March 14, 2024 • 36 mins
What happens when a writer’s words are read for the last time? If they’re lucky, curious readers make sure that never happens. And if they’re blessed and highly favored, their readers spread the gospel far and wide. Today, Katie and Yves discuss Alice Walker’s search for Zora Neale Hurston and speak with Michael A. Gonzales, a writer who rediscovered Diane Oliver’s writing in a little-known anthology. And the rest, as they say, is literary history.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You Are Beef Today. Zor Nolhurston is a household name
for the average booklover.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Doubly so for the average black book lover.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
But that wasn't the case in the nineteen seventies when
Alice Walker rediscovered the deceased writer's elusive works. Despite being
the most widely published Black woman author of the nineteen
thirties Harlem Renaissance, when Hirston died in nineteen sixties, her
stories and books had gone out of print.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
And if you listened to our previous episode, which one
of y'all want Beef, you'll recall that Zora's beef's with W. E. B.
Du Boyce, Richard Wright, and others led to her fall
from literary fame and into literary obscurity.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
You may also recall her beefing with her Frenemie Langston
Hughes over the play meal Bone, despite Zora never speaking
to him again. Langston included Hurston's story The Gilded Six
Bits in an anthology title The Best Short Stories by
Black Writers. Alice Walker also had a short story in
that collection, call to Hell with Dying, but Several years later,
a neighbor let Alice Walker their eyes were watching God,
(01:19):
and then Walker's journey to unearthed Zorra began. The young
Walker began studying Heurston's life in writing, and in nineteen
seventy three, she found herself knee high in grasses and
weeds in Fort Pierce, Florida's Garden of Heavenly Rest, searching
for Hurston's unmarked grave. In a two thousand and four
MPR interview, Walker described calling out to Zorra to find
(01:39):
the writer's resting place. I actually started to call to
her to Zorra, she remembers, and I just kind of
stepped into this hole, which was the only thing that
looked like a grave in the area. Walker took it
upon herself to buy Zora a headstone and inscribed it
a Genius of the South. Walker wrote about looking for
Zorra in a Miss magazine article titled in Search of
zor Or Neil Hurston. The article sparked a renewed interest
(02:02):
in Zora Neil Hurston and her writing. Later, Walker edited
A Hurston Reader, taking its title from a Hurston quote,
I love myself when I am laughing and then again
when I'm looking mean and impressive.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I shuddered to think about what would have happened to
Zora's story and writing if Alice Walker hadn't taken it
upon herself to go looking.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Now we have Zora's novels like Their Eyes Were Watching God, Moses,
Man of the Mountain, and Jonahs Gordvine. We have Zora's
folk tales and short stories like every Time Got to
Confess and Mules and Men, and her autobiography Desk Tracks
on a Road In short. We have Zora. We still
have soa.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
My name is Zora Neil Herston. This song the call
shove it Over, and it's the line in rhythm, pretty gentle.
To distribute it all over Florida where I got you
you land noise. I'm going to spread the news about
the Florida boy shove it all. Oh wow, Hey, you'll
(03:02):
catch a line a shack.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
A like a lack a la like a like a like.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I'm Katie and I'm Eve's today's episode Literary Detectives.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
After the break, we'll take a look at another black
woman writer whose writing and story went out of print
after her death in nineteen sixty six. Then we'll speak
with Michael Gonzalez, the curious reader and intrepid writer who
resurfaced that writer's short stories in the early twenty twenties.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
That mystery writer we tease before the break, it's Diane
Oliver Eves. Do you remember the first time you heard
of her? Honest, it was really recently same. I didn't
learn about her in school or even as a bookstore owner.
I found out about her in twenty twenty two, when
Michael wrote about her in The Bitter Southerner. I was
fascinated by Diane, a twenty two year old writer whose
(04:13):
life was tragically cut short by a motorcycle crash in
nineteen sixty six. I was also fascinated by her stories,
which are mostly about the horrors of racism and black
communities in suburban America. Reading her stories now, when might
place her work in the historical fiction category For a
Remember she's writing in the mid sixties. The lunch counter
and the grade school integrations and the ever present Jim
(04:35):
Crow was very current when Diane was writing these stories,
and we wouldn't be alone in not knowing Diane's work.
She was young, very talented, but still young, so when
she died, some of her short stories were published posthumously,
but they were believed to be her only remaining works.
But sometimes reality has plot twists too. Diane's family kept
(04:56):
Diane's writing in a chest for nearly sixty years, and
idot late eight new unpublished stories a positive plot twist.
We love to see it.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Of course, we want to learn more about Diane, so
let's speak with Michael Gonzalez, the writer who was the
catalyst for the renewed interest in Diane's work. Michael is
a literary essayist, music journalist, and short story scribe and,
as our luck would have it, a podcast guest. Michael,
Welcome to On Theme.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Thanks for joining us. Can you give us a brief bio?
How you describe yourself?
Speaker 4 (05:30):
I describe myself as a cultural critic. I mean, I've
been writing since I was a kid, and you know,
when i was younger, I used to write a lot
of short stories, which I'm doing again now, but for
most of my career I was writing about music and
books and television and film and that kind of stuff.
So one of my heroes, Greg Tait, used to call
(05:52):
himself a cultural critic, and I kind of adopted that.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So we have you on today because Diane Olive short
stories were recently published and you had a hand in that.
So I'm curious to know and hear you describe how
you came to find out about Diane Oliver in her writing.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Well, you know, it was kind of weird because one
of my friends, Paul Price, he and I went to
college together, and he was moving from Jersey to Florida
and he was cleaning out a historic facility and he
started sending me all kinds of old black stuff that
he had, and one of the books that he sent
me was an anthology called Rite On and Right On,
(06:33):
I believe was publishing either seventy one or seventy two,
and you know it had a bunch of people in there,
Lorraine Hansbury and Leroy Jones, and you know, I came
across this name Diane Oliver, who, out of all the
names in the book, hers was the only one that
I was unfamiliar with. So I was like, okay, well
let me check her out. I've never heard of her before.
