December 28, 2023 • 34 mins
Haters get a bad wrap and for good reason. They demean, ridicule, and well...hate, but they are often the catalyst in many of the Black stories we know and love.
We hear about haters in songs, memoirs, acceptance speeches. It’s possible that without haters, we would only have a fraction of the Black stories we have today.
In this episode, Katie and Yves discuss haters’ place in the Black storytelling ecosystem.
Follow us on Instagram @onthemeshow
Email us at hello@ontheme.show
For show notes, visit our website ontheme.show
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather Friends.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Media haters get a bad rap, and for good reason.
(00:25):
They demean, ridicule, and well hate, but there are oftentimes
a catalysts in many of the black storytellers we know
and love origin stories. This week's episode, I'd like to
thank my haters.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm Katie and I'm Eves, And in this episode we'll
discuss hater's place in the black storytelling ecosystem. We hear
about haters and songs, memoirs, acceptance speeches and the like.
It's possible that without haters we would only have a
fraction of the black stories that we have today. You
(00:58):
know what they say, No, Katie, what do they say?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hater's gone hate? Okay, hate, hose ain't happy and happy
hose ain't hating. There'll always be haters, that's the way
it is. Hated. Niggas marry hater bitchesn't have hater kids.
That's enough, Katie, Okay, we get it. They say a
lot about haters, a hell of a whole lot, like
for a group that is so widely disdained, they always
get shouted out. And as a hater myself, I think
(01:24):
it's time, we look at haters for what they truly are.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
And what is that?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Muses?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Okay, muses, that's very flattering, And you know what, it
absolutely is an art form and black folks have taken
full advantage of its storytelling power.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Everything in storytelling does not have to be positive. Haters
are storytellers too, and they inspire a lot of storytelling too.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
True, true, But I'd say a hater is someone who
is always looking at the negative, quick with critiques, slow
with compliments, most likely because they're jealous of whatever or
whomever there hat.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Okay, that's not a very good description of somebody and
you identify as.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
That, Yeah, I mean not all the time, but I
definitely can go there, and I think everybody does. But
I'm just self aware enough to admit it. I'd be
hating shit, Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I like how you flip that on his head. You're
self aware, Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I mean I'm talking petty stuff like I'm not talking
about hate cryings or white supremacy or cyberbully and I
ain't into all that.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And we're also not talking about people who offer criticism
from a genuine place right exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
No one's above constructive criticism. That's not hating.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Okay, good, I'm glad we're setting some boundaries around this.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I'm a hater, but I'm Rickory. Shit, dude, you have
an instance of being hated one.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
It takes a certain amount of bravado to say that somebody,
there is a person alive in this world who even
wants to hate on me or has a reason to,
but so humbful. Look, I guess this is how we're different.
And no, I'm just kidding. But I did think about it,
and I thought about a moment that I was very
(03:10):
annoyed by, and I didn't understand why it seemed like
someone had animosity toward me. And this person was older
than me, and this person was in a position of
power because they were one of my professors in college,
I thought that I did finding class, and according to
the grade that I got in that class, which was
an A, I thought the professor thought I did find
(03:31):
in class. But at the school, you could go and
see comments that your professor's left about you, and I'm
looking through the comments, and I remember getting to the
specific professor's comments and it was a total one eighty
from the experience that I had in class she and
I were cool. We had no beef whatsoever, Like I
(03:51):
would even even like she's complimented me in certain instances.
I go look through her comments. She says stuff about
me and like she was a partier. She would always
come to class late. That was not true at all.
You know how I am about school. I came to
class one time every class.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I'm not So she was lying.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Like she was no, not low key, she was lying.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So what do you chalk that up to jealousy envy?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Because like, what else would it be from a person
who is literally twice my age?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So she saw you like a young artist like out here,
like on the precipice of life, and she was hating.
She was jealous because that had passed for her?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Or I mean, I don't want to guess, because my
guess is as good as yours, and I to this
day am confused.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Well, that falls into the old hater trope.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Excuse me? You have tropes here?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Oh? Absolutely, you really have thought deeply about this. I know,
why would a hater not think about Hayden? I actually
made my own official, unofficial list of hater tropes, and
you'll get to decide whether you all into any of
these categories. After the break, all right.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
We're back, and I for one am ready to crack
open your hater's handbook. So let's get into these tropes. First.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
There's the classic motivation trope where the hater hates, which
motivates the hate t to prove them wrong, and when
the hat eventually succeeds, the hat t turns around to
taunt the hater with their success.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Okay, that's very intricate. I must say also that I
love the term hat t.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, I think you might have coined this. Yeah, don't
try to take my stuff, y'all. So we see the
motivation trope and tis aptly named motivation.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I honestly, Katie, I do feel like it's a little
bit spiritual and it feels kind of Buddhist in a way,
like I did some Buddhist study and I continue to
do so. It is to me relevant to this idea
of tolerance that does come up in Buddhist sutras. So
the idea of letting your haters be your motivators is
(06:21):
it can be viewed from like a deeper lens. I
feel like where you're saying that there are people who
you know are in your life that are going to
cause you pain. You know that there are people who
are going to say some stuff about you that you
don't like, and that's going to be coming from them,
and that doesn't have anything to do with you. And indeed,
you can use that as fuel on the fire. You
(06:45):
are practicing tolerance in that way. And of course I
want to say here to be very clear about it,
that I'm not talking about abusive situations in any way.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
N'civing and a Buddha philosopher.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I mean, I maybe wouldn't go that far because he
has a whole lived life, but parts of it. And
for this song and this idea of hating the songs
and the lyrics in the song kind of became a
monitra for the people. Yeah. It's like, instead of letting
it be a thing that festers in a wound and
(07:21):
grow and be something that you in turn choose to
reflect back to the outside world, you choose to sit
with it, acknowledge it, and then instead say, instead of
letting this thing ruin me and using it to ruin others,
I choose in this moment to make the decision to
(07:42):
let it be something that motivates me.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think in the instance of the
motivation trope, it is an example of it festering still,
even though fester has a negative connotation, Like the hater
is very much in this person's head and they're saying like, oh,
I'm want to prove them wrong. I'm gonna do this.
