly good thing because the last that I
learned and the things that I sort of just did
d live to to help people live UM was one
of the heights of my career doing something completely different. Okay,

(45:08):
and there's other things I've I've had some I'd take
some patients whose hearts have stopped UM. In the last year,
I had two in their forties and one in their
sixties where their hearts stopped but didn't just stop, it
didn't move. But they were in my office coming in
saying they were a little short of breath, and I went,
so I did an ultrasound, and it would be like

(45:28):
not seeing any movement of the ultrasound yet I'm talking
to a live dead person, if you know what I mean,
because they weren't. Of course, they got into the hospital
and I did things. But um, I saw one of
them today and that's a year later. Um, he's an
extraordinarily famous executive producer for many of today's television shows,

(45:50):
uh and podcasts and stuff. And we both hugged and
just smiled each other, and I did an ultrasound on
him today is the first time now in a year.
His heart's perfect. Oh love that. So I mean that
that's real. I mean that's real. And the other two
were similar, but I didn't know what why that happened
to them. It's not like, you know, things happen in threes, right,

(46:13):
So here's the three so so I you know it
just it just takes being in a hospital or being
in the doctor long enough. The question is are you
going to spend your time trying to save people who
need saving, or give up, and you know, there is
always that time. But I didn't give up on any
of these three. And it's it's very gratifying. It's one

(46:34):
of the best feelings I could possibly have to see
them walk in and laughing and you know stuff like that. Oh,
I love it. Well, thank you, thank you so much
for joining the show. I mean, listen, you just talked
about the earthquake, the piano dropping. I mean, really that
does like a hybrid of like Gray's Anatomies, like that
new show Libread. But I appreciate your time so much.

(46:59):
Is there anything that you want to share before we leave,
about any upcoming projects that you're excited about and can
share or or anything. Well, I'm I'm I Actually this
is very kismet um. I've got a few plans of
ideas that I have that I've been working on for
about a year. And uh, I've got an idea about
something called tikun olam and it's it's it happens to

(47:22):
be Hebrew, but it could be Arabic, it could be anything.
Stikon olam, which means to heal the world. And because
of the way I grew up because I've been so
fortunate to do what I do and still love it. Um.
I really want to heal the world. And I think
with humor and knowledge and bringing in people of all sorts,

(47:44):
I think we can heal the world. Because we don't
necessarily do a great job of that. All we have
to do right now is look at all the things.
It's when you turn the TV on you notice so
um that there, there's that, and and of course I've
also been asked to do some things that are kind
of interesting. But I'm a full time doctor, you know
what I mean. I'm a doctor. People think I'm nice

(48:07):
and want me to do stuff with them because of
my It's not a pedigree. I don't have a pedigree.
I came from a really poor non pedigree. Fair it's
your spirit. Well, thank you and I and I hope,
I hope I can live long enough to keep doing stuff.
And if you if you want me back, I'll be
back sometime. But I want you to remember to kun

(48:28):
along t I k k u n olah o l
am heal the world. Heal the world sounds wonderful to me. Well,
thank you again for joining the show. Dr Dan, And
that is it for this episode of On Call with KB. Well,

(48:50):
that's it for this episode of On Call with KB.
Join us each and every Thursday for brand new episodes
where I chat with an expert and a super fan
about the science behind the scenes. Until then, listen to
En Call with k B on the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Host

Kay - B

Kay - B

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