(06:55):
And I the story that was in there was Neighbors,
which is actually the title story of the short story
collection that just came out from Grove Atlantic and I
read Neighbors. Neighbors was this short story about a family
and their little boy that is supposed to integrate a
(07:18):
Southern school during Jim Crow the following day. And it
begins with the older sister on the bus coming from
her job as a domestic thinking about the pressures of
that her little brother is going through. You know, she's
walking through the neighborhood. People are giving their support or
given their opinions one way or the other. And then
(07:39):
she comes home and you know, there's the men are
meeting in the dining room, the minister and you know,
the local men of the community, the men from the church,
and the kitchen, the women are meeting and everybody's trying
to decide if this little boy is going to go
to integrate this school the next day. And it was
(08:01):
such a real story to me because you know, when
you watch movies about civil rights, and you know, you
never really deal with the dilemma. You know, we deal
with you know, yes, this is going to happen and
you have to be strong or whatever, but you know,
there's not a lot written about, you know, what the
(08:23):
family is going through in terms of their nerves, what
the little boy might be going through in terms of
his fear. I mean, everybody's afraid. And this story was
just so real. I mean it felt like I was
in these people's homes. I mean, I you know, of course,
like everybody else had read about Jim Crow and about
(08:44):
people integrating schools, but this was the first short story
that I read that really put me in that house,
put me with those people. And after I read the book,
like I put in my essay, later on, I wanted
to know more about Diane Oliver. I'm like, who is she? Like,
how come I don't know more about her? How Come
(09:06):
she's not up there with you know, Tony Morrison or
you know any Alice Walker or any of the other
you know, black women or black writers period. And I
just started digging and looking for more of her work.
I found some of her work online. Thank god, there
is an archive of Negro Digest Slash Black World, which
(09:31):
was a magazine that Johnson Publications, the same people that
put out Ebony and Jet did. It was a black
literary magazine in the fifties and sixties and early seventies
that published some of her short stories. And so I
just started looking more and more into her work trying.
It wasn't really that much about her written at the time.
(09:54):
And so the essay that I wrote, which was published
in the in the Bit Southerner and it was called
The Short Stories and Too Short Life of Diane Oliver,
which was published in March twenty twenty two, I just basically,
you know, went with a little bit of material that
I could find and basically wrote this essay about her
(10:19):
and her stories, the few stories that I did find
through Negro digests and as well as some that were
published in anthologies that I later ordered, And you know,
I just felt so, I mean, I feel really good
that this revival of her work is happening. You know,
years ago in the seventies, Alice Walker basically brought on
(10:43):
the revival of Zoria and Neil Hurston. She found Zoria's grave,
if I'm not mistaken, which didn't even have a marker
on it. She wound up buying a gravestone for Zoria
and Neil Hurston. And she was instrumental in basic bringing
back to this woman of the Harlem Renaissance that who
(11:06):
had kind of faded away. And so a small part
of me felt the same way with Diane Oliver. I
mean I kind of claimed her as my own because
prior to my essay, nobody was talking about her. I
was basically turning on all these different black writers to
(11:27):
Diane Oliver's work, and so it felt I mean, it
just felt really good. It just felt really good. And
you know, I'm just so proud of where it's going.
I feel a sense of pride that this is happening.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It seems like there's tradition of black writers making sure
that other black writers do not fall into obscurity or
that their work is seen one more time, one more time,
one more time. And I was wondering, do you feel
like you're a part of that tradition or what do
you How do you that tradition of rediscovering and then
(12:03):
amplifying not just keeping it to yourself, but making sure
that as many people as possible. No, kind of like
Alice Walker did, was Zora Nelhurston.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Well, a small part of me kind of took that
as a mission, maybe about ten years ago, like in
twenty fourteen. You know, one of the things, I mean,
I love black writing. I love black writers, but I
also you know, would visit a lot of bookstores and
it seemed to me, like, I think I got frustrated
(12:34):
with the beats. I mean, as much as I love
Jack Kerouac and William Burrows, and I'm like, how many
more editions of their work do we need? You know
what I mean. I'm like, you know, there are so
many black writers who put out one or two books
in the seventies and just basically disappeared. Nobody has heard
about these people. And you know, I kind of just
(12:55):
took it on myself to start writing about these rights.
I did an essay on a Chicago writer named Ronald o'
fair and he wrote a book called Hog Butcher, which
later on was made into a movie called Cornbret Earl
of Me. And it basically was about a teenage kid
(13:17):
in Chicago who is shot by a policeman. And this
guy is like the hero of the neighborhood. He's mistaken
for a thief and he's killed. But I wanted to
know who was Ronald Fair, and so I started doing
some research, you know, on who this guy was. I mean,
(13:38):
Black Expectation films is something that I've written about extensively.
A guy I grew up in the seventies during the
Black Expectation period. I didn't know that Corporate Early in
Me was based on this black Man's book. So when
I discovered that, I just started digging into his autobiography
finding what I could find. You know, thank God for
(13:59):
the Internet. But I also, you know, started going to
the libraries more often. I had to actually stop going
to the library, you know, because now, I mean, I
love libraries, but I don't like to go as much
as I used to because they're not the same. They're
not quiet, you know. I used to go there to
(14:25):
have a sanctuary that it's like a recsenter or something,
you know. But I did start going to the library
again to do research because there's a lot of books
that you can't find online or you know, even if
you could order them from Amazon, they're like, you know,
sixty dollars. I'm not paying sixty dollars just to read
(14:45):
the section of a book, right, So you know, it
sent me to the library again. In twenty fourteen, I
was living in Philadelphia, and then later on I moved
to Baltimore, And you know, when you tell librarians were
you're doing, you know, I would get into some conversations.
They were just so helpful, and I can't give enough
(15:07):
props to the librarians in Philadelphia and in Baltimore who
just was you know, would go out of their way
to help me with these columns, I mean with these articles.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Rather, did you find that in your research process you
ran into anybody who had an intense interest in Diane Oliver,
like somebody that you didn't seek out who you knew
had that interest?
Speaker 4 (15:29):
None? Nobody. I mean I did find and I can't
remember her name of him, but I found a woman
that was in uh the Iowa Writers' Workshop with her.
She had written a little essay in that appeared in
a magazine called The Brooklyn Rail and she had written
(15:51):
a little bit about Diane Oliver, and so I, you know,
reached out to her. But other than not know, I mean,
it was almost like she didn't exist. And to this day,
I don't know why. You know, I discovered her work
in different anthologies that you know, came out through the
(16:12):
seventies and eighties, and I just don't know why no one,
you know, attached themselves or looked into her. I mean,
you know, sometimes with these anthologies, you know, people look
at them and they read them or whatever, but you know,
other than that, they're just throw them back on the pile,
and that's it. I just had a general curiosity, and
(16:36):
you know, as a I don't know, I mean, I
don't want to call myself like a literary detective or anything,
but I just wanted. I just wanted to know more,
you know, and so I just found what I could
find them. Nego Digests and Jet were the only ones
who actually did obituaries on her. From what I understand,
(16:58):
she was supposed to graduate in June of nineteen sixty
six and then she was going to go to Chicago
to work for Johnson Publications. But I love, you know,
finding some of this stuff on Google Books. I mean,
Google Books is such a great research you know, a
research guide, as is sometimes the Internet Archive, where I
(17:21):
could find different books and different things like that. I
was writing a column for Catapult called the Blacklist, which
was basically about out of print black writers, and so
I think that was part of you know, I had
already started on that mission. I only did six of
(17:42):
them for Catapult because my editor got a promotion and
I didn't really want to work with another editor, so
I stopped doing that. But you know, it didn't stop
my curiosity in you know, unveiling or discovering or rediscovering
other these you know, black writers.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, I love your Catapult column and you went on
to continue to write about other authors for other publications.