It's a lot of external what's the word, like external
(08:10):
locus of control A little bit, I would say, okay,
because it's not like it's just in you, like I
want to be successful because just because that's in me,
it's like this person did me wrong and I'm going
to prove them wrong. Right, That's how I see the
motivation trope. Huh. And we see it. We see it
a lot. There's there's so many examples of that, and
(08:33):
it's like, well, if this hater never came around, would
you just be like right twiddling your thumbs.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Hmm. Yeah. I think that's a very interesting point because
from that comes this idea of like, what's the value
judgment between external factors weighing on you versus internal factors
weighing on you? And it's one better than the other.
So I see what you're saying, because in one way,
it can be the very opposite of something that's conscious
and mindful and thoughtful, because you're only doing it to
(09:02):
spite somebody else or to prove something to somebody else,
versus it being something that you would do without any
sort of outside sway or influence. And I think that's
an interesting conversation, but I don't necessarily think that that
negates the idea that it could be conscious, because we
live in a world right we have to interface with
(09:25):
other people and we have to choose how to respond
to them. And it's not like you can control what
other people say to you or do to you. You
can only choose how you respond. So pretty much everything
we do is a response, whether that's internal or external.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
For sure, my mom is always telling me and Katie,
you choose how you respond to me, and I'm like, well,
I'm choosing violence, and that's valid, Katie.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So next is the bad trope, and this one is
a fun one, and this one, the hater hates the
Haiti succeeds despite the hate. But in a surprise twist,
the hater tries to hop on the bandwagon. But our
Haiti has not forgotten, and our Hadi reminds the hater
(10:18):
of their initial hater ways. Okay, so we see this
in Cardi B's Bronx season. It's a really good example.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And it's secret to me just because that you stripped,
but it's so good because now they want to get
up in my pip.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So I feel like this is one that is very
prevalent in rap. So I guess it can operate in
a way that is holding a grudge and it's something
that you're not able to let go of, but it
can also be a thing where it's boundary setting. Yes,
and it's like you did this before, I don't know
you won't do this again. Is it healthy to have
you in my life? Why are you here? Because what
(10:51):
are your intentions for coming back?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Snake?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Okay? I feel like there's a lot of like childhood
fables or folk tales about like a snake that like
bites you after you help them, because it's like I
helped you, Like why would you do that? And the
snake is always like, because I'm a snake, that's what
snakes do. And it's like if a person shows you that,
(11:20):
when you down it out, you know, whatever that looks
like for you in this example, Carti says it was
her stripping or like, you know, trying to get it
out the mud and they hating on you, and then
when you did your big one, they want to be
in the in the group like, oh, yeah, I always
knew it, Like, no, you know you didn't. You would
(11:41):
actively try to make it not happen. And so I mean,
is it holding a grudge? Sure, but I feel like
that has a negative connotation. I like the boundary setting
because you already showed me who you are. And I
feel like black people love this quote. You know what
I'm gonna say, a Black people love this quote, but
it always boils down the haters on no one shows
you who they are. Believe them who they are.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Believe them, Yes, absolutely, A person says to you, I'm selfish?
Are I mean? Are I am unkind? Oh I'm crazy?
I believe them. They know themselves much better than you do.
(12:23):
And I think that applies, especially so in a case
like the one you just mention it, because it's like
you were doing this to that person when they were
having difficulties. It's easy to treat people well when they're
having a good time, when they're doing well in their
lives and you want to be in their circle exactly,
or when they can help add to your image in
some sort of way. But when you're down and out
(12:45):
and this person is hating on you and they're not
helping you out and they're not being like offering positive
reinforcement in your life, then you really just you're not
a great person. So yeah, I definitely I can see
how you would lean toward the boundary setting side, because
it can be holding a grudge, but I could see
(13:05):
how it would be more toward the other side, because
if you have a history of a certain relationship with somebody,
then you're gonna act in kind. You're going to act
as that person treated you.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Like, not letting them too close because you've seen how
they act. And I think if you like, oh, we're cool,
you'll always gonna be looking at them sideways anyway.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And that's where you lean into the whole situation of
being cordial, right, which is a weird place to be
in with people.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Girl, don't let me see a nigga out it's on site.
I ain't no cordial about it, you know what. And
this is like, this isn't this is a cousin to
another Another way of hating that I've seen is called
the controversy trope. Okay, so it's the cousin of the
(13:57):
bandwagon trope, especially in the online world. Let's say you
know another popular rapper, a popular writer. Some artists putting
out something, They're always going to be on the opposite
of what they put out, like, oh, this song is
bad or this op ed is whatever negative adjective, just
(14:17):
so that they can be in the news cycle, because
I feel like with journalism there's like a lot of
both siderism. So it's like, oh, well, you know, this
op ed talking about black lives matter, written by this
black journalist came out today and people found it really enlightening.
But this one conservative thinks that all black people should die,
(14:40):
So we have that out there too, you know what
I mean. So it's like you are like using that
person's cloud fame to elevate yourself, uh huh. And I
find it a bit disingenuous because I'm like, yeah, I
don't disagree with everything this person says, but you know
how the algorithm works, you know how the news cycles works,
so that your name could be an association with them.
(15:03):
So if you are googling Beyonce, if you're googling ton
of Hosey codes. If you're googling you know, whatever, famous person,
your name shows up in that and that starch history too.
So I feel like that's a cousin of the bandwagon, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Because at once you're attaching yourself to that person in
order to feed off of their You're parasite.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Ooh, that's that's the name parasite.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
The parasite trope.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, And that's a very of this age trope. It
feels like some of these other ones have spanned across time.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I feel like more more current.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Definitely it is, and I guess we'll see how it
continues to evolve in the future. But we should be
more self evaluatory about it, because it's so easy to
fall into these things as people who have to make
livings in this world, especially if you're a media and
you're doing online and your lifeline is kind of attached
to being.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Online, right and having an opinion.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, we're forced in these boxes. But and yet we
don't evaluate the choices that we make and the consequences
that they have, and the way that it reflects on
how we choose to talk about other people in the
world who have their own lives and their own images
to deal on their own reputations that are on the
line as well, And it's like, we're kind of damned
(16:29):
if we do, damned if we don't. We're damned if
we do morally ethically because of the things that we're
saying about this person for the click for the story,
But we're damned if we don't because we kind of
need to do that to be able to pop, to
stand out in this landscape.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
The other thing I would say is I feel like
the Haiti definitely plays into this trope the most because
I remember, you know, there's a Reverer that I used
to like, and she would be doing cool stuff and
you know, comment little positive things like oh you killing it,
go girl, love to see it, blah blah blah, and
you know, as social media is an interaction, but I
(17:07):
noticed that she would never reply to any positive comments
about her. But at what, like there could be one
hundred positive comments, let one person say something negative. She's
writing a five paragraph essay and I'm like, girl, are
you dumb? Like what do you think this is going
to do? So next time, when someone knows that they
(17:28):
want your attention, want you to respond to them. What
do you think they're going to do. They're going to
say something negative because they know that really gets under
your skin.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And it's so fulfilling cycle.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah for sure, because like I mean, I know, I'm
not going to say nothing crazy publicly about anybody, but
like some people are just like, well, I want her
to respond either way. So I'm not gonna say anything
nice because she doesn't respond to anything nice, you know.
