Jada Pinkett Smith ON: How to Move from Shame to Self- Acceptance & Ways to Heal From The Past

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
That was a really really it's a really pigful time.
I'm sorry. Please welcome Jada pink It Smith. You want
out of the pain. Only way out is death. Chris
comes to the end of the stage and he looks
at me deeply sincerely, and he says.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
I also have a letter from Will. I wanted to
share a trigger warning before this episode starts. This podcast
includes discussions of suicide and self harm. If you're someone
you know is struggling with thoughts of self harm or suicide,
please seek help immediately. You're not alone and there is

(00:46):
support available. Reach out to a mental health professional, a
trusted friend, or a family member, or call the National
Suicide Prevention Lifeline at nine to eight eight. That's nine
to eight eight. Before Oh, we jump into this episode,
I'd like to invite you to join this community to
hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier,

(01:08):
and more healed. All I want you to do is
click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's
incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started.
I can't wait to go on this journey with you.
Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Me, the best selling authoring the host the.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Number one health and wellness.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Podcast On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm your host,
Jay Shetty, and today is an extremely special episode for
me because I'm sitting down with one of my dearest friends,
my sisters, someone that I deeply love and admire in
this world, and she's gone out and created something that
I believe is going to be a gift to anyone
who reads it. I've just spent the last couple of

(01:51):
months reading through her new book myself, and I can
tell you this. It is a journey of hardship. It
is a journey of healing. It's a journey of growth,
and it's a journey of learning to accept and embrace
the discomfort that life brings to each and every one

(02:14):
of us in so many different ways. And for that reason,
I believe that when you read it, when you take
out time to hopefully share it with your friends, your community,
maybe you're going to make it the next pick for
your book club and dissect it and analyze it and
reflect on it together, which I think it would be
really powerful for I hope that this book is going

(02:36):
to help make you happier, healthier, and more healed, because
I really believe it has the power to do that
and guide you towards your greatest higher self in all
areas of your life, whether it be your career, your relationships,
as a parent, as a friend. I really believe that
this book has the ability to uplift you as a person,

(03:00):
as a parent, as a partner, and ultimately as a
human trying to live and walk on this earth that
can be chaotic and crazy. So I want to welcome
to the show one of my dearest friends, Jada Pinkett Smith,
who of course needs no introduction, but there is an actor, producer, musician, host,
now author, an advocate whose career has spanned over thirty years.

(03:23):
In twenty eighteen, Jada added a new element to her
multi hypheneate talents one of hosts on the Emmy Award
winning talk show titled Red Table Talk that I've had
the fortune of being a guest on so many times.
It was one of the highlights of my careers when
I was first invited on and on the series, Jada,
alongside her wonderful daughter Willow and her mom Adrian, take

(03:44):
a multi generational approach to discussions that speak to social
and cultural issues, which have encouraged open discussions and dialogue
among hundreds of millions of people. And a new book
is out right now. It's called Worthy. This beautiful cover
made of so many wonderful images and a mosaic of
tiny little pictures of Jada. But I want to encourage

(04:07):
you all to grab a copy of this book. Welcome
to the show, Jada Pinkett Smith, Jada, Jay.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Now, Jay, before we start going, can I tell a story?

Speaker 2 (04:15):
You can?

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Okay, got it. I have to let your audience know
how this book even became. Okay, they have to know, Jay, Okay,
all right, So I visit you. I'm here visiting because
Swammy's here, right enough, Swamy is here. And you had
often said, Jada, you should write a book. I'm like, Jay,

(04:37):
I don't want to. So this day, once again, you're like, Jada,
you should write a book. I'm like, Jay, I don't
want to write a book. You're like, well, you should
write a book, Jay, I don't want to write a book.
We're going back and forth like siblings. Roda Knough comes
into the kitchen because Roddy's making a beautiful lunch for
us to eat. He comes, he sits there and he goes, Jay,
if Jada doesn't want to write a book, she doesn't

(04:58):
have to write a book. And you go, well, I
think she should write a book. And I was like, oh,
did he just talk back to that? Why? But I'm
going to tell you something that was really a moment
for me, right because I said, because I'd been pushing
back for a long time and you talking to me
about it, and that moment, I was like, Okay, I

(05:20):
need you to take that home and I need you
to think about it because Jay's your brother. There's something
here that you might not be seeing. And it was
really that moment that put me on pause. And a
couple of days later, I was in meditation and it
came to me and I said, oh, my goodness, my
journey from unlovable to lovable is a worthy story to tell.

(05:47):
And I called you and I said, Jay, I got it.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
For you were so persistent about it, right, And I
just want to thank you because honestly, and I'm not
you know, if it hadn't been for that moment, that
book wouldn't be here right now, right, And you really
were on my neck about it for a long time.

(06:13):
So I just want to say thank you because you
also made it clear you were like, you made it
clear to me I would get a lot out of it,
and I have. So I just want to say thank you.
It's been such a deep healing process for me in
ways that I could have never imagined, you know, and
what you said before you know, we even started, and

(06:36):
the introduction, you know, just that hope of it's so
hard to find authentic happiness in this world, even through
my journey, my fifty two years, and just trying to
figure out how to be authentically happy has been such
an excruciating process, and one of the purposes of this book.

(07:00):
It's like, if I can help in any small amount
of way, you know, in any way possible to help
somebody have an easier or just leave like little bread
crumbs kind of like not a blueprint because everybody's process
is different, but just little bread crumbs of how to

(07:20):
find that for yourself, because it has been really difficult
for me. So thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, thank you for sharing that with me. And I
think I blocked that memory out to go. I don't
think I've ever tried to stand up against rather than
strong my teaching before I think that would, so I've
pretended that.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yeah, like that did it for me.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Growing up reading autobiographies is what changed my life. And
I think one of the things that I feel we
struggle with today is that people's narratives are being told
from so many different angles apart from their own. And
when I grew up and I was reading the words
of Martin Luther King or I was reading Malcolm X,

(08:08):
I found there to be so much power in reading
the words directly from an individual. And so even if
that wasn't their autobiography, if it was their work, their words,
you felt so intimately connected with that person. And I
feel that when people move on and we don't have
them on the planet anymore, it's almost like you lose

(08:31):
this treasure house of experience and memories. And I also
think that if someone's listening or watching right now and
you're thinking, well, Jay, I would never write a book.
I'm not a public figure. I'm not a celebrity. I'm
not a musician or an actor. I don't have a
career path that means I should be an author. I

(08:52):
still think that telling your story, whether it's to your family,
your kids is so.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
I could not agree with you more. I think it's
actually imperative that looking at your life on the page,
like you forget experiences, you know, you forget like, oh
my goodness, I did that. Oh I've went through that.
Oh my god, really I came through that. It's like

(09:20):
it's almost like an homage to yourself, honestly, to really
be able to look at your life and go, Wow,
what a life. I think everybody should take some time,
even if it's just one like because even with Worthy,
I took one line which was unlovable to lovable. So

(09:41):
anything in regards to my life that was on that
arc I talked about, but there's so much more, so
many other parts of my life. Right. So even if
somebody says, you know what, I just want to, you know,
write down the happiest moments of my childhood and I
want to just look at that on paper.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Right.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
But whatever journey somebody decides to pick from from their
life and to examine thoroughly on the page, I would
definitely suggest that because it is really powerful and it's
so healing, and it will teach you so much about yourself.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Absolutely, I can't agree more I couldn't agree more. Let's
let's dive in, okay, because that journey of being unlovable
and lovable as you're tracing there, I think it's a
journey that we all have to walk in our own ways.
And I think when you know I met you, I
think five years ago. Now, we've just spent a lot
of time together in the last five years. Hence we

(10:42):
have a deep connection. But when I first met you,
I was looking at you from the outside, and over
the last five years, I've got to know you through
an inner journey and you know, through family as well,
and through spending time with your family. And what I
found was that we often lose context when you view

(11:04):
someone's life from the outside, and when you get closer,
the greatest thing you get is context. And so I
wanted to start off and this book does that so well.
But I want to start off of what does it
feel like growing up with a teenage mom who has
an addiction? Like I think that that is so formative
in so many ways, and it's so easy to forget

(11:25):
that that's where you started because of your career.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
Growing up with my mother a teenage right, it's like
we grew up together. It's almost like having a big sister.
I mean even to this day, you know, it's like
it's like I get to have two roles in my mom.
Like sometimes she's still my big sister, and then sometimes
she really comes in as your as my mother, you
know what I mean. As you saw in the book,

(11:49):
it's like I had all this freedom, running crazy in
the streets, what have you, but there was such pivotal
moments where Adrian came to the rescue as my mother,
right and she still does that to this day. But
it was you know, I did a lot of having
to raise myself and there are parts of that. There's

(12:09):
pros and cons to that. There's a lot of pros.
It's like that is the part that made it possible
for me to come to La at the age of
eighteen on my own and figure this Hollywood game out right,
just with no fear, completely fearless, but then also kind
of growing up with certain ideas of what I thought

(12:32):
love was or certain survival mechanisms that you know, as
I got older, didn't quite serve me. But I think
that we all have that, no matter what our family
background is, you know what I'm saying, We all kind
of pick up things that along the way that don't
serve us for the entirety of our journey. I tell you,

(12:52):
I learned a lot having a young mom at an
early age. Really do think that even with our trials
and our challenges, that the Great Supreme gave me the
mom I was supposed to have and the most perfect
mother in the journey that I was supposed to have
to prepare me for other parts of my journey. But

(13:14):
you know, it was challenging and beautiful at the same time.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, and I love gamming, so I just want to put.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Them Yeah, yeah, we all love gam Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
But it's really interesting. There was one line in your
book that really kind of cemented that feeling of unlovable
to me from that time, and you said, there was
a time when you felt like you were not being
a priority to the two people who gave you.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, that was hard.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
That really hit me because I was like.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, that was probably really difficult, and like you had
two parents who drugs were their focus and the lifestyle
that came with it.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
You know.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
I also talk about in the book when my father
told me at seven years old, I can't be your father,
and it's just like, Wow, Okay, what do I do
with this?

Speaker 2 (14:01):
What does a seven year old do with that?

Speaker 1 (14:03):
You just kind of internalize it, and you kind of go, Okay,
what's wrong with me? What is it about me? That
I'm not enough for these two people to look at
me as a priority? Because I see everybody else's parents
and it looks like their kids are their priority. So

(14:24):
what's wrong with me? So you kinda I internalize this
idea of not being enough, not being lovable, and it's
strange because it's not that that I didn't feel like
my mother didn't love me. It's just that am I
lovable enough to be the priority? Am I lovable enough

(14:50):
for you to show up for me as the mom
that I see other moms be, you know? So I
definitely in turnalize that, and I think that I took
that into the world of like, I'm just going to
prove constantly having improved myself, and I'm lovable. I'm lovable enough.
I'm lovable enough, And I think that was some of

(15:12):
the messaging that I took from my childhood into my adulthood.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
And I appreciate you going back to that seven year
old self because in hindsight and now, looking back, you
can make sense of it, yeah, and you can connect
the dots, but it's like when you're actually in that position,
it's very natural, as you said, to just internalize it.
And I think that what's really interesting with your journey
is we all have to develop the emotional skills our

(15:39):
parents didn't have. Yeah, And the earlier we do that,
the easier and simpler life becomes. But often most of
our energy goes in thinking, well, I wish they had
them or they should have had them. And when I'm
listening to you, what I'm hearing is that it's not
even the belief that they don't love me or love
me enough. It's the belief that so inside I am

(16:02):
not lovable you. Yes, yes, right, it's it's so inside you.
It's not even about them.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Absolutely, it's like I'm not valuable.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
I'm not.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yeah, it's because that's your mirror at first, right, But
it and it's so complicated and nuanced. Do I believe
my father loved me, of course, in the way that
he could. I think that he felt the most loving
thing he could do was tell me I can't be
your father. And I respected that even at seven, because

(16:36):
I was like at least somebody's telling me the truth.
I've always respected hardcore truths. That is one thing about me.
I respect hardcore truths. Doesn't mean I always like them,
but I freaking respect them. At seven seven that's a gangster,
hardcore truth to tell a child. But then at the

(16:56):
same time that seed within me that is like, well,
are all men like that? Like if my dad doesn't
love me, how is any man gonna love me? I
didn't realize that at seven. That's when I started getting
into like sixteen seventeen, when I start, you know, having
those kind of intimate relationships with men and realizing, oh wow,

(17:22):
this area is this area is quite unhealthy, you know
what I mean of just like how I viewed myself.
I was either giving too much or not enough. I'm
either hot or super cold, you know, emotionally, and so
trying to regulate and understand because you know, my understanding

(17:46):
is that a young girl's first relationship and understanding of
love is with her father. I didn't have that at all.
So I'm still learning, still really immature in that area
of just emotional development around intimacy with masculinity. I know

(18:12):
that now, whereas before I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
That, Yeah you're aware.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
I'm not aware. This is just what it is. And
then growing up in an environment with so much violence
and so much aggression, and oh man, it was like
what do you do with all that? And trying to
just like unpack all of it to just figure out like, oh,
life is about love. It's not about power and ego
and winning and losing. I mean, it's taking me fifty

(18:38):
I'm fifty two, just now understanding that it's been a
wild ride. But you know what, every day I thank
the Great Supreme for the journey and just forgiving me
the awakenings, the little awakenings that I get about love
and just my willingness to have it, know, really wanting

(19:01):
to understand what love is all about. But I do
have to give my grandmother a lot of credit. Yeah, Marian, really,
I had all these different seeds that were planted in
me and Mary in seed. That that goes to show
you how the legacy of love will overpower everything. It

(19:21):
is her. It is the legacy of love that my
grandmother instilled in me, and also the desire to search.
She always had me understand that the world is full
of treasures. Get out there and find them. She instilled
that in me at a very young age. And she
also instilled in me that I was special. But I

(19:45):
was her first girl child. You know, I was our
first grandchild. Excuse me, I just said, you know, I
was our first grandchild itself. She she really made me
think that I could be and do anything, being the
child of two addicts on one side, and then my
grandmother instilling in me like, no, I'm telling you you

(20:09):
got something, kid, you know what I mean. And so
just being able to hold on to those seeds that
she put within me, and then of course my mother
encouraging me along the way to my mother saw some
really beautiful stuff in me as well, and she's been
one of my biggest cheerleaders and champions throughout my life.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
Absolutely, if your grandmother saw you today, what would she say?