Why was that exploration and examination and discovery and rediscovery
important to you?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I love writers, I love writing. I love you know,
various styles. I love you know, the era of the
you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, the writers that came out
of that era. And you know, even though Diane Oliver
was the MFA candidate, you know, most of the writers
(18:40):
that came out of those periods didn't go through the
same kind of MFA programs. They were like writing out
of experience and you know, who knows, Like they might
have been day laborers or whatever. People had different kind
of jobs and different kind of career paths. And you know,
(19:02):
I've just always been curious about who these writers are,
Like I was saying before, you know, I see a
lot of white writers who you know, they are constantly
in print, People are constantly writing about their work. There's
no shortage of essays or you know, books about these writers.
And a part of me was just like, how come
(19:25):
we don't have that? How come you know, people aren't
curious about the black writers. I mean, you know, there
are a lot of black writers that people do are
curious about, you know, who stay in print, like you
know Tony Morrison or Tony cable Bar or you know
Alice Walker. But you know, I wanted to know more
about the other people as well. The first person that
(19:47):
I wrote about was Who's a guy who's a friend
of mine named Darius James who wrote this crazy book
that came out in the nineties called Negrophobia. And if
you haven't read Negrophobia, please do. I mean it's one
of the most bizarro books ever. I don't know if
my essay had anything to do with it, but within
(20:09):
months of me writing about his book was reprinted. And
so there have been a couple of writers that I've
written about, Neddie Jones being one who wrote a book
called Fishtails. I wrote about Fishtails for long Reads. It
was an essay called Beautiful Women Ugly Scenes because which
(20:31):
I actually stole from a book from you, but I
always loved that title. And Eddy was a writer that
I found. You know, my late girlfriend she loved Neddie
Jones and she used to talk about this book Fishtails
and I actually bought it for her, but I never
(20:53):
read it. I bought it for her in the nineties,
but I never read it myself, and that when I
finally read it, I was like, wait, this book is wow.
Like she was just like, you know, drinking and talking
mad and I just loved her for you know, it
took the book took place in New York and Detroit.
(21:13):
Neddie is from Detroit originally, and I discovered that one
of my friends was friends with Nettie and I found
her like that, and you know, it's been that kind
of thing. I mean. Charlotte Carter was another one that
I wrote about who She was a black crime writer
(21:35):
in the in the nineties who put out a trilogy
of books about a black woman. She was like an
amateur detective. But they were really good books and I
really enjoyed reading them, and so I wrote about her,
and she wound up getting her books came back into print.
(21:55):
But you know, one thing, and I guess maybe it's
my ego so times, but you know, these books come
back into print the way he ever says, oh well,
you know, you know, Michael Gonzales is the reason that
these books are back and for everybody acts like they
were there was that we discovered it. I mean, not
the writers themselves. I mean I've had the writers reach
out to me and thank me and whatever. I mean.
(22:17):
You know, I'm a simple guy. I don't need awards everything,
just you know, recognition.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
What's a respect? Michael's names, props, you know what we
you give me your props because I feel like you
truly have the magic touch with this. Because I remember
seeing that article in twenty twenty two and then hearing
that the book was coming out in twenty twenty four,
knowing how slow publishing is, I was like, oh, y'all
fast tracked this, like y'all really wanted this out after
(22:44):
reading Michael's article. And one of the things about Diane
Oliver's writing, especially in this collection, it's very of the
time she was in in the time she was writing,
which is the sixties. So what do you think it
is about her writing that's resonating with people in twenty
twenty four? It being about Jim Crow era situations.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
I agree with you, and I don't agree with you
because some of the stories just have like a gothic
kind of feel to me, Like that story meant Julip's
not served here that is. I love that story. I
love it. It's so stunning.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
When I started feeling the twist coming, I was like, oh, am,
I right, But.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
You know I think I mean, especially with the current
climate or race, it's like, I mean, who doesn't feel like,
you know, racism is alive and well in America. I mean,
it's never gone away. Sometimes it might hide out for
a little while, but you know, affirmative actions being has
(23:48):
been taken away. You know, we see what the Santus
is doing in Florida. You know, now it looks like,
you know, God forbid that Trump is going to get
back into the White House, and we know what he's
all about. I mean, I think black people and you know,
are realized that, you know, these things can change it
(24:11):
any time, you know. I mean I used to joke
with a friend of mine and be like, yeah, we're
gonna wake up one day. They're going to be like,
you know, slavery started back, you know, and it's like,
you know, I say that as a joke, but it's
not funny, you know. I mean, we don't know what's
going to happen with these people. You know, the people
in the Supreme Court, you know, the public officials. I mean,
(24:36):
these people are just blatant. They don't care that we
know that they're racist. I mean, at least years ago
people would try to hide it a little bit. They
don't care. They you know, they're they're not for us.
And you know, I think you know people who are
(24:57):
of color in our allies. You know, we realized that.
And these stories, you know, I just hopefully they could
be a warning or you know, a foretelling of what
could happen.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
More with Michael Gonzalez. After this break, I was thinking
about what you said earlier about how much her stories
resonated with you, and they were unlike any other stories
that you read before. And I'm just like, I know
(25:32):
you read a lot of stories of that era, and
for her stories to stick out to you is very fascinating.
And the idea that their interiorized were something that you
could understand more through her writing. Do you have any
insight as to why her writing was that way? What
was it about her life or her practice that got
her to that point with her craft?
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Well, she was raised as Charlotte, North Carolina, so you know,
considering that she was in school, I don't know exactly
what you she was born, but considering that she was
in school in the in sixty six, you know, we
can just assume that, you know, being in Charlotte, her
parents were educator. She grew up middle class, but you know,
(26:14):
there was still Jim Crow in the South during those years.
You know, she was a young woman who, you know,
from what I understand, was a big reader and then
she started writing, and she was reading stuff at a
young age. You know, she would go to the library
and get stacks of books and you know, sit in
her room, and then she decided that she wanted to
(26:34):
write her own stories. I think by the time she
got into college and had certain teachers kind of guiding her,
and then getting into the Iowa Writers Program. I'm not
sure how difficult that was at the time, but you know,
it seems to me like she she just had this
vision of she knew what she wanted to do from
(26:57):
the time she was young. She won a contest from
Mademoiselle magazine and spent the summer in New York working,
I believe for the literary because Mademoiselle published a lot
of literary short stories during that era, and you know,
it was one of these internships that Joe Diddion had
(27:21):
at one time, Sylvia Plath had that internship at one time.