So I feel like this trope in particular, parasites are
annoying and you want to scratch at them and pick
at them and like get off me. But I feel
(18:01):
like it just attracts more.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And that's the word.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Okay, okay, okay, this is my favorite trope. Okay are
you ready?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I'm ready.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I call it the old switch roo. So in the
old switcher root, we have a secret hater and the
secret hater only likes the hat when they're struggling, you know,
trying to make it but really not there. But when
the haiti becomes successful bounced switcheroo, the hater reveals their
(18:34):
true hater ways.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Okay, so why is this your favorite? You know?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I like the drama, the intrigue. The hater's a little steals,
probably sabotage in the Haiti, so they remain in the
muck and the mud with them.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So are you this type of hater?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
No, if I'm hating on you, you will not be in
under any illusion that we're friends. So you're safe, okay,
and you don't follow rappers personalized. But the person that
comes to mind to me for falling victim to this
trope in particular is Megan thee Stallion. She addressed the
situation with her best her ex best friend, and her
(19:13):
song ungrateful.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
If I was still and you broke in, we won't
be I feel like this is an antithesis of the
last one, because when they're down and out, everything's cool. Yeah,
And then once a person gets some fame, gets people
talking about them, is in the news, is in the press,
or they're just or they're just watching them, and they're
(19:36):
in a position that they want to be in, then
then that's when they become a hater. But they've been
a hater all along, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
It was latent.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
It was latent, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So I think if the person never became successful, you
would never see that.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Okay, okay, oh that is that's a stressful way to
be That's a stressful way to live as a person
because that means that you're like for somebody is disingenuine
the whole time. But also like, let people be successful
because there's only so much room in life to do things,
(20:09):
and like so few of us are going to be successful.
I guess in like grand or larger than life ways.
So I don't know, I don't like this one KB.
This is this one bothers me?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, and that said it's my favorite. Yeah. I think
it's the thing about proximity. You know, maybe they aren't
self aware enough to know that they were going to
have this reaction, but because of the proximity, it's like
we're friends, Damn, we like the same beach, Like why
not me?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
You know what I'm saying. So it's like, for in
Megan's case, her friend who I believe she's known since
at least college, you know, this girl wrote a distrack,
a rap distract to began this stallion. So it's clearly
you're like, oh, I could do it, she do I
can rap too. It was terrible you're not Megan, sweetie. Embarrassing,
(21:01):
so embarrassing, But it's like the why not me? And
because of the proximity, it's like, even because I feel
like haters at the core, it's always why not me?
But because you know that person that switcher rough happens
that you might not see coming as the hater.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
See. The only thing I will push back on is
I wouldn't say across the board, it's always a why
not me? I think you're giving humanity a little too
much credit and saying that it's probably always why not me?
Because I think sometimes people just want to see the
world burn. They just don't they don't care. It enlivens
them to release this hate and energy. How do you
(21:43):
feel about this trope? Like do you think that it
is one that is prevalent in our time right now?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah? I mean, and even what you said about like
our lives are sure and like not all of us
are gonna be successful in like these really grandiose ways.
I think it doesn't even have to be grandiose. I
think I could get a fucking new a new Honda Civic.
IM just don't like to too.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
What can be riding down the street and you get to
a red light and they're looking at you real say, wait,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
It doesn't have to be grandiose. It could just be like, dang,
like she she got a new job before I did.
I can't believe that she. I don't know, she got
on a cute outfit and I don't. You know what
I'm saying. It really doesn't have to be grandiose. It's like,
it's it's levels to this, and I feel like this
trope falls on every level. But I do think it's
(22:45):
the proximity and the friendship or even maybe like a
familial relationship where you can see this a lot of
the times because people they grow up seeing you a
certain way and they want it's comfortable for you. Be
like that's her, I know her, she's like this. But
then when it's such a when you see a change,
it's like that makes me a little uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, what a sad way to walk through life. I'm
sorry to these people. Sorry to that man. Okay, So
I noticed that all of your examples came from songs,
specifically a rap songs. So are rappers getting hated on disproportionately?
Is this like a systemic issue or something.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I noticed that too, and I don't think so. We
definitely have some R and B hater bombs like Dustney's
Child So Good, where Beyonce says this is for them
haters that said we wouldn't make it. Now we're doing
platinum and now y'all can't take it. For all the
people around us, it's been negative. Look at us, now,
see how we live.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
That sounds like it fits into the motivation trope.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Ah, yes, young guys happened. Indeed, I learned quickly. But
I do think the nature of hip hop, the bravado,
the grit, lends itself to this theme. I'm sure blue
singers were getting hated on too, but because of what
blues is as a genre, they probably felt more defeated
after the interaction, like Buddy Guy talking about I can't
(24:06):
win because I don't have a thing to lose, Like uhuh.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I'd be surprised to hear a rapper admit.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
That it ain't gonna happen if they ain't won, the
story ain't done in the facts.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I do think the hater is a fruitful storytelling device, though,
like all good stories, have some sort of conflict and
when you're talking about a hater, the conflict is central,
and it gives the audience clear heroes versus villains.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And haters get the stories we tell ourselves structure and
meaning interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Can you elaborate on that?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Like I used to find myself assigning meaning to the
bad things that happened to me, Like this had to
happen so I'd have a reason to go so hard
and succeed. A lot of the stories we consume teach
us that life cannot be easy, and not only are
hardships inevitable, they're necessary. So I think haters are a
good plug in for an obstacle on the way to greatness.