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Oh, my goodness, my grandmother would be so proud of me.
Do it all like with the good and the challenges.
She had a very challenging life, extremely and what she
was able to make out of her life as a immigrant,
you know, child of two immigrants from Jamaica, she became

(21:02):
pregnant at thirteen. To this day, we don't know how
that happened. We do believe that it was a mistake
and it wasn't that she was raped or molested or
you know, I never got that from her. I always
got that it was her lack of knowledge about sex
that created that circumstance, and she had that baby on

(21:25):
her own. She was pretty much abandoned, and she was
taken in by a family through a foster, a white
family who she worked for as a maid, and got
herself to Howard University and was able to go to
India as an ambassador. Yeah, she went to India and
came back and my grandfather, who was studying to be

(21:46):
a doctor, asked her to get married. So I think
she would be and is very proud of me with
it all.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
I love. That's that's special to feel that that, yes,
to look back. So Jada, at the start of this book,
you talk about how you were and this broke my heart.
You were talking about how you were planning taking your life,
but then how it could look like an accident. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
That was twenty eleven. That was my fortieth birthday, my
fortieth year.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Actually, when I was reading that, I was just thinking
to myself. I was like, what were you hoping that
would achieve Like, what were you hoping that would solve?
Talk us through that?

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, it's funny because when you're in those states, you're
not clear. It's not like it's going to make rational sense, right.
You want out of the pain, and you cannot imagine
your only way out is death. You think in your
mind you've tried everything, and you're like, so like, God,

(22:54):
I can't do this. I can't keep doing this, and
so that's your only solution. And I tell people all
the time, you know, We've had a lot of different
spotlight of people I've taken their life. People go, I
cannot believe it, and I'm like, you just never know
what somebody's going through. And there are certain people that

(23:15):
have a high tolerance for being able to put on
a good face in order to not burden people. But
what is really interesting is that when you have a plan,
sometimes that gives you enough energy to just keep going

(23:37):
because you're like, Okay, I got a good plan, so
if this gets really bad, I know where to go.
And you're like, Okay, I'm just going to keep trying
to figure this out and keep trying to figure this out.
But I got this plan and it's really tough because
you don't want to for personalities like myself, you don't
want to burden anybody. And you're like, look, if I

(23:58):
can't figure out how to get out of this, nobody
else is gonna be able to figure this out either.
That was a really, really painful It's a really painful time.
I'm sorry. I'm really grateful that I found a way out,

(24:23):
but I think about people who don't find it, and
I wish, I wish there was like one thing I
could say, one piece of advice, you know, like what
would you tell somebody in a situation like that? And

(24:45):
all I could ever say.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
Is please just keep going, keep trying, keep walking, trust
because if you trust, and I know how difficult it.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Is, you know for people who are in it, like
it's easy for you to say, but if you keep trusting,
the universe will open a door. And I know how
hard it is to just wake up and keep it going,
because for me it was hard just waking up in

(25:19):
the morning. If I could get to four o'clock, I
was like, okay, you made it another day, being able
to have enough strength to just get up, get out
of bed, put clothes on, get through your day. And

(25:40):
let no one know that you're struggling. It is so hard.
I feel really blessed. You know, when plant medicine came
my way, it saved my life. And I know that
there's still a lot of whatever around plant medicine. But
I'm going to tell you like this, and I'm not
saying that that's for everybody, because my way out was

(26:06):
a rugged four nights and it was just my thoughts,
thoughts about myself. It was just my self hatred. The
level of self hatred you have that I have had
to want to take my own life and I had
to walk four nights to clear up look at be

(26:29):
with that level of self hatred. I was like, you
want to talk about walking through the valley of the
shadow of death that I'm really grateful for that experience
because after that one night, I never thought about suicide again.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
After the ceremony.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
After the ceremony and it was really my last resort,
I was like, Okay, this has been brought my way.
I'm going to try this and it worked. Praise God,
Thank you. That's a really painful place for me still,
and just thinking about how many people are sitting in

(27:10):
that place, it really breaks my heart, trusting God. That's
those moments where I just have to just be like, God,
these are your children. You will take care and I
pray that God you will provide the door you have
provided for me.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
Thank you for being so vulnerable with us. I want
to give you a big hug.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
I love you. Thank you. You've been such a wonderful friend.
I really have. You've been by my side through some
really tough stuff, only for more time, only for more
challenges to come along the way.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Never you know, I wouldn't have had the fortune of
getting to meet you, And I'm really glad that you
You know, we're so vulnerable with us just now, because
I really feel like there's more people than we think
that have those thoughts.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Trust and believe it. You trust and believe it. There's people,
there's people that you see every day that you would
never believe. It's so funny to have that level of
strength and that level of vulnerability and just you know,
despair and at the same time that level of like

(28:33):
helplessness that could drive you to do something like that.
But a lot of times we just don't know how
to communicate it. I didn't know how.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
I no one knew like the will.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Oh no, and they knew I was very unhappy. That
wasn't a secret, and people didn't understand why either. So
let's talk about that for a minute. The shame that
comes with those feelings, and specifically, like everybody feels that

(29:06):
level of shame. I don't care what station of life
you're existing in. And I would say I'm unhappy and
people would look at me like I'm crazy, what are
you unhappy about? And so then I just went in
even more because I was like, They're right, Look what
you accomplished. You've got this great family, You've got a
great life. You got the house, the car, this and that.

(29:31):
What's your problem? So then that's a hot cup of shame.
So then you just I just shut down.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
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(31:05):
such a great note to put out there, because I
think so many times we think like that about maybe
our friends.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yes, just like you have somebody, you.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Have so much. Yeah, that language can be so.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, and I would suggest anybody don't say that. Don't
say that to somebody who's saying I'm having a tough time,
I'm struggling. Yeah, this you have that, No, what's going on?
Tell me help me understand.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah, as ridiculous as it may sound to you, right
to that person, that thought has been repeated so many times. Absolutely,
even if it seems ridiculous to you.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, it can be so farign I get it. But
that is somebody trying to step out and talk. So
we have to have we have to be receptive. Is
not to look at it, you know, and that is like,
that's tricky too, because really being able to meet somebody

(32:12):
where they are versus trying to meet somebody where you're at,
and that in itself is a skill set. Just being
able to go, Okay, hold it, what am I missing here?
Let me just take a minute, let me blend with you,
let me join you. I didn't have that, and it's
nobody's fault, you know.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
I'm hoping that anyone who thinks anyone in their life
is struggling will share what you just shared with us
with them to start a conversation to open up that
dialogue because I think you just said it now and
it brought a thought to my mind that real love
or real compassion is when you help someone get to

(32:52):
the next step in their journey. Yeah, not in your journey.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
And that means being able to be present with them
wherever they are. Yeah. It seems like a foreign, alien
land to you. I really feel like, if anyone has
anyone in their life who's struggling, please send that to them,
Please share that with them, because that they need to
hear it from someone else who's been there. Sometimes also

(33:19):
because if you've not been there, you don't you may
not know how to say. And I think that's the
other thing, right. The other side is one side is
we say, oh, you should be happy, you're fine. The
other side is we try and fix it.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah you can't, right, Yeah you can't, And that solve it.
Can't There is no right you can't solve it. The
best that we can do is, like, you can try
to meet them where they are and let's get help.
We can do it together and hold hands and get
them to someone professional. I will say, it's really healing

(33:52):
when someone can join you. It's also having that boundary
of understanding too that you can only do but so
much as well. A person has to really want help.
And that's why I would tell the person that might
be struggling to just stay open, to try everything.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
You know.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
I mean, like I tried ever rethinking until I found
the thing, and just keep walking until you find the thing.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
That obviously happens a lot later on, even though you
start the book with that, but there was a time
when you believed that Hollywood, having it all, would do it,
would do it, Yeah, even before you get to this point.
And so and also what I find fascinating is you
grew up where like drug dealing was normal. You were

(34:47):
in that scene, you were meeting people. Everyone around you
was in that scene. You weren't as from what I
gathered from the book, in the time we spent together,
there weren't a lot of people who were breaking that mold.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
No, what was it that made you you a believe
that you could move to la when you were eighteen
and break that mold and that you didn't have to
fall into the pattern of everyone around you? And at
the same time, secondly, what was it that made you
believe that that would solve it that that was what
was missing.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Thank goodness. Along the way, I had great mentors like
Donald Hicckin, you know, at Baltimore's School for the Yards.
That was like, Jada, you've got more talent in the
pinky of your your little pinky than most people have
in their whole bodies. You know that He forced me
to go, you know, into that audition for North Carolina
School for the Arts, and that's what got me out

(35:38):
of Baltimore so that I could just get away from
that lifestyle and break that mentality right. And then once
I got immersed again into my arts, I was like, wow,
I really love this. And once I click into something
like my mind goes perro, you know what I mean.

(35:59):
And then Pop came to La. Well, he wasn't in La.
He was in northern California, and Pot kept saying, you
gotta get out here. Is popping, you know what I mean.
And now he's like, you gotta come out here and visit,
and so I was like, all right, I'm going to
get out there. Pop was another one too that was
just like you got it, Jada, you got it, And

(36:21):
I'm like, all right, I'm coming. So I told my mom.
I was like, you got two choices, cause I still
wasn't quite sure yet.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
You know.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
I was like, I could go to LA and see
if I can do this Hollywood thing, or I could
become a lawyer and take all my dramatics to the
cart right into the cartouse. And she said, We're going
to La.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Once I got to La, I was like, you're here,
make it happen. And part of what made me think
that I could do it wasn't just about talent, but
was just my perseverance and just my go I'm a
pitbull when it comes to when I want something, you know,

(37:10):
especially in my youth. I'm not so much pitful anymore,
but in my youth. You know, once I put my
mind to something, I was like, go get it. And
I really felt like how everybody else feels, you know, like, yo,
once I make it, once I'm rich and famous, all
my problems are gonna be solved, you know what I mean.

(37:31):
My problems are gonna be solved, My mom's problems are
gonna be solved. You know, everybody's probably gonna be solved.
I got this, you know what I'm saying. So and
that was a trip because that wasn't the case. And
I think that that's still prevalent. People feel like once
you get to a certain level of success, you are
exempt from the human experience, you are exempt from the

(37:57):
human condition. And the truth is that is not the case.
And let me tell you. I had an existential drop
in realizing hold it, wait a minute, hold it, Like
my career is popping. I got money, I'm hot, I

(38:23):
got every dude everywhere wanting to you know what I mean?
Like I can have anybody I want. Why am I
not happy?

Speaker 2 (38:33):
God?

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Now, this wasn't This wasn't the plan. I couldn't believe it,
because that was the whole idea. You make it, you
pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, you make it
in life's great and thank goodness. At that particular point
in time, I had pac that I could go, like
we could share that together because he was going through

(38:56):
the same existential disappointment. He thought this same thing. That
was like the beginning of just like, wait a minute, then,
if it's not this, then what is it.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
It's incredible that you had a support a friend in
in Tupac. You had this amazing friend who is saying
you've got this you're talented and that can really help. Yeah.
And at the same time, there's a whole nother inner journey. Yeah,
that has to happen with it. So that was externally,
it was empowering, it was inspiring. It was great to
have someone believe in you and we don't need that.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
And at the same time, it was like this other
reminder of.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
The inner world was not together yeah at all and
being completely ignored, you know. And it would take me
years to realize that that, Oh no, it's not just
about what's happening on the outside, Jada, But if your
inner world is not your foundation, it's all sand castles,
you know. I had a nervous breakdown. Then I moved

(39:50):
to Baltimore. I get a farmhouse there and I'm like, okay,
I'm just gonna get out of La. So I'm making
a geographical move, like I just got to get back
to my roots, get back to my roots. And then
Will comes along and I'm like, maybe that's it. I
need a man you know that is like latch onto that.