When I'm reading these stories, it doesn't say, oh, she
was the first black to do this, or she was
the first black to do that. But in my mind,
I believe she had to be. You know, I don't
know how many black writers, young black writers were trying
out for to get this Mademoiselle internship and win these
(27:44):
contests and you know, to become a part of the
Iowa Writers you know, MFA program. But she was also
very aware of her blackness. I mean, she wasn't like
trying to right color out of the equation. All of
her stories, whether they dealt with race directly or prejudice
(28:09):
directly or whatever, you're aware that these characters are black people.
From what I understand, I mean, they've sold the I mean,
the book has been sold all over the world. You know,
it came out in the US and England the same day,
but you know it's also been sold in other European
countries and stuff. And from what I understand from the
(28:29):
sister or you know, I mean I haven't spoken to
her myself, but from the interviews that she's given there
are more stories in this chest, so I guess, you know,
once they decide what they're going to do, I mean,
hopefully there'll be enough for second volume or whatever. You know.
I mean, I think we're going to see. I mean,
(28:50):
considering all the writing that's being done on Diane Oliver
right now, I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, somebody
buys the book and they start making Netflix a Prime
or whatever movies from these.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I can definitely see.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
I mean, you know, I mean, if like you know
Calson Whitehead, and you know Victor Laval or whoever, all
these other writers exactly exactly, and I can see it
being done. You know, some of those stories, I mean,
they're so rich, they're almost like feature films, you know.
I mean, so I'm you know, I'm curious to see
(29:24):
what happens next.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah. And as someone who considers himself a literary detective,
what tips would you give to writers or researchers looking
to explore lesser known literary figures like Diane Oliver essay?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
I said, I was guided by spirits in a way.
I felt like she guided me to to who she was.
You know, I'm not trying to say that in a
way to be like, oh like so you know, like
on some mojo kind of thing. But you know, I
I would just tell people to try to, you know,
(30:03):
look up. Uh. You know when when you find these anthologies,
whether or not it's like a Norton anthology or this
one or that one, you know, if you find writers
that you're unfamiliar with, and then I have people, I
have friends who turned me on to different stuff because
(30:23):
they know that I'm you know that this is an
interest to me. So that's basically how I discover a
lot of stuff. I mean through conversations with writers and
just through you know, looking at different collections and stuff
and use bookstores. Use bookstores to me is a treasure.
And I don't go as much as I used to,
(30:47):
but you know, I love you know those you know,
books that are damn near falling apart. You know, the
pages are turning, yell, the type maybe a little bit,
but you know, you find all kinds of gold in
these books.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Absolutely. It sounds like being out in the community and
talking to people is really a way to find these
lesser known authors too, because like you said, your friends
put you onto it. Going out to use bookstores like
being there, being present, being in conversation with people, You'll
find these hidden gyms that you otherwise wouldn't if you
were just off to yourself.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
I have a tendency to read a lot, and I
also have a tendency to buy a lot of books
that I may not even get you in a you know,
it may be a year or so. So when Paul
said me that right on book, I don't know what
made me like just start reading it immediately.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
But you know, it was those spirit guys exactly.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
And I'm not even joking with that. I have had
some weird experiences, and you know, later on, my mother
was telling me how my grandmother was my great great
grandmother really was a conjured woman in the in Virginia,
and I was like, maybe I got some of those
spirits in me, because you know, I've had some weird
(32:14):
experiences that turned out to be really you know, good experiences,
and you know went on to you know, write about
different things that happened because of these spirits. So thank
you spirits, Thank you spirits.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
So now it is time for role credits, the segment
where we give credit to a person, place, or thing
we encountered during the week, and we have Michael joining us.
But first, Eves, who are what would you like to
give credit to? This week?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I like to give credit to the champions and mentors
who help us along our paths our journeys. I was
thinking about Diane Oliver and how there were some people
in her story, like teachers, who encouraged her to keep writing,
and so times they gave her advice that she didn't
necessarily follow. And I think it's really nice to have
those people there for you who you know have wisdom
(33:10):
and have knowledge who can pass that along to you,
and you know what you can take and what you
don't want to take from them. So I want to
give credit to our champions and mentors of writing. They
have helped me a lot in my path and I'm
thankful for them.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Michael, who are what would you like to give credit to?
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Well? I would like to give credit to one of
the writers who is one of my mentors who continuously
helps me out. His name is Barry Michael Cooper. Barry
started out as a journalist. He's a well known screenwriter.
He wrote New Jak City and sugar Hill and the
Folk of Rim and he's to me one of the
best writers in the world. And whenever I reach out
(33:49):
to him for help or guidance or whatever, He's always
there for me. And so right now I'm in the
middle of writing another book book that was actually written
by a white writer called The Cool World, and it
was endorsed by James Bowen when it came out in
nineteen fifty nine. It was later made into a film
(34:10):
in nineteen sixty three. And when I reached out to
Barry and said, Parry, you know, because all the Barrier
films take place in Harlem, I said, Barry, have you
heard of this book, The Cool World and the movie?
He was like, oh my god, it's such a big
influence on me. And so he was like, you know,
if you have any questions, just send them to me
and I'll answer them. And as busy as he is,
(34:31):
I sent him the questions and literally like two hours
later he sends me back to answers. So I'll give
props to him, but if you don't mind, I also
like to give props to my book word Mom, who
is still with us. She's eighty six years old and
I love her to death, and you know, she's the
reason that I started reading. My mom always read all
(34:54):
kinds of newspapers and magazines and stuff, and her name
is Franciscan Vallas. Props to her as well.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
I love that shout out to Mama's. I would like
to give credit to piggingbacking off of your shout out
to use bookstores, Michael, I want to give credit to
for Keeps Books, which is a used bookstore in Atlanta.
I hadn't been there in a while, and so I
just popped in over the weekend and she shows love
(35:24):
all the time, and it's just a really cool hangout spot.
Always good vibes when I'm there, and I always get
a really interesting book too. So shout out to four keep.
Shout out to Rosa Duffy at for Keeps. Where can
people follow you on social media?