(25:00):
Without haters, the story would be incomplete. Yeah at the
real Arian jokes about it in this TikTok perfectly. I'm
trying to build rapple. Let me start.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Stop helping me.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I can't get on the track and say my family
ain't never want me to make it. My family never
they always hated on me. If y'all keep looking out
for me, I need a story that what people want
to heal.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Sometimes you absolutely need a hater to tell your story.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So what are some other examples of haters outside of music,
I would assume that there's a bunch of them.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
For sure. For sure. What I found interesting was that
the more long form storytelling, the narrator usually doesn't call
the hater a hater out right, and the haters I
encountered in books and in news stories had their own tropes.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
That's interesting. So why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Probably because if you're writing a book, you're looking at
events over a longer view. So instead of saying this
person is a hater, someone writing a novel or a
memoir will tell a story and write a scene that
clearly shows, hey, we got some hatter over here.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
It's a little bit more subtle, yeah, just.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
A tad letting the audience come to their own conclusions
through witnessing actions.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And because songs are short, you got to get in
and get out. You really have to get to the point.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
And for long form haters, they seem to have more power.
The haters were more powerful, m which brings us to
our next trope, the old hater old baby more after
the break back with some old haters.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Okay, oh goodness.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Can you tell me what this trope is? By the title,
I mean, I have an idea.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Based on what the title is. Are you saying that
an old person is hating on a younger one? Ding
ding ding? Okay, so here comes to generation wars.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I have receipts, and it's just not an old person
hating on someone because they're young. It's usually an older
person who is in the same field or industry hating
on someone in a newer generation who is is in
their review, surpassing them or doing it the wrong way.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, that's kind of like that should be me or
similar to like an okay boomer situation for.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Sure, like Jesse Jackson, Oh hair, not Jesse Jackson. You
gonna maybe you roll a clip? Oh no, Well, actually
the audio isn't the best because sneaky Jesse Jackson was
(27:32):
whispering on the hot mic. But what he said was
Barack he's talking down to black people on the faith
based I want to cut his nuts off.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Oh my goodness, I forgot about that.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
The year was two thousand and eight. Barack Obama was
campaigning to become the first black president of the United States,
and what was Jesse Jackson doing?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
What?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Hey? And why what's it? Because Barack Obama was talking
down to black people, as he stated on the hot mic,
Or was really because Jesse Jackson ran to be the
first black president in eighty eight? Was it because Jackson
Jackson was looking at Barock thinking that should have been me?
Damn Jesse, And Jesse ain't the only old hater in
(28:14):
the political arena, girl, I know the political arena is
full of haters, all of them and democracy and black
Eddie god Junior writes about al Sharpton Hatten on Black
Lives Matter protesters during his eulogy of Mike Brown. Al
Sharpton through a job talking about some leaders, mad about
other leaders, more folks worried about getting on the program
(28:35):
than developing a program.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
That's a bold choice for eulogy.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
But then in a Washington Post profile he went in
talking about I heard them saying that we don't want
Sharpton taking over our movement. But my question is what movement?
Y'all ain't got nothing to take over? How comes Sharpton
sleas in march? Because I organize the march, I brought
the crowd, I got the permit. Those parts cost us
(29:00):
twenty thousand dollars. You want to run the march, fine,
get your own. Damn poor to potties, m you sound
just like a girl petty petty, very petty, very old hater.
But in both examples, the old hater has some power still,
even if it's waning. They're of a mindset that there
can only be one and it better be them.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
So I don't think you have to be old to
have that mindset, though, no.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I agree. We see this in the novel The Other
Black Girl, which looks at office politics and the need
for some black people to be the only one or
the favorite one.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
So can you give the people a little synopsis?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah? So The Other Black Girl is set in the
New York publishing industry, which is notoriously white. We have
the protagonist, Nella and the other Black Girl, Hazel. Hazel
is hired at Nella's publishing house and Nella's excited to
have a friend, but Hazel ain't there to make friends.
She scoops Nella on a manuscript and has hours long
secret meetings with Nella's boss, and of course this leads
(29:56):
to Hazel being the office favorite and it threatens to
sideline Nella's curry.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Honestly, that's relatable.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yep, Mine eyes have seen the hated land. You remember
Invisible Man when the narrator finds out mister Bledsoe wrote
him a negative letter of recommendation while pretending that he
was supporting him, which is the reason why he wasn't
able to get into college. Mister Blodsoe was white and
the unnamed narrator was black, and the narrator getting into
(30:22):
college wouldn't hurt mister Blodsoe in any way. He was
already successful white man in a whole other state. But
he still went out of his way to be a hater.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, there are some haters that be hating in truly
nonsensical ways. Mister Bloodsoe saw the narrator's light and he
tried to put it out.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I don't even know what I call that trope hating
to be hating, I guess I think if I were
to trit about haters, I do it in the fictional
long form way, because I'm no songwriter or memoirs. But
I make it a personal rule to not bring up
my haters in public forums. Like imagine you're giving an interview,
reading your wedding, or even delivering an acceptance speech, and
(31:02):
you use even a fraction of that time to address
a hater. The hater want too at that point, like
break off a piece of that award and hand it
over because they're winning in that moment. Basically, let me
tell it, and nobody did anything wrong to me. Everyone's
shown love. I like to thank God and my mom
a period.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You say that, but the people don't know you lying
about it.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, I mean they can't prove it unless someone comes
out like no, I hate her, which is what we.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
All want anywhere like that would be a moment of
drama that nobody would be mad at.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I actually hate her, immad she.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Is succeeding Katie. Where is that beat coming from?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
It's coming from the heart. You know, you rarely hear
from the haters themselves, but that changes today. You want
to know why I'm hating knowing you because I'm a hater.
That's what haters do. Duh. I'm in a Honda, you
whip been arranged. I see you out. I'm a hater
on everything. Those full eyebrows, I hate them. You're outfit.
Gonna shade it. Hate it is a game, and baby,
I'm gonna play it. Do not collect to hunt it,
(32:05):
do not press go, because when I hate boot, it
won't be low.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I won't stop.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Even when you're at the top, I'll be waiting for
a bucket in a moth hating on you. It's so
much fun. Bonnie and Clyde. I hate on the Run,
Smitti Weber Men Jensen. I hate her number one.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Y'all.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Somebody signed me. Now it's time for roll credits, Eves.
Who or what would you like to give credit to
this week?
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I would like to give credit to Katie for him
impeccable wrapping skills that she has been developing and honing
since we were in middle school. Yes, making raps together.
I am so proud of you, Katie. Thank you. Who
would you like to give credit to today?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I would like to give credit to soup. Homemade soup
is good. You know what I'm saying. I love making
homemade soup for other people. I was under the imperson
that homemade soup was like inferior at one point. I
think because we grew up in a very manufactured tie yeah,
very nineties, and you want to go to McDonald's, very soup,
can get that chili, But the homemade soup is where
(33:24):
it's at.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
And on that note, we'll link to the songs we
mentioned today in the show notes for this episode at
on Theme dot Show. We'll be back next episode.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
See You.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us
an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head
to on Theme dot Show to check out the sh
(34:00):
for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather Friends.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Media haters get a bad rap, and for good reason.