(40:11):
It's like, Okay, that's my new prozac. Will. You know,
He's gonna now it's his job to make my life better.
That doesn't work either, So the egos just attached to
all these different exterior things until eventually, you know, I

(40:32):
had to crash into really having to look at the
shambles of my inner world and rebuild it and rebuild it.
And I say rebuild it because I feel like when
we're born, that inner world is intact. But I had
to really strip it all down jay to the bear bones,
the bolts, and just start inwardly from the bottom and

(40:58):
just build. And it's been a wild ride. It's been
a wild ride of what that means and what that
looks like.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
When it comes to your friendship with Tupac, which you
speak about so beautifully in the book, and it's so
wonderful because we get an insight into him in a
way that you don't as just a fan of the music, right,
so as someone who grew up listening to him myself.
It's like you get a certain perception of someone who's

(41:28):
intelligent but then also has this gangster lifestyle and persona,
et cetera. But then again, when you get context and
you get to know about someone through someone who actually
knows them, right, And what I really appreciate, which I
found fascinating, was just how you had the wisdom at
that time to know that someone would be a special

(41:50):
friend without being romantic with them. Yeah, for us about it,
because I feel like a lot of people struggle. Yeah,
he was obviously into you and when you first met,
et cetera, the way you describe it, but it's like,
and there's even one point where you dare him to yeah, yeah,
And I want you to tell that. But but what

(42:12):
I find fascinating and what I want to help people
with here is like, how were you able to create
and build a relationship with someone knowing initially that it
was based on some attraction, right, but actually you knew
there was so much more to it. How were you
able to allow that to unfold? Because I think so
many of us get so scared if we're not into someone,
we go, Okay, I'm just going to push them away,

(42:33):
or that person eventually tries to make a move anyway.
But here it was like this beautiful respect. This you
both created that.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, we both did. We both had the intelligence. You know,
we were both really young, So I think I think
the Great Supreme for this too. That there was no
physical chemistry between us. I mean literally, it was like
and I try to explain this to people. It was

(43:03):
the same for Pac. It was just like when I
dared him to kiss me, he was I mean, it
was like ill for us both right, And it was like,
how can that be? How can you feel so connected
to someone of the opposite sex. There was just this
beautiful understanding, you know when you can just sit with

(43:26):
somebody in the room and you don't have to say
a word and there's just this level of comfort. We
just knew each other. The moment Pac saw me and
our eyes and I saw his peanut head across the
room at Baltimore School for the Arts, it was like
I knew him already. We just got each other. I

(43:46):
just understood him in that understanding, and he understood me.
So we could pull each other's coattails, but we could
also join each other. When I talk about that joining,
when you can sit with somebody and really feel like
they see you, they understand you, they care about you,
and they're gonna be there by you no matter what.

(44:08):
That was Tupac. He was gonna ride with me no
matter what. He was so authentic, and it's rare that
that level of authenticity, and he was so he had
wore his hard on the sleeve, and there was just
this amount of loyalty between us, and I think also
the fact that we both struggled with mothers who were addicts,

(44:32):
and we tried to compensate for one another of not
having that peace, and we didn't boohoo about it. We
understood how to fill in the voids without getting all
hallmarky about it.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
And so it was so we just kind of knew
how to flow with each other in a way way
that was very comfortable. Yeah, it's always hard to kind
of explain because it was like, it's almost like he
was really a kindred That's the only way I could
really explain it. And I feel so lucky and so
blessed that I got to know a being like himself

(45:19):
in that way because he was such a dynamic person.
But you can feel it because his music is still
lasting for generations now, absolutely, you know. So he was
just a treasure.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Teach us what's the difference between sexual chemistry and energetic
connection or authentic connection, because I think we often think
that to get close to someone you need that, and
here it's not just about the fact that there wasn't
attraction or there's more to it in that. I feel

(45:53):
like there's a subtle difference in how you were able
to accept that there is an authentic connection. But it
doesn't have to include it doesn't physical chemistry in order
to have a deep energetic connection, If that makes sense,
is it?

Speaker 1 (46:08):
I actually think in my experience some of the deepest
connections that I've had with men have not included sex whatsoever, right,
And I think that sex sometimes can cloud things. A

(46:29):
lot of things come in that a lot of people
don't understand, so you know, whether it's like certain levels
of emotional trauma, all these kinds of things. Energetically, the
heart to heart spirit space has a level of purity
to it where even if things get difficult, like when

(46:49):
things would get challenging with Pocinae, we could get to
it fast and there's just a level of purity and
it's not a tack to I want to make things
right with you so I can sleep with you. You
know what, It's not that agenda. The agendas are pure.

(47:10):
They're more pure and it has more space. It's like,
I love you, but you got to live your life.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
I can I can be.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Truthful, I can be honest. I think that with us,
I could be more of myself because one thing I
knew about Pac I never had to worry about, you know,
when we had big blow ups, which we did all
the time, he's coming back. I never worried about that.

(47:41):
I'm never worried. Oh my god, No, listen, what.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
It's a year?

Speaker 1 (47:46):
What it's a year, a week, three days. I had
to love all that Pac was. He loved all that
I was, the good and the bad, and he was
going to be right there with that and vice versa.
That was one of the most beautiful aspects of our relationship.
We didn't have to fake it, we didn't have to
pretend to be other things, and we could be honest.

(48:08):
He could pull my coattails, I could pull his coattails.
I could give him all the praise and love on
him all I wanted to and not have to worry about, Oh, oh,
now we're gonna have to have sex, you know, like
none of that, because that wasn't happening. We just didn't
have We just didn't have it. I think if Pac
had survived Vegas, he and Will would have ended up

(48:33):
being really good friends. You know, they would have had
a lot to offer one another. And funny enough, Will
was the only person when I started dating him. Pac
never said anything. If I dated anybody else, Pack had
had something to say. He didn't think anybody was good enough,
which I understand, right, But when I started dating Will,

(48:57):
he didn't say anything which meant to me in his
own way he approved, right, right, He didn't say anything.
It was was like okay, a not a word which
made me believe he approved.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah. No, I think it's it's so beautiful to reflect
on that friendship because I think it's so hope giving.
There's so many people who you know, sometimes lose out
on those kind of relationships because we don't see where
else it can go. Oh, there's so much value. There's
so much value to that. And there's the you know,
the part of the book where you talk about how

(49:34):
you never got to be there when Vegas happened, Like
you weren't there, You hadn't talked for a year. I
think at the.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
Time, big, Yeah, we had a big blow up.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
What would you have said to him, or what would
you say to him? Or what what? What did you
want him to know? Or what were you so sure
that he already knew? And you're thinking to yourself, I
just wanted to remind him of this, what would that be?

Speaker 1 (49:56):
I didn't have to remind him of anything. He knew
it pak, I adored him. I have no doubt in
my mind that he left this world knowing that. Yeah,
that's never been the issue for me. We did that
dance a lot. Sometimes have blow ups, and we're both

(50:18):
very stubborn, and I'll let people read the book to
that blow up and what led to that. But I
think sometimes what sometimes still hurts is that me feeling
like maybe I couldn't do enough once he left, Like

(50:39):
I'm thinking to myself, oh my god, what would pack
have done? Like if it had been me in a
car in Vegas and got you know, he would have
read Tavoc. So that ego sometimes comes into play, like
just feeling so helpless that he was taken in that

(51:00):
way and there was nothing I could do. To this
day that gnaws at me.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
You know, for what it's worth, I really believe that
the way you write, and by the way everyone who's
listening and watching, there is so much more to unpack
in the book, which I highly recommend you read as
you're going through it, and you'll come to this part.
But I really believe that the way you honor and
appreciate and respect your dear friend in the book is
really beautiful and special and it's like it's hard to

(51:30):
describe as well, but it's a really wonderful lens into
a human is so, you know, larger than life in
so many ways.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
And I wanted to also kind of there's been so
many misconceptions about our relationship because people are like, you know,
have a difficult time understanding that he and I could
actually be friends. But just wanted to give people such
just an insight on, you know, the beauty of our
friendship that I just cherish to this day so very much,

(52:02):
you know. And I wanted to give people a different
outlook just of who he was. And I'll say who
he is because he still exists so quick, you know,
but so I really wanted that to come across.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, we got to understand him, I think
through you through the perspective of not a rapper, not
a icon', not a but a human and a friend
and like what he was like as a friend. And
I think that that's a very intimate way to know
about someone. So I love that I wanted to talk
to you about you. You mentioned there you were like

(52:37):
Will was the only person that Puck didn't tu Puk
didn't have an issue. And I love that, and you
know how much I mean, you know, I've always been
open about it, and we've talked about it, and I
met Will through you, and it's like I I've always
said that when I met you and the whole family,
and when I met him, you were everything in more

(53:00):
all of you are everything and more right. And what
I mean by that is everything i'd wanted you to be,
plus so much more right. And he's that too in
so many ways. And I think that it's really interesting
because when you're talking about in the book of like,
I love the conversation you refer to, and you're like
your mom's like, you know, get him off the phone.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
That's one of her moments, Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
But what I love about it the most is that
it is true that from the outside, as you set
it up, it looks like a fairy tale and it
felt like that. And what I find really fascinating about this,
again and again and again pretty much with everyone, is
that there is no fairy tale love anyway on planet
on the planet, and you know, in our own little way.

(53:49):
I always talk about this with me and Radi too.
It's like we'll do an interview together where Radi will
tell me all the challenges she has with me, and
she'll be crying and upset, and then everyone in the
comments will still be like, you guys are saying so cute. No, no, no,
But we're not trying to say we're cute. Like this
is like real issue, like real stuff that you know,
we've talked about it obviously, you spend a ton of
time in me and Radi, and so I think for me,

(54:11):
what's really interesting is that, yes, from the outside, when
you see two incredible actors, performers, artists, talent get together,
you're like, wow, powerhouse couple. Everyone projects their expectations. You
have beautiful, adorable kids, you know, like Jaden's acting and
he's like the cutest thing in the world, and Willow too,
And it's like it's so interesting because we also we

(54:34):
like to build up our dreams in people, and we
like to project our dreams onto people because I think
as viewers it makes us believe that it's possible, and
we live through people and we aspire for it not
that we aspire for the success and the fame, but
that we aspire for the like, well, if they can
get it right, then I can get it right. And

(54:55):
it's not it's an innocent, absolute belief that we all have.
It's not a we we all have that inside of us,
So we all have this. I know that I had that,
like you know, I was searched it the other day
and it's a term, it's Disney princess syndrome. And I
was like, I've had Disney princess syndrome like myself, like
a ton of times, and it's so fascinating to be

(55:17):
for anyone who doesn't get the reference. The point is
that every Disney princess is always looking for her princes.
Oh yeah, And I would say regardless of gender, that's true.
Like I feel that way where I've been looking for
my princess or my win or my award or whatever
it may be. And I wanted you to walk us through,
like what were the stages and how would you define

(55:39):
the stages as you do in this book, your stages
of your relationship with Will, because I feel that that's
the part that people get blurry because they're looking at
it through their lens. But you both have been so
clear about stages of your relationship internally, which I actually
think is the hardest part. And so how would you
define the stages of your partnership? Will that help people

(56:01):
understand like the conversations that you're having behind the scenes,
from like being madly in love to you know.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Yeah, wo the stages of getting to the most authentic
and it's difficult. So I just want to honor that
for a second. Like it's almost like talking about relationships
and the romanticism around the idea of relating is sometimes

(56:34):
as detrimental as talking about politics and God because it's
such a staple in how people look at marriage and
relating culturally right, and all of the romanticism around it.
And Will and I have been what I would consider

(56:58):
kind of the relationship goals, this romanticized version. I had
to in my own relationship with Will dissolve my romanticism
around what I thought marriage would be should be. And honestly,

(57:19):
we really never had what I would consider the ideal
honeymoon stage, you know, even though you do have the
honeymoon stage. But our relationship started with some challenges, you know,
because he was divorcing, and then our life just took
off like a rocket ship. We just took on this

(57:44):
huge life in our early twenties, and where his focus
was really about, Hey, I want to be the biggest
movie star in the world. And I knew that going
into our relationship, and I knew there would be sacrifices
with that, and then along the way, and I talk

(58:05):
about this in the book, just having those different perspectives
and really trying to figure out how to reconcile those
different perspectives and also deal with a lot of challenges.
So I think one of the things that I address
in the book in regards to, you know, people thinking
that we've had an open marriage and we haven't had
an open marriage. I talk about starting off pretty much

(58:32):
early on in our marriage of having the need for transparency.
And that is a big difference between hey, you can
do whatever you want, you know, versus like, hey, here
we are very young people in this place called Hollywood

(58:55):
that has a lot of temptation. Let's have a partnership
around this. Let's be very very realistic of what this
life is. If we're talking about we're going to be
together forever and ever and ever, that means there's gonna
be some temptations that come up. Let's be in partnership
and let's talk about that. I didn't go into my

(59:16):
marriage like I am going to be my husband is
never ever ever going to look at anybody else.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Like I.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Just I am just a realist in a lot of ways.
I know what it's been like for me right when
I first came to Hollywood and I could go into
the clubs and have anybody just the level of just
like that, just like it's just like you just it's

(59:52):
so intoxicating. That's one. Now, what I do believe that
what people don't know that I talk about in the
book a lot is that there have been several breakups
between Will and I. Will talks about it my fortieth birthday,
which was a big breakup for us. We were actually

(01:00:12):
looking towards separating and divorcing, and we separated. The world
just didn't know. Then we had a reconciliation, and then
twenty sixteen came and we had the ultimate break but
the world didn't know. And I think that that's where
some of the misconception about having an open marriage came

(01:00:35):
into play, because we were living lives as single people
and the world didn't know. Over the span of twelve
years of just trying to figure out this thing called
love and marriage between Will and I, it's been a trip.
And I think that even with that entanglement piece, which
I talk about extensively in the book, how I played

(01:00:59):
a part in the conception of that narrative of allowing
myself to be portrayed as an adulteress, allowing myself to
be portrayed as someone that had betrayed Will, and that
wasn't the case. We broke up in twenty sixteen. He
went on to live a life as a single man.
I went on to live a life as a single woman.

(01:01:21):
And then when we had the talk at the Red Table,
I was going to go to the Red Table by
myself to talk about the entanglement, but Will decided he
wanted to come with me, and we were going to
then tell the world, Hey, we haven't been together, and
this happened during that time. Well, when we got to

(01:01:42):
the table, Will wasn't ready. He wasn't ready, He wasn't
ready for the world to know that. I had to
respect that. Well, I didn't have to, but I wanted to,
But I was ready. I was ready to let go
of the persona I had created around myself that had

(01:02:04):
put me in a golden cage. I wanted to let
that go, and so I had to stay on my journey.
I had to stay on my path while also respecting
that will wasn't ready. So I said, you know what,
this is my mess anyway, I'm going to take this
heat because guess what. The heat is coming either way,

(01:02:27):
whether when we decide to get divorced, when we decided
to separate, whatever, whatever, this is my practice. Run strip
it down, let it go, Jada, and then let's see
what's left. I didn't have to put that particular show out,
but I had already gotten myself so ready for that

(01:02:50):
journey for myself and to me, that was moving closer
to my freedom than holding back and creating a narrative
that I felt like was just going to entrap me
more and as difficult as it's been, because the irony is,
I spent so much of our relationship having this open

(01:03:12):
communication between the between he and I, creating this beautiful
friendship of authenticity and honesty, and so to be labeled
as someone who had cheated on him was devastating, But
it also put me in a position where I had

(01:03:37):
to learn how to let go of what anybody thought
about me and really be ten toes down on understanding
who I am and being able to walk in that
no matter what anybody thought about me. But I needed
that journey for myself.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
It's kind of like that is the walk when they
talk about walking on hot coals. It's like creating that
level of when we talk about that inner world work
and creating that like strong foundation within yourself of knowing
exactly who you are no matter what other people think
about you. I mean, I've gotten that to a certain degree.

(01:04:21):
And so that was a very challenging moment, and I
talk about it in the book because I feel like
so many people are challenged in that way of like
how can I just walk in this world and be
okay with myself no matter what? And I talk about

(01:04:43):
the journey, you know, really extensively in the book. But
there have been so many misconceptions about my relationship with Will.
But I think that everybody suffers misconceptions. Once again, whether
you're head of that PTA and your husband's that doctor,

(01:05:03):
and you're the lawyer, you know what I mean, You're
you're like the Crume Delo Crame of your friend group
or you know, of your community, and so everybody's expecting
you to have a certain kind of marriage. And marriage
is a journey, you know, And it's a journey towards

(01:05:23):
learning how to love yourself and learning how to love
your partner. And there's not one way to do it.
And everybody, I think we do that journey a real
disservice of trying to make it this cookie cut thing
like no, no, no, you can only do it this way.

(01:05:45):
And it's like each and every person in their relationship
they have to look at what their relationship is calling
for in regards to what is needed to get your
marriage to the love, to the strength, to the understanding,

(01:06:07):
to the friendship and to that unconditional place. And the
unfortunate part is that we think once we get married,
like somebody's ready made, they know how to love you,
even though they don't know how to love themselves. They
don't know they don't know how to love themselves. But
you better know how to love me.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
I want to highlight because I think it's often it
can be missed. At least, is you know when you
had that conversation on Red Table Talk. It would have
been so easy to not have that conversation publicly because
people would have their rumors. Yeah, it would blow over
and then it would be over. And I'm only raising

(01:06:46):
this because I know how much for you it was
part of the work you were doing. Yeah, And that's
why I'm raising this because I think what's really interesting
is that when someone's trying to do deep in a
healing work. Yeah, actually, more often than not, their external
way will not make sense.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
Oh yeah, first, because it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Literally looks like you're setting yourself up to fail. Because
when you're really trying to dismantle the ego or you're
really trying to deconstruct the false identities that we all
build up me included all of us. Like when when
that is there and it's being deconstructed, someone would look

(01:07:28):
at you and be like why would you do that?
Like why do I need to know what? And really
I just want to highlight and I want you to
share about that that the intention was healing. The intention
wasn't to save face or the intention and I know
this because we were talking about it. The intention wasn't It.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Wasn't to save face, and it surely wasn't. And I
need people to know I didn't ask Bill to come
to the table. Yeah, that was not my idea. Will
wanted to come to the table because he didn't want
me to be there by myself. He had all the
best intention yea, and got there and was I think
his trauma response kicked in, like I'm not ready. So

(01:08:08):
many people were like, don't do this, and I'm like, nah,
I'm doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
For myself, for myself because I want to live, because
I'm ready.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
I don't want this whole thing anymore, this whole data Will,
I'm done with that. It was part of the work
that I was ready for and it was what I needed.
And everybody's in different places in their journey. Also. That's

(01:08:41):
also a dynamic I had to look at within myself
in regards to So it's two things. There's this healthy
data is like tear it down. I want to. I
don't want that persona anymore. Terror I ain't go down.
And there was this other part of me that was like,
oh my god, I need to pretend. You know, he's
not ready. You know he's not ready. My you know,
codependency kicks in and I go, this is what I do.

(01:09:02):
I'm the martyr. I can do the martyr thing. So
once again, it's both things. It's healing like I'm ready,
like I'm ready for I'm ready for the tear down,
and then this martyr that's like and I want to
make sure Will, as long as you're okay, I'm okay.

(01:09:23):
That's part of my relationship with my mother's addiction that
I brought into my relationship with Will. That created a
certain dynamic within myself in my relationship with him that
I also needed to get my eyes on that I
didn't see that that needed to be healed as well.

(01:09:45):
Without that table, without that moment, I would have never
recognized that as painful as it was for people to watch,
existential disappoint meant in a collective. I'm so sorry. I
wish it could have happened another way. I'm sorry that

(01:10:06):
it had to be so messy in front of everybody.
I'm sorry, but I needed that what I got to
clear up, what I got to clean up, what I
got to see, and to be able to sit here
with you today and embrace it all and have so
much acceptance for myself for all of the choices I've

(01:10:29):
made and people ask me, if you had to do
it over again, would you do it any different?

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
I don't think so, honestly. Like knowing and talking to you,
I found it to be so courageous and so full
of strength because it was putting yourself on the spot,
like in no other way. And I can't even begin
to understand how uncomfortable it is. I only can from

(01:10:58):
the conversations we.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
Had, Well, you were right there with me day at.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
The level of discomfort. Yeah, you were willing to put
yourself in in order to let go of an identity,
in order to let go of a perception. Like I'm
saying it in these words because I just want everyone
who's listening watching just to think about it for a second. Like,
imagine you had to go in front of everyone you knew,

(01:11:24):
your family, your friends, your school, whoever it is that
you're around, your people at work, and you had to
share a secret that wasn't a secret between you and
the person you're with, but was a secret to them.
To just think about that whatever that secret is, right,
Everyone has secrets, everyone has something you know, and to

(01:11:44):
do that requires just so much courage and strength, And
it also shows the I think you were just apologizing
that it was so messy. I also think that it
is uncomfortable, like growth is uncomfortable, and like letting go
of shedding identities is uncomfortable. And I'm not comparing my
experience to you as at all because it's not the

(01:12:04):
same in any way. But I'm trying to explain how
like a tiny PDA like my kind of like version
of it is still as big. I remember the day
I told my friends and my family and my teachers
that I no longer thought I could be a monk.
And it sounds so small like now that but at
the time as someone who would like I was dedicating

(01:12:25):
my life. You've met my teachers, you know I'm dedicating
my life. I'm like doing this big thing. And then
all of a sudden, I come to the conclusion that
this thought in my head of I'm not good enough,
I'm not a monk, I'm not meant to be like,
this isn't my path, whatever it may be. I think
I should get married, you know all the stuff, and
you're so you feel so much shame around the fact

(01:12:46):
that you're not good enough and what are people going
to say? And even for me, that was just my
temple community and my friends and my family, and even
then it was like as if someone was ripping my
ego out of my chest. Yeah, because that's what it
feels like. It feels like an extraction of you know,
not that I'm ego less now, but that was such

(01:13:08):
a big way of crushing that part of my ego.
And so I just want people to think about it
through that perspective. And I'm saying it because I think
that we all go through periods in our life where
people misunderstand us. We all go through periods in our
life where the people we thought loved us and adored
us will now be let down. We all go through

(01:13:28):
experiences in our life where we have to let go
of someone that we thought we were or what people
thought we were, and those are going to be the hardest,
most painful times. And actually, if we can learn to
be graceful instead of when our friends are getting divorced
and we're like, did you hear so? We had that
couple of people in my community back at home just
got divorced. The whole community is talking about it, and

(01:13:51):
I'm just like, guys, like, we have no idea what
was going on for the last ten twenty years. Let's
give them grace because you never know, and that could
be you. You have no idea when it could be you.
You know, we're so it's so easy to to judge
and throw stones at anyone and everyone, like you know,
And I just really feel that if we have the

(01:14:13):
ability to be graceful and compassionate when other people are
doing that, yeah, we'll actually do it with ourselves. And
because we're hard on ourselves, yep, we're hard on others,
we're hard on others, we're hard on ourselves. And I
just for me, I just want to see more people
be graceful for themselves and for others because there's so

(01:14:35):
much human experience wrapped up in it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
So yeah, that's my hope too, you know that people
can have more grace for themselves. But I tell you,
I think one of the saving factors was that, you know,
there were no secrets between Will and I. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
And there were no secrets between my kids and I. Yes,

(01:14:57):
So the fact that my family was absolutely aware of
the entire journey, it was a saving grace for me.
Whatever the world wants to think is whatever you know,
Will knows he was not betrayed. And my kids know
that I did not betray their father, and that to
me all that matters. But it was quite a exercise

(01:15:24):
of having to walk in the world like that, you know,
having people think that that's what happened. Just having that
exercise in that way has been such a healing factor
for me of just the level of self love, the
level of self worth that I have because of what

(01:15:48):
that experience has offered me. And I'm not saying that
anybody else should do it on that level, you know,
But what I am saying is that there are ego
deaths that have to occur in order to get to
a more authentic place of self worth and self love.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
And I want to talk about the little gurus, as
you call them in the book. We start with Trey,
who you know this book is dedicated to your daughter
and the daughters of the people that read it, and
to your sons yea, and to the sons of the
people that read it. And I wonder, what is it
that you think you've learned from Trey, that you've been

(01:16:29):
taught by Jaden and that you've been taught by Willow
in your journey with them all Because you have such
a whenever I've seen you with them. You have such
a deep, beautiful, rich relationship video kids. We were talking
about that earlier. Yeah, I would love to know what
is it that each of them have taught you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
Trey, he has such an enormous heart. And I think
what I love about Trey is his ability to meet people,
join people where they are, ability to join me. He
has a way of seeing the best in people, no

(01:17:06):
matter what, the best in circumstances, no matter what, and
even in his most challenging times challenging relationships, having the
willingness to see the person's spirit versus personality. And he's
always reminded me of that. You know, mom, you know

(01:17:29):
that person? You know what I mean? And I'm like,
you know what trade you?

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
He and I have kind of been walking parallel. We'll
look over at each other and go, I see you,
and he goes, I see you. You know, you know
what I mean? And so you know, we're the two
in the family that's really been on a intense walk spiritually.
And he has so much perseverance in regards to understanding God,

(01:17:58):
finding his way understanding life. I don't know if you know,
he's just such a he's such a light, you know,
so iron sharpens iron. He'll walk in the kitchen and go, mom,
look at me, what do you think I'm feeling today?
You know what I mean. Or he'll look at me
and go, wow, you know you're you're like bright, what's

(01:18:21):
going on with you? Like he can just see me
and he can see people, you know, and I'd be like, wow,
how did you see that? This is happening? This is
that He's like really, you know, and he's he's just
he's just such a light. He's just such a joy.
And so he just is always reminding me to look
for the best in people. And I just adore him

(01:18:43):
and is why he's a bonus, you know. And then Willow, Oh,
she's such a fireball. I mean she she is like
the mirror of the fire of my soul when I
tell you, she is the mirror of that, Like I
get to see myself in her in so many ways.