Speaker 4 (35:39):
I'm on Facebook, Michael A. Gonzales, I'm on Twitter at
Gonzo Geo, Nzo Mike and Mike KK one word at
Gonzo Mike, and I'm also on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Michael's instagram is Big Mike.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Give one and we'll see y'all next week. And thank
you so much Michael for joining us.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Thank you, I appreciate this. This was really good. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves, jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us
an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head
to on Theme dot Show to check out the show
(36:31):
notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You Are Beef Today. Zor Nolhurston is a household name
for the average booklover.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Doubly so for the average black book lover.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
But that wasn't the case in the nineteen seventies when
Alice Walker rediscovered the deceased writer's elusive works. Despite being
the most widely published Black woman author of the nineteen
thirties Harlem Renaissance, when Hirston died in nineteen sixties, her
stories and books had gone out of print.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
And if you listened to our previous episode, which one
of y'all want Beef, you'll recall that Zora's beef's with W. E. B.
Du Boyce, Richard Wright, and others led to her fall
from literary fame and into literary obscurity.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
You may also recall her beefing with her Frenemie Langston
Hughes over the play meal Bone, despite Zora never speaking
to him again. Langston included Hurston's story The Gilded Six
Bits in an anthology title The Best Short Stories by
Black Writers. Alice Walker also had a short story in
that collection, call to Hell with Dying, but Several years later,
a neighbor let Alice Walker their eyes were watching God,
(01:19):
and then Walker's journey to unearthed Zorra began. The young
Walker began studying Heurston's life in writing, and in nineteen
seventy three, she found herself knee high in grasses and
weeds in Fort Pierce, Florida's Garden of Heavenly Rest, searching
for Hurston's unmarked grave. In a two thousand and four
MPR interview, Walker described calling out to Zorra to find
(01:39):
the writer's resting place. I actually started to call to
her to Zorra, she remembers, and I just kind of
stepped into this hole, which was the only thing that
looked like a grave in the area. Walker took it
upon herself to buy Zora a headstone and inscribed it
a Genius of the South. Walker wrote about looking for
Zorra in a Miss magazine article titled in Search of
zor Or Neil Hurston. The article sparked a renewed interest
(02:02):
in Zora Neil Hurston and her writing. Later, Walker edited
A Hurston Reader, taking its title from a Hurston quote,
I love myself when I am laughing and then again
when I'm looking mean and impressive.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I shuddered to think about what would have happened to
Zora's story and writing if Alice Walker hadn't taken it
upon herself to go looking.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Now we have Zora's novels like Their Eyes Were Watching God, Moses,
Man of the Mountain, and Jonahs Gordvine. We have Zora's
folk tales and short stories like every Time Got to
Confess and Mules and Men, and her autobiography Desk Tracks
on a Road In short. We have Zora. We still
have soa.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
My name is Zora Neil Herston. This song the call
shove it Over, and it's the line in rhythm, pretty gentle.
To distribute it all over Florida where I got you
you land noise. I'm going to spread the news about
the Florida boy shove it all. Oh wow, Hey, you'll
(03:02):
catch a line a shack.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
A like a lack a la like a like a like.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I'm Katie and I'm Eve's today's episode Literary Detectives.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
After the break, we'll take a look at another black
woman writer whose writing and story went out of print
after her death in nineteen sixty six. Then we'll speak
with Michael Gonzalez, the curious reader and intrepid writer who
resurfaced that writer's short stories in the early twenty twenties.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
That mystery writer we tease before the break, it's Diane
Oliver Eves. Do you remember the first time you heard
of her? Honest, it was really recently same. I didn't
learn about her in school or even as a bookstore owner.
I found out about her in twenty twenty two, when
Michael wrote about her in The Bitter Southerner. I was
fascinated by Diane, a twenty two year old writer whose
(04:13):
life was tragically cut short by a motorcycle crash in
nineteen sixty six. I was also fascinated by her stories,
which are mostly about the horrors of racism and black
communities in suburban America. Reading her stories now, when might
place her work in the historical fiction category For a
Remember she's writing in the mid sixties. The lunch counter
and the grade school integrations and the ever present Jim
(04:35):
Crow was very current when Diane was writing these stories,
and we wouldn't be alone in not knowing Diane's work.
She was young, very talented, but still young, so when
she died, some of her short stories were published posthumously,
but they were believed to be her only remaining works.
But sometimes reality has plot twists too. Diane's family kept
(04:56):
Diane's writing in a chest for nearly sixty years, and
idot late eight new unpublished stories a positive plot twist.
We love to see it.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Of course, we want to learn more about Diane, so
let's speak with Michael Gonzalez, the writer who was the
catalyst for the renewed interest in Diane's work. Michael is
a literary essayist, music journalist, and short story scribe and,
as our luck would have it, a podcast guest. Michael,
Welcome to On Theme.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Thanks for joining us. Can you give us a brief bio?
How you describe yourself?
Speaker 4 (05:30):
I describe myself as a cultural critic. I mean, I've
been writing since I was a kid, and you know,
when i was younger, I used to write a lot
of short stories, which I'm doing again now, but for
most of my career I was writing about music and
books and television and film and that kind of stuff.
So one of my heroes, Greg Tait, used to call
(05:52):
himself a cultural critic, and I kind of adopted that.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So we have you on today because Diane Olive short
stories were recently published and you had a hand in that.
So I'm curious to know and hear you describe how
you came to find out about Diane Oliver in her writing.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Well, you know, it was kind of weird because one
of my friends, Paul Price, he and I went to
college together, and he was moving from Jersey to Florida
and he was cleaning out a historic facility and he
started sending me all kinds of old black stuff that
he had, and one of the books that he sent
me was an anthology called Rite On and Right On,
(06:33):
I believe was publishing either seventy one or seventy two,
and you know it had a bunch of people in there,
Lorraine Hansbury and Leroy Jones, and you know, I came
across this name Diane Oliver, who, out of all the
names in the book, hers was the only one that
I was unfamiliar with. So I was like, okay, well
let me check her out. I've never heard of her before.
(06:55):
And I the story that was in there was Neighbors,
which is actually the title story of the short story
collection that just came out from Grove Atlantic and I
read Neighbors. Neighbors was this short story about a family
and their little boy that is supposed to integrate a
(07:18):
Southern school during Jim Crow the following day. And it
begins with the older sister on the bus coming from
her job as a domestic thinking about the pressures of
that her little brother is going through. You know, she's
walking through the neighborhood. People are giving their support or
given their opinions one way or the other. And then
(07:39):
she comes home and you know, there's the men are
meeting in the dining room, the minister and you know,
the local men of the community, the men from the church,
and the kitchen, the women are meeting and everybody's trying
to decide if this little boy is going to go
to integrate this school the next day. And it was
(08:01):
such a real story to me because you know, when
you watch movies about civil rights, and you know, you
never really deal with the dilemma. You know, we deal
with you know, yes, this is going to happen and
you have to be strong or whatever, but you know,
there's not a lot written about, you know, what the
(08:23):
family is going through in terms of their nerves, what
the little boy might be going through in terms of
his fear. I mean, everybody's afraid. And this story was
just so real. I mean it felt like I was
in these people's homes. I mean, I you know, of course,
like everybody else had read about Jim Crow and about
(08:44):
people integrating schools, but this was the first short story
that I read that really put me in that house,
put me with those people. And after I read the book,
like I put in my essay, later on, I wanted
to know more about Diane Oliver. I'm like, who is she? Like,
how come I don't know more about her? How Come
(09:06):
she's not up there with you know, Tony Morrison or
you know any Alice Walker or any of the other
you know, black women or black writers period. And I
just started digging and looking for more of her work.