(00:25):
They demean, ridicule, and well hate, but there are oftentimes
a catalysts in many of the black storytellers we know
and love origin stories. This week's episode, I'd like to
thank my haters.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm Katie and I'm Eves, And in this episode we'll
discuss hater's place in the black storytelling ecosystem. We hear
about haters and songs, memoirs, acceptance speeches and the like.
It's possible that without haters we would only have a
fraction of the black stories that we have today. You
(00:58):
know what they say, No, Katie, what do they say?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hater's gone hate? Okay, hate, hose ain't happy and happy
hose ain't hating. There'll always be haters, that's the way
it is. Hated. Niggas marry hater bitchesn't have hater kids.
That's enough, Katie, Okay, we get it. They say a
lot about haters, a hell of a whole lot, like
for a group that is so widely disdained, they always
get shouted out. And as a hater myself, I think
(01:24):
it's time, we look at haters for what they truly are.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
And what is that?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Muses?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Okay, muses, that's very flattering, And you know what, it
absolutely is an art form and black folks have taken
full advantage of its storytelling power.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Everything in storytelling does not have to be positive. Haters
are storytellers too, and they inspire a lot of storytelling too.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
True, true, But I'd say a hater is someone who
is always looking at the negative, quick with critiques, slow
with compliments, most likely because they're jealous of whatever or
whomever there hat.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Okay, that's not a very good description of somebody and
you identify as.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
That, Yeah, I mean not all the time, but I
definitely can go there, and I think everybody does. But
I'm just self aware enough to admit it. I'd be
hating shit, Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I like how you flip that on his head. You're
self aware, Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I mean I'm talking petty stuff like I'm not talking
about hate cryings or white supremacy or cyberbully and I
ain't into all that.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And we're also not talking about people who offer criticism
from a genuine place right exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
No one's above constructive criticism. That's not hating.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Okay, good, I'm glad we're setting some boundaries around this.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I'm a hater, but I'm Rickory. Shit, dude, you have
an instance of being hated one.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
It takes a certain amount of bravado to say that somebody,
there is a person alive in this world who even
wants to hate on me or has a reason to,
but so humbful. Look, I guess this is how we're different.
And no, I'm just kidding. But I did think about it,
and I thought about a moment that I was very
(03:10):
annoyed by, and I didn't understand why it seemed like
someone had animosity toward me. And this person was older
than me, and this person was in a position of
power because they were one of my professors in college,
I thought that I did finding class, and according to
the grade that I got in that class, which was
an A, I thought the professor thought I did find
(03:31):
in class. But at the school, you could go and
see comments that your professor's left about you, and I'm
looking through the comments, and I remember getting to the
specific professor's comments and it was a total one eighty
from the experience that I had in class she and
I were cool. We had no beef whatsoever, Like I
(03:51):
would even even like she's complimented me in certain instances.
I go look through her comments. She says stuff about
me and like she was a partier. She would always
come to class late. That was not true at all.
You know how I am about school. I came to
class one time every class.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I'm not So she was lying.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Like she was no, not low key, she was lying.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So what do you chalk that up to jealousy envy?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Because like, what else would it be from a person
who is literally twice my age?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So she saw you like a young artist like out here,
like on the precipice of life, and she was hating.
She was jealous because that had passed for her?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Or I mean, I don't want to guess, because my
guess is as good as yours, and I to this
day am confused.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Well, that falls into the old hater trope.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Excuse me? You have tropes here?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Oh? Absolutely, you really have thought deeply about this. I know,
why would a hater not think about Hayden? I actually
made my own official, unofficial list of hater tropes, and
you'll get to decide whether you all into any of
these categories. After the break, all right.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
We're back, and I for one am ready to crack
open your hater's handbook. So let's get into these tropes. First.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
There's the classic motivation trope where the hater hates, which
motivates the hate t to prove them wrong, and when
the hat eventually succeeds, the hat t turns around to
taunt the hater with their success.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Okay, that's very intricate. I must say also that I
love the term hat t.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, I think you might have coined this. Yeah, don't
try to take my stuff, y'all. So we see the
motivation trope and tis aptly named motivation.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I honestly, Katie, I do feel like it's a little
bit spiritual and it feels kind of Buddhist in a way,
like I did some Buddhist study and I continue to
do so. It is to me relevant to this idea
of tolerance that does come up in Buddhist sutras. So
the idea of letting your haters be your motivators is
(06:21):
it can be viewed from like a deeper lens. I
feel like where you're saying that there are people who
you know are in your life that are going to
cause you pain. You know that there are people who
are going to say some stuff about you that you
don't like, and that's going to be coming from them,
and that doesn't have anything to do with you. And indeed,
you can use that as fuel on the fire. You
(06:45):
are practicing tolerance in that way. And of course I
want to say here to be very clear about it,
that I'm not talking about abusive situations in any way.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
N'civing and a Buddha philosopher.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I mean, I maybe wouldn't go that far because he
has a whole lived life, but parts of it. And
for this song and this idea of hating the songs
and the lyrics in the song kind of became a
monitra for the people. Yeah. It's like, instead of letting
it be a thing that festers in a wound and
(07:21):
grow and be something that you in turn choose to
reflect back to the outside world, you choose to sit
with it, acknowledge it, and then instead say, instead of
letting this thing ruin me and using it to ruin others,
I choose in this moment to make the decision to
(07:42):
let it be something that motivates me.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think in the instance of the
motivation trope, it is an example of it festering still,
even though fester has a negative connotation, Like the hater
is very much in this person's head and they're saying like, oh,
I'm want to prove them wrong. I'm gonna do this.
It's a lot of external what's the word, like external
(08:10):
locus of control A little bit, I would say, okay,
because it's not like it's just in you, like I
want to be successful because just because that's in me,
it's like this person did me wrong and I'm going
to prove them wrong. Right, That's how I see the
motivation trope. Huh. And we see it. We see it
a lot. There's there's so many examples of that, and
(08:33):
it's like, well, if this hater never came around, would
you just be like right twiddling your thumbs.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Hmm. Yeah. I think that's a very interesting point because
from that comes this idea of like, what's the value
judgment between external factors weighing on you versus internal factors
weighing on you? And it's one better than the other.