(01:19:09):
What I love most about Willow is that she is
to the point, you know what I mean, she is
like she doesn't have a whole lot of play play.
She's just like no, no, she just hits it on
the mark. Where sometimes I can be very flowery, you know,
very gentle. And I also love how she loves me.

(01:19:33):
She teaches me a lot about love. She teaches me
a lot about When I talked about being able to
join like, she teaches me a lot about how to
join her and how to join others in ways that
I'm not used to. I know how to join others
in ways that I'm used to, but me having to

(01:19:55):
learn how to join her in a certain manner. I've
had to come out of my comfort zone and really
be like, oh man, I'm very deficient here, and her
patience with me with that deficiency, She's so patient with me.
She's like, it's okay, Mom. You know sometimes that I
don't need you to talk to me. Mom, just hold me.
I'm like, oh, that's all you want me to do?
You just want me, That's all. I'm not used to that.

(01:20:19):
You know, I don't come from a family where affection.
You know that we don't. We don't hug each other
and hold each other. That's not what we did. But willowy, Ma,
I don't need your advice. I just want to sit here,
hold me while I cry. And then I have to
learn how to I've had to learn she's taught me
how to hold tears and really be able to join

(01:20:40):
with those tears and not rebel and you know, like
have them repel because then they bring up my tears.
And so she's learned. She's taught me how to love
my tears too, you know, those places within myself that
I haven't always been willing to go, you know. And
now I cry all the time, you know, And I
call it the thawing because for so long I wasn't allowed.

(01:21:02):
I didn't allow myself to cry, you know. So she's
taught me that. And then there's Jaden. Oh man, Jaden,
he's just walking joy. I mean he comes in the room,
it's just like Jaden, you know, he's just walking joy.
But he was like that when I carried him. I

(01:21:24):
was the happiest I had ever been in my life
when I was pregnant with Jaden. And I think that
I had a lot to do with the energy that
he carries. He has the capacity to love everything, and
that is difficulty, challenging people, challenging situations. He has the

(01:21:46):
capacity to love it all and find the beauty in it.
And I'm talking about sincerely, and it is like that's
a god given gift. That's not you can't teach that.
So he just I was sitting out, you know, I
was just talking to him the other day and I
was just like, oh, I was reading this book Emotionally

(01:22:07):
Immature Parents, and I was like, Jane, you got to
read this book. Your mother has been an emotionally imstry parents.
I said, you got to read this book. And he said,
you know what, ma, He said, things from Afar can
look a certain way, but when you put a microscope

(01:22:30):
up on something and you look at it close up,
he was like, it is such a weird shape, weird
beautiful shapes of things, but you get to see the
intricacies of it and it's so much more. And that's
what you are to me. You're like this beautiful, intricate
organism that I love so much. Don't ever apologize to

(01:22:54):
me again, you know what I mean. And that's just
how his mind works, you know. And he comes over
and he hugs me and he kisses me on my forehead,
you know what I'm saying. And he's like, you gave
birth to me that, don't ever apologize to me, you know.
And he's like, and I'm not reading our book I'm

(01:23:15):
gonna get you the book anyway. You know, I'm always
apologizing to my kids about all kinds of things. I
think it's so important for parents to apologize, say sorry.
You know, I've gotten in the habit every little like
if I misunderstand something, or if there's like this like
little glip, you know what, I didn't quite get that,

(01:23:38):
then I'm so sorry. I apologize. I'm gonna do better
next time with that, and thank you for your patience.
I think it's important, you know. I wish my father
had apologized to me more. My mom apologizes too. I
actually learned that from her. She's apologized a lot, and
I actually said the same thing to her now that

(01:23:58):
i'm thinking about it, apologizing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
But isn't that that those are the best relationships where
someone does something yeah, and the other person is like,
it's fine, yeah, And that's what kind of It's that
relationship where internally you're happy you heard it, but you
know you didn't need to the person still felt the
need to say it, and it creates so much clarity.

(01:24:24):
And you know, when I told Willow you were coming
on today, she sent a little note oh, because I
was I was talking to her about it, and I
was talking to her about the book, and so she
sent this little note that I want to read to you.

Speaker 1 (01:24:41):
If that's okay, Oh my god, let me keep my napkin.

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
So she said, this is from Willow and Willow. If
I don't read it as you would in your amazing voice,
then please forgive me. I'm also apologizing to you in advance. Mum.
I am incomprehensibly proud of you and all of the
inner excavation you you have done during the writing of
your book. There were many times during the process where

(01:25:06):
you would read me sections and deep emotions would come
up for us. Both learning from you through learning about
you is one of the biggest joys of my life.
You never cease to inspire me with how wide you've
opened your heart, not only to the immense joys of life,
but also to the deep uncertainties and shadows with equal

(01:25:29):
gratitude and grace. You have shown me true tenderness and
true strength come from the same place within, and that
is something that I aspire to show others. Thank you
for loving me. I'm so grateful for you.

Speaker 1 (01:25:48):
And the Guru. That's the little Guru right there, there,
it is.

Speaker 2 (01:25:53):
She loves you so much, and they will obviously love
you so much. But when I read that, and when
I was reflecting on it, is just and as me
and Roddy always talk about this, because we've watched you
in Willow so many times together and it has been
so inspiring to us to see that connection you both
have and the openness you have with your kids and

(01:26:15):
how well they understand you. And you know, as you
were just saying, you always apologizing, but that's what they're seeing. Yeah,
they see that because you're so willing to share with them.

Speaker 1 (01:26:28):
Yeah, I don't keep secrets from my kids. I've let
them see my deepest flaws. And I think that's important.
I mean, and not in the way that we have
to be careful with that too, but I mean just
as far as like it's okay to be human, not
being afraid to show my humanness, because that's the one
thing with my mother that I have so much gratitude

(01:26:49):
for that I could see her as a human being
and my relationship with you know, my mother being an addict,
and me being able to relate to her as not
just my mother, but as a woman, you know, as
a person. And I think that was one aspect that

(01:27:10):
I felt like I really needed to bring into my
relationship with my kids for them to see me as
a person ran this together.

Speaker 2 (01:27:20):
It comes across. When I've witnessed it. It's the most
beautiful thing. I could only ever dreamed that when RATHER
and I are able to do that, that you know
that we you will have what you have. It's really special.
It's remarkable to watch in practice. And I mean that,
you know, the message says it all, But Jedda, I

(01:27:42):
wanted you know I throughout this book and even in
this interview today. I think I was going to save
this to say it later, but I'm going to say now.
I've been sharing spirituality with people in different ways since
I was eighteen years old, and I was so young

(01:28:04):
and immature then in my spirituality, and I still am
today and that will always continue. And I've just been
fortunate to sit at the feet of incredible teachers and mentors,
and so any realization I've had earlier than I should
have had, it is because of sitting with elders, and
you know, sitting with the teachers I've introduced you to.

(01:28:24):
And I've rarely met someone who's as eager for healing
as you. I don't think I've met a family that's more.
We're healing is the top priority, right And it's such
an interesting thing to perceive in someone because you can
tell by someone's language and when their eyes light up

(01:28:47):
and their body language changes as to what they are
motivated by. And ever since I met you, from the
first day we met backstage green room for Red Table
Thought Series two launch day event, I was getting to
host and interview you, Dan and Willow, and I remember

(01:29:08):
you'd ask me like, what did you learn as a monk?
And I'd said to you, I was. I was giving
to you the what I did learn as practices, but
I wasn't getting to the root of it. So I
was explaining the practices like gratitude and meditation and mindfulness
and service, and were you were kind of just like, oh,

(01:29:31):
that's cool, like you know it was. And then I'd
said to you because I felt a inner voice say
that I should, and it was truly guided from within,
And I said to you, I learned how to love God,
And that was potentially the first time I'd even said
that in that way to someone. And you, just like

(01:29:54):
your whole body language and your eyes and everything just changed,
and everyone else was late. So we were just talking
and you were like, I want to learn how to
love God too. And you'd obviously already been on that
journey for decades, like you know, and you talk about
in the book where you started with the Ethical Society, right,
you know, that had been a journey that had been
a part of your journey forever. But it was so
interesting to me to meet someone and an entire family

(01:30:18):
who is more focused on healing and growth and and
God in their own way, in your in your own language,
and your own in your own ways, than than anything else.
I've never we've never had a conversation that steers too
far away from any of those things, which which says so,
and we have fun and we have a good time
and everything, but that and the reason I raised that

(01:30:39):
is because I also saw that when you were talking
about Oscar's night in the book, you referred to as
the holy slab and the holy joke, And you've always
looked at everything through the lens of how is this
bringing me closer to the divine? I remember one conversation
we had about the femine in divine, and I'll never

(01:31:02):
forget it. Because we at this point we'd been doing
we've been talking twice a week for like a year
and a half or something, and we were talking about
a specific aspect of the divine feminine, which is often
left out or forgotten or hidden. I had never seen

(01:31:23):
anyone respond in a way so sincerely and genuinely to
a vision of God as you did, and you said,
with tears in your eyes, You're like, I've been looking
for this God for twenty five years. And I remember
just going like I could just see the genuineness and

(01:31:47):
the sincerity in your eyes, and I was just like, wow,
like I hope I can love like that one day,
Like that's actually what I felt like, as it was
so inspiring. And I know that I've got closer to
Divinity through our work, and that's because of your seeking.
And you've pulled me closer to the divine through your seeking,

(01:32:10):
which you've given me the greatest gift, like for years
and years and years ever since I've known you, and
it's your ability to look for that. And so I
wanted to talk to you about you know, I think
when it all went down on Oscar's Night and you
talk about this in the book and so I want
to leave everyone to read about it in full. But

(01:32:33):
the perception was that you were so offended that you'd
kind of urge this action, which is bizarre in and
of itself for so many reasons that you lay out
in the book. But I want to hear from you, like,
what were you actually hurt by about the condition that
you were going through? And in that gap between what

(01:32:57):
we saw and what we didn't get to see, which
everyone had their own theory on what was actually your
thought space, where were you?

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
Let me start with that was a really layered moment.
Let me start with also that there was so much
that people didn't know in regards to what was happening
with Will and I at that time. And I will
leave for people to get the book because there's so

(01:33:29):
much history and in present. Yeah, break it down, break
it down, and I did exactly. It's so much history
that I think would give people a lot more context
to understand that moment. Let me also say that I
know there was a difficult moment to watch because of
history that Chris and I had in regards to the

(01:33:53):
twenty sixteen Oscar so White. And I'll let people read
to get up to speed. On that. But when I
first saw Chris's name come on stage, come up as
one of the presenters, I said, oh boy. I looked
to Will and I was like, he's not gonna be
able to help himself. This is going to be something.
I was like, I knew, I already knew, and I

(01:34:14):
was like, okay, so Will have been going back and
forth backstage all night. So when Chris said what he said,
I looked to Will as if to say, see, I
knew it, right, And then I was like, oh boy,

(01:34:35):
that's not cool to like talk about a medical condition
that people there's nothing you can like, it's not something
that can be cured, right, And that how many stories
I had heard of people, you know, young people committing
suicide and the shame and just how many people suffer
and you don't even know. Like once I had the

(01:34:58):
condition and I saw how many people around me had,
I was like, all these years I didn't know, and
people expressed the shame, the level of shame they had
around it. I'm gonna be okay as far as my condition.
And as you can see, my hair is growing back.
That's what it does. It'll grow, it'll fall out, it'll
grow back, again, pieces of my eyebrows will fall out,

(01:35:19):
grow back. You know, I'm having a good moment right now.
My alopecia is not as extreme as most people who
are dealing with that condition, and I just felt like,
that's not okay. So I wasn't upset about me, and
I don't remember actually rolling my eyes. I think what

(01:35:41):
people saw was me looking at will going I told
you I knew he was going to do that, and
oh boy, here we go again. Yeah, you know, oh
here we go. But I wasn't upset about me. It
really wasn't. It wasn't about me. It was just all
the stories I had heard and that I continue to
hear about people who have suffered from this condition.

Speaker 2 (01:36:05):
And obviously you didn't want what happened to happen. Like
I think that was just clarifying. I know, I'm just
clarifying it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
Of course, it wasn't like I looked at Willison, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:13):
Yeah, I know. And that's the kind you know, those
are the kind of moments of context. Yeah, I lost sometimes.

Speaker 1 (01:36:19):
Listen, there was an aspect of that that I was
as shocked as anyone, because will and I hadn't been
referring to each other as husband and wife since twenty sixteen.
I was like, wife of me, that's right, Yeah, I'm okay,
that's right, I am your wife, and that kicked in.
I'm like, yep, here we are in that moment that

(01:36:42):
that did happen. I was like, we came together, We're
leaving together. You know that part of me that put
everything else aside and was like, this is going to
be something I need to make sure Will's okay, We're
going to get through this. I had no idea that
that was none whatsoever, and I came as family. I

(01:37:03):
actually didn't go to the oscars as Will's wife, and
I know for people that's weird, But what was going
on behind the scenes, Will and I had been said
like we weren't living as husband and wife since twenty sixteen.
I was happy he asked me to go. I was
happy he wanted to share that moment with me still
and I was going to be by his side. And

(01:37:25):
I think also people weren't really aware of the journey
that had taken place after emancipation. As far as Will's concern,
it was a really difficult movie, and afterwards he decided
to get into therapeutic settings and he asked me to

(01:37:45):
join him because a lot of stuff was coming up,
a lot of stuff from his past, childhood stuff. I
think people didn't understand that there was a history there
between he and Chris as well, So there was a
lot of contexts that people just didn't have. You know,
I'm going to tell you something else. I understand why
people thought it was me. I understand why people blame me.

(01:38:06):
I don't think it's right, but I understand, you know,
considering the narratives that were out there that I was
part of. I have to take responsibility for that. And
I talk about that in the book. You know, me
being the adulterous wife that had, you know, push Will
to his limit. I get it. So I couldn't even
take any of it personally. And I had to put

(01:38:26):
myself in the shoes of the audience and go, if
I was looking at this, what would I say? I
probably would have said the same thing. And then that
made me really look at like, oh man, Like, culturally
we're always blaming women, Like I had to really go
deep into that, why do we do that? You know
that none of power that have so much of their

(01:38:51):
ownness in their life, but when something bad happens. It's
a woman's fault, you know what I mean. It's so interesting,
you know, and I had I really started to examine that,
but more so just looking at that narrative and taking responsibility.

Speaker 2 (01:39:05):
And at the same time there was love and compassion
for Chris. There was that.

Speaker 1 (01:39:10):
Oh yeah, you know. I talk about that in the book.
I've worked with Chris. I know Chris am I always
a fan of Chris's stage work, No, but Chris as
a person, he's a sweet guy. There was a moment
when Chris came down to the end of the stage

(01:39:33):
and you have to understand, I'm in deep confusion. I
don't know what's going on because of me understanding the
context of Will and I behind the scenes, what just
happened on the stage. I'm worried about Will. I've never
seen that from him. I don't know what's going on.

(01:39:57):
But Chris comes to the end of the stage and
he looks at me deeply sincerely, and he says, Jada,
I meant no harm, and it was so sincere in
his eyes. I'm like, that's the Chris I know. That's
the Chris I've experienced. That's the Chris that a lot

(01:40:17):
of people don't get to see because people just see
Chris on stage doing what Chris does. But I'm glad
I had that moment because with everything else that transpired afterwards,
you know, his Netflix, certain comments and all of that,
I could hold on to that sincere moment. So when
we talk about looking past personality, when somebody has had

(01:40:39):
that opportunity to show you their heart, to show you
their spirit, that's the truth, not all the other stuff
that hurt, misunderstanding, confusion might bring up. So where my
feelings hurt when I heard what was happening as far

(01:41:00):
as the Netflix, of course my feelings were hurt, but
I didn't take it personally because I remember I can
see his eyes right now as I'm talking to you,
and that's the truth of Chris's spirit, Jada, I meant
no harm. I talk about it in the book. It's like,

(01:41:21):
you gotta have grace when we're hurt. I'm not saying
that I agree with how it was handled. I don't
agree with it, but I understand. And so my hope
is that there will be there's such a beautiful opportunity

(01:41:42):
for healing, and my hope is that that will occur.
It's time. Everything needs time. You have two beautiful men
who have hurts and who have hurt one another, but
they're both beautiful men. And as I said before, my

(01:42:06):
hope is that these two very capable, beautiful men at
some time figure out how to resolve this whole thing
of the present and of the past, you know, because
life is about healing.

Speaker 2 (01:42:25):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:42:25):
It's like life's too short. And you know, sometimes conflicts
can really amplify love. They really can. I know it
has for me. And that's why I called that chapter
the Holy Slap, the Holy Joke, the Holy Slap, and
the Holy Lessons because through all of this conflict that
I've been in the midst of all this misunderstanding that

(01:42:48):
I've been in the midst of, it's helped amplify love
within my heart. It's made my heart more elastic hate,
and I really have been able to understand how hate
has a ceiling. You know, hate aggression, well, you know
it has a ceiling, whereas love is oh wow, but

(01:43:12):
it takes so much courage, and it's so easy to
go into aggression. It's so easy to go into you know,
hateful feelings. It's easy. And I can't blame anybody for
doing it, and I have no judgment because guess what
been there done that?

Speaker 2 (01:43:33):
You know, Joda, when you started today, you said that
you know, this is your journey from being unlovable to
trying to find love again. And it's really it's really
the true story of all of our lives, of just
we're all on that journey of being unlovable, thinking that
if someone loves us, we'll be fine. Then thinking that

(01:43:56):
if we get or achieve this will be fine. Then
they if I love this person perfectly, then I'll be fine.
And it's that we keep filling in that the sentence
between unlovable with too lovable, with so many versions. And
I think what this book, this memoir does so beautifully, honestly,

(01:44:17):
is you show us every version that you tried to
fit in.

Speaker 1 (01:44:21):
That gap, right, every version.

Speaker 2 (01:44:23):
Every version that you to fit in that gap. You're
just showing us the reality of what that comes with,
like the pain that comes with trying to fit everything
into that gap. And I appreciate you for doing that
because it's it's hard to not turn every story into
a fairy tale ending, yeah, perfect ending, and there isn't

(01:44:44):
that here, And I think that that's what truly makes
it relatable. It's what truly makes it applicable wherever we
are on our journeys on that spectrum and anyone else's.
And it's why I said that I really hope that
anyone is on that journey themselves, we'll pick this book
up and be able to notice which gap they're trying

(01:45:06):
to fill it with, Yeah, and come back in if
that sounds if that feels right.

Speaker 1 (01:45:11):
That's really right. It's like because you're right, it's like
all these it's like, Okay, that didn't work, let me
go over here, let me try this, and then it
just nope. You got to you got to heal you,
and you got to really get with a power higher
than yourself. And I want to thank you for really

(01:45:34):
being so helpful in so many ways, Jay, in regards
to you talk about I mean, we've been on such
a beautiful journey together in that way of just learning
and deepening our relationship with God individually together. I so

(01:45:56):
appreciate you for that. I mean, you have been so
interestrument that way.

Speaker 2 (01:46:01):
I genuinely can't take any credit, like I'm not even,
I'm not even and that's not even me, that's not
me being umble and modest. It's it's me just saying
that in the same way as you feel people came
into your life to you know, accelerate their journey and
reconnect you like you did the same for me and
Radhi like a in a physical way. You all of

(01:46:22):
you have given us so much family, We've celebrated so
many thanksgivings. Yeah, we've had you over for sunga every
you know, for days and days and weeks and months
and years, and you know you've given us so much.
And I don't I think that's what I think this
book does. I think that's what we'll do for our friendships,
is that I got the opportunity to build a friendship

(01:46:43):
with you that was based on nothing else but healing,
growth and the divine and that kind of relationship just
has a different energy. It's really special when there's nothing else,
there's nothing else that would have made our paths cross.
We don't work together, we don't have we don't do

(01:47:05):
business together, we don't have the same friends like you know.

Speaker 1 (01:47:09):
But but but this right.

Speaker 2 (01:47:13):
I'm so grateful to watch someone do the hardest work
and I'm going, yeah, I need to do it too,
Like and I admire it because I see it from
that perspective with you, and I always have that You're
not trying to take the easy way out. You're not
You're not just looking to fix it with a band aid.

(01:47:33):
You're not just hoping it will go away. You're like, no,
I'm gonna sit there with it. That is just I
just that is such an uncomfortable place naturally for ninety
nine percent of people. Yeah, I'm in all of you
because of it, and I always will be. And I'm
just I'm I'm so happy that you decided to put

(01:47:55):
it into writing because this isn't about clarifying. It isn't
about people getting a sense of what really happened. That's
not what it's about. It's about how can we sit
through that discomfort that we're going through in our life
and choose healing and growth even when it's the hardest
thing and the farthest thing away from us.

Speaker 1 (01:48:15):
Listen, if things get cleared up from reading this book, great,
but that's not the purpose, because I actually don't think
you can.

Speaker 2 (01:48:22):
You can't.

Speaker 1 (01:48:23):
Yeah, you can't. It'll just be more stirring up whatever
other things right, And it's really which is why it's
even more important to really be able to have a
strong sense of self right, and not to be looking
for external things to be to substitute what you have

(01:48:46):
to have inside in order to know your place in
this world. This place is crazy. And to try to
make the material space, the material world a line in
a way for your comfort. That's it can't start there.
It has to start within yourself. That how you see

(01:49:09):
and what you attract you is in alignment with what
is happening here, right, But looking for the world to
buoy you up or accept you in a certain manner. Nah,
Like I said before this, can you just give some
little bread crumbs to help people get to a sense
of self worth that gives them that comfort no matter

(01:49:30):
what is happening. You know, if you've brought freaking chocolate
chip cookies with peanuts in them to the school fair
even though kids might have allergies in the school that
wrote you a letter and said don't bring products with peanuts,
and yeah, right, you made them with love. And now

(01:49:54):
the mom group is on your neck. You can be okay.
You can be okay with your victories, and you can
be okay with the inevitable challenges that life is going
to deliver. It's okay either way. You're okay, You're worthy,

(01:50:19):
you're lovable, peanuts and all.

Speaker 2 (01:50:22):
So, Jada, one of the things that you mentioned was
that you went to the Oscars as family, but not
as a wife. Yeah, and I wanted to ask you,
how do you define the status of your relationship now and.

Speaker 1 (01:50:39):
What is it like, you know right now? Of course,
we've had it's been an intense two years and we've
really been doing some deep healing together. And that's why
I was saying before, the idea of how just really
disruptive situations can amplify love in a certain manner because

(01:51:03):
it kind of forces you to have to dive a
little deeper. That's what we've been doing. We've just been
growing together and see what happens, then see what grows
from there.

Speaker 2 (01:51:16):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:51:17):
But like I said in the book, it's like we
have this beautiful friendship and we really look at our
marriage as being the cornerstone of family. We're both kind
of coming up with different definitions of what marriage means

(01:51:38):
for us. We're still figuring all of that out. Yeah,
but the beautiful part is that there's been some really
deep healing going on. Yeah, I mean you know that.
I mean, at the end of the day, that's what
it's about. Marriage is so much about growth, like really

(01:51:59):
learn how to grow emotionally, like emotional maturity, spiritual maturity,
and there's this spiritual bond there. I mean, we've tried
our best to get away from each other. I mean,
I mean our best, and we just don't want to.

(01:52:20):
So we are defining it the way that works for us,
and I think getting comfortable with not being concerned about
what anybody else thinks about it. We have this life
partnership and every day we're trying to figure out what

(01:52:43):
that means.

Speaker 2 (01:52:45):
You've both talked about how you feel like you're a
mirror for each other. Yeah, and when I've spoken to
Will as well, it's like he feels like you're the
person who knows him to his call.

Speaker 1 (01:52:55):
Absolutely, he know you to your care.

Speaker 2 (01:52:58):
Like you know everything. Yeah, that potentially there is to
know about each other, and you're obviously still learning.

Speaker 1 (01:53:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:53:06):
What's really interesting about that is some people would say, well,
why not just get divorced.

Speaker 1 (01:53:09):
Yeah, everybody's always like, why don't you just get divorced?
And it's like, hmm, that's like quitting I don't think
there's any person that could embrace the best and the
worst of me and be able be willing to hold
space in the way that will hold space for me

(01:53:30):
and the way that I hold space for him. And
I know that most people probably go into their relationship
as like you were here to please me, and yeah,
our relationship isn't quite.

Speaker 2 (01:53:44):
That, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:53:46):
It's like it's more about there's no greater mirror I
could have than will he doesn't. I can't get around
myself just like he can't get around himself with me.
And I think that that's just been what this has
been all about, Like it's been a deep clearing, like

(01:54:09):
really having to look at yourself in ways in that
mirror that Sure, we talk about this all the time.
Would it be easier to go and find somebody else
and have a more pleasing, more comfortable relationship, maybe, But
would that get me to the person that I really
want to be? I don't think so. And I'm not

(01:54:30):
saying that everybody's relationship is supposed to be that. I'm
not here to say that. I'm just saying that that's
what my relationship is, that's something I desire to get.

Speaker 2 (01:54:42):
To a.

Speaker 1 (01:54:45):
Deeper part a more spiritually sound, emotionally sound and really
understand love unconditionally. And the thing that I've learned about
uncondition love, you can't really understand what unconditional love and
ideal circumstances to really get to what it is to

(01:55:11):
love yourself and someone else completely with all that's divine,
all that's human, all that's perfect, and all that is
deeply flawed, and have full acceptance for it. All I
tell you this is you know, marriage is not for

(01:55:35):
the faint at heart. It's just not. And it is
definitely I believe, I believe. You know, different people get
married for different reasons, so I'm not trying to say
why anybody else should be married. But for me, the
holy path of getting to a divine aspect of myself
in partnership with Will, and it seems like Will wants

(01:55:58):
the same for himself, and it's taken us, you know,
I mean, we got together it what. I was twenty three, okay,
twenty three when I first decided to commit myself to
Willard Carrol Smith, Lord Jesus, so young, so young. We

(01:56:23):
were babies, babies trying to figure this out. And you
know what's interesting about young relationships you create these young
patterns that get so like these really young, immature patterns
in yourself and how you relate to your partner, and
then you create these dynamics between one another that it

(01:56:44):
takes a while to like really be willing to look
at that stuff and dissolve it and let it go
immature and grow. It takes some real like self inventory, patience, courage, right,
because you're breaking down everything, all your romantic ideas, everything

(01:57:09):
you thought you know, relationship or marriage, all your romantic
fantasies you know, just you know, blow up in flames.
But it's really been freeing. It's really been freeing to
see what's more true.

Speaker 2 (01:57:31):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:57:32):
I'm not saying that I know the truth yet. I
just feel like I'm seeing more of what's true, you know,
as regards to what love and partnership is about. Because
I was definitely one of those people that's like, you're
here to make me happy, and when you don't do it,
that's a problem.

Speaker 2 (01:57:51):
And that's a normal setup. That's how we believe relationships are.
And you know, I've talked about it before and I
put it forward in my book, this idea that we
think pleasure is the ultimate gift of a relationship. But
really purification is and that's a really tough idea for anyone,

(01:58:11):
including me. I haven't perfected that idea for me to
wrap my head around. And I can honestly say that
I love Radi and you know you've seen us both
together and everything. But the greatest gift Radi gives me
is a mirror and a purification of Rady can call
out my ego better than anyone or anything, and I

(01:58:32):
know it's coming from a good place. Radi can show
me my flaws in the nicest, most supportive way possible
and can receive it back from me. And then I
feel like because of her, I'm trying to be better,
getting better, not.

Speaker 1 (01:58:48):
For her, for myself.

Speaker 2 (01:58:51):
It's almost like the person that you live with knows
you so deeply, or the person that you've seen has
seen you in all circumstances, in all situations, knows you
the deepest. I always say, Roddy knows whether I woke
up in meditated in the morning. Yeah, Like Radley knows
whether I got angry or frustrated at night after a
phone call. Like Radley knows that. And if I use
that to my advantage of am I becoming? Am I growing?

(01:59:16):
But it's such a hard concept for people to understand
because it's so counterintuitive to the pleasure seeking mind that
we've been conditioned to chase. And again, I'm not saying
we shouldn't have a pleasure in relationship. That's not the
point I'm making. I'm just saying that there's more to it,
There's another level.

Speaker 1 (01:59:33):
There's definitely more to it. And I think we've talked
about this before, you and I as far as people
believing that romantic love is the highest form. Now, I
believe that romantic love is an aspect right of a
higher form, But I don't believe that romantic self romantic

(01:59:57):
love itself is the highest form right. I believe within
the highest form you can have romantic love, but that
romantic love is not of the highest right. And that's
all I've been examining and exploring with Will and really

(02:00:18):
trying to understand the power of unconditional love, friendship, Like
there's something about friendship, familial love that is beautiful. But
when two people can have an agreement around divine love,

(02:00:42):
like love of a source greater than yourself that you
want to be connected to, and then you decide that
your relationship is going to be connected to that same source.
Oh boy, now we're on to something. Now we're onto something.

(02:01:04):
But to think that romantic love can hold all of
the difficulties and challenges alone, And I think that's why
so many of us get into these power struggles. And
while there's so many divorces and why they're you know,
just all of this strife and relationships, you brought up

(02:01:26):
something that was really important and it's the idea of
Roddy when she can kind of pull your coattails with love.
And I think that's it takes a lot of work
to figure that out, like to not be offended when
someone shows up imperfectly, and that those are those kind

(02:01:50):
of pieces within relationship, Like we feel like people are
supposed to come ready made. You walk down the aisland,
it's like he knows how to love me, you know,
I know how to love him, you know, and not
making room for that space of growth that is inevitable.
People are going to mess up, People are going to

(02:02:11):
do stupid stuff, People are gonna say stupid stuff. Now,
when it comes to abuse and all of that, that's
a different story, right, But people who are willing to
learn how to love each other, because I really do
think that's what committed relationships, about marriage or not. I'm

(02:02:32):
committed to learning how to love myself, learning how to
love you right, and then learning how to cultivate this
relationship that we have with that essence, with those components.
Then that's a beautiful thing. That's what I believe the

(02:02:55):
holy path of relating is all about. And not everybody
wants that totally. You know, some people really just want
the romantic version of it, and.

Speaker 2 (02:03:04):
That's okay too, Absolutely, that's.

Speaker 1 (02:03:07):
Okay too, you know. But for me definitely on that
path of looking for something deeper within myself mostly, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:03:21):
How did you let go of that desire for romantic
love but then hold onto the friendship? Because I feel
like that's a journey that is so hard, whether someone
stays married or gets divorced or like you both are
you described yourself as best friends. How did you hold
onto friendship being able to let go of the mirage

(02:03:43):
that you had earlier, or even not even the mirage
the reality of what you had earlier, as you talk
about in the book, you know, the chemistry, the spark.
I think, yeah, so many of us are trying to
hold onto that, but you've let go of that, And
then you're saying, but we've held on to the friendship,
the mirror, the work, the growth. That sounds like the
hard way through it.

Speaker 1 (02:04:01):
I think it's how people show up, and people don't
always show up perfect clearly. But one thing about Will
and I, we're just not willing to give up. It's like,
I'm lucky that we just want to have each other
in one another's life. Right, you have moments of disharmony,

(02:04:26):
but if you know that you're not willing to not
have that person in your life, you know you got
to put forth the effort and you got to put
forth the work to transform whatever's not working. So we
always make the decision to take that one step closer

(02:04:50):
to diving more deeply to learning how to love. And
most of the time it has more to do with
self inventory, having to go on the corner and look
at oneself and then come back and go, I was tripping,

(02:05:12):
whether it's I'm sorry or I had a misunderstanding. Can
we look at this now together, Because now I've looked
at it in my corner alone, and I've seen my part,
and I want to talk to you first about my
part ABC and D right, and then inevitably usually your

(02:05:36):
partner go, well, you know, I could have done such
and such a such, and so when you have an
agreement that's really unspoken of, like I want you in
my life and I want to have good times with
you and I love you, then that's the energy that

(02:05:57):
nurtures and keeps one willing to just keep working at it.
So there's that deep love. And the great thing is
that Will's got a great sense of humor, you know
what I mean. He's got a really good sense of humor.
So he has a way of being able to help

(02:06:19):
me get out of my funk. But I'm kind of
like you talk about this a lot with Roddy, where
I kind of have to take my time, Like I'm
not always ready to talk right away. I need to
like sit, I need to be with myself, I need
to kind of like work through my thoughts and all
of that. Where Will is always ready to talk. I
like to go deep. He likes to get funny. The

(02:06:39):
great thing about him, he can go deep. And there
are times that I really like to play and have fun.
So we're like these energetic fields, you know, I'm Earth
and he's Sky. You know, we are your typical Yin
and yang. You know that. You know, there's this great

(02:07:01):
chemistry there between us that just works. And but when
it doesn't work, oh man, oh man, oh man. You
know what I mean those moments, but it's just like, ah,
but I think that's just inevitable in every relationship.

Speaker 2 (02:07:20):
You know, But it just doesn't look traditional. I think
that's the point. That's that's the part where it's like,
it just doesn't look traditional. It well, yes, there's the trust,
there's commitments. Yeah, there's understanding, and at the same time,
it doesn't look.

Speaker 1 (02:07:34):
It doesn't look traditional. I don't know, I'm being honest
with you. There are aspects of traditional relating that absolutely work.
But I think in this day and age, I don't
know too many marriages that are traditional. I really don't.

(02:07:55):
Everybody is trying to figure it out, right, and I
think everybody's so scared to talk about all of the
different ways that they're trying to figure it out. I
know so many people who are like married but not
living together, married but have decided to have other partners.

(02:08:17):
I know so many people and have for a long
time that are trying marriage in so many different forms,
and my whole thing is figure it out for you.
Marriage is not a cookie cut out like formula. Besides,

(02:08:40):
I do think that there's some staples you know, love,
but he did not let me take that out for
a second. There's some people who are married strictly for
business purposes. I've seen that too. As long as there's
agreement between two people and how they decide they want
to be together, stay out of it. It has nothing

(02:09:03):
to do. I tell people all the time, don't look
at my marriage as being contagious. Whatever I'm doing doesn't
mean you got to be doing that. You got to
be doing the thing that works for you. And I
feel like every partnership two people have the right to
figure that out for them.

Speaker 2 (02:09:22):
And it's so different in norms, in different cultures and
different backgrounds. I mean, like for me and Radi, we
spend a lot of time apart because she likes to
be back with her family in London and I travel
for work, and so we discovered and agreed very early
on in our relationship that when I work, she would
often visit her family back in London and she loves

(02:09:43):
it and she wants to be with her mom and
dad and her niece and nephew and her sister and
brother in law and everyone. And I love my purpose
and I want to be traveling. I want to be working,
I want to be moving. And I remember so many
times in our relationship people be like, is everything okay? Yeah,
And then we go back to London, people be like,
why's your wife not with you? Or people like why
jin not with you? And everyone starts thinking that there

(02:10:05):
may be something going on, and it's actually, well, no,
this was our agreement. This is something we've sat and
talked about and figured things out, and actually we love
distance because we get excited to see each other again.
It's refreshing. It works for us, and again it may
not work for anyone else. Someone may say I need
my partner by my set every day fair enough, and
someone may say I want to travel more than you

(02:10:25):
do or less. But we just found that having honest
conversations between us and knowing why we were making certain
decisions even though they were abnormal to our community, the
community that we grew up in, where the way we
live is very abnormal, even though it's just about time apart.
The point was we had an agreement that worked for us,

(02:10:47):
and I think getting to know you both, I can
honestly say that I feel like you guys are both
always honest and communicative with each other on what your
agreements are.

Speaker 1 (02:10:55):
Absolutely, and that's what we.

Speaker 2 (02:10:57):
Have been discussing today as well, that there's always been
that that openness to do that.

Speaker 1 (02:11:04):
Oh yeah, well, I talk about it a lot in
the book, and I think that a lot of people
had a lot of misunderstanding as we talked about earlier.
I believe in regards to open relationship and being able
to be with whoever you want. Now, that's not what
was happening. And I think a lot of times that
people just didn't know that we had agreed to not

(02:11:27):
be together. As we were trying to figure out are
we going to be separated? Are we going to be divorced?
Then we would reconcile, and then we would break up again,
and there's all this back and forth between us that
we didn't share with the world a lot, you know.
And I think now people are just going to have
to be okay with our marriage is not traditional in

(02:11:52):
the sense of here we are married, but not you
know what I mean, And you know, as I'm on
my path and Will's figuring his thing out. We've decided
to hold space for each other and as we're trying

(02:12:13):
to figure out who we are. Will's lived a lot
of his life for other people. I've definitely lived my
life a lot for other people. And really having this
time for me, I need this what I've been able
to discover about myself in the last five years, six years,
I think now I've needed this time to really concentrate

(02:12:36):
on me and really developing like a relationship with myself.
And I feel like the better relationship I have with myself,
the better relationship I have with everyone else in my life,
including Will, and so I talk about that a lot
in the book. You know, just a lot of the
misunderstandings that have occurred, rightfully so, because it's been a

(02:13:00):
lot of mixed messaging, and then people are like, well,
you know, you guys have been on the real card,
you know, and all of that, We see you. We
never knew there was a breakup you weren't supposed to
that was between us, and at the end of the day,
we're always family no matter what. So I think that
the way we are deciding to be in a union

(02:13:23):
people are just gonna have to get with that. It's
probably not gonna look like what someone else is doing,
and that's just the truth of the matter, you know,
and we're.

Speaker 2 (02:13:36):
Good with that. I can definitely say that whatever relationship
anyone is in that we all get to a point
in our relationships, from mantic or otherwise where growing together
becomes the greatest priority. It doesn't matter how.

Speaker 1 (02:13:51):
We are, how we got there, or what's happening.

Speaker 2 (02:13:54):
That. I think that is the key I was saying
to that when I was writing my book A Rules
of Love, it was like the journey I went on
through writing it got me to that point of recognizing that, yes,
the goal of every relationship in my life is simply
to teach me something I have been unwilling to learn.
And the people that I'm closest.

Speaker 1 (02:14:16):
To, come on, Jay, Yeah, the people.

Speaker 2 (02:14:19):
That I'm closest to are the only ones that can
push me or pull me to seeing that whether it's
your mom, whether it's your dad, or your sister, brother, partner,
whatever it may be. And for me, I also discovered
through the writing of the book that the greatest love
story and I really really believe this. When I was

(02:14:42):
writing it. I was like, the greatest love stories in
the world are actually not romantic. The greatest love stories
in the world are generally human sacrificing themselves in the
service of others. Like you see people take on great
sacrifice to help people that they may not even meet,
or you see people like taking on a mission or
a movement that hmm, positively affects so many people that

(02:15:05):
they were never even connected to, Like those are the
greatest acts of love, or the act of love that
a parent has for their child that they extend themselves
in express and that unconditionality. You don't really see romantic
love being unconditional gender. It's interesting that trying to practice
and understand what unconditional love is and figuring it out,
which we all are, including me, But that journey was

(02:15:26):
really powerful for me to recognize that the more unwilling
I become and the more I hide from the lessons
that I'm meant to learn, the harder it gets, and
the harder the lesson gets and the test gets and
it just gets bigger and worse.

Speaker 1 (02:15:42):
It gets bigger, and you know the truth of the
matter is it's like I'm always going to be by
will side you know when I think about, like if
something ever happened to him, it's like, I'm gonna be
right there if he needs me, I'm going to be
right there always. That's just an unbreakable fact. That's the

(02:16:04):
bond we have. You know, We've tried to break it
in every which way you can think of. We don't
want to be in this lifetime without one another. It's
just not going to happen. So we're trying to figure

(02:16:25):
out what that looks like for us. And there's something
really powerful about that. I gotta be honest, as difficult
as it's been, as there's been times that I've hated
that fact having somebody that forces me to have to
raise my consciousness, evolve my understanding of love, to deal

(02:16:50):
with the fact of that bond that's a God given
gift because me and God got to get with that.
God has to be my mentor on how to love
Will and myself and care for the relationship that we

(02:17:12):
have through the eyes of the Great Supreme, not the
way Jada wants it. And so that has been a
beautiful surrender that I've really had to surrender because I
really feel like it's about the decree God was like,
oh no, in this lifetime, that's your person like it

(02:17:34):
or not, I don't care. So it set me up
to have to break certain ideas of my own personality
and my own ego and really surrender to what the
Great Supreme wants to teach me about love and about patience,

(02:17:56):
and about care, kindness, considerationness of myself, forgiveness of others.
It's deep, and I'm so grateful. It's been a painful journey,
no doubt, but the gifts that I get on the
other side of that discomfort, and when I get on
the other side of the discomfort, I go, I get it.

(02:18:19):
I could not have gotten that gift or that understanding
without that trial you gave me. I just ask God
these days, because you're making it a little easier, I
think I'm getting the groove, you know what I mean,
just like, come on, you know. But I've also realized

(02:18:40):
too that I'm getting to the point that when things
tumultuous things come about, I smile and I go, Okay,
you got a great one for me on the other
side of this bad boy, you know what I mean.
You just start to realize it's never failed in that way.

(02:19:02):
I remember asking Swammy. I said, do you think I
should get divorced?

Speaker 2 (02:19:07):
Wow, I didn't know you asked him?

Speaker 1 (02:19:08):
Now, I sure did, I asked Swammy, and he said,
you know, Jada, people take their vows very lightly these days.
And he said something to the fact that, you know,
when we stay committed to the vowels that we make,

(02:19:30):
we find what we need. And I was like, okay,
and I just stayed on track. I was just like,
all right, let me, let me just keep digging, let
me keep going. And he you know, he's right for
my journey. I can't say for anybody else for my
journey because he said, oh, this is what he said.

(02:19:52):
He said, people end up as friends in the long run,
and they're holding hands walking each other. And that's how
I feel. I feel like Will and I are walking
each other home as life partners.

Speaker 2 (02:20:07):
Well, Jada, I want to share one last thing with you,
if I can so. Earlier, I had a letter for
you from Willow Okay, and I also have a letter
from Will. I may need your help with you. May
have to reenact some words because I feel like you'll

(02:20:29):
be able to channel Okay, Will better than me. I
will not try and impersonate him. Because it won't go well.
But this was for you, Jada. I think it was
when we'll found out that you're coming on the show.
And all right, I was happy that he was able
to send this to me and so I could share
it with you, and I'll just read it and let's
let's do it in his words. Okay, so you'll have
to explain this one for us, I know, but I
want the audience ton So he said, congrats Dink.

Speaker 1 (02:20:54):
Okay, so let me just tell you what yeah, let
me let me tell you what Dink means. He's so crazy.
So when we play golf, he's my favorite person to
play golf with. So when we play golf, when I
hit my driver, it goes Dink. And so that's why

(02:21:16):
he calls me Dick.

Speaker 2 (02:21:17):
Who's better at golf?

Speaker 1 (02:21:19):
He's definitely better. But I'm getting to a point where
I can, you know, I can challenge him in a
good way on a couple of holes, for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:21:26):
All Right, Okay, congrats Dink. I just turned the final
page of Worthy, and damn, I'm going to get you
to do the damn How would he say?

Speaker 1 (02:21:37):
Damn?

Speaker 2 (02:21:39):
I just turned the final page of Worthy and damn
it is amazing to realize that, despite having lived most
of my life by your side, I still found myself
shocked and stunned and cought of God, laughing, then inspired,

(02:22:01):
then heartbroken. I was all over the place. It's one
thing to hear anecdotes at a family barbecue, but it
was truly overwhelming to take in your story potently condensed
in this way. You are one of one, a rare

(02:22:22):
blend of power and delicate sensitivity. I know it wasn't
easy to excavate the depths in that way. I applaud
and honor you. If I had read this book thirty
years ago, I definitely would have hugged you more. I'll

(02:22:46):
start now. Welcome to the author's club. I love you endlessly.
Now go get some merlo and take a rest.

Speaker 1 (02:22:59):
Hey, no, I can't. I have no more love. That's beautiful,
and that's why I can't divorce that joker.

Speaker 2 (02:23:12):
Yeah, there's one line that really hit me, and I
want to hear obviously, how you felt that he said,
If I had read this book thirty years ago, I
definitely would have hugged you more. I'll start now, how
did it feel listening to parts of that?

Speaker 1 (02:23:31):
You know, one of the things I talk about in
the book A lot is perspective. When we got married,
Will had to be twenty twenty nine. We had such
different needs, no right or wrong. You know, Will was
very driven. But I got married because I was pregnant

(02:23:57):
and I wanted a fam And now I must say
that was the one thing we both wanted to create
a family. We never had, but what we thought took
having a healthy family. Will believed, man, as long as
I get out here, make money, get the biggest house,

(02:24:17):
make sure you guys don't need anything. That's how you
have a great family. And my thing was like, no
but love and you know, me and you we got
a da da da da. You know, everything was centered
around feelings, love da da. We just couldn't find agreement
because we thought we had two different goals around what

(02:24:40):
it took. And so to hear him say that he
would have hugged me more is me hearing him say
he would have taken a bit more time to listen
and understand. And that doesn't mean that he would have

(02:25:04):
to be off his path, but just to take a
little bit more time to listen and understand. And I
think when we're young, because that was the same way.
I mean, when we were young, you just think your
way is the only way. And I think that where
Will and I are getting to now is understanding that

(02:25:26):
our ways. My way is just one way, his way
is just one way. And then how do we listen
to each other more to blend those ways. I was
very careful.

Speaker 2 (02:25:38):
And not.

Speaker 1 (02:25:41):
Going into romanticized regret after hearing that line. I wish
I could have hugged you more, but I will do
so now right. I was like, no, no, no, you're
not going to go into romanticized regret wo, because what
I know as a fact is that every step, everything

(02:26:07):
that is transpired between us has been absolutely perfect, all
the beauty and all the ugly to get us to
a place that we're coming to, you know, And you
could you could go, oh, I wish that, you know,
I had known this when I was younger. That's the
whole point of youth, you don't know, you know what

(02:26:30):
I mean. And then to really just to be able
to embrace like this time in my life and in
his life and coming into newfound wisdom and enjoy that.
But I'm so glad that getting closer to that blend

(02:26:51):
between us and That's what I'm saying. It's like, who
else am I going to grow with like that and
be able to have those that deep cherished moment of
like when you can look back at where you were
thirty years ago and where we've traveled to get to
this moment right here, right now, at this beautiful family.

(02:27:16):
Without him, I went, I've had Jaden, Willow Trey, Oh
my gosh, there are no greater treasures than those three.
And then all of the magnificent experiences he and I've
had together, the great ones and the not so great ones,
you know, but they're ours, part of our tapestry. One

(02:27:42):
thing I talk about in the book going to see
Ruby d when I needed some marital advice and she
told me laugh now, because you're gonna laugh later, And
it's so true. I didn't know what she was talking
about then, but she'd been married at that time or
fifty some years as Sie was gone, Ozzie Davis had

(02:28:05):
passed on, you know, And one of the things she
said to me, I said, what's one of your biggest regrets?
And she said, I wish I had laughed with him more.
And that never leaves my mind to just find ways
to get through the bumpies, to get through the bumpy stuff,
and let's get back to some laughter and some joy.

Speaker 2 (02:28:27):
This to you in any case you want to read
it again, Yeah, And I want to thank you for
you know, your vulnerability, your openness today and the vulnerability
in the book that you shed so profoundly today. But

(02:28:47):
the book you get to weave the tapestry together and
the lessons and where they come in your life. And
I really, I really believe that anyone who will read
this book will gain access to a much deeper understanding
of themselves as a mirror and also get an opportunity

(02:29:10):
to reframe, rethin, renew ideas perspective thoughts about their own journey.

Speaker 1 (02:29:20):
That is all that I want. Like, we have so
much fear around allowing people their journeys because we can
tend to get hurt within them along the way, but
it's inevitable. And the more that we can have acceptance
for the reality that life is a journey, nobody is

(02:29:41):
meant to be perfect. It baffles me. Well, actually, let
me take that back. It doesn't baffle me because I've
been there. It doesn't baffle me. I've been there where
Just being afraid to allow what is to be. That
is embracing our humanness and learning how to love each

(02:30:05):
other through our humanness. All this cancel culture and all
of this that is purely a rejection of aspects of
ourselves and a rejection of humanness. And that's where unconditional
love has its most power. Right. But if we can

(02:30:25):
learn to do that with us, starting with ourselves, right,
learning how to have unconditional love for ourselves and have
acceptance for our journey. And that's what I want from
this book. I'm just putting it out there like a
this is what my journey looks like, and it ain't cute.
This is what I've learned along the way, and this

(02:30:46):
is how I learned how to gain self worth and
to feel worthy about it. All about it, all about it,
all Jay, every piece of it. And that's all I
want for every anybody else. It's okay, it's okay. You
don't have to come down on yourself. And just because

(02:31:07):
we stumble and we might lose our way doesn't mean
we're lost forever. Thank you Charles Xavier from x Men
for that statement.

Speaker 2 (02:31:18):
I love that, friend.

Speaker 1 (02:31:20):
I do too. Charles laid it out just like that.
I had to put that quone in my book, but
it's true, and that's all I want for everybody. We
are all worthy, embracing it all, every aspect of our journey.
That is the thing that makes us worthy.

Speaker 2 (02:31:38):
We're harder on all this because we're so hard on ourselves.
We're hard on ourselves because we're so hard on others,
and that cycle keeps repeating itself. Point out someone's floor
because we're pointing them out in ourselves, but not looking
at the growth we're trying to make and the growth
someone else trying to make, the healing journey that they're on,
and the healing journey that we're on. And as you
were just saying that, what came to my mind is

(02:32:00):
that we all have to take the same steps, but
on our own path. And I think what this book
does so gracefully is show your steps, which reminds us
all that even if we trip and we fall, which
we inevitably will, there's still another step after that that

(02:32:21):
we can take. And that ultimate step is what you
just so beautifully put the step of recognizing that all
of it was worthy, all of it was part of
that journey towards self.

Speaker 1 (02:32:36):
Worth, and that you're loved. You're loved, and you're held
no matter what through all of the scrutiny and through
all of the I don't know stones that were thrown
at me as painful as all of that was, what
a beautiful gauntlet to get me to the understanding that

(02:33:02):
it's only our self judgment that's the true enemy. And
I got to cure so much of my own self
judgment through all of that. It's almost like being like
wonder woman, you know, per pre Pard, you know what
I mean. It's like the Great Supreme makes it so
that you're invincible to all the criticism, anything else anybody

(02:33:28):
has to say about you. When you get that true
sense of worthiness, doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, doesn't
matter what other misunderstandings are happening. And I want that
for everybody. It's a superpower, but it's not given without

(02:33:51):
the trial. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Thank you.
I'm so grateful and thank you Jay. Yeah, thank you,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:34:00):
Jay.

Speaker 1 (02:34:00):
You've been so good to me through it all. Thank you,
thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:34:05):
So grateful to you too as well, for letting me
be a small part of the journey, because it's one
that you give me the bravery to tread myself. So
thank you. If you love this episode, you love my
interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking
the power of manifestation. Anybody who hasn't spoken to their

(02:34:25):
parents or their brother, call them right now.

Speaker 1 (02:34:30):
Don't think you're going to have a chance to call
them tomorrow or next week.

Speaker 2 (02:34:34):
That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life.

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}1. The Podium

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Jada Pinkett Smith ON: How to Move from Shame to Self- Acceptance & Ways to Heal From The Past

1. The Podium