I found some of her work online. Thank god, there
is an archive of Negro Digest Slash Black World, which
(09:31):
was a magazine that Johnson Publications, the same people that
put out Ebony and Jet did. It was a black
literary magazine in the fifties and sixties and early seventies
that published some of her short stories. And so I
just started looking more and more into her work trying.
It wasn't really that much about her written at the time.
(09:54):
And so the essay that I wrote, which was published
in the in the Bit Southerner and it was called
The Short Stories and Too Short Life of Diane Oliver,
which was published in March twenty twenty two, I just basically,
you know, went with a little bit of material that
I could find and basically wrote this essay about her
(10:19):
and her stories, the few stories that I did find
through Negro digests and as well as some that were
published in anthologies that I later ordered, And you know,
I just felt so, I mean, I feel really good
that this revival of her work is happening. You know,
years ago in the seventies, Alice Walker basically brought on
(10:43):
the revival of Zoria and Neil Hurston. She found Zoria's grave,
if I'm not mistaken, which didn't even have a marker
on it. She wound up buying a gravestone for Zoria
and Neil Hurston. And she was instrumental in basic bringing
back to this woman of the Harlem Renaissance that who
(11:06):
had kind of faded away. And so a small part
of me felt the same way with Diane Oliver. I
mean I kind of claimed her as my own because
prior to my essay, nobody was talking about her. I
was basically turning on all these different black writers to
(11:27):
Diane Oliver's work, and so it felt I mean, it
just felt really good. It just felt really good. And
you know, I'm just so proud of where it's going.
I feel a sense of pride that this is happening.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It seems like there's tradition of black writers making sure
that other black writers do not fall into obscurity or
that their work is seen one more time, one more time,
one more time. And I was wondering, do you feel
like you're a part of that tradition or what do
you How do you that tradition of rediscovering and then
(12:03):
amplifying not just keeping it to yourself, but making sure
that as many people as possible. No, kind of like
Alice Walker did, was Zora Nelhurston.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Well, a small part of me kind of took that
as a mission, maybe about ten years ago, like in
twenty fourteen. You know, one of the things, I mean,
I love black writing. I love black writers, but I
also you know, would visit a lot of bookstores and
it seemed to me, like, I think I got frustrated
(12:34):
with the beats. I mean, as much as I love
Jack Kerouac and William Burrows, and I'm like, how many
more editions of their work do we need? You know
what I mean. I'm like, you know, there are so
many black writers who put out one or two books
in the seventies and just basically disappeared. Nobody has heard
about these people. And you know, I kind of just
(12:55):
took it on myself to start writing about these rights.
I did an essay on a Chicago writer named Ronald o'
fair and he wrote a book called Hog Butcher, which
later on was made into a movie called Cornbret Earl
of Me. And it basically was about a teenage kid
(13:17):
in Chicago who is shot by a policeman. And this
guy is like the hero of the neighborhood. He's mistaken
for a thief and he's killed. But I wanted to
know who was Ronald Fair, and so I started doing
some research, you know, on who this guy was. I mean,
(13:38):
Black Expectation films is something that I've written about extensively.
A guy I grew up in the seventies during the
Black Expectation period. I didn't know that Corporate Early in
Me was based on this black Man's book. So when
I discovered that, I just started digging into his autobiography
finding what I could find. You know, thank God for
(13:59):
the Internet. But I also, you know, started going to
the libraries more often. I had to actually stop going
to the library, you know, because now, I mean, I
love libraries, but I don't like to go as much
as I used to because they're not the same. They're
not quiet, you know. I used to go there to
(14:25):
have a sanctuary that it's like a recsenter or something,
you know. But I did start going to the library
again to do research because there's a lot of books
that you can't find online or you know, even if
you could order them from Amazon, they're like, you know,
sixty dollars. I'm not paying sixty dollars just to read
(14:45):
the section of a book, right, So you know, it
sent me to the library again. In twenty fourteen, I
was living in Philadelphia, and then later on I moved
to Baltimore, And you know, when you tell librarians were
you're doing, you know, I would get into some conversations.
They were just so helpful, and I can't give enough
(15:07):
props to the librarians in Philadelphia and in Baltimore who
just was you know, would go out of their way
to help me with these columns, I mean with these articles.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Rather, did you find that in your research process you
ran into anybody who had an intense interest in Diane Oliver,
like somebody that you didn't seek out who you knew
had that interest?
Speaker 4 (15:29):
None? Nobody. I mean I did find and I can't
remember her name of him, but I found a woman
that was in uh the Iowa Writers' Workshop with her.
She had written a little essay in that appeared in
a magazine called The Brooklyn Rail and she had written
(15:51):
a little bit about Diane Oliver, and so I, you know,
reached out to her. But other than not know, I mean,
it was almost like she didn't exist. And to this day,
I don't know why. You know, I discovered her work
in different anthologies that you know, came out through the
(16:12):
seventies and eighties, and I just don't know why no one,
you know, attached themselves or looked into her. I mean,
you know, sometimes with these anthologies, you know, people look
at them and they read them or whatever, but you know,
other than that, they're just throw them back on the pile,
and that's it. I just had a general curiosity, and
(16:36):
you know, as a I don't know, I mean, I
don't want to call myself like a literary detective or anything,
but I just wanted. I just wanted to know more,
you know, and so I just found what I could
find them. Nego Digests and Jet were the only ones
who actually did obituaries on her. From what I understand,
(16:58):
she was supposed to graduate in June of nineteen sixty
six and then she was going to go to Chicago
to work for Johnson Publications. But I love, you know,
finding some of this stuff on Google Books. I mean,
Google Books is such a great research you know, a
research guide, as is sometimes the Internet Archive, where I
(17:21):
could find different books and different things like that. I
was writing a column for Catapult called the Blacklist, which
was basically about out of print black writers, and so
I think that was part of you know, I had
already started on that mission. I only did six of
(17:42):
them for Catapult because my editor got a promotion and
I didn't really want to work with another editor, so
I stopped doing that. But you know, it didn't stop
my curiosity in you know, unveiling or discovering or rediscovering
other these you know, black writers.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, I love your Catapult column and you went on
to continue to write about other authors for other publications.