So I see what you're saying, because in one way,
it can be the very opposite of something that's conscious
and mindful and thoughtful, because you're only doing it to
(09:02):
spite somebody else or to prove something to somebody else,
versus it being something that you would do without any
sort of outside sway or influence. And I think that's
an interesting conversation, but I don't necessarily think that that
negates the idea that it could be conscious, because we
live in a world right we have to interface with
(09:25):
other people and we have to choose how to respond
to them. And it's not like you can control what
other people say to you or do to you. You
can only choose how you respond. So pretty much everything
we do is a response, whether that's internal or external.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
For sure, my mom is always telling me and Katie,
you choose how you respond to me, and I'm like, well,
I'm choosing violence, and that's valid, Katie.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So next is the bad trope, and this one is
a fun one, and this one, the hater hates the
Haiti succeeds despite the hate. But in a surprise twist,
the hater tries to hop on the bandwagon. But our
Haiti has not forgotten, and our Hadi reminds the hater
(10:18):
of their initial hater ways. Okay, so we see this
in Cardi B's Bronx season. It's a really good example.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And it's secret to me just because that you stripped,
but it's so good because now they want to get
up in my pip.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So I feel like this is one that is very
prevalent in rap. So I guess it can operate in
a way that is holding a grudge and it's something
that you're not able to let go of, but it
can also be a thing where it's boundary setting. Yes,
and it's like you did this before, I don't know
you won't do this again. Is it healthy to have
you in my life? Why are you here? Because what
(10:51):
are your intentions for coming back?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Snake?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Okay? I feel like there's a lot of like childhood
fables or folk tales about like a snake that like
bites you after you help them, because it's like I
helped you, Like why would you do that? And the
snake is always like, because I'm a snake, that's what
snakes do. And it's like if a person shows you that,
(11:20):
when you down it out, you know, whatever that looks
like for you in this example, Carti says it was
her stripping or like, you know, trying to get it
out the mud and they hating on you, and then
when you did your big one, they want to be
in the in the group like, oh, yeah, I always
knew it, Like, no, you know you didn't. You would
(11:41):
actively try to make it not happen. And so I mean,
is it holding a grudge? Sure, but I feel like
that has a negative connotation. I like the boundary setting
because you already showed me who you are. And I
feel like black people love this quote. You know what
I'm gonna say, a Black people love this quote, but
it always boils down the haters on no one shows
you who they are. Believe them who they are.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Believe them, Yes, absolutely, A person says to you, I'm selfish?
Are I mean? Are I am unkind? Oh I'm crazy?
I believe them. They know themselves much better than you do.
(12:23):
And I think that applies, especially so in a case
like the one you just mention it, because it's like
you were doing this to that person when they were
having difficulties. It's easy to treat people well when they're
having a good time, when they're doing well in their
lives and you want to be in their circle exactly,
or when they can help add to your image in
some sort of way. But when you're down and out
(12:45):
and this person is hating on you and they're not
helping you out and they're not being like offering positive
reinforcement in your life, then you really just you're not
a great person. So yeah, I definitely I can see
how you would lean toward the boundary setting side, because
it can be holding a grudge, but I could see
(13:05):
how it would be more toward the other side, because
if you have a history of a certain relationship with somebody,
then you're gonna act in kind. You're going to act
as that person treated you.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Like, not letting them too close because you've seen how
they act. And I think if you like, oh, we're cool,
you'll always gonna be looking at them sideways anyway.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And that's where you lean into the whole situation of
being cordial, right, which is a weird place to be
in with people.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Girl, don't let me see a nigga out it's on site.
I ain't no cordial about it, you know what. And
this is like, this isn't this is a cousin to
another Another way of hating that I've seen is called
the controversy trope. Okay, so it's the cousin of the
(13:57):
bandwagon trope, especially in the online world. Let's say you
know another popular rapper, a popular writer. Some artists putting
out something, They're always going to be on the opposite
of what they put out, like, oh, this song is
bad or this op ed is whatever negative adjective, just
(14:17):
so that they can be in the news cycle, because
I feel like with journalism there's like a lot of
both siderism. So it's like, oh, well, you know, this
op ed talking about black lives matter, written by this
black journalist came out today and people found it really enlightening.
But this one conservative thinks that all black people should die,
(14:40):
So we have that out there too, you know what
I mean. So it's like you are like using that
person's cloud fame to elevate yourself, uh huh. And I
find it a bit disingenuous because I'm like, yeah, I
don't disagree with everything this person says, but you know
how the algorithm works, you know how the news cycles works,
so that your name could be an association with them.
(15:03):
So if you are googling Beyonce, if you're googling ton
of Hosey codes. If you're googling you know, whatever, famous person,
your name shows up in that and that starch history too.
So I feel like that's a cousin of the bandwagon, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Because at once you're attaching yourself to that person in
order to feed off of their You're parasite.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Ooh, that's that's the name parasite.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
The parasite trope.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, And that's a very of this age trope. It
feels like some of these other ones have spanned across time.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I feel like more more current.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Definitely it is, and I guess we'll see how it
continues to evolve in the future. But we should be
more self evaluatory about it, because it's so easy to
fall into these things as people who have to make
livings in this world, especially if you're a media and
you're doing online and your lifeline is kind of attached
to being.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Online, right and having an opinion.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, we're forced in these boxes. But and yet we
don't evaluate the choices that we make and the consequences
that they have, and the way that it reflects on
how we choose to talk about other people in the
world who have their own lives and their own images
to deal on their own reputations that are on the
line as well, And it's like, we're kind of damned
(16:29):
if we do, damned if we don't. We're damned if
we do morally ethically because of the things that we're
saying about this person for the click for the story,
But we're damned if we don't because we kind of
need to do that to be able to pop, to
stand out in this landscape.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
The other thing I would say is I feel like
the Haiti definitely plays into this trope the most because
I remember, you know, there's a Reverer that I used
to like, and she would be doing cool stuff and
you know, comment little positive things like oh you killing it,
go girl, love to see it, blah blah blah, and
you know, as social media is an interaction, but I
(17:07):
noticed that she would never reply to any positive comments
about her. But at what, like there could be one
hundred positive comments, let one person say something negative. She's
writing a five paragraph essay and I'm like, girl, are
you dumb? Like what do you think this is going
to do? So next time, when someone knows that they
(17:28):
want your attention, want you to respond to them. What
do you think they're going to do. They're going to
say something negative because they know that really gets under
your skin.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And it's so fulfilling cycle.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah for sure, because like I mean, I know, I'm
not going to say nothing crazy publicly about anybody, but
like some people are just like, well, I want her
to respond either way. So I'm not gonna say anything
nice because she doesn't respond to anything nice, you know.
