Vanessa Van Edwards: Stop Overthinking Every Social Interaction! (Use THESE Cues to Be Liked, Respected, and Build Confidence in Every Conversation)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, It's Jay Sheddy and I'm thrilled to announce
my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can
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(00:25):
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Head to Jsheddy, dop me Forward slash Tour and get
yours today. How do you let someone know that they

(00:48):
should make a move without giving any And that's the
Van Edwards best selling author and Researcheressmon Edwards.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
We decide how confident someone is within the first two
hundred milliseconds of hearing the speak. The best way to
show availability is one word and it sounds like this.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Tell me why compliments don't work? How do we tell
the difference between charisma and narcissism?

Speaker 3 (01:15):
The way you see the world changes the world.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
What are the negative cues we miss because we're infatuated
or attractive as hell?

Speaker 2 (01:23):
If you want to be treated with more respect, you
have to make sure It's.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Sheety Jay
Shettyly shet Hey everyone, Welcome back to on Purpose, the
place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed.
You know that one of my biggest focuses and services
is introducing you to experts who are obsessed and addicted

(01:50):
to their field. People who are powerhouses, who deeply and
intimately understand human behavior so they can help you improve
yours and spots sign of the people around you. Today's
guest is going to do just that. I want to
welcome to on Purpose for the first time ever, but
not the last time. Vanessa van Edwards a multi time

(02:11):
best selling author, renowned behavioral researcher on professional communication and leadership.
More than fifty million people have seen Vanessa's talks on
YouTube and how viral ted talk as well. Vanessa's work
has been featured in national and international media including Entrepreneur Magazine, CNN, CBS,

(02:32):
and many more. Vanessa's latest book, Cues Mastered The Secret
Language of Charismatic Communication was an instant bestseller and I
highly recommend it. Please welcome to On Purpose, Vanessa van Edwards. Vanessa,
it's so great to have you here. I'm looking forward
to this, Yes, waiting for this moment. Me too. And

(02:54):
from the moment you walked in, I was like, this
person is so charismatic, magnetic, says great energy and I
want to start off, Vanessa, just to dive straight in.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
If someone was not only to listen, but to apply
the insights you're about to share today, what would they overcome.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
I'm a recovering awkward person and I have found that
through this work, and that is my mission today with you,
that you can overcome awkwardness, doubt, and most importantly, the
feeling of being underestimated.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
I think that that's really.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
What I'm trying to get at with my work is
if you feel that you have a lot of potential,
or you have this desire to connect, but you don't
know how, and people are underestimating your charisma, your ideas,
your smarts, who you are. My goal is to make
it so you no longer feel underestimated.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Oh I love that that's so strong.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Those are my people.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
That's so strong, and I resonate with it so strongly
because I'm sure, just like you, I meet so many
people who feel they have the next big idea, who
feel that they have something to share, something to give,
something to teach, some to pass on, but they don't
feel confident. They're lacking that feeling of courage. They're lacking

(04:07):
that feeling of I don't know how to present my idea.
I don't know how to share it. And this is
what we're going to do today.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
And the problem is like I also had these ideas,
but I not only didn't have confidence, I felt out
of control. I think this is an aspect of communication
we don't talk about enough. I think the side door
into confidence because we all say I wish I felt
more confident, But the side door is thinking, Okay, I
have an idea, what's the blueprint that I need from conversations,
from charisma to be able to get where I want?

(04:34):
How can I take control of my connections, my relationship,
my communication, so I know if I want to show
up as friendly or as likable or as competent, I
know exactly what to do with my body, my voice,
my words to show.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
Up in that way.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
So for me, the only way I was able to
overcome awkwardness was taking control of the signals I'm sending
and being able to take control of the kinds of
relationships and conversations I had.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
What I really appreciate about what you're saying. You just
named three things you said. If I want to come
across as friendly, likable, and competent. What's really fascinating is
I think most of us don't even know we want
to come across that way.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
This is true. The step one of control is how
do you want people to see you? And here's what's
really important. The cues that you send to others make
people think about you a certain way. But the cues
you send to others also change how others treat you.
So if you want to be treated with more respect,
you have to make sure it starts with you that
you're sending the cues needed to show others how they

(05:30):
should treat you with respect. If you want to be
treated with friendliness or warmth or vulnerability, how do you
signal to others? I want you to be open and
raw and real with me. We can take control of
those signals to tell others here's how I want to
be treated. And so step one is how do you
want people to see you? It's a ill game, okay.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
So in your mind, when people first meet you, what
word do you think they think? Like, what's a word
they use to describe you?

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Ooh, that's so good.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
What do you think it is?

Speaker 1 (05:58):
I would hope it is is warm?

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Warm? Okay.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
So I've asked this to thousands of people and the
words are you know, all over the place. By the way,
a lot of folks have negative words, and that's okay. Like,
for example, my word used to be awkward, right, like
people would say that I knew you know when you
show up. And I'm a social overthinker, so like I
would get in my head about things.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
I would overthink things I knew. I could see in
their face.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
That I was coming across as awkward and I was
creating more awkwardness. So my original word for first impression
was awkward, and that's what got me into this work.
So a lot of the words. I have two kind
of groups of people. I have folks like you who
are like.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
Warm, competent, charismatic, confident. I love it. I love it.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
But a lot of folks and if this is you,
I'm with you, I'm gonna help. It could be quiet,
it could be awkward, it could be scared, nervous. There's
a lot of words like that. Okay, so start there.
Then the question is what do you want people to
think when they first meet you. What's the word that
you wish? Maybe even two or three words. How do
you want to come across? So would yours ideal be warm?

(07:02):
And do you have another one that you wish?

Speaker 1 (07:03):
I'd probably add loving.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Loving, love it.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Okay, so think of three words that you wish to convey.
Now we have to work backwards. So step two is, okay,
how do we convey warmth and competence and loving or confidence?
That's where the real magic happens. And there are ninety
seven cues. I've identified ninety seven keys, ninety seven cues.
The very beginning of my career, I realize that humans
were sending these social signals back and forth. You're nodding,

(07:30):
your hand, gesture, your feet, your voice, power, and I
just missed them all. I have an affliction. I tend
to misinterpret neutral faces as negative. I think we all
a lot of people tell a lot of people. It's
the basis of resting bothered face.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
This is the basis.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
There's actually science behind RBF, and it's that most people
misidentify neutral expressions as negative. And by the way, interesting
thing they found in the research with this was if
you are an angrier person, if you to get angry more,
you see more neutral faces as angry.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Ooh or I didn't even think about this.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
So in a way, the way you see the world
changes the world. Right, Like, if you were an angry
person and you're misinterpreting neutral faces as angry and then
you reply back with anger or offensiveness or defensiveness, you
make them angry.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Absolutely, And so this.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Is like this weird c cycle.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay, so if there's ninety seven different cues, I started
categorizing them because I was like, I don't I'm misinterpreting.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
And I would say to my.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Husband, I think she's mad at me, and he'd be like,
why I go to a party like everyone's mad at me.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
He'd be like, I didn't see that at all.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
And that's when I started to realize, Okay, what are
the actual negative faces? So I discovered, you know, the
research on micro expressions, the seven micro expressions, what we
can talk about and then I started to categorize these
patterns just for me, and then I realized there was
all these other awkward people who also wanted to be
able to read these social signals.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
And so I think that.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
When you've picked your word, starting to make your recipe
of charisma.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, and what I love about this is this is
all how happening before you get to the date, before
you get to the event, before you get to the interview.
This is where it has to start. And I think
so many of us turn up and naturally, by the way,
me included. I think the challenge I have is people
may assume that I'm always confident and have it all together.

(09:18):
If I don't prepare for an event, I can turn
up and feel exactly the same way because I walk
in and I'm rushed there and I'm thinking, gosh, what
am I going to say? Like why am I here again?
And why is that person looking at me with that way?
And were they right?

Speaker 3 (09:30):
Okay, so this is good.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Let's add a step to our exercise, which is I'm
just thinking about this, now, what's your bad day first
impression word?

Speaker 1 (09:39):
My bad day first impression word would be absent, like I'm.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Just like muting.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, Like, I'm just not quite there. I'm probably looking
through someone. I'm probably not listening as well as I
usually do because I'm kind of just I'm lost. I'm
a bit lost and absent.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, Okay, So everyone should think about their first impression word,
their current first impression word, and their ideal why. What
are the triggers that trigger you to be in that
bad space and what are the triggers that make you
feel in that good space. So one of the very
first steps is Okay, whether you're an introvert, an extrovert,
or an ambivert, and there is that sort of in between,
who triggers you to be your best self?

Speaker 3 (10:19):
You know how?

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Like around certain people, you're like, ah, I'm my funniest
I'm my most charismatic. Great, those are the people who
bring out the good first impression. You want to be
around those people as much as possible. Who are the
people who bring out the bad first impression?

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Right?

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Like?

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Who are the people who make you feel the way
I would describe as like tight inside, Like that's how I
would describe it, rigid, Like that's what I do. I
get very rigid when I'm afraid or nervous. Who makes
you feel angry, Who makes you feel rigid, who makes
you feel afraid? Who makes you shut down? You know,
awkwardness dresses up in a lot of different ways. Some people,
their awkwardness is shutting down, right, They mute, they go quiet,

(10:55):
they collapse in on themselves, they take up less.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
Space from body language perspective.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
But other people get bigger, they become dramatic, they name drop,
they talk too loud, they overtalk. Like, that's also a
way that are awkward to stress up. So what are
your triggers that make you do that? The people, but
also the places. Yes, right, Like I love a one
on one conversation, So I'm I was more excited for
this conversation than I would be. Like if you were
to say, Vanessa, come over to my house for a

(11:20):
happy hour.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Which never happens in my house because I'm not coming.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
I can't come, or if I come, I would be
like agonizing the whole time, like a rooftop bar, you know,
loud night club, just like not my space.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Like, I just triggered all the bad stuff in me.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
So I think that like knowing who and what is
going to also set you up for success into getting
to the better taking control, Right, if you can control
the people in the places where you want to show
up your best self, that's like step number one.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
That's the groundwork.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
And I think that that's hard shifting that moving that
forward when you have to start going to places where
you don't know anyone. Right, And there were two areas
I already wanted to focus on with you today. One
was looking at the dating landscape, and we'll start there.
And the second I want to focus on is work. Yeah,
because I feel like those are the two areas where
your skills and your habits and your tools thrive in

(12:11):
a way that you know people are going to change
their lives. We were talking about this idea that let's
say you're at a workout class. Let's say you're at
a social space. Maybe it is a rooftop bar, maybe
it is a club. Yes, you want to signal to
someone to make a move. You want to let them
know that you find them attractive, that you'd like them
to do something. But you want to be subtle. You

(12:32):
don't want to give it away. How do you let
someone know that they should make a move without giving
it away?

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Okay, I'm going to give you news that you're probably
not going to like, but it's so important. It's a
phenomenon called signal amplification bias. What this is, it's very
well studied that we tend to think we are over
obvious with our cues. So if you're in a bar,
they literally studied singles in a like bar nightclub set,

(13:00):
women and men who think they are being obvious with
their flirtation cues. The other person has no idea.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Okay, that's so good.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
They even counted the number of flirtation signals. This was
incredible research. They observed singles mingling, and they counted each
person's flirtatious signals towards other people in the room. They
found in ten minutes, how many signals do you think
it took for a woman to show a man she
was interested? How many in ten minutes? How many signals
did you have to send when it actually worked? When

(13:30):
it actually worked.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Now that you've given me some sort of I'm gonna
go thirty twenty nine, oh okay, cool.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
That's it. But do you know how many signals that is.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Innut A lot of signals that is that is pretty constant.
And if you didn't tell me, I probably would have
guessed three, right, it was only because you gave me
a sense that there was more. I probably would have
said three seven.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
That is what women think is it was needed. I
sent three flirty glances and he just didn't come over.
He's not interested, No, he didn't see him, or he
doubted himself, or he was like, was that a trick
of my eye? It took twenty nine signals in ten
minutes to get approached. So the other person went, oh,
she's interested, just interested. That was before the even the

(14:10):
conversation started. So what are the flirty glances of availability?
And this is what's most important is in the same
group of studies, they found that attractive women, the most
attractive women, who are rated on their attractiveness got approached
less than unattractive women who.