Why was that exploration and examination and discovery and rediscovery
important to you?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I love writers, I love writing. I love you know,
various styles. I love you know, the era of the
you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, the writers that came out
of that era. And you know, even though Diane Oliver
was the MFA candidate, you know, most of the writers
(18:40):
that came out of those periods didn't go through the
same kind of MFA programs. They were like writing out
of experience and you know, who knows, Like they might
have been day laborers or whatever. People had different kind
of jobs and different kind of career paths. And you know,
(19:02):
I've just always been curious about who these writers are,
Like I was saying before, you know, I see a
lot of white writers who you know, they are constantly
in print, People are constantly writing about their work. There's
no shortage of essays or you know, books about these writers.
And a part of me was just like, how come
(19:25):
we don't have that? How come you know, people aren't
curious about the black writers. I mean, you know, there
are a lot of black writers that people do are
curious about, you know, who stay in print, like you
know Tony Morrison or Tony cable Bar or you know
Alice Walker. But you know, I wanted to know more
about the other people as well. The first person that
(19:47):
I wrote about was Who's a guy who's a friend
of mine named Darius James who wrote this crazy book
that came out in the nineties called Negrophobia. And if
you haven't read Negrophobia, please do. I mean it's one
of the most bizarro books ever. I don't know if
my essay had anything to do with it, but within
(20:09):
months of me writing about his book was reprinted. And
so there have been a couple of writers that I've
written about, Neddie Jones being one who wrote a book
called Fishtails. I wrote about Fishtails for long Reads. It
was an essay called Beautiful Women Ugly Scenes because which
(20:31):
I actually stole from a book from you, but I
always loved that title. And Eddy was a writer that
I found. You know, my late girlfriend she loved Neddie
Jones and she used to talk about this book Fishtails
and I actually bought it for her, but I never
(20:53):
read it. I bought it for her in the nineties,
but I never read it myself, and that when I
finally read it, I was like, wait, this book is wow.
Like she was just like, you know, drinking and talking
mad and I just loved her for you know, it
took the book took place in New York and Detroit.
(21:13):
Neddie is from Detroit originally, and I discovered that one
of my friends was friends with Nettie and I found
her like that, and you know, it's been that kind
of thing. I mean. Charlotte Carter was another one that
I wrote about who She was a black crime writer
(21:35):
in the in the nineties who put out a trilogy
of books about a black woman. She was like an
amateur detective. But they were really good books and I
really enjoyed reading them, and so I wrote about her,
and she wound up getting her books came back into print.
(21:55):
But you know, one thing, and I guess maybe it's
my ego so times, but you know, these books come
back into print the way he ever says, oh well,
you know, you know, Michael Gonzales is the reason that
these books are back and for everybody acts like they
were there was that we discovered it. I mean, not
the writers themselves. I mean I've had the writers reach
out to me and thank me and whatever. I mean.
(22:17):
You know, I'm a simple guy. I don't need awards everything,
just you know, recognition.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
What's a respect? Michael's names, props, you know what we
you give me your props because I feel like you
truly have the magic touch with this. Because I remember
seeing that article in twenty twenty two and then hearing
that the book was coming out in twenty twenty four,
knowing how slow publishing is, I was like, oh, y'all
fast tracked this, like y'all really wanted this out after
(22:44):
reading Michael's article. And one of the things about Diane
Oliver's writing, especially in this collection, it's very of the
time she was in in the time she was writing,
which is the sixties. So what do you think it
is about her writing that's resonating with people in twenty
twenty four? It being about Jim Crow era situations.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
I agree with you, and I don't agree with you
because some of the stories just have like a gothic
kind of feel to me, Like that story meant Julip's
not served here that is. I love that story. I
love it. It's so stunning.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
When I started feeling the twist coming, I was like, oh, am,
I right, But.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
You know I think I mean, especially with the current
climate or race, it's like, I mean, who doesn't feel like,
you know, racism is alive and well in America. I mean,
it's never gone away. Sometimes it might hide out for
a little while, but you know, affirmative actions being has
(23:48):
been taken away. You know, we see what the Santus
is doing in Florida. You know, now it looks like,
you know, God forbid that Trump is going to get
back into the White House, and we know what he's
all about. I mean, I think black people and you know,
are realized that, you know, these things can change it
(24:11):
any time, you know. I mean I used to joke
with a friend of mine and be like, yeah, we're
gonna wake up one day. They're going to be like,
you know, slavery started back, you know, and it's like,
you know, I say that as a joke, but it's
not funny, you know. I mean, we don't know what's
going to happen with these people. You know, the people
in the Supreme Court, you know, the public officials. I mean,
(24:36):
these people are just blatant. They don't care that we
know that they're racist. I mean, at least years ago
people would try to hide it a little bit. They
don't care. They you know, they're they're not for us.
And you know, I think you know people who are
(24:57):
of color in our allies. You know, we realized that.
And these stories, you know, I just hopefully they could
be a warning or you know, a foretelling of what
could happen.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
More with Michael Gonzalez. After this break, I was thinking
about what you said earlier about how much her stories
resonated with you, and they were unlike any other stories
that you read before. And I'm just like, I know
(25:32):
you read a lot of stories of that era, and
for her stories to stick out to you is very fascinating.
And the idea that their interiorized were something that you
could understand more through her writing. Do you have any
insight as to why her writing was that way? What
was it about her life or her practice that got
her to that point with her craft?
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Well, she was raised as Charlotte, North Carolina, so you know,
considering that she was in school, I don't know exactly
what you she was born, but considering that she was
in school in the in sixty six, you know, we
can just assume that, you know, being in Charlotte, her
parents were educator. She grew up middle class, but you know,
(26:14):
there was still Jim Crow in the South during those years.
You know, she was a young woman who, you know,
from what I understand, was a big reader and then
she started writing, and she was reading stuff at a
young age. You know, she would go to the library
and get stacks of books and you know, sit in
her room, and then she decided that she wanted to
(26:34):
write her own stories. I think by the time she
got into college and had certain teachers kind of guiding her,
and then getting into the Iowa Writers Program. I'm not
sure how difficult that was at the time, but you know,
it seems to me like she she just had this
vision of she knew what she wanted to do from
(26:57):
the time she was young. She won a contest from
Mademoiselle magazine and spent the summer in New York working,
I believe for the literary because Mademoiselle published a lot
of literary short stories during that era, and you know,
it was one of these internships that Joe Diddion had
(27:21):
at one time, Sylvia Plath had that internship at one time.