So I feel like this trope in particular, parasites are
annoying and you want to scratch at them and pick
at them and like get off me. But I feel
(18:01):
like it just attracts more.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And that's the word.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Okay, okay, okay, this is my favorite trope. Okay are
you ready?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I'm ready.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I call it the old switch roo. So in the
old switcher root, we have a secret hater and the
secret hater only likes the hat when they're struggling, you know,
trying to make it but really not there. But when
the haiti becomes successful bounced switcheroo, the hater reveals their
(18:34):
true hater ways.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Okay, so why is this your favorite? You know?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I like the drama, the intrigue. The hater's a little steals,
probably sabotage in the Haiti, so they remain in the
muck and the mud with them.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So are you this type of hater?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
No, if I'm hating on you, you will not be in
under any illusion that we're friends. So you're safe, okay,
and you don't follow rappers personalized. But the person that
comes to mind to me for falling victim to this
trope in particular is Megan thee Stallion. She addressed the
situation with her best her ex best friend, and her
(19:13):
song ungrateful.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
If I was still and you broke in, we won't
be I feel like this is an antithesis of the
last one, because when they're down and out, everything's cool. Yeah,
And then once a person gets some fame, gets people
talking about them, is in the news, is in the press,
or they're just or they're just watching them, and they're
(19:36):
in a position that they want to be in, then
then that's when they become a hater. But they've been
a hater all along, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
It was latent.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
It was latent, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So I think if the person never became successful, you
would never see that.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Okay, okay, oh that is that's a stressful way to
be That's a stressful way to live as a person
because that means that you're like for somebody is disingenuine
the whole time. But also like, let people be successful
because there's only so much room in life to do things,
(20:09):
and like so few of us are going to be successful.
I guess in like grand or larger than life ways.
So I don't know, I don't like this one KB.
This is this one bothers me?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, and that said it's my favorite. Yeah. I think
it's the thing about proximity. You know, maybe they aren't
self aware enough to know that they were going to
have this reaction, but because of the proximity, it's like
we're friends, Damn, we like the same beach, Like why
not me?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
You know what I'm saying. So it's like, for in
Megan's case, her friend who I believe she's known since
at least college, you know, this girl wrote a distrack,
a rap distract to began this stallion. So it's clearly
you're like, oh, I could do it, she do I
can rap too. It was terrible you're not Megan, sweetie. Embarrassing,
(21:01):
so embarrassing, But it's like the why not me? And
because of the proximity, it's like, even because I feel
like haters at the core, it's always why not me?
But because you know that person that switcher rough happens
that you might not see coming as the hater.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
See. The only thing I will push back on is
I wouldn't say across the board, it's always a why
not me? I think you're giving humanity a little too
much credit and saying that it's probably always why not me?
Because I think sometimes people just want to see the
world burn. They just don't they don't care. It enlivens
them to release this hate and energy. How do you
(21:43):
feel about this trope? Like do you think that it
is one that is prevalent in our time right now?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah? I mean, and even what you said about like
our lives are sure and like not all of us
are gonna be successful in like these really grandiose ways.
I think it doesn't even have to be grandiose. I
think I could get a fucking new a new Honda Civic.
IM just don't like to too.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
What can be riding down the street and you get to
a red light and they're looking at you real say, wait,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
It doesn't have to be grandiose. It could just be like, dang,
like she she got a new job before I did.
I can't believe that she. I don't know, she got
on a cute outfit and I don't. You know what
I'm saying. It really doesn't have to be grandiose. It's like,
it's it's levels to this, and I feel like this
trope falls on every level. But I do think it's
(22:45):
the proximity and the friendship or even maybe like a
familial relationship where you can see this a lot of
the times because people they grow up seeing you a
certain way and they want it's comfortable for you. Be
like that's her, I know her, she's like this. But
then when it's such a when you see a change,
it's like that makes me a little uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, what a sad way to walk through life. I'm
sorry to these people. Sorry to that man. Okay, So
I noticed that all of your examples came from songs,
specifically a rap songs. So are rappers getting hated on disproportionately?
Is this like a systemic issue or something.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I noticed that too, and I don't think so. We
definitely have some R and B hater bombs like Dustney's
Child So Good, where Beyonce says this is for them
haters that said we wouldn't make it. Now we're doing
platinum and now y'all can't take it. For all the
people around us, it's been negative. Look at us, now,
see how we live.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
That sounds like it fits into the motivation trope.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Ah, yes, young guys happened. Indeed, I learned quickly. But
I do think the nature of hip hop, the bravado,
the grit, lends itself to this theme. I'm sure blue
singers were getting hated on too, but because of what
blues is as a genre, they probably felt more defeated
after the interaction, like Buddy Guy talking about I can't
(24:06):
win because I don't have a thing to lose, Like uhuh.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I'd be surprised to hear a rapper admit.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
That it ain't gonna happen if they ain't won, the
story ain't done in the facts.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I do think the hater is a fruitful storytelling device, though,
like all good stories, have some sort of conflict and
when you're talking about a hater, the conflict is central,
and it gives the audience clear heroes versus villains.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And haters get the stories we tell ourselves structure and
meaning interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Can you elaborate on that?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Like I used to find myself assigning meaning to the
bad things that happened to me, Like this had to
happen so I'd have a reason to go so hard
and succeed. A lot of the stories we consume teach
us that life cannot be easy, and not only are
hardships inevitable, they're necessary. So I think haters are a
good plug in for an obstacle on the way to greatness.
(25:00):
Without haters, the story would be incomplete. Yeah at the
real Arian jokes about it in this TikTok perfectly. I'm
trying to build rapple. Let me start.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Stop helping me.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I can't get on the track and say my family
ain't never want me to make it. My family never
they always hated on me. If y'all keep looking out
for me, I need a story that what people want
to heal.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Sometimes you absolutely need a hater to tell your story.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So what are some other examples of haters outside of music,
I would assume that there's a bunch of them.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
For sure. For sure. What I found interesting was that
the more long form storytelling, the narrator usually doesn't call
the hater a hater out right, and the haters I
encountered in books and in news stories had their own tropes.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
That's interesting. So why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Probably because if you're writing a book, you're looking at
events over a longer view. So instead of saying this
person is a hater, someone writing a novel or a
memoir will tell a story and write a scene that
clearly shows, hey, we got some hatter over here.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
It's a little bit more subtle, yeah, just.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
A tad letting the audience come to their own conclusions
through witnessing actions.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And because songs are short, you got to get in
and get out. You really have to get to the point.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
And for long form haters, they seem to have more power.