Speaker 3 (14:27):
Didn't signal enough.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Fascinating.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
So if you're an attractive woman and you don't signal enough,
you won't be approached.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Do you have to approach more? Based on how objectively
attractive you are?

Speaker 2 (14:35):
You have to be available more. So what they found
and this is so it's ridiculous that we're rating on attractiveness,
but it helps us understand that something that I think
we use attractiveness as an excuse I'm not pretty enough
or I'm not this enough. No, Actually, some unattractive women
whose signal availability God approached more wow. And so availability
actually makes you more attractive. When you think about your hair,

(14:58):
your outfit, how you look, how you you smell, all
those things are great, but they will not work if
you do not know the body language signals of availability,
and you have to be super clear with them. So
the very first one are flirty glances are yeah, I'm
gonna demo it for you. Okay, So flirty glances are

(15:19):
typically they little gaze patterns.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
Is we sweep the room with our eyes, then we
see someone we like.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
We oh yeah, nice little side glands.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, like very brief.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
It's a look.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
It's a look back but then look back. Yeah, and
it's a side look or a down and up look.
The down and up look works really well because you're
looking up through your lashes.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
That's a very I think Marilyn Monroe.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
So if you want to look at the classic example
of this every good photo of Marilyn Monroe, she has
her chin tilted down and she's looking up through her eyes.
That is a look that we just like we just
like it, that's why we like it. So it's glancing
around the room and then eye contact away, eye contact away,
then it's little smiles.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
So look and little smile.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
And by the way, remember it took twenty nine of these,
so we got to get really comfortable with trying.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
And the nice thing is there's no pressure.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
If he doesn't return the glance, he doesn't reorthin the
glans right, So eye contact smiles. Self touch is also
considered a flirty glance. So like if I play with
my hair or I play with my dress, that's a
way of signaling our hair health. From from a evolutionary perspective,
it's like, look, how healthy I am my healthy long hair.
I think it's one of the reasons why we tend
to like long hair. We'll also when they're flirting, they'll

(16:29):
touch their neck, their lips, or their chin. This actually
releases pheromones. So the reason why some women will touch
their neck or touch their lips is because they're actually
trying to release their scent. And scent is very very important.
It's important in dating, but it's also important in friendships.
For example, it's a little bit off the side of
dating but I just want to explain why smell is
so important. I just read this study and I was like, what.

(16:52):
They had women wear white T shirts with no deodorant,
no nothing, so just their natural smell for twenty four hours.
They took these T shirts and they had other women
smell these T shirts and rate the women on if
they liked the smell. Okay, imagine your opening as the
thought bag and You're smelling study. I would have loved it. Okay,
I would have loved it. Sign me up for the researchers.

(17:13):
I'm there. So they had them smell the T shirts
and they had them rate them on how much they
liked the smell. Then they had all the women interact
in person. They didn't know who's who the smell they
liked the best predicted who they liked the best in person,
so they actually found their people. There is something to it.
So when you're self touching like that, it's because we're

(17:34):
trying to release this natural smell of like I'm going
to probably click with you. That's why if you smell
good and good is subjective, like That's why I think
why sometimes you're like, oh, we're just clicking.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
We like each other's smell.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
So so being available also like releasing pheromone self touch.
And then this one is not from the research, but
I'm gonna really encourage you to try it. I think
the best way to show availability is one word, and
it sounds like this, Hey, just okay, you walk to

(18:08):
the bathroom and you walk to the bar, you walk
by them, Hey, just like that.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
Because look, by the way, this is for both men
and women, okay, because life is too short to not hay, right,
and there's no pressure.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
If you walk by someone in the gym, right and
you're like hey, even if they have their air pods in,
if they like you, they're gonna be like, hey, right.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Does it matter the tone of voice, because you say
it matters Hey, it's not like that's pretty good? Okay,
all right, okay, so I'll do.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
See men men do good with a downward inflection, So
like that down reflection is good. So if it goes good,
the guy is gonna be like hey. If he's not
into it, he's gonna.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Be like hey, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
No problem, right, like cool, Hey, So it's like the
most low pressure way when you're in the grocery store,
when even by the way, if someone has airpots on there,
it's still gonna see you go. They're going to take
out their heir find and they're gonna be like, hey,
So here's the difference, right, So I am using the
lowest end of my natural tone. This is especially important

(19:11):
for women, but everyone. Research finds that we decide how
confident someone is within the first two hundred milliseconds of
hearing them speak. Two hundred milliseconds. That means the most
important word you can say really is hey.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
You've just signaled your confidence. Your confidence, not confidence, it's
specifically confidence. Okay, so what does that mean? We are
listening for relaxation and breath in the vocal cords. So
right now I'm working really hard to use the lowest
end of my natural voice because I know that people
are listening and I want to keep them relaxed. When
I get nervous, I tend to go a little higher
in my vocal tone. I might get a little bit

(19:47):
more vocal fry, and I might sound a little bit
more like this. Now, if I were to do the
entire interview in this tone of voice, it would drive
you crazy.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
It's infectious. We catch it.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
We don't like to be around people or we could
catch their anxiety. We don't want to catster anxiety. They've
even found that we match the voice resonance of the
most important person in the room. So when they tested people,
they found that they un subconsciously their resonance matched whoever's
most important person room their own resonance.

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(21:42):
here's the thing a lot of us when you're attracted
to someone, your heart rate goes up, you start breathing shallower,
and you're about to say it in a like you
go hey, hey, like really that's the reaction because you're
so nervous.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
And this is why we don't have enough cups.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
This is the reason. Is the way were saying, yeah,
h what do we do when you're like, when you're
feeling that like attraction, maybe you've even built up to it.
You've been going to class every day for thirty days
and this guy's turning up three times. You're trying to
send the queue.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yes, okay, so luckily one is. Now that you know it,
it's going to be very easy for you to hear yourself.
Do it so at home if you wouldn't mind trying
this with me. I want you to hear the highest
end of your range versus the lowest end of your range.
Everyone has a natural range, So first, let's start with
the highest. So take a deep breath and say hello
at the top of your breath. Hello, Hello. That's our
natural highest end of our range. I never want you

(22:33):
to sound like that. I never sound like yeah, right,
maybe your dog. I see people go.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Hello, baby, Actually you're right to my niece and nephew.
May they look at me like stuff? Talking to me
like that?

Speaker 3 (22:43):
Babies and dogs, totally fine.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Babies, dogs, that's it, because you're signaling tightness, high anxiety,
and we don't want that. And by the way, this
happens to everyone. We hold our breath as we're answering
the phone. Hello, You've just given away all your confidence. Okay,
so that's the highest. Let's try the lowest. So take
a couple of deep breaths, relax your vocal cords. Relax
your shoulders, relax your jaw, relax your mouth, and then

(23:05):
I want you to say hello on the outbreath.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
It's gonna sound like this, Hello, Hello. That's the lowest
end of your range.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
What happens here is when we take in breath and
we speak on the outbreath, it forces our vocal cords
to relax and it puts us on our lower range.
So here's the difference. Here's how I want you to
say hello. Let's to the phone first. So instead of Hello,
I want you to go Hello. Totally different the second one. Right,
So here's the bad one, Hello, that's too high, versus

(23:36):
on the outbreath.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
Hello.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
It's still me, but I sound totally different. You would
treat me differently based on those two hellos. I started
off by saying, your cues change how people treat you.
If you speak with confidence, people are going to treat
you with more respect, and so it is critical we
speak that lower tone. So when I was like hey,

(24:00):
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Go hey, are I'm so good?

Speaker 3 (24:07):
So a nice low hay for both men and women.
This works? And can we just hey everyone?

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah? Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
Let's just do like.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Life is too short to not hay a person you're like,
I like their vibe. Yeah, right, Like, let's just hey everyone,
and if you see me out on an airport, you
just ab I'll laugh.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, I love. Oh that's good. I like that. I
really like that because I think a lot of people
listening right now they might be thinking, but I want
to be accepted for who I am. What's the difference
between who we are and how we choose to present ourselves?
Because I think people get confused. They go, oh, but
I am that kind of person who's nervous and anxious

(24:47):
and everything, But that's not who they are.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
I don't believe in fake it till you make it.
It's not a concept.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
I've ever Yeah, me neither resonated with.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
And so notice how I didn't say I want you
to be like Elizabeth Holmes and go, hey, I can't
even do it. How did she do it? She was
so like she faked that low tone. No, I wanted
you to find the lowest end of your natural tone.
First is I don't believe and take it to you
make it. Second is, I want you to sound like
your most confident self. So if for you that is, hey, cool,

(25:19):
girl cool. I'm for it, right, like I will. If
that is you and that's how you go, I will
take it. So I want you to feel like you.
But I also want you to find your resonance point.
It's called a maximum resonance point. That's speaking with. This
is for both dating and work. That's speaking with this
part of your voice that is open and full of

(25:41):
power and volume and space. And don't we all want
to operate that way? Like I think everyone is more
themselves when they have space in their bodies, when they're
taking up their space, when they have breath, and that
translates to everything. Yeah, it translates to my face. It
makes my face more open, It makes my job more relaxed,
it makes my shoulders more relaxed. So what I'm kind

(26:01):
of hoping is we're finding that part of you that's
like ooh resonance.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yes, Like that's where presence comes from.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, that's a great answer. And what's really good about
it is also that if that person says hey, back,
you're now not at this crazy level of nervousness and
anxiety where you can't now you're in shock, and now
you don't even have to respond. And then that ruins it.
We were talking about one of my friends who's a
comedian called Jared Freedi as a podcast called You Up,

(26:28):
and there was an episode where he was talking about
sometimes it's hard to spark up a conversation with someone
at a class, and he was saying, it's good to
just go out to someone and say something like tough class, right,
like you know whatever, maybe like something to find some
mutual ground before you hit it off. And I think
even that saying that in this tone could help.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Okay, So I love this tip. So you say hey
and it's like hey, hey, cool, then you want to
use it again. I like a blueprint. I need specific groundwork.
I don't like to guess. So here's your next step
is a context cueue. So a context cue is when
you use a conversation charter. That's something that you both share.
If you don't know someone, you don't know what you share.

(27:09):
So the one thing you can share is the context
you're in.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
So that could be how do you know the host?
If you're at a party? Right, it could be how
do you like the food? How do you like your wine? Oh,
that coffee looks great? Wow, this is a tough class right,
So it's something in context because actually that's a secret
me too moment. So this is the next effect. So
we're fighting and dating signal amplification, bias. More signals are better.

(27:32):
You are not being obvious, right, you think you're being obvious,
you're not. It takes twenty nine signals. You can count
them in your head if you want. Okay, So that's
the first thing we're fighting. Once we've managed that and
we're really clear, the second thing we're trying to meet
is a psychological effect called the similarity attraction effect. What
this is is that we like people who have similar
values and motivations as us. What's important about this is

(27:54):
every time we have a me too moment like oh
we have what we have that, it builds like a
little string between us. Like I literally envision when I'm
in conversation, like we're handing each other threads.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
I call it thread theory, Like we're.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
Handing each other threads, and the more threads that are
back and forth, the more connected we are. Like that
that's the visual I use. So what is the very
first question I said to you when I met you outside?
Was you know, I think we have some friends in common?
Because I knew that that was a thread that we
could be like, yes, we both love those people, and
that made it just really easy. I didn't say like,

(28:26):
how's the weather. I didn't do that, right, So, whatever
you can do to create as many me too moments
as possible. That could be raving about a mutual friend,
that could be raving about how great this class is.
That could be oh, the wine is so delicious or
the wine is terrible, right like the other one. So
all your entire goal in this part of the conversation
is me too moments, and your question should be geared

(28:49):
towards that, because here's where awkwardness happens. You're in a
conversation and you have no goal. You're like kind of
like what do you do? Where are you from? You know,
and it's like these socially scripted dead end conversation starters.
So instead I want your goal to be I want
to them to say me too, or I want to

(29:10):
say too. That's it, and it's very low pressure because
all you're doing and then your questions have intention, right,
Like if everything is on purpose, if everything is intention,
then our questions are searching for similarities. And this is
the last step, and this is for dating, for friendship,
even a little bit for work relationships as well. The
last step is can you find authentic reasons to like them?

(29:33):
And I mean aggressively like them. I think that awkwardness
the reason I was so awkward for so long, as
I was asking the wrong questions and I didn't know
what to listen for. The last the study completely changed
my life, changed the way I interact. I was never
a cool kid. I was never popular, and I believe it.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
That's true. It's true.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
I was like, I was like a triple major in
college because I was just like, what can I do
to distruct myself? Like I ran for student council because
it was the only position that was unopposed anyway, Yeah, it.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
Was really cool.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
So I found this study that looked at the cool
kids in high school and they examined thousands of kids
across a variety of high schools, across variety of grades,
looking for patterns why are some kids more popular than others?

Speaker 3 (30:17):
And the hypothesis was maybe.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
They're more athletic, maybe they're smarter, maybe they're more attractive,
maybe they're more extroverted, maybe they were funnier.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
Right, those were all the things.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, I would think of right, there were popular kids
who were those things. But the only commonality across all
the grades and all the schools was that the most
liked kids had the longest list of people that they liked.
The most liked kids had the longest list of people
that they liked, meaning they weren't going around all day

(30:46):
trying to be funny, trying to be cool. They were
going around trying to like as many people as possible.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
No way. One of the.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Variables was to everyone had to make a list of
kids they liked, and the most popular kids had the
longest lists, meaning they were constantly thinking I like that
about you, I like that about you.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
This was like relief for.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Me because it meant I don't have to show up
as impressive or funny or extroverted or be good at sports,
cause I'm not. All I have to do is aggressively
like people. So if you want to be attractive, if
you want to create bonds friend wise romantic wise, what
I want you to be doing is you're asking these questions,
looking for me toos, and then you're thinking, how can
I like this person? More like, what could I ask?

(31:28):
What could I find out that I can authentically be
like I like you and then saying it like I
cannot tell you my best friendships have started when I
don't play it cool.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
I do not believe in playing it cool. That doesn't work.
I literally am like, I like you, will you be
my friend?

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yea?

Speaker 2 (31:44):
And like I have a six and a half year
old and a two and a half year old daughter,
and I watched them on the playground and it's funny.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
They're they're like this.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
They literally will sit in the sandbox. My daughter was like,
do you like trucks? And the boy was like I
like trucks and she was like I like tr I
was like me too. Moment, good job, Claire. And then
she was like you want to be my friend? And
he was like yeah, that's it. They're friends.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
I was like, this is it. We actually knew how
to do this as kids. It's what we used to
do and we've kind of, you know, over too cool
for it.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
I like that you did that and said that because
I do the same thing. So no, literally it's exactly
the same. Yeah, I know, but like you, that never happened,
and I love that because to me, it's I have
so many friends in La that when I met them
first time, I said, I think we'd be great friends
and i'd love I'd love to see if that's true.
And like now seven years later, whenever we're out and everyone,

(32:39):
how did you to me? And then my friends will
always try and be poliable like oh yeah, we just
met through and I'm like, no, no, no, let me
tell the story. I said that I liked you and
I wanted to be your friend, and I love living
that way because I think it makes life so clear,
It makes life so easy. Everyone knows where everyone's intentions are.
And if someone is too cool for me or doesn't
like that at least I know.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Also like I'm I'm allergic to it. Yeah, like I
don't do well with two cool people. Like if you
can't even show me your liking or you're kind of
wanting to put a wall up, we're not going to
be good friends. Because I love level three conversations, I
like vulnerability, I like oversharing, So that's like a test.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
Also is like I think we would be good friends.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
I like you, and if they're like h, I'm like cool,
Like that's cool, Like I would rather take the shot
than miss it. Yeah, and so I think, like, if
you're listening, I think it's like, let's if you like
someone like show it, search for those me two moments,
and then if you like them, well, first of all,
search for reasons to like them.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Then if you like them, say it.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
That right there is like the best way to try
to find your people.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
That's going to find them.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
The me too goal is of real switch because I
think a lot of us when you approach someone, if
you don't ask about the weather, you usually try and
compliment someone, and that doesn't work. Vanessa, tell me why
compliments don't work.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
We all want to be complimented, but it makes us
feel very uncomfortab right, Like there's this weird compliment economics
where it's like, please compliment me, but don't.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
It's weird, right, And it also it creates.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
An odd hierarchy a little bit where if you're complimenting someone,
it separates you and also you're putting them in the
position of receiving something they might not be ready for.
Especially I believe in if you're going to compliment someone,
compliment them on them on something that you share.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
Yes, right, so be like, oh my gosh, I have
those shoes I love them too, right, are we twinsies?

Speaker 2 (34:28):
I mean, I guess men usually say twinsies, but like like,
well try please try it twins ees. Just like see
how your male friends respond and be like yes. So
I think that if you're going to compliment comment on
a shared similarity, then you can kind of celebrate together.
If you're complimenting someone one way, you're actually putting them

(34:49):
farther away from you, not closer to you.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
That distance in hierarchy makes so much sense, especially when
someone's new. It's different if you know someone. But if
you randomly go up to on someone and go, oh,
I really like the color of that dress, what are
they going to say and like thanks exactly?

Speaker 2 (35:03):
And now it's like, oh, actually, worse, worse if you
were to say, oh, Vanessa, I like the color your dress.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
By the way, I'd be like, I like your color too.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
It's black.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
That's what happens is like you compliment someone on something
and they're uncomfortable.

Speaker 3 (35:19):
So what I do is I'm like, I'm going.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
To comment you back, and I feel so an authentic
right because then I'm like I don't know what to say.
And by the way, if you're going to compliment someone
don't compliment the tall guy I'm being tall, Like, don't
compliment someone on the trade that they didn't even work on. Yes,
like compmiment them on something they worked hard on.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yes, I get about my eyes all the time. That's
that's the compliment. And I always say I didn't end them,
So that's like that's my response because I'm like, I
didn't do anything, like thanks to my parents.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Like also like what do you do? Then you're like,
I'm like your eyes.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Too, and the persons like they're black exactly, And then
you're stuck.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah, you're stuck. And that's what I like about your goal.
I really really liked that advice, and I hope everyone
uses it. We're trying to get a me too, and
you have to have a goal to every conversation. The
gold cannot be. Let me get to the next question,
which is usually where we get stuck, which is like
I'm just going to live in this like jumping relationship
between vices. Yeah yeah, yeah it's and it's like, yeah,

(36:18):
where did you grow up, what do you do for work?
Do you have any siblings?

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Like all these questions that just okay, so let's let's
let's play this out let's go even deeper. So let's
say that someone's doing that to you. Okay, So there's
two sides of a conversation. All my students are high achievers,
very smart, a little awkward. Sometimes those are my people.
So what happens is they work on their people skills.
They're like yeah, VanNess, like, I got it, I got
I got the Contextcuse I got my conversations. I'm available

(36:42):
whether it's in work or at play. And then they're
with someone who's doing that to them. Right, You're with
someone who's like, so, where are you from? You have
a lot of siblings. Okay, So here's how you break
that social script. One is I want you to think
of what are the three questions that you're asked most?
So I have the same questions I'm asked over and
over and in social social settings, and it's usually what

(37:03):
do you do? Where are you from? How did you
get into that line of work? That's a big one
I get.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
So the biggest mistake you can make is you are
bored by those answers and you show it. Oh, I'm
from La. It's like right, It's like, yes, yes, I'm
from La. But it ends the conversation. So I want
you to think of what's a way that you could
answer that question that gives a hook or a story

(37:30):
or it's a funny moment and it is a bridge
to you asking them something else back. How can you
answer those questions that's going to slightly shift or transform
the conversation and makes you more charismatic. So I even think, like,
if someone would ask you how are you, you can
answer it, oh, seven out of ten today, right, or
like better on the inside than the outside, right, like

(37:52):
whatever it is, like just like break the script. So
if you break the script with something purposeful and you're like, okay,
when someone and ask me where I'm from and I
say LA, I know I don't want to talk about La.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
I moved for a reason.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
I live in Austin texts now, and I want to
talk about something else. So what I will often say is,
you know, I'm from LA and about six years ago
I moved to Austin, Texas, and now I'm a cowgirl
and I wear cowo boots and that's like my thing.
And then we get into a whole much more interesting
conversation about cowgirls or Austin whatever they are interested and
then I'm looking for me too.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
Yes, right, Oh, I've been to Austin. I love oh
yeah talking about Austin. Do you like tacos?

Speaker 2 (38:28):
I like tacos too, right, so like it weaves and
so on? Are the three questions you get asked the
most often? And what are three answers that you can
use to get you to more me too moments that
authentically like them? The other thing you can do My
last when I'm like out, I've been trying and trying
to steer is I will play verbal games. And I've
actually never talked about this on a podcast before, but

(38:49):
we're gonna see how this sounds. But I really do this,
which is I love guessing games like I love them.
So if someone's like, how many siblings do you have,
I'll be.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
Like guess good, And.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
I am so curious what they say, because then first
of all, people are like what like They're like surprised
that I have I'm like, guess what do you think
I am I'm.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Going to say because I don't know, I'm going to
guess that you have one sibling. I was gonna three, no, way, five, four?
So I have.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
I have an older brother and three younger sisters and
so you can guess, and so that already makes it
way more playful, right, It's always fun.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Like if someone guesses I'm an only, I'm.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Like, how dare you?

Speaker 3 (39:41):
How dare you?

Speaker 2 (39:42):
But then we talk about only and then I, instead
of asking them back, I say, can I guess yours?
And like sometimes I get it right, And by the way,
that feels really good. Oh gosh, I don't know oldest. No,
I don't don't answer.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
I just ye, sorry, get real the conversation the youngest, youngest?
You mean, are you the youngest?

Speaker 1 (40:04):
I'm the oldest. I have one youngest.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Okay, so I so it's just like fun to play
the game and then it's kind of like guess and
then I can be like, oh I didn't I didn't
peg you. I was thinking oldest or youngest, So you
can kind of have the back and forth. It totally
changes the dynamics of the conversation. And so that's my
last resort is you can play game with I love that.
I also love like if I got this actually from Twitter,

(40:29):
and it totally works. If it says someone says they're
from something, so where are you from?

Speaker 1 (40:34):
I'm from London?

Speaker 3 (40:35):
The windy City. But I always say the windy city.
It's I don't even know.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
I don't know, but you just like you can make
like funny responses back and then people and you have
a bandit. It just broke the script, right, Like being
a little playful and conversation also can create me to
moments because you'll find your person. Yes, right, Like I
try to be funny occasionally, and if you laugh at
my jokes, we're going to be If you don't laugh
at my jokes, it's not going to go well.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
But what I love about that is we often put
so much pressure on people to be interesting and pressure
on ourselves to be interesting, and we think it's about
having this unique conversation start, or this amazing point of
view or this debate that you know. I feel like
we put so much pressure, like we've got to start
giving a ted talk to the person sitting next to us,
and actually that disengages them. I love the guessing game.

(41:27):
I think it applies to any of those three questions
you just share, where do you come from, where do
you live? Now? All of that, and it makes it
so much more fun and you get a sense of
what someone's personality is and I like the interactivity. It's
almost like, I'm sure you feel this way when you're
on stage a lot and you're talking to an audience.
My least favorite thing is someone saying, give a sixty
minute keynote and don't engage the audience in the conversation,

(41:51):
because all of a sudden, it's one way. And I
think that's what we think interesting conversations sound like, where
we can just talk about our lives and come across interesting.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
I also think it's so much pressure to be interesting
because what is interesting is different for different people, and
so if you're trying to be interesting, it's worse than
fake it to you make it. It's what do I
have to do to perform for you? And I don't
think interactions should be a performance. They should be intentional
and you're building towards something, which is do I belong?

Speaker 3 (42:24):
Do I feel accepted by you?

Speaker 2 (42:26):
And this is like a question that I want everyone
to ask themselves, especially when you think about those first
impression words. Sometimes people who trigger you badly it's because
you don't feel safe. I don't mean necessarily physically safe,
I mean emotionally safe, where there's topics that you're a
little scared to bring up, or there's things you walk
on eggshells because you just don't know how that's going
to go. And so the other tests you have as

(42:48):
you're doing this back and forth you're getting to know them,
is do I feel safe to share my real answer?
Do I feel safe to answer something that's not on
script that's like not what everyone else would in answer?

Speaker 3 (43:00):
Do I feel safe to not be interesting? Right?

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Like, if we have this pressure interesting, it's a performance.
If you're like, I'm just going to answer and like
this may or may not like click with you, then
that's the ultimate belonging.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
I think, yeah, yeah, what if what if you're in
one of these conversations and you want it to end?
Oh yeah, well, like you just like I want this
to end. I've been looking around. I'm trying to just
edge towards the door, like side stack. I'm trying to
figure it out. But like, this guy's hitting on me,
this girl's talking to me, this person's just wasting my time.

(43:35):
I'm in this bar, I'm in this gym.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
What I do this is called the art of a
graceful exit, and it is a skill. You have to
learn it because there's going to be times when you're
just not with your person and that's okay, okay, So
here's what you do. It's three steps, okay. Set number
one is you begin to nonverbally signal that you want out. Okay,
so we're we kind of subconsciously pick up on these cues.
So first is you want to point your toes towards

(43:58):
the door. When we're aligned with someone, we typically angle
our toes towards the person. When we're not into someone,
we typically angle our body and our toes outwards. Funny
anecdote here is we also tend to angle our toes
towards the person we have a crush on, or the
most interesting person in the room. So whenever I'm like
at office parties, I can almost always decide the office
crushes because people will subconsciously, even if they're in conversation,

(44:20):
they'll be pouring towards the person they like the most.
So when you move your toes towards the door, it's
just it subtly indicates that your body is angled outwards.
And then I also want you to make less eye
contact right, so that could be an overhead gaze. I
would never normally do this in a good conversation, but
you want to subtly signal to someone I need to
break right, I need to break off. So then you're
overhead gazing. You're going to glance at the door or

(44:41):
the bathroom. That is also another very small signal, Uh,
I'm disengaged.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
So that's one is non verbally signal. Second is you're
going to use verbal cues. The thing that I want
you to do is ask for future plans. When someone
is in a conversation, they're very present. When I would
like to go, I'll be like.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
What's your plan tomorrow? Yes, got me a big plan
for the weekend.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Because wait, this is step in them three. They're gonna
then answer, you know, what is their plan tomorrow?

Speaker 3 (45:04):
What is not for the weekend.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
They'll be like, well, have so much fun tomorrow or
this weekend. It was so great talking to you, and
I'll see you later.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Three steps.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
The final step is just wish them well on those
future plans, thank them for the conversation, give a handshake
or a high five, and then say I'll see you later.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yeah, that's great because you can't always just be like, oh,
I'm just gonna go get dessert, because you might not
be you coming.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
I'll come with you.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
I'll come with you. The nightmare reaction. Yeah, why did
I say that? Oh you're not leaving the part yet.
You just want to talk to someone else.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
And look, I'm radically honest. There are times at parties,
well I will say to someone, you know, it's been
so great speaking to you. I kind of want to
make the rounds or some really cool people here.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Can we chat later?

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (45:46):
Like that's okay too, right if.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
You pop confident with that.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
But the few the three steps works, it's like very seamless.
And then there's one other non verbal queue which I'm
gonna teach you that you sparingly. But nodding makes a
difference with the amount that people speaks. So research shows
that a slow triple nod one, two, three makes the
other person speak sixty seven percent longer.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
Yeah. So if you're in a conversation and you're going m.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
You're literally telling them non verbally, tell me more, just
keep on talking. So if you don't, So, if you're
a good conversation you like what they're saying, please use
a triple nod.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
It's great, Like you do.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
It a lot of the interviewer I love it because
then it makes me keep going. But if you're like,
I don't want this person to keep talking, stop nodding,
stop nodding, because you're subtly encouraging them, And then you
could also try a fast triple nod. So a slow
triple nod shows engagement, a fast triple nod shows I'm done.
It's like this, So here's a good one versus y, Right,

(46:51):
just like a subtle way being like got it, got it,
wrap it up, I got it, I got it. So,
just like subtle, you don't want to offend anyone sixty
seven longer.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Yeah, that makes so much sense. I do in the
podcast all the time. And I've actually been in podcasts
where the interviewer, some interview is a trained not to
nod a tool, and I find it really hard to
talk to someone like me where I have to talk,
and yeah, if I speak to someone who's not nodding
a tool, I find it really challenging.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
It's so this is a really important thing is when
we're talking about cues, there's a cycle. It goes decode,
en code, internalize, So your sending me cues that is
called encoding. So encoding is sending signals to someone else.
You're sending me signals of warmth. Nodding is a warmth queue.
Head tilting is a warmth cue, right, So that's warmth.
So you encode me that signal. I decode it. Ah,

(47:43):
he likes his answer. I internalize it. Keep talking, And
so this cycle goes on and on. If someone is
stoic or mute or they under signal, it kind of
breaks that cycle and it isolates the other person. I
work with a lot of leaders, and there they wonder
why their team doesn't like, oh, put up to them,
or why they're seen as intimidating or cold, and it's

(48:03):
because they are under signaling. They're not sending enough warmth
signals to make other person feel like there's this connection.
The other way that decoding, encoding, internalizing works is negative cues.
So muting is one. It stops the cycle. Positive is
a next where we're like, ah, this is going well.
Negative is the other one. So there was a research
study they wanted to know if how negative cues affect

(48:26):
someone's physiology. So they devise a little experiment where they
had a participant walk into a room of a bunch
of other people and they had someone in the room
a confederate signal a sign of social rejection. So a
social rejection que is an irol, it's a scoff right,
it's like a a lip purse. They had them signal

(48:46):
this towards this unsuspecting participant, and what they found was
once the participant the moment they spotted the social rejection queue,
their own field of vision increased, their pupils dilated. What
happens when when our pupils dilate is we can take
more of our environment, Like are literally their field of
vision increased? Why if we see a Q of social rejection,
our brain is like, oh is anyone else signaling social rejection?

(49:09):
What did I do wrong? And where's my escape route?
Meaning that if we spot a negative queue, it changes
our body. Yes, So if you're in an interview or
on a date and you're like, I don't I don't
some I don't feel great about this, listen to that
because that is your body language reading part of your
mind that picked up on a negative queue that your

(49:30):
brain doesn't like. It could have been a subtle Q
social rejection. It could have been a vocal cue chaine
that you didn't notice. It could be a negative facial
expression or gesture. So, for example, in that study they
were doing social rejection cues, but they even found if
someone flashes a fear micro expression at you, so they
widen the whites of their eyes, and like that, we
catch the fear like our own amygdala begins to fire.

(49:52):
And so if you feel uneasy with someone, listen to it,
because it means that your body has picked up on
some thing that it did not like that was a threat,
and you should dig deeper into that.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
So let's say you were at the gym, you said hey,
they said hey, back. You ended up going on a
couple of dates. Right, You've graduated from the gym to
a restaurant or a coffee shop or whatever, and now
you're on a date with that person and you're trying
to figure out whether they're lying or telling the truth.
You're trying to figure out whether you feel good around

(50:26):
them or not, and you don't really figure that out
until third or fourth day. Anyway, you don't really know enough.
You're not getting enough cues, going back to your point,
especially if you're spending time with people in a very
limited environment. So if you're seeing someone in a coffee shop,
or a restaurant or going to the movies or whatever
it may be. You're seeing them for one and a

(50:47):
half hours, two hours, and it's controlled. You started to
spend more time with them. What are the negative cues
we miss because we're infatuated or attracted to someone.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
The research shows that it takes two hundred hours to
become close friends with someone, so a soulmate or a partner,
it's even more. That's a lot of hours, and we
tend to make very big decisions about a relationship in
the first six hours.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Not enough.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
And so what you said was really important is first,
is I want you to get off script. Coffee shops, restaurants,
those are very controlled environments. They've probably done those dates
a lot. I want you to get off script. I
want you to do what I call the car challenge,
which is I want you to drive somewhere an hour
away with them.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Oh wow, it's a lot of trust.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Well, so you've had three or four dates, right, and
you're like to be say, I feel safe. Right, So,
but you're like, is this clicking?

Speaker 3 (51:39):
Are we clicking?

Speaker 2 (51:40):
You might just be on script. It might be like
just it it's two vanilla. It's to the same or
maybe you are picking up on something. So the road
trip challenge is when you pick somewhere an hour away
that's a different activity. It could be hiking, it could
be pick a ball, could be art class, it could
be a wine tasting, anything that's not restaurant or coffee shop,
normal things. You have an hour there about it our
activity to our activity an hour back. You're going to

(52:02):
find out in that setting how they drive or how
they listen to you, how they stop, stop and get gas,
stop and pick up some snacks. Like we're trying to
see them in a lot of different environments. How do
they treat people, how do they treat your space? You
want to see them off script, that's the very first thing.
Then you're going to be looking for what I call
cues of inauthenticity. Cues of inauthenticity is when you're verbal

(52:25):
does not match your nonverbal And this is what liars do.
So we do a lot of light detection sides of
people because I'm fascinated by what are the cues that
humans do when they're not telling the truth. And all
of the light detection cues are when there's incongruence, it
means someone is saying something but they're not showing it.
So nodding is a good example of this. So we've
found we have a little game we play with people
in our lab where we ask them two truths and

(52:46):
a lie. Share two truths about yourself on one lie.
Sometimes people will say yes but shake their head no,
or say no but shake their head yes. That's an incongruence,
and liars will often do this. So you'll ask, you know,
so what do you think of the new girl? You know,
she's she's great, And they're shaking their head no, but

(53:08):
they're saying yes. There's a hesitation there, but we don't
even notice it. But once you start to look out
for it, you'll start to see these incongruents.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like, I do that,
see now the people do it like you know, you
just yeah, wow.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
And also could be doubt, right, like someone someone could
not know if they like the girl or not, so
they're kind of yeah, kind of sort of right by
the way India, Bulgaria and Pakistan, nodding is a little
bit different, very different for sure, right, So I just
like to make that note. So looking for incongruits, they're
saying I'm happy, but they're not showing happy like a

(53:45):
fake smile, for example, is a real smile when we
reach all the way up into these upper cheek muscles.
So when I'm smiling all the way, I get these
crows feet.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
Right.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
If someone says to you, oh, I'm so happy for you,
dead on the top right, too much botox, either one.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
That's getting harder. It's making my job harder. It's making
my job harder that you.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Know, oh, there's not real happiness here. And this happens
a lot in dating when you'll say your truth, you'll
say your passion or your value or your love, and
they'll go, oh, that's nice, and they're giving you a
fake smile. They're saying that's verbally okay, and your brain goes, uh,
that's oftentimes your body has picked up on ooh they

(54:25):
said it was good, but I didn't feel it was good.
So you're looking for incongruent cues or clues that someone
is not stating what they actually feel. And when you're
off script, you see way more of them. Yeah, you
see way way more of them. I also think there's
some cues that we can't read. For example, we catch
fear through smell. So I mentioned the smell before. This
is a study that completely blew my mind. They brought

(54:48):
people into their lab. They sold them up into different groups.
They had them wear sweatsuits like suits that caught their sweat.
The first group had to run on the treadmill, the
second group skydiveage for the first time. They had two
collections of sweat. They had treadmill sweat and fear sweat.
Then they had unsuspecting participants in an fMRI machine smell
these two sweat samples. I had no idea if they

(55:09):
were smelling gross, right, I hope they paid them well.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
So gross.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
People who smelled the fear sweat caught the fear. They
smelled this random thing, and their own amygdala began to
light up. They began to feel afraid. So sometimes when
you're with someone and you're like, I just feel so uneasy,
there's also this unreadable aspect. But I want you to
listen to it. Because our brains are so smart. They

(55:33):
are working to protect us. And so if you you're
like I feel off, that's your alarm belts. It's probably
your amygdala signaling something does not feel right here.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
Gosh I cannot believe you can tell that much from
sense smell.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Oh, it's coming, that's the studies are coming. I cannot
wait for these old factory last.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
Now that's what anyone's gonna do. I'm into it.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
I'm into it, like if someone runs by me, I'm like,
I want to smell.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
I want to smell. I think it's important.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Yeah, but how much obviously, how much does how much
do you perfumes help people live?

Speaker 2 (56:03):
So all these studies are based on natural body sense.
In these studies, they make them more plain white T shirt.
They don't let them more to good or anything like that,
so it's natural smell. I actually think that sometimes too
much coliner perfume is like masking. Like I don't know,
if you've ever been with someone we were like, whoa,
it's too much.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
I don't like it.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
I think in dating, actually you should underscent, like let
your natural scentse.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Yeah. It's really funny because yeah, yeah, my wife's Stepani
into like natural essential oils. She won't really use any
of and I'm happy with that. But then I have
one cologne that I love that she hates but everyone
else in the world loves. But she likes my natural scent,
but she doesn't want me to. Yeah, it's an interesting one,
but everywhere else ago ever friend loves it. So I'm like,

(56:45):
I'm gonna keep sprying this.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
My gosh, you're like white for other people's Sorry.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
Yeah, my wife loves me already. But you know what's
really interesting about that is I think sometimes we all
know that. I know that there's a big difference between
what you're sharing and teaching and people pleasing. There's a
big difference. But to the untrained eye, it's a fine
line where people are now trying to get a reaction,

(57:14):
and therefore they're starting to say things that they may
not mean, which is not what you're suggesting at all.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
I also think, like I look at people pleasing as
our deep desire to be liked. It is so safe
for us to be liked, and so when I look
at the research, so research from Prince University found that
as humans, we are trying to answer two basic questions
about other human beings. Can I trust you? And can

(57:42):
I rely on you? We are constantly trying to assess
people's warmth and competence. Warmth and competence makes up eighty
two percent of our judgments of people eighty two percent,
and so warmth is actually we're talking about here in
that most people have an imbalance of warmth and competence.
We're very high and warmth maybe not as high in comptence,
or we're signaling a lot of warmth but not signaling

(58:02):
enough competence. Highly warm folks people who are off the
charts in warmth. Their primary desire is to be liked.
Highly competent folks. This is a lot of my students.
They want to be right. So a highly competent person,
they're very at work, they want to be on agenda.
They want to get it right. You know you're in

(58:23):
a relationship with a highly competent person if they constantly
google fact check you right. They're less concerned about you
liking them, but they just want to make sure they
get the facts right. A highly warm person wants you
to like them, which means they often sacrifice their credibility
to be liked. That is actually what people pleasing is.
In my opinion, I think people pleasing is someone who goes,

(58:43):
I so want to be liked that I'm willing to
throw my competence out the window just so that you
like me. They're sacrificing the need to be liked for
their need to be respected. I say to people pleasers
what true communication is is showcasing both be both liked
and respected. You can be both friendly and credible. You

(59:05):
can be assertive and also be nice. One of my
most popular videos is a Nice Person's Guy to be
assertive because you don't have to sacrifice one for the other.
And so for my people pleaser is what I would
say is your goal, sure is to be liked, but
it's also to make sure that people respect who you
are and your values. So if you're having conversations with
me two moments, what you're actually doing.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
Is do you value that? Do I value that? Great,
we both value it.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
When it becomes inauthentic, when I think we get into
even like manipulation, is I don't like that, and I'm
going to pretend I do. Yeah, Right, when someone has
a fake me too moment, like I was just watching
an episode of The Kardashians and they were interviewing someone
in our job interview this is the biggest problem in
job interviews. And they ask him do you use quick books?

(59:53):
And he was like yeah, and they said, what do
you use quick books? For and he was like quick booking,
like he did not know, yeah quick, And that was
inauthentic because he wanted to be liked. He wanted to
say he had it. He should have just said no,
I haven't met I'm a fast learner.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
When I think people pleasers get into trouble is they
pretend they like something that they don't, and that is manipulative,
but also it doesn't serve you or them.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Yeah, and we do it, and people do it to us, right,
like if we're all honest, like everyone kind of does it.
Someone may overtly do on a date, especially especially in
the beginning, yes, and then you realize afterwards that they
didn't really know what that was or loved that type
of food.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Or you accidentally have lied yes, and they pick up
on your line.

Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
Yeah right, So you're like I love cats. I love them.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
Now I'm allergic to cats, but I'm like, I just
love a cat, and the other person's like ooh, and
they got this signal in their body that was like
I don't I don't know about this person, but actually
it was because you were just trying to be likable
and I would much rather you say, you know what,
I love.

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
The idea of cats too.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Yeah, but I'm allergic, right, And then everyone laughs and
it's okay, right, And if that's a deal breaker for them,
wouldn't you rather know, Like in dating especially, I would
rather you create allergies for the person.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
So my approach to dating.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
I have a couple of single friends is I'm like,
don't be liked by everyone. Don't have a profile or
go on a first date and try to be the
most liked person. In fact, if you have things that
really matter to you, share them up front. I had
a friend who was trying to date and I was
having a lot of trouble and I'm like, what are
you putting in your profile about you? And it was

(01:01:29):
the most vague generic, like I love beaches.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
It's like everybody likes a bach, Like everybody likes that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
She had all the very and I said, get really specific,
you know, like you love beaches, but what do you hate?

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
Yeah, she's like I hate camping?

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Like say it, Like, why even go on a date
with a guy who loves camping?

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
That's not going to be you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
And so I think that if you don't like something,
if you're looking for me two moments and a not
me too moment comes up. What an opportunity, Yes, you
have an opportunity to be super authentic and be maybe
a little bit funny and still accept them for who
they are, but realize, okay, we're not gonna drive on that.
If that's a deal breaker for you, wouldn't you rather
know it?

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Yeah? And it starts a great conversation too. I think
that's the point that you think you're gonna suddenly take
away the energy from a conversation, But if you have
an interesting point of view, you have a different direction
to take it. It can be great.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Some of my closest friends we tease each other about
our biggest differences, right like that becomes a beautiful friendship too.
So I think that's where people pleasers get in trouble
and they feel bad about themselves because then what happens
at the end, they feel unliked and like nothing's worse
than feeling unlovable or unlikable.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Totally. I want to go into the part you mentioned
their manipulation because I think people who are charismatic and
narcissists often have quite similar traits, or at least today
we talk about them in that way and it's hard
because some people just have that power and control and

(01:02:51):
feel like they're almost moving everyone else around like their pawns.
And often it can be quite magnetic. We can be
quite drawn to it at first because it feels, yeah,
it feels like there's awe in reverence and there's this
feeling of wow, you blow me away and you have
so much magnetic energy, only to realize it was manipulation

(01:03:12):
and narcissm. How do we tell the difference between charisma
and narcissism.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
This is why I like the car test is typically
narcissess have a pattern. Narciss blow you away with their charisma.
At first, you are just in awe. They know how
to signal warmth and competence. They're finding me to a
moment you're like, wow, I'm clicking. And their confidence is contagious.
We love to be around highly confident people, which often
narcists are very confident. So in that first hour two

(01:03:39):
three hours we're blown away. Then typically they go one
of two ways. The first way is narcissis if they
don't get what they want even a little bit, they
go into victim mode. So there's a misunderstanding about narcissis,
which is that they're always confident. When a narciss doesn't
get what they want or doesn't get what they feel
they deserve, and listen for that word with narciss I

(01:04:01):
don't deserve this kind of treatment. I deserve something better,
I'm worth more. Be very aware of those words. If
they don't feel like they get what they deserve it,
or they're not getting what they're worth, they become victims.
Listen for that victim language because narcissists will sometimes be
very charismatic, but they're playing the victim card, and the

(01:04:21):
victim card is really dangerous because then it's everyone else's
fault and then all of a sudden, you're enabling it.
You're like, well, I have to protect you. You're so charismatic.
And that's how they are manipulative with people, is they
play the victim card and you want to protect them.
So be very careful of that dynamic, because I think
that we often are like.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
Well, she's not a narcissist, she's suffering, she needs my help.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
That is often actually a narcissist is they're playing the
victim because they want your help and that makes them
feel good. That's one pattern. The second pattern is that
narciss can be high conflict people. A high conflict person
is they're very charismatic and they blow you away with
their charisma, but they create all these little disagreements fights,

(01:05:02):
They create conflict around them, and they step and they
back up and they go, I don't know, I don't
know how that happened. But they're constantly stirring or stoking conflict.
Watch out for that. Yeah, that's the other reason why
those car trips, getting out of restaurants and coffee shops
is it's very easy to not have conflict in those
very controlled settings. But if someone cuts you off on
the road, or someone short changes you, or someone's late,

(01:05:25):
you get to see, oh wow, they play victim or
they're creating conflict where there doesn't really need to be conflicts.
And then when they're brainstorming in the car, because there's
something that happens when you're next to someone, I think
they verbalize differently. Like typically women like to diead have
conversation like this face to face. Men sometimes like to
have conversations side by side. It's why they like talking

(01:05:48):
it at a bar because they're side by side. They
like talking on a walk or a hike. They like
talking in a car. So sometimes if you're next to
someone and they're just driving, or you're driving and they're listening,
they'll say things they wouldn't normally say in a in
a face to faced eye ad and you might hear, oh,
that's interesting those patterns. I didn't know that you felt
that way about that thing. And so you want to

(01:06:08):
make sure that you're looking for those secret patterns of manipulators,
not just the obvious ones.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Yeah, that I mean that what you just said there
about the way we sit and speak to people. It's
a lot more easy to be open with someone if
you're not staring eye to eye, especially for men. I
assume yes, and there's a sense of yeah, there's a
sense of we're kind of moving in the same direction
rather than against each other. That kicks in. I think

(01:06:33):
there was this there was a story about how Steve
Jobs always used to do walking meetings, like, yes, you
always wanted to walk side by side with people.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Yes, so I like with friends, I or even if
business friends come into town, I always ask for a
walk and talk always, and I never say let's get coffee.
I'm always like, let's get tacos. Yes, like just to
like break it up, break the script a little bit.
And I do find there's something about walking and movement
that also you have more breath, you're looking around. I
have a secret feeling that when I walk and talk

(01:07:01):
with someone, they're more creative.

Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
Yeah, they're like more open.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Minded, Like they go places that we could never have gotten.
I swear we could have never gotten over a coffee.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think the big thing I'm
taking away is this off script idea. Yeah, it's just
breaking the script. It's interrupting the pattern. Yeah, because we're
all so caught up in our patterns. And by the way,
that makes you boring as well, it makes you less interesting.
Just as you said earlier, if you've being asked the
same three questions, it's hard to answer them in an

(01:07:31):
interesting way. It's hard to make how many siblings you
have an interesting conversation on the thirty seventh time over coffee, But.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):
When they're guessing, it's always interesting exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
And that's what I love. How you've interrupted the pattern,
whether that's through the questions you ask, whether that's through gamification,
whether it's through changing the path the way you're connecting.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
And also let's get to the chemistry of this. When
you give an exciting answer or a different answer, you
are creating dopamine.

Speaker 3 (01:07:58):
Now don't mean there's a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
In our bodies, but in conversation, dopamine is the chemical
of motivation and excitement. So if I asked you a
question or answered a question in a different way, I
highlighted a new neural pathway, my brain went ooh, something new.
And that dopamine does a couple of things. One, it
gets you excited. It makes you feel more positive. Two

(01:08:20):
it doctor John and Madina found that dopamine makes you
more memorable. So if you're in conversation and someone's gone
on fifty first dates, or like you're in a business meeting.
This especially in business, I say to people, create dopamine
in the boardroom. You've got to make your presentation to
stand out. You've got to create dopamine in an interview.
If you're pitching work with a lot of entrepreneurs, you've
got to create dopamine in those investors. Because dopamine is

(01:08:42):
what makes the brain go, oh, this person gave me pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
I want to remember them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
When you trigger dopamine people are more likely to remember
your name, what you talked about, and what you care about.
So if you want to be more memorable, the best
thing you can do is try to create excitement moments
for them, both of you. Me two moments are typically excitement.
That's the secret motivation about why I want you to
have me two moments. And then also sharing stories. I
kind of have like a story toolbox. I like keep

(01:09:08):
all my favorite stories and a little note on my
phone because I just like telling them, you know, And
so like start collecting or cataloging stories because those are
gifts for people. You tell a good story, someone's like
ah yeah, like they like love it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
And then lastly is juice excitement.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
So when we talk about conversation starters, I have a
couple favorites. So if you're going to stop asking what
do you do? Where are you from? I love context cues.
The other thing you can do with people you already know,
especially at work, is ask working on anything exciting these days? So,
like I had this problem where I would see people
who I kind of knew, like friends of friends or

(01:09:43):
like family members I don't see all the time, and
I'd be.

Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
Like, how's life? Like what do you do?

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
So now I always ask working on anything exciting these days?
That is a dopamine gift for their brain, because in
their brain then they have to go, oh, you broke
their script exciting, exciting, exciting.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
They're literally searching their brain for something exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
When they find it, they go oh, yeah, you know
actually and they tell you, so you're actually like juicing dope. Mean,
you're borrowing it from other area of their life. And
by the way, if they say no, what a great
opportunity for vulnerability. Like I've asked it maybe one out
of every ten times, I'll say working on anyth exciting
or have anything exciting coming up?

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
And they'll be like.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
No, yeah, and I'll be like, wow, what's going on?
Tell me what's actually happening in your life? And we
have skipped How are you busy?

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
Good?

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
If you ask someone, how are you there going to
be busy?

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Good? Good?

Speaker 3 (01:10:36):
Busy? How about you?

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
And so I'd rather like get past that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
And so asking that question is an unlocked So keep
that one in your back body is my favorite.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
You literally read my mind. I was about to shift
to work, so you already went ahead of it, which
is great. So I'm really glad that you gave the
alternative because I've had a lot of people that I've
asked that question too lately, and they actually focus so
much pressure because I think we're living at this time
now where everyone's doing something so big, which is what
it looks like. And so then when you ask someone that,

(01:11:06):
they're scared that they don't have something big to say,
and so they either shrink and they actually get scared
of that conversation that goes. I don't really want to
talk about that. I get a lot of that sometimes,
or someone are like, oh, that's a lot of pressure. Exciting. Yeah,
I'm just trying to get by. Like that happens. And
it's interesting that even though it's such a better question

(01:11:27):
than what do you do? How's life? How's it going,
it can create some friction, and so I really like
talking about it when it doesn't go your way.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
So I just want to acknowledge it takes courage to
break scripts. Yeah, I know scripts are comfortable, Like I
know that the reason why we're like how are you good?
Is because it's safe, And so I want you to
just acknowledge yourself if you're thinking about asking these questions
like it does take some social courage, but it's worth it.

(01:11:55):
And so yeah, we got to harness, like, Okay, it
might be uncomfortable. You might someone might not have a
good answer to that, or a good answer. I even
say a good answer. They might have an exciting answer.
They might be more vulnerable, but any answer is an
opportunity for connection. Whatever they say, at least it's not
a social script and your other options, so you can
accept it with vulnerability. Oh my gosh, tell me what

(01:12:15):
has it been hard? What's going on? Or you could
have your own answer. So I've asked someone that question,
they're like and they kind of are thinking about it,
and I go, well, while you're thinking about it, here's
what's exciting with me.

Speaker 3 (01:12:27):
And then I take the ball.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
That's so conversation is like soccer, right, we're passing this
ball back and forth?

Speaker 3 (01:12:32):
Or basketball. I don't really play sports. What's a sport
you like? Passing the rugby?

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
I don't know, so, like, like you pass the ball
back and forth, but in basketball you're supposed to rible, right,
So like I shouldn't do sports metaphors.

Speaker 3 (01:12:44):
I really shouldn't. I don't know anything about sports.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
The closest Okay, it's gonna be passed.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
The basketball and back and forth when I ask doing
anything exciting.

Speaker 3 (01:12:53):
Recently, I passed.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
The ball to you and then you're like holding the
ball and you're like, if you can't think of it,
take the ball back, right, just take it back from them.
So they're like okay, and they can listen, they can think,
and that also works really well.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
Yeah, and any question I always say to be any
question you are going to ask someone else, make sure
you know the answer to you totally right, because I
think so often we ask a question and they'll be like,
well what about you, You're like and you're like, uh,
you know, and so be ready to answer.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
I also like, I just want to make like a
push here if someone's willing to be brave, which is
we are more interesting and exciting when we do exciting,
interesting things. This means getting off social media, This means
not watching the show everyone else is watching. This means
getting up and trying different things. And so I also
like a little side like just like I just want
to like share what the world is like. May we

(01:13:41):
all be always working on something a little exciting or
a little interesting for ourselves. And if the side benefit
is we have great conversations. Great when you become known
for asking these questions, you also inspire others to do
something a little bit courageous. And so, for example, I
have a friend that always always, whenever we get together,
he always asks what are you learning? And the first

(01:14:02):
time he asked me that question, I was like, I
was like, I'm learning to survive with my kids. But
now I know he's going to ask you that question.
You know what, I'll be darned. I learned something every
time before I see him. Yeah, like I will go
find something to learn. And you know what, that makes
me better? Yes, Like he had the courage to ask
me that question for the first time and me not

(01:14:24):
have a good answer, and he rescued me.

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
He talked about what he was learning.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
But now I am better for that question because I
want to learn something every time I see him. And
speaking of work, I noticed, so my team is all
over the world. Yeah, he signed the people team. We're
all over the world. And I notice that we have
a team call virtually on Tuesdays. I noticed that like
the first five minutes of our call was like this,
like kind of small talk, like a little bit negative,

(01:14:51):
kind of awkward, and so I thought, you know what,
We're going to have a new routine that the moment
we get on the call, we all share tell me
something good. And so our team meeting always to tell
me to be able. We go around and everyone shares
something good, something small, something big, And not only does
it make our team call so much more interesting because
I learn the most interesting things about my team, but
also one of my team members told me that Monday

(01:15:12):
is her do something good day because she wants to
have something good to share in the meeting.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
So like, be the person known for it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
Like do an icebreaker and your team meetings, I said,
on an icebreaker every Monday my newsletter. Every Monday, I
have a work appropriate, somewhat exciting, kind of interesting icebreaker
that's a gift to you. So like, be the person
known for bringing those icebreakers. And people want my grumble
and might well their eyes, but you know what, secretly
they like it. Yeah, of course they like it. And
if they know they're not your person, yea.

Speaker 1 (01:15:37):
What was this? Do you know what? You give me
some of the cues?

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Yeah, So like I always try to think of something
that's like breaking a script in a little interesting So
like I think that this week was are you an introvert,
ambrovert or extrovert? Got it very helpful, by the way,
Like you should know in your friend group and your
work team who is an introvert, extrovert or ambrovert because
introverts get energy from being alone, and especially at.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
Work, they are are more creative alone.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
So the worst thing you can do in an introvert
is have a brainstorm meeting where you don't tell them
what you're brainstorming. So you bring them into the room
and you're like, okay, guys, let's brainstorm all the big
ideas for next year.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
And they're like they're trying to think in their head.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
If you would just give them a little warning beforehand,
they would come very prepared. So you should know who
needs that warning time. Extroverts get energy from being with people.
Now at work, how this shows up is if an
extrovert has a good day, they want to celebrate with people,
They want to hop on a call, they want to
pop by your office, they want to chitchat your ear off.
Good to know if they have a bad day, they

(01:16:36):
also want to call you to chat or stop by
your office, And so you need to know who's their person.
It shouldn't be an introvert. And so this is like
pair the extroverts together, right, Like I have a wonderful
sales team and they are my extroverts.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
And I'm no an extrovert. I'm an ambrovert.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
And so they have a slack channel that I don't
even know how to logging to slack, so I can
I cannot slack. I don't know if it's a verb
or it's a noun, but I can't do it. But
they love it and they're all extroverts together, and so
I'm like, oh, be extroverts by salespeople.

Speaker 3 (01:17:04):
Yes, so you should be very purposeful.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
So that question, and what my readers have told me
is it's sparking these conversations of like how can I
serve you? Yes, Like you're an introvert. So if you're
having a bad day, do you on space?

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
Like introverts? If you give them bad news and then
you're like any questions.

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
I want to talk it through, They're like no, So
the best thing is like give them the bad news
and be like like why don't you take a day
or two? Will regroup on Thursday. So like just the
way that we communicate. If we just talk about it,
we're honoring everyone, We're serving everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
I've always struggled with that because everyone in my life
thinks I'm an extrovert.

Speaker 3 (01:17:38):
I know, yeah, but I but I.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
Get energy when I'm alone. I work on my own.
I don't like working groups and brainstorms and not worth.
I have to dive deep on my own. I like
dealing with problems on my own.

Speaker 3 (01:17:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
So, but I'm not an introvert. I'm an ambivot Yeah.
Why what's the difference.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
Okay, so eighty percent of people are ambroverts, so it's
actually most people. Very few people are true introversion to extroverts.
We don't talk about ambiversion enough. Ambiversion is a superpower.
Ambiversion means that around the right people you get energy,
and around the wrong people you lose energy. I'm in yeah,
and around the right situations you get energy. Okay, So

(01:18:16):
if you're an ambivert, it also means averts are able
to dial up. This is why oftentimes ammaverts are mistaken
as like outgoing introverts or like social introverts, which is
you can dial right, like you can dial for two hours,
but like if I go to a happy hour, and.

Speaker 3 (01:18:30):
People always like, what are you talking about? Awkward?

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
They don't know that I spent two hours flat on
my back in the hotel room.

Speaker 3 (01:18:37):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:18:37):
Like, they don't see the recharge process. Because ammaverts have
this power, we can dial up and we can mirror
and match. Ammaverts are usually highly empathetic. We are chameleons.
We are social chameleons. So ambaverts have this amazing skill
where they can dial up to match an extrovert energy.
They can be the life of the party if they
want to, but they also can have these beautiful, quiet

(01:18:57):
introvert conversations. But they need a lot of recharge time
in between. And so I say it's a superpower and
you just know how to what charges your social battery
more or less. I will say for ambroverts, our biggest
struggle is ambivalence. Extroverts can like everyone, They can find
something good about everyone. Even with a person who ish,

(01:19:19):
they can still get energy because they are fun.

Speaker 1 (01:19:22):
I've got friends like that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
I have a friend who is dating right now and
she always says, you know, I never know on a
date if if we're having fun or I'm just fun.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
I have a friend that I say, I'm like, you
could have dated or married anyone. Yes, because you'll just
for Madeline love. It'll make it good. You'll make any sense.

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
An extrovert struggle with this. She really struggles.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
She does like I don't know which one it is.
So that's extrovert. Ambroverts and introverts know who their toxic
people are. They are like if I'm not a heck,
yes I'm not going. But ambiverts, we tend to be
more people pleasing, where we'll be like do I like
that person?

Speaker 3 (01:20:03):
Do they like me?

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
We often have people on our calendar where we look
at it and we're like, we tend to have friends
out of habit. Yeah, like they've just been friends for
like a long time, and we like default the friendship,
but actually the friendship we're not like getting a lot
of energy. We're not giving or getting a lot of energy.
So it's really important for ambroverts, if this is you listening,

(01:20:25):
don't be ambivalent about your relationships. Ambivalent relationships actually take
way more out of you than toxic relationships. When you
look at your calendar and you see precious social time
being given to someone who's like meh, you come back
a little drained, you come back a little more tired.
It makes you not believe in relationship. Yeah, And so
I would rather you feel heck yes about someone than ambivalent.

(01:20:46):
And that's a curse of ambiverts. The only curse of
our kryptonite to our superpower is we can sometimes let
a relationship go that really shouldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
Be as and you allow for it to continue, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:57):
Because you don't know how to stop it and you
don't want to hurt their feeling. Yeah, And you wouldn't
know how to have a friendship breakup anyway. And you
also I think that sometimes amberverts aren't sure what's fun.
It's like the weird. I don't know if this is me,
Like I'm I don't know if this is just a
woman thing or not. I don't know if you have this.
Sometimes I do things and I'm like, am I having fun?
I don't know if it's like my age or but

(01:21:18):
I will do things that I've done before and I wonder, like,
is this fun? Was Netflix at home better? I don't know.
I think it's an Ambivert thing. That's something that I've
been sort of wrestling with of Like, sometimes I don't
even know what fun is.

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
Yeah, no, No, I want to react to There's two
thoughts that came to mind to the first part you
talked about. I always like to remind people that there's
two ways of growing in a friendship. There's growing together
and there's growing apart. To notice how they both say
growing right. But when we're growing apart, we think we
lost something or we think it ended, or we think

(01:21:54):
we failed, and it's like, no, that was growth too,
and there was growing together. But we think of you
growing together, then it's going right. And if you're growing apart,
it's going wrong and it's like, no, there's growth. And
so I always like to remind myself that. But to
your other point, I think it's because time has become
more valuable and our self awareness has risen at the

(01:22:16):
same time as we value time. So I'm the same.
I now find it much more frustrating to watch a
bad show in the evening and feel like I wasted
three hours of my evening than I ever did before.
So I don't know if it's an umbivert thing or
a person or an age thing, or I just know
that I'm like like me and my wife went back

(01:22:37):
and forth on that. A couple of years ago, I
was just like, I'm not getting anything out of this.
If we want to do something together, I want to
do something that helps us connect and go deep. Or
I'd rather go read and work, to be honest, because
I'd get so much more out of that than i
would have sitting here and watching nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
Yes, yess, it's a great show obviously, of course, and
that's magic. And so I think that, like I'm having
a personal struggle with this right now where I have
some beautiful friendships, but sometimes I'm having conversation and I'm
wondering if we're getting anywhere. Yeah, which is I feel bad.
I'm like I don't want to be productive in a friendship,
but like I want to like like figure each other out,

(01:23:17):
or like let's be laughing or I and so sometimes
I'm like, where are we going? Yes, And I don't
know what that is. But it's been a little bit
of a challenge. And I'm also a working mom, and
so I think sometimes I.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
There's like less me two moments.

Speaker 2 (01:23:33):
Yes, sometimes unless you're also a working mom. And then
I feel lonely, So like I think this is a
work in progress.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
No, that's really interesting because I think it's for people
who've optimized all areas of their life. Me. Yes, there's
also a sign of I'm looking for optimization. But the
way you just explained it, which I love, is what
we're ultimately doing is looking for new states of belonging. Yeah.
So what I was saying to one of my friends
the other I said, my oldest friends in London will

(01:24:03):
always be my best friends. There is never going to
be someone who knows me that deeply, intimately or as long. Yeah,
but I need a new set of friends that have
similar lives to me today because I have different me
toos now, using your language, I have different me twos
with them that I can't have with my old friends.
And so it's not a replacement or a substitute, but

(01:24:25):
it is finding people that I feel. We both have
podcasts and we can talk about all the challenges that
come with the podcast week. We both travel the world
too much and you know whatever, and I need to
have someone that I can vent about those things and
talk about those things.

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
Yes, so thin that's like the challenge of modern friendship.
I also think it's the challenge of dating right now.
Do you date someone who is exactly your same or
do you date someone where you have shared values but
you're very different. And I think that's a real challenge
in friendship too, And I don't know the answer.

Speaker 1 (01:24:57):
I've found great relationships to not having the same exact value.
I do think it's very rare to truly have the
same exact values. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because push comes to shove,
you're going to choose something over the other.

Speaker 3 (01:25:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:10):
But I've found that the best relationships I have are
with people who respect my values and I respect theirs.
That's it, So we don't even have to agree. But
I really value that your value makes you you, and
so I respect it. Yes, and you value that my
value makes me me, and you respect it. And that

(01:25:30):
allows us to operate in our own universe and world
but have a mutual sense of appreciation.

Speaker 2 (01:25:36):
And that also brings up a point of like I
think that we should be. One of my favorite motions
that we don't talk about enough is aw yes, if
you respect someone else's value, like hopefully you could even
be odd by it. Like I have friends who have
an incredible work ethic. Do I don't work that hard?

Speaker 1 (01:25:52):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:25:52):
Like I work, but like I do.

Speaker 2 (01:25:54):
A lot with my family. Like I spend a lot
of time onmmy. Most of my time in the week,
I only spend about fifteen hours a week working. The
rest of my work is mommy. But I so respect
my friends who just they just kill it. They're always
working and there's a little bit of odd there. I'm like, wow,
Like you're just killing it. So I think that, like
it's who can create awe for you. Yeah, where they're

(01:26:15):
so kind that you're odd by them. They're so driven
that you're odd by them. They're so warm that you're
odd by them. And so I think that, like that's
a good way to think of it. Is it's not
the same. It's that you respect them enough and you
have some meat too moments of course, but like you
can have a little bit of on all your relationships,
even like in my marriage, I do conversation starter with
my husband all the time. And one of the ones

(01:26:37):
we did recently was in my newsletter, which is who is.

Speaker 3 (01:26:39):
Your role model? Which is different than who is your hero?

Speaker 2 (01:26:42):
Like hero is like more of like a like idolizing them,
whereas like a role model is someone that you maybe
aspire to be like. And he said me, and I
was like what why, and he was like, you know,
you just you're you're you're you, and I love that
about you. And I was like, wow, like this, it's
so important that we're odd by our partners. And so
when you're dating, I think a good little litmus test

(01:27:02):
for yourself is am I inspired by this person?

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:27:06):
Am I in awe of who they are or what
they do or what they believe? Because if the answer
is yes, that's a keeper, Like, that's a keeper. It's
more important than a checklist. Oh my ladies listening. I look,
I know we love.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
A checklist, but those checklists don't always serve us.

Speaker 1 (01:27:22):
Oh, definitely not. Those those are parameters are blocking people,
Like he has to be six foot four, and it's
like you could have a six foot three guy who
is perfect, but the filter has kept him out. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:27:32):
I think like maybe like lovingly burn the checklist.

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
Yes, it's like a scented candle, Like burn it because
I don't think it's serving, and then just go out.

Speaker 3 (01:27:44):
And just you know, find your person.

Speaker 1 (01:27:46):
Yeah. Oh gosh, I wanted to talk a bit about
women in the workplace. Yeah, because I think and as
you just talked about, you know, being a working mom,
And I think about women in the workplace, and I
think about how cues and body language are very different
in how we perceive men and women. And whenever I
speak to women, they'll say, I get seen as being

(01:28:07):
difficult instead of being direct. Yeah, I'm seen as being
argumentative as opposed to being assertive. I'm seen as being
moody as opposed to just having a failed, rejected day
or whatever would have happened. And I feel like the
standards are different. What does a woman do when she

(01:28:28):
feels that her directness is being seen as difficulty.

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):
So women are actually facing two challenges in the workplace today.
One is exactly what we said, that we can be
seen as bossy or dominant when we're actually just stating
our point of view.

Speaker 3 (01:28:41):
Assertiveness is bossiness.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
But on the other hand, we're also struggling with being
too likable, being interrupted, being underestimated, being too soft. And
so we actually have two sides that we're trying to wait.
We have this very narrow valley we're allowed to operate in. Right,
can't be too friendly, can't be too smiling, can't be
too likable because won't we taken seriously? Oh, but can't
be too a sort of can't be too Domino El
Specienes bossy. So we had this super narrow lane with

(01:29:05):
which we can operate in. So what I think is
really really important is focusing on the two traits that matter.
These are the only two traits that matter, which are
warmth and competence. When we are with someone whose signals
you can trust me, you can like me. I am
open to you, and you can rely on me. I'm productive,
I'm capable. Those are in that valley and they are

(01:29:29):
the most important signals that you can have in anything.
Video calls slack, your LinkedIn profile and so I wanted
this is a really weird challenge. I want you to
start with. We have the power of AI. Now, this
is a new thing that has just come up. I
want you to open up your favorite AI tool, and
I want to do two things. I want you to
copy and paste your LinkedIn profile. I want you to

(01:29:49):
put it in AI and ask AI, how warm and
competent am I. What's incredible is the warmth and competence
research that came out of Princeton, which is done by
doctor Susan Fisk. It was done in two thousand and
two and it's been replicated. It's a very solid piece
of research. AI models are trained in it. They know
about warmth and competence. So put it in AI. Ask

(01:30:10):
how am I coming across warmer competent? AI will tell
you based on the words you use. Then ask it,
make it more warm and competent, and just see what
they change. Then what I want you to do is
take five important emails that you've recently sent. What we
don't realize is our cues are changing the way people
treat us. So the types of words you use in
your emails are changing people's perception of your bossiness or

(01:30:34):
I would say over over friendliness. Take five emails you
spent some time crafting, put them into AI and ask AI,
how warm am I? How competent am I? How could
I have done better? We can use AI as a
charisma coach, and it is incredibly helpful to see are
you leaking? Are you showing cues of warmth and competence?

(01:30:54):
Just verbally like forget in person, like forget the nonverbal.
We have to start with the email first. That will
be a really important test. Right off the bat, see
what it says and it will tell you, Oh, you're
leaning far warm. So, for example, in our research, we
have students who are off the charts in warmth. They
love emojis. Okay, my highly warm folks, Oh my goodness.

(01:31:16):
They love emojis and exclamation points, and they love words
like yay, fab whoop, and wow. Okay, these are my
I know when I can read emails from a person
and be like, this person highly warm, and they're interrupted
in meetings. This person is highly warm and they're not
taken seriously. This person is highly warm and they're getting

(01:31:37):
pushed back on their salary range. This person is highly
warm and they are not be seen as credible in
their interviews. I can look at your emails and I
can tell you what professional challenges you're facing, and so
can you. Highly competent folks, on the other hand, they
under exclaim they don't use a lot of emojis, and
they love data percents, numbers and figures.

Speaker 3 (01:31:55):
They love those.

Speaker 2 (01:31:56):
In fact, for a highly competent person, it's physically painful
to use a exclame point. It's like, oh, but it's
not credible. But you know what that means. You're undersignaling warmth.
It means if you are if you are too formal,
too sterile in your communications. That could be the reason
that people are like, oh, I do like she doesn't
give me a good feeling. I can't connect to her.

(01:32:16):
She's too dominant. And this comes directly from the research.
And this is a quote I remember that I don't
remember quotes often, but this quote struck me so deeply.
Competence without warmth leaves us feeling suspicious. Yes, this is
the curse of highly smart women. Highly smart women are
in the workplace and there they have great ideas, they

(01:32:39):
have super high competence, and they rely on their smarts.
They're like, my ideas are so strong, my prep my presentations,
I know my stuff. I don't need the warmth. My
ideas are so good they'll they'll live on their own.
But the research shows it doesn't matter how smart you are,
it doesn't matter how good your ideas are, it doesn't
matter how well prepared you are. I'm sorry if you

(01:33:01):
do not showcase it with warmth, people are suspicious of you.
Oh that's so good, and so we have to be
able to balance out our competence with our warmth, those ideas,
with the lubricant of warmth.

Speaker 1 (01:33:12):
That is so good. That is so good and you're
so right that we all think we can compensate for
our lack of warmth with competence, that's it. Or we
can compensate for our lack of competence with warmth, right,
And the point is people won't respect or like you
based on They'll like you if you're warm, but they
won't respect and men.

Speaker 3 (01:33:31):
Have the same problem. I think that women's valley is
just smaller.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
I agree. I really like that, Yeah, that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:35):
We just have a very narrow way to be and
like even sometimes like I do a lot of interviews
and I'm on you know, social media a lot, even
in my grid on Instagram, I am trying to balance
this very narrow lane of warmth and competence.

Speaker 3 (01:33:50):
It's why I think so many, like women, we feel.

Speaker 2 (01:33:53):
Like we have to share, like our breakfast, Like we
feel like we have to share because we're like.

Speaker 3 (01:33:58):
Oh, I don't want to be too competent. I don't
want to be too smart on that.

Speaker 2 (01:34:02):
Side, and so we also we compensate or try to
balance in the wrong ways. And so I would much
rather you take control of your interactions, right, we talk
about control.

Speaker 3 (01:34:10):
That's the way we do. It is we know.

Speaker 2 (01:34:12):
Okay, well, there's ninety seven cues, here's warm ones, here's
competent once. I'm gonna choose my recipe right, Like, I
look different than other women because I don't want to
use all the same cues, But I need to find
what's the recipe that I feel the most comfortable with.
What's the flavor of charisma that I like the most?
It makes me feel like myself.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
That I mean, that is the recipe for respect.

Speaker 3 (01:34:30):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:31):
Yeah, it's as simple as that, and do everything we've
talked about today. What I deeply appreciate is that it's earned,
it's built, it's engineered, it's prepared for. It's not something
that someone just has and turns up with. Which is
this myth that I think makes people go, that's just special? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:34:51):
And I like sometimes in my comments, I try not
to read comments, but sometimes my comments people say, you know,
just show up as yourself. You know this is this
is manipulative, this engineering. And I'm like, yeah, because if
you are lucky enough that you can show up and
just be charismatic, win friends, amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:35:08):
I am so happy for you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:10):
But most of us don't have that privilege, like I
do not, and so I think that, yeah, it is
a little bit engineered in the sense of if you
feel competent and you feel warm, you should know how
to showcase that. I often felt warm and felt competent,
but I had no idea how to show it. And
so I think that there is a rare bird of
magic people and they are amazing and we can learn

(01:35:30):
from them. But for most of us, it's just dialing
up our natural warmth and competence and just knowing how
to show it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:36):
I want to remind people I think this stuff can
be used disingenuously. Oh yes, And it's only disingenuous if
it goes back to what we were talking about earlier,
where it shifts in the manipulation, it shifts to like
trying to get something out of something and extraction and lying.

Speaker 2 (01:35:52):
And you know, this is my greatest fear, by the way. Yeah,
Like before I came out with Cues, especially, I had
like a like a life crisis because I started writing
the book and I was like, oh no, like this
could be used for evil, and like I had a
whole thing with my publisher where I was like, I
don't know if I should publish this, Like I don't

(01:36:13):
these are tools that people could use for bad and
I and she was like, yeah, but they could also
be used for good. And so I sat with my
team and I talked to them about it, and we
decided to move forward with it. Obviously, and you know,
it's changed so many people. But that is my biggest
fear is that people will use this for bad, not good.
And so it's really important I think for everyone listening

(01:36:34):
that if you have the intention to build friendships and
to find your people and to be warm.

Speaker 3 (01:36:40):
That's why we started off with that word.

Speaker 2 (01:36:42):
Whatever word, it is great, like that is your intention,
and that is only searching for good, and that should
always be our intention.

Speaker 1 (01:36:49):
I love that, Vanessa. You are incredible. I think you
musterify go between cold and confidence. I can now we
spent two hours together. No, I mean it's I think
the work you're doing is amazing, and I think it's
so needed in a time when a lot of us
are dealing with low self esteem, low confidence. We think

(01:37:10):
everyone else is impressive and we're.

Speaker 3 (01:37:12):
Not, and we're lonely and lonely, and we're underestimated.

Speaker 1 (01:37:17):
Yes, and we look around and we think we're the
only one struggling when the reality is someone just had
the chance to develop a few of these skills, maybe
in a workplace, maybe in college, maybe their parents had
some of these naturally. And you don't have to feel
that what you have now is all you have.

Speaker 2 (01:37:37):
That's it, And not everyone is going to be your flavor. Yeah,
you don't have to let everyone like you. In fact,
that doesn't.

Speaker 3 (01:37:44):
It is impossible.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
So I would rather you go into conversation finding your people,
the people who like your weirdness, the people who like
your awkwardness, the people who truly value your value.

Speaker 3 (01:37:54):
And everyone else wish them well.

Speaker 2 (01:37:56):
Yeah, but like, life is too short to spend time
with people that we're ambivalent to about. Life is too
short to not say hey, like it's too short.

Speaker 1 (01:38:03):
Yeah, absolutely, And it's there's this old meme that I
love that people post and it says, confidence isn't everyone
will like me confidences, I'll be okay if everyone doesn't,
that's it, and that I've always loved that because I
think we think confidence means, oh, everyone likes them, and
A that's not true for anyone at all, and B

(01:38:25):
it's no, I'll be okay if they don't, because I
know why I did that. I know why I showed
up that way. I know why I said hey because
life's too short. I know why I made eye contact
because I wanted to form a real connection. I know
why we went on a road trip because I wanted
to make sure that someone was not just being a
script and grew with me. Yeah, it's like I did

(01:38:48):
all of that, and I know why I did it,
even if it didn't go the way I wanted it
to go. Yeah, Vanessa, thank you so much for showing
up in your full self. We end every episode of
On Purpose with the final five. These have to be
answered in one word to one sentence maximum. You're not
going to overseerect Vanessa. Your first question is what is
the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 3 (01:39:10):
Don't say yes to everything good advice.

Speaker 1 (01:39:13):
Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever
heard or received?

Speaker 3 (01:39:17):
Just be yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:39:19):
Doesn't help me. It doesn't help Yeah, because especially you
don't even know what you're capable of.

Speaker 2 (01:39:24):
When people would say that's me, what if you don't
like yourself? I had a long time where I didn't
like myself, So when someone said be yourself, that was
like the worst way to be and so I had
to figure out something else. And so I think that
that was hard. That was the worst advice because it
actually didn't help me.

Speaker 1 (01:39:39):
Yeah, I love the answer question number three, And you
can expand on this a bit, because I think it's
really important. I feel like right now we're losing a
lot of these cues because most of us are on
a dating app and we're messaging, so you don't even
get to see what someone's looking at. You don't get there, hey, hey,

(01:40:00):
get that. Yes, you don't get the smell. You don't
get the ability to give twenty nine you know, you
don't get it, And so what are we losing and
how do we navigate it?

Speaker 2 (01:40:12):
What we're losing is freedom because they're so narrow those apps.
It's like, how do you look?

Speaker 3 (01:40:20):
Okay? Now what are these five questions that are on
your profile? How did you answer them?

Speaker 1 (01:40:24):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:40:24):
Now we're going to text in.

Speaker 2 (01:40:25):
It's very weird, limited way back and forth, and so
we lack the freedom to be like, so like, what
brings you here to this gym?

Speaker 3 (01:40:32):
Oh? You come here a lot?

Speaker 1 (01:40:33):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:40:33):
I saw you with your friend, Like, we need more
freedom to find our people. I don't dislike dating apps
because I think they've created a number of beautiful friendships.
And but what I think that is really important is
you don't use them as your only vehicle for dating.

Speaker 3 (01:40:48):
Make them be one vehicle.

Speaker 2 (01:40:50):
But then if you're dating and you're really serious about
finding your person, make it your part time job and
go to the places where your person would be. So
when I'm my friends is also dating and she's a
dog and I was like, sure, do the apps one,
you know, thirty minutes a day at the most. Otherwise,
I want you to go to every dog park within

(01:41:12):
a mile of you every day after work and just
look around, talk to everyone, talk to men, talk to women,
and just start talking to the people o those dog parks.
You know why they live within a mile of you.
They are dog owners and you can see.

Speaker 3 (01:41:26):
Them with their dog. And she was like, oh, And
I was like, that's your part time job.

Speaker 2 (01:41:31):
So just make sure that dating apps aren't your only
way that you're going to the places where they might
be and you're spending more time there than on the app.

Speaker 1 (01:41:37):
I love that. It's great advice. Did you find someone
yet not yet? No? Yeah, that's cool. I really like
that though, I really like that, why do I want
to go a question for for how do we get

(01:42:00):
comfortable with awkward pauses? Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:42:03):
No, hmm, so actually here's how we do it. Powerful
people pause more. Pausing is a signal to someone that
you're not rushed. So one, if someone else has paused,
you have made them comfortable enough where they don't feel
like they have to rush with you.

Speaker 1 (01:42:20):
Gift.

Speaker 3 (01:42:21):
If you are pausing, you are giving space to say
I'm okay for just this second to pause, and so
pausing shows you're doing something right.

Speaker 1 (01:42:32):
I love that I do it all. I did it
just then even to come up with that question because
I was trying to figure out where we wanted to go, yeah,
and I didn't want to just do this what I'm
doing now, which is like, oh, I'm think of it
as wet to ask you next, and I'm not sure
where to go with it, but I'm thinking about it, like,
let me just think about it for a second. Is
that okay?

Speaker 3 (01:42:48):
And it's just filler.

Speaker 1 (01:42:50):
It's just filler, and we're lost, and it's like, well, no,
I actually didn't know. And I thought about it for
a second and it.

Speaker 3 (01:42:55):
Gave me a moment to take a breath. And we
both feel comfortable and feels comfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:42:59):
Yeah, and it's okay to do that. Fifth and final question,
we asked this to every guest who's ever been on
the show. If you could create one law that everyone
had to follow, what would it be?

Speaker 3 (01:43:10):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
If I had to create one law but everyone had
to follow, it would be no more fake smiles. I
like that, no more fake smiles. If you like it,
like it, heck, yes, like it. If you don't like it,
don't pretend. We would be so much better off with
no fake smiles because we would actually know what people
like and don't like.

Speaker 1 (01:43:30):
I like that advice. That's good. That's good, Vanessa, Vana adverts. Everyone,
Thank you so much. That was a master class. Oh
my goodness, dating, work, communication cues. I really hope you
come back on the show. I would love it, and
I hope you get to spend more time together. And
everyone's been listening or watching. I want you to tell me.
I want you to tag me and Vanessa on Instagram,

(01:43:51):
on TikTok. I want you to share with us what
you're testing, what you're trying, what you're experimenting with. If
you said hey to someone right, whichever one of these
that you did. I want you to tell us that
you're doing it. I want you to share with us
what you're trialing, because that's where we learn together. You're
going to inspire so many people who follow you and
connect with you, your friends and family, to learn about

(01:44:11):
how they can master the secret language of charismatic communication.
You have the ability everyone else she now does as well.
It's just about finding it and building it. Vanessa has
the blueprint. Go and follow her across social media, grab
her books, and tag us both when you're listening to
this episode.

Speaker 2 (01:44:28):
If you not at someone and you end up that
they're your soulmate and you come to Austin, Texas, I.

Speaker 3 (01:44:34):
Will marry you. Okay, Like, let's create some soulmates. Let's
make some on purpose babies.

Speaker 1 (01:44:41):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:44:41):
I will marry you. But if you hate someone and
they hate you back, I'll marry you.

Speaker 1 (01:44:46):
That's brilliant. I love that. That's so cool. Hey everyone,
if you love that conversation, go and check out my
episode with the world's leading therapist Lourie Gottlieb, where she
answers the biggest questions that people ask in the therapy
when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If
you're trying to figure out that space right now, you

(01:45:07):
won't want to miss this conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:45:09):
If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands.

Speaker 3 (01:45:13):
It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems.
Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Vanessa Van Edwards: Stop Overthinking Every Social Interaction! (Use THESE Cues to Be Liked, Respected, and Build Confidence in Every Conversation)