When I'm reading these stories, it doesn't say, oh, she
was the first black to do this, or she was
the first black to do that. But in my mind,
I believe she had to be. You know, I don't
know how many black writers, young black writers were trying
out for to get this Mademoiselle internship and win these
(27:44):
contests and you know, to become a part of the
Iowa Writers you know, MFA program. But she was also
very aware of her blackness. I mean, she wasn't like
trying to right color out of the equation. All of
her stories, whether they dealt with race directly or prejudice
(28:09):
directly or whatever, you're aware that these characters are black people.
From what I understand, I mean, they've sold the I mean,
the book has been sold all over the world. You know,
it came out in the US and England the same day,
but you know it's also been sold in other European
countries and stuff. And from what I understand from the
(28:29):
sister or you know, I mean I haven't spoken to
her myself, but from the interviews that she's given there
are more stories in this chest, so I guess, you know,
once they decide what they're going to do, I mean,
hopefully there'll be enough for second volume or whatever. You know.
I mean, I think we're going to see. I mean,
(28:50):
considering all the writing that's being done on Diane Oliver
right now, I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, somebody
buys the book and they start making Netflix a Prime
or whatever movies from these.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I can definitely see.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
I mean, you know, I mean, if like you know
Calson Whitehead, and you know Victor Laval or whoever, all
these other writers exactly exactly, and I can see it
being done. You know, some of those stories, I mean,
they're so rich, they're almost like feature films, you know.
I mean, so I'm you know, I'm curious to see
(29:24):
what happens next.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah. And as someone who considers himself a literary detective,
what tips would you give to writers or researchers looking
to explore lesser known literary figures like Diane Oliver essay?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
I said, I was guided by spirits in a way.
I felt like she guided me to to who she was.
You know, I'm not trying to say that in a
way to be like, oh like so you know, like
on some mojo kind of thing. But you know, I
I would just tell people to try to, you know,
(30:03):
look up. Uh. You know when when you find these anthologies,
whether or not it's like a Norton anthology or this
one or that one, you know, if you find writers
that you're unfamiliar with, and then I have people, I
have friends who turned me on to different stuff because
(30:23):
they know that I'm you know that this is an
interest to me. So that's basically how I discover a
lot of stuff. I mean through conversations with writers and
just through you know, looking at different collections and stuff
and use bookstores. Use bookstores to me is a treasure.
And I don't go as much as I used to,
(30:47):
but you know, I love you know those you know,
books that are damn near falling apart. You know, the
pages are turning, yell, the type maybe a little bit,
but you know, you find all kinds of gold in
these books.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Absolutely. It sounds like being out in the community and
talking to people is really a way to find these
lesser known authors too, because like you said, your friends
put you onto it. Going out to use bookstores like
being there, being present, being in conversation with people, You'll
find these hidden gyms that you otherwise wouldn't if you
were just off to yourself.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
I have a tendency to read a lot, and I
also have a tendency to buy a lot of books
that I may not even get you in a you know,
it may be a year or so. So when Paul
said me that right on book, I don't know what
made me like just start reading it immediately.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
But you know, it was those spirit guys exactly.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
And I'm not even joking with that. I have had
some weird experiences, and you know, later on, my mother
was telling me how my grandmother was my great great
grandmother really was a conjured woman in the in Virginia,
and I was like, maybe I got some of those
spirits in me, because you know, I've had some weird
(32:14):
experiences that turned out to be really you know, good experiences,
and you know went on to you know, write about
different things that happened because of these spirits. So thank
you spirits, Thank you spirits.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
So now it is time for role credits, the segment
where we give credit to a person, place, or thing
we encountered during the week, and we have Michael joining us.
But first, Eves, who are what would you like to
give credit to? This week?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I like to give credit to the champions and mentors
who help us along our paths our journeys. I was
thinking about Diane Oliver and how there were some people
in her story, like teachers, who encouraged her to keep writing,
and so times they gave her advice that she didn't
necessarily follow. And I think it's really nice to have
those people there for you who you know have wisdom
(33:10):
and have knowledge who can pass that along to you,
and you know what you can take and what you
don't want to take from them. So I want to
give credit to our champions and mentors of writing. They
have helped me a lot in my path and I'm
thankful for them.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Michael, who are what would you like to give credit to?
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Well? I would like to give credit to one of
the writers who is one of my mentors who continuously
helps me out. His name is Barry Michael Cooper. Barry
started out as a journalist. He's a well known screenwriter.
He wrote New Jak City and sugar Hill and the
Folk of Rim and he's to me one of the
best writers in the world. And whenever I reach out
(33:49):
to him for help or guidance or whatever, He's always
there for me. And so right now I'm in the
middle of writing another book book that was actually written
by a white writer called The Cool World, and it
was endorsed by James Bowen when it came out in
nineteen fifty nine. It was later made into a film
(34:10):
in nineteen sixty three. And when I reached out to
Barry and said, Parry, you know, because all the Barrier
films take place in Harlem, I said, Barry, have you
heard of this book, The Cool World and the movie?
He was like, oh my god, it's such a big
influence on me. And so he was like, you know,
if you have any questions, just send them to me
and I'll answer them. And as busy as he is,
(34:31):
I sent him the questions and literally like two hours
later he sends me back to answers. So I'll give
props to him, but if you don't mind, I also
like to give props to my book word Mom, who
is still with us. She's eighty six years old and
I love her to death, and you know, she's the
reason that I started reading. My mom always read all
(34:54):
kinds of newspapers and magazines and stuff, and her name
is Franciscan Vallas. Props to her as well.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
I love that shout out to Mama's. I would like
to give credit to piggingbacking off of your shout out
to use bookstores, Michael, I want to give credit to
for Keeps Books, which is a used bookstore in Atlanta.
I hadn't been there in a while, and so I
just popped in over the weekend and she shows love
(35:24):
all the time, and it's just a really cool hangout spot.
Always good vibes when I'm there, and I always get
a really interesting book too. So shout out to four keep.
Shout out to Rosa Duffy at for Keeps. Where can
people follow you on social media?
Speaker 4 (35:39):
I'm on Facebook, Michael A. Gonzales, I'm on Twitter at
Gonzo Geo, Nzo Mike and Mike KK one word at
Gonzo Mike, and I'm also on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Michael's instagram is Big Mike.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Give one and we'll see y'all next week. And thank
you so much Michael for joining us.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Thank you, I appreciate this. This was really good. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves, jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us
an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head
to on Theme dot Show to check out the show
(36:31):
notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
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