The haters were more powerful, m which brings us to
our next trope, the old hater old baby more after
the break back with some old haters.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Okay, oh goodness.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Can you tell me what this trope is? By the title,
I mean, I have an idea.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Based on what the title is. Are you saying that
an old person is hating on a younger one? Ding
ding ding? Okay, so here comes to generation wars.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I have receipts, and it's just not an old person
hating on someone because they're young. It's usually an older
person who is in the same field or industry hating
on someone in a newer generation who is is in
their review, surpassing them or doing it the wrong way.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, that's kind of like that should be me or
similar to like an okay boomer situation for.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Sure, like Jesse Jackson, Oh hair, not Jesse Jackson. You
gonna maybe you roll a clip? Oh no, Well, actually
the audio isn't the best because sneaky Jesse Jackson was
(27:32):
whispering on the hot mic. But what he said was
Barack he's talking down to black people on the faith
based I want to cut his nuts off.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Oh my goodness, I forgot about that.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
The year was two thousand and eight. Barack Obama was
campaigning to become the first black president of the United States,
and what was Jesse Jackson doing?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
What?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Hey? And why what's it? Because Barack Obama was talking
down to black people, as he stated on the hot mic,
Or was really because Jesse Jackson ran to be the
first black president in eighty eight? Was it because Jackson
Jackson was looking at Barock thinking that should have been me?
Damn Jesse, And Jesse ain't the only old hater in
(28:14):
the political arena, girl, I know the political arena is
full of haters, all of them and democracy and black
Eddie god Junior writes about al Sharpton Hatten on Black
Lives Matter protesters during his eulogy of Mike Brown. Al
Sharpton through a job talking about some leaders, mad about
other leaders, more folks worried about getting on the program
(28:35):
than developing a program.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
That's a bold choice for eulogy.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
But then in a Washington Post profile he went in
talking about I heard them saying that we don't want
Sharpton taking over our movement. But my question is what movement?
Y'all ain't got nothing to take over? How comes Sharpton
sleas in march? Because I organize the march, I brought
the crowd, I got the permit. Those parts cost us
(29:00):
twenty thousand dollars. You want to run the march, fine,
get your own. Damn poor to potties, m you sound
just like a girl petty petty, very petty, very old hater.
But in both examples, the old hater has some power still,
even if it's waning. They're of a mindset that there
can only be one and it better be them.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
So I don't think you have to be old to
have that mindset, though, no.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I agree. We see this in the novel The Other
Black Girl, which looks at office politics and the need
for some black people to be the only one or
the favorite one.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
So can you give the people a little synopsis?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah? So The Other Black Girl is set in the
New York publishing industry, which is notoriously white. We have
the protagonist, Nella and the other Black Girl, Hazel. Hazel
is hired at Nella's publishing house and Nella's excited to
have a friend, but Hazel ain't there to make friends.
She scoops Nella on a manuscript and has hours long
secret meetings with Nella's boss, and of course this leads
(29:56):
to Hazel being the office favorite and it threatens to
sideline Nella's curry.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Honestly, that's relatable.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yep, Mine eyes have seen the hated land. You remember
Invisible Man when the narrator finds out mister Bledsoe wrote
him a negative letter of recommendation while pretending that he
was supporting him, which is the reason why he wasn't
able to get into college. Mister Blodsoe was white and
the unnamed narrator was black, and the narrator getting into
(30:22):
college wouldn't hurt mister Blodsoe in any way. He was
already successful white man in a whole other state. But
he still went out of his way to be a hater.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, there are some haters that be hating in truly
nonsensical ways. Mister Bloodsoe saw the narrator's light and he
tried to put it out.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I don't even know what I call that trope hating
to be hating, I guess I think if I were
to trit about haters, I do it in the fictional
long form way, because I'm no songwriter or memoirs. But
I make it a personal rule to not bring up
my haters in public forums. Like imagine you're giving an interview,
reading your wedding, or even delivering an acceptance speech, and
(31:02):
you use even a fraction of that time to address
a hater. The hater want too at that point, like
break off a piece of that award and hand it
over because they're winning in that moment. Basically, let me
tell it, and nobody did anything wrong to me. Everyone's
shown love. I like to thank God and my mom
a period.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You say that, but the people don't know you lying
about it.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, I mean they can't prove it unless someone comes
out like no, I hate her, which is what we.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
All want anywhere like that would be a moment of
drama that nobody would be mad at.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I actually hate her, immad she.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Is succeeding Katie. Where is that beat coming from?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
It's coming from the heart. You know, you rarely hear
from the haters themselves, but that changes today. You want
to know why I'm hating knowing you because I'm a hater.
That's what haters do. Duh. I'm in a Honda, you
whip been arranged. I see you out. I'm a hater
on everything. Those full eyebrows, I hate them. You're outfit.
Gonna shade it. Hate it is a game, and baby,
I'm gonna play it. Do not collect to hunt it,
(32:05):
do not press go, because when I hate boot, it
won't be low.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I won't stop.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Even when you're at the top, I'll be waiting for
a bucket in a moth hating on you. It's so
much fun. Bonnie and Clyde. I hate on the Run,
Smitti Weber Men Jensen. I hate her number one.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Y'all.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Somebody signed me. Now it's time for roll credits, Eves.
Who or what would you like to give credit to
this week?
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I would like to give credit to Katie for him
impeccable wrapping skills that she has been developing and honing
since we were in middle school. Yes, making raps together.
I am so proud of you, Katie. Thank you. Who
would you like to give credit to today?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I would like to give credit to soup. Homemade soup
is good. You know what I'm saying. I love making
homemade soup for other people. I was under the imperson
that homemade soup was like inferior at one point. I
think because we grew up in a very manufactured tie yeah,
very nineties, and you want to go to McDonald's, very soup,
can get that chili, But the homemade soup is where
(33:24):
it's at.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
And on that note, we'll link to the songs we
mentioned today in the show notes for this episode at
on Theme dot Show. We'll be back next episode.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
See You.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us
an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head
to on Theme dot Show to check out the sh
(34:00):